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10 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

That’s right.  It was added in 1998 for the second version of “The Gathering.”  By that time it was a nod to people who had been warching the series.

Is it on the DVDs?

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3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I doubt any script is set in stone, the producer has to roll with the punches when actresses get pregnant, the budget gets cut, actors sink into drug/drink addictions etc

You're absolutely right about that, but--while he was undeniably incredibly clever about being able to modify plots that he'd either dropped or set up with one set of circumstances and able to keep the story moving in the same direction--he had a habit of saying that the show had ALWAYS intended to do that.

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Loved Bester's Prisoner reference - "Be seeing you" complete w/ gesture! Someone w/ more knowledge than myself can confirm or deny, but I recall hearing somewhere that Koenig ad-libbed that. 

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7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Is it on the DVDs?

I believe the easily/legally available version (DVD and streaming) is the 1998 version, which contained other edits as well, including losing Londo describing Sinclair as B5's "final commander."  It also originally had a (bad) score by Stewart Copeland which was redone by Christopher Franke to match the rest of the series.  It's not available legally anywhere AFAIK.  

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11 hours ago, SVNBob said:

Plus there's the one played by Jeffrey Combs.  He's a decent and sympathetic person.

That was a great episode. Sinclair spitting out "I was on the Line!" shut that shit right down. It's like the only time he ever really said it. 

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On 5/25/2019 at 3:20 PM, ketose said:

That was added later. If someone had the original 1993 recording of the pilot movie, it wasn't there. So yeah, they were really hammering it.

On 5/25/2019 at 7:39 PM, call me ishmael said:

That’s right.  It was added in 1998 for the second version of “The Gathering.”  By that time it was a nod to people who had been warching the series.

The scene was added when JMS was allowed to re-edit the polit but the scene was shot when the pilot was shot. There were no re-shoots for the pilot re-edit. So while it was a new scene in the sense that it was added to the pilot, it had been shot and cut in the original shot.

Watching season 1 the first time through it was very clear that Sinclair was destined for something Minbari related. Delenn’s comments that “we were right about you.”, the Minbari assassin who made the comment about the hole in Sinclair’s mind. The Soul Hunters comment that Sinclair had no idea what the Minbari had planned for him. The regular references to Sinclair having a destiny. The memories he unlocked in the Sky Full of Stars and Delenn’s role in that mess. Garibaldi’s iscovery that Sincalir was the only person the Minbari would accept to lead Babylon 5.

The fact that he went on to become Valen was in no way, shape or form a surprise given how much effort and energy the Minbari put into Sinclair. I mean, it was surprising because I would not have predicted it but it 100% fit the story that was developed over time.

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3 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

The scene was added when JMS was allowed to re-edit the polit but the scene was shot when the pilot was shot. There were no re-shoots for the pilot re-edit. So while it was a new scene in the sense that it was added to the pilot, it had been shot and cut in the original shot.

The scene was shot.  The dialog was new.

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On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 6:54 AM, ganesh said:

"He's going to spend the night locking himself in the bathroom."

Shouldn't have eaten that fresh spoo. 

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 11:22 PM, Joe said:

Carmen Argenziano has passed. He was a Centauri in the episode Knives. There's a pic if you don't remember.

I didn't remember him until I saw the pic. 

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On ‎2‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 2:23 AM, AuntieMame said:

That isn't gender issues, that is straight up sexism. 

I'm so glad that I'm not the only one who hated Byron. The character and the way the actor played him was just insufferable. Worst of all because th idea of a telepath war had a lot of potential. Think of Bester using and manipulating Garibaldi and the fallout. Think of Bester training his young interns. How imagine a war for power and planets with an enemy that knew everything you were thinking. Could other races with telepaths help you develop defenses? How does espionage and intelligence work for both sides? Could a mundane hold a false thought and fool a telepath? That story would have been amazing. 

I loved Day of the Dead and I liked The Deconstruction of Falling Stars. I appreciated the homage to Canticle. 

Of course Londo and G'Kar were wonderful as we're their story arcs. I had a little trouble with Sheridan, not because I mind a hero, but because he never struggled with anything. He might as well have been named Dudley Do Right. Heroes overcome, but not without internal struggle as well as external. 

All that said, B5 remains a favorite. 

I've yet to find a person who was a fan, he's the Connor of Babylon 5. More painful still Lyta was my favourite character so I was glad to see her with more screentime yet she had to share it with Byron.

 Day of the Dead is possibly my favourite ep, for the Lochley scenes alone.  

Edited by Joe Hellandback
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On ‎2‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 3:51 PM, ProfCrash said:

It was pretty much everyone. I ran a bulletin board during that period of time and no one liked Byron. There was a lot about season 5 that sat wrong with people but Byron was by far the one thing everyone agreed on. He was awful and we were hoping that the willow tree was cut down far sooner then it was. And then there was the singing. Your telepaths, send your song telepathically and don't make me listen to it.

That must have been in the very early days of internet fandom? I didn't go online until the 2000s, must have missed the party. 

On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 3:57 AM, ketose said:

The Narn were set up as the aggressors in the first 2 seasons. They beat back the Centauri, adapted their technology and built up a force to rival the Centauri. The Centauri were afraid of engagements they might not win, their empire was contracting and they were trying to guide Earth and reflect themselves in that glory. When Morden showed up, Londo felt like his empire was fading away, just like himself.

I would almost equate the Narn to the Americans, rather than the native people of America. Americans broke free of British rule and became an even bigger power. The British Empire then shrunk to a shadow of its former self. That's what probably would have happened to Centauri had Londo not met the Shadows. JMS tried to keep Londo on the knife's edge, showing how he could be taken in early on and how the Republic made the deadliest deals with the Shadows. Still, Londo was forced to rule over a destroyed plant by the Drakh, cruel but fitting punishment.

Interesting take and as I'm rewatching the early seasons very true in terms of the Narn 

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On ‎2‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 3:43 AM, ganesh said:

Londo's story was the story of Babylon 5 as far as I've seen. 

The fate of Londo and Gkar, they're intertwined 

On ‎3‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 11:58 PM, starri said:

Man, Galen was a character I found only slightly less annoying than Byron.

The Clarke's Third Law stuff isn't the part that I have difficulty swallowing.  There's something about them strutting around the galaxy cosplaying as Benedictine monks that I find harder to take.  To my mind, that doesn't really fit with the rest of the B5 universe.  It's rather like picturing Captain Picard coming to the bridge of the Enterprise to find that his new first office is a wizard.  Jedi and Sith fit Star Wars.  I just don't think their equivalents fit into B5.

But we had him for fewer eps?

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On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 1:46 PM, starri said:

You're absolutely right about that, but--while he was undeniably incredibly clever about being able to modify plots that he'd either dropped or set up with one set of circumstances and able to keep the story moving in the same direction--he had a habit of saying that the show had ALWAYS intended to do that.

Probably a mishmash, like Quint's speech in Jaws, probably he can't even remember all those late night last minute rewrites. 

On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 3:33 PM, Loandbehold said:

Loved Bester's Prisoner reference - "Be seeing you" complete w/ gesture! Someone w/ more knowledge than myself can confirm or deny, but I recall hearing somewhere that Koenig ad-libbed that. 

I heard the line was always there but he improvised the gesture. 

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On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 9:54 PM, ganesh said:

That was a great episode. Sinclair spitting out "I was on the Line!" shut that shit right down. It's like the only time he ever really said it. 

Okay, look forward to it. 

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The War Prayer

An old flame of one of the characters shows up and is charming as you like but actually turns out to be a bad guy. Oh what a cliché! It would have been a nice touch if in the end he'd have winked at Ivanova or something implying he was actually an infiltrator agent. As with much TV he seems to accept Sinclair and Ivanova into the organisation very easily?  That camouflage tech seems pretty useful, couldn't they have used it later?   

Boy you forget what a rabble rouser Gkar was! If you have to pick one race to be the villains in the series in s1 it's definitely the Narn. Garabaldi threatens to arrest him but doesn't he have diplomatic immunity? 

 The storyline that really grips you here is Londo's. Danica McKellar is just so cute, who didn't love her on The Wonder Years? Londo is terrific and Vir stands up to him for the first time. We also have the revelation of his wives who we'll later meet.

7/10 but only for the Londo stuff.  

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The mages or whatever were implanted with Shadow tech, so they do actually fit. 

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And The Sky Is Full of Stars

Christopher Neame! Just rewatching Colditz today and he and everyone else is brilliant in it. Also loved him in Secret Army playing a role not too dissimilar to what we see here. Rather reminds me of the old Star Trek ep where Kirk finds himself alone on an abandoned Enterprise. Possibly the best single scene is watching Garabaldi glance through the paper with a load of stories linked to previous eps. 

 Can't they walk Talia around the station hoping she'll pick something up on the Sinclair? It's seems a very reckless act on the part of Delenn, Garabaldi and the boys have Sinclair buttoned up, they could just leave him there and let the drugs wear off. 

 Of course they do have a point, there was a conspiracy by the Minbari and in a sense Sinclair is their (and the Vorlorns?) fifth column. A shame the writers couldn't resist the temptation to make them so overtly villainous, much better if these were just people determined to find the truth.

7/10

Deathwalker

I thought that Callisto might be a Xena ref but this ep actually precedes the WP by a few years. Sarah Douglas, yay! And of course Robin Curtis who took over the role of Savik in the Star Trek films. Are we to assume all aliens have the same lifespan as humans?

 Doesn't Na'toth have diplomatic immunity? Interesting that Kosh wishes to have Talia scanned, does he suspect her true nature? Lovely G'kar and Na'toth scenes, G'kar still very much the aggressor, wishing to 'Crush our enemies'. Of course this is all a play on Operation Paperclip, the Allied effort to recruit Nazi war criminals for their technological expertise. Interestingly here we see Ivanova happy to hand this all over to Earth, perhaps because of her recently deceased father? By contrast we have a real disagreement between Sinclair and Garabaldi which is rare. Lennier represents Minbar for the first time. Interestingly it's Londo who seems happiest about all this. What happened the formula? Steven has it's breakdown and they have years to develop it.

6/10 

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1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

 Can't they walk Talia around the station hoping she'll pick something up on the Sinclair?

I think it's established that the lower-level telepaths need a line of sight, and it's also against Psi Corps rules to go around indiscriminately scanning people without permission.

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1 hour ago, starri said:

I think it's established that the lower-level telepaths need a line of sight, and it's also against Psi Corps rules to go around indiscriminately scanning people without permission.

Since Talia is a commercial telepath, Psi Corps has a lot of rules about what they're allowed to do for mundanes. Now Psi Cops can do whatever the hell they want, but they have to do it so that no one knows about it.

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I think she was supposed to be a P5 (of 12), so not quite in the middle of the scale.  Although I assume her encounter with Jason Ironheart would have likely served the same story purpose of Lyta's eventual Vorlon upgrade.

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35 minutes ago, starri said:

I think she was supposed to be a P5 (of 12), so not quite in the middle of the scale.  Although I assume her encounter with Jason Ironheart would have likely served the same story purpose of Lyta's eventual Vorlon upgrade.

You do have to wonder about that.  You are right I think but you'd think he would have seen and eliminated the implanted personality.  And I never really thought they had a good answer for why the implanted personality wouldn't keep the power.

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On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 6:46 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

Remarkably at the Centuri party it seems to be Ivanova who's having the best time when you fully expect it to be Garabaldi

Since Garibaldi is a reformed alcoholic, I expect a Centauri party is a great trial for him.

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On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 1:17 PM, starri said:

I think it's established that the lower-level telepaths need a line of sight, and it's also against Psi Corps rules to go around indiscriminately scanning people without permission.

Even in an emergency? No, I guess you're right

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 3:10 PM, ketose said:

Since Talia is a commercial telepath, Psi Corps has a lot of rules about what they're allowed to do for mundanes. Now Psi Cops can do whatever the hell they want, but they have to do it so that no one knows about it.

You wonder that B5 doesn't have its' own permanent Psi-Cop?

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 5:06 PM, ganesh said:

I was under the impression that Talia was low-level strength anyway. 

But better than nothing?

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On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 11:18 PM, call me ishmael said:

You do have to wonder about that.  You are right I think but you'd think he would have seen and eliminated the implanted personality.  And I never really thought they had a good answer for why the implanted personality wouldn't keep the power.

I think it was very obviously meant to be Talia who was to be their secret weapon in later seasons but with her gone Lyta takes her little trip to the Vorlorn homeworld. You do wonder what Bester and th boys made of her? 

Edited by Joe Hellandback

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On ‎6‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 3:15 PM, Anduin said:

Naah. Not great, but I've seen worse.

True, it was enough for the fans but couldn't reach a wider audience. 

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Believers

I'm sure this is a minority opinion but I think this may be the best ever ep of B5, in terms of a philosophical conundrum, do we save the kid or not? I especially love the scene where they go to the ambassadors for help, Gkar wanting to know what's in it for him, Londo wanting money and Delenn wholly sympathetic but not prepared to make the awful decision. Kosh about as much use as a chocolate fireguard. It's a mark of the bravery of the writers to not find some happy ending and the scenes between Sinclair and Stephen are also excellent. 

 And we have Ivanova chasing some raiders, so she gets a bit of action rather than being permanently stuck on the bridge the whole time. 

10/10

Signs and Portents

Another excellent one, goodbye to the raiders and good riddance, we're finally starting to get into the arc and the central story. The scenes with Morden and the ambassadors are truly excellent, Londo's reply coming from the heart and without realising it he has chosen his path. Gkar is consumed by revenge but beyond that he had no real aims, the Narns aren't hungry for territorial conquest. You're rather surprised that Delenn agreed to see him at all and the face off with Kosh gives you chills.

9/10 

Edited by Joe Hellandback

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I go back and forth on Believers because I think it's a little clunky but the plot is actually very good and kind of 'classic' scifi.

Also worth it for-

I'll wait. For my apology.

You better check the temperature in hell first!

Ragey Sinclair is the best version. I also liked when he took on the android about being 'pure'. You can see how this is a guy that's going to yank an entire space station back 1000 years and command an entire planet to wage war. 

Also, willful Franklin is good because when we get around to the scene where he tears into his superior about burning his notes (which, 2250, really?) it's earned. 

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On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 7:02 PM, ganesh said:

I go back and forth on Believers because I think it's a little clunky but the plot is actually very good and kind of 'classic' scifi.

Also worth it for-

I'll wait. For my apology.

You better check the temperature in hell first!

Ragey Sinclair is the best version. I also liked when he took on the android about being 'pure'. You can see how this is a guy that's going to yank an entire space station back 1000 years and command an entire planet to wage war. 

Also, willful Franklin is good because when we get around to the scene where he tears into his superior about burning his notes (which, 2250, really?) it's earned. 

I think human nature is what it is, to a degree we still want written records?

In the Shadown of Z'Hdum;

So at last we get to see Mr Morden for what he is and have an explanation as to what is going on. I must say I was a little underwhelmed first time around, you sort of feel disappointed that the explanation is quite downbeat. Other than that nice to see Zac step up, a true conflict between Garabaldi and Sheridan/Ivanova (he seems so zealous about this you sympathise with them). Great scenes with the Homeguard too, the recruiter seems so plausible. You rather wonder if the PsiCorps would let Talia join? Interesting Zac is both perfectly prepared to join and allow Sheridan to act quite illicitly with the prisoner. And Talia was right to slap Sheridan. Interesting too that everyone wants to let Morden go but for different reasons.

Knives;

 Something of a letdown compared to the previous ep, the Sheridan visions storyline isn't up to much but the Londo stuff is great, love his and Vir's conversation about opera (they are SOOOOO Italian) and court politics and old friendships make for great entertainment, Londo more powerful than ever and now unable to sleep at night. Interesting to see Bruce Boxetellier in the batting cages, you should check him out in The Babe. 

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Confessions and Lamentations

Love Sheridan's little look when the bridge crew tell him about Keffer's Shadow hunting, odd he doesn't tell Delenn about it. An obvious analogy for AIDS and the terror and hysteria it created, still resonant now but all the more so in the early 90s when Hollywood was just recovering from its' devastation. Interesting that its' Delenn who says 'Faith manages' yet in the end it dooms them. We assume some Makrabs must survive on their colonies? You wonder were the Shadows behind this, the Makrab seem quite knowledgeable about the dark forces?

8/10

Divided Loyalties

Love, love, love Lyta, she's fab and my favourite B5 character, so nice to have her back. Byebye Talia who was also good but not as interesting, Now Lyta's scan of Kosh takes on greater significance whereas before it was Jason Ironheart's gift to Talia that was the gamechanger. You wonder that they didn't have some restraints handy when they do the test or have Delenn and Lenier ready to overpower the mole. So, did Talia and Ivanova take their relationship to 'the next stage'? They keep it subtle but I like to think so and Claudia Christian considers herself the 'First dyke in space' (barring Barbarella?). Anyone know why Andrea left the series?    

8/10

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1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Anyone know why Andrea left the series?    

8/10

I can't remember where I read this, but apparently she wanted a lot more to do. However, it was always going to be a supporting part, so she left in search of bigger roles.

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3 minutes ago, Anduin said:

I can't remember where I read this, but apparently she wanted a lot more to do. However, it was always going to be a supporting part, so she left in search of bigger roles.

Checking IMDB she walked straight into a regular role with NYPD Blue so obviously a change up

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3 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Checking IMDB she walked straight into a regular role with NYPD Blue so obviously a change up

I've never watched it. But if it got her more screentime, then good on her. Actually, I dredged up a somewhat conflicting memory. She wanted more to do on B5, JMS told her she had some coming up, but it wasn't soon enough. So she left.

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9 hours ago, Anduin said:

I've never watched it. But if it got her more screentime, then good on her. Actually, I dredged up a somewhat conflicting memory. She wanted more to do on B5, JMS told her she had some coming up, but it wasn't soon enough. So she left.

There's also the whole situation with Jerry Doyle.

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12 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

So, did Talia and Ivanova take their relationship to 'the next stage'?

Per Straczynski, yes.

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I thought they were divorced in real life. 

There is a scene with Talia in Ivanova's quarters with what were clearly sleeping clothes and another time Ivanova wakes up clearly expecting Talia to be there. 

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1 hour ago, ganesh said:

I thought they were divorced in real life. 

Wiki indicates they got married during the show and divorced before it ended but it seems like they divorced and maybe married after she left the show.

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37 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Wiki indicates they got married during the show and divorced before it ended but it seems like they divorced and maybe married after she left the show.

IMDB says she left the show in 95 so I think you are right.

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On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 2:29 PM, Anduin said:

I've never watched it. But if it got her more screentime, then good on her. Actually, I dredged up a somewhat conflicting memory. She wanted more to do on B5, JMS told her she had some coming up, but it wasn't soon enough. So she left.

Yes, 77 eps of a much more popular show. 

On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 12:20 AM, ketose said:

There's also the whole situation with Jerry Doyle.

Which was?

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On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 1:47 AM, starri said:

Per Straczynski, yes.

O hell yeah!

On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 3:36 AM, ParadoxLost said:

Wiki indicates they got married during the show and divorced before it ended but it seems like they divorced and maybe married after she left the show.

Don't you mean the other way around?

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Comes the Inquisitor

So strange to see such a desperate G'kar addressing the crowd in the hope of raising support for the Narn, very reminiscent of both appeasement prior to WW2 and the contemporary Yugoslavia conflict, the UN's arms embargo making it a paradise for black market arms dealers and smugglers, each side begging the outside world to support it. Vir learns the price of patronage, for so long ignored by everyone and now people are pursuing him due to his influence with Londo. Can we really believe that Sheridan and Delenn are the first people the Vorlorns ever found to be worthy? How did they defeat the Shadows in the their previous wars? Interesting how many shows touch upon Jack the Ripper at some stage, Star Trek, Kolchak, The Outer Limits, even Buffy obliquely. The final 'Jack' line is still a little chilling. One mistake though he offended in the East End, not West.

7/10 

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1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

O hell yeah!

Don't you mean the other way around?

No I didn't.  What I meant was, I'm sure they divorced after she left the show,  I'm not sure whether they married before or after she left the series.

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5 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

How did they defeat the Shadows in the their previous wars?

They didn't have humans around so this was something new to check out. They also were gifted a large space station and someone with knowledge of the future too. 

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13 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

How did they defeat the Shadows in the their previous wars? Interesting how many shows touch upon Jack the Ripper at some stage, Star Trek, Kolchak, The Outer Limits, even Buffy obliquely.

From what we learn in the series, previous iterations of the Shadow War went more along the lines of (spoiled for those who haven't seen the whole series):

Spoiler

The Shadows and Vorlons aren't really trying to defeat each other, but make the Younger races (everyone else, pretty much) choose between them. So who was on their side isn't really that important so long as they can be persuaded to agree with them. They can get pretty heavy handed in their "persuasiveness" at times.

My favourite Jack the Ripper was in the little known Forever, where the immortal protagonist (Henry) had met him and it's suggested that the Big Bad of the series (another immortal) may have actually been him.

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21 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

No I didn't.  What I meant was, I'm sure they divorced after she left the show,  I'm not sure whether they married before or after she left the series.

Interesting, Garabaldi was always interested in her. 

17 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

They didn't have humans around so this was something new to check out. They also were gifted a large space station and someone with knowledge of the future too. 

Well put. 

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8 hours ago, John Potts said:

From what we learn in the series, previous iterations of the Shadow War went more along the lines of (spoiled for those who haven't seen the whole series):

  Hide contents

The Shadows and Vorlons aren't really trying to defeat each other, but make the Younger races (everyone else, pretty much) choose between them. So who was on their side isn't really that important so long as they can be persuaded to agree with them. They can get pretty heavy handed in their "persuasiveness" at times.

My favourite Jack the Ripper was in the little known Forever, where the immortal protagonist (Henry) had met him and it's suggested that the Big Bad of the series (another immortal) may have actually been him.

Part of me says it was because he was the first and of course was never caught?

The Fall of Night

Good scene with the fighters although you wonder if G-force would be an issue in space? Lond's diplomacy has a ring of truth to it, you could just imagine a real statesman making the same arguments. Roy Dotrice, another Buffy alumni (or strictly speaking Angel). Should we expect the Jewish Ivanova to celebrate Christmas? You can see both sides of the argument when it comes to the Treaty with the Centuri, it's a shame they made the Nightwatch representative such a creep although even he has his sympathetic moments. The Captain's fall is quite spectacular and it's interesting to think of the science behind it, Arthur C Clarke would approve. Aren't those Vorlorns sneaky, programming us all to see them in different ways, the many different faces of god. Like Londo's "I saw nothing" line, reminds me of the finale of an old horror movie, The Car. Goodbye poor Keffer, you feel bad for him although he was painfully dull quite frankly. Nice space battle and you can see both sides, reminiscent of the Graf Spee.  

 7/10

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9 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Good scene with the fighters although you wonder if G-force would be an issue in space?

The Expanse, possibly the hardest space opera out there, says it's an issue.

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5 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Goodbye poor Keffer, you feel bad for him although he was painfully dull quite frankly.

The studio forced the character on the show. 

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