S01.E18: Paula Needs To Get Over Josh!

[Eolivet]

That was so refreshing to read, Bline -- thanks for posting it. (I'll pat myself subtly on the back that I called CXG a coming-of-age story months ago and pretend that a zillion other posters didn't do the same thing months before me.)

I'm here to stick up for Paula. The thing I think the show has done very well with Paula is they've managed to separate her from Rebecca's "crazy." Paula isn't involved (as far as I can remember) in Rebecca's therapy attempts or when she ate that pill she found on the floor or when she got depressed earlier in the season. So, Paula doesn't know the extent of Rebecca's issues.

But this is where I think Rebecca's mental status comes into play in terms of Paula crossing the line. I don't think Paula knows that Rebecca either didn't know or willfully disregarded that a line actually existed. Paula acts as if Rebecca had seen the line all these times (which Paula herself did and is acknowledging, like a normal person) and said nothing until now, whereas Rebecca is acting like this is the first time she's ever seen the line. Again, it only emphasizes that I don't think Paula knows Rebecca as well as she thinks she does.

But I don't think Paula deserves hate for acting like a normal person, and expecting the same from Rebecca -- not knowing that was impossible for her.

[taragel]

On 4/29/2016 at 2:56 PM, Bline said:

It's interesting how so many people assume the series' endgame involves Rebecca in a relationship, especially with Greg. Greg will probably make a comeback sometime in the series but I doubt he's the endgame.  And expect a third guy to appear, probably in the third season. ... Based on these comments by the show's creators, I bet by series end, Rebecca finally realizes that she first needs to be happy with herself before she can consider a relationship with anyone.  Maybe in season 4 Rebecca starts taking her sessions with Dr. Akopian seriously. 

So much of the show right now revolves around romance, so it's no surprise that's the main focus of speculation. The mental health stuff and the friendship with Paula are also elements, but they're definitely backburnered while Rebecca chases happiness in the form of Josh Chan (and/or Greg, depending on the week). For the audience to really see it as a Coming of Age story first and foremost, the show will have to evolve to focus more heavily on the mental health aspect--like showing those therapy sessions you mention, or delving more into her family or her Paula codependency. 

And I do kind of wonder how that will work given they have focused so heavily on the romance to maintain the light, comic tone. There will come a time when viewers will be upset if there's no payoff to the romance(s) possibly, or when the show gets progressively heavier when Rebecca is forced to confront and deal with her problems. Will the people who first tuned in follow it into a subgenre change/darker waters? I don't know. It's a risk.

[cleo57]

3 hours ago, taragel said:

So much of the show right now revolves around romance, so it's no surprise that's the main focus of speculation. The mental health stuff and the friendship with Paula are also elements, but they're definitely backburnered while Rebecca chases happiness in the form of Josh Chan (and/or Greg, depending on the week).

I think this show is flirting with Poe's Law when it comes to its romantic comedy elements. It borrows from them so heavily that sometimes it's indistinguishable from the thing it's trying to subvert.

Is the show a coming of age tale? Sure. Rebecca is a whip smart young woman who clings to adolescent fantasies and needs to learn that happiness doesn't always come in the form of romance. That kind of sounds like the log line of a treacly young adult novel, but add clinical depression and a few terrible life choices to the mix and maybe it becomes something dark and subversive. But this coming of age narrative is refracted through musical theater and romantic comedy cliches. And the show borrows liberally. Greg runs to the courthouse to declare his feelings. Rebecca and Josh have a semi-romantic fireside moment. Greg and Rebecca kiss in an almost direct recreation of a famous Ross and Rachel scene. Etc. These are scenes that could fit comfortably in a standard romantic comedy, and whatever element of subversiveness they have is somewhat undermined by their adherence to the genre. Sure, on a macro level it's, ahem, a little more nuanced than that. The fireside moment is the result of thousands of dollars and plenty of scheming, and her big kiss with Greg happened right after the dream ghost told her to forget about the guys. But on a micro level, it's hard not to react to these scenes like you would when watching a regular romcom.

I think part of the disconnect is that the show isn't subversive in the way we've come to expect. It doesn't flout our expectations by taking well-worn tropes and flipping them on their heads. It takes these tropes at face value and then asks: what could motivate a person to act like this in real life? Why would the funny bff be over-invested in their friend's love life? Maybe she's a lonely middle aged woman with a failing marriage and an insatiable need to live out her own unfulfilled dreams via an unsuspecting friend. Why would a smart, professional woman move across the country for a boy she hardly knows? Maybe she's clinically depressed, desperately unhappy, and looking for some small sliver of hope to latch onto. Why is the sarcastic bartender who eventually gets the girl so sarcastic? Maybe he's an almost-alcoholic with a sick dad and a terminal aversion to emotions. Whatever subversiveness this show has comes from deepening pre-established tropes, from coloring in threadbare character types with psychological nuance and emotional authenticity.

Add to this the fact that the show looks like a low budget Meg Ryan movie and I'm not surprised that people are semi-invested in the romantic pairings. Compare it to a show like Girls. Girls is also a coming of age story about a 20 something woman searching for happiness. Her romantic relationships are also lenses through which to gauge her personal development. But it looks and feels like an indie dramedy, and it largely eschews the romcom beats so prevalent in Crazy Ex Girlfriend. As a viewer, it's easy to maintain distance from the romances on Girls, because they zig and zag in a way that undermines my fundamental desire, as a human and a girl, to watch people on my TV set kiss. 

Is Crazy Ex Girlfriend a coming of age story? I hope so! I would be very happy to watch that show! I'm just not quite sure that it is that show. Not yet, at least.

[Bline]

22 hours ago, Eolivet said:

That was so refreshing to read, Bline -- thanks for posting it. (I'll pat myself subtly on the back that I called CXG a coming-of-age story months ago and pretend that a zillion other posters didn't do the same thing months before me.)

I'm here to stick up for Paula. The thing I think the show has done very well with Paula is they've managed to separate her from Rebecca's "crazy." Paula isn't involved (as far as I can remember) in Rebecca's therapy attempts or when she ate that pill she found on the floor or when she got depressed earlier in the season. So, Paula doesn't know the extent of Rebecca's issues.

But this is where I think Rebecca's mental status comes into play in terms of Paula crossing the line. I don't think Paula knows that Rebecca either didn't know or willfully disregarded that a line actually existed. Paula acts as if Rebecca had seen the line all these times (which Paula herself did and is acknowledging, like a normal person) and said nothing until now, whereas Rebecca is acting like this is the first time she's ever seen the line. Again, it only emphasizes that I don't think Paula knows Rebecca as well as she thinks she does.

But I don't think Paula deserves hate for acting like a normal person, and expecting the same from Rebecca -- not knowing that was impossible for her.

Thanks Eolivet.  :)

Paula is definitely an interesting character who's known more for her actions than her motivations.  I think that's part of the reason why people consider her the "villain". 

In a recent interview, DLC gave some insight regarding her character and why she seems like Rebecca's enabler: 

Quote

Tell-Tale TV: Your character starts the series as a bit of an antagonist to Rebecca. In your opinion of the character, what would you say makes Paula change her mind about Rebecca, leading her to suddenly being an ally? 

Champlin: Paula is a big romantic, and I also think she’s a very lonely person who lives with a lot of regret. If she could get into a time machine and go back to when she was Rebecca’s age, she would definitely do a lot of things differently. She would be braver and pursue her own happiness more if given a second chance. So when she finally uncovers Rebecca’s “true love plan,” she sees in her not only a kindred spirit, but a potential protégé in a way. Which then slowly morphs into a surrogate daughter dynamic as Season One goes along.

So when she sees Rebecca doing the things that she was afraid to do when she was in her 20s, she develops an instant respect for (and a need to protect) her that surprises everyone, including herself. And selfishly…subconsciously, Paula feels like if she can help Rebecca not lose courage in the pursuit of happiness and true love (like she did), she can somehow make sense and even give purpose to what I imagine is a long list of painful missed opportunities and fear based choices in her own past.

In the same interview, DLC also comments on the rage Paula feels when she sings "Paula's Turn": 

Quote

Tell-Tale TV: You’ve had so many phenomenal performances this season, ‘Face Your Fears,’ ‘His Status is Preferred,’ ‘Paula’s Turn,’ and some great group numbers. Which was your favorite?  

Champlin: Oooh. That’s a real tough call. I love all of them. They’re all so different. I’d have to say “After Everything I’ve Done For You” is my favorite Paula song from Season One.

First of all, I just think Rachel did an absolutely stunning job composing this “Paula’s Turn.” It’s based on a very famous song from the musical GYPSY and not only did she manage to capture the essence of the song, she managed to condense it into half the time. The original “Rose’s Turn” is about 5+ minutes long, divided into 6 distinct melodic sections. She somehow managed to incorporate all of the above in under 3 minutes. The difficulty and musical mastery of that can never be praised enough, in my opinion.

Second of all, it was just a thrill for me to incorporate musically what Aline Brosh McKenna (our show runner and the director of this finale episode) calls “Middle Aged Woman Rage.” It’s a very real thing that is rarely shown on TV because three-dimensional middle-aged woman characters in general, are rarely even seen on TV, let alone allowed to feel a full range of human emotion. We all made the choice to ‘go to 11’ on it and let the chips fall where they may as far as how people would respond to it.

And it’s fascinating to me that while the response to that song was overwhelmingly positive as a musical number? A large percentage of viewers interpreted it ultimately as a “crazy villain” song and not as an earned “ultimatum” song. Which just shows how far we need to go as a society in allowing women past the age of 35 to be angry without labeling them as “insane” or “evil,” rather than justifiably misunderstood and frustrated. I believe there’s a lack of empathy and an unspoken rule out there that “women over 35 must be seen and not heard” and I’m happy to be a small part in breaking it, if I can. 

Source:  http://telltaletv.com/2016/04/crazy-ex-girlfriend-donna-lynne-champlin-talks-paula-proctor-and-middle-aged-woman-rage-exclusive-interview/

In the above context it is interesting how Paula gets a lot of the blame, but Rebecca gets a pass for her actions.  By rights, no one should be sympathetic towards Rebecca. 

In the second season, however, both RB and ABM said that the viewers will be seeing more of Paula's backstory. 

Edited May 2, 2016 by Bline
additional informaiton

[Bline]

8 hours ago, taragel said:

So much of the show right now revolves around romance, so it's no surprise that's the main focus of speculation. The mental health stuff and the friendship with Paula are also elements, but they're definitely backburnered while Rebecca chases happiness in the form of Josh Chan (and/or Greg, depending on the week). For the audience to really see it as a Coming of Age story first and foremost, the show will have to evolve to focus more heavily on the mental health aspect--like showing those therapy sessions you mention, or delving more into her family or her Paula codependency. 

And I do kind of wonder how that will work given they have focused so heavily on the romance to maintain the light, comic tone. There will come a time when viewers will be upset if there's no payoff to the romance(s) possibly, or when the show gets progressively heavier when Rebecca is forced to confront and deal with her problems. Will the people who first tuned in follow it into a subgenre change/darker waters? I don't know. It's a risk.

Definitely true.  For the record, ABM and RB said that the first season was "prologue" and that the "meat" of the story begins in the second.  Specifically, they will explore issues regarding Rebecca's and Josh's relationship primarily, and examine both Paula's and Darryl's stories respectively. 

Quote

What can you say about where next season is going?

Half of this first season was all about denial. Rebecca was lying to herself. She was lying about even liking Josh. Next season we'll really be playing with the idea that all of the cards are on the table. They've had sex. She's openly in love with him. What happens now? There are so many scenes and scenarios we couldn't do this season because Rebecca wouldn't even admit that she was in town for Josh. There's just a lot we haven't explored in the ways that characters change, the ways that Rebecca causes those characters to change.

Source:  http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/crazy-girlfriend-rachel-bloom-talks-884798

Quote

When asked about the plot for season 2, the co-creator teased a lot of ramifications for Josh, Rebecca and Greg. She said: "There's going to be ramifications for everybody. She's going to try and get underneath whether Josh really does feel the same way about her."

Source:  http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/crazy-ex-girlfriend-season-2-showrunner-teases-ramification-rebecca-josh-greg-1556178

It is rather brilliant, resetting the whole first season's Rebecca - Josh dynamic with them as a couple.  Of course, Rebecca's issues about abandonment, coupled with her obsessive tendencies, depression and Type - A personality should prove entertaining, especially when it seems that they will be doubling-down on the "crazy ex-girlfriend" premise. 

I don't think the show will become "darker until the final season (season 4).  I think that's when Rebecca bottoms out (she and Josh break up?  Josh returns to Valencia?) and she is forced to face her issues.  It wouldn't make sense for it to happen earlier in the series. 

[theatremouse]

1 hour ago, Bline said:

Paula is definitely an interesting character who's known more for her actions than her motivations.  I think that's part of the reason why people consider her the "villain". 

I think Paula having a song that is a riff on Rose's Turn is absolutely perfect for explaining Paula, even before they did it, even temporarily ignoring all occasions on which Paula slipped and kept referring to herself as Rebecca's mother kindasorta. Paula is only a "villain" insomuch as Rose is the villain of Gypsy. She's shown herself to be tortured in very much the same way as Rose. It's a perfect analogy, for me.

(Of course I'm a smidge biased as that is my favourite musical.)

[taragel]

3 hours ago, Bline said:

I don't think the show will become "darker until the final season (season 4).  I think that's when Rebecca bottoms out (she and Josh break up?  Josh returns to Valencia?) and she is forced to face her issues.  It wouldn't make sense for it to happen earlier in the series. 

Though I hope they will, I'm not sure they'll get four whole seasons. (And I doubt she'd still be with Josh for 3 full seasons...I know growth will be slow but that would be some glacial pacing right there.) Which means their hand may be forced into choosing a happy for now (romance with someone) versus a happily ever after (Rachel finding true mental balance/self worth/lack of depression) just out of timing. It's unfortunate that the way TV shows are produced/written/judged by network execs doesn't really allow for satisfying conclusive endings a lot of the time. 

That being said I'm not sure how far they'd have to go to show us that Rachel has "dealt with her own issues" as everyone seems to say she needs to do (esp. before she finds romance). That's not the stuff tv dramas are usually made of so I'm curious to see what that looks like. Watching her talk things out in therapy each week would likely just get old. Dealing with things in a mature, rational, adult way all the time doesn't generally equal the kind of drama fictional narratives thrive on. The amount of time you need to put into to dealing with mental health (in terms of many years of treatment/therapy) aren't conducive to an on-the-verge-of-being-cancelled TV show's life expectancy. What does a healing/healed Rebecca look like? And what does it do to the show's dynamics, since it does operate in that co-opted zany rom com space? It's an interesting question and I hope we get enough episodes to see them go there. 

That being said, I'm still a proponent of the idea that everyone has flaws and is a work in progress (or in the show's parlance, "everyone's a little bit crazy')...and that doesn't mean they don't deserve satisfying romance with someone. This idea that Rebecca can't be with Josh or Greg (or vice versa) until they unpack all their issues and are just perfectly well-adjusted folks seems silly to me. I'd be satisfied if the show got her to a place where she could stop self-sabotaging her relationships, but beyond that...I'm not sure I buy that all thoughts of love = happiness need to be stripped away.

My guess is the show will build to a reveal that Rachel realizes she has actually made a happy life for herself in West Covina all along despite the constant distraction of what happens with Josh or Greg. She did what she needed to do to be happy--she's not a workaholic, alone in a cold big city, she has loving and supportive friends and coworkers who serve as her defacto family. So one day (when the show is canceled or they're too exhausted to go on) she's going to look around and realize that this familial love equals happiness, not necessarily the passionate love she was seeking. (But hey, I like the whole enchilada, I think it'd be great if she ultimately finds passionate love with Josh Chan, too. ;)

Edited May 3, 2016 by taragel

[ToxicUnicorn]

Good post, taragel.  I also hope we're not subjected to lots of therapy sessions.  First of all, I'm not crazy about the character of Dr. Akopian.  Second, I'd be perfectly happy with the show using a song to give Rebecca little epiphanies so her character can make little leaps toward trying to be more functional.  (I'm also ok if she slips backwards plenty of times.)

I see this as a musical first, a subversive comedy second, and a character development vehicle third.  I tried to watch a show about a person in therapy and it got cancelled pretty quickly (it was that show with Alan Rickman).  My favorite movie about therapy was the admittedly very silly Analyze This.  Hey, I think therapy in real life can be incredibly useful, but I really don't want to watch the work that is absolutely necessary (and dead serious) when I'm in the mood for silly.

I am such a fan of these quotes above from the interview with Donna:

Quote

First of all, I just think Rachel did an absolutely stunning job composing this “Paula’s Turn.” It’s based on a very famous song from the musical GYPSY

Agreed.  That adaptation was spot on.

Quote

Second of all, it was just a thrill for me to incorporate musically what Aline Brosh McKenna (our show runner and the director of this finale episode) calls “Middle Aged Woman Rage.” It’s a very real thing that is rarely shown on TV because three-dimensional middle-aged woman characters in general, are rarely even seen on TV, let alone allowed to feel a full range of human emotion.

These people are making this show with such intelligence and deliberation.  I loved this.

Quote

And it’s fascinating to me that while the response to that song was overwhelmingly positive as a musical number? A large percentage of viewers interpreted it ultimately as a “crazy villain” song and not as an earned “ultimatum” song. Which just shows how far we need to go as a society in allowing women past the age of 35 to be angry without labeling them as “insane” or “evil,” rather than justifiably misunderstood and frustrated. I believe there’s a lack of empathy and an unspoken rule out there that “women over 35 must be seen and not heard” and I’m happy to be a small part in breaking it, if I can. 

Right.  I actually love the character of utterly over the top, stalker, criminal mastermind, frustrated, loyal, romantic Paula.  She's really different and I find her extremely entertaining.

[femmefan1946]

I tried to watch a show about a person in therapy and it got cancelled pretty quickly

The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation had a time travel/therapy mashup "Being Erica' that lasted two years and is currently being rerun.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1149608/plotsummary?ref_=tt_ov_pl

I couldn't watch it after the first episode, in which 30something Erica is transported to her high school prom and sleeps with her 17y.o. boyfriend, who thinks she is also 17. Ummm.... no.

But other than that it got critical acclaim and was quite popular. Not Murdoch Mysteries popular but okay. Also Tatiana Maslany is in the cast.

Edited May 28, 2016 by femmefan1946

[ToxicUnicorn]

Quote

Also Tatiana Maslany is in the cast.

That sold me - I'll look for it, thanks!

[KaleyFirefly]

On 4/20/2016 at 0:25 AM, Eyes High said:

It seems that Greg is in general someone who "lets his issues get in the way" of being a good friend/boyfriend/companion/overall human being. The frustrating thing is that with Greg there are these teasing, fleeting glimpses of the great person he could be. I believe that there is a good guy in there; he's just buried most of the time under a heaping load of bullshit: resentment, self-loathing, condescension, trust issues, moralizing, smugness, a Nice Guy mentality, the works. 

That totally and exactly describes my ex-boyfriend, which is why this show is hard for me to watch sometimes!

[KaleyFirefly]

I watched this show because my friend (whose opinion I generally trust) recommended it to me. At first, I wasn't sure I liked it -- the musical numbers were often weird and/or kinda gross. But then, slowly, the show grew on me. I found myself binge-watching several episodes at a time. As it went on I enjoyed the songs more ("Text-mergency" was hilarious).

I would be up for a Season 2, but I really do not want her to be with either Josh or Greg. I think they are both terrible. (And yes, Rebecca is sometimes terrible too, but I guess I still sort of relate to her and want her to find inner peace, self-esteem, and the confidence to reject BOTH Greg and Josh who are totally wrong for her, and find a great guy -- who doesn't already have a girlfriend, who is not a bitter drunk, etc. 

[FurryFury]

I think if Rebecca can grow up and deal with her issues to be a better person, then so can Greg (Josh is already pretty cool, although he still has his problems, of course). Which is why I can root for them as a couple pretty easily.

[KaleyFirefly]

On 8/14/2016 at 10:45 AM, FurryFury said:

I think if Rebecca can grow up and deal with her issues to be a better person, then so can Greg (Josh is already pretty cool, although he still has his problems, of course). Which is why I can root for them as a couple pretty easily.

Greg is too needy, insecure and sarcastic. Josh has major commitment issues, and slept with his best friend's girlfriend mere minutes after being dumped by his longtime girlfriend. Ugh. They both suck.

[FurryFury]

On 16.08.2016 at 3:01 AM, KaleyFirefly said:

Greg is too needy, insecure and sarcastic

You say sarcastic like it's a bad thing.

[Irlandesa]

On 8/15/2016 at 5:01 PM, KaleyFirefly said:

Greg is too needy, insecure and sarcastic. Josh has major commitment issues, and slept with his best friend's girlfriend mere minutes after being dumped by his longtime girlfriend. Ugh. They both suck.

They both have issues but honestly, I think Rebecca has the furthest road to cover.  So if she can deal with her issues, so can the guys.

[megwhite]

OMG! just finished binge watching! I can't wait to find out next season. I'm hooked on this show.

[festivus]

I just finished binge watching too. My dreams have been musicals for the last three days. I love this show, I'm glad I decided to give it a chance.

[stillshimpy]

I didn't quite binge watch, we watched this over the course of a few weeks and I'm so glad we did.  

Greg is too needy, insecure and sarcastic. Josh has major commitment issues and slept with his best friend's girlfriend mere minutes after being dumped by his longtime girlfriend. Ugh. They both suck.

I think the most surprising thing about the show has been that they are dealing with issues out the wazoo.  It's the Collected Crazy of West Covina show.  There's Rebecca, who up and moves across the country and gives up her entire life to pursue someone romantically, presumably without questioning why she thinks she loves Josh.  Even in the pilot's flashback to their summer camp romance, Josh seemed to have the emotional depth of a puddle.  He's not bright, but he is kind.   

Josh really just seems to want someone who will encourage him to put full adulthood on hold for as long as he chooses.  Skateboarding, working retail as  a dream job, doing hoverboard choreographed dances.  He thinks Rebecca's awesome because she doesn't want him to change or grow or take on any of the trappings of being a fully fledged grown-up.  I don't think he has commitment issues in romance as much as he doesn't want to go over the wall and into the land of mature choices and life expectations.  

Greg's self-loathing issues and deep-seated belief that he is inherently unlovable cause him to self-sabotage.  

Paula, who is awesome, is also awesomely unhinged in her own way and similarly has essentially no faith in her ability to attract and keep friends.  

It's a relationship show but it's more about everyone's relationship to themselves and how it tends to tank their endeavors as they pursue a number of other relationships.   The sole exception seems to be Darryl but he also made it to being nearly middle aged while in denial about some things in his life, similarly doesn't have a lot of friends  and zero filters when under stress.  

What a fun series and really in unexpected ways.  It's a lot smarter than I thought it was going to be and the music is really very good.  

[Nanrad]

Greg does have some deep seeded issues, but as a love interest, I don't think they are as major as some have said.

Honestly, minus the episode he got a C on his test, his drinking habits didn't stand out to me. I don't see him obsessively drinking or drinking throughout the day in episodes. Now, there was a reference or two by his friends, but there isn't much on screen evidence besides 1 or 2 occasions--this is why I was confused when Paula said he was an alcoholic.

Greg is sarcastic, self deprecating, and many other things, but regarding his behavior pertaining how he treats Rebecca is because of trust issues she cultivated. She constantly lied about her lack of interest in Josh (and that they had dated), she did use Greg a lot (as a plan b) when something didn't turn out as she planned with Josh, when they went to the part/cry kissing thing, and she did sleep with another guy who she met on their date and told him she was sick as a cover. I may be forgetting other things, but the items I mentioned alone is something most people would either be reluctant to pursue something with Rebecca OR cut her off altogether. Greg trying to play it cool was so he wouldn't get hurt after Rebecca hurt him several times and in one very major way. Like, he did choose to pursue her in some cases, but that doesn't excuse the shitty way she's treated him at certain times.

Although Greg's super sarcastic, I don't see this as a bad thing. IRL, I'm hella sarcastic (was nicknamed the Queen of Sarcasm), but I'm known for my politeness/kindness, honesty, and joyfulness as well. But, notice how when Greg is with Rebecca in an intimate capacity or expressing concern about her, his demeanor is DRASTICALLY different. He's lighter and smiles more--and not just when Hector pointed it out. His sarcasm towards her is affectionate and lighthearted and just overall behavior. Look back on their first and only date: Rebecca was uninterested in him until he expressed true knowledge about the famous fires, and their dynamic changed and they started having fun. He was really into her and being charming and she kind of opened up and found herself having a lot of fun. Or the pillow fight. Or Words with Friend in bed. Or them watching TV on the couch before Greg mentioned the double date. There are also moments where he's been supportive and there for her without agenda because he cares about her overall well-being. We're comparing regular Greg to Greg when he's with Rebecca and those are two different people (and this does exist--I had a friend/crush who was noticeably different and on his best behavior with me all while being super sarcastic, and then kind of jerkish with his other friends--lol)

Clearly, I'm Team Greg, but that's because there's on screen evidence that when he's with Rebecca, he's legit a better person and happier as well and, most importantly, she's happy too. Rebecca is focused on Josh because of her fantasy, but even before she and Greg slept together and she realized she like him, it was apparent. Logically, he sees himself as second choice and many viewers have made that conclusion, but I think that Rebecca is naturally drawn to Greg after getting to know him better because she's able to be vulnerable and herself around him. She also cares about what he thinks about her a lot. 

Also, Greg dropped the ball both intentionally and unintentionally. 1. He did it for Josh because he saw Josh pining 2. He intentionally ruined his chances with a woman he's in love with for his friend. He didn't call her cool because he wanted to prove how cool and unbothered he was, he called her cool to push her towards Josh.

[paramitch]

I've been really blown away by how sharp and subversive this show is. More than any other in recent memory, it has made me cringe at the television (in the best way) -- often while I'm laughing, or wanting to cry.

This is the saddest musical comedy I've ever seen (even trumping "Pushing Daisies"). And while I absolutely savor it and enjoy it, both from a writing standpoint and as a longtime musical theatre person, I also found that I couldn't bingewatch it for that reason. I found myself watching one or two, but then having to take a break for a day or two. I finished episode 17 on Friday, but just watched this season finale last night, simply because the bittersweet quality of the show occasionally made me reflective and a bit sad. In a weird way, the show is a real downer. Luckily, it's so beautifully done, it's worth it to me. But I would definitely have to go distract myself with something happy afterward.

On 4/18/2016 at 7:19 PM, Rinaldo said:

I'm just so happy, looking back on this season. They were true to their vision, didn't shrink from making pretty much every character unlikable at some point or other (except maybe Darryl?), had a plan that went beyond what I anticipated at the start, and they gave us 1 to 3 great new musical numbers each week. And just when I thought we had settled into a rather cheesy (if dubious) "fairy tale ending"... suddenly it wasn't.

At least we had one happy loving couple tonight: Darryl and his Josh!

I feel the exact same way. I watched with occasional horror at how deeply deluded Rebecca and Paula seemed to be, but for me the major turning point was Rebecca's realization that she was the villain of her own story. I was absolutely euphoric then and have been ever since, because that moment showed me that the writers clearly knew exactly who these characters were and what they were doing.

And I felt like that was echoed in this latest episode, very rewardingly. Watching Rebecca blissfully tell a horrified Josh the truth about her motivations was really upsetting, but for me it was also the perfect ending for the season, and the sign that this show's willing to go to some pretty unvarnished places to be honest about its characters. I thought the juxtaposition of fairy tale with reality, throughout, was just breathtaking. 

On 4/19/2016 at 5:24 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

First of all, Paula was rocking that gorgeous red dress during her big song. One of the many things I love about this show is that they manage to put ALL of the women in beautiful flattering clothes, not just the ones who are skinnier and therefore allegedly easier to dress like Valencia.

I love that too. I really adore this show's visible attempt to embrace a variety of ages, body types, sexual preferences, and ethnicities. It's wonderful. I also love the way it gives equal time and "moments" to almost all of the supporting characters. Paula getting another big moment here was fantastic (and very very important).

On 4/19/2016 at 11:27 PM, cleo57 said:

Sometimes you don't know what you want until confronted with all the things you don't. Rebecca having sex with her childhood boyfriend atop a magic carpet while Lea Salonga sings in the background is apparently all the things I didn't want. I watched that entire sequence with mounting horror; I didn't really think Rebecca's vague, post-dream ghost attempts at emotional health would stick, but watching her retreat so fully back into fantasyland, eyes wide and full of febrile hope, certain for the umpteenth time that Josh Chan was the answer to all her problems…well, it was a punch to the gut. And Josh's expression in that final moment when he finally realizes that no, Rebecca isn't the cool, chill, anti-Valencia, was the perfect way to deflate the moment.

I appreciated it on a narrative level. Obsessions like Rebecca's wax and wane, and her night of disappointment with Greg was reason enough to slide back into princess mode. But it left a bitter taste in my mouth, and I can't help but wish that this show, which is about people trying and failing but most importantly trying to be happy, hadn't ended on such a caustic note.
 

Yeah, I admit that I cringed big-time, watching all these people I have grown to love make pretty much all the worst choices -- Greg not being able to be honest and brave, Josh falling back on apathy and cowardice (combined with classic dog-in-the-manger syndrome over Rebecca finally looking happy with his friend), Rebecca falling back on her old unhealthy delusions and fantasies at the worst possible moment.

I agree that the ending was bitter. But I actually really loved it. The funny thing is, Rebecca's self-sabotage here is the best thing she could have done. Josh needs to know what he's actually dealing with, and she deserves the fallout. And, I suspect, it will lead both of them to seeing each other clearly and realizing (I hope with respect and affection) that they are not Meant To Be. And that maybe they need to work on themselves now, first.

On 4/23/2016 at 3:47 AM, theatremouse said:

I thought part of the point here is that we already know he's not only capable of coming up with the big gesture, but we saw him do it nudging the grocery store dude in a previous episode. That was there to establish Greg does actually think up this dreamy idealistic big gesture shit Rebecca daydreams about. He's totally got it in him. And the direct result of that episode with the grocery store dude was to "correct" Greg's thinking about such grand gestures and basically talk himself out of that type of impulse (which, if you're dating Rebecca is the opposite of a smart move).

Greg is a weak spot for me because he is not only wonderfully acted and sung, he's also the character I identify with the most. Greg, for all his faults, did actually attempt the big gesture with Rebecca this season -- twice. He even forgave her when she slept with another guy ON THEIR DATE. I think he has a lot of bullshit and baggage to get rid of, but I do like him and he broke my heart a lot this season. How sad that if he'd just spoken up sooner, he could have averted so much that happened in this episode.

On 4/24/2016 at 5:31 AM, STOPSHOUTING said:

And I also immediately thought, but what about Rebecca's money problems?? Dropped storylines annoy me.

I'm all for TV as a fantasy, but this bugged the crap out of me. Rebecca spending TWENTY FOUR HUNDRED DOLLARS when she was flat-broke and lost everything just a few episodes ago really bugged me here. I really disliked it and thought it was a rare lazy note by the show's writing. I also thought a $200-300 present would have accomplished the same thing, for goodness' sake. Regular people actually watch this show, people who have money problems, and the idea that Rebecca is still casually tossing around thousands in service to her delusions really bothered me.

On 4/29/2016 at 11:56 AM, Bline said:

Based on these comments by the show's creators, I bet by series end, Rebecca finally realizes that she first needs to be happy with herself before she can consider a relationship with anyone.  Maybe in season 4 Rebecca starts taking her sessions with Dr. Akopian seriously. 

I think the show certainly knows this, based on what we've watched them go through. The characters aren't self-aware but I've been very relieved to realize that the writers are. And hell, yes, Rebecca needs to buckle down and commit to that therapy, like, YESTERDAY. (Seriously. Please. She needs to. And not DREAM-GHOST therapy.)

On 5/2/2016 at 0:07 PM, cleo57 said:

I think part of the disconnect is that the show isn't subversive in the way we've come to expect. It doesn't flout our expectations by taking well-worn tropes and flipping them on their heads. It takes these tropes at face value and then asks: what could motivate a person to act like this in real life? Why would the funny bff be over-invested in their friend's love life? Maybe she's a lonely middle aged woman with a failing marriage and an insatiable need to live out her own unfulfilled dreams via an unsuspecting friend. Why would a smart, professional woman move across the country for a boy she hardly knows? Maybe she's clinically depressed, desperately unhappy, and looking for some small sliver of hope to latch onto. Why is the sarcastic bartender who eventually gets the girl so sarcastic? Maybe he's an almost-alcoholic with a sick dad and a terminal aversion to emotions. Whatever subversiveness this show has comes from deepening pre-established tropes, from coloring in threadbare character types with psychological nuance and emotional authenticity.

Add to this the fact that the show looks like a low budget Meg Ryan movie and I'm not surprised that people are semi-invested in the romantic pairings. Compare it to a show like Girls. Girls is also a coming of age story about a 20 something woman searching for happiness. Her romantic relationships are also lenses through which to gauge her personal development. But it looks and feels like an indie dramedy, and it largely eschews the romcom beats so prevalent in Crazy Ex Girlfriend. As a viewer, it's easy to maintain distance from the romances on Girls, because they zig and zag in a way that undermines my fundamental desire, as a human and a girl, to watch people on my TV set kiss. 

Is Crazy Ex Girlfriend a coming of age story? I hope so! I would be very happy to watch that show! I'm just not quite sure that it is that show. Not yet, at least.

Great post. For me it's not so much coming-of-age, however, as redefining happiness. For me that's the real heart of the show: Rebecca didn't move to West Covina for Josh. She moved there to be HAPPY (which was why her very affecting scene on the party bus was so moving -- it was true).

She thought (I think mistakenly) that Josh would be her answer to happiness. The beautiful irony of the show is that I think she has found -- and will continue to find -- real love and happiness in West Covina whether Josh, or anyone, works out romantically.

I have to disagree on the "Girls" praise in comparison -- I respect some of what that show attempted, but found it overpraised; I hated its characters, its narcissism and oblivious ugliness -- and it succumbed to plenty of rom-com tropes in its own right (then defended those choices). For me, MCEG is a far kinder, more nuanced show, and honestly, a riskier one. It knows exactly what it is and I think is trying for something really new.

On 5/2/2016 at 5:24 PM, theatremouse said:

I think Paula having a song that is a riff on Rose's Turn is absolutely perfect for explaining Paula, even before they did it, even temporarily ignoring all occasions on which Paula slipped and kept referring to herself as Rebecca's mother kindasorta. Paula is only a "villain" insomuch as Rose is the villain of Gypsy. She's shown herself to be tortured in very much the same way as Rose. It's a perfect analogy, for me.

I completely agree on all counts. I'm a huge fan of "Gypsy" and think it's a masterpiece, and that show had the same willingness to show its characters in all their flaws and weaknesses, and yet with palpable love. Mama Rose and Paula are both terrible, lovable, wonderful characters.

On 5/2/2016 at 8:09 PM, taragel said:

That being said, I'm still a proponent of the idea that everyone has flaws and is a work in progress (or in the show's parlance, "everyone's a little bit crazy')...and that doesn't mean they don't deserve satisfying romance with someone. This idea that Rebecca can't be with Josh or Greg (or vice versa) until they unpack all their issues and are just perfectly well-adjusted folks seems silly to me. I'd be satisfied if the show got her to a place where she could stop self-sabotaging her relationships, but beyond that...I'm not sure I buy that all thoughts of love = happiness need to be stripped away.

I think that's what I love most about the show, though -- that all of these people are weak, flawed, scared, sad. That they're battling depression, anxiety, insecurity, and self-loathing in search of a dream that actually doesn't exist -- while missing the simple chances for happiness right under their noses right this moment.

On 5/27/2016 at 11:14 PM, femmefan1946 said:

I tried to watch a show about a person in therapy and it got cancelled pretty quickly.

I highly, highly recommend HBO's beautiful series "In Treatment," which I felt took a similar realistic and open-eyed (yet loving) view of patients and doctors alike, in all their strengths and weaknesses. The patients are often incredibly moving, most especially Blair Underwood, John Mahoney, Allison Pill, Mia Wasikowska, Irrfan Khan, Embeth Davidtz, and more. And although the therapist (Gabriel Byrne) is often frustrating in his own sessions, he is nevertheless incredibly good at what he does and you get the sense that he has made a difference in these people's lives. To this day it's by far the best show I've ever seen about psychotherapy, and the payoffs are earned and highly emotional each season.

On 9/1/2016 at 3:49 PM, stillshimpy said:

I don't think [Josh] has commitment issues in romance as much as he doesn't want to go over the wall and into the land of mature choices and life expectations.  

Greg's self-loathing issues and deep-seated belief that he is inherently unlovable cause him to self-sabotage.  

Paula, who is awesome, is also awesomely unhinged in her own way and similarly has essentially no faith in her ability to attract and keep friends.  

It's a relationship show but it's more about everyone's relationship to themselves and how it tends to tank their endeavors as they pursue a number of other relationships.   The sole exception seems to be Darryl but he also made it to being nearly middle aged while in denial about some things in his life, similarly doesn't have a lot of friends  and zero filters when under stress.  

What a fun series and really in unexpected ways.  It's a lot smarter than I thought it was going to be and the music is really very good.  

I agree with you on the show, and on the characters. I do think Josh is very lovable, but he's frustratingly passive for me -- to the extent that it almost feels inadvertently as if all of Rebecca's grandstanding was the only way anyone can get him to actually act.

Meanwhile, I feel so bad for Greg because I probably identify with him the most (I am the best person ever at self-loathing in relationships! OVERSHARE! Only more in the female way that seems to direct emotions back to ourselves...). Greg is secretly every bit the romantic Rebecca is. But he's saddled with so much baggage and self-hate he is constantly acting in his own play with other people, writing cool witty dialogue, hoping people somehow see the real him underneath all the acid and sarcasm anyway.

I want good things for Greg. I'm just undecided on whether that means he has to enact the part of the prince (or villain) here. I also want him to grow and stop hurting others before they hurt him first.

Darryl is my single favorite character on this show, and I am so grateful for him. He has been my oasis of simple, honest love and warmth among so many of these people so afraid to reveal themselves, because he has joyfully blossomed across the entire season, finding himself, his capacity for friendship and love, discovering his own potential in life.  Darryl is all about heart and when he acts on that, he also very rarely does wrong. He was exactly right about Paula needing to be there for Rebecca, and my favorite moment of the episode was when he gently corrected her on what friendship actually is. Also, he and WJ holding hands at the wedding was the most romantic moment in this episode for me.

I also loved that the show subverted expectations in the most beautiful way of all in the end, when the "Big Moment" Rebecca had longed for at the wedding -- the big emotional declaration? Was that of the unending friendship between herself and Paula, seeing each other across that crowded room, embracing, and then telling each other "You look beautiful!" and "I love you." It was wonderful.

(To quote the Dream-Ghost Therapist, it doesn't have to be All About the Guys.)

Edited September 12, 2016 by paramitch
Typo fix!

[stillshimpy]

Quote

 

Greg is a weak spot for me because he is not only wonderfully acted and sung, he's also the character I identify with the most. Greg, for all his faults, did actually attempt the big gesture with Rebecca this season -- twice. He even forgave her when she slept with another guy

ON THEIR DATE. I think he has a lot of bullshit and baggage to get rid of, but I do like him and he broke my heart a lot this season. How sad that if he'd just spoken up sooner, he could have averted so much that happened in this episode.

Emphasis mine.  Well, not quite ON their date but she did make up a bullshit excuse to bail and take some rando home with her.  Honestly, that Greg was able to overcome that speaks incredibly well of him.  Although, I was equally weirded out be the fact that he was parked in her freaking parking lot, when he thought she'd excused herself for not feeling well.  

I'm honestly not team anyone in all of this, although I find it touching how much Greg truly does care about Rebecca.  

I did want to point out though that Rebecca having money again was actually explained in the show, I thought.  She got a check for her "quarterly bonus" didn't she and declared she wasn't poor any longer.  It's also just clear that Rebecca doesn't understand money at all.  

I'm with you on the rather sad note that the season ended on but far from thinking it would show Josh that Rebecca was not the super cool, easy-going, believes-in-him-just-as-he-is-woman but rather to show Rebecca that Josh has flaws of his own since the entire evening featured Josh doing some pretty suspect stuff.   He officially boned the girl he knows his friend Greg is a) actively sleeping with b) really cares about c) Greg is a lifelong friend. So he's not exactly winning any gold stars on the good friend chart for that move.  Also, Josh had just broken up with his longtime girlfriend and not exactly by his choice, so he's really just sabotaging the crap out of Rebecca and Greg's budding relationship on the same night Josh thought he was still in love with Valencia on.  I get that Josh isn't supposed to have a lot of emotional complexity but good grief, that's a level emotional elasticity that would seem to suggest he lacks emotional depth overall. 

I like Josh.  I like that's he's usually pretty kind but that was the first time he'd done something so self-involved as to be really pretty cruel.  The fallout from that action, even if Rebecca had been everything he had convinced himself she was, it still would have been about the worst way to do that and caused the most pain to everyone else he should care about in that situation.  

I was already into the "Huh....guess Josh isn't that nice of a guy in a lot of respects...." territory before Rebecca admitted all of that to Josh.  Plus, more than thinking she was crazy, I sort of got the feeling that he was just absolutely horrified to find out he'd gone from one level of expectations with Valencia, to primarily the exact same expectations with Rebecca.  

I agree that an essential turning point in the series narrative was when Rebecca realized she was the villain of the piece, sabotaging and manipulating.  I saw that end moment as the seconds before she finds out that Josh has a few villainous traits himself because whereas Greg fucked up for a variety of reasons, Josh certainly became the villain of Greg's story.  

On that first date when Greg really didn't have any true claim to Rebecca -- it was ruder than hell to lie and go home with a different dude but that's really all it was -- that was one level of betrayal.  That was a betrayal of a sort of social contract as much as anything but holy hell, how is the poor man going to feel when he invariably finds out his childhood friend boned the girl he's in love with and who Josh should have understood Greg had feelings for in the first place.  

I wonder if one of the reprisals next season will be Josh singing some version of the Villain Epiphany because he perfectly positioned himself to hurt Greg, really devastate Valencia and the look on his face at the end -- utterly horrified -- likely means he's about to break the hell out of Rebecca's heart too.   None of Rebecca's revelations really should have been that giant of a shock to Josh.   Sure, it would be shocking to have complete confirmation that, yup, you've just done the deed with a woman who is your stalker, but he's about the only person who didn't already know that and Josh should have been able to sift the clues.  He just ignored them because Rebecca made him feel better about any and all of his own choices.   

Josh's "Aw, at least he's actually a really nice guy...." resume took some pretty serious hits in the closing moments of the first season. 

Edited September 13, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Rinaldo]

10 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

Emphasis mine.  Well, not quite ON their date but she did make up a bullshit excuse to bail and take some rando home with her.  Honestly, that Greg was able to overcome that speaks incredibly well of him.  Although, I was equally weirded out be the fact that he was parked in her freaking parking lot, when he thought she'd excused herself for not feeling well.  

He was? Did I miss something? (Always possible...) It seemed most likely to me that he'd shown up just then to see how she was doing, and crossed paths with the guy leaving her apartment. 

[stillshimpy]

Quote

 

He was? Did I miss something? (Always possible...) It seemed most likely to me that he'd shown up just then to see how she was doing, and crossed paths with the guy leaving her apartment.

Well it's not like that would have been appropriate either, again, first date and she'd had long enough to go to the bone zone and kick the guy out.  Greg and Rebecca were leaving the same place so that ought to be about a half hour gap, since the sex itself appeared to be of the not-very-remarkable variety, so to my mind, no matter how you slice that or what he was doing there, it was a freaking shocking lack of boundaries on his part.  

It should have been within an hour.  You only really drop by for someone you have the kind of relationship with that supports that level of intimacy (see: not on your first date, dude) and the only reason that didn't stand out a "Wha....?" mile is because Rebecca A) had lied to ditch Greg B) had taken home some random dude she basically met outside a bathroom and had sex with him so Greg's behavior was sort of the least of the outrageous actions in that moment.  Although, can I just point out that she was well within her rights to actually do exactly that?  Yes, she was on a date with Greg, it was rude, lying and ditching him was pretty outrageous from an etiquette standpoint  but he wasn't renting her for the evening or something.  

Watching that my entire reaction was "What the fuck are you even doing there??"  but I might be a tiny bit sensitive to that kind of behavior having had a really charming stalker at one point in my life who would do things exactly like that.  I'm not suggesting Greg was acting like a stalker, by the way, but it also was pretty far from an appropriate course of action even if he was trying to see how she was doing.  So either way, Loss O' Boundaries much?  

Now, it's forgivable because he clearly does just care a lot about Rebecca and liked her a lot more than she liked him at that point but it's essentially in the same behavior family as a lot of Rebecca's behaviors towards Josh.   

Edited September 13, 2016 by stillshimpy

[JustaPerson]

I think it was night when Greg went to check on her (lots of window and open door shots in that scene) and sunny when she ditched him. So it was probably a few hours. 

[Irlandesa]

2 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

 You only really drop by for someone you have the kind of relationship with that supports that level of intimacy (see: not on your first date, dude) and the only reason that didn't stand out a "Wha....?" mile is because Rebecca A) had lied to ditch Greg B) had taken home some random dude she basically met outside a bathroom and had sex with him so Greg's behavior was sort of the least of the outrageous actions in that moment. 

I also think it didn't seem too out there to me is that I'd say it was technically their second date (after the pilot) and they felt a bit more knowledgeable about one another than typical first dates. 

[paramitch]

On 9/12/2016 at 7:36 PM, stillshimpy said:

Emphasis mine.  Well, not quite ON their date but she did make up a bullshit excuse to bail and take some rando home with her.  Honestly, that Greg was able to overcome that speaks incredibly well of him.  Although, I was equally weirded out be the fact that he was parked in her freaking parking lot, when he thought she'd excused herself for not feeling well.  

I'm honestly not team anyone in all of this, although I find it touching how much Greg truly does care about Rebecca.  

I did want to point out though that Rebecca having money again was actually explained in the show, I thought.  She got a check for her "quarterly bonus" didn't she and declared she wasn't poor any longer.  It's also just clear that Rebecca doesn't understand money at all.  

I'm with you on the rather sad note that the season ended on but far from thinking it would show Josh that Rebecca was not the super cool, easy-going, believes-in-him-just-as-he-is-woman but rather to show Rebecca that Josh has flaws of his own since the entire evening featured Josh doing some pretty suspect stuff.

On that first date when Greg really didn't have any true claim to Rebecca -- it was ruder than hell to lie and go home with a different dude but that's really all it was -- that was one level of betrayal.  That was a betrayal of a sort of social contract as much as anything but holy hell, how is the poor man going to feel when he invariably finds out his childhood friend boned the girl he's in love with and who Josh should have understood Greg had feelings for in the first place.  

I don't know... I think Rebecca's behavior edged beyond social contract breakage because she had Greg had already made out and he had been pretty frank about liking her. They'd gone on to socialize at least somewhat over the next few episodes, so when he asked her to "settle for him" (has there ever been a prettier, sadder music video?), he was asking with (granted) full knowledge of who she is and what her issues are. But her choosing to say yes there also I feel at least entitled him to some modicum of kindness due a friend who cares about you as more than friends, if that makes sense.

I still think Rebecca's actions meant that she cheated on the date. She ducked out early, pretended to get sick, went and had sex with the loser she met while ON THE DATE, and when Greg showed up later (and I truly didn't get a creepy vibe off this), simply being a nice guy who wanted to make sure his friend was okay, he unwittingly realized what she had done and was (thankfully and refreshingly for TV), scorched-earth furious, and I felt, deservedly so. I mean, that's one of those Hall-of-Fame bad-date stories.

And the worst part of it is that he really liked her, even seeing her flaws fairly clearly. And the fact that he continued to care about her afterward (after something I would honestly have written off as, "Oh, HELL no") to make the big romantic gesture is as cringeworthy as it is lovely. But then proceeded to act like an ass every time he was close to real feelings from Rebecca, because that is what Greg does, and it's totally not okay. He definitely has real issues, and he can on occasion be a champion douchebag when he wants to be. What I loved about this finale was that it showed Greg as both -- touchingly sweet, vulnerable, and caring... and also as a monumental poser too afraid to simply be himself and tell the truth.

BUT -- I don't blame Rebecca all that much, either, despite the ridiculous mistakes she always makes (and made again here). And that's what I love about this show. It understands how difficult it is for people who are vulnerable and I do think it loves Rebecca for her daring. She's smart and caring, as well as a terminal (often disastrous) dreamer and illusionist, but I think the show loves that about her, just as her new friends in West Covina do. How many people actually do dare to move? To change? To take a chance? Not many. 

In my twenties, I was a woman in a very Greg-like situation with a guy who was a close friend who tended to sort of play with the idea of me as a constant backup -- I wasn't his type but he enjoyed the attention, and also simply couldn't make up his mind about his life or choices. After a year or so, and after a ridiculously magical evening, he made a big pass. All that was missing was a musical number (seriously) -- and we were both musicians, so that was definitely an exciting if regrettable possibility.

And I turned him down. I was not going to make what I knew was a mistake (however lovely it might have been temporarily) with someone who didn't value me -- and which would eventually cause me even more pain later on.

I have never doubted that I made the right choice. But -- probably not a week goes by that I haven't looked back and wondered what might have been different if I had taken him up on it. What I love about this show is that it understands that kind of vulnerability and pain, and almost every one of its characters is a different facet of what it takes to be real, honest, and loving despite how scary it is to put yourself out there.

Meanwhile, as far as Josh -- I definitely agree with how much he tarnished his 'Josh is a good guy" image here. I was saddened and disappointed at how badly he betrayed his friendship with Greg here multiple times. I just hope we see some of that bloom come off the rose for Rebecca next season, too. 

23 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Watching that my entire reaction was "What the fuck are you even doing there??"  but I might be a tiny bit sensitive to that kind of behavior having had a really charming stalker at one point in my life who would do things exactly like that.  I'm not suggesting Greg was acting like a stalker, by the way, but it also was pretty far from an appropriate course of action even if he was trying to see how she was doing.  So either way, Loss O' Boundaries much?  

Now, it's forgivable because he clearly does just care a lot about Rebecca and liked her a lot more than she liked him at that point but it's essentially in the same behavior family as a lot of Rebecca's behaviors towards Josh.   

I am SO WITH YOU on the whole "hey, I just dropped by" thing, which gives me hives just thinking about it. </introvert> But here I thought the setup was -- while TV-compressed -- reasonably sympathetic. Greg took her out on a date, assumed she'd gotten sick (and felt bad for that), and simply dropped by after to see if she needed anything. I didn't get the sense that he was waiting in the parking lot, but rather that he went there shortly after just to see if he could help her with anything she needed. I thought it was a genuinely kind and non-weird gesture.

21 hours ago, JustaPerson said:

I think it was night when Greg went to check on her (lots of window and open door shots in that scene) and sunny when she ditched him. So it was probably a few hours. 

I took it as -- she left in the late afternoon and he showed up maybe 45 minutes later, so long enough for the twilight to descend and for her to have done the regrettable deed with Taco Douche.

21 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I also think it didn't seem too out there to me is that I'd say it was technically their second date (after the pilot) and they felt a bit more knowledgeable about one another than typical first dates. 

I would add that it wasn't just their second date after the pilot (when they'd gotten fairly hot and heavy), but that they'd gotten to be peripheral friends in the meanwhile. Greg certainly had a pretty clear-eyed view of Rebecca and her situation at that point, hence the "settle for me" bid.

Which means that -- ironically -- both of their actions here in the finale made sense. Greg was terrified at this point of going mushy or showing his true sappy feelings because he had already gotten pretty stomped repeatedly, both knowingly and unknowingly, by Rebecca. And Rebecca was truly trying to connect with him, repeatedly, until Josh caught her at a weak, sad moment and did what I consider to be a really reprehensible thing, to both of them.

The ironic part is that Rebecca should have helped take Greg home, seen him through the aftermath, and then given him a piece of her mind about his behavior. She should have taken that same opportunity to voice both her feelings for him and her worry about his behavior.

But then again, then, this would have been a really short season.

The funny thing is, this all makes me seem like I'm super-invested in the romance aspect and I'm not. I think the show pushes those buttons pretty savvily, knowing that shippers can make or break an audience. But (while an often inveterate shipper myself), for me, that doesn't apply here. I really don't care if Rebecca ends up with ANYONE. Same for Greg. Same for Josh. What I do want is for them to stop giving in to this weak and hurtful behavior and to try to find a way to live in the world honestly, even if it's without romantic love or fulfillment (at least while they get their shit together).

For instance: Darryl doesn't lie to himself. He is consistently delighted, in fact, when he discovers new aspects of himself he didn't suspect before -- and he then sings a song about that discovery, no matter how scary, and tells the world. I heart that so much.

One additional thing I will call out: While I laughed at the fabulous Lea Salonga Disney Song, I feel like the show missed the boat in a rare way in musical theatre language. The show ignored what for me is actually the stereotypical Princess Song, which is not a song of true love, but which is instead a song of yearning and dissatisfaction and impending change. Joss Whedon did a far better pastiche of that for instance in Buffy's "Once More with Feeling" episode (complete with the gorgeous spectacle of Buffy's final song notes lifting up even as she dusted another vampire and its golden motes swirled around her).

But. Maybe Rebecca didn't get her Yearning Princess song because she doesn't know what she wants (and no, I don't think "West Covina" counts). She has always made it All About Josh. Never about herself. A Yearning Princess song next season would be really interesting (especially if it wasn't just about the entrance of the next prospective suitor).

Meanwhile, next season, I kind of want Paula to look at all of this BS and go, "OH MY GOD WHAT WAS I THINKING" and rush home to her husband, who I think has shown himself very willing to give and get attention in her life, if she can pause long enough to register that either is taking place. They were totally cute together in the "stage a robbery" episode so -- I'm rooting for them. The only ingredient I can see that's missing from them is the time and intention to pay attention to one another and find common ground. They're kind of adorable when they find it.

I also wouldn't mind more Daryll as a counterpoint. He is making many of the same mistakes -- and I think that's so smart of the writers -- but he is also willing to be brave, to look stupid, and to be honest when all else fails. Best of all, so is WJ, who is a sneakily wonderful character. Their romance succeeding as so many others stutter or crash around them could be a great lesson if only anyone around them was paying attention.

When it comes to true love? Matching cummerbunds for all!

Edited September 14, 2016 by paramitch
Missing wordage darn it

[Rinaldo]

I love pretty much everything you wrote, paramitch, give or take a parenthetical or two. Thank you.

[paramitch]

20 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

I love pretty much everything you wrote, paramitch, give or take a parenthetical or two. Thank you.

Thanks so much, Rinaldo! That's high praise. And yeah... I have parentheses issues. (My segues have segues!)

Edited September 15, 2016 by paramitch

[Nanrad]

When it comes to dating etiquette, showing up uninvited after a second dates comes off as weird, but there are few exceptions to this rule.

IMO, Greg has an exception, which is based on a complexity Rebecca introduced on their first date and that Greg pieced together through their limited interactions. Rebecca's obsession with Josh is what push Greg from some date or casual acquaintance to a person has "privileges" that most date have shortly after meeting someone. Due to the Josh factor as well as their mildly belligerent friendship before the second date, it wasn't all that weird to me that he showed up after the second date. Greg wasn't some random stranger, he knew something very personal about Rebecca, which they discussed on an occasion or two (more like he accused and she denied) and it was something that simultaneously pulled them apart and pushed them together very early on.

Compare the first time Greg asked her out to the second. The first time Greg asked her out like you would someone you're interested that you just met: careful of what you say, testing waters, taking a chance. The second time their dynamic is FAR different--these are two people who know each other. Like, this is NOT the way you ask out someone you're interested in that you ONLY get away with if you know them:

Greg: So, umm...healthy choices?

Rebecca: Yeah.

Greg: That applies to your dating life, too, don't you think?

Rebecca: Yeah, like, I think I really need to be with, like, an older guy, maybe like a professor, or maybe like...(Greg makes a suggestive face at her) Oh. Wait. Are you...are you really doing this?

Greg: Yeah. So, I still like you, and I know I shouldn't. I don't want to. You're not that nice to me and you're weird. And I tell myself to stop thinking about you, but every time you show up, it's like BOOM...feelings. And I know also that you have feelings for Josh...

Rebecca: No, I don't have feelings for Josh--

Greg (cuts her off): No, no, no, no, no. (Rebecca protests) Shh...just listen. No, no, no--just-just listen.

Greg is only allowed to get away with asking her out in such a way because there is no pretense between since he's knows her well enough through their interactions, which includes both the disastrous first date, the party, and the other interactions not shown on screen. Now, Rebecca didn't want to go out with him because he's not Josh and not because he was rude and cut her off. I don't think she even made a mention of that after their conversation. 

On their date, Greg exhibits knowledge about Rebecca that shows they had to have spent some time together as "friends" and/or in a setting he could observe her (not in a stalker way). Greg lacks some tact, but he really has her number and not because she obsessively mentions Josh, but rather, he talks to her and is able to deduce shit.

So when you add up all of their interactions and implications of onscreen interactions, it says that Greg and Rebecca have this weird, undefinable friendship. And when he comes to her place unexpectedly to check on her, Rebecca isn't freaked out or scared or even wondering what he's doing there, but she is freaking out at being caught. Hell, even both of their arguments show that, despite it being their second date, they are too familiar with each other to treat each other like strangers or someone they are vaguely familiar with. (TBH, I was baffled in the next episode when Rebecca walked into the storage room at Home Base lol)

As for the season finale, I think Rebecca needs to hit rock bottom. This is not so she can have an honest chance with Greg/Josh won't be a shadow over their relationship, but she truly needs to get rid of the fantasy delusion--it's her "safe" place. And Greg like straight up triggered her relapse. She was trying to adult and shit and Greg let her down big time and Josh swoops in and Rebecca dives in head first. And it's so messed up because Rebecca admitted that since she was trying to create a moment rather than just lay her cards out, that night became a mess, and then she let herself get sucked further in.

Greg's an idiot, but God, I can understand his clusteruck of feelings. in one of the hugest coincidences of all time, Rebecca decided to give him a chance when he decided to stop pursuing her. He thought that being himself/honest about his feelings wasn't enough to keep her around. :( It really feels as if he pushed her into Josh's way.

And Josh...*sighs* he's a terrible friend to Greg. Whatever issues Greg has with Josh or insecurities when compared to him, he's been a great friend to Josh. We've seen Greg try to protect Josh's relationship with Valencia, give helpful suggestions to cheer him up, give advice without pushing his own opinion on Josh, etc--I'm not say Greg is perfect because lol and there does seem to be some resentment from him about Josh as well, BUT Greg's never actively and maliciously tried to sabotage Josh either. But, Josh...shit talked to Rebecca about Greg this was AFTER previously encouraging the two to date. He's lashing out about their 1st secret hook up, and then gets possessive of Rebecca and starts flexing their prior relationship and friendship to prove to Greg that he's going to be a constant presence in their relationship. And then makes a move on Rebecca all while thinking she was still with Greg (were they still together???).

[stillshimpy]

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I still think Rebecca's actions meant that she cheated on the date. She ducked out early, pretended to get sick, went and had sex with the loser she met while ON THE DATE, and when Greg showed up later (and I truly didn't get a creepy vibe off this), simply being a nice guy who wanted to make sure his friend was okay, he unwittingly realized what she had done and was (thankfully and refreshingly for TV), scorched-earth furious, and I felt, deservedly so. I mean, that's one of those Hall-of-Fame bad-date stories.

I absolutely agree with you that Rebecca was so far over the line in terms of acceptable behavior, the line was dot on the horizon behind her and that it was rude as hell.  That Rebecca made out with Greg while trying to scope out Josh's location -- and that Greg kind of had to have figured out what she was doing -- doesn't really say "second date" to me, but even if that's the gig?  Holy shit, it's inappropriate to follow someone home to their residence without an actual invitation to do so after -- if you're feeling generous with the terms 1.5 dates (and that's counting the first one). 

I couldn't possibly agree with you less that Greg dropping by was sort of forgivable.  Maybe it's because we all know she was lying herself blue to him that influences that.  So we know she didn't a) have uncontrollable vomiting b) diarrhea c) some hideous combination of the two or d) had just experienced an explosive wave of menstrual blood the likes of which would send anyone scrambling for fresh clothes.   However, Greg didn't know that.  In fact, from Greg's perspective, she went to the bathroom and then excused herself and went home.  We know it was to hook-up with that guy who had all the appeal of a sprouting potato.  What it should have been, if Rebecca had been playing by any rules of courtesy, was Rebecca almost certainly experiencing any of A - D.   At most, at absolute most, text or call but if you have any reason to believe someone has gone home because of gastrointestinal distress?  No.  Just, no.  

Dude, if that was me and I'd excused myself for a legitimate reason and then he showed up at my home uninvited after -- even if you're being fully generous -- 2 dates, only one of which sort of went okay?  Yeah. Normal circumstances?  I'd at LEAST be pointing out how inappropriate that is from someone you barely know but far more likely I'd just dump the dude.  Admittedly, I once dumped a guy for randomly announcing he hated fat people.  Seeing the fully grossed out look on my face he said, "Did you just lose all respect for me?"  and I told him, "Yup.  You did" and never went out with him again. 

I think it's because we know Greg in a larger context and we also know that Rebecca, to put it sooooooooo mildly, doesn't play by any known rules either, that it doesn't stand out as "Whoa.  That's not okay in a real world setting!"  

I think the show knows that too, though.  Normally that would not be okay.  Since we know it's a sign of "Oh, he really cares for her" and as the audience we've spent time with Greg?  It seems forgivable.  Real world, though?  YIKES!  However, absolutely everything in this show concerning Josh, Rebecca or Greg comes under that heading.  "Holy shit, really world?  You'd set land-speed records getting the fuck away from someone like that."  

Edited September 19, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Rinaldo]

It's actually a third date; they double-dated with Josh & Valencia at Spiders. (Which was referred to as their second date in the next episode.)

And the idea that it's beyond the pale to show up at someone's door after you've been out with her 3 times and she'd told you she'd been suddenly taken ill and was going home? That's a different code of behavior from the one I know. It seems perfectly in order to me. I just rewatched the season over the weekend (the DVDs are out), and there's a lot of knocking on doors unannounced in many episodes, by pretty near everybody, so it doesn't seem to be considered unusual within the world of the show either.

[Irlandesa]

21 minutes ago, Rinaldo said:

It's actually a third date; they double-dated with Josh & Valencia at Spiders. (Which was referred to as their second date in the next episode.)

And the idea that it's beyond the pale to show up at someone's door after you've been out with her 3 times and she'd told you she'd been suddenly taken ill and was going home? That's a different code of behavior from the one I know. It seems perfectly in order to me. I just rewatched the season over the weekend (the DVDs are out), and there's a lot of knocking on doors unannounced in many episodes, by pretty near everybody, so it doesn't seem to be considered unusual within the world of the show either.

Without texting first?  Yep.  Very common in TV.  I guess I would feel it was more inappropriate if this were a relationship where the sum total of their interaction involved their dates and only added up to a few hours. But it isn't.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Irlandesa

[Rinaldo]

One funny little detail that I only just thought about -- maybe everyone else got it instantly. Rebecca's beloved 1990s animated fairy tale (from which the song "One Indescribable Instant" comes) is titled Slumbered. Of course it is; the writers noticed the trend toward past-tense-verb titles for recent Disney animated fairy tales -- Tangled, Frozen -- and decided that in their fictional world this was already being done 20 years ago, and was used for their version of Sleeping Beauty. I love it.