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(I do criticize her for lying about tequila night, making promises she would never keep about cutting her parents and Christopher out of her life, and not respecting Luke's desire for space.)

I dislike her evasion as well although technically it was Rory that started that chain of events.

LORELAI: I had a bad night’s sleep last night.
LUKE: Oh, yeah? What happened?
LORELAI: Well –
RORY: Oh, I kept her up pretty late, you know, girl talk.

Lorelai does know it was wrong, Unfortunately she lets Rory talk her into it.

LORELAI: I shouldn’t have lied about where I was last night. I’m over nineteen and lying to my boyfriend about stuff. That’s wrong.
RORY: Okay.
LORELAI: I could just say his father died and I went over to comfort him. With tequila. Which we drank, all night long, alone.
RORY: He didn’t need to know. It’s better that he doesn’t know.
 

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It's a little odd that Rory was so concerned that Luke knew about Lorelai hanging with Christopher in Norman Mailer... but advocated Lorelai lie to Luke about tequila night. I guess it makes twisted sense with Rory's flaws even as they show in love for her mother. Rory was concerned on whether Lorelai covered her bases before hanging with Christopher so there wouldn't be any unpleasantness from Luke finding out. However Lorelai and Rory both felt there was a controversial quality to Lorelai and Chris doing tequila shots all night, alone. It's the cliched prologue to hooking up. So since Rory thought Lorelai was in for unpleasantness with Luke based on what already occurred, Rory's solution was to lie. It's a pattern of Rory's where easing feelings and situations matters more than honesty. 

I still blame Lorelai though. It's her relationship- not Rory's. She also experienced Luke being very cool and understanding about her hanging with Christopher (even if Lorelai told him after) so she was particularly disrespecting Luke to act like he "can't handle the truth."

Lorelai has that split too where she counsels Rory not to tell Dean about kissing Tristan but she refuses to lie or condone Rory lying to Dean about tutoring Jess. However Lorelai's position makes more sense. It's the difference between lying v. omission and the difference between Rory accounting for her time with a romantic rival when she and Dean were split up versus when they were together.

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6 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I will add that while I was on Luke's side here, I don't criticize Lorelai for her stunned mild reaction like the "Chris, don't" or getting rooked into the family photo instead of following Luke. I think Christopher's and Emily's ambush was just that shocking that even though her heart absolutely wanted to fight for Luke, she was stymied by the What The Hell?! of the evening.

I don't give Lorelai an easy pass here. Was she stunned in the moment? Probably. But she had no problem telling Chris to get out of her way as Luke was literally just rounding the corner when he removed himself from the scene. She couldn't have found her voice 30 seconds earlier? And really as Luke said later, she should have seen this coming and Lorelai agreed. Not to the degree it happened but that Emily eventually would invoke drastic measures because Lorelai was fully aware of Emily not approving of Luke.

And really, check out the way LG played that scene. She doesn't look nearly shocked enough to be rendered speechless. And my favorite is the look she throws Luke after the 'Chris, don't.'. If I had to translate Lorelai's look into words it would have been 'Chris, don't say it out loud while he's right there.'

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Emily, at least, apologized and did what she could to reverse herself.

Emily didn't apologize, she admitted defeat. There's a difference.

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Christopher was just lying in his own "It was a misunderstanding" emails.

Using his daughter to get to Lorelai, yet again. Well at least the guy is consistent.

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Emily didn't apologize, she admitted defeat. There's a difference.

Yes.  Honestly, the only way I can like Emily (and most of the time, I do) is to write that whole thing off as just a really bad story choice on the part of ASP.  It took Emily into cartoon villain territory.  And she never, ever was sorry that she did it.  She only tried to fix it because she didn't want the girls to be mad at her anymore.  That's probably why I have no problem that

Spoiler

she wasn't at the wedding.  She may have accepted Luke because that's who Lorelai chose but she never liked him or wanted him for her.  So, whatever. 

Spoilers for the revival just in case.

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26 minutes ago, hippielamb said:

Chris went about it all wrong but I believe he still thought he could get her back.

What the hell does it matter what he wants? Why does he always deem the right time for them to go for it again? The only time they both decided to give it a shot was at the end of S2. And that wouldn't have happened if his relationship with Sherry wasn't on the rocks. It's been 19 years since she's had Rory. Ample time in those years to try. Also why not go for her right away when Sherry left him in S5 (like in S2)? I saw nothing prior to WBB that indicated romantic feelings on Chris' part. And she is not his to get back. Is Lorelai some kind of trophy to be won?

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Lorelai not telling him of her relationship makes it appear that she's not as committed as she claims. They had spent time together (helping with G.G., tequila night, talking on the phone) and during none of this does she mention that she's in a relationship. Yes, Rory told him but Lorelai is the one he has the connection with, yet she says nothing. It gives credence to Christopher's attitude of Luke as a placeholder. 

That's just Lorelai and her compartmentalization. Luke is not part of her Chris world and vice versa. I thought we discussed that a few months ago in the S7 thread. Lorelai doesn't tell Luke about Chris stuff just as much as she doesn't tell Chris about Luke stuff. That one time when she told Chris she would visit Luke and April at the hospital was the only time she didn't stay true to form. Could have been finally some character growth but it was just a fluke because she went right back into that behavior pattern after.

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Chris is more than the father of her child. He's someone she has tonnes of history with, and they have a bond. Cutting ties with the person you share a child with is not easy and the ramifications can affect your child. Lorelai wanted Chris and Rory to have a good relationship, that was partly why she invited Rory to their lunch. She knows that Rory will follow her lead in regards to Chris. If she is on the outs with him, so will Rory. 

They have history. Big deal. Everybody does. And if we are talking strictly in years, Luke has just as much history with her. Rory can still have a relationship with Chris even if Lorelai doesn't. And seriously by the time we get to S5 Rory is old enough to decide for herself what kind of relationship she wants to have with her father independent of Lorelai. And the only times Rory was also freezing out Chris the same time as Lorelai was after the S2 debacle and both girls feelings were hurt. And after the WBB fiasco and even that didn't go long since she had contact with her father not long after again.

Chris is generally the one (except for the 2 examples I mentioned) who drops his relationship with his daughter if things went wrong with him and Lorelai. Luke and Rory had the kind of relationship Chris should have been having with his daughter. Because Luke didn't let whatever was between him and Lorelai effect his relationship with Rory. Even when Lorelai and Luke were fighting or on the outs, Luke and Rory still had a relationship independent of that. Chris, as the father, should never let whatever is between him and the mother get in the way of his relationship with his daughter. But that's exactly what usually happened.

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1 hour ago, Smad said:

That's just Lorelai and her compartmentalization. Luke is not part of her Chris world and vice versa. I thought we discussed that a few months ago in the S7 thread. Lorelai doesn't tell Luke about Chris stuff just as much as she doesn't tell Chris about Luke stuff.

This compartmentalization is why I thought S5-S6 Lorelai was not really committed to Luke, in spite of her proposal. I cannot fathom someone who would knowingly do that, then claim she was all in.

Of course, she was following in her father's footsteps with Pennilyn Lott, so maybe it's less the psychological concept of compartmentalization than it is the culture of the society she grew up in. Even if she didn't find out that Richard had done that with Pennilyn, there were plenty of other examples in that society. 

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16 hours ago, Smad said:

I don't give Lorelai an easy pass here. Was she stunned in the moment? Probably. But she had no problem telling Chris to get out of her way as Luke was literally just rounding the corner when he removed himself from the scene. She couldn't have found her voice 30 seconds earlier? And really as Luke said later, she should have seen this coming and Lorelai agreed. Not to the degree it happened but that Emily eventually would invoke drastic measures because Lorelai was fully aware of Emily not approving of Luke.

And really, check out the way LG played that scene. She doesn't look nearly shocked enough to be rendered speechless. And my favorite is the look she throws Luke after the 'Chris, don't.'. If I had to translate Lorelai's look into words it would have been 'Chris, don't say it out loud while he's right there.'

But listen to the harshness of your point "She couldn't have found her voice 30 seconds earlier." I have a hard time blaming characters for a 30-something delay, especially in a shocking moment. 

I see your point. I do think Lorelai's behavior in that scene could be taken as part and parcel of her more obvious commitment/compartmentalization issues. However, like, the look Lorelai throws at Luke *is* noticeable. I thought for awhile that it was "Chris, don't say what you're saying out loud because we're are meant to be together." However, I've come to disagree. I don't think Lorelai agrees with Chris at all that Luke is a placeholder or she and Chris are meant for each other and it's somehow meaningful that everyone/Emily knows it. I've come to believe that Lorelai says "Chris, don't" as a plea for Chris to please not continue with hurting her and Luke.  

9 hours ago, hippielamb said:

Chris went about it all wrong but I believe he still thought he could get her back. Lorelai not telling him of her relationship makes it appear that she's not as committed as she claims. They had spent time together (helping with G.G., tequila night, talking on the phone) and during none of this does she mention that she's in a relationship. Yes, Rory told him but Lorelai is the one he has the connection with, yet she says nothing. It gives credence to Christopher's attitude of Luke as a placeholder. 

Chris is more than the father of her child. He's someone she has tonnes of history with, and they have a bond. Cutting ties with the person you share a child with is not easy and the ramifications can affect your child. Lorelai wanted Chris and Rory to have a good relationship, that was partly why she invited Rory to their lunch. She knows that Rory will follow her lead in regards to Chris. If she is on the outs with him, so will Rory. 

Just because Chris thought he could steal Lorelai away doesn't, in any way, justify his actions. It's just a universal social rule that when someone is in a serious relationship, you respect that. Christopher had enough facts from Rory and Emily that Lorelai was in a serious relationship with Luke. It's because of those facts that Christopher hightailed over to the reception with an urgent IT'S NOT TOO LATE plea instead just, like waiting for Luke and Lorelai to burn itself out. It also speaks volumes of the total lack of respect that Christopher has for Lorelai that he could hear that from two different sources that Lorelai made a choice to be a committed relationship with Luke but Christopher, without speaking to Luke or speaking to Lorelai about it, can assume that Lorelai's choice in Luke is wrong or merely place-holdery or shouldn't be accorded the universal respect of not shouting at the couple WOMAN, LEAVE THIS GUY FOR MEEEEEE! in so many words. 

Another dimension that puts Christopher's conduct even further beneath contempt is that his own daughter asked him to not to interfere in Lorelai's and Luke's relationship. Rory was concerned enough that Lorelai even socializing with Christopher would break up L/L. Christopher took it even further and made a BREAK UP WITH HIM plea, regardless of how Rory even underlined the "I ask you for ONE thing and you can't give me that." 

By S5, Rory didn't live at home and was in the college nominal adult-stage of life. It was no longer Lorelai's job to foster a relationship with Christopher and Rory. If it was ever was- I'd say that obligation should have always been on Christopher to build a relationship with child!Rory. However, yes, when Rory was a child living at home, Lorelai shaped Rory's schedule and how she spent her time. It was incumbent on Lorelai to make sure that time was carved out for Rory's father and to make sure that Rory had that dimension in her life. However, once Rory got to college, it became Rory's job to decide who she wants to associate with and how she wants to spend her time. So, no, I don't think Lorelai had to associate with Chris for Rory's sake.

Now, I'll even say that I think Lorelai has a right to still have a friendship with Christopher even if she's dating Luke because of their friendship/history. However, that's where the association makes sense. Because of *their* history. However, Lorelai and Chris shouldn't have to associate for Chris to have a relationship with Rory. I mean, I know that's how it works in reality because I don't even believe that Chris loved Rory or had any interest in her beyond as a way to Lorelai. However, that's a miserable reality that should never be indulged. And if Lorelai wanted to continue dating Luke (and she did in S5), it was incumbent on her to find a way to interact with Chris that wasn't disloyal or hurtful to Luke. I think the precedent carved out in Normal Mailer....where Luke was cool with Lorelai interacting with Christopher in an ostensible platonic setting if she was ultimately honest with him about it couldn't be more reasonable. That's a good place for them to indulge their friendship. They don't need to play on the borders of infidelity in banging out tequila shots all night together alone or Lorelai going from 0 to 60 to bang him after Luke didn't take her marriage ultimatum. Then, it's not about Lorelai's and Christopher's friendship history but instead, Lorelai trying to have two romantic interests at the same time. 

Edited by Melancholy
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On Saturday, December 03, 2016 at 0:37 AM, Smad said:

What the hell does it matter what he wants? Why does he always deem the right time for them to go for it again? The only time they both decided to give it a shot was at the end of S2. And that wouldn't have happened if his relationship with Sherry wasn't on the rocks. It's been 19 years since she's had Rory. Ample time in those years to try. Also why not go for her right away when Sherry left him in S5 (like in S2)? I saw nothing prior to WBB that indicated romantic feelings on Chris' part. And she is not his to get back. Is Lorelai some kind of trophy to be won?

That's just Lorelai and her compartmentalization. Luke is not part of her Chris world and vice versa. I thought we discussed that a few months ago in the S7 thread. Lorelai doesn't tell Luke about Chris stuff just as much as she doesn't tell Chris about Luke stuff. That one time when she told Chris she would visit Luke and April at the hospital was the only time she didn't stay true to form. Could have been finally some character growth but it was just a fluke because she went right back into that behavior pattern after.

They have history. Big deal. Everybody does. And if we are talking strictly in years, Luke has just as much history with her. Rory can still have a relationship with Chris even if Lorelai doesn't. And seriously by the time we get to S5 Rory is old enough to decide for herself what kind of relationship she wants to have with her father independent of Lorelai. And the only times Rory was also freezing out Chris the same time as Lorelai was after the S2 debacle and both girls feelings were hurt. And after the WBB fiasco and even that didn't go long since she had contact with her father not long after again.

Chris is generally the one (except for the 2 examples I mentioned) who drops his relationship with his daughter if things went wrong with him and Lorelai. Luke and Rory had the kind of relationship Chris should have been having with his daughter. Because Luke didn't let whatever was between him and Lorelai effect his relationship with Rory. Even when Lorelai and Luke were fighting or on the outs, Luke and Rory still had a relationship independent of that. Chris, as the father, should never let whatever is between him and the mother get in the way of his relationship with his daughter. But that's exactly what usually happened.

It does matter if you care about the character of Chris. Which I do. He gets criticism for not telling Lorelai about Sherry back in season 2 until she made a move on him. Lorelai is doing a similar thing by not telling Chris about Luke. Which is fine, it's her prerogative but it does contribute to the drama at the wedding.

She has known Christopher since childhood, they were teenagers together, and they remained friends/sometimes sleeping together. That's a lot of history. Lorelai has admitted more than once that she was waiting for him to get it together. This isn't about her relationship with Luke. I am saying that her long history and closeness with Chris would make it difficult to cut him out forever just because he aligned himself with Emily. Indeed, when they do reconnect in season 6, they are friendly and relaxed again. 

 

On Saturday, December 03, 2016 at 8:38 AM, Melancholy said:

Just because Chris thought he could steal Lorelai away doesn't, in any way, justify his actions. It's just a universal social rule that when someone is in a serious relationship, you respect that. Christopher had enough facts from Rory and Emily that Lorelai was in a serious relationship with Luke. It's because of those facts that Christopher hightailed over to the reception with an urgent IT'S NOT TOO LATE plea instead just, like waiting for Luke and Lorelai to burn itself out. It also speaks volumes of the total lack of respect that Christopher has for Lorelai that he could hear that from two different sources that Lorelai made a choice to be a committed relationship with Luke but Christopher, without speaking to Luke or speaking to Lorelai about it, can assume that Lorelai's choice in Luke is wrong or merely place-holdery or shouldn't be accorded the universal respect of not shouting at the couple WOMAN, LEAVE THIS GUY FOR MEEEEEE! in so many words. 

Another dimension that puts Christopher's conduct even further beneath contempt is that his own daughter asked him to not to interfere in Lorelai's and Luke's relationship. Rory was concerned enough that Lorelai even socializing with Christopher would break up L/L. Christopher took it even further and made a BREAK UP WITH HIM plea, regardless of how Rory even underlined the "I ask you for ONE thing and you can't give me that." 

By S5, Rory didn't live at home and was in the college nominal adult-stage of life. It was no longer Lorelai's job to foster a relationship with Christopher and Rory. If it was ever was- I'd say that obligation should have always been on Christopher to build a relationship with child!Rory. However, yes, when Rory was a child living at home, Lorelai shaped Rory's schedule and how she spent her time. It was incumbent on Lorelai to make sure that time was carved out for Rory's father and to make sure that Rory had that dimension in her life. However, once Rory got to college, it became Rory's job to decide who she wants to associate with and how she wants to spend her time. So, no, I don't think Lorelai had to associate with Chris for Rory's sake.

Now, I'll even say that I think Lorelai has a right to still have a friendship with Christopher even if she's dating Luke because of their friendship/history. However, that's where the association makes sense. Because of *their* history. However, Lorelai and Chris shouldn't have to associate for Chris to have a relationship with Rory. I mean, I know that's how it works in reality because I don't even believe that Chris loved Rory or had any interest in her beyond as a way to Lorelai. However, that's a miserable reality that should never be indulged. And if Lorelai wanted to continue dating Luke (and she did in S5), it was incumbent on her to find a way to interact with Chris that wasn't disloyal or hurtful to Luke. I think the precedent carved out in Normal Mailer....where Luke was cool with Lorelai interacting with Christopher in an ostensible platonic setting if she was ultimately honest with him about it couldn't be more reasonable. That's a good place for them to indulge their friendship. They don't need to play on the borders of infidelity in banging out tequila shots all night together alone or Lorelai going from 0 to 60 to bang him after Luke didn't take her marriage ultimatum. Then, it's not about Lorelai's and Christopher's friendship history but instead, Lorelai trying to have two romantic interests at the same time. 

It may some kind of universal rule to respect others relationships, not everyone does especially babydaddys who are still in love with their ex. This kind of thing happens in real life too. 

It shouldn't be up to Lorelai to nurture a relationship between Rory and her dad. The problem is that Chris and Rory are so passive, their relationship suffers as a result. Lorelai pushes Rory to contact Chris after he pays for Yale. Which leads to them having a better relationship in season 6. If Lorelai hadn't done that, they wouldn't bother.

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3 hours ago, hippielamb said:

He gets criticism for not telling Lorelai about Sherry back in season 2 until she made a move on him. Lorelai is doing a similar thing by not telling Chris about Luke. Which is fine, it's her prerogative but it does contribute to the drama at the wedding.

In season 2 Christopher had proposed to Lorelai and told her "she was the one" six months earlier.  In season 5, they hadn't seen each other much for more than 2 years while Chris was married to Sherry, and he only called when he needed help with Gigi.  There wouldn't have been a reason for her to mention she was dating someone the night she went to help with Gigi, and after that Rory told him.  Chris was way out of line for going to Emily's wedding to try to get Lorelai back without warning--when he told her he was dating Sherry she backed off immediately due to consideration for him and his relationship. 

4 hours ago, hippielamb said:

It shouldn't be up to Lorelai to nurture a relationship between Rory and her dad. The problem is that Chris and Rory are so passive, their relationship suffers as a result.

I agree, it's not up to Lorelai to nurture Rory and her dad's relationship.  But it shouldn't be Rory's responsibility either--Christopher is the parent.  He should either make the effort to be in her life or not, and never ever whine about all that "he" missed out on.

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8 hours ago, hippielamb said:

Lorelai is doing a similar thing by not telling Chris about Luke. Which is fine, it's her prerogative but it does contribute to the drama at the wedding.

Wonder how ASP missed mentioning this. 

Luke was on shaky ground leaving because there was an argument.

If Christopher had followed up the 'for now' bit with 'she never even told me you were dating' it would have gone nuclear for Lorelai.

Luke overreacted by leaving, but it wouldn't have been an overreaction if he suddenly found out that not only had she done tequila night, but never found one moment in all her Christopher encounters to tell him she was seeing Luke and he was a steady boyfriend. 

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Well, Rory told Lorelai in Emily Says Hello that she told Christopher to stay away because Lorelai was in a serious relationship. On my phone or I'd copy the transcript. So Lorelai knew that Christopher knew enough to realize that Lorelai chose to be in a serious relationship and it was on him to choose to obey applicable ethical and social rules.

 I still don't think Luke overreacted. He was really treated like dirt and he had every right to peace out. 

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20 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Well, Rory told Lorelai in Emily Says Hello that she told Christopher to stay away because Lorelai was in a serious relationship. On my phone or I'd copy the transcript. So Lorelai knew that Christopher knew enough to realize that Lorelai chose to be in a serious relationship and it was on him to choose to obey applicable ethical and social rules.

 I still don't think Luke overreacted. He was really treated like dirt and he had every right to peace out. 

I'll give you that one on the overreacting. I vacillate from "he deserved honesty from her" to "if he'd stayed five more minutes they would have worked it out." The lying, omission and sudden confession always makes me think that Lorelai is really trying to keep both on the string. 

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17 minutes ago, junienmomo said:

The lying, omission and sudden confession always makes me think that Lorelai is really trying to keep both on the string. 

That's my take on it, too, and that's exactly why I don't think Luke over-reacted at all.  Even if Lorelai wasn't consciously trying to keep both guys happy, it would sure come across that way in the heat of the moment. 

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I was just going through the S6 thread and thinking about the big Lorelai-Rory rift and how L handled it (or didn't handle it rather) and made me think about their earlier (although shorter) rift at the beginning of this season after the Dean reveal.

In contrast to their S5 finale-S6 fight, I think Lorelai handled this situation much better. Rory OTOH was such a brat (prior to the stinky cheese conversation that is). 

I don't even think Lorelai overreacted to catching Dean and Rory. One, I can't imagine any parent reacting well to that development. Two, it was truths that Rory needed to hear. And even after Rory tried to shut down any Dean talk,  Lorelai still attempted to offer advice/to be a confidant.  I'm even going to defend Lorelai's "pull back, lady!" to Lindsay's mom. Look, I completely understand Lindsay being pissed and her mom as well and they had every right to rail against Rory, but there was no way Lorelai was going to stand there and let Theresa (was that her name) brand Rory with a scarlet "A" in the town square. At least Rory seemed somewhat remorseful at that point.

Then after Dean and Rory officially get back together, Lorelai's clearly uncomfortable, yet accepts it and tries to make the best of an awkward situation. 

I don't even know why I'm bringing this up LOL. I suppose it's because I find it sad that Lorelai was able to support Rory - even though she made a very questionable decision and it wasn't one that Lorelai agreed with at all - and then at the end of the season, it's a very different story in how she chooses to deal with what she sees as a betrayal (even though technically I think Lorelai counted Rory sleeping with Dean while he was still married a betrayal because she thought she raised her better than that.)

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Yeah, I agree Lorelai was good to Rory about the Dean-mess even though I think she was terrible about the dropping out of Yale. I don't think Lorleai should have done double-dating with Rory and Dean and tried hanging with Dean. I thought that was a bridge too far and there was a way of supporting/not-slutshaming Rory without normalizing the relationship this way. I also don't think Rory was particularly looking to normalize the relationship this way and Lorelai was sort of speaking for Rory to try to jam the new Rory/Dean into S1 Rory/Dean/Lorelai. However, I think Lorelai's heart was absolutely in the right place. 

Edited by Melancholy
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I will also amend that it was pretty manipulative for Lorelai to try to push Rory into going to Europe with Emily in a "Young lady acts up so she should be sent to Europe" sort of way and then, judge Rory for leaving Dean. It's an "All's well that ends well" sort of thing because Rory did want to go to Europe. However, Lorelai did a little micro-aggression to put Rory on the spot to argue against going to Europe or agree going to to Europe and get "You DO want to go? What about Dean?!" questions. Rory's choices were bad there, but Lorelai did tilt a little to an odd passive aggressive peevish punishment. It's not the worst thing and Rory was really testing Lorelai- but it's not model parenting. 

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Yeah, I'll give you that. It was moderately passive aggressive, but Rory's such a brat that I'm kind of like eh. 

I guess I find it laughable because at 19 I would have loved to have had an all expense paid trip to Europe! Although I don't think Emily would be my ideal travel partner, but it's one of those situations where Rory doesn't even see her privilege.

And then later on when she's complaining about how everyone had a productive summer and she went to Europe, I'm dumbstruck. Yeah, Rory...you went to Europe. Turn that into a piece for the paper! 

Ugh. For a smart girl, Rory can be daft sometimes. 

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I am finishing up episode 8 ("The Party Is Over") of this season and really am at a lost on Rory and Dean's whole relationship. It does not take much for them to get (back) together or break up. I have always seen this relationship as lacking...passion is not the right word, since they are so young, but they are boring together and boring when they break up. Sadly, Logan is no prize either. I see where that is going already. If I can't have Jess, why not Marty?

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3 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I am finishing up episode 8 ("The Party Is Over") of this season and really am at a lost on Rory and Dean's whole relationship. It does not take much for them to get (back) together or break up. I have always seen this relationship as lacking...passion is not the right word, since they are so young, but they are boring together and boring when they break up. Sadly, Logan is no prize either. I see where that is going already. If I can't have Jess, why not Marty?

I very much agree with you. I find Dean and Rory's relationship very confusing.

Up until S3 they were writen as the chaste, innocent first love that Rory outgrew and took too long to let go. That worked for me. But then, Jared Padalecki's avaliability or whatever had him be around even after their break up in S3 and that's when things started getting messy and not working for me. I didn't buy the tension Dean's presence created while Rory was with Jess and I definitely never really bought her renewed interest in him in S4. And I say that because by mid-season 2 Rory was written and played as if she was completely sick of him, IMHO.

They seem like very much a case of two people who think they were a lot better together than they actually were.

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27 minutes ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

They seem like very much a case of two people who think they were a lot better together than they actually were.

YES! That is what it is. They were written one way but what was on the screen was something else.

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I found it believable that they were using each other to escape from the troubles in their lives--Rory struggling to adjust to being in college and Dean getting married at such a young age.  I agree Rory was pretty sick of him then, but a year at college with only one date made him look pretty special.  It's sad but true that most girls that age who aren't dating feel like they'll never have a boyfriend again.

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Well, I just finished season 5. Logan's grandfather and mother took a page from Emily. Speaking of Emily, I wish that Luke would have stood up to her. Christopher continues to irk. Lane's story is actually pretty tragic to me. Not because she is a musician because I think that rocks, but her boyfriend--as much as I love the actor--he offers Lane nothing. 

And Rory. Rory, Rory, Rory! I dislike Logan but it was typical that Luke and Lorelai would blame him alone for Rory deciding with him to steal a yacht. And it is typical Gilmore Girl fashion to get upset (Rory leaving Yale) when things are not going one of their ways.

Edited by Enigma X
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On 12/3/2016 at 0:37 AM, Smad said:

(Chris & Lorelai) have history. Big deal. Everybody does. And if we are talking strictly in years, Luke has just as much history with her.

I'm sorry but no.  Luke does not have just as much history with Lorelai and Rory.  Chris and Lorelai have known each other since they were children, and were certainly more than friends by the time they were 15 years old.  By the time we hit season 5 that is more than 20 years and a child.

Luke and Lorelei had been friends for about 10 years at that point (many things in the show back this up - Luke knew nothing about Rory's 8th birthday party.  Lorelai knew nothing about his serious girlfriends Anna and Rachel).  And had only been dating about ... what?  6 months?

I get not liking Christopher, but it can't be denied that he has more of a history with Lorelai than Luke does.

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I think Chris and Lorelai may have known each other for more than 35 years. They are 37 in S5. I thought they knew each other as babies. So they have way more history in years than Lorelai and Luke.

That said, I don't rate that history highly. Christopher was a transient limited part of Lorelai's life for the last 20 years. And those 20 years most definitively shaped Lorelai's current life because she rejected a lot of aspects of her childhood. He actually showed up the most in the last 5 years and his presence is still very limited and superficial. When his life drastically changes or the Girls' lives change, they play catchup way after the fact. It can't be compared to how Lorelai and Luke have seen each other multiple times a day most days for the last 10 years.

So yeah. Lorelai and Christopher knew each other longer in years. It still doesn't change my read that Lorelai finds it impossible to cut off Christopher because of the romantic/familial possibility that he represents instead of because he's so deeply rooted in her daily life and way her family relates that she can't cut him out except for group interactions. 

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I always viewed it as Christopher was deeply in her life until she moved to Stars Hollow, and Luke was in her life eight years before WITS and grew ever deeper. In other words, Christopher was her childhood and Luke was her adulthood.

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2 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I think Chris and Lorelai may have known each other for more than 35 years. They are 37 in S5. I thought they knew each other as babies. So they have way more history in years than Lorelai and Luke.

They knew each other as children (?) and teenagers. After that as Lorelai has said, they saw Chris maybe once a year. So while they have met when they were young and spend years in each others orbit as children I don't think it amounts to much more years than Lorelai and Luke.

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They knew each other as children (?) and teenagers.

When I am with people I knew as a child I have fond memories but I don't feel as if I know them at all that well.  Kids just don't connect on that level.   Teenagers are a little better but are mostly driven by hormones.  What did Chris and "Lor" really do together as teenagers?  Discuss how horrible their parents were?  Fantasize about how fab it would be to go backpacking through Europe?  Raid the liquor cabinet?  Have sex?  Not a deep, intellectual relationship.

In my opinion, you really don't know someone until adulthood when you are capable of having meaningful conversations and well-formed (rather than reactive) opinions.  But maybe that's just me.

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Tbh I don't think it matters how much history two people have. If someone becomes toxic or bad for you then you should cut them off. Plain and simple. I'm not saying it's easy, but ultimately, imo, Christopher proved to not be a good friend and Lorelai should have for her own sake just let it go.

Holding a torch for Christopher was always unhealthy. He should have just been the father of her daughter and nothing more anyways. In my opinion, he's always been a deadbeat and Lorelai should not have considered him a viable love interest after he showed such little consideration for *their* daughter. 

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On 12/19/2016 at 8:06 PM, FrumiusManxome said:

Tbh I don't think it matters how much history two people have. If someone becomes toxic or bad for you then you should cut them off. Plain and simple. I'm not saying it's easy, but ultimately, imo, Christopher proved to not be a good friend and Lorelai should have for her own sake just let it go.

Holding a torch for Christopher was always unhealthy. He should have just been the father of her daughter and nothing more anyways. In my opinion, he's always been a deadbeat and Lorelai should not have considered him a viable love interest after he showed such little consideration for *their* daughter. 

Yes, very much in agreement with this. Furthermore, I interpreted this as a sign that Lorelai was choosing to stay immature. She got pregnant at 15, gave birth at 16. Then she carries a torch for a 15 year old boyfriend for multiple decades? This is a choice, and it was stupid. 

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33 minutes ago, junienmomo said:

Yes, very much in agreement with this. Furthermore, I interpreted this as a sign that Lorelai was choosing to stay immature. She got pregnant at 15, gave birth at 16. Then she carries a torch for a 15 year old boyfriend for multiple decades? This is a choice, and it was stupid. 

And isn't it funny and ironic then that Lorelai complains about the fact that her parents can't let it go that she had a kid at 16? Look who's talking.

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10 hours ago, Smad said:

And isn't it funny and ironic then that Lorelai complains about the fact that her parents can't let it go that she had a kid at 16? Look who's talking.

Yeah, she does cut herself slack when she chooses to not behave like a grown up. Almost never choosing to end a conflict with Emily in an adult manner, or lying when it's unnecessary and hurtful, or the whole early season pre-teen behavior about Luke and his feelings for her.

The Emily stuff is the worst for her overall. If she had consistently refused to accept criticisms that should have stopped decades before, Lorelai would have been much happier.

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4 hours ago, junienmomo said:

If she had consistently refused to accept criticisms that should have stopped decades before, Lorelai would have been much happier.

I'm not sure, not having had a huge problem with this myself.  But I would imagine refusing to accept criticisms from your mother, let alone internalizing them into your own self-image, is in the range of very difficult to impossible.

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8 hours ago, junienmomo said:

Yeah, she does cut herself slack when she chooses to not behave like a grown up. Almost never choosing to end a conflict with Emily in an adult manner, or lying when it's unnecessary and hurtful, or the whole early season pre-teen behavior about Luke and his feelings for her.

The Emily stuff is the worst for her overall. If she had consistently refused to accept criticisms that should have stopped decades before, Lorelai would have been much happier.

I meant more in terms of...Lorelai can't let go of a teenage 'romance' from when she was 16 but complains about her parents not being able to let go that she had a kid at 16.

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2 hours ago, Smad said:

I meant more in terms of...Lorelai can't let go of a teenage 'romance' from when she was 16 but complains about her parents not being able to let go that she had a kid at 16.

Ok, understood. Interesting comparison you just wrote. Makes me wonder how much of her Christopher weakness is really wanting to please Emily. 

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On 12/4/2016 at 10:29 PM, junienmomo said:

Wonder how ASP missed mentioning this. 

Luke was on shaky ground leaving because there was an argument.

If Christopher had followed up the 'for now' bit with 'she never even told me you were dating' it would have gone nuclear for Lorelai.

Luke overreacted by leaving, but it wouldn't have been an overreaction if he suddenly found out that not only had she done tequila night, but never found one moment in all her Christopher encounters to tell him she was seeing Luke and he was a steady boyfriend. 

But Luke did find out the night of the vow renewal that Lorelai never found one moment in those previous Chris encounters to mention she was dating Luke.

When Chris first approaches them at the party, she nervously babbles at Chris about how she and Luke are dating in a way that shows she hadn't mentioned it before. 

CHRIS: Hey, Lor.

LORELAI: Hi, Chris. You know Luke.

CHRIS: Uh, no, not really. I’m Christopher.

LUKE: Yeah. Heard a lot about you.

CHRIS: You, too. The coffee is legendary.

LORELAI: Luke and I are dating.

CHRIS: That’s great.

LORELAI: Have been for, what, four months now? Man, time, it flies when you’re having fun, huh? Big fun. Nothing sexual intended, although ¯

LUKE: Sorry about your dad.

CHRIS: Yeah. Thanks.

LORELAI: I told him about your dad, and the tequila.

CHRIS: Oh, yeah. It was rough, Lorelai helped me a lot, just being there.

LUKE: She’s a very considerate person.

Edited by takalotti
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25 minutes ago, takalotti said:

When Chris first approaches them at the party, she nervously babbles at Chris about how she and Luke are dating in a way that shows she hadn't mentioned it before. 

Sad but true.  She tells Luke about Chris saying she didn't want him to get shanghaied, and then does it herself.  Chris totally knew what was going on and dug in to make it worse.

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7 hours ago, shron17 said:

Sad but true.  She tells Luke about Chris saying she didn't want him to get shanghaied, and then does it herself.  Chris totally knew what was going on and dug in to make it worse.

Yeah, it was painful in S5 to watch her make those lying and omission mistakes, one after another. It was obvious to me that she wasn't all in.

When she shanghaied Luke in Doose's saying she was all in, I didn't believe her. It felt more like she was trying to appease him so he'd overlook the lack of commitment.

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Doing a rewatch before watching the revival again,  I just watched The Party's Over and while I watched the show steadily until season 5 and watched the revival with intense love. ..how dare Emily.   She just got separated from her husband partly due to her mother in laws view of her, how dare she decide that Dean isn't good enough for Rory.   and good for Lorelai to not mention Pennilyn, because I would have.  Emily is absolutely awful sometimes.   Lorelai is self involved but I consider that at least better than all my actions being based on how people perceive me. 

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1 hour ago, junienmomo said:

Yeah, it was painful in S5 to watch her make those lying and omission mistakes, one after another. It was obvious to me that she wasn't all in.

When she shanghaied Luke in Doose's saying she was all in, I didn't believe her. It felt more like she was trying to appease him so he'd overlook the lack of commitment.

That's a tough one. I think Lorelai is flat-out proven as frantically making big promises in Doose's that she was never going to keep and I'd argue, never intended on keeping- to cut off her parents, to cut off Christopher. And correctly, I think Luke was visibly recoiling from all of that because she was just continuing to lie and trample on his trust and feelings. AND YET, I think the threat of losing Luke also made Lorelai want to commit to him entirely. Maybe it technically occurred after the scene in Doose's when she yells at her screen!self to return the "all in" commitment.

However, I can agree that pre-the-end-of-WBB, Lorelai was somewhat toying with enjoying the drama of being in a love triangle. I mean, in the fraught moment of Christopher coming back just after Lorelai explained hastily to Luke that she lied to him, Lorelai invites both guys to check her dress and body. For anyone, who watches Crazy Ex Girlfriend, I think this song represents how I see Lorelai in that moment. However, I think Lorelai learned commitment enough that if Luke was going to bolt, she'd throw out the triangle and the Chris-obsession to be more faithful to Luke. However, it was a commitment grounded in how she didn't want to lose Luke again rather than a full-hearted knowledge that this is the guy and how to commit to him. 

Edited by Melancholy
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8 hours ago, Melancholy said:

However, I can agree that pre-the-end-of-WBB, Lorelai was somewhat toying with enjoying the drama of being in a love triangle. I mean, in the fraught moment of Christopher coming back just after Lorelai explained hastily to Luke that she lied to him, Lorelai invites both guys to check her dress and body.

Interesting.  I remember Alexis saying in an interview before the episode aired that Lorelai had to choose which guy.  Most viewers didn't see it that way, but I'm not sure Luke would have left if his girlfriend hadn't just stood between the two men looking like she didn't know what she wanted.  Even moving next to Luke and taking his arm might have been enough, but she waited until he left to decide.  

8 hours ago, Melancholy said:

However, it was a commitment grounded in how she didn't want to lose Luke again rather than a full-hearted knowledge that this is the guy and how to commit to him. 

Lorelai's love life often seemed to be about trying to keep them from leaving her rather than expressing (or even knowing) her true feelings about them.  Whenever she was dating or engaged it seemed like her fear of that was always there.  Even when she was sobbing over Luke she said "he could have been the one."  Maybe that's why despite a few nice moments things weren't that great between them for the rest of the season.

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9 hours ago, Melancholy said:

However, I can agree that pre-the-end-of-WBB, Lorelai was somewhat toying with enjoying the drama of being in a love triangle.

What an interesting observation, and boy does this ever fit Lorelai's stuck-at-16-when-it-comes-to-guys personality.

 

9 hours ago, Melancholy said:

Lorelai invites both guys to check her dress and body.

....I'm not really sure what this means or what it's referring to?

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37 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

After the exchange that takolotti quoted (complete with the "Nothing sexual intended. ALTHOUGH..."), Lorelai asked Luke and Christopher "Hey, who likes my dress?"

Wow, I had completely forgotten about that.  (Blocked it out, maybe?  Ha.)  Good lord she can be so childish and inappropriate.

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38 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

After the exchange that takolotti quoted (complete with the "Nothing sexual intended. ALTHOUGH..."), Lorelai asked Luke and Christopher "Hey, who likes my dress?"

A horrifyingly inappropriate  comment to a boyfriend and an ex at the same time. Unless, of course, you are a 16-year-old who wants to see a battle for the sweet hand of Lady Lorelai.  At 16, you are a stupid teenager. In your 30s, you are more likely to be thought of as a tease or a bitch. 

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IMO, this breakup was sort of "death by a thousand cuts" where Lorelai didn't commit a big mistake like having sex with Christopher but made a lot of little ones to the point that Luke was seeing a bitter future with Christopher and Emily's influence. Another bad moment is Lorelai landing on "The town is taking sides. I need that to stop" when arguing why Luke has to hear her out and forgive her NOW regardless of his request for space. 

Edited by Melancholy
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Was rewatching "A Messenger, Nothing More" and I really hated Dean.  First, I don't think his intention was to ever leave Lindsay.   Then he (and Lindsay's mom) both blame Rory for the affair. Uh, it does take TWO to tango!!  

Also, I felt like he wanted Lindsay to find the letter, otherwise he would have hid it alot better.

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5 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Was rewatching "A Messenger, Nothing More" and I really hated Dean.  First, I don't think his intention was to ever leave Lindsay.   Then he (and Lindsay's mom) both blame Rory for the affair. Uh, it does take TWO to tango!!  

Also, I felt like he wanted Lindsay to find the letter, otherwise he would have hid it alot better.

He was definitely hateable for his part in the affair and for treating like Lindsay. I also agree he wanted Lindsay to find the letter. I don't remember him blaming Rory for it though, but I can understand him being upset that she just left town without really telling him or talking to him about it.  Then she sends the world's worst letter.

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I LOVE Lorelai in those moments too.  I'm actually disappointed she got over it so quickly and was fine with Rory and Dean dating.  He didn't get divorced, he just fucking left his wife like a pig, didn't he?  And then they started dating.  (Sorry, that goes into S5, which I'm watching now.)

I know Rory eventually asks Dean on one of their dates if he would have left his wife anyways. But he didn't. He remained with Lindsay the entire summer and only left after Lindsay found Rory's letter. The affair cements my hate of Dean. No one forced him to marry Lindsay, he chose to when he clearly wasn't over Rory. If their were problems then he should have addressed them with his wife and/or leave. Plus Rory ends up doing basically the same thing she did to him the first time. Except this time she never really went back to Dean because she was in love with him or wanted to give it another shot. But because she had a lackluster dating year and Dean was there. She's soon being chased by Logan and chasing him. Now Logan's giving her the attention and praise she wants. Like that article she asked Dean what he though on it. Even though he thought it was great. It wasn't good enough praise for her. But Logan's praise was.  Season 5 cements my hate for Rory.  She never really comes off like she thinks she did anything wrong or feels bad about the affair. The Rory of high school would have felt bad but Rory of Yale doesn't. She just drops Dean because someone better comes along. But rather then realize she made a mistake and end it. Rory once again forces Dean to do it. 

Edited by andromeda331
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I'm watching, and the episode jump from The Party's Over and Emily Says Hello is very weird.

Dean dumps Rory unceremoniously in the first and then that's it.  Next episode, Rory is completely fine, not even a little sad or affected.  Lorelai and Rory are suddenly totally fine with Emily and Richard manipulating Rory into that party where she was paraded in front of all the rich white men they could find and causing the breakup between Rory and Dean.  What the hell?  No fallout?

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