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3 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Now I am going to sound like a broken record

You are a new record to me.  I'm going to ask for clarification on a specific point..

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TFA progressed the characters so that by the end Finn and Rey had decided to stop hiding/running and embrace their role as part of the direct fight against the First Order. The characters are in a perfectly logical place for the protagonists at the end of the first move in a trilogy.

Can you expand on this?  How, and more importantly why do you feel Rey has done what you said above?  The plot put her in direct conflict with Kylo, but why do you believe she has any reason to oppose to First Order?  To care at all?

FWIW, I agree with your assessment of TLJ in the rest of your post - no growth, ickiness, but... why did she even need to be there ?   Why, in your opinion, did she even care?  It's always been a sticking point for me.  Why would she even bother?  I only ask because you seem to have given it some thought & I have never come up with an answer but you said it was logical so I figured I'd ask.

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3 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

 

 

Now I am going to sound like a broken record, but it was TLJ. TFA progressed the characters so that by the end Finn and Rey had decided to stop hiding/running and embrace their role as part of the direct fight against the First Order. The characters are in a perfectly logical place for the protagonists at the end of the first move in a trilogy.

But then TLJ doesn't grow them from there. It regresses them, or maybe takes them sideways Johnson has Rey trying to bring Luke back so that she doesn't have to be the Force user... but also, she's trying to get him to train her to use the Force... and then there's this weird, icky Reylo element. So her character motivation, her challenges, and her goals all became really muddy.

The storyline was almost there--there should have been tension out of Rey NEEDING the reluctant, bitter Luke to train her so that she's able to fight a full-strength Kylo. But IMHO, Johnson never gave us the feeling that Rey actually needed or even cared about Luke teaching her. Heck, he doesn't even bother to tell us why she stole the Jedi manuals. Was it because she'd given up on Luke's help and planned to use them to teach herself? Was it because she felt they belonged with her as the next Jedi? Was it because she thought Leia could get something useful out of them? Was it guidance from the Force calling her to do it in a manner similar to when she went to the cave or to Anakin's lightsaber?

Finn's storyline in TLJ is even worse. Johnson didn't seem to have any idea what to do with him or who he is. Finn doesn't question Poe at all about Holdo, even though what Poe is telling him and Rose to do is a huge thing. Finn gets lectured about the evils of the First Order from Rose, as though we weren't introduced to Finn with him breaking his brainwashing after having to partake in a massacring a village! Finn's big moment is defeating Phasma and declaring himself to be Rebel Scum... but he already defeated Phasma at the end of TFA and she's been off screen the whole time and Finn has had no direct conflict with the Stormtroopers and Finn is actually partaking in a mutiny against Resistance leadership (that is going to result in the devastation of the remaining Resistance) and Phasma's defeat is going to be absolutely meaningless for the First Order vs. Resistance storyline anyway.

TFA left Finn in an interesting place as an ex-Stormtrooper who would be looking to find his place with the enemy side. We should have seen him struggle with the differing culture, political system, assumed beliefs. That, in turn, would have let him serve as a POV character to flesh out that political worldbuilding, which was the weakest part of TFA. Instead, we got Canto Bight.

 

2 hours ago, Anduin said:

So every character beat needs to be announced out loud? We can't just judge people by their actions? For that matter, are they only allowed one motivation, or can they have multiple irons in the fire?

Rey wants to learn from Luke while he does his thing with the Resistance. When neither are forthcoming, she takes the books to learn for herself, maybe she can do what's needed. As for Reylo, she may be tempted, but she still rejects it.

Finn's arc is about seeing the wider galaxy. He starts only really knowing Rey and Poe. By the end, he's seen what the Resistance is fighting for. He cares.

Poe's arc is similar. He certainly cares, but he learns to see the bigger picture.

I think Rey having a moment in TFA like Luke's "I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi like my father."  would have helped out a lot! I posted we all assumed Rey was going to be trained by Luke after TFA had come out but she never actually says that's what she wants. She has her 'Excalibur' moment but then offers the lightsaber to Luke. The Resistance was counting on Luke being their savior not her. Finn was all about Rey. He literally says that to Han. He agrees to Poe's crazy plan(which wasn't mutiny at that point) because he wanted to protect Rey. TLJ got him to the point where he cared about the Resistance as well.

Edited by VCRTracking
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How, and more importantly why do you feel Rey has done what you said above?  The plot put her in direct conflict with Kylo, but why do you believe she has any reason to oppose to First Order?  To care at all?

You know, that's a really good question. It's been a while since I saw TFA, so I could be remembering wrong. My memory is that it's established in the scenes at Maz Kanata. Maz helps Rey free herself from the obligation of waiting for parents' return to Jakku, and Rey cares because the First Order is evil. This contrasts with Finn, who also cares but believes they have no chance at a direct fight with the First Order. 

But I think you're right that this is all murkier than it should have been because we don't really know what the contrast is between life under the New Republic and life under the First Order. That's my one significant criticism of TFA... it cut the subplot that would have established this but then didn't work the information back into the story.

Finn was all about Rey. He literally says that to Han. 

Finn says that... and then prioritizes the plan of using Phasma to lower the shields for the Resistance over finding Rey. We are shown that he clearly cares about the greater fight as well as helping Rey.

He agrees to Poe's crazy plan(which wasn't mutiny at that point) because he wanted to protect Rey.

Poe's crazy plan wasn't mutiny, but it was concealing information from a superior officer and taking a soldier from her post without any authorization or notice to her commanding officer, which left key resources undefended (remember, Rose has said she'd stopped multiple people from stealing escape pods before she stopped Finn). 

IMHO, Finn as a former career soldier, should have had a lot more questions and concerns about whether it was really necessary to do everything so secretly. (and I don't buy that Rose would have gone along with it given the little we saw of her characterization and that Poe's previous act of disobedience resulted in Paije's death)

But also, I would take a step back earlier and say the whole thing with him trying to go on the escape pod to protect Rey is already a sign of Finn's character arc going off the rails. Johnson writes him like he was just some a random injured person that the Resistance picked up.

But Finn is the only one on board that ship with first-hand experience of First Order military capabilities... experience that had directly led to the successful mission against Starkiller Base (and IIRC, no one knew that Finn was only a janitor on the base. Finn revealed that to Han, but Han is dead.). Finn should have been guarded and then pumped for military information as soon as he woke up and was healthy enough. If the First Order attack disrupted that (which IIRC, it would have), Holdo and D'arcy should have been trying to find Finn and finish that and with new urgency. Finn should never have been just wandering around the ship.

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3 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

 

 

You know, that's a really good question. It's been a while since I saw TFA, so I could be remembering wrong. My memory is that it's established in the scenes at Maz Kanata. Maz helps Rey free herself from the obligation of waiting for parents' return to Jakku, and Rey cares because the First Order is evil. This contrasts with Finn, who also cares but believes they have no chance at a direct fight with the First Order. 

But I think you're right that this is all murkier than it should have been because we don't really know what the contrast is between life under the New Republic and life under the First Order. That's my one significant criticism of TFA... it cut the subplot that would have established this but then didn't work the information back into the story.

 

Finn says that... and then prioritizes the plan of using Phasma to lower the shields for the Resistance over finding Rey. We are shown that he clearly cares about the greater fight as well as helping Rey.

 

Poe's crazy plan wasn't mutiny, but it was concealing information from a superior officer and taking a soldier from her post without any authorization or notice to her commanding officer, which left key resources undefended (remember, Rose has said she'd stopped multiple people from stealing escape pods before she stopped Finn). 

IMHO, Finn as a former career soldier, should have had a lot more questions and concerns about whether it was really necessary to do everything so secretly. (and I don't buy that Rose would have gone along with it given the little we saw of her characterization and that Poe's previous act of disobedience resulted in Paije's death)

But also, I would take a step back earlier and say the whole thing with him trying to go on the escape pod to protect Rey is already a sign of Finn's character arc going off the rails. Johnson writes him like he was just some a random injured person that the Resistance picked up.

But Finn is the only one on board that ship with first-hand experience of First Order military capabilities... experience that had directly led to the successful mission against Starkiller Base (and IIRC, no one knew that Finn was only a janitor on the base. Finn revealed that to Han, but Han is dead.). Finn should have been guarded and then pumped for military information as soon as he woke up and was healthy enough. If the First Order attack disrupted that (which IIRC, it would have), Holdo and D'arcy should have been trying to find Finn and finish that and with new urgency. Finn should never have been just wandering around the ship.

When Finn woke up Leia was still in charge. I don't she could go from being thankful that he defected to putting him under guard and interrogated, right after he just recovered from severe injuries sustained helping them! 

Finn would have questions about Poe's plan? His plan to free Poe and escape the First Order in TFA was just as insanely risky and involved secrecy! Of course he was going to take the same risk to protect Rey.

Oh and if Han and Chewie weren't there with him on Starkiller Base he would have gone straight to finding Rey first.

Edited by VCRTracking

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 I don't she could go from being thankful that he defected to putting him under guard and interrogated,

Oh, I didn't mean guarded and interrogated! I meant guarded as in watched over and pumped for military information as in interviewed. 

The movie has Finn wake up and wander around in some kind of bag thing leaking fluids. I think, there would have been someone with him 24/7 to take care of him when he woke up and let Leia know that he was awake. He would have been briefed, interviewed, and probably given a formal rank and role in the Resistance. He was a valuable military asset, and the movie treats him like he's just some schmoe who got caught up in the fighting and rescued. 

(also sorry my posts have been so long. I'm a fast typer, so I don't always realize how much I've written!)

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On ‎2‎/‎17‎/‎2020 at 12:00 AM, VCRTracking said:

We all thought when TFA ended that Luke was going to train Rey in the next movie but she never says "I want to be a Jedi". We only assumed that was where the story was going to go because of the previous movies. That Luke would train her the way Yoda did on Dagobah, But the entire Resistance didn't see her off just so she could train. She was sent to bring Luke back. The Resistance hopes were entirely on  finding Luke so he could help fight against the First Order.

Rey's big moment was when Luke/Anakin's lightsaber flies into her hand instead of Kylo's. It's her "pulling Excalibur out of the stone" and the audience cheers. But then the movie ends with her holding Excalibur out to Luke like "Here, this belongs to you."  Mixed message there.

It is a mixed message, but one entirely consistent with her character - she doesn't want to be the hero, she doesn't think she's supposed to be the hero. She thinks Luke is the one, because he's a legend and he's missing and everyone is looking for him. But when he rejects that burden so casually, she's knocked off balance, and Kylo Ren is there to manipulate her and convince her that he's the hero she's been looking for.

She doesn't realise that it's her until the end of the movie.

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The films repeatedly show that killing someone because they're "dangerous" is wrong and doing so is a sign of how far the Jedi have lost their way. Until RotJ when Luke tosses aside his saber and returns the Jedi to their right path. It's the culmination of the entire Jedi arc the plays out over 6 films and TLJ undoes it in a flashback to make Kylo Ren a love interest for Rey.

Yes.  Luke ultimately defeats Darth Vader and the Emperor by going against everything he has been taught by Obi-Wan and Yoda.  He refuses to follow his father's path by turning to the dark side and he refuses to follow what he learned from Obi-Wan and Yoda and kill his father.  Luke took the best lessons he learned from the Jedi but choose his own path and it worked, culminating with Vader killing the Emperor.  That's why it was so disappointing to see him become some rigid and dogmatic, obsessed with the "sacred Jedi scrolls."

I liked Rey but the original trilogy already gave us a "last of the Jedi" storyline.  We didn't need to see Rey repeat Luke's storyline.  If Disney wanted Rey to be given Luke's classic trilogy storyline, then they should have just done a remake of the original trilogy.

One of the worst things Rian Johnson did with The Last Jedi is that he made the three main heroes all much less interesting characters.  I really didn't leave TLJ with a great desire to see more of them.  Finn was probably the one who had the most damage done to him.  JJ tried his best to repair this but Finn is often relegated to yelling out "REEEEEEYYYYYYY!!!!" constantly in the film and chasing after her.  Finn is at his most interesting in The Rise of Skywalker when he is dealing with a fellow First Order deserter in Jannah.

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So. Project Luminous. It's a multimedia thing, like Shadows of the Empire and the Clone Wars. Like them, it's a prequel. Set around 200 years before the movies. I was hoping to see the future of the galaxy, but no such luck. Maybe that's reserved for the next movies.

I have quibbles. See the cover of the IDW comic? Yeah. A little too elaborate for straps. Maybe powerpacks. Looks a little 40K. I suppose all these space operas influence each other a bit.

But I will finish on a high note. A Wookiee with a lightsabre!

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I suspect there's a High Republic cartoon on the way. As far as I know, nothing has even been hinted at. However, there will be multiple waves of this project, and Dave Filoni has nothing upcoming on his IMDB.

If I'm right, you heard it here first. If not, it's not the first speculation I've got wrong. I'm not fussed. 🙂

In conclusion, lightsabre Wookiee!

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Not a surprise about Project Luminous.  I had heard this for a while but thought it would be set 400 years before TPM.  I think they should have gone a little further than that.  

LFL in the past has done a great job with the multimedia campaigns.  Shadows of the Empire was the first one although I have a great love for the original Clone Wars campaign they did between AOTC and ROTS.  

It's something to keep an eye on.  Some of that art could be better though.  Plus, Disney and Kathleen Kennedy are running this campaign so that doesn't bode well.

I would have liked to have seen Luke's Jedi Order in the sequel trilogy.  I consider that the biggest disappointment of the new trilogy.

Edited by benteen
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In news just to hand, we have a name for my new favourite character: Burryaga Agaburry. This makes him, to my memory, the first Wookiee with a last name. Previously, they have sometimes used patronyms. Chewbacca, son of Attichitcuk. But an actual last name? The first.

OTOH, he's not the first Wookiee Jedi we've met. There's been Lowbacca, Tyvokka, and Gunji at least. However, Lucas went off the idea of Wookiee Jedi at one point, which is why Hanharr couldn't become a dark Jedi. But Lucas is no longer at the helm, it's fair game again.

Yes, I'm thinking about changing my avatar at some point. Burryaga Agaburry.

Edited by Anduin
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On 2/24/2020 at 11:55 PM, Anduin said:

So. Project Luminous. It's a multimedia thing, like Shadows of the Empire and the Clone Wars. Like them, it's a prequel. Set around 200 years before the movies. I was hoping to see the future of the galaxy, but no such luck. Maybe that's reserved for the next movies.

I have quibbles. See the cover of the IDW comic? Yeah. A little too elaborate for straps. Maybe powerpacks. Looks a little 40K. I suppose all these space operas influence each other a bit.

But I will finish on a high note. A Wookiee with a lightsabre!

Only 200 years prior...hmmmm. Makes me wonder who we’re going to see that we already know about. Yoda at 700 years old(he was 900ish right when he died?)? When did everything with Tarre Vizsla happen? No Sith right? They hadn’t been seen in a 1000 years in Phantom Menace right? I’m really interested-this could be a lot of fun.

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2 hours ago, SnoGirl said:

Only 200 years prior...hmmmm. Makes me wonder who we’re going to see that we already know about. Yoda at 700 years old(he was 900ish right when he died?)? When did everything with Tarre Vizsla happen? No Sith right? They hadn’t been seen in a 1000 years in Phantom Menace right? I’m really interested-this could be a lot of fun.

Yoda, maybe Yaddle. Wookiee lifespan is around 400 years, we might get a small appearance by Chewie. He might even meet Burryaga Agaburry! Hutts can live for centuries too, so possibly Jabba. I wonder if there will be a gratuitious mention of the name Skywalker.

On a side note, I really do wonder about the Jedi Council we met in the PT. The Chosen One appears, product of an unusual birth. No one bothers to follow up on his lineage? I know in Legends, only one person chased up who ordered the clones. But this is even more serious!

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Nah, Chewie hasn't been born yet though if the series goes on, maybe we'll get Baby Chewie. 😉  Maz Kanata is the only character I can think of that might show up.  If this series deals with settling the Outer Rim, Jabba would be a very likely character to show up as well.

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I called it! In the depths of IO9, screen name Red-Wolf, but I called it. Spoilers for Darth Vader issue 2.

Spoiler

It's Sabé! Sure it was the most likely suspect, but I don't care.

I like being right. 🙂

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At the risk of poking a wound not quite closed, Pete the Retailer said something interesting. A lot of fans grew up playing with the toys, and to an extent, that's what the new movies are too. People playing with their Star Wars toys on the big screen.

When I was a kid, I had other toys. Yeah, I always loved SW. But rarely put much thought into what happened before, or after, or what-have you. I accepted what I was given, even if I didn't like it.

But for those who aren't into the Disney movies, is it a case of 'these aren't the stories I told myself when I was younger'? Or do you just dislike them for whatever other reasons.

I suppose this is relevant. I was more a lego kid, really. And I hated the trailer for the lego movie, so I didn't go see it. So maybe that's one vote towards 'these aren't the stories'.

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This is interesting. A new SW show from the creator of Russian Doll, Leslye Headland. I'm always interested in more SW stuff, at least until I hear more. But I suspect that the usual suspects have already posted hour-long rant videos on YT. No SW content can be created without their approval, don't you realise. And female-centric? Oh my god, that's just completely offensive to every man ever.

In conclusion, I'm interested and want to know more. For that matter, I want to watch the whole thing right now. Even if it leaves me cold, it's better than nothing.

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24 minutes ago, Anduin said:

This is interesting. A new SW show from the creator of Russian Doll, Leslye Headland. I'm always interested in more SW stuff, at least until I hear more. But I suspect that the usual suspects have already posted hour-long rant videos on YT. No SW content can be created without their approval, don't you realise. And female-centric? Oh my god, that's just completely offensive to every man ever.

In conclusion, I'm interested and want to know more. For that matter, I want to watch the whole thing right now. Even if it leaves me cold, it's better than nothing.

I'm interested at least for now. I'd love to see the conclusion to the Clone Wars. Giving Mandalorian a chance if Disney+ but since I was a fan of Boba Fett I'm not entirely sure I'll end up liking it.

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On 4/23/2020 at 9:50 AM, Anduin said:

This is interesting. A new SW show from the creator of Russian Doll, Leslye Headland. I'm always interested in more SW stuff, at least until I hear more. But I suspect that the usual suspects have already posted hour-long rant videos on YT. No SW content can be created without their approval, don't you realise. And female-centric? Oh my god, that's just completely offensive to every man ever.

I know that these guys are either trolls trying to profit off outrage or just plain losers, but I've always been baffled at the pushback against female leads in Star Wars given the overwhelming presence of male protagonists. I mean...

Star Wars prequel trilogy - male protagonist (Anakin)

Star Wars original trilogy - male protagonist (Luke)

Star Wars Rebels - male protagonist (Ezra)

Star Wars Solo - male protagonist (Han Solo)

Star Wars The Mandalorian - male protagonist (Mandalorian)

Star Wars Obi Wan series - male protagonist (Obi Wan)

Star Wars Cassian Andor series - male protagonist (Cassian)

 

Star Wars sequel trilogy - female protagonist (Rey)

Star Wars Rogue One - female protagonist (Jyn)

Star Wars Clone Wars - female protagonist (Ahsoka) but I'm being VERY generous with this one, as it's just as much about Anakin, Obi Wan and a larger ensemble.

 

That's seven movies and four tv series that are male-led and four movies and one debatable tv show that's female led. Talk about Dudley Dursley screaming over having thirty-six presents instead of thirty-seven!

(Plus, nearly ALL Star Wars heroines are white brunettes, so if Headland's show goes ahead, I hope she'll do something different on that front).

Edited by Ravenya003
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56 minutes ago, Ravenya003 said:

I know that these guys are either trolls trying to profit off outrage or just plain losers, but I've always been baffled at the pushback against female leads in Star Wars given the overwhelming presence of male protagonists. I mean...

Star Wars prequel trilogy - male protagonist (Anakin)

Star Wars original trilogy - male protagonist (Luke)

Star Wars Rebels - male protagonist (Ezra)

Star Wars Solo - male protagonist (Han Solo)

Star Wars The Mandalorian - male protagonist (Mandalorian)

Star Wars Obi Wan series - male protagonist (Obi Wan)

Star Wars Cassian Andor series - male protagonist (Cassian)

 

Star Wars sequel trilogy - female protagonist (Rey)

Star Wars Rogue One - female protagonist (Jyn)

Star Wars Clone Wars - female protagonist (Ahsoka) but I'm being VERY generous with this one, as it's just as much about Anakin, Obi Wan and a larger ensemble.

 

That's seven movies and four tv series that are male-led and four movies and one debatable tv show that's female led. Talk about Dudley Dursley screaming over having thirty-six presents instead of thirty-seven!

(Plus, nearly ALL Star Wars heroines are white brunettes, so if Headland's show goes ahead, I hope she'll do something different on that front).

I pretty much agree with you. But some people think it's a zero-sum game. In order to have women up the front, men have to be relegated to the background. And their egos seem to be too fragile to handle that.

For that matter, Rian Johnson. He was all set to produce a new trilogy, only the usual idiots shouted so loud that it seems to have disappeared. I suspect the same thing may happen here. Internet outrage has more power than it deserves.

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I think this is a crappy way to announce a show, though.

No specifics were currently announced for the series, but Variety notes that it will primarily revolve around a cast of female characters, and will be set in “a different part of the Star Wars timeline than other projects.”



Star Wars fans have demonstrated that they will embrace female characters and female leads, but the Internet has made everything so toxic. Introducing a show with nothing more than "about female characters" is setting it up for the target of trolling. I don't think that SHOULD be the case, but it so obviously is. Why not wait until SOMETHING else can be said about it?

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Rise of Skywalker comes to Disney+ on May 4.

Of course.

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6 minutes ago, starri said:

Rise of Skywalker comes to Disney+ on May 4.

Of course.

I hate that day. It's just a bad pun that doesn't even work if you're a DMY person like me.

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On 4/27/2020 at 5:49 PM, Anduin said:

I hate that day. It's just a bad pun that doesn't even work if you're a DMY person like me.

Fourth of May be with you. 

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4 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

not sure which movie is the new star wars movie

Bloody hell. After what he did to Thor, I'm not getting my hopes up for this to be good. Might be the first one I don't see.

I couldn't even make through the Ragnarok trailer. It was wrong on every single level.

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45 minutes ago, Anduin said:

Bloody hell. After what he did to Thor, I'm not getting my hopes up for this to be good. Might be the first one I don't see.

I couldn't even make through the Ragnarok trailer. It was wrong on every single level.

Wow, forty-five minutes. I just lost my bet for when the complaints would start due to Waititi being chosen as director. 🙂

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5 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Wow, forty-five minutes. I just lost my bet for when the complaints would start due to Waititi being chosen as director. 🙂

How long did you think?

If anyone cares, my vision for a Ragnarok movie was Vikings crossed with the second half of Rogue One, not the buddy action comedy it apparently was.

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While I loved Thor: Ragnarok (easily the best of the Thor movies), and really liked his episode of The Mandalorian, that's all I really know of Taika Waititi, so I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this yet. Definitely a different choice for a Star Wars movie. Then again, so was Lord and Miller and we know how that turned out.

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1 hour ago, WritinMan said:

While I loved Thor: Ragnarok (easily the best of the Thor movies), and really liked his episode of The Mandalorian, that's all I really know of Taika Waititi, so I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this yet. Definitely a different choice for a Star Wars movie. Then again, so was Lord and Miller and we know how that turned out.

Hmm I have a feeling Disney is pulling in Marvel talent for the Star Wars side. One works like a well oiled machine the other is a Yugo.

I'm not talking quality which is always subjective but, there's always some BTS drama on every Star Wars movie. Marvel has them too (Edgar Wright and Joss Wheden) but, that's more the exception than the rule.

While pulling in (or rewarding) Talent from Marvel is a good move I think they really need to replace Kennedy. You need a strong leader with a good vision to helm the ship, otherwise more delays, script rewrites, fired directors,  massive reshoots, etc etc etc).

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It seems to me that Kennedy has a different style to Feige. She's more used to working with directors to create their visions, rather than being the one with the vision who finds people to execute it.

At the same time, she mostly seems to go for people who are all exciting and in the moment, instead of who can create an interesting SW story. That's backfired a few times. Trevorrow, the GOT guys, etc. But she's sticking to it. If I were to give her advice, I'd suggest unexpected picks like Kasdan and Kershner were.

Oh, and stop borrowing so heavily from the GOT and MCU talent pools. Let the three universes stand apart from each other.

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5 hours ago, Anduin said:

It seems to me that Kennedy has a different style to Feige. She's more used to working with directors to create their visions, rather than being the one with the vision who finds people to execute it.

I don't think that Lord and Miller would agree on that.

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40 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

I don't think that Lord and Miller would agree on that.

Maybe that was when she started doing things the other way. Anyway, they're more people whose work I dislike. They should never have been brought on to start with.

Edited by Anduin

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From everything I've read it wasn't Lord and Miller's ideas that were the problem(a lot of them ended up in the finished movie) it was their working method. Lots of improv and ad libbing, numerous takes to get a better joke. Also Lawrence Kasdan, the writer was unhappy with them going offscript. 

Edited by VCRTracking

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On 4/25/2020 at 11:11 AM, Ravenya003 said:

I know that these guys are either trolls trying to profit off outrage or just plain losers, but I've always been baffled at the pushback against female leads in Star Wars given the overwhelming presence of male protagonists. I mean...

Star Wars prequel trilogy - male protagonist (Anakin)

Star Wars original trilogy - male protagonist (Luke)

Star Wars Rebels - male protagonist (Ezra)

Star Wars Solo - male protagonist (Han Solo)

Star Wars The Mandalorian - male protagonist (Mandalorian)

Star Wars Obi Wan series - male protagonist (Obi Wan)

Star Wars Cassian Andor series - male protagonist (Cassian)

 

Star Wars sequel trilogy - female protagonist (Rey)

Star Wars Rogue One - female protagonist (Jyn)

Star Wars Clone Wars - female protagonist (Ahsoka) but I'm being VERY generous with this one, as it's just as much about Anakin, Obi Wan and a larger ensemble.

 

I totally forgot about: Star Wars Resistance - male protagonist (Kazuda)

So that's an 8:3 male-to-female ratio of protagonists in the Star Wars Universe. (I think after the Clone Wars finale it's safe to say that it WAS in fact Ahsoka's story).

I'm not going to count the Ewok films, and I've never played any of the games, though I understand the latest one is about a young male Padawan that escapes Order 66.

So yeah, to reiterate a point that no one was really arguing in the first place: lots of dudes in Star Wars. 

What would be really great is an important and narratively-central female friendship, as we've definitely never had one of those on-screen. Rey and Rose never interacted, Padme's handmaidens were never really characters, Jyn was the Smurfette, and Leia had... Amilyn, I suppose? The most sustained relationship between two women in Star Wars is probably Hera and Sabine in "Rebels", and that was far from the focus of the series.

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22 minutes ago, Ravenya003 said:

I totally forgot about: Star Wars Resistance - male protagonist (Kazuda)

So that's an 8:3 male-to-female ratio of protagonists in the Star Wars Universe. (I think after the Clone Wars finale it's safe to say that it WAS in fact Ahsoka's story).

I'm not going to count the Ewok films, and I've never played any of the games, though I understand the latest one is about a young male Padawan that escapes Order 66.

So yeah, to reiterate a point that no one was really arguing in the first place: lots of dudes in Star Wars. 

What would be really great is an important and narratively-central female friendship, as we've definitely never had one of those on-screen. Rey and Rose never interacted, Padme's handmaidens were never really characters, Jyn was the Smurfette, and Leia had... Amilyn, I suppose? The most sustained relationship between two women in Star Wars is probably Hera and Sabine in "Rebels", and that was far from the focus of the series.

That would be really nice. Even in the Clone Wars Padme never really seem to have any female friendships. Probably Sabine but she was on a different planet and not really a focus. Did she have any friends back home on Naboo that she ever wanted to visited? Who knows she never did, even when she visited Naboo a few times.  Did Leia have any? I guess Amilyn. Its funny you mention it I was thinking about when I watched a few Rebel episodes that DVR record Hera and Sabine seem like the only ones. Is that really the only time there were two women working in the same group? Leia of course was Han and Luke and we never really saw her with any female friends, Rey and Rose are in the same Rebel Alliance but they don't really interact. 

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4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Is that really the only time there were two women working in the same group? Leia of course was Han and Luke and we never really saw her with any female friends, Rey and Rose are in the same Rebel Alliance but they don't really interact. 

I'm wracking my brains here, and I honestly can't come up with anything substantial. Sabine had a friendship with Ketsu in "Rebels", though that was only showcased across a couple of episodes, and Ahsoka and Barriss Offee had a fascinating dynamic, though that wasn't exactly a "friendship" (and there's been no closure on it). 

Maybe Ventress and the Nightsisters? Or E.K. Johnston's YA book about Padme, which apparently focuses on her relationship with her handmaidens?

But in the movies themselves, nada. 

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9 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

What would be really great is an important and narratively-central female friendship, as we've definitely never had one of those on-screen. Rey and Rose never interacted, Padme's handmaidens were never really characters, Jyn was the Smurfette, and Leia had... Amilyn, I suppose? The most sustained relationship between two women in Star Wars is probably Hera and Sabine in "Rebels", and that was far from the focus of the series.

Smurfette? Really?

Since Rogue One is Jyn's story, where she's the initially reluctant heroine who ends up giving her life to save the struggling rebellion, I'd say she's a bit more than that. I guess you could argue that the amount of fanfic about what might have happened if she and Cassian had survived the battle on Scarif (including the universe where they're Rey's parents) proves your point, but that doesn't change the fact that she was the lead.

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Smurfette? Really?

I meant Smurfette in the sense that she was the only female character of note in the whole movie (and therefore couldn't have any sort of friendship with another woman), which is the fault of the writers, not the character. You can be the lead (which she clearly was) AND a Smurfette; the two terms aren't mutually exclusive. 

Edited by Ravenya003 · Reason: clarity
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12 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Smurfette? Really?

Team of people and there’s only one girl.

 

32 minutes ago, Ravenya003 said:

You can be the lead (which she clearly was) AND a Smurfette

Starring Smurfette.

Edited by ursula
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I'm a huge fan of the original trilogy, but I never got into the novels, tv spin-offs, video games. I have watched the sequel and prequel trilogy only once. For people who know far more about the franchise than I do, could someone please tell me what the symbols on the face mask from Disney are? I recognize the rebellion and the empire, but what are the others?

Thanks to anyone who can help. 

Star Wars mask.png

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18 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I'm a huge fan of the original trilogy, but I never got into the novels, tv spin-offs, video games. I have watched the sequel and prequel trilogy only once. For people who know far more about the franchise than I do, could someone please tell me what the symbols on the face mask from Disney are? I recognize the rebellion and the empire, but what are the others?

Thanks to anyone who can help.

The skull is Mandalorian. The other looks familiar, but I can't place it.

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13 hours ago, Anduin said:

The skull is Mandalorian. The other looks familiar, but I can't place it.

Thank you so much for your help. I figured out a way to search for the symbols and got my answer. Here it is in case you were curious.

5e1fd58880e4aeb9363c7b296dabb274.jpg

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5 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Thank you so much for your help. I figured out a way to search for the symbols and got my answer. Here it is in case you were curious.

 

Bloody hell. The fern kind of symbol is Mandalorian? Since when? Why did I never get the memo? I bet it's something to do with Rebels. And since they still have the mythosaur, why do they now have two symbols?

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22 hours ago, Anduin said:

Bloody hell. The fern kind of symbol is Mandalorian? Since when? Why did I never get the memo? I bet it's something to do with Rebels. And since they still have the mythosaur, why do they now have two symbols?

It’s supposed to be the Clan Fett crest. It was on Boba’s armor in Empire. 5E8EC8D9-B039-47A0-AE0E-A21F92D76431.jpeg.3bef20c3640f01dc27c0b06f7d2283ff.jpeg

Edited by Dani
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19 minutes ago, Dani said:

It’s supposed to be the Clan Fett crest. It was on Boba’s armor in Empire.

I see it now. Thanks!

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