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Tara Ariano

S03.E15: Perverse Instantiation Part One

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Had to look up the title in order to figure out what it meant. It appears to be from Nick Bostrom an academic who works on the philosophy of artificial intelligence and existential dangers to humanity.

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The first category of malignant failure is that of perverse instantiation. The idea here is that a superintelligence could be programmed with a seemingly benign final goal, but could implement that goal in a “perverse” manner. Perverse to whom, you ask? Perverse to us. The problem is that when a human programmer (or team of programmers) specifies a final goal, he or she may fail to anticipate all the possible ways in which that goal could be achieved.

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I must confess that I had the slightest bit of doubt that Clarke would break when Alie puts her to the test, but damn she really is that stone cold.

Edited by JohnSmithSensei
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Alie forgot who she was dealing with. Clarke killed all the Mountain People to save her own. Clarke is capable of making hard choices. Sacrificing the entire human race to save her mother-that was not a choice Clarke would make.

My satellite came out during the climax of that crucial scene, so I hope Clarke made that decision. I'm just taking from JohnSmithSensei's post that Clarke didn't break.

I just keep wishing Clarke could somehow put the implant in herself. I sort of fancy the idea of her becoming the next commander.

Edited by mustbekarma
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Seriously ALIE did you honestly think you were going to make Clarke crack? Abby should have known that hanging herself wasn't going to work. Abby watched her husband get floated after turning him in and Clarke is her daughter.

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I seriously want Indra and Kane to survive. And Monty better not waver, although of course he will.

i was pretty sure Jasper was the one who was chipped and gave away the Luna colony location. I can't help it, I have no sympathy for him. 

Looks like Bellamy's Redemption is close to complete. Bah.

i too would sorta like to see Clarke get the Flame. I'm sure the writers can devise some convoluted explanation for it not killing her. We'll see next week. Please, please let Alie 1.0 be killed off for good.

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Jasper fucking sucks HE BETTER NOT HURT HARPER!! I actually wouldn't mind if Monty winds up having to kill him next week. Damn Clarke is Stone cold but considering what Abby did to her husband/Clarkes father I wouldn't mind her dying either by the way she's not dead YET. They confirmed she was still breathing. Hope Indra and Kane make it.  IM SO READY FOR ALIE TO DIE. Did any one else pump their first like I did when Bellamy shot Jaha's ass? I wanted Jaha to get pumped full of lead though 

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1 minute ago, BookElitist said:

Oh, well, Pike is on his way out... just hope Jasper and Bellamy accompany him.

Ill be down with Pike and Jasper Gone. Bellamy isn't going anywhere from what I heard Rothberg said he's the male lead. Him and Clarke are the safest 

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Bellamy - "Clarke's in trouble!"

Murphy - "Clarke's always in trouble."

LOL I love Murphy. 

Bellamy still didn't show any hate for Pike, they seemed like buddies instantly again. Both of them and Jaha can all die.

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Smell ya later Ontari !!  We hardly knew you.

I'm sorry but how did ALie 1.0's henchman find Clarkie in the woods ?  And then she just lets Ice Nation King take the Flame (I wish they would stop calling it that -- it's not on fire, it's just a chip) and her gun with very little effort.

And now Ice Nation King is dead.  That was a waste of time with him -- where the hell has he been the last few episodes ?  Just waiting in the woods somewhere.

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How is the Ice Nation King not chipped? How is The Ice Nation not chipped? If they aren't, why didnt the entire Ice Nation  come with him to Polis?

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We all figured Harper would be next on the Death Watch. So of course Harper and Monty's hook up was put in simply to create this leverage for later. I hope nothing happens to her, and I also don't want Jasper dead at the end of this either. Something is telling me I can't have both. Also, if Jasper is chipped, how can he recall Maya? Shouldn't that be blocked?

I'm mad Roan is dead. He was a good character that I feel was underutilized, since he was noticeably absent for a stretch of the season. And then he just dies like that. Whatever...

Is Jaha dead? Where did he get shot? Or is he just conveniently down for the count?

Holding out hope for Indra and Kane to still be alive. I thought that was a very good hearted move on her part.

This season I lost any type of feeling towards Bellamy, however I didn't mind him this episode. Murphy continues to be my favorite character. "I'm just trying to survive..."

I have no idea how this all ends, but I feel like it either plays out with Raven being a hero behind a keyboard or Clarke taking the flame and somehow surviving. Perhaps both. Yay females I guess. 

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I actually loved this episode. I had to put aside some of my issues with the characters but after doing so I thought it was great. I was slightly disappointed Clarke didn't account for the possibility that someone in Arkadia was chipped but apart from that the pace took me along with it.

I wish, once again, that they had made Bellamy's "darkness" more subtle and given more time to rebuilding his and Clarke's relationship. But it was good to see them settle back into their groove. For better or worse, he was always her most important relationship. Arguably more than her mother, which may be why they avoided putting him in the noose.

Things I wanted Clarke to say to Abby - if Raven could fight it, then why can't you?

3 hours ago, BungalowSummer said:

i was pretty sure Jasper was the one who was chipped and gave away the Luna colony location. I can't help it, I have no sympathy for him.

Except according to this he took the Flame after ALIE's troops attacked the rig. I literally have no idea when he took the chip because everyone was together the whole time. But I guess he hit peak nihilism and found a way.

I loved the character before this season so it's a shame but I don't think I want to see a Season 4 of even-more-PTSD Jasper dealing with his actions in this season.

3 hours ago, mustbekarma said:

Alie forgot who she was dealing with.

 

Yeah, I knew Clarke wouldn't break. She always sees the big picture. Even tied up, tortured and watching her mother die, Clarke sees the big picture. She's possibly my favourite fictional character, even after the nothing that was her 'arc' this season.

2 hours ago, Artsda said:

Bellamy still didn't show any hate for Pike, they seemed like buddies instantly again. Both of them and Jaha can all die.

Actually, I thought Bellamy showed impatience with Pike's murdering ways. I wouldn't be surprised if this season ends with Bellamy killing him instead of Indra. Either way, I'd be happier with Pike dead. And I kind of hope Jaha is too (although I suspect he's not).

1 hour ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

And now Ice Nation King is dead.  That was a waste of time with him -- where the hell has he been the last few episodes ?  Just waiting in the woods somewhere.

Yes, he was following Clarke and waiting for her to be alone. I was also disappointed to see him die. I thought they'd set him up for something bigger.

1 hour ago, diebartdie said:

How is the Ice Nation King not chipped? How is The Ice Nation not chipped? If they aren't, why didnt the entire Ice Nation  come with him to Polis?

Roan followed Clarke so was out of Polis when it was taken. The Ice Nation is very far North so the only Ice Nation chipped will be those in Polis. I'm assuming ALIE will be marching north as soon as she's solved the 2.0 problem.

Edited by AudienceofOne · Reason: I had more to say
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3 hours ago, BungalowSummer said:

i too would sorta like to see Clarke get the Flame. I'm sure the writers can devise some convoluted explanation for it not killing her. We'll see next week. Please, please let Alie 1.0 be killed off for good.

Maybe they can transfuse Ontari's blood to Clarke?

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1 hour ago, JohnSmithSensei said:

Maybe they can transfuse Ontari's blood to Clarke?

That might be enough to temporarily trick the Flame into accepting Clarke and then they either remove it by destroying it (Raven's wristband is still in play) or Clarke gets permanently turned into a Nightblood.

Personally I think the show is going to get rid of the Flame so that the clans are Commander-less and divided next season. 

Bellamy's sudden determination not to kill Grounders made me laugh, insta-redemption at it's most lazy and ridiculous. 

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6 minutes ago, patchwork said:

Bellamy's sudden determination not to kill Grounders made me laugh, insta-redemption at it's most lazy and ridiculous. 

I've said it before but, out of all the possibilities for how the show would deal with its 'Bellamy problem', pretending there isn't a Bellamy problem wasn't even in my top 10.

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9 minutes ago, patchwork said:

That might be enough to temporarily trick the Flame into accepting Clarke and then they either remove it by destroying it (Raven's wristband is still in play)

I think that wristband is destined for Abby. 

Enjoyed the hell out of this one. Loved how even though he is an ALIE zombie Indra is still on board the Kane bromance express train.   Murphy and Bell together are gold as always. Loved Clarke making the hard choice yet again. 

Don't think Roans fate is totally sealed, he wasn't dead when they picked him up so I think that one could be an 'actor availablity, where the season 4 story takes us'  decision the powers that be make over the filming break. 

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3 hours ago, Slaughter said:

Is Jaha dead? Where did he get shot? Or is he just conveniently down for the count?

He got head shot by Bellamy, but who knows with the show? Was the person who died the black blood that killed everyone except Luna? Kinda looked like Octavia but Bellamy wasn't freaking out.

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If for nothing else, this show really has mastered the art of zigging and zagging with there characters for both good and bad, because if someone told me two or even one year ago, that I would enjoy watching Murphy of all people heroically save the day, I don't think I would have believed them.  But he just did, and I loved every minute of it!  Especially since he kept his normal sarcastic attitude, like his crack Clarke always being in trouble.  Indeed, Murphy!

That said, damn, credit to Clarke for not only not budging with mere torture, but even willing to let Abbie die, in order to protect everyone else.  Alie really doesn't know her that well, because that is Clarke.  At least I hope so.  I really did worry they were going to kidnap Bellamy and do it with him instead, and have her break, so thank you show for not destroying her character like that.

So, Jasper got chipped back in the rig, and ruined everything.  He's now got poor Harper knocked out and trying to make Monty destroy what Raven whipped up to help the team.  Dammit, they're going to kill Harper, aren't they?!  Either way, I so hope Jasper goes down.  He admitted that he purposely took the pill, so I really can't see him coming back from this.

I really don't see Pike surviving this.  Either Octavia will get him, or Indra will keep her word, assuming she survives saving Kane from the explosion.

Operation Chip Ontari has now been shot to hell, thanks to Ontari being braindead, so I guess it's time for Plan B.  Or C.  Or maybe it's D now.

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Except according to this he took the Flame after ALIE's troops attacked the rig. I literally have no idea when he took the chip because everyone was together the whole time. But I guess he hit peak nihilism and found a way.

Jasper took the chip while Luna was being tortured. ALIE instructed her men to force feed him the chip and then the action switched over to the Luna fight, so we never actually saw him take it.

Also, if Jasper is chipped, how can he recall Maya? Shouldn't that be blocked?

I thought the same thing, but I think it was kind of telling when he mentioned what happened at Mount Weather, he didn't say her name. Then again, he could remember every casualties name and the way they died, but I'm guessing that's just ALIE's database trying to turn everyone against Clarke.

That scene with Abbie and the noose was fucked up for network television.

Edited by absnow54

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I'm no medical expert, but if a person becomes brain dead don't they need to vary post-haste set up with machines assisting them in order to not die?

I am not quite sure what to make of this episode because stuff happened and yet not much happened? The past 7 or so episodes can be boiled down to wandering around with the chip, followed by bringing it back to where it was taken from. That is basically it with just added that people in Arkadia and Polis been chipped and they didn't even spend proper time developing or exploring those parts. I don't know, with us being 1 episode away from the finale I feel a bit sad by all the missed potential. I can not for the life of me make sense of the AI story line past the superficial aspects of ALIE 1 wants to get people into CoL to get stronger. But that part goes against her programming as her goal should not be to be stronger but to do what she considers the best for humanity. The show touched a bit upon the idea that no pain = the best, but never quite went there?

There is so much meat to explore on what it means to be human, and what would an AI consider to be the best for humanity as a whole in a post-apocalyptic world. Like would the AI push for unity among all surviving pockets of civilization? Would it select certain groups as the superior and aid them instead? Or maybe it would do it's own form of eugenics to create the 'best human race'. There are so many different angles but here it just seems like ALIE thinks what? Pain = bad = conflict so lets remove it by making them sit and meditate all day? Also people becoming zombies just rob them of all personality, which just makes them very generic for our none-zombie characters to play off. Like it makes it hard to create an interesting dynamic between them.

The show also seems to be cleaning house with any named and semi known Grounder characters. We got Indra and Emori left now? And maybe Nyko somewhere. Not to mention how they completely dismantled Grounder culture and beliefs by making it all about an AI and relate it to the Arkers.

Clarke being all I trust Bellamy... sigh. A lot of fandom thought Clarke started trusting Lexa to soon (I would argue Clarke only trusted Lexa as far as she would do what she considered the best for her people), but here Clarke isn't even allowed 1 second of mistrust despite that Bellamy betrayed her trust and was attempting to hand her over to Pike. I am completely surprised over just how much the show doesn't seem to think Bellamy should be redeemed or really did anything wrong with regards to the Grounders, Octavia or Clarke. The show got a lot of praise for presenting different narratives and motivations in regards of very questionable actions, but I feel like they bought too much into their own hype with the writers saying "it is all about perspectives". Like I am sure a pyromaniac got a perspective for why that hospital building should be put on fire, but it sure as fuck doesn't excuse his actions for then doing it.

That said I always enjoyed Murphy and Bellamy playing off each other. I just wish this season wasn't such a terrible mess.

Indra was the MVP for me in this episode with how she even went to save her zombiefied BFF Kane from the explosion.

Clarke ending up taking the chip has been quite obvious from the start. My money used to be one that they would find some of the black blood Becca had that somehow was still fine (cuz plot!) but now they will just use Ontari instead.

Not surprised on Jasper being chipped. Even without knowing 3x16 spoilers the hints were quite heavy.

I have really missed having Clarke interact with her mother but I gotta say chip!Abby was not what I was dying for lol. That entire scene was brutal. It also shows again whom Clarke has become after landing on the Ground. She knows if she gives in everyone would be lost, so she doesn't give in.

I just hope in S4 the show will allow the characters to breath and lets us see the effects these things have on them proper. Saying a character is compartmentalizing when they seem to barely bat an eye is becoming a bit of a stretch. It feels too much like they are just doing these things cause plots demands it and it demands it now.

Side complaint: The show has really shoved away female/female interaction in this season when it comes to Abby/Clarke and female friendships. Like the show always prioritized M/M friendships and then M/F, but we used to have some friendship interaction between our female characters. This season it is reduced to hugging goodbye. All friendship stuff has been purely between two dudes or m/f, and it bugs (I'm disregarding Clarke/Lexa here despite that yeah they did interact as ~something platonically in a way but it was always tinged with something more if that makes sense. It was not like Clarke/Raven interaction). For a show that likes to brag over being pro-women etc. it is bit side-eye worthy how little they allow them to interact one on one, and in conversations that aren't focused completely about giving ALIE plot information.

Compared to S2, I'm not feeling that much in suspense. I think it is because ALIE is such a poorly defined villain and so her objectives and just what the heck is CoL etc. I feel like we are missing a whole mountain of information and exploration of things concerning her that we for some reason didn't get despite almost half a season of wandering in the woods.


The next episode seems to be fairly predictable based on what we know in so far that I'm guessing the Arkers left will try to hold the top floor while Clarke goes in using transfusion from Ontari. Jasper will screw up the kill switch thing but something something ALIE 2 will help shit happen or something X Y Z will mess up CoL.

Is it just me or aren't we missing some build up to S4 with regards to 'new dangers'? I don't think I missed some clues or build up to be honest (though please share if there are anything). I'm guessing at the end of next episode we will be getting something out of the blue that will hint at danger to come in S4.

I couldn't tell because of the editing and lighting (the directing for this episode was pretty bad imo) but did Jaha fatally shot or not? Also not quite sure if Roan is alive or not?

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Plan A=LunA (declined)

Plan B=Ontari (Braindead) and why would they want her to get the flame? Ontari is mad. Because they didn't have a choice? she's the last nightblood? 

Plan C=Clarke? can they get Ontari's blood and make Clarke a nightblood? lol

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So are they absolutely sure that Roan doesn't have nightblood?  I feel like him getting shot could possibly lead to the conclusion that he has nightblood and can be the next commander.  Like maybe his mother...the ice queen....didn't really want to tell him because she wanted to be able to control him/protect him.

14 hours ago, Slaughter said:

 

I'm mad Roan is dead. He was a good character that I feel was underutilized, since he was noticeably absent for a stretch of the season. And then he just dies like that. Whatever...

 

But are we sure Roan's dead?  He was shot and dragged off, so I thought he was still alive.

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36 minutes ago, DesertCyclist said:

My money's on a transfusion.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner.

Spoiler

See: the promo for Part 2. Clarke sitting on Lexa's throne (hello future ultimate Commander) and there's a few wires hanging to her right.

Edited by kdm07
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So, I can finally say I enjoyed an episode. It may have had something to do with the episode being about more than just another person getting tortured and chipped. Also, it appears to be heading in the direction I've thought all along, so I'm probably enjoying it because the end is in sight and I know longer have to watch the paint as it dries. Alas, even with a stellar instalment next week, for me, this season will have still underserved every one of it's storylines and its characters.

15 hours ago, BungalowSummer said:

Looks like Bellamy's Redemption is close to complete. Bah.

i too would sorta like to see Clarke get the Flame. I'm sure the writers can devise some convoluted explanation for it not killing her. We'll see next week. Please, please let Alie 1.0 be killed off for good.

Clarke taking the Flame has been in the works for a while now. The show has been talking about fate quite a bit, and the fact that it's Lexa's spirit 'choosing'. Yes, the show has painted it as superstition on the one hand, but has gone on to point out how Lexa came to power in part because of Luna's refusal to continue in the conclave. Also, they made sure to remove all other nightblood novitiates as possibilities via Ontari. Luna refusing to take the Flame leaves only Ontari as a possibility and she was conveniently dispatched this episode. Man, Lexa's spirit is picky! Thank goodness, the show had Clarke running around in dead Commander gear for the back half of the season--the purpose being, mere foreshadowing?! So, yep, Klarke Kom SkaiKru, last commander, is gonna carry out Becca Pramheda, first commander's, atonement. SkaiKru to the rescue, apparently. Also, the Flame's going bye bye!

14 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

And now Ice Nation King is dead.  That was a waste of time with him -- where the hell has he been the last few episodes ?  Just waiting in the woods somewhere.

I'm pretty sure COL Kane conveniently non-lethally shot Roan. Making Roan a survivor of being shot twice this episode. Way to go, Roan! Judging by how fast Pike got over being shot in the shoulder by an arrow and cut by Indra countless times, I'm sure Roan'll be up and running in no time!

13 hours ago, Slaughter said:

I'm mad Roan is dead. He was a good character that I feel was underutilized, since he was noticeably absent for a stretch of the season. And then he just dies like that. Whatever...

Is Jaha dead? Where did he get shot? Or is he just conveniently down for the count?

I don't think Jaha was shot in the head, it really doesn't make sense that a) he grunted at being shot, and unless he hit his head on the floor, b) that he didn't get up again a la everyone else from the COL. Easily and oddly dispatched for the time being.

11 hours ago, patchwork said:

Bellamy's sudden determination not to kill Grounders made me laugh, insta-redemption at it's most lazy and ridiculous. 

10 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

I've said it before but, out of all the possibilities for how the show would deal with its 'Bellamy problem', pretending there isn't a Bellamy problem wasn't even in my top 10.

I knew the show would handle it this way, which is why I was so pissed we had to watch him cry about it earlier. Having to watch Clarke have to deal with his crap devalues Clarke for me, and she's one of the few reasons I'm still watching, so at this point, I refuse to ignore what's happened (both plot-wise and ham-handed writing-wise)--Bellamy is a douche--thanks writers!

10 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

That said, damn, credit to Clarke for not only not budging with mere torture, but even willing to let Abbie die, in order to protect everyone else.  Alie really doesn't know her that well, because that is Clarke.  At least I hope so.  I really did worry they were going to kidnap Bellamy and do it with him instead, and have her break, so thank you show for not destroying her character like that.

...

I really don't see Pike surviving this.  Either Octavia will get him, or Indra will keep her word, assuming she survives saving Kane from the explosion.

I knew they'd use Abby against Clarke--I actually thought they'd kill her, but alas, last-minute reprieve. This finale is actually looking like it's going to conveniently rescue most of its cast, like TonDC--although, maybe Kane bites it, you know all the bearded crucifixion imagery can't be wasted. I don't want to get my hopes up with Pike's bullet to the gut--he'll probably heal even without Clarke's dirty bandaging prowess, or in spite of it.

1 hour ago, Gabe Torres said:

I am not quite sure what to make of this episode because stuff happened and yet not much happened? The past 7 or so episodes can be boiled down to wandering around with the chip, followed by bringing it back to where it was taken from. That is basically it with just added that people in Arkadia and Polis been chipped and they didn't even spend proper time developing or exploring those parts. I don't know, with us being 1 episode away from the finale I feel a bit sad by all the missed potential. I can not for the life of me make sense of the AI story line past the superficial aspects of ALIE 1 wants to get people into CoL to get stronger. But that part goes against her programming as her goal should not be to be stronger but to do what she considers the best for humanity. The show touched a bit upon the idea that no pain = the best, but never quite went there?

There is so much meat to explore on what it means to be human, and what would an AI consider to be the best for humanity as a whole in a post-apocalyptic world. Like would the AI push for unity among all surviving pockets of civilization? Would it select certain groups as the superior and aid them instead? Or maybe it would do it's own form of eugenics to create the 'best human race'. There are so many different angles but here it just seems like ALIE thinks what? Pain = bad = conflict so lets remove it by making them sit and meditate all day? Also people becoming zombies just rob them of all personality, which just makes them very generic for our none-zombie characters to play off. Like it makes it hard to create an interesting dynamic between them.

 

This is the problem I have with the back half of the season--there was a lot of treading water. Many argue that there was character driven story, which there were smatterings of, but a lot of the so-called 'plot advances' accompanying said character moments were simply about more people getting tortured and chipped. We totally glazed over the fall of Arkadia and Polis--and everyone is simply drone in the hive mind. Where is the exploration of the AI storyline? Am I missing something, here? We were introduced to the effects of the COL early on, and then... It's a BSG/Matrix mashup with very little exploration of any ideas beyond free will/consent, and escape from pain--all of which were explored with greater depth in the aforementioned properties (before thy became convoluted messes of their own). For me, they definitely focused on the wrong aspects of this storyline and my greates pt fear is that I'm going to have to watch a season 4 (which very well may be the show's last) watching characters I don't like, who were saved by whatever means the plot dictated, 'coming to grips' with the repercussions of their decisions. Now, I don't mind a bit of that, but I don't want to watch Jaha and Pike and Bellamy and Monty and and and.... all dealing with their shit.

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23 minutes ago, kdm07 said:

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner.

  Reveal hidden contents

See: the promo for Part 2. Clarke sitting on Lexa's throne (hello future ultimate Commander) and there's a few wires hanging to her right.

Quoting myself to add: the second half of this season could've been achieved in 1 or 2 episodes to be completely honest. That's how much actually happened in all of these episodes apart from the ridiculous to and fros and the filler stuff.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but I think we got three bottle episodes in a row? They clearly gave them three more episodes and no extra money and it showed. Still, there have been some great bottle episodes so I'm a bit disappointed most of those tanked.

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AudienceofOne, like I said: so much filler this season, all of it pretty circular too. AFAIK, they're getting even less budget next season

Spoiler

(also jives with the hints the cast has so far dropped about the show returning to just the core cast while the actors playing the still alive and named Grounders don't know their fates)

so don't be surprised if Season 4 is completely about the remaining 100 plus Kane & Abby. Depending on how many episodes the CW give them, we may get a bunch of bottle episodes next season too.

I won't be watching though. Next week is where I break up with this show for good.

Edited by kdm07
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^^^^

Nevermore, Demons.... What other one am I missing, AudienceofOne? I guess I'm too demanding, but I tend to look at a season as a whole, so a good episode here or there isn't going to cut it. Though episodes may be enjoyable (more so partially enjoyable this season), I tend to look at everything in terms of what I like to call Narrative Real Estate (NRT). So, while there are enjoyable episodes in the back half, they've taken up precious NRT that could have been used to flesh out this AI world and its themes. To me, Demons could have been completely omitted. Seeing as how the character moments after Nevermore have been virtually non-existent--I guess that was supposed the character-based episode of the season? That'd be fine, I guess, if characters were really exhibiting differing moods or attitudes, but it hardly looks that way.

Edited by Solace247

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Maybe it just felt like three episodes. I seem to have spent an awful lot of time in corridors with only a few characters in a way that didn't progress characterisation or the plot. I do find it ironic that show budgets seem to shrink just as their worldbuilding expands. This season should have been pared right back, devoted to Bellamy's devolution and Clarke's peacemaking and the Ice Nation. The ALIE stuff should have been saved for a season 4, with Jaha returning halfway through this season and ALIE slowly taking over in the background. This would have given them time to flesh out ALIE and her motivations, make Bellamy's arc believable, set up Ice Nation as the big threat that ends up becoming their allies, and they wouldn't be juggling so many storylines and characters. They also wouldn't need to kill off everybody they can't afford.

Overall, I think the season has suffered from success hubris. It's trying to top Season 2 while suffering in comparison to it.

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Been away for a while but Ima say it I called every bit of allies escapades this far and with Ontari Dead how will anyone convince Luna to aide the rest of the 100

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What was the point of torturing Clarke? Couldn't someone have just shoved a chip in her mouth?

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24 minutes ago, dvil said:

What was the point of torturing Clarke? Couldn't someone have just shoved a chip in her mouth?

Because of .... plot.  Remember how they showed on earlier episodes that a person must want to voluntarily take the chip (even under duress) -- that's how Kane ended up crucified in the streets until they threatened to kill Abbey, or how Abbey refused to take the chip until they threatened Raven (I think).  Somehow this little inconvenience will come back to bite ALIE 1.0 in the ass.

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I have just realised I wouldn't care if all characters suddenly died so guess I will just watch the season finale

Spoiler

to see Lexa one more time

and that would be it. Even Clarke waxing lyrical about the trustworthiness of Bellamy didn't irritate me nearly as much as it did several episodes ago because Clarke herself has become so annoying.

Quote

It's a BSG/Matrix mashup...

More like BSG/Matrix for dummies.

I wasn't paying much attention and to be honest I fast-forwarded certain bits, so I would love an explanation why Bellamy shot Roan? To check if he wasn't AI controlled - how exactly? I don't get it. And why would Roan immediately believe Clarke's claim that everyone in Polis is now a mindless drone? Convenient much?

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We totally glazed over the fall of Arkadia and Polis--and everyone is simply drone in the hive mind. Where is the exploration of the AI storyline?

You mean an AI storyline should be more than random bits of torture porn and "shocking" deaths? I am not sure Rothenberg would agree. ALIE is such an underwhelming villain. Her great successes happen conveniently off-screen, even a complete idiot could have crushed Clarke and pals with all the power she has at her disposal. For instance, why not send a few dozens of her slaves to capture Raven and Monty instead of relying on Jasper only?

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58 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I have just realised I wouldn't care if all characters suddenly died so guess I will just watch the season finale

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to see Lexa one more time

and that would be it. Even Clarke waxing lyrical about the trustworthiness of Bellamy didn't irritate me nearly as much as it did several episodes ago because Clarke herself has become so annoying.

More like BSG/Matrix for dummies.

I wasn't paying much attention and to be honest I fast-forwarded certain bits, so I would love an explanation why Bellamy shot Roan? To check if he wasn't AI controlled - how exactly? I don't get it. And why would Roan immediately believe Clarke's claim that everyone in Polis is now a mindless drone? Convenient much?

You mean an AI storyline should be more than random bits of torture porn and "shocking" deaths? I am not sure Rothenberg would agree. ALIE is such an underwhelming villain. Her great successes happen conveniently off-screen, even a complete idiot could have crushed Clarke and pals with all the power she has at her disposal. For instance, why not send a few dozens of her slaves to capture Raven and Monty instead of relying on Jasper only?

Agreed, ALIE 1.0 is so very underwhelming as a villain.

As everyone else has predicted, it is inevitable that Clarke sticks the flame into herself -- with no repercussions whatsoever because of ........ oh, let's say magic -- and then Clarke becomes the new Commander, defeats ALIE 1.0, unites the 13 Grounder tribes, pardons Bellamy, finds Jasper a girlfriend that can't be killed, cures cancer, makes the trains run on time (after completely rebuilding the train system by herself, no less), and hooks up regularly with Lexa in the Matrix/VR/The Flame.

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And everybody will hate her for it and they'll spend Season 4 complaining about what she did to save their worthless asses. Bellamy will be all upset that she abandoned him again for the Grounders and he'll go back to Arkadia and he and Pike will get started on that final solution they've been secretly planning. This will be discussed within the text as evidence of "different perspectives". Kane and Abby will settle down on the rig with Luna and will regularly send Clarke fish. Murphy will become Clarke's most trusted advisor, Raven will build ALIE 3.0 and upload her consciousness into the new Matrix. Monty will devote his life to tending the extensive Skikru graveyard. Jasper drinks himself to death.

Can't wait.

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2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

 

I wasn't paying much attention and to be honest I fast-forwarded certain bits, so I would love an explanation why Bellamy shot Roan? To check if he wasn't AI controlled - how exactly? I don't get it. And why would Roan immediately believe Clarke's claim that everyone in Polis is now a mindless drone? Convenient much?

If I understood correctly, and I may not have, once people take the chip, they can't feel physical pain. After Bellamy shot Roan, Roan screamed out in pain, and is therefore not chipped.

I have no idea why Roan trusted Clarke, though. "Your friend just shot me and you're claiming that a couple of thousand people are mind controlled. Well. THAT sounds perfectly reasonable and convincing! Let's go!"

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On May 13, 2016 at 1:45 PM, Gabe Torres said:

Clarke being all I trust Bellamy... sigh. A lot of fandom thought Clarke started trusting Lexa to soon (I would argue Clarke only trusted Lexa as far as she would do what she considered the best for her people), but here Clarke isn't even allowed 1 second of mistrust despite that Bellamy betrayed her trust and was attempting to hand her over to Pike. I am completely surprised over just how much the show doesn't seem to think Bellamy should be redeemed or really did anything wrong with regards to the Grounders, Octavia or Clarke. The show got a lot of praise for presenting different narratives and motivations in regards of very questionable actions, but I feel like they bought too much into their own hype with the writers saying "it is all about perspectives". Like I am sure a pyromaniac got a perspective for why that hospital building should be put on fire, but it sure as fuck doesn't excuse his actions for then doing it.

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I have really missed having Clarke interact with her mother but I gotta say chip!Abby was not what I was dying for lol. That entire scene was brutal. It also shows again whom Clarke has become after landing on the Ground. She knows if she gives in everyone would be lost, so she doesn't give in.

I just hope in S4 the show will allow the characters to breath and lets us see the effects these things have on them proper. Saying a character is compartmentalizing when they seem to barely bat an eye is becoming a bit of a stretch. It feels too much like they are just doing these things cause plots demands it and it demands it now.

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Compared to S2, I'm not feeling that much in suspense. I think it is because ALIE is such a poorly defined villain and so her objectives and just what the heck is CoL etc. I feel like we are missing a whole mountain of information and exploration of things concerning her that we for some reason didn't get despite almost half a season of wandering in the woods.

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Is it just me or aren't we missing some build up to S4 with regards to 'new dangers'? I don't think I missed some clues or build up to be honest (though please share if there are anything). I'm guessing at the end of next episode we will be getting something out of the blue that will hint at danger to come in S4.

I couldn't tell because of the editing and lighting (the directing for this episode was pretty bad imo) but did Jaha fatally shot or not? Also not quite sure if Roan is alive or not?

Now that Lexa is gone, Clarke's back to being my fave, but boy, am I finding it hard to track with her. This Bellamy shite has tarnished everything it comes in contact with, and unfortunately Clarke's arc now is apparently to dispense 'forgiveness' on behalf of the victims and the audience towards Bellamy carte blanche because "she left"? I don't understand what the show is trying to do here, but they're definitely succeeding in insulting their audience. Hey guys? That's not how forgiveness works. Also--they were really effing heavy-handed with the "we don't shoot to kill--they're not our enemy." We know Bellamy, you really don't have to tell any of the people you are with that--they've never had that difficulty, save for Pike... and you.

The "trust" thing was also pure crap. Clarke's character hasn't been allowed to react to anything or anyone with anything other than guilt and shame. It's fricking ridiculous that this character who is depicted as a thinker hasn't taken any time (during any of the multiple rover trips or any other time) to think through any of the shit that's happened and hold onto any of her own resentment or questioning at least.

This season has had heavy-handed shipping moments on both sides of the spectrum. JRoth can maintain his stance of not pandering, but this season's rife with it and Clarke is looking like shit as a result. At this point--it needs to be dropped. If I have to suffer through Bellamy tears over his massacre problems, then please cut the teary looks towards Clarke--I've reached my max. And Clarke placating Bellamy can stop now, as well. That's why I'd rather not see season 4 deal with the fallout, because if it plays off between these two as it has so far--I can't anymore.

I'll agree with the feeling of having swung to and fro between Polis and Arkadia, driving through the backwoods in the Rover and having learned very little about anything in the interim. It's like the show didn't know whether to carry on with the plot or deal with character fallout, so it just plugged along failing to properly develop both and yet had plenty of time in the back end to do so, having plowed through everything in the front end.

Jaha was shot in some non-lethal way, because of course. It's weird that he groaned as he was shot and then passed out. Hannah kept chugging away with strangling Octavia with a bullet in her shoulder, so did Jaha just hit his head? Is he playing possum?

The season four throwaways we got were Emori's tech buyers and possibly (from Shay's story) submariners??? I've seen a few people through out the possibility of someone being behind ALIE as well, but if that's the case I'll audibly groan even louder than during last season's finale during the AI reveal.

Edited by Solace247
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8 hours ago, quarks said:

If I understood correctly, and I may not have, once people take the chip, they can't feel physical pain. After Bellamy shot Roan, Roan screamed out in pain, and is therefore not chipped.

I thought it might be something like this but it still makes no sense - people can and do fake pain when necessary. Good thing Bellamy isn't a soccer ref, he would fall for every dive.

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Exciting episode. I'm all hyped up for the finale, whatever it involves.

On 2016-05-13 at 4:20 AM, Nay said:

Don't think Roans fate is totally sealed, he wasn't dead when they picked him up so I think that one could be an 'actor availablity, where the season 4 story takes us'  decision the powers that be make over the filming break. 

Me, too. I think he's still alive.

On 2016-05-13 at 4:24 AM, thuganomics85 said:

That said, damn, credit to Clarke for not only not budging with mere torture, but even willing to let Abbie die, in order to protect everyone else.  Alie really doesn't know her that well, because that is Clarke.  At least I hope so.  I really did worry they were going to kidnap Bellamy and do it with him instead, and have her break, so thank you show for not destroying her character like that.

The forums crashed before I could say this a couple weeks ago, but when they had Kane on the cross, I was thinking, "Okay, they tortured him first so that he wouldn't be in his right mind and realize that Abby would rather die than see the whole human race take the chip." As hard as it was for Clarke, I think she could rest assured that, ultimately, Abby wouldn't have wanted her to throw away the only chance of defeating ALIE just to save her life.

On 2016-05-13 at 3:47 PM, kdm07 said:

Quoting myself to add: the second half of this season could've been achieved in 1 or 2 episodes to be completely honest. That's how much actually happened in all of these episodes apart from the ridiculous to and fros and the filler stuff.

I had that thought as well. Specifically when they doubled down on the plan to chip Ontari. I was like, "The whole last set of episodes only happened because you were completely sure you'd all be doomed if Ontari got the chip... now it's fine for Ontari to have the chip?" Luna seemed like an awesome character and I hope she comes back somehow, but that story line was a big waste of time.

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Well, at least we've gotten a couple of good episode, even in the pile of suck that is season 3. This wasn't a bad episode at all. I actually kind of enjoyed it, even with the continuation of the torture of everyone's characters. 

I'm not surprised Clarke didn't break. First off, her own mother led her husband to death and she didn't say anything about it. Secondly, I imagine Lexa's lesson about how love is weakness popped into Clarke's head. Lexa taught her about sacrifice and doing things for the greater good. She also had to witness Lexa's death from a bullet meant for her. Clarke knew what had to be done, and she knew that was not her mother at the moment, as I think she knew Abby would tell her to let her die to save everyone else. Also, everyone else was giving in way too easily to the chip. Someone had to be the first to not break. 

But man if I wasn't feeling for Clarke when she was being tortured by mother....or at least her mother's body. Abby's not going to feel great about herself when she comes out of the mind control.

Murphy probably should have waited a little longer to save everyone. Let Bellamy be tortured a little bit first. Seriously, at this point, I'm all for Bellamy getting what he deserves. Clarke is stupid for trusting him instantly, and I'm hating the Bellarke pairing the more they show it this season.

I love that Pike is now stuck with the woman who gladly will kill him after all of this. He can't be getting out of this alive.

So, Ontari's brain dead, so I assume Luna will come in to save the day?

Poor Harper; I can't imagine them letting Jasper kill her, and I can't imagine Raven or Monty destroying the machine. But then how do they get out of it?

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