S05.E18: Ruby Slippers

[legaleagle53]

On 5/3/2016 at 1:50 PM, Serena said:

Or you can even be bisexual! Like in the real world.

The problem is that it really came out of nowhere.  We never had any indication that Ruby or Dorothy were attracted to other women before it was suddenly sprung on us at the last minute.  Believe me as a gay man, there are always cues that other people pick up on even before we do -- if you had asked me when I was about twelve whether I was gay, I wouldn't have been able to answer you (I didn't even know what "gay" was back then), but everyone around me had read the signs and knew long before I recognized what my sexuality was and could even admit it to myself.  That's why absolutely nobody (and especially nobody in my family) was shocked or even surprised when I finally did come out at the age of 34.

It's the same thing with Ruby Slippers (I have to admit, I do love the shipper name), Sleeping Warrior, and yes, even Swan Queen.  In order for it to be believable for me, I have to have some indication that the parties involved in the respective same-sex ships would even have been inclined that way to start with instead of suddenly having it spring forth full-blown like Athena from the head of Zeus.  Give me a little set-up so that it at least feels organic -- let me see Ruby, Aurora, Emma, or Regina actually looking "that way" at other women (heck, even throw in some flashbacks of them actually dating other women) before you expect me to buy that they'd suddenly start hooking up with women that they've known all of five minutes when all of the signs that I've been given lead me to believe that they're only interested in the sex that has a penis.

Edited May 7, 2016 by legaleagle53

[myril]

21 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

It's the same thing with Ruby Slippers (I have to admit, I do love the shipper name), Sleeping Warrior, and yes, even Swan Queen.  In order for it to be believable for me, I have to have some indication that the parties involved in the respective same-sex ships would even have been inclined that way to start with instead of suddenly having it spring forth full-blown like Athena from the head of Zeus.  Give me a little set-up so that it at least feels organic -- let me see Ruby, Aurora, Emma, or Regina actually looking "that way" at other women (heck, even throw in some flashbacks of them actually dating other women) before you expect me to buy that they'd suddenly start hooking up with women that they've known all of five minutes when all of the signs that I've been given lead me to believe that they're only interested in the sex that has a penis.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Experience of people can be different. You had the experience, that many around you picked up things and seemed not so surprised when you came out as gay, but other people can tell different stories. There is no rule book about how to be gay/lesbian/bisexual or how to come out as such, it's something individual. I know that some people around me still have no idea that I am bisexual, some thinking I'm heterosexual, a few others that I am lesbian, and a few forget that I already told them. And trust me, I do give looks, but not everyone might see them or not see them as such. Particular that someone might be bisexual is something that doesn't come to mind for a lot of people, we're very used to think in binary if it comes to this, in my experience even gay/lesbian people sometimes struggle to get that idea. Just look at how many people now talk of Ruby being lesbian while in her case it would at least be more obvious to talk of bisexual given her history with boyfriend.

There were some people seeing Red as potentially bisexual before. Just take a look at a number of fan fictions about Red and Belle, ship name Red Beauty, based on pretty much two moments they had in season 2, in one episode. Dr. Whale and Red had not much more of a moment, but as well plenty of people ship those two. But right, Red was with a guy before, and flirted with another, so of course that wouldn't have been out of the blue for her to be with another guy. Stick to what you're expected to do / to be. And of course could say as well, in fan fiction pretty much any two people having had one scene are shipped by someone, no, don't even need a scene together (see particular cross-overs). Wishful thinking but also keeping open minds for possibilities.

Nothing was telling me before, that Red could be nothing but heterosexual, but I am quite simply by now very much open to the idea, that any fictional character can be bisexual or even a closeted gay/lesbian unless it is clearly expressed otherwise. To approach romances and relations this way, and not anymore the usual way of assuming someone is heterosexual unless shown otherwise, creates a lot of interesting possibilities and room for character development and stories. Why limit imagination with whatever society as defined as norm in this, imagination is there to transcend such societal norms, to explore and to stretch our minds, isn't it?

But I am aware that enough people still even deny, that Mulan could have been in love with a woman, with Aurora. People deny that despite some scenes that can be interpreted otherwise. It was there already rather early in season 2 for some viewers, not just with the scene of Mulan pushing Aurora's heart back into her chest. As far as we know the writers haven't written it that way though, it just happened for some viewers on screen, a subtle chemistry between the actors. Looks, reactions that could be taken as signs of feelings, but for some those moments are just scenes of loyalty and friendship. The difference is, we did see Mulan and Aurora interact over a number of episodes before, saw some sort of relationship develop, but it was never explicit which kind of relationship. The scenes then in season 3 were left ambiguous, it was only clear, that Mulan had feelings for someone, she never said for who. From the scene people guessed Aurora, and it's to me the more obvious one, but others guessed Phillip. The sad truth is that even in this episode now Mulan still didn't get to say it out loud to someone, just that she had feelings for someone, not that it were for a woman. So those denying it was for Aurora still can do so and hang on to the thought Mulan were in love with Phillip. Nothing aside of interpretations and some words by cast and crew say that Mulan had feelings for Aurora, not if you don't want to see it. A simple sentence in this episode could have made all the difference and help to do even more for representation.

Aside that Aurora and Mulan played much more of a role in the second season than Red, Mulan or Dorothy played now in season 5, the difference is, people had over 2 years by now to get used to the idea, that Mulan was in love with Aurora, is bisexual or lesbian, so it feels like the way more obvious choice to many now, like something that wouldn't come out of the blue. Though bet for a few it still would, who in the average, casual audience remembers what happened about 3 years ago on TV?

Red was no main character, she had very little screen-time since season 3, and they didn't develop the character that much at all, and. pretty much most of what they now did with Red, from her searching for her pack up to her falling in love with Dorothy came out of the blue. I have some head canon, making it working quite well for me though, but if you stick rigorously to what was shown on screen, there was not much to see, was there. Exhausting that so much in OUaT so often is left to the imagination of viewers.

At least we got a little more than just Red stepping into Oz, finding sleeping Dorothy a second later and waking her up with true love's kiss. Aurora and Phillip didn't even had that, no before interaction shown to us. But of course we didn't struggle with that, because they are one of the iconic TL pairings by the grace of Disney and the Brothers Grimm. Just a reminder, in the fairy tale versions of Sleeping Beauty and Briar Rose they didn't meet before, in the Grimm tale she slept 100 years, the prince fell in love with rumors and seeing the beauty of the princess, he had no idea of her personality, it didn't matter at all, and she had not even a chance to fall at least for his beautiful smile and body, the kiss just worked. TLK was the beginning of their relationship, not the highlight after a number of dates and months or years of trust building. Thankfully though it didn't work like that in the live action Disney movie, and the two had even met for a few minutes before in that version. I am no fan of that kind of true love super myth, but on the other hand OUaT barely transcends the fairy tales nor the Disney re-tellings anymore, they hardly ever did. The faint idea of fairy tales and fairy tale characters confronted to work with the frame of how things are in more or less our reality got completely lost sometime I think during season 2.

This episode did things as good, or not so good, as OUat is doing things, even the main characters and relationships are underdeveloped often enough. Or the development is not shown on screen as much as we wish for.

Too bad there are not more traditional gay/lesbian/bisexual true love pairings in fairy tales and saga or Disney works around, could have made things so much easier to work with. ;-)

Edited May 8, 2016 by myril
clarity, grammar, spelling

[Curio]

On August 13, 2016 at 11:23 PM, XrystalPond said:

You want your viewers to say, "I did not see that coming, but it totally makes sense." You want your audience to want to rewatch to pick up on missed clues. You don't want your audience to have to do mental gymnastics to reconcile what they saw because the writer mislaid the tracks. 

Responding in the writers thread.

[Hecate7]

On 5/7/2016 at 5:11 PM, legaleagle53 said:

The problem is that it really came out of nowhere.  We never had any indication that Ruby or Dorothy were attracted to other women before it was suddenly sprung on us at the last minute.  Believe me as a gay man, there are always cues that other people pick up on even before we do -- if you had asked me when I was about twelve whether I was gay, I wouldn't have been able to answer you (I didn't even know what "gay" was back then), but everyone around me had read the signs and knew long before I recognized what my sexuality was and could even admit it to myself.  That's why absolutely nobody (and especially nobody in my family) was shocked or even surprised when I finally did come out at the age of 34.

It's the same thing with Ruby Slippers (I have to admit, I do love the shipper name), Sleeping Warrior, and yes, even Swan Queen.  In order for it to be believable for me, I have to have some indication that the parties involved in the respective same-sex ships would even have been inclined that way to start with instead of suddenly having it spring forth full-blown like Athena from the head of Zeus.  Give me a little set-up so that it at least feels organic -- let me see Ruby, Aurora, Emma, or Regina actually looking "that way" at other women (heck, even throw in some flashbacks of them actually dating other women) before you expect me to buy that they'd suddenly start hooking up with women that they've known all of five minutes when all of the signs that I've been given lead me to believe that they're only interested in the sex that has a penis.

To be fair, your family had 34 years to observe you. Ruby's a minor character and has mainly been concerned with looking pretty in her very brief appearances to date. Not everyone even looks "that way" at someone in a recognizable way. Sometimes the tipoff is them failing to look "that way" at the other sex. Ruby qualifies in that apart from the boyfriend she accidentally killed and ate, she's shown no interest at all in men.

I'm remembering a certain bisexual girl I knew who fell abruptly in love with a girl and decided she was gay, because she'd never loved her boyfriends half as much as this other girl. Before that, she had always assumed she was straight, and always dated guys. She was astonished three years later, after the girlfriend had dumped her and moved on, to find out that the NEXT partner she had she loved even more, and this one was male. So not everyone gets much warning about what they are. I'm remembering another woman I used to know, who gave no sign whatsoever that she was anything but straight, who at 45+ fell head over heels with a much younger redhead and lived with her for years. Even she wouldn't have predicted it.

[Shanna Marie]

Because I'm basically Hermione Granger, I watched this one, too, and it was actually better than I remembered (though that isn't saying much). I'd thought it was another one like "The Bear King" that was just a side story without the main cast and had forgotten that it actually kind of inches the plot forward and involves the main cast. The Dorothy/Red stuff doesn't take up much screen time (though that really doesn't help when it comes to them having a TLK after we see them together for about 30 seconds). That plot is mostly about Red working with the others.

Meanwhile, for once we actually get emotional follow-up to the major events that happened in the previous episode. Yeah, it's Rumple and Belle, but this is the rare time that they don't have a serious event that should have big emotional repercussions followed by a centric for some other character so that we never see the characters react to the big event. We actually see the emotional fallout this time.

And then there's the conversation between Hook and David, an actual emotional reaction to the major events that are going on with them. I loved Hook's reaction to David's rant about how awful it was to be in the Underworld. There was this sequence of facial expressions that I would love to go back and slow down to catch all of them. He looked hurt for a second, then seemed to find it amusing that David had said that without realizing who he was talking to and what he was implying, then there was a flash of guilt and pain.

This may be about as close as they come to an ensemble episode because just about everyone but Robin had something to do and a decent scene.

However, the main plot was stupid. I'm still annoyed about the whole "I'm searching for my pack" thing with Red. If she found her pack, they'd kill her. They kicked her out and rejected her. She chose Granny and Snow over them -- the people she left to go look for her pack. Her pack was living in the Enchanted Forest, so they would have been in Storybrooke. Why would they have been portal hopping to Oz? But then apparently they weren't because they weren't there, but she smelled them?

I demand justice for Aunt Em. I noticed in rereading the thread that everyone was sure she'd get freed from the River of Souls, along with Milah and Gaston. Those two were gray, so it was iffy, but putting a purely good character like Aunt Em whose unfinished business was apparently Dorothy in there made it obvious that these people would be freed.

Spoiler

Ha! Suckers! But this is a show about hope ...

[KAOS Agent]

The whole Auntie Em thing pisses me off. She's stuck in the Underworld because Dorothy is her unfinished business, but Dorothy is under a sleeping curse, so Auntie Em can never leave since Dorothy will never truly die. And then even if she did wake up sometime, she could bypass the Underworld like Neal did and Auntie Em would still be stuck forever. I hate the arbitrary and awful nature of this unfinished business nonsense. And now of course, she's been consigned to the River of Lost Souls where she will be a tortured, mindless husk for all eternity. That's not bleak at all. That's all kinds of hope right there. Free Auntie Em!

[profdanglais]

On 5/7/2016 at 11:11 PM, legaleagle53 said:

yes, even Swan Queen

Swan Queen is by far the least believable of those three. But it's important to bring it up. I believe that one main reason Ruby Slippers seemed to come out of nowhere is that there was so much fan demand for an LGBTQ relationship but they had already committed to Captain Swan and didn't seem to want to develop Mulan's sexuality any further, so it's like they said "Okay, which side character can we make gay, or at least bi, to placate the fan base but not ruin any existing ships?" and Ruby was the answer. 

So OF COURSE there were no clues she was bi before, because the writers didn't know until they decided to pull it from their asses one day. TS/TW

[Camera One]

6 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

And now of course, she's been consigned to the River of Lost Souls where she will be a tortured, mindless husk for all eternity. That's not bleak at all. That's all kinds of hope right there. 

Spoiler

And the only pressing unanswered question when the finale came around was who Lily's father was.  

[Shanna Marie]

8 hours ago, profdanglais said:

I believe that one main reason Ruby Slippers seemed to come out of nowhere is that there was so much fan demand for an LGBTQ relationship but they had already committed to Captain Swan and didn't seem to want to develop Mulan's sexuality any further, so it's like they said "Okay, which side character can we make gay, or at least bi, to placate the fan base but not ruin any existing ships?" and Ruby was the answer. 

As I recall, what set all this off was an interview A&E gave (or possibly a panel?) in which they were asked about the possibility of an LGBTQ relationship, and they gave one of their typical noncommittal "we'd be disappointed if it didn't happen" type answers (maybe it was something like "that's definitely something we're considering"). The resulting headlines were all about how the OUAT executive producers said that there would be an LGBTQ relationship on the show, so they had to do it. "The Bear King" was the result, but when viewers were disappointed in that and people pointed out that it was merely subtext, their response was to claim that this wasn't it at all, and when they did it, they'd do it properly and treat it like any of the relationships on the show. And so we got this episode. I suspect they didn't use Mulan because Disney is developing a live-action version, and Disney doesn't seem to like them altering Disney canon for the characters who are still in use -- you can't put them with someone who isn't their Disney canon partner. I imagine if they'd known they'd be doing a live-action Beauty and the Beast during the first season, Disney would have had issues with Rumple being the Beast.

8 hours ago, profdanglais said:

So OF COURSE there were no clues she was bi before, because the writers didn't know until they decided to pull it from their asses one day.

I think there they had a clash of characterization and worldbuilding. They could have pulled off no one acting like it was any big deal when she went from relationships with men to falling in True Love with a woman if they'd shown that the Enchanted Forest world had very different attitudes about sex and gender than our world has, if it was more of a pansexual kind of place where you fall in love with a person and gender is irrelevant or even if it was a place where homosexuality and bisexuality were commonly accepted. But that's not the kind of world they've depicted. There have been no same-sex couples shown, not just in the main characters but also in the background. We haven't seen two women clinging to each other in terror while Regina slaughters their village or a groom heartbroken after Regina rips out and crushes the heart of his new husband at their wedding. We've seen no same-sex couples walking hand in hand, etc. So what we have here is people from a world with no same-sex relationships whose modern life memory download is from a place stuck in the 80s, but when a woman who's dated men falls in love with a woman, it doesn't give her or the friend who's known her for years a moment's pause.

[Camera One]

The fact that was a one-off episode never to be mentioned again made it more disingenious.  This was the second time they brought Red back but completely ignored her relationship with Granny, which makes it clear they are not looking at her character as a whole.  They could have inserted her with Princess and the Pea who asks them for help to find Dorothy, and what would have been different?  Maybe Dorothy dishes out the nickname Peabrain instead of Wolfie.

[Shanna Marie]

In re-reading through the thread, I found it amusing that we were joking about Rumple doing a Weekend at Bernie's sort of thing with Belle under the sleeping curse, just propping her up or letting her lie there while he monologues at her. Little did we know

Spoiler

that the reality would be even more amusing, as he put her in a little box that he carried around and monologued at. Belle was replaced by a little box, and it changed almost nothing about her role in the show.

There was also speculation about who would TLK her, in case it didn't work with her father, with the suggestion that Grumpy could do a friend kiss. I think it would be more fun to have Hook do a friend kiss and let Rumple's head explode, if only they'd bothered to really develop the friendship that started in season 4. But then I realized that since we saw her save his life (choosing him over Rumple getting power and freedom), they worked together for six weeks to figure out how to de-hat the fairies, then she trusted him enough that she gave the person she thought was him the dagger, and then they commiserated over loving a Dark One, and offscreen he apparently talked to her about what happened with his brother, they're way ahead of Red and Dorothy in establishing a relationship, so maybe they could pull off a friend/surrogate sibling TLK.

[tennisgurl]

Hello token treatment my old friend!

This episode seems to so clearly exist because fans were complaining about the lack of LBGTQ visibility in the show, especially with a vocal part of the fandom obsession with Swan Queen, so they decided to throw this half assed bone to them so that A&E could brag about how awesome and progressive they are having a W/W true loves kiss. Of course, its a relationship built upon, what, a day of knowing each other and spending half that time with Dorothy being pissy and annoyed with Dorothy and Mulan for no reason? And they get true loves kiss? This really is the season where TLK starts to mean absolutely nothing, literally anyone can give it and get it after about five seconds of making go go eyes at each other. So thats your LGBTQ rep fans! You can one couple for one episode that has nothing to do with the plot, and will never be seen or referenced again. So progressive! Its obvious that they just want get those tumbler progressive points, but without actually bothering to commit to writing an LGBTQ couple. 

Like others have said, this does raise some questions about how accepted LGBTQ people are in the EF (or in fantasy Kansas? Or Oz? Or whatever?) considering before this we have never seen any kind of non hetero people around, even in the background, but apparently its common enough that both Mulan and Snow right away are telling Ruby how hot she is for Dorothy, especially obvious with Snow, who has never even MET this person her BFF is obsessed with. If the EF culture is totally cool with bi/pan/gay people and its not even an issue, or its considered normal for people to date anyone not based around gender, thats decently interesting for the setting, but we have never seen it, heard about it, and before this, LGBTQ people might as well have not existed! Of course we know little or nothing about ANY society on this show and how they feel about gender/queerness/race/religion/class/history/anything, so I guess they're consistent in their lazy world building. And poor Mulan, she has to watch everyone and their sister fall in love, while she is perpetually left alone. 

I do really love the Charming and Hook scene, it almost makes the whole episode worthwhile. The bit where Charming is saying how they should have never come and Hook is visibly hurt but trying to hide it is really well acted, as is David realizing what he said and apologizing. And he even admits that he might have come down for Hook himself because he has grown on him. Considering David is the only person in the rescue party that Hook really has a relationship with beside Emma at this point, it was nice to see that someone other than Emma actually went for Hook himself, and not just because Hook is a two for one deal with Emma now. 

[KingOfHearts]

I completely forgot Belle cursed herself, LOL. She was always such a prop. This show was so hilarious in all the most unintentional ways. 

[Camera One]

At this point in the season, the Writers were eager to drop off all their most boring characters.  Belle cursed herself.  Robin retreated to the forest.  And Ms. I Don't Want To Be Mary Margaret Anymore! went off to do some babysitting.

[tennisgurl]

Justice for Aunt Em! 

[Shanna Marie]

15 hours ago, Camera One said:

At this point in the season, the Writers were eager to drop off all their most boring characters.  Belle cursed herself.  Robin retreated to the forest.  And Ms. I Don't Want To Be Mary Margaret Anymore! went off to do some babysitting.

In the show's defense, one of those was a way to write in a maternity leave and another was a way to write in a leave to promote a movie. But it was probably a relief to not have to write for the characters they didn't care about. I'm not sure why they bothered bringing Robin back in 4B if they were going to more or less ditch him in Camelot in 5A and send him off into the woods in 5B. They wrote him off, then brought him back only to keep him almost entirely offscreen for most of the season.

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 4/17/2016 at 9:28 PM, ABitOFluff said:

I knew what was coming, but I was sort of hoping Toto would give Dorothy the TLK. Hey, a grumpy girl's best friend is her little dog! In the end, I didn't mind the idea of Red and Dorothy and I liked their kiss afterwards.I wasn't really invested in MulanRouge, and Mulan will be okay. She find her own warrior.

 

 

Genius!