S05.E19: Sisters

[Curio]

breast crickets and crypt sex

 

This might be the most concise and dementedly perfect way to describe this show.

[KingOfHearts]

 

breast crickets and crypt sex

 

This might be the most concise and dementedly perfect way to describe this show.

It's the perfect tagline for a family show. 

Edited April 25, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[ParadoxLost]

That's my theological analysis of a show with breast crickets and crypt sex.

 

Well, I'm going with Hermes, the trickster God and God of travel/transitions, being in control of how souls leave the Underworld.  And every once in a while there is a soul so Evil, that he makes it think its going to heaven and when it arrives in Hell he laughs his ass off.

[Shanna Marie]

And every once in a while there is a soul so Evil, that he makes it think its going to heaven and when it arrives in Hell he laughs his ass off.

This is my new head canon.

 

Also, they have stores in the Underworld? What do they use for money? How did David get that kind of money? Or was he able to buy baby wipes and diapers by breathing into a bottle?

[KingOfHearts]

 

Also, they have stores in the Underworld? What do they use for money? How did David get that kind of money? Or was he able to buy baby wipes and diapers by breathing into a bottle?

Why does James have a gun if no one in the Underworld can get hurt?

Edited April 25, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Lieutenant]

Cora getting a free pass into the light absolutely bombed what otherwise was a much improved episode compared to the last three weeks. I'm all for forgiveness and reconciliation, and I actually spared a charitable thought for the Mills girls during the big farewell scene. What I'm NOT down with is the total disregard for justice this show has. There is no way in hell Cora should have ever earned eternal peace.

Meanwhile, widely accepted arseholes like James, and truly repentant, or even downright innocent folks like Milah and Aunt Em are getting chucked into eternal zombie wanderings in the river of lost souls like it's no big deal. WHAT THE ACTUAL EFF?! If Cora gets to go into the light, then my favorite little Shit gets a happy ending too! Pan can hear the birdies chirping from the other side as we speak....

[Jul 68]

Why does James have a gun if no one in the Underworld can get hurt?

I thought it was a TASER. The ones that I see every day can look like a gun from a short distance, when holstered.

[thuganomics85]

Ha!  Of course, in this universe, Cora somehow ends up getting to "go into the light" and what into what I'm guessing will be her version of Heaven.  Classic Once Upon A Time.  The heroes get put through the wringer for one minor offense, while the villains can be redeemed and get their happy ending, after one episode where they act sorry and have their victims forgive them.  It happened with Cora, already is happening with Regina, and I'm sure Zelena and even Rumple will somehow get it. Hell, I wouldn't put it past this show to actually give one to Hades, once his arc is done.

 

All that said, it was great seeing Cora again and Barbara Hershey was great as always.  Young Regina and especially Young Zelena were well-cast, and made the flashbacks enjoyable enough.  And even regular Regina and Zelena finally moving forward worked; mainly due to Lana Parilla and Rebecca Mader doing good jobs.

 

So disappointed that this is already it for James.  I was getting a kick out of him, and I thought he would be a fun antagonist for a few more episodes; especially paired with Cruella.  Plus, it was nice for Josh Dallas to actually get more to do, besides just hang out in the background and look worried.  Sadly, James is already in the River of Lost Souls now.  At least Cruella escaped, because no one thought to maybe capture her, because you know she's just going to cause more problems.

 

That ending though!  Pan is back!   Yay, Pan!  Even with one line, Robbie A. Kay makes him way more creepy and sinister, then a lot of long-term baddies on this show and others.  Hope he actually gets to do his thing, and isn't quickly shuttered off next week.

Edited April 25, 2016 by thuganomics85

[KAOS Agent]

I've been doing my best to not read comments before I watch the ep, but I was spoiled on the Cora goes to heaven and I basically checked out on this episode. If there is absolutely no reason to be a good, moral person and sacrifice for others, then why would anyone even bother? Cora murdered an entire village including children. We saw their bodies. We saw her throw a woman out of the clock tower to her death. She had no regrets about that. Why should she care? But making sure her daughters are sisters (because she actually cared about her daughter) was all that was needed. It's pretty close to a deal breaker for me in my continuing to watch this show that there is zero justice.

 

A couple notes:

 

- The child actors were really good. They made the flashbacks tolerable.

 

- More Cruella! Why is everything in the woods with these people?

 

- Yay Pan! Throwing a bag over Zelena's head gives me life. 

 

- Why didn't Zelena just yell for Hades when confronted with Rumpel & Pan? He was right inside the door.

 

- Yet another Rumpel monologue over a sleeping Belle. Does it seem like he talks to Belle more when she's sleeping/unconscious than when she's awake?

Edited April 25, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Curio]

Yet another Rumpel monologue over a sleeping Belle. Does it seem like he talks to Belle more when she's sleeping/unconscious than when she's awake?

 

I feel like Rumple is eventually going to go full-on Weekend at Bernie's with Belle's unconscious body and drag her around everywhere instead of actually working hard to TLK her awake. It's a win-win for him because he gets to keep being a douchebag who uses Dark Magic, but he can still pretend like Belle cares and listens to him while she's sound asleep.

[Shanna Marie]

I feel like Rumple is eventually going to go full-on Weekend at Bernie's with Belle's unconscious body and drag her around everywhere instead of actually working hard to TLK her awake.

He can prop her up in a chair at the dining table and monologue at her at meals. He can sit her in a recliner in the living room and make pithy comments at her as he reads the newspaper. He can put her in bed and sit on the edge of the bed and give soul-searching soliloquies. It's really the perfect marriage.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm not sure why Cora let Young Regina play with Zelena. How long were they together? If Cora was trying to avoid a scandal, wouldn't she try to remove Zelena ASAP whether they realized they were sisters or not?

Edited April 25, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

If there is absolutely no reason to be a good, moral person and sacrifice for others, then why would anyone even bother?

 

And again, I must say that the notion of being good SOLELY because it will get you eternal bliss in the end as opposed to eternal damnation is a morally screwed-up notion in of itself.  Whatever happened to being a good, moral person just because it's right and who cares what you get out of it in the end?  Doing good just for Heaven seems pretty bad to me.

 

But then, I'm one of those people who thinks suffering for eternity isn't "justice" no matter what the person's crimes were.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Mathius

[CheshireCat]

KingOfHearts, on 24 Apr 2016 - 10:18 PM, said:

I find judging this episode hard. There many aspects I enjoyed (I'm a Regina/Cora/Zelena fan through and through), but there were many WTF moments. 

 

The flashback would have been interesting in theory. However, it was more like a cop-out to avoid writing any organic sisterhood for Regina and Zelena. Instead of showing them growing closer together, they got hit with a retcon memory that made everything better instantly. 

 

I think what they were trying to do is that Zelena claimed Regina never cared about her and giving them their memories back disproved that. It showed Zelena that Regina did care. Maybe Regina trying to make Zelena forget about Hades was a bit misguided but generally, can we really blame her? She just learned that Hades planned to use Zelena to get out of Storybrooke and leave everyone behind and that that included her son. And Regina has never been known for patience, and it's not like Emma or David came up with a better idea.

 

I actually enjoyed the episode. Liked the flashbacks, too, I just wish the episode would have been longer. Some of the scenes felt they deserved more attention. And if Cruella weren't a bad guy, I'd so be rooting for her to return to Storybrooke with the heroes. Can we maybe get her back to land of the living and redeem her?

I don't think they were implying that Regina redeemed Robin, I think they just wanted to point out the fact that Regina fell in love with a criminal, so Zelena can love Hades. I don't really see why it matters since both sisters aren't exactly saints either... But it was definitely worded weirdly.

 

And as I said, I think who gets to go where when they move on depends on the person who moves on as much as the persons around them. With the exception of David, everyone who helped someone move on wanted them to go to a better place, so they did everything they could so that it happened. David was self-defense, he gets a pass. Belle, in my opinion, wasn't self-defense. It was really odd.

But I also think that it's for the persons who get left behind as much as those who move on. Knowing that the people you love or care about are in a better place and are at peace helps you get over their loss. Granted, those losses have already been mourned but the characters also lost those people again because they were reunited and then had to let go again and now they know for sure that they're in a better place and don't have to wonder about it.

[Camera One]

And again, I must say that the notion of being good SOLELY because it will get you eternal bliss in the end as opposed to eternal damnation is a morally screwed-up notion in of itself.  Whatever happened to being a good, moral person just because it's right and who cares what you get out of it in the end?  Doing good just for Heaven seems pretty bad to me.

 

No one said people should do good just to get to Heaven.   I'm assuming the issue for most is that this "Heaven" lets in mass murderers even if they don't repent for those murders.  

Edited April 25, 2016 by Camera One

[Mathius]

No one said people should do good just to get to Heaven.   I'm assuming the issue for most is that this "Heaven" lets in mass murderers even if they don't repent for those murders.  

 

Except that Cora did repent. First she said that she was wrong in her entire outlook on life and that she wasted it destroying other people, and then she even said before crossing the bridge that she fully expected to go to Hell and that "whatever fate I get is what I deserve".  

 

She effed up in life, she knows she effed up in life, and she is sorry for it.  What else is she supposed to do?  Her victims aren't there with her, she can't make it up to them or bring them back to life. And for that matter, who would Cora going to Hell be helping anyway?  Again, her victims are still dead and Cora going to Hell changes nothing.  If their souls are supposed to get satisfaction from it, then we ought to have some indication they would even KNOW that it happened. 

 

Also, yes, TWO people on this thread precisely said that people should do good just to get to Heaven, because by their logic a person as evil as Cora getting into Heaven proves that "there's no point or reason to be good; everyone can just be bad knowing that they'll go to Heaven anyway", ignoring that there were circumstances justifying Cora going to Heaven despite the bad that she did (again, beyond repenting, she loved and was loved...loved by two people who were right there with her at the bridge. Love is the most powerful force in the world, remember?)

Edited April 25, 2016 by Mathius

[kili]

Cora didn't just send Zelena back to live in a hovel, she also sent her back to a father she knew physically abused her. At least when she left her at the cross-roads, she could have some optimism that she was sending her daughter to a better life. Now, she knows she's not.

 

Couldn't she at least have rigged her up a nicer family in Oz? Some parents play favourites, but Cora takes it to a new level.

 

David buys wipes and not diapers? Robin raised Roland in the woods without any of that stuff (does he even know what that stuff is? He was a parent for about 3 hours in our world). Shouldn't he just need formula? Where do the wipes even come from? Is there somebody like Cora toiling away in a wipe factory in the Underworld as some kind of punishment?

 

James and David are fighting and nobody helps David? At least Cruella reminded James about his knife. If I was a bad guy, I would never fight around the bay. The risks are too high. James should have just surrendered and lived to fight another day. I wish we had made more use of James in the Underworld. He is fun with Cruella. Maybe it was hard to book the actor....

 

Hook should have taken the cuff off of Emma immediately and that would be the end of it.

 

There are a lot of those anti-magic cuffs in the Underworld. Do they sell them in the vending machines?

 

Pan! I love that little shit. Sure, Hades knows what is going on everywhere in the Underworld except right outside his door.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Except that Cora did repent. First she said that she was wrong in her entire outlook on life and that she wasted it destroying other people, and then she even said before crossing the bridge that she fully expected to go to Hell and that "whatever fate I get is what I deserve".

I do believe that Cora was intended to be altruistically repentant. However, I find her redemption a tough sell since we saw her scheming, lying and manipulating in the same episode. Her big apology to Zelena was while she was trying to trick her into drinking a forgetting potion. So while it was later confirmed to be true, her feelings have been difficult to gauge accurately. Her love for Regina was very back-and-forth, her claims she changed in 5x12 were muffled by Black Tooth's damnation, etc. It seems all her learning and evolving happened offscreen. 

Edited April 25, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

her claims she changed in 5x12 were muffled by Black Tooth's damnation

 

Everything she did in that episode was because she was being coerced by Hades. I blame him more for that.

[blugirlami21]

My problem with Cora's redemption is it was just about what she did to her daughters. Which may be her biggest issue but she has never apologized for anything she did to all the other people she has hurt and/or killed.

I think the punishment should fit the crime. If that means you suffering for a while to repent so be it.

I also don't like the hero/villain double standard on this show. It seems all the villains have to do to be redeemed is only apologize for some of their transgressions. That got old when they first started Regina's redemption arc.

[Primetimer]

Zelena finally meets her long-lost mom, David encounters his long-lost twin, and Rumple...well, you'll see. To make things extra-awkward, only half of those people are technically alive!

Read the story

[legaleagle53]

Except that Cora did repent. First she said that she was wrong in her entire outlook on life and that she wasted it destroying other people, and then she even said before crossing the bridge that she fully expected to go to Hell and that "whatever fate I get is what I deserve".  

 

She effed up in life, she knows she effed up in life, and she is sorry for it.  What else is she supposed to do?  Her victims aren't there with her, she can't make it up to them or bring them back to life. And for that matter, who would Cora going to Hell be helping anyway?  Again, her victims are still dead and Cora going to Hell changes nothing.  If their souls are supposed to get satisfaction from it, then we ought to have some indication they would even KNOW that it happened. 

 

Because while mercy can temper justice, mercy can never rob justice.  Otherwise, there would be no point to divine law. That's why everyone is objecting so vehemently to letting Cora go to Paradise after just a few mea culpas.  That's not true, complete repentance, because true repentance involves much more than merely feeling remorse for the sin and confessing it. It also involves forsaking the sin (that is, making a deliberate choice never to commit the sin again) and making restitution for the sin to the extent that restitution is possible.  Cora could take neither of the last two steps because it was too late for her to do that once she herself was already dead.  There's a reason that many of us are taught that this life is the time to prepare to meet God by repenting of our sins, not after we're dead.

Edited April 25, 2016 by legaleagle53

[kili]

Why does David have to go to the store to buy stuff? Couldn't Emma, Regina or Zelena have magicked up whatever Robin needed? They seem to be able to conjure up everything else. Probably best not to rely on Hell's General Store if you can avoid it.

 

Pan was able to get out of the anti-magic cuff because he created it. Did he create all the anti-magic cuffs in the Underworld? Where has he been for the last few days while his son has been monkeying around in his store. Did he take a vacation?

[KAOS Agent]

 

Also, yes, TWO people on this thread precisely said that people should do good just to get to Heaven, because by their logic a person as evil as Cora getting into Heaven proves that "there's no point or reason to be good; everyone can just be bad knowing that they'll go to Heaven anyway", ignoring that there were circumstances justifying Cora going to Heaven despite the bad that she did (again, beyond repenting, she loved and was loved...loved by two people who were right there with her at the bridge. Love is the most powerful force in the world, remember?)

 

No, I asked why one would be good and sacrifice if it ultimately meant nothing. If bad things happen to the people I care about because I was a good person, then in this show's morality that's entirely on me and I'm to blame. However, it's no problem for me to be selfish and fuck other people over so long as my family loves me. In fact, if their love is all that matters for me to be in a better place in the end, then it would actually behoove me to do exactly that. Screw everyone who gets in the way of my loved ones' happiness. That's the justice of Once. Fuck everyone and then apologize to one person and you're gold. 

 

I've been consistent on this from the beginning of the arc. I didn't like Henry going to the light, I objected strenuously to Liam moving on and I despise that Cora moved on as well. 

[Rumsy4]

James and David are fighting and nobody helps David? At least Cruella reminded James about his knife. ....

Hook should have taken the cuff off of Emma immediately and that would be the end of it.

He did take the cuffs off immediately. David stopped Emma from using magic to save him because he wanted to try and get through to James.

Also, yes, TWO people on this thread precisely said that people should do good just to get to Heaven, because by their logic a person as evil as Cora getting into Heaven proves that "there's no point or reason to be good; everyone can just be bad knowing that they'll go to Heaven anyway", ignoring that there were circumstances justifying Cora going to Heaven despite the bad that she did (again, beyond repenting, she loved and was loved...loved by two people who were right there with her at the bridge. Love is the most powerful force in the world, remember?)

Speaking for myself, it's hard to root for Cora moving to the Light. YMMV. The Show did a shitty job convincing me because there is zero world-building.

No, I asked why one would be good and sacrifice if it ultimately meant nothing. If bad things happen to the people I care about because I was a good person, then in this show's morality that's entirely on me and I'm to blame. However, it's no problem for me to be selfish and fuck other people over so long as my family loves me. In fact, if their love is all that matters for me to be in a better place in the end, then it would actually behoove me to do exactly that. Screw everyone who gets in the way of my loved ones' happiness. That's the justice of Once. Fuck everyone and then apologize to one person and you're gold.

Taking this to the Morality thread.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Mathius]

"If Belle preferred eternal slumber to one more moment with you, that's hardly my fault. I'd say her judgement's improving." THIS LINE WAS AMAZING. It's times like these that I enjoy Zelena.

 

Agreed.  About time someone acknowledged Belle's judgement is crap.

 

There's a reason that many of us are taught that this life is the time to prepare to meet God by repenting of our sins, not after we're dead.

 

And yeah, we oughta move the Cora discussion to the Morality thread.  I especially have words for this...

Edited April 25, 2016 by Mathius

[Camera One]

What could Cora have done to deserve going to Heaven more?  At the very least, do more time in the Underworld, or do something selfless.  I suppose this universe is just supposed to have no justice for the victims. 

 

I didn't buy her instant regret.  In the farmhouse, she was giving Regina the sneaky eye when she was hugging Zelena.  So she wasn't genuine then, but she was genuine five minutes later?  You can't write a believable redemption of someone as heartlessly evil as Cora in a single episode, and it can't be earned by simply apologizing to her two daughters. 

 

The insta-sisterly bond via untold flashback story was a little cheap, but the actresses did a good job of making you feel they now did see themselves as sisters.  It just seems like Young Regina could easily have been Young Snow.  There wasn't any distinguishing character trait there.

 

James was fun, but I was hoping to see Emma discover herself that it wasn't her father.  They even had her thinking it was David when the guy pulled the gun.  You'd think they would develop a safe word knowing James was around town.

 

How did they know where Cora was?  Now there's no problem getting down to the underground?  They need to spell out Hades' ability in terms of having "eyes and ears everywhere".  Or are we supposed to think he's so in love that he's not paying attention.  And he can't even see through the door at Granny's to see Rumple and Peter Pan putting a bag over Zelena's head?  Riiiiiight...

[kili]

He did take the cuffs off immediately. David stopped Emma from using magic to save him because he wanted to try and get through to James.

I missed that.

 

That was pretty stupid of David. He should have at least let Emma magic them away from the water's edge. I thought at first he might not have known about the water, but he seemed to know what was going on when it happened. Couldn't Emma have stepped in at that point and prevented the fall?

 

I loved the effect when Robin shot an arrow into James's heart and he pulled it out like nothing.  Robin wasn't playing around.

 

Cruella and James kissing reminded me of the evil King/Queen from Chitty-Chitty Bang-Bang for some reason. 

[janett snakehole]

I don't know, I thought the episode was super boring. I'm sure that if I cared about Regina/Zelena I would have enjoyed it, but it was all so over the top and super quickly developed that I just didn't care. The flashback was fine, I think the young sisters did well, but their extreme distress about being separated made me laugh as did the makeup. I laughed during some of the current scenes as well (none of the moments that were meant to be laughed at).

 

Why do they write the characters as such idiots? Really would Emma still think James was her dad after he pulled a gun on her? She should have know the second he pulled the gun out. And then David refused help from Emma why exactly? Now his brother is in the river of lost souls because he wanted to punch it out. The shot of Emma x Killian snuggling in the background was fucking weird. Why would you just cuddle as you watch your dad and newly met uncle fight each other? Then we have Zelena standing in front of Underbrooke Granny's without Hades noticing and she doesn't think to call out to him or walk away even.

 

I wasn't moved by anything. I wasn't particularly entertained. 5B overall has been really disappointing to me. 

[KAOS Agent]

That was pretty stupid of David. He should have at least let Emma magic them away from the water's edge. I thought at first he might not have known about the water, but he seemed to know what was going on when it happened. Couldn't Emma have stepped in at that point and prevented the fall?

 

It was a little silly of Emma to say that nothing could have been done since she could have done numerous things with magic that would have allowed James not to fall in the water. Why not just poof them into the woods and let them fight it out there? It's also stupid that last season Emma was the absolute worst and had "crossed a line" (according to the writers) when she pushed Cruella off the cliff while trying to save her son, but David condemning his brother to a fate worse than death was totally cool because "some people just can't move on". Whatever, show.

Edited April 25, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

Cruella even got to slap Emma, and she heroically couldn't fight back because pushing someone off a cliff out of self-defense deserves a spanking.

 

Regina named her doll "Isabella", while Belle lay sleeping.  Regina hurt herself while trying to animate Isabelle.  Is this foreshadowing for Rumple?  Or does this foreshadow a friendship between Regina and Belle?

 

So Killian thinks it would be okay to kill Zelena.  That deserves a spanking as well.

[Rumsy4]

Cruella went to my shit list after punching Emma.

[KAOS Agent]

 

So Killian thinks it would be okay to kill Zelena.  That deserves a spanking as well.

 

And this was another one of those Emma was the worst for planning to kill Zelena, but Hook's all cool with killing her now. It was supposed to be funny I think, but that's two parallel situations where Emma is a horrible monster, but anyone else is free to do it.

[twoods]

This episode flew by. Kind of mad that Cora got her happy ending after killing Daniel and other people, but she did end up bringing the sisters together. I've always wanted Regina and Zelena to get along and be sisters. Didn't think that Rumple would be involved now, and his super creepy father. Pan still gives me the chills- it's those dead eyes.

Edited April 25, 2016 by twoods

[Mathius]

And this was another one of those Emma was the worst for planning to kill Zelena, but Hook's all cool with killing her now. It was supposed to be funny I think, but that's two parallel situations where Emma is a horrible monster, but anyone else is free to do it.

Agreed. Though I did get a laugh out of his "it'd be a step in the right direction", as if he is well aware that killing her wouldn't completely solve the problem since they're in the Underworld and she'd just stay there even if he killed her.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Mathius

[Camera One]

Imagine an alternate universe where A&E actually cared about Prince Charming and this episode was called "Brothers" and focused on James and David becoming friends when they were younger in a re-telling of "The Prince and The Pauper" before losing their memories of their friendship.

[Rumsy4]

Imagine an alternate universe where A&E actually cared about Prince Charming and this episode was called "Brothers" and focused on James and David becoming friends when they were younger in a re-telling of "The Prince and The Pauper" before losing their memories of their friendship.

I hear laughing in my head (misquoting Pheobe Buffay).

[AudienceofOne]

I was bored as hell in this episode right up until Cruella stumbled into the forest to steal Pistachio and snarked about it. And then I was bored again.

 

Not that the writers and the actors weren't selling the hell out of Cora's "unfinished business" (not redemption, just FYI) but I'm a little tired of this family taking over all the plotlines. I didn't need Zelena to be in this season - or last season for that matter - so I'm struggling to care.

 

I was fine with the overall message of the episode - that it's never too late to choose to do the right thing - and the way it related to the Zelena arc. And Pan is so delightfully evil. But I'm struggling to care about the storylines this season. And I'm still waiting for Hades to be given a coherent motive for 3/4 of his behaviour.

[PixiePaws1]

Why do they write the characters as such idiots? Really would Emma still think James was her dad after he pulled a gun on her? She should have know the second he pulled the gun out

Well there is that pesky heart control thing you have to look out for.....

[Olivia Y]

How long did Regina and Zelena even know each other (as kids) for? It seems like after Regina was healed, she was still recovering when Zelena opened that box and the whole Cora confrontation happened, so...a couple of days maybe? And they only knew they were sisters for a few minutes or so? And they managed to form this almighty bond? Blood sisters or not that's quick.

 

I guess that's something to give this show, /all/ of their super-powerful 'love' (not just the romantic, TLK-inducing sort) can be forged in the same amount of time most people take to make a moderately complex dessert. 

Cruella went to my shit list after punching Emma.

Though, I do like it that Emma didn't so much as flinch.

[Selina K]

Aside from Pan in the last bit of the episode, I think my other favorite moment in an episode I clearly disliked was Emma's reaction to James and Cruella. That was a great JMo "wtf?" reaction shot.

[StaceyNotStacie]

I didn't mind the Regina and Zelena portion of the story, but was disappointed in the David and James story. I would have liked James interacting with everyone a bit longer, including a scene with Regina just for the snark. I'm wondering if because of this, they will try to free the lost souls.

Looking forward to more Pan.

[maryle]

I read with interest the debate about Pardon and thought I wanted to share a personal story to show my problem when the way Once had dealt with Cora going to the better place because her unfinished business was finish.

My aunt was alcooolic for the entre childhood of two of my cousins.

She quit when the youngest was 14 year old.

The two did suffer because of it. My aunt after she became sober was really sorry and did everything for her children ( buying université free...) and help others people trying to stay sober but only one of her children really forgot her the youngest and had a real relationship with her.

The oldest never really pardon her.

My aunt died from pulmory cancer without closure with my cousin.

So, in the Once universe I am guessing she couldnt go to Heaven or wathever the better place is.

But Cora can go because she is sorry one second.

It is hard to swallow for me because in real life real repentance take a life to achieve.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

My three favorite things from this episode:

(1) in the flashback when Regina and Zelena were playing princess together, they had on the kind of realistically bad makeup that kids put on themselves and each other

(2) Emma's "ugh, gross!" face when she saw Cruella and James kissing

(3) Zelena telling Gold that it wasn't her fault that Belle would rather spend eternity unconscious than spend another second with hm

[Panopticon]

LOL, my nitpick of the week is exactly the same as the like above me in this thread...

 

Much like I believe that Cora would  have had Regina taught to dance, I believe that preteen Regina would have already known how to put on lipstick without smearing it everywhere. Zelena, who'd spent her life in a shack in the woods with her drunken father-- sure, she'd put on makeup like a kid who'd never touched it before. But the girl named Regina who was constantly taught about the importance of appearances and status and physical possessions would have prided herself on knowing how to do it properly. 

 

I did appreciate this show's ongoing uncanny ability to cast younger versions of their adult characters.

[YaddaYadda]

What the flashback did for me is reaffirm how much of an asshole Cora is, because Cora had a father who was a drunkard, and who mistreated her.

 

Zelena was called wicked because of her magic. Her mother who protected her from her father wasn't there anymore to do that, and the man makes a point of reinforcing that point. And even with that, Zelena's magic was good. She healed someone with it. 

 

Knowing all of that, Cora chose to return Zelena to where she came from to keep up appearances, to continue her social climbing because nothing less than what she had set her sights on was going to be enough for her. If she wasn't going to be queen, Regina would have to do come hell or high water. 

 

Fine, the writers wanna whitewash everything that Cora did to others. But her daughter's life was a nightmare because of her, and 2 separate decisions she made for her Cora's own good, to secure Cora's future, to make sure Cora was going to not just be okay in her life, but great.

 

Go into the light, Cora. Go into the light. 

 

I get that this is a show about forgiveness and hope, but fuck! Not everything can be forgiven, and not everyone be forgiven for their actions.

[Chaos Theory]

Did anyone actually go to the bad place in this arc? It seems everyone gets redeemed, except those thrown in the river. Maybe it doesn't actually exist then, because if Cora doesn't deserve it, no one does.

I actually really liked Cora's ending and I know I will be in the minority but my feelings on the show is forgiveness is its own reward. Sometimes all it takes to find peace is to forgive the one who hurt you the most and to accept their forgiveness.

I have noticed that some of the people who are stuck are the ones who can do neither.

[RadioGirl27]

I'm so mad with Cora going into the light while Milah, Gaston and Aunt Em are all in the river of souls. I was enjoying the episode until that, but ugh. I hope Pan doen't end up going into the light too.

 

The two kids were great, and Cruella was, once again, fantastic. But I expected more from the James/David confrontation.

[withanaich]

I hope Pan doesn't end up going into the light too.

 

Oh, sure, Pan's probably going into the light too. Why the hell not. And his "redemption" will happen during the course of a single conversation, where he says "oh yeah, sorry about all that heinous stuff I did," and Rumple will forgive him and promise to be a better man too (until he gets yet another re-set) because now he can let go of his Daddy issues. Setting aside the question of whether people deserve to be forgiven after a lifetime of outright EVIL just because they feel bad about it now (um, NO) ... the way this show handles these redemption "arcs" (no, you cannot develop a character in a single episode or scene) is just such bullshit.

Edited April 25, 2016 by withanaich

[Curio]

I need to rewatch the episode. But I didn't get the impression that they were saying Regina had redeemed Robin. 

 

I would agree with you if the conversation had only included this dialogue...

Regina: I know you don't believe me, Zelena, but I am trying to do what's best for you.

Zelena: And how do you know that isn't being with Hades?

Regina: Because he's a villain!

Zelena: Yeah, but he doesn't always have to be. Like with you and Robin.

 

If they had stopped the conversation right there, that would have been perfect because the audience would assume Zelena was talking about how Robin helped redeem Regina. But they went on to include this part...

Zelena: You two helped each other. He used to be a bloody thief!

Regina: Yes, who stole from the rich to give to the poor. You want to redeem the God of Death.

 

By adding the second part of the dialogue, the writers seem to be implying that Robin was just as much of a villain as Regina and that Regina had a hand in redeeming him, albeit not as much as Zelena would have to redeem Hades. By not using Regina as the example of a villain being redeemed in Outlaw Queen's situation, the writers are whitewashing her past actions again by erasing her history. The writers could have easily had Zelena call Regina out and remind her that she also used to be a villain who was redeemed by Robin, so why shouldn't she give Hades a chance? But the writers didn't do that and instead brought up Robin's past as a thief. It also doesn't help that Regina comes off as holier-than-thou again when she's yelling at Zelena for dating a villain when she was one of the worst villains on the show. I don't know if it's the writers setting Regina up for a fall or if it's just the Regina Exception Clause where the writers don't realize how hypocritical Regina sounds in these sisterly conversations.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Curio