Babylon 5 - General Discussion

[Gilmel]

Why do they need a reboot? That seems odd to me. A movie set in the B5 universe, sure, but the show is so mytharc-y, I have a hard time imagining a reboot that's still B5.

 

Well, we'll see how it goes.

[JES004]

I would have liked him to do a story around David - maybe 15 years in the future.

 

[Joe]

Why do they need a reboot? That seems odd to me. A movie set in the B5 universe, sure, but the show is so mytharc-y, I have a hard time imagining a reboot that's still B5.

 

Well, we'll see how it goes.

Because it's so mytharcy, it's sort of a lockout to new potential fans. Can you imagine all the exposition that would be needed, explaining about the Shadow War and all? Me, I just want to see a Vorlon ship with today's level of CG. That's all.

[Constant Viewer]

A story about David would be good, but I don't want a reboot.  Unlike with something like Star Trek it seems too soon.  

[Locutus]

A reboot series sounds better to me.

[RadiantAerynSun]

I'm not sure how you'd do a reboot as a movie. Something set in the same universe sure; maybe something rebooting some small part of the series arc, I guess, but just not sure what meaningful ground you could cover in 1 movie. I think you could set something either before or after the Shadow War and not explain much about it while still dealing with other aspects of the universe the show was set in.

 

You could probably do a movie using the events of War Without End but it wouldn't have quite the same impact as it does after watching 3 yrs of a show only to go "OMG Valen is WHO????" But I think you could do it.

[ganesh]

Given how fantastic television is, this really should be a miniseries rather than a movie. People are going to see comic book movies. Serious scifi really isn't in movies. 

 

The new Star Trek doesn't count imo because it's just a typical pg13 action movie with a known property. JMS obviously isn't doing that here.

[ProfCrash]

I would love to see a reboot, one that followed his original plan. Sinclair was suppose to be on the show for three years but Michael O'Hare's illness prevented that. I would think that following the Sinclair/Sheridan storyline would be cool. Hopefully we would get the original ending to the Shadow War and Earth Civil War and not the rushed version. Season 5 would be different with Ivanova as the Captain of B5. Hell, the telepath story line has real potential to not suck with Ivanova there and someone very different playing Byron. And no signing, hopefully JSM learned to nix all the singing crap....

 

JMS has enough pull today that the show would get the money it deserved. Now it is possible that more money and better known actors could be bad for the show. Using actors who were not all that well known not only saved the studio money but it meant that there were fewer ego issues to have to deal with. With a cast as big as Babylon 5's, that is probably a good thing.

 

I am not sure that a movie is a great idea. Movies work for Trek because it is more episodic. Fans know the backstory well enough to be able to walk into a movie and be fine and the plots can move along without much exposition for the casual viewer. B5, not so much. A movie would have to introduce new races, planets, worlds, political culture and characters. Yikes.

 

So reboot the show. Follow the original script with more money and different actors. The fans of the original series should know enough of its history to understand why things are very different in season 2, they would have to be if Sinclair and Sheridan are in the picture, and it would be great to see his original vision play out.

[ganesh]

Sinclair was supposed to be there until the end, no? The last thing would have been him taking B4 back in time iirc.

 

Sinclair was supposed to direct the Shadow War with Sheridan being the X/O as captain of the Agamemnon. That's why they had the S1 episode where they established that whomever was in charge of B5 was the commanding officer in the sector, regardless of rank. 

[TeslaNewton]

I think a show reboot works better. If networks wouldn't want it, there is always Netflix.

[ganesh]

TNT should have commissioned this instead of the dreadful Falling Skies if they wanted a scifi show. I'm sure JMS knows what he's doing, but this could easily be a summer show since those tend to be more serialized anyway. 

 

Shit, BBC America loves scifi now. 

[ProfCrash]

I believe that Sinclair was suppose to be there until the end of Season 3 when he leaves to become Valen. As I understood it, JMS finished out the Sinclair story line but simply removed Sinclair from the picture before sending him to Minbar.

 

More likely then not, when Sinclair went to Minbar as Valen, Sheridan would step in as Captain of B5. I am not certain how any of this would have affected Sheridan's relationship with Delenn and if that was a total change from the original plot line. I doubt that it was but I could see the Sheridan/Delenn relationship occurring in the fourth and fifth season with their wedding happening at the beginning of Season 5 and Delenn being pregnant at the end of Season 5.

 

I am curious as to how they would have handled the Rangers. Sinclair as Entilzah was brilliant. It allowed him time to observe how the Minbari behaved on Minbar which was probably very useful to him when he went back in time. I never read JMS script books so I don't know if he covered what Sinclair's storyline was suppose to be. In my mind, I figured he was sent to Minbar in a less rushed situation, to include a formal change of command and retirement from the military. Then we would see him on Minbar as Entilzah, better setting up the Rangers and the Minbari civil war.

 

I could see a relaunch of B5 and the show ending up looking very different then it did the first time through. Most of the alien races would not need story changes but a fair number of the human characters could find themselves in different places. Lyta Alexander was not suppose to leave, so Talia would not make an appearance. The hidden personality storyline that Talia took was suppose to be with Takashima but she was gone after the pilot. So would Ivanova and Talia even be in the show? Takashima worked with Sinclair before and so was a loyal aid to him in a station with people trying to set him up for failure. Her reveal as an unintended double agent would have been huge.

[ganesh]

No, the entire shadow war was to be run from B5 under Sinclair. Then he goes back as Valen; i.e., war without end. Sheridan was never intended to be the commander of B5, but JMS ended up just combining the 2 when JOM unfortunately couldn't continue. The whole One Who Was, etc., was something JMS came up with after and not part of the original plan. 

 

This still works better on tv though.

 

It's funny because a lot of the standalone stories back then are still relevant today, and you'd have to be blind and deaf not to see any allegory with the Centauri/Narn to what's currently going on in the world.

[Watcher0363]

The Shadows were influenced by a central figure but the Vorlons weren’t so it keeps things even for me or maybe tips the scales a little in the Shadows favour. A very powerful central figure pushing out feelings of chaos to them. It was enough to lose your individually by it.

It reminds me a lot of Earth: Final Conflict when Sandoval’s Taelons tech stop working. The bad guy who sent thousands to their death or to be experimented on was a different person. Without the tech he loved his wife and wanted to do what was right but with it he all he cared was serving the Taelons and getting ahead.

 

 

 

What a strange place to be discussing Earth: Final Conflict. Liked the first few seasons, thought it went downhill in a spectacular fashion.

I think what amuses me most about the Vorlon and Shadow conflict is the petulant nature of their conflict. It's less a matter of being right, as it is the other side being wrong. I love the duality of Order/Chaos, it's an interesting dynamic.

Watching Earth: Final Conflict, has prepared me for the convoluted Marvel Universe which is so prevalent these days. As for B5, I find its story line more relevant to today's climate. Now that we are all Capitalist it is just a matter of what type of Capitalist we want to be. A more controlled above board builder of wealth. Or the greed is good type. Each one builds wealth, it's just the casualties are fewer and farther apart in the former. Peace is good for business say the Vorlons, but war is better says the Shadows, for it weeds out the weak. Mo Money Mo Money for the survivors, at least the 1%'s anyway. I am now officially 2 cents poorer.

[itsmeyousee]

Just been rewatching and it's still as good as when i first watched, Gkar speech in the Council Chamber in Season 2 The Long Twilight Struggle still completely wrenchs at my heart , just brilliant.

[TheOriginalDonald]

IIRC correctly JMS only has rights to do a B5 major motion picture, Tesla

As for TNT commissioning a B5 reboot series, Ganesh.........they never gave Crusade a chance.

[ganesh]

The overall plan for Crusade sounded kind of awesome. They should reboot that if anything, since it never really got going. There was apparently a script with Bester in it for E14 and it was supposed to really kick off the myth arc.

[Locutus]

A lot of the plots in the technomage trilogy of books would have been in Crusade. A secret earth black ops were trying to use shadow tech. JMS has said that the plague would have been cured early and the show would have gone in a new direction.

[ganesh]

I know. I didn't want to give too much away.

[itsmeyousee]

A question about the Coming of Shadows, Season 2. When the telepath chicks go to tell the Centauri PM about the Emperor health on B5. He is standing in the Royal Court wiht two Minbaris and a Human. But neither of them have any Ranger gear on, Human in a normal suit and Minbaris in those general looking robes. And it's the only time we see someone in the Royal Court that isn't Centauri. Aside from B5 main characters eg G'Kar, Sheridan, Delenn and Morden. Does anyone know if JMS has been asked about why they where there ?

[Joe]

Without watching the scene in question, maybe they were diplomats?

[ganesh]

Check the Lurker's Guide. That has pretty comprehensive info. 

[itsmeyousee]

Thank you Joe and Ganesh for responding so quickly. I will check out the Lurker Guide. It just really struck me as odd, especially since Minbari really keep to themselves and there was nothing to indicate a Ranger connection yet this is the ep which we learn about them and Sinclair's role.

[Reishe]

Why is this show not available on Netflix or another streaming service? ... Are they looking for too much money for the licensing or hoping that DVD sales are more profitable? It just seems like someone should have snapped this series up by now.

Hi--just stopped by this forum, don't know if you're still following, but...

From everything I've heard on the Babylon Podcast (excellent podcast, btw, they interviewed just about everybody you could hope to hear from), I get the impression that Warner Bros. is and always has been particularly dog-in-the-manger with their properties. If they can't make buckets full of cash, they won't bother releasing something, but they won't let anyone else play with it at a lesser profit. In case their lawyers are reading: this is simply what I have heard, and an impression that I get.  ;) So they are probably sitting on the streaming rights, holding out for an unreasonable fee, figuring that any fans that really want to watch again will fork over the dvd or download prices, which both kick licensing fees back to the mother ship. In interviews, I've heard at least a couple of people describe the Warner Bros. business model when B5 was in production: they would pit each division against each other, television vs. fim vs. music etc., so instead of developing synergy between divisions to create a stronger product, like leveraging television products to help dvd sales, it was an every-man-for-himself corporate culture. Ugh.

[ganesh]

JMS has also said recently that it's up to the fans to make a stink and push to get it streaming. He can't do much else. We need a new generation of fans to get into the show if there's going to be anything new. 

[Reishe]

I believe him when JMS says he can't do anything more to pressure Warner, but I also don't believe that fan pressure would be any more successful. And fans have been pressuring them for years. Fans begged Warner to re-release the B5 books, and really, an ebook release would cost them pennies, even if they had to pay the authors a new royalty (and that's unlikely).

[Reishe]

I understand they whys of having to make it a movie instead of a tv show, but I don't want to see a Bab 5 movie. Granted, I'm a little prejudiced--I'm not a big fan of the movie style of storytelling. A 2-hour limit on telling a story, or a Hunger-Games-style 8-hour span over four years, just isn't enough time to tell a decent story, particularly one that was so rich in part b/c it showed us the everyday lives of the characters--daily petty annoyances, routine breakfast in the mess, elevator rides and bureaucratic hassles.
 

While I would love to see the story told, serially, with a modern effects budget and a few rough spots ironed out, I don't think I could bear seeing the greats played by anyone else. Andreas, Peter, Mira, Bill (Mumy), Stephen--they created perfect characters in my mind, and if I saw anyone else trying to inhabit them, it would just hurt.

[ganesh]

If they did JMS' original treatment, it could work because it's really a rather different story than what we saw as the B5 tv show. The current Star Trek property went out of their way to say that it's in in different universe, so this could be the same. For a movie franchise, I still think it's a dicey proposition since scifi, since my last post here, doesn't sell much at the box office, and comic book movies are the rage. It would be hard to budget a $50 million movie on a property that's not well known, let alone a typical 100 mil.

 

JMS recommeded, what I think is the best course: bitch and moan and get the original B5 on Netflix or Amazon, get a new generation of viewers to love the show, and then we can get new content to be commissioned. It's always been a small screen endeavor, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Look at Doctor Who; a movie would be catastrophic to the franchise. It's the same deal. 

[benteen]

I just finished watching Babylon 5 last night and I loved it.  It really was a great show and it made me angry that I didn't follow the show when it was originally on.  I saw the first episode when it was originally on and thought it was dumb.  I never watched a complete episode after that except for bits and pieces but heard often how good of a show it was.  It took me more than 20 years but I'm glad I gave it a second chance.  I was not disappointed.  Epic storytelling and memorable characters.  Particularly ahead of its time on the storytelling front and I wish more shows would have an idea where they are headed.  Sleeping in Light was definitely one of the best series finales I've ever watched.

 

I ended up watching by ordering the DVDs.  The total price for them wasn't bad but it's ridiculous that this show isn't available on at least one of the three major streaming services.

 

It's frustrating that you can't find any Babylon 5 book nowadays (except for season guide books it looks like), especially considering many of those books are canon and conclude certain story elements.

Edited April 24, 2016 by benteen

[ProfCrash]

I am thrilled that you finally watched it and enjoyed it. It is the best written Sci Fi show, start to finish, that I have seen. There are some shows that had some really strong seasons, Battle Star Galactica, but the overall arc fell apart for me. Lost started strong but totally fell apart. The story in B5 is so well thought out and strung together that it is simply amazing. Season 3 was by far one of the best written seasons of any television show that I know of.

 

The weakness that B5 had was in Production values and acting. (ducks all the flying debris headed her way). I love the character of Sinclair and thought that Michael O'Hare did an ok job acting but his inexperience acting on TV was evident and the revelation of his metal health crisis explains why Sinclair was always so stiff. Sheridan could have been a stronger character with a different actor. I know, heresy, I don't think that Boxlitner is that great of an actor and Sheridan came off as very one dimensional. Actually, most of the human characters were good but held back by their actors. I love Garibaldi and Ivanova but they could have been better portrayed.

 

Delenn, G'Kar, and Londo were amazingly written and acted. A part of me wonders if all the make up and prosthetics made it easier for the actors to lose themselves in the role. But those three hold the show together during some of the weaker episodes.

 

I wouldn't be too worried about not having the books. To Dream in the City of Shadows and the trilogies were the only ones worth having. Even the trilogies normally declined in the third book. The comic books were pretty good too. The art work was pretty horrific but the story was really solid.

 

I guess the books and comics follow the trend of the show, great writing, occasionally great production value but normally mediocre production value. So it is a great story that is not presented at its best which can make it hard to buy into.

[benteen]

I disagree on Sheridan though Boxleitner certainly has his over-the-top moments.  I was pleased when I realized that Delenn was played by the same actress who played the French woman on Lost.  She was very good and the characters of Londo and G'Kar were consistently the best.  Agreed that the acting could be clunky at times and the dialogue could be cringe-inducing.  I think that has to do with the language restrictions of the era.  There were times when you needed harsher language and they could barely use the word "ass." 

 

I think we're agreement though about Battlestar Galactica and Lost.  I loved BSG and they had some great stories but I find my opinion of it declining with each passing year because it was clear that Ron Moore and his writers had absolutely no plan for a long-term story whatsoever.  The same with Lost.

[ProfCrash]

No many how many times I have watched the series, I cannot get past my dislike for Sheridan. He was so damn boring. I strongly prefer Sinclair. I wish that O'Hare's health had been good enough that he could have stayed on because I think we lost a lot of good stories when Sinclair departed. I also think it affected Garibaldi's growth.

 

But I know I am in the minority there.

[Goldmoon]

ProfCrash, I'm with you.  IMO BB can't act at all.  For four years, he was the hero we were supposed to watch and listen to with his gravelly voice, but Sinclair had so much more gravitas and a much better voice for leadership.  I thought Mira Furlan was great in the first season.  Her version of Delenn was strong and sure, and very confident.  The character may have lost confidence after that but whatever the reason, I detested MF's portrayal of Delenn after the change.  I absolutely loathed the way the actress tilted when she left a room.  Did you notice, as if her center of gravity couldn't withstand a corner? Put them together, the romantic leads of the show by actors I thought were seriously miscast well ... thank Valen for Andreas Katsulas, Peter Jurasik and Richard Biggs.

I bought the DVD sets when they were $75 EACH.  Yikes.  It hurts my heart to see how low the prices are now.  I would re-buy if they would come out in blu ray.  I am just now rewatching and have practically inhale seasons one and two in one week.  Damn the first three seasons of this show were stellar!

[JES004]

Loved Boxleitner, hated O'Hare.  I don't know if I could have stayed with the show if he had remained.  I don't get gravitas from O'Hare.  I get wooden.

As to the rest of the cast, the chemistry they created was among the best in television.  

I need to do a rewatch.  Season's 2-5   ;-)  Although I do love the Season 1 episode (Believers) that focused strongly on Franklin.  

[The Crazed Spruce]

I'm in the Boxleitner camp, too. I always thought that O'Haire was the weak spot in the show's otherwise stellar casting. Took me a while to warm up to him. Boxleitner, on the other hand, had me engaged from the moment he stepped on the screen.

And sure, he's not exactly the most nuanced of performers, but rewatch the episode where he's being tortured by that EarthGov interrogator, and tell me again he's a lousy actor.

[ParadoxLost]

I could never really get into the show in season 1, so I can't make a comparison.   I don't think I have even seen all the episodes.

But I thought that the chemistry between the main cast starting from season 2 really worked.  That was a lot of the reason I didn't care for season 5.  Too much of everyone going their own way.

Edited December 11, 2016 by ParadoxLost

[ganesh]

I think the argument is that Sheridan just had less dimensions as a character than Sinclair. Also in the first season, they were laying a lot of groundwork too, so there's that. Given the circumstances, it would have been interesting to see how the original treatment would have played out had O'Hare had more time to settle in. We never got much of his developing "Valen-ishness" until his final return to the show and then he was gone. 

If you re examine S1 imo, you'll see some subtle depth when Sinclair is alone with Garabaldi or Ivanova. And don't forget, the Minbari *insisted* on Sinclair to run B5; he had zero experience in this kind of command, and Garabaldi told him the brass had him no where on their radar for any command. He spent a lot of time in the initial season tromping around "Kirking" until Garabaldi called him on his BS. He did a great job pretending to be a bigot with Ivanova to investigate that whole thing too. 

I don't really have a problem with Sheridan. The whole plot leading up to and following "these orders have forced us to declare independence" was well done. I always loved his "apology speech" in the mirror too, and when he chewed out Kosh. 

Edited December 11, 2016 by ganesh

[kassygreene]

I don't know if it's been covered in this forum, but O'Hare had health issues that led to him voluntarily withdrawing from the show.  It's very sad, and very noble, and I don't have the heart to recap it here but this entry on wikipedia has the gist of it.

[Constant Viewer]

I was neutral on both Sinclair and Sheridan, but always wondered what happened to Sinclair's girlfriend Catherine Sakai? Was it ever mentioned?

I liked that Sinclair was able to come back later though for the two-part episode

[ProfCrash]

Sakai is dealt with in the book To Dream in the City of Sorrows. She returns from her expediaiton, finds Sinclair gone and is sent to Minbar by Delenn. She goes on to become a Ranger and is going to marry Sinclair on Minbar. She is in the same training class as Marcus. She joins Marcus and Sinclair on a mission to protect the Great Machine on the planet below and her ship is sent through a time vortex thingy. It is unclear what her fate is although a big deal is made of the fact that Sinclair gives Catherine his time stabilizer. Sinclair gives Marcus the denbok that was destined for Catherine. When Sinclair goes back in time to become Valen he leaves a note that says that he found Catherine. It is cryptic so it is not sure if she was sent back to Valen's time or that he thinks he finds her in heaven.

Sinclair was wooden when the show started but by the end of the first season he was far more out going and engaged. I think part of it was O'Hare's relative lack of TV and Movie experience, he was mainly a stage performer before B5, and the fact that Sinclair was a very guarded individual. 

The actress who played Catherine commented in an interview that she had to walk O'Hare through the does and don'ts of a sex scene on TV because he had never had one before. The type of movement that you use on the stage and on the screen is different because the stage actor needs to be seen by the person in the back row while the screen actor is performing for the camera. So it would take some time to adjust his style. Toss in the mental illness he was dealing with and you had an actor who probably should not have been cast.

That said, Sinclair should have been a guarded, closed off character. Think about his back story. The Knight in the VR world flat out said that Sinclair was on track to be the youngest Admiral ever in Earth Force. He was seen as a rising star, someone who succeeded in pretty much everything. We saw that he was one of the few humans who could go toe to toe with a Minbari in combat. Remember, he beat Neroon, one of the top Warrior Caste leaders, in hand to hand combat when Neroon had the element of surprise. There were references that he was an astonishingly good Starfury pilot. He was skilled enough in strategy and combat to survive situations that others could not. He lost everything at the Battle of the Line. That missing 24 Hours caused so much distrust that Earth Force was actively trying to get him out of the service. He had to be excellent to survive and continue to advance in rank. Babylon 5 was suppose to be a dead end posting that no one wanted and that would end his career. The number of people he trusted was very small. I suspect that Garibaldi and Franklin were the only two members of his Command Staff that he trusted. By the end of Season One you can see that he has developed a good relationship with Ivanova and was working with her well. He might have even trusted her.  His character was more relaxed and was lightening up. Hell, he worked with Garibaldi to play a joke on Ivanova.

I suspect that Sinclair's growth would have been massive as the series continued. It is clear that he was never a yes man. He regularly skirted the rules, within the regs because he was smart, on B5. To Dream in the City of Sorrows clearly lays out that he is not willing to play by the Minbari rules. It is actually clear that he never really trusts the Minbari or the Vorlons, hence his cryptic message to Garibaldi from the Ranger in Season 2. He completely restructured the Rangers and built something that no one else could.  

Sheridan was a one dimensional golden boy who was suppose to have a subversive side (his collecting evidence for conspiracy theories) which is why he doesn't trust Earth Force and is willing to turn against Clark. The problem with Sheridan is that there is no real time spent explaining why Sheridan would be so willing to turn against Earth Force or believe the Minbari or work with the Rangers or do pretty much anything that he does do except that he is the golden boy who always does the right thing. There is no real possibility that Sheridan will ever make a bad choice or do the morally wrong thing. Because he is too much of the morally correct golden boy. His back story is boring. He did well as a kid, was the son of an Ambassador, did well at the Academy, got lucky in one battle, was shown off as a great hero because he got lucky with the Black Star, and was promoted up the ranks for that reason. He is smart and a good leader. But he is boring as all hell and gone and has the emotional gravitas of a grape.

We were going to get Sheridan sometime in season 2 or 3 in the original plan. Sinclair was Valen and was going to go away. I would have liked more time to see Sinclair's growth and to see more of how the two men interacted. I think Sheridan would have benefited from a more lengthy introduction and being eased into the series.

In some ways I see the way that Sheridan and Lochley were inserted so quickly and immediately into the series was part of the problem. We had no idea who they were and suddenly they were there. They replaced key players in the series with no real introduction and in many ways, we never really did get to know their back story. Sheridan likes the sound of rain on the roof and oranges and his Dad took them on Sunday drives is about what I know about Sheridan. I know even less about Lochley, she had a drug problem but we don't really know why or where it came from. They were important characters who lacked a substantial back story. When you compare what we know about them to what we knew about Sinclair or Garibaldi, or hell, Delenn, G'Kar, or Londo it really is disappointing.

[ParadoxLost]

7 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

We were going to get Sheridan sometime in season 2 or 3 in the original plan. Sinclair was Valen and was going to go away. I would have liked more time to see Sinclair's growth and to see more of how the two men interacted. I think Sheridan would have benefited from a more lengthy introduction and being eased into the series.

Where did you see that Sheridan coming in season 2 or 3 was part of the original plan?  The outline for the series as of season 1 that JMS released didn't have Sheridan anywhere in it and has Sinclair sticking around for the entire series.

[Maverick]

 Sheridan was supposed to show up at some point in the original plan.   But rather than taking over the station, he was going to be a minor/recurring that headed a fleet of EarthForce ships based at B5.   I think--and this is the part I'm fuzzy on--that Sinclair was still going to become Valen and Sheridan was going to become station commander.  The difference was there was supposed to be overlap between the two and we were supposed to get know Sheridan gradually.

 As for Lochly, yeah that was just bad.  But so was pretty much most of season 5.  They were sort of painted in a corner since they couldn't get Ivanova back, but replacing a major/integral character that late in a show's run rarely works (e.g. Ezri Dax in Deep Space Nine).

[JES004]

Not an episode comment, but I just watched Claudia Christian on NCIS.  

[ProfCrash]

I did not buy the script books so I don't have a full idea of what was suppose to happen when. I do know that JMS has said that Sinclair was always going to be Valen. There is nothing in the series to contradict this.  In the pilot, upon his arrival and first meeting of Sinclair, Kosh refers to Sinclair as Entilzah. Since Kosh was not a precog, the only way Kosh could have said that is if he knew that Sinclair was Valen, as Valen was the first Entilzah. Delenn and her 9,000 cryptic references to Sinclair as having a destiny and being something different/special. The Soul Hunter and his comment about how Sinclair does not know what they are planning.

If Sinclair was leaving, someone had to take over command of the station. If not Sheridan, then who? Ivanova? She would need to be promoted to at least Commander and that was not likely to happen with Sinclair on the station. Sheridan makes sense in a lot of ways. He is the Earth Force Golden Boy, he won the only major encounter that EF had against the Minbari. He had the look and, was by every measure, a good and competent leader. Babylon 5 had gone from a crap assignment that was suppose to die in the space of a year, to a more high profile assignment that had strategic importance. EF would want Sinclair's replacement to be someone they thought they could control (no more clever work arounds to strikes and random illegal mind probing of officers). Ivanova would not fit that description but Sheridan would. And he was on their original list of people to lead B5.

I think the Sheridan in command would have worked better with the overlap between the two characters. But I think the really problem with Sheridan was that the character had no real depth. He was suppose to be the Golden Boy but turned into more of a free thinker then EF thought he would be. He made a whole shit ton of crappy decisions (yeah, lets go ahead and meet with Garibaldi who is clearly messed up and cannot be trusted or oh lets go see the sights at Z'Ha'Dum because my recently returned to life wife who has clearly been messed with thinks it is a great idea) and was saved by pure luck (Garibaldi being released by Bester and the convenient location of Franklin and Lyta on Mars or Galen being on freaking Z'Ha'Dum at the same time and finding the only living Ancient One ever chilling in the middle of the put at Z'Ha'Dum).

Seriously, I had a whole list of opportunities that Sheridan could have died and it was pretty darn long. Sinclair did his damndest to die but that was intentional and character driven (Good Catholic boy cannot commit suicide so intentionally puts himself in harms way in order to find someone who can kill him but none of them are actually capable of pulling it off). Once Sinclair was called to the carpet for his death wish, he reflects and stops the stupidity. Sheridan had his lover and most trusted advisors telling him not to do the dumb stuff he did but he kept on doing it.

Sheridan was too much of an archetype and not enough of a well rounded character. Sinclair, Ivanova, Garibaldi even Franklin had some type of clearly developed character history that drove their actions. Sheridan never had that. Lochley had more of a history then Sheridan, daughter of a by the book EF member she rebelled and was addicted to drugs/alcohol. Turned her life around when she saw a friend die and turned into a by the book officer who made a questionable choice during the Civil War but one that made sense based on her history.

Seriously, what did we ever get about what drives Sheridan? He likes oranges. He went for Sunday drives with his family. Rain on the roof calms him. He collected conspiracy theories.

[ganesh]

Sinclair was always going to conduct the shadow war as the commander of B5 right till the end of the show, and *then* go back in time with B4, and Sheridan was going to kind of be the XO captaining the Agammemnon during the shadow war. I think the whole B4 incident would have been the end of the show. I don't think who was running the station would have been an issue. 

In the first season they had an episode that established the commander of B5 had the highest military authority in the sector, regardless of rank. Nothing ever panned out on that, but it was because in the original treatment it would have given Sinclair the authority to lead the shadow war. 

[call me ishmael]

On 1/5/2017 at 7:37 AM, ProfCrash said:

 

I did not buy the script books so I don't have a full idea of what was suppose to happen when. I do know that JMS has said that Sinclair was always going to be Valen. There is nothing in the series to contradict this.  In the pilot, upon his arrival and first meeting of Sinclair, Kosh refers to Sinclair as Entilzah. Since Kosh was not a precog, the only way Kosh could have said that is if he knew that Sinclair was Valen, as Valen was the first Entilzah. Delenn and her 9,000 cryptic references to Sinclair as having a destiny and being something different/special.

 

I thought that Kosh only called him Entilzah in the re-edited version they released as "the gathering."  By that point the Valen storyline has been revealed.  But when it first appeared in the realtime pilot i don't think Kosh said that did he?

[ParadoxLost]

18 minutes ago, call me ishmael said:

I thought that Kosh only called him Entilzah in the re-edited version they released as "the gathering."  By that point the Valen storyline has been revealed.  But when it first appeared in the realtime pilot i don't think Kosh said that did he?

I don't actually remember.

I tend to believe the script books which align more with what @ganesh said and makes no mention of Sinclair as Valen.  I discount a lot of JMS interviews about Sinclair always leaving and becoming Valen because he was protecting O'Hare's privacy.

The script books talk about a post season 5 show/movie that says they steal B4 in the past to take it to into the future to defeat the Shadows.  There is no mention of time travel to before B4 is stolen where Sinclair becomes Valen.

[ganesh]

I never saw the pilot when it originally aired, but in The Gathering DVD, Kosh definitely says "Entil-zha Valen" from his POV and "puts out his hand" then "Sinclair" slaps the poison tab on him.* 

Sinclair was always Valen, regardless of the actor. It was just that due to MOH's unfortunate illness, the timetable was changed of when in the show that would actually happen.

I always liked how Lennier made a comment about how "Valen tells us..." and Delenn cracks, "That's because Sinclair was here. It's not prophecy. Stop it."

I'll tell you what, I didn't see it coming. Right after Ivanova says, "How are the Minbari going to listen to a human 1000 years ago about the Shadows?" and split second before Marcus spells it out, I went bonkers. *BECAUSE KOSH KNEW ALL ALONG!

[call me ishmael]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

I never saw the pilot when it originally aired, but in The Gathering DVD, Kosh definitely says "Entil-zha Valen" from his POV and "puts out his hand" then "Sinclair" slaps the poison tab on him.* 

Sinclair was always Valen, regardless of the actor. It was just that due to MOH's unfortunate illness, the timetable was changed of when in the show that would actually happen.

I always liked how Lennier made a comment about how "Valen tells us..." and Delenn cracks, "That's because Sinclair was here. It's not prophecy. Stop it."

I'll tell you what, I didn't see it coming. Right after Ivanova says, "How are the Minbari going to listen to a human 1000 years ago about the Shadows?" and split second before Marcus spells it out, I went bonkers. *BECAUSE KOSH KNEW ALL ALONG!

I agree that Sinclair was going to be Valen.  I just think they redid that scene when they gussied the pilot into a movie.

[ProfCrash]

Quote

I thought that Kosh only called him Entilzah in the re-edited version they released as "the gathering."  By that point the Valen storyline has been revealed.  But when it first appeared in the realtime pilot i don't think Kosh said that did he?

The original version of the pilot did not include it. The pilot they aired when the show was sent to TNT included that scene. It was not a re-shoot, that scene had been shot, it just wasn't aired. There was a lot of new material in the Pilot, the walk through the Ambassadors corridors with Lyta which had been cut because WB thought that it looked like a weird Zoo, was another one. Nothing was re-shoot or gussied up for the remade Pilot. JMS was allowed to re-edit the Pilot by TNT so that it appeared the way he wanted it to originally. I was amazed at how many of my friends who started watching B5 when TNT picked it up totally missed that little plot piece. It went sailing over their heads. It was all kinds of amazing and awesome and I struggled to keep my mouth shut.

Take a close look at Season One and you will see that Sinclair was always destined to be Valen. Deleen spends half the season making cryptic comments about Sinclair and his soul. Deleen is not the only one to make said cryptic comments, Neroon tosses in a few as does the Soul Hunter and the Minbari assassin in the Pilot. You know, all those scenes that were reference in World Without End II when Sinclair is in the chrysalis. Then there is the scene in Sky Full of Stars when Sinclair is in front of the Grey Council and the Triluminary lights up the room and the whole soul transference issue. We know that the triluminary has some of Valen's DNA and reacts to people with that same DNA, which is why Sinclair lit it up. Then there is the whole idiotic Grail episode and Deleen's implication that Sinclair is a Seeker.

There is absolutely no way that Sinclair was destined to be anything other then Valen. He moved up Sinclair's departure because of O'Hare's illness. I think Boxlitner is a more confident actor and was probably easier to work with but Sheridan was never as deep or interesting as Sinclair. Or Garibaldi or Ivanova or Lyta or Talia... Sheridan was written to be a more minor character so he didn't need the same depth as the other characters. The shame of it all is that JMS did not write in more depth when he had the chance. It sounds like JMS knew that a change was coming, he offered to stop shooting while O'Hare received treatment but O'Hare knew that it wouldn't work. So JMS had a good chunk of time in Season 1 and before shooting Season 2 to expand on the charcter of Sheridan but he didn't. It sure feels like he tried to move some of Sinclair's plot points to Sheridan, meeting with the Minbari and Kosh which was somehow completely ignored until that movie aired is one example.