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ElectricBoogaloo

S01.E13: Have You Brought Me Little Cakes?

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I have so many questions and nit picks now:

Who really wrote all the Fillory and Further books? Plover was already trapped (and being tortured) in Fillory when young Jane met the Witch and the Fool. Are the books enchanted?

 

 This scene, with the young Jane, occurred in "1942" England, so it was when the books were written and before Martin had obtained enough power/magic to trap Plover.  After Q and Julie rescue Jane, they walk on and meet the Watcherwoman, Jane again, but now older because she's a time traveler.  That's the Jane that sends Q and Julie forward in time to the Fillory of 2016, where Q's friends are.  Martin trapped Plover in or about 1952 (or was it 57?) when Plover "disappeared" and his sister petitioned for him to be declared dead and the a rumor was started that he died of a stroke.

 

My question is how did Martin get back to Fillory.  Didn't the last book, the 6th book written by Jane, say that Martin looked everywhere for the button (which was still in the young boy's pocket, buried in the basement)?  So is the plot that when Martin followed Q and Julie to Fillory, unbeknownst to Jane, he learned that there can be other magic that will get him to Fillory so he endeavored to figure out how?  But didn't Martin looking for the button (book 6) occur after he met Q and Julia (book 6-x)?  Why would he look for the button if he already knew there was other ways to get back to Fillory?  And since he never did find the button, how did he otherwise learn how to get back to Fillory? 

 

Jane's turning Julia into a hedge witch sure changed things up a ton.  Yes, they didn't all die this time, so sortof good (depends on if anyone else survived), but with the Beast still alive, he could still kill Q.  And with Julia a hedge, she didn't care a whit about the rest of the group, so its not surprising that she didn't do anything until it was just Q left, the only one she did care about.  Instead, she's seeking vengeance for her friends that were killed, as well as possibly trying to save Kady, as she may have assumed Renard would still try to find her.  And frankly, once Julia isn't holding the knife on the Beast, why won't he just kill her?  Did the god semen she has inside her now make her 'stronger' and thus more difficult for the Beast to kill?  If that's the case, does that mean Alice is still alive too?  Or is it merely that Julia offered the Beast some "fun" in taking out a god?

 

So if Julia had gone to Brakebills, would the Free Traders have found someone else to help them, or are we to assume that but for Julia, FTB would all still be alive?  I didn't catch why Julia is a special snowflake that Renard focused on to trick her and use her to bring him back.  Is it because she's very inherently powerful and that power was needed by Renard?  Why did he keep her alive and why rape her?  Is she pregnant? 

 

And, with Jane sortof still alive in time, will she somehow find a way to survive the Beast killing her?  The blood splatter sortof disputes that, so it will be interesting to see how the writers get around that, if that's the plan.  Or will Q only be able to speak with Jane in past Fillory?  I guess now we know how Jane knew to target Julia and Q, she had seen them as a girl.  Wonderful time circle there, also shown by Q knowing the answer to the riddle, he had read it in the book, but the book reports him knowing it because he read it in a book that actually hadn't been written yet.  

 

And Q is a bit of a fool.  If he wasn't so hesitant, he would have been able to stop Ember from erasing Julia's memory block, and they might have ended up killing the Beast via Alice.

Edited by Hanahope
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So in the other attempts, Julia got into the school and was friends with everyone and apparently they all died.  This time she wasn't part of the group because she didn't get in and it may be that some of them have died this attempt but they didn't all die. So when you really think about it, in a way, Julia not getting into the school (and having her own adventure) and Quentin using his knowledge of the fact that before everything happened a certain way and choosing to hand the knife off to Alice ... saved some of them?

Twisted and weird.

 

That's what I'm getting out of this. I do like how the show kind of casually throws this information out in snatches of conversation but this is apparently the first time that ANY of them have survived and it seems to hinge on Jane's altering the timeline to exclude Julia from the gang this time around. So yeah Martin/The Beast is still alive in this timeline but so are THEY...which is new.

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The show does make me wonder what happened in some of the other time lines, since Q had apparently gotten to Ember before (Ember knew Julia was usually killed before).  Did Q know about the time loop in any prior tries?  Is this the first time he had Alice take the essence?  If Q took the essence before and died, that brings me back to why doesn't the Beast just kill Julia when she's not holding the knife to his neck?

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This scene, with the young Jane, occurred in "1942" England, so it was when the books were written and before Martin had obtained enough power/magic to trap Plover.  After Q and Julie rescue Jane, they walk on and meet the Watcherwoman, Jane again, but now older because she's a time traveler.  That's the Jane that sends Q and Julie forward in time to the Fillory of 2016, where Q's friends are.  Martin trapped Plover in or about 1952 (or was it 57?) when Plover "disappeared" and his sister petitioned for him to be declared dead and the a rumor was started that he died of a stroke.

 

My question is how did Martin get back to Fillory.

I think the implication in this episode was Martin got back to Fillory by following Julia and Q into the phone booth in 1942. So either in the other timelines J&Q still did that (hence always being the witch and the fool all along) and just other things happened differently later in terms of them both being dead; or this one changed the way in which Martin got back in, in order to become the beast in the first place.

It's a little ambiguous how they all got there in the previous attempts. We know before Julia was with them at Brakebills and with them in Fillory, but we don't know if all the Brakebills people went to Fillory together simultaneously or if it were still Julia and Quentin going separately together. So if the phone booth thing always happened, then J&Q caused the beast in the first place. (Hilarious to me they seem to have plenty of guilt over other things in this timeline but didn't quite get smacked in the face by that yet.) But if that moment always happens then the lead up is different since presumably in the other attempts Julia would not have had the timey wimey knowledge from her new friends.

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Yup, solved the issue.  

 

I do see what you mean by this though.

I thought overall it was a really good season finale, and I'm so glad I gave this show a chance. I needed a new genre/sci-fi show to pick up and this steadily improved throughout the season. My heart broke for Julia and I was incredibly surprised to see Marina show up.


I'm with you, grandmocha, I have missed having a scifi/fantasy show in my life (GoT being something of a grim slog at times) and this show has made me laugh out loud on more than one occasion.  Hell, the finale had me rolling at least twice, including that moment when Penny showed some enthusiasm "Oh cool!" and grabbed the knife.  Arjun Gupta had a classic, physical-comedy reaction and I cracked up at his "Aaaiiiiiiieeee!  I hate this place!"  

I'm also with you on Julia.  Good god, not only was she horribly assaulted, she watched her friends being slaughtered.

Triskan, I'm sorry, but I don't know who that actor is and I didn't recognize her from Orphan Black :-/  

 
Why didn't Julia and Quentin tell Jane/Eliza the beast had killed her?


It's possible that Quentin didn't actually know.  We saw Dean Fogg tell Quentin she died, but not how.  It seems likely that he would have (Quentin did tell her she died doing something brave, so he seemed to know more than what we saw) but I can understand why he wouldn't tell her.  It seems like events within each individual loop cannot be altered and sharing information is perilous because it could fuck up the progress of a loop.  That's just a guess though, because it's the only way that I can think to explain why Jane and Fogg wouldn't just tell the Brakebills gang everything and set about trying to train them specifically for their encounters.  But that's also based on the things like Fogg not telling Quentin Martin was The Beast.  

Why didn't the Watcherwoman Jane tell Julia and Quentin the beast was Martin?

No clue, see above, maybe there have been times she's tried that and it went even more disastrously?  I think some things are safe guesses, like Jane having tried things like telling her younger self to find and stop Martin before he could become The Beast.   It seems like there have to have been things that were tried and didn't work, because....40 times. 


Marina went to see Julia in rehab and did actually express something resembling regret and something approaching (for a psycho) fondness for Julia and Julia knew that she had the knowledge from Brakebills, because Marina stole it.  She also knew that Marina could alter memories because Marina altered James memory.  


What did they do with all the blood, body parts and bodies?

No real clue.  I don't think some of this stuff doesn't really require an explanation within the story because there are enough details present to help fill in blanks.   Maybe they shot them off into another dimension?  Maybe they bagged them up and teleported them to the antarctic?  I mean, Marina was able to kill someone remotely, with an enchanted file cabinet and paper.  I'm guessing being a fixer isn't outside her skill range. 

Does Marina know or feel Julia is a special snowflake?


Seemingly so, but it's also possible that Marina actually feels some guilt for having killed Kady's mother and used Julia.  When Julia met Marina, she was an expelled Brakebills student who had magic forcibly removed.  She's apparently been given back a lot of information and power, partially because she got to know Julia.  Her bitterness and anger might have started to dissipate and also, it's possible that she does feel some form of gratitude to Julia, because she really is the reason that Marina got that knowledge back.  Remember Richard said that magic was a drug, because they were treating it like a drug.  Marina got a giant, lifetime fix, so maybe that just improved her mindset overall?  Plus, Marina actually looked shaken as hell by that scene.  


Marina could have simply erased Julia's memory of everything (like Brakebills erasing any memory of being there once you get kicked out). Why did she create a new "good" memory and have the Goddess tell Julia her destiny and mission was to use magic for good?


Well presumably the easiest way to get a memory to take is to hang it on framework that already exists in a person's mind.  Eliza referred to Marina's work as a "crude patch"  (so whereas Marina is able to rewrite a person's memory, she's not an expert) and the less....space (for lack of a better word) in a someone's memory that has to be covered up/rewritten the better (guessing here, based on the 'crude patch....it's like patching a tire for a bicycle, just cover the wound) ....she couldn't just leave a blank space, and presumably Marina isn't able to obliterate huge chunks of Julia's life, just an element in them.  Julia had been working with the Free Traders for a long time period. 

As for why the whole "use magic for good", you got me.  Maybe it was like administering an opiate as a pain killer, you know?  Inducing euphoria to alleviate symptoms. 
Edited by stillshimpy
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I think the implication in this episode was Martin got back to Fillory by following Julia and Q into the phone booth in 1942.

 

He was following Jane in all time lines, it was Quentin and Julia's first time in that timeline, but the implication was that that was how Martin got back to Fillory.   Quentin and Julia were following Jane, but Martin was following Jane, not Quentin and Julia. 

 

Although, why the door stayed open that time and allowed Martin in, when it had previously been shutting him out is the one I couldn't quite get.  So he was following Jane, but I don't know if in other timelines the phone booth portal shut behind her, trying to keep Martin out or not.  

Edited by stillshimpy
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Guys, can anyone help me... I cant remember where I've seen the actress who plays Elliot's bride before (her character's name is Fen apparently)... I think it's on Orphan Black not sure at all...

I thought it looked like Laci J Mailey, who I recognized from Continuum.
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Guys, can anyone help me... I cant remember where I've seen the actress who plays Elliot's bride before (her character's name is Fen apparently)... I think it's on Orphan Black not sure at all...

Laci J. Mailey - her IMDB page lists iZombie, Falling Skies, Supernatural, and Continuum but not Orphan Black.

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The scene when they are all going into the outhouse/Wellspring, Julia lags behind Alice and swipes the knife.

Alice walks in first with Quinton:

tumblr_o5jxzeK2r01uyywgco1_540.gif

 

and Julia walks in last (pulling a Prue Halliwell the door as she walks in, by the way):

tumblr_o5jxzeK2r01uyywgco2_540.gif

 

No way she swiped it walking in....the only thing I can think is that she telekenetically swiped it when Martin showed up. Also weird that Martin focused/noticed everyone else....except for Julia. Actually, watching the end scene again, you only see a flash of Julia in the shack (a reaction shot) once he flutters in. Was that purposeful? 

Edited by Gwen-Stacys
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So if Martin went into Fillory in 1942, the same "book" that Q and Julia appeared in, does that make the button story from "book 6" incorrect?

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Laci J. Mailey - her IMDB page lists iZombie, Falling Skies, Supernatural, and Continuum but not Orphan Black.

 

Oh thanks !

 

Yeah, now I remember her from Supernatural (she was the sheriff assistant on the season 11 double-premiere), iZombie (just a case of the week role) and Continuum (The commissioner's daughter whom her father tried to make infiltrate Liber8) ! Thank you ! :)

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Black Knight, I really like your speculation regarding Julia and the time loop. It makes sense that Julia feels responsible for The Free Traders - not in the least because they saved her, gave her a sense of purpose and a (magical) home. I hope she manages to save them in return - and perhaps Jane too.

 

This was - as grandmocha wrote - fucking intense. I knew there had to be more to the seance with Our Lady Underground than what we glimpsed in Julia's flashbacks, but I wasn't prepared for that. I like the fact that Quentin was almost circumstantial to the action: that his purpose was to give Alice the knife, to make sure Julia came with them to Fillory. I really think this show has some awesome female characters - pro-active in a way I really can admire, even when I don't always agree with their actions. Hopefully Kady will be part of the Fillory-mystery next season.

 

 

1) Why didn't Julia and Quentin tell Jane/Eliza the beast had killed her?

2) Why didn't the Watcherwoman Jane tell Julia and Quentin the beast was Martin?

3) Why did Marina come help Julia? How come she knew how to modify memories? What did they do with all the blood, body parts and bodies? Does Marina know or feel Julia is a special snowflake? Marina could have simply erased Julia's memory of everything (like Brakebills erasing any memory of being there once you get kicked out). Why did she create a new "good" memory and have the Goddess tell Julia her destiny and mission was to use magic for good?

 

4) The show answered my previous questions of why the Beast was so powerful and why the God Ember was doing nothing. So now this Wellspring is the source of all magical power and it created the Gods? What? Still don't understand how the Library and Librarians fit in the magical hierarchy.

 

Most have already been answered, but here's my two cents:

 

1) Julia and Quentin did tell Eliza-as-the-Watcherwoman that she died - that was the whole point of the "mind the chin" conversation.  I think she knew it was by the Beast's hand; who else would have motive to kill her? Or did you mean why they didn't tell child!Jane? I don't think it would have helped Jane anyways, since they didn't, at that point, know that the Beast was Martin, and she hadn't yet started the time loop.

 

2) I have no idea? Not to mess up the time loop? To make the revelation for us viewers more intense?

 

3) Both Eliza and Ember said that the magic done to Julia was crude. Meaning Marina hadn't done a very good job. As for why she gave her a "happy" memory instead, I think it was because Marina otherwise would have to erase A LOT of memory - everything to do with The Free Traders in fact, and that big of a memory loss would be noticable and therefore easier to unrave by Julia herself. A happy memory of the rest of her group going on individual quests would also make Julia less likely to seek them out. As for why Marina would help Julia? Maybe she did have a sliver of compassion left? I'm guessing they magicked the bodies and the blood away...

 

5) Hopefully the Library and the Librarians will show up next season so we can get to know more about them, but a watchgroup outside 'regular' magic is a stable in fantasy literature.

 

I have loads of questions too, but I just bought all three of the books because I can't wait till next year to know what's going to happen. So I'm going to bury myself in those - and cross my fingers it won't screw up the viewing experience for me (I don't think so. I'm very good at compartmentalizing when it comes to adaptions - that's how I can like both versions of Game of Thrones ;))

 

Edited to add: I hadn't realized there were a page 2, so I've changed my reply in reflection of that. (Note to self: Learn to read)

Edited by feverfew
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I did think it was interesting that Marina was still referred to as a "hedge" since by that time, she'd had gotten all of her Brakebills memories back and had only been 3 months shy of graduating.  Maybe despite the returned memories, she still had learned skills as a hedge, so that controlled the 'taste' of her spells more?

 

The fact that Julia called Marina at all was still surprising.  Last we saw Marina, she was till taunting Julia in rehab and saying "don't come looking for me or I'll kill everyone you love".  Doesn't exactly sound like someone you'd call for help.  

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I did think it was interesting that Marina was still referred to as a "hedge" since by that time, she'd had gotten all of her Brakebills memories back and had only been 3 months shy of graduating.  Maybe despite the returned memories, she still had learned skills as a hedge, so that controlled the 'taste' of her spells more?

Didn't she basically call herself "queen hedge" back when that came up? If so, then I don't think the nomenclature has anything to do with her Brakebills memories or lack thereof. It's her current gig.

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No way she swiped it walking in....the only thing I can think is that she telekenetically swiped it when Martin showed up. Also weird that Martin focused/noticed everyone else....except for Julia. Actually, watching the end scene again, you only see a flash of Julia in the shack (a reaction shot) once he flutters in. Was that purposeful?

That was really cool Gwen-Stacys! Thanks for putting up those screen shots. I went back and watched again. You are right, she didn't swipe it while they were going into the WellSpring. What I noticed on the 2nd viewing was the camera zooming in on the knife attached to Alice's back hip and then showing Julia (who is further back) raising her hand. The scene ended with Julia looking around and then closing the door using telekinesis (she raised her hand again). I think you are right again, she must have used telekinesis to swipe the knife. No other explanation and the editing seems to support the telekinesis theory.

 

Julia is not actually shown entering the WellSpring, so I guess that must be significant too.

 

Another question/mystery to me. Why does the Beast use the moth disguise? None of the Scoby Gang knew what adult Martin looked like until he shed the disguise at the end. On a shallow note, I thought the adult Martin looked older than adult Jane. For some reason, I imagined adult Martin having a more youthful appearance. I guess it was because of the distinctive dance walk he was shown to have in the pilot and the way he spoke. I was expecting the adult Martin to look like the "Charlie's Angels" movie villain who kinda walked like the Beast.

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I have so many questions and nit picks now:

Who really wrote all the Fillory and Further books? Plover was already trapped (and being tortured) in Fillory when young Jane met the Witch and the Fool. Are the books enchanted?

Why didn't Julia and Quentin tell Jane/Eliza the beast had killed her?

Why didn't the Watcherwoman Jane tell Julia and Quentin the beast was Martin?

Why did Marina come help Julia? How come she knew how to modify memories? What did they do with all the blood, body parts and bodies? Does Marina know or feel Julia is a special snowflake? Marina could have simply erased Julia's memory of everything (like Brakebills erasing any memory of being there once you get kicked out). Why did she create a new "good" memory and have the Goddess tell Julia her destiny and mission was to use magic for good?

I'm sad the season is over so let me take a crack at a few of these to give my thoughts:

 

1. Why didn't Julia and Quentin tell Jane/Eliza the beast had killed her?

I'm going to fanwank that what happened in that particular time loop had already happened and couldn't happen any other way in that particular time loop as in the Jane that exists outside of time is already dead so telling Jane's past self that she dies was simply enough. In order for her to prevent her death they literally would have had to tell her the exact time and circumstances under which she died before they were in that time loop. 

 

2.  Why did Marina come help Julia?

It was obvious she liked Julia from the time she was a hedgewitch to even after she betrayed her. She and Julia actually were friends at one point. Even when she was testing Julia in the locker and Julia didn't know she was the head-hedge, Julia was kind to her. She killed Kady's mother and only banished Julia (But she could have killed her.) When Julia was getting mental help in rehab she told her once again that she actually liked her and she just wanted her to stay out of her way. Also, if I were Marina, the fact that someone who I threatened multiple times called me to ask for help would have been intriguing to say the least because that person must REALLY be desperate.

 

3.  How come she knew how to modify memories? 

From studying how to reverse what was done to her she probably had to learn how to do it also we do know that the students learn how to control other beings so eventually them learning how to wipe memories seems like it would be taught in Brakebills.

 

4.  What did they do with all the blood, body parts and bodies?

I'm going to say since hedges aren't the nicest people around someone like Marina probably has a cleanup crew. Also it's probably universally accepted that stuff like that can happen when you're a ~*magician*~ and they probably are adept at covering up those things so the world doesn't know they exist. 

 

5.  Does Marina know or feel Julia is a special snowflake?

I don't know if she knows that she knows she's a special snowflake.  In other words, she knows she's different and very intelligent and after trying multiple times to get her memories back Julia was the one that came through for her. Also Julia pulled off becoming one of the highest level hedge witches in a short amount of time. She's obviously brilliant. 

 

6.  Marina could have simply erased Julia's memory of everything (like Brakebills erasing any memory of being there once you get kicked out). Why did she create a new "good" memory and have the Goddess tell Julia her destiny and mission was to use magic for good?

She wasn't that great at casting the spell in the first place so we don't know if she'd be able to do more than just cover up that one moment. Furthermore, it's easier to get away with losing a small portion of time.  Also she created the good memory either because Julia told her to specifically or because, once again, she doesn't actually hate Julia. To Marina's credit the memory she created caused Julia to forgive Quentin, go on his Quest and generally be a kinder person. Apparently what Julia really wanted all along was a purpose. (I think that's quite revealing.) 

 

7. What? Still don't understand how the Library and Librarians fit in the magical hierarchy.

It seems like they exist outside of it. They keep tabs on things and they don't necessarily interact with the outside world. They seem like the Beyonder in Marvel's universe. They somehow watch and catalogue and collect information and that's just about it.

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Just to add to the whole "Marina didn't do a great job with the patch job she did on Julia" discussion, Jane specifically said that she could tell it was done in great haste. My guess is that she was in such a rush to calm Julia down by taking away the bad memories and substituting them with something good that she didn't have the time to do it more elegantly. The important thing was taking away Julia's pain. It seems that most magicians don't have the ability to sense those kinds of memory patches, so Marina's priority wasn't making it invisible to other magicians.

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I think that's probably right, ElectricBoogaloo, I think that the "patch" was sort like putting a tourniquet on an arterial wound in a psychic sense.  

 

One thing that is always hard in a TV show is to try and remember that even if the audience wasn't given an opportunity to know characters, the mostly-unknown-to-the-audience characters are still supposed to have great emotional context for characters that we do know.   So Julia going to save the Free Traders -- which if that's what she is doing, that has to involve time manipulation.  We saw Julia and Kady doing a brief time loop of their own, so the possibility of doing something like that should exist in Julia's mind -- but even if she's doing that and only that -- she's trying to save the lives of other people.   As well as rip the immortal nuts off of her rapist, I think is an order of business that seems likely too.  But they are supposed to be people that matter to her and the concept of it being "selfish" is kind of a strange one to me.  "Oh you cow! You're only thinking of yourself!"  

 

Jane Chatwin's experiments in how to stop her deranged brother are the reason the Free Trader's died.  For the other 39 loops, Julia was with the Brakebill's gang.   The thing Jane changed this time was excluding Julia to see what impact it would have....and the impact it had was getting all those people slaughtered in the real world.  That's not just a factor of Julia's choices.  She was their conduit for the divine, she does feel responsible (as she should) and they are as much victims of Martin Chatwin's existence as The Beast as the Brakebill's group is.   Excluding Julia led her -- eventually -- to the Free Traders.  Julia was excluded as part of a plan to try and stop Martin, but what makes it acceptable that the Free Traders are cannon fodder for that?   

 

In some ways watching the Free Traders being slaughtered -- because they are meant to be Julia's close friends, people who accepted her, helped her find peace with everything that had come before and who all had things they were trusting in a divine presence to help fix-- would have arguably been harder for Julia than Quentin watching his peer group at Brakebills being attacked like that.  Not that suffering is a contest, but Julia's relationship to the Free Traders was like that of a family, but one without competition in it.  Apparently in all loops, the Brakebills group died and Quentin was the one who always came back (and he knows that), just as Julia would have had to figure out "Shit!! Excluding me from Brakebills to see what difference it would make is a big part of the reason those people died!!" 

 

So I just can't view what she did as "selfish" because presumably isn't doing anything other than trying to save the lives of people she cares deeply about, who only died because Julia has been a pawn in a game she didn't know she was playing.  

 

Now, that's all assuming that is what Julia is doing and that she plans to return, which again, we won't know one way or another until next season.  The thing is, I can't imagine what else she can be up to and time loops and time manipulation have figured heavily in this story. 

Edited by stillshimpy
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But they are supposed to be people that matter to her and the concept of it being "selfish" is kind of a strange one to me.  "Oh you cow! You're only thinking of yourself!"

I don't know. I mean deciding that you want to get back people you lost or even wanting to get revenge is one thing. But deciding you're entitled to sacrifice others to do it wouldn't exactly put you in my altruistic column. Her taking the knife and allowing them to go in and face Martin anyway pretty much guaranteed they'd be killed off and even then she only waited until he was going after Quentin again before she stepped in. And the show has already shown us, well mostly told us, that just because you can possibly go back in time and create time loops doesn't mean things can just magically be made better and that they can even end up worst.

 

The writers have already said they don't plan to shy away from Julia dealing with the trauma of being raped and watching all those people die, but I also hope they don't shy away from her actions in this episode either. Understanding what a character may be going through doesn't have to mean excusing everything they do.

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I'm thinking that maybe Julia could have had more faith in her friend Quentin and his Scooby Gang.  After all, they found a way to beat Martin if she let it happen.  Maybe in working together they could have found a way to beat Rapey McRaperson.

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I don't know. I mean deciding that you want to get back people you lost or even wanting to get revenge is one thing. But deciding you're entitled to sacrifice others to do it wouldn't exactly put you in my altruistic column. Her taking the knife and allowing them to go in and face Martin anyway pretty much guaranteed they'd be killed off and even then she only waited until he was going after Quentin again before she stepped in.

 

That's why I tihink it was only part of her plan.  To save the Free Traders, she has to go back in time - and that means she would be starting over again in the same loop.  

 

The loop hasn't ended yet or even if it has, it doesn't matter.   Julia should have grabbed Martin right before the loop ended, because the Brakebills kids were dying, not dead but that's sort of beside the point.  If she's going back in time to prevent the Free Traders dying, that's not the only thing that it would do.  Julia left with Quentin after the Free Traders died.   She should be creating a giant do-over.    

 

She should be going back to a time right before the Free Traders died, probably killing Martin with that knife and reentering the timeline before she even goes to Fillory with Quentin.   That is, if she's going back in time to save the Free Traders.  

Edited by stillshimpy

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If she's going back in time to prevent the Free Traders dying, that's not the only thing that it would do.  Julia left with Quentin after the Free Traders died.   She should be creating a giant do-over.

if her plan is to go back in time before Renard was summoned and save her friends why would she need someone with the ability to kill a god?

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She's not going to save her friends, she's going back to kill Renard. The fact that this could save her friends is a bonus. If it were just about saving her friends she could let the Beast get killed then go back in time and convince the Free Traders not to summon a god in the first place and if they kept trying, not to help them because it seems like it was her help that made them successful. They could always then try to find a way to stop Renard.

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She's not going to save her friends, she's going back to kill Renard. The fact that this could save her friends is a bonus. If it were just about saving her friends she could let the Beast get killed then go back in time and convince the Free Traders not to summon a god in the first place and if they kept trying, not to help them because it seems like it was her help that made them successful. They could always then try to find a way to stop Renard.

 

Reynard is just as bad as the beast, arguably worse as he is a god and thus harder to kill. And killing a god, before Martin Chatwin had done, seems like it was an unheard of thing: most people didn't think it could be done. Why wouldn't Julia, a recent victim, think it was a good idea to partner up with the one person who could potentially solve all of their problems? Quintin and his group wouldn't have gotten anywhere without Julia. It was her idea that lead them to Umber, or whoever, in the first place (the only person willing to give it a shot being the person that she went with; in fact Margo all but called her stupid for suggesting it). With that in mind, why would she think that they could help her? Or even would, for that matter? They hate Julia; even said as much when Q showed up with her in tow.

 

One thing the show has shown over and over is that Julia is the special-snowflake magician that Q thinks/thought he was. And she's fairly intelligent, I think there's a lot more to her plan than we know yet. 

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One thing the show has shown over and over is that Julia is the special-snowflake magician that Q thinks/thought he was. And she's fairly intelligent, I think there's a lot more to her plan than we know yet.

Well so are Alice and Penny. They don't have to like each other to work together (although they do have to be able to trust one another). Maybe if she'd trusted them a little bit more they could have all come together to find a way to save her friends and stop Renard without also potentially unleashing a beast back onto the world. Does Julia think she's the only one who knows how to double-cross people? Also just because she's smart about some things doesn't mean she's smart about everything. We've also seen that repeatedly. 

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Does Julia think she's the only one who knows how to double-cross people?

 

Julia thinks she's the only one who knows anything, can do anything and can be trusted. That is her downfall. She thinks she deserves to be the best. I know Q does too, but his desire to be the savior/king/best of Fillory seems to come more from insecurity where Julia just seems like she thinks the world owes her something because...reasons. She's very entitled and I seriously doubt she gave the Brakebills kids a second thought in her big plan. her plan was about revenge and saving people she likes, which, fine, but it doesn't make her heroic to screw over a bunch of other people.

 

Quintin and his group wouldn't have gotten anywhere without Julia.

 

And Julia wouldn't have been anything more than a typical Brakebill brat if it weren't for Jane. Alice is much stronger than Julia, smarter, too without having to be separated from the herd. Julia needed to be forced to fight for magic in order to be useful, and it backfired because the only person she's helping is herself. I'm sure if Jane were alive she'd be regretting this change as much as she regretted all the others.

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I mean, I can agree with that. Julia's downfall has always been her hubris and jumping into things without thinking them through (playing the prank on Q, steeling the cabinet from Mariana, summoning a goddess, making a deal with The Beast, etc). But like I said earlier, all of the characters are deeply flawed, and achingly human. They've all done dumb things all for the sake of emotion (Alice refusing to let anyone kill her niffin!brother while she tried to save him, resulting in the death in a few people, letting the beast into breakbills in the first place, and almost getting herself killed; Penny being difficult in general; Elliot being self-destructive and almost getting the group killed, etc.) 

 

So with Julia, while I think she made a dumb decision with The Beast....I can understand why she did it. She's angry and feels both foolish, betrayed, guilty, violated, and vengeful:

 

Quinton: Jules…
Julia: Yea, I know. What the fuck were we thinking

Quinton: You were trying to do good and you got duped. It’s not your fault. But Jules, you saved KAdy….

Julia: But what about everyone else? You know, what about….

Quinton: Hey, I’m going to help you. I promise, whatever that means

Julia: It means find him. And it means kill him. And somehow I doubt that that’s easy or even possible.

 

I'm still not ruling out another timeloop being introduced though. Julia knows about them (her friends made one in her apartment while her Kady were studying up) and so does Q...That has to come back in play somehow. Not to mention the whole, never seeing Julia walk into the wellspring/library and The Beast never noticing her until she had the knife to her throat. I need answers!

Edited by Gwen-Stacys

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So with Julia, while I think she made a dumb decision with The Beast....I can understand why she did it. She's angry and feels both foolish, betrayed, guilty, violated, and vengeful

 

Oh, I totally get why she did it, and I can't say I wouldn't do the exact same thing if I were in her shoes. I kind of like that even they are all pretty flawed and screwed up. I just don't think that, in the moment she took the knife and made the deal with the Beast, that she had some master plan to save everyone. She was acting on selfish impulse, which is understandable. She really just remembered the single worst thing that has happened to her and saw a chance to get revenge for it.

 

Most likely, after she deals with her own vengeance she will figure out a way to save everyone, but if the show tries to make it seem like that was her plan all along, I'm not buying it. It would also really cheapen her characterization IMO because she is so impulsive and fueled by emotion. Making her some saint who had this master plan to save them all (but didn't want to tell anyone about it because...who knows) would go against what I've seen so far.

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Julia thinks she's the only one who knows anything, can do anything and can be trusted. That is her downfall. She thinks she deserves to be the best. I know Q does too, but his desire to be the savior/king/best of Fillory seems to come more from insecurity where Julia just seems like she thinks the world owes her something because...reasons. She's very entitled and I seriously doubt she gave the Brakebills kids a second thought in her big plan. her plan was about revenge and saving people she likes, which, fine, but it doesn't make her heroic to screw over a bunch of other people.

 

One of the things I love about this show is how complex everyone's motivations are. This isn't a typical "super hero" show because people make decisions more typical to what a normal person would. No one on this show is a hero except for maybe Quentin and even then he has a long way to go.  Back to when Alice first summoned her "brother" and inadvertently put other people's lives in danger and got some some killed, that's not something a hero would do. Is she heroic for trying to save her brother? Yes. Is she heroic for not wanting to get rid of it when she knew it was evil? No. If not for Quentin she'd be dead and so would many other people after her.

 

As for Julia: 

 

Is it heroic to screw over a bunch of people she doesn't really know? Of course not.

Is it heroic to try and do something to get revenge for the friends she did know and herself? I think so. 

The problem is: she screwed over people she didn't know to do it but from her perspective she may not feel she owes Penny, Alice, Margo or Elliot anything. 

 

I think one failing of the show is that we didn't really get to know Julia's "friends" other than Kady who just happened to be the one who lived. Otherwise, we've spent all of our time with Quentin 'n co with only random inserts of Julia's life and connections so why should we care about them either?

 

On the other hand do you think Penny, Alice, Margo, Elliot or even Quentin would care about the friends she lost? Did they care about anyone else who has gotten killed because of them except for Elliot's boyfriend of two minutes who only he gave a second thought about? I think they'd tell her to get over it and move on. 

 

And Julia wouldn't have been anything more than a typical Brakebill brat if it weren't for Jane. Alice is much stronger than Julia, smarter, too without having to be separated from the herd. Julia needed to be forced to fight for magic in order to be useful, and it backfired because the only person she's helping is herself. I'm sure if Jane were alive she'd be regretting this change as much as she regretted all the others.

 

 

Alice needed Quentin and Penny to boost her confidence over the season. Julia didn't need anyone and unlike Alice, Julia didn't come from a family of magicians. Alice could have learned a lot of what she learned on her own because she's always had access to it. I don't think Alice is much stronger or smarter than Julia. I just think Alice had more breaks when it came to learning magic than Julia did. Furthermore, I think Alice is only in the group because of Quentin. She was just fine keeping to herself. Julia on the other hand, seems like she would have hung out with the gang without any prompting.

 

As for the other time loops, for all we know Julia could have gotten herself killed thinking she could have taken the beast on solo. As you said, the problem with Julia is that she thinks she knows everything. The fact remains, however, with Julia with them this time they didn't all die. Of course it was her selfishness that caused that and her friendship with Quentin (IMHO) which prompted her to act exactly when she did because she wouldn't let the best go after someone she cared about.

 

I also don't think Jane would have regretted the change since for the first time, after 39 times, the results were different than what had previously happened and everyone didn't die. I do think she would have regretted what happened in order to bring them all to that point and I don't think she'd be pleased at Julia's decisions after but for all we know this could have been the best possible outcome and from what we do know it is. 

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The fact that this finale was an hour and ten minutes reinforces my suspicion that this show was filmed to be about an hour without commercials and SyFy has been seriously editing all the other episodes to make room for them. All along it felt like things were being brushed off and skipped over and big chunks missing here and there. I'd be interested to know once the DVDs come out if that was in fact the case.

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Apologies for tardiness, my stupid work got in the way and I couldn't seem to organize my thoughts on this. But I loved the show, loved the season, and especially loved the finale. As a fan of the books, I thought the show brought the same mix of dark humor, creativity, sensuality and poignance that Bryan Fuller brought to "Hannibal." The showrunners are obviously fans of the books, and I love so much of what they brought to this adaptation (no worries, no spoilers here for books). I never knew what to expect and was constantly exhilarated by how they used the medium of television to further reveal the book characters to us.

I do think the finale exemplifies many of the best and worst aspects of the show's adaptation choices this season -- I loved everything to do with Quentin as the hero in his own mind, his petulance, and his growing realization that no, he is not the hero of this story. I thought Julia's story was horrifying, although I winced at her choice in the end, as it just felt like one more sucker punch to a character I feel is often unjustly maligned and misrepresented. (But still, most of that is nitpicking. I thought it was pretty breathtaking and brave, as was the entire season. )

My favorite little moments in this episode: Eliot handing Margo his flask when he decides to accept the kingship (such a beautiful subtext to his speech to her about wanting to live), Quentin's speech to Alice that she was the hero, Marina's palpable quiet sympathy and horror when Julia starts to try to offer her a trade for her help (Marina was all over the map as a character this season, but I loved where she ended up for Julia here), the lovely gentle conversation with Eliza (my heart broke at her realization that she died this loop), the terrible horrible awful yet mesmerizing "calling the goddess" sequence -- and kudos to all of the actors involved, seriously, holy schnikes, I was a mess during the entire thing -- and last, the genial yet scary appearance of Martin in the end to the kids who were not equipped to fight him at all.

(NOTE: It was not at all fair that the actor who plays Martin/Beast, Charles Mesure, is really, really attractive. I was salivating over him and then hitting myself repeatedly with blunt objects through the entire final scene in remorse. Figuratively.)

On 4/12/2016 at 9:09 PM, FiveByFive said:

(snipped periodically for space)

I can't help but think Julia would have been fine had the mental block placed in her mind by Marina not been removed.

Finally, those kids were not prepared to fight The Beast and got their butts handed to them. Elliot and Janet didn't even have time to act. Alice may be dead and Penny got his hands sliced off. The hands slicing scene + rape and post rape "goo" were disgusting and the fact they didn't shy away from any of it while still having a story about talking rams and magic trees is why this entire show is so special.  Good season. 

I'd agree with both of these thoughts. Julia was literally brought back to being someone still processing the moments after she had just suffered a horrific mental, emotional and physical trauma. There is no room in me whatsoever to hate or judge Julia here. I totally understood her feelings even if I also hope there was more to her actions than we saw here (for instance, as Stillshimpy posits, that she is in fact seeking a larger reboot to save everyone).

I will say that this episode had more of a certain biological substance um, per ounce, than anything I have ever watched, ever. EW! AGHGHGH! Although I did love it when Ember offered Quentin the semen and Quentin simply politely thanked him for it. It totally reminded me of Quentin thanking Alice's Dad for the goat's penis a few episodes earlier ("Oh, nooo, that's okay," said Quentin, "I had some yesterday.").

On 4/12/2016 at 11:17 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I feel for Julia, I really do. She had a terrible TERRIBLE experience. She was tricked, she watched her friends get murdered, and she was raped. But her decision to spare Martin so she could get revenge was selfish.

First off, FWIW, I really hated the "Harry Potter for Grownups" tagline used so often to describe these books, and this first season is a great example of why. The two have nothing in common at all, and I think that really startled people who came into this show expecting something lighter than what they got.

Marina wasn't a character in the books and is a total TV-show-creation, but I do think the show was very uneven with her. I love the actress, Kacey Rohl, who plays her, and loved several moments Marina had in the show, but disliked the middle of the season when she turned campy and started wearing dominatrix-garb 24/7 (about the same time we were constantly being hit over the head by Julia's Magic Addiction (aghgh! Buffy flashbacks!). Luckily, I feel like this was a slight wrong turn that the showrunners corrected.

The thing is, we don't actually know that Julia's actions were selfish. Because we don't know what effect they'll have. If she fully intends to harness Martin and save EVERYONE, then I can't blame her yet. I'm willing to wait and see where the show takes this.

And I'd also add that while the Beast is scary and murderous and horrible, Reynard is TERRIFYING, and to me a much much bigger threat. So I hope Julia justifies my faith in her and shows back up to save everyone (or to allow Alice to do so).

On 4/12/2016 at 4:52 AM, stillshimpy said:

In fairness, I kind of assumed that she wasn't just trying to save the Free Traders, it's just she wanted to save them first.  I assumed she's coming back, she just has more than one more heinous, catastrophic, hideous murder scene to navigate before returning.  

It's interesting that apparently other people assumed she was betraying Quentin, I assumed she actually was trying to fix more than one thing.

(snipped for space)

Also?  Biggest clue that the show is going for a mammoth reset on everything, do you guys really think that they just married off Elliot to a peasant girl in Fillory and that he'll never be able to get it on with anyone else again?  Because I personally think that out of the probable storylines they could go with, that seems one of the least likely. Kind of seemed like a clue not to overly invest in some of the goings on.  Ember and Umber gave Jane Chatwin the ability to manipulate time, she's dead, but Julia also knows that.  So yeah, I just assumed that her deal is going to have to do with the ability to manipulate time, since she's got kind of big menu of things that could use the magical Omega 13 ...and then some. 

Some great points here.  (Bonus points for the GalaxyQuest reference! NEVER GIVE UP! NEVER SURRENDER!)

I agree that Julia -- however clearly/unclearly she might have been thinking then, bless her heart -- wasn't just thinking of herself, and that she is likely going to try something that will enable her to go off and save everyone.

My thought/theory here is slightly different. I keep wondering -- what if she doesn't do a full reboot/reset (which is an idea that as a writer I really dislike) -- but that instead we start next season exactly where we left off, with only the clear implication that a reset occurred in which they are all able to save themselves? I could get behind that. So, for instance, instead of everyone on the verge of death, they are all able to still rise and do battle -- that would be pretty amazing. Because the one big moment I felt the finale left hanging for us is that I desperately wanted to watch Alice unleash her awesomeness and battle the Beast into oblivion, to show everyone (and QUENTIN, ahem) how amazing and powerful she really is. And for Eliot and Margo to join in and support her. And I want to see if Penny's injuries are lessened/averted -- not just because Penny is a beautiful man who needs to call me, but because if Penny has no hands, they're all trapped in Fillory.

On 4/12/2016 at 9:49 AM, JTMacc99 said:

I think we just saw the set up for season 2, where the bad guy that Julia's team released (I blame the whole lot of them) is just as bad if not worse than the beast.

I think it is just as, if not more likely, that Julia is going to end up a strong partner and friend to Q, and that the action she took in this episode was actually the right one.

This is definitely the direction I'm going with it, so fingers crossed.

On 4/12/2016 at 10:18 AM, Gwen-Stacys said:

Julia has been shown to be capable of remorse, empathy, and selflessness in the past two or 3 episodes or so. She apologized to Quinton for what she did to him and even accepted that she had no right to expect him to forgive her for it. She's shown multiple times that she cares for Kady (in fact, if not for Julia's segments, this show would rarely, if ever, pass the Bechdel test.). From pulling her away from the demon thing living underneath the bridge to straight up jumping in front of her when Reynard was going towards her (and getting raped as a way for Kady to escape and live another day). So I think saying that she's always been selfish and never thinks of anyone else is a little unfair.

I so agree with this. Julia is one of my favorite characters, and I disagree with the popular mindset that she's selfish and/or entitled. As we later discovered, Julia was absolutely qualified to enter Brakebills, and her being turned away was (as it turns out) deliberately unfair. So her certainty that she deserved to be there was ultimately justified and supported within the show. She wasn't crazy, jealous, entitled, or smug -- she was a talented magician unfairly turned away, and it almost made her permanently crazy.

On 4/12/2016 at 1:46 PM, krimimimi said:

I think you're right, they've really gone out of their way to show that *everyone* is flawed. Alice, btw, repeatedly put other people at risk in her quest to find/contact her brother the first few episodes. That resulted in the death of at least one prof, the maiming of the perfectly lovely dean, and the near drowning of a couple of psychics. Could easily have been worse if others hadn't intervened.

And that's something I like about this show. They have all been jerks and heroes by turn. It's a nice change.

There was a suggestion upthread that she/they could have used the magic fountain/well/ whatever, but I thought that was revealed as the thing that burnt the humanity out of Martin and created the Beast in the first place. Julia and Martin already have too much overlap.

Great points about Alice (and I love Alice, mind you), or even Eliza and the Dean (who let's face it have resulted in how many deaths over and over again?) -- so yes, I often think Julia gets a bad rap. Yet this is one of the things I've really enjoyed about the show, almost more than the books, because the actors are so talented and have so much room to breathe. They're all adults, but still -- so young, and still so vulnerable, still figuring things out.

On 4/13/2016 at 8:47 PM, snuffles said:

Who really wrote all the Fillory and Further books? Plover was already trapped (and being tortured) in Fillory when young Jane met the Witch and the Fool. Are the books enchanted?

Snuffles, to answer your questions: (1) Plover wrote all but the final unpublished book Eliza/Jane gave Quentin. Plover was trapped in the LATER timeline, but we have no evidence he was trapped in the earlier one; (2) Quentin did tell Eliza pretty blatantly (still hoping she lives somehow); (3) I wonder if there were rules what Eliza could or couldn't tell Quentin (timey-wimey stuff); (4) Marina had apologized to Julia earlier in the asylum and in this ep showed pretty clear horror and sympathy for what she had experienced, so I kind of think the super-murdery-Marina stuff was a misfire in the middle of season 1; I didn't take it that the Wellspring created the gods themselves, just that it was powerful.

On 4/13/2016 at 7:03 AM, theatremouse said:

This episode showed that pretty much everyone in Fillory, save the knife guy, knew about the loop. Knew about this being the 40th try. The Beast knew it was. Previous attempts, every time Q died. So far, this time he didn't. Julia also knew by then in the earlier attempts she died by this point too. So the change of Julia not getting into Brakebills caused two forks. 1) Julia's not dead yet. 2) Instead she gets raped after watching several murders mid an attempt to let Kady get away.

Great point that the time loop was clearly acknowledged here and that the Beast was aware of it as well. It's also a great reminder that we have no idea what Julia's actions will actually do yet OR that she has actually betrayed Quentin and his group at all.

On 4/13/2016 at 1:40 PM, stillshimpy said:

(snipped to individual thoughts for space)

I'm with you, grandmocha, I have missed having a scifi/fantasy show in my life (GoT being something of a grim slog at times) and this show has made me laugh out loud on more than one occasion. 

That's just a guess though, because it's the only way that I can think to explain why Jane and Fogg wouldn't just tell the Brakebills gang everything and set about trying to train them specifically for their encounters.  But that's also based on the things like Fogg not telling Quentin Martin was The Beast. 


Marina went to see Julia in rehab and did actually express something resembling regret and something approaching (for a psycho) fondness for Julia and Julia knew that she had the knowledge from Brakebills, because Marina stole it.  She also knew that Marina could alter memories because Marina altered James memory.  


Seemingly so, but it's also possible that Marina actually feels some guilt for having killed Kady's mother and used Julia.  When Julia met Marina, she was an expelled Brakebills student who had magic forcibly removed.  She's apparently been given back a lot of information and power, partially because she got to know Julia.  Her bitterness and anger might have started to dissipate and also, it's possible that she does feel some form of gratitude to Julia, because she really is the reason that Marina got that knowledge back. Remember Richard said that magic was a drug, because they were treating it like a drug.  Marina got a giant, lifetime fix, so maybe that just improved her mindset overall?  Plus, Marina actually looked shaken as hell by that scene.  


I've so enjoyed this show, and think it's honestly a much riskier and more enjoyable adaptation than "Game of Thrones" (although yes, I still watch obsessively). 

My guess on Eliza/Jane and Fogg is that there are rules (TIMEY WIMEY!) that keep them from simply sitting the kids down and revealing all. I mean, let's face it, the Dean has to not only get truth-serumed by Quentin but he presumably has to maneuver Quentin into doing so at the most opportune time. I can see all of that getting pretty hairy pretty fast.

Your take on Marina is pretty much mine. I do think some character notes were clumsy mid-season (especially the sudden swerve into "I-am-Death" and the cruel killing of Kady's Mom. But it could be argued that Kady's Mom died as a result of a spell by Marina set to protect them from theft (albeit a bridge too far), and that the later and earlier Marinas were more what the showrunners had in mind. I found the rehab scene odd and clumsily staged, but it was an attempt to (I think) undo some of that damage and restore some of the original affinity between the characters. Regardless, I was really moved by the final scene between Marina and poor Julia, and I was glad Marina didn't pull any "quid pro quo" crap with Julia either at the time. 

I also do think it's important and noteworthy that Marina was wronged by Brakebills just as Julia was, and robbed of several years of power, knowledge and memories. So I'm interested to see if she returns next season and if she's still a peripheral character (and if some of these story points are rectified/smoothed out).

On 4/16/2016 at 8:19 AM, stillshimpy said:

In some ways watching the Free Traders being slaughtered -- because they are meant to be Julia's close friends, people who accepted her, helped her find peace with everything that had come before and who all had things they were trusting in a divine presence to help fix-- would have arguably been harder for Julia than Quentin watching his peer group at Brakebills being attacked like that.  Not that suffering is a contest, but Julia's relationship to the Free Traders was like that of a family, but one without competition in it.

This is probably the most crucial area in which the show failed for me, in a minor way. I wanted to know those people better, to feel more at their loss. I wish we could have cut more hedge witch/addiction stuff and been able to spend more time truly liking, knowing and investing in the Free Traders. I wanted to know them better and to see Julia achieve the acceptance she so craved, both magical and familial.

Edited by paramitch · Reason: messed up quotes!
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8 hours ago, paramitch said:

but that instead we start next season exactly where we left off, with only the clear implication that a reset occurred in which they are all able to save themselves? I could get behind that. So, for instance, instead of everyone on the verge of death, they are all able to still rise and do battle -- that would be pretty amazing. Because the one big moment I felt the finale left hanging for us is that I desperately wanted to watch Alice unleash her awesomeness and battle the Beast into oblivion, to show everyone (and QUENTIN, ahem) how amazing and powerful she really is. And for Eliot and Margo to join in and support her. And I want to see if Penny's injuries are lessened/averted -- not just because Penny is a beautiful man who needs to call me, but because if Penny has no hands, they're all trapped in Fillory.

This I like. As more of a fan of the Brakebills kids, mainly, I think, because I feel like Julia's story was just so depressing and miserable and isolated while Brakebills had some lighter moments, and more bonding between the group which gives more of a chance for them to develop personalities. I don't feel like Julia's character got developed beyond her desperation to be special. Which Q, who also has a desperation to be special, kind of got his ass handed to him in that department by being surrounded with people just as or more special.

I just really hate the idea that Julia, devastated by just remembering her own brutal rape and the basic slaughter of her group of friends is so wonderful and perfect that she is thinking of how she can save total strangers. I prefer it, and it would feel more true to a real person rather than some ridiculously perfect hero if she is just thinking about saving her friends but that in doing so she sets in motion a way for Team Brakebills to then save themselves. I want Alice to be  her own hero, with Penny, Q, Eliot and Margo by her side. I don't want basic total stranger Julia being the one who saves them all because she's a special snowflake with a totally unrealistic plan she came up with in the middle of what should be a total emotional breakdown.

I don't want any one of them to be the hero but for them all to be heroic.

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One thing I just realized that the finale told us very neatly, is that the Beast hasn't been crooning "Quentin, Quentin, Quentin..." all season because Q is such a special snowflake, he's doing it because (1) of the time loop, and (2) very likely because of the specific scene here, where Quentin meets and attempts to help young Martin.

I just really like the revelation that Quentin wasn't singled out by the Beast (or even Jane, come to think of it) because of his super special love of Fillory, but simply because they MET him decades before he was ever born and knew he would be involved someday. So even in Time Loop #1, the Beast -- and Eliza -- would have gone right for Quentin first.

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1 hour ago, paramitch said:

One thing I just realized that the finale told us very neatly, is that the Beast hasn't been crooning "Quentin, Quentin, Quentin..." all season because Q is such a special snowflake, he's doing it because (1) of the time loop, and (2) very likely because of the specific scene here, where Quentin meets and attempts to help young Martin.

I just really like the revelation that Quentin wasn't singled out by the Beast (or even Jane, come to think of it) because of his super special love of Fillory, but simply because they MET him decades before he was ever born and knew he would be involved someday. So even in Time Loop #1, the Beast -- and Eliza -- would have gone right for Quentin first.

Yes, BUT, Q and Julia never would have gone back in time (to get to current Fillory time) if Q and his friends didn't try to get to Fillory in the first place because the Beast was hunting/trying to kill them.  Its a wonderful chicken/egg thing.  

I suppose the original timeline must have had Q and Julia on their own, as Brakebills students, figure out that Fillory was a real place and that they could get to Fillory by going back in time to when Jane found a Fillory entrance.And, assuming they did that, went back to Fillory time with young Jane, what happened next?  Did they again run into the Watcherwoman,older Jane, who sent them forward into Fillory time to try and kill Martin/the Beast on their own, just because?  Then when that didn't work, Jane reset time and kept adding more and more people into the mix, and because Jane kept sending these people, the Beast started trying to kill Q (and then the travelers when Jane used them once or twice in a time loop), which prompted Jane to make other changes, etc.

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So I just wrote this comment that was practically an essay on why I thought this season finale was great only to have my internet go down right as I was posting and for it to disappear completely. I wish this site had a comment save button. Not sure I can muster it again but I'll try. It just might be a bit disjointed.

I will say the problem with time travel being introduced into a show is that it means that at any point everything that happened could be undone. So while the final scene was horrible, it's unlikely things will stay that way. Because, time travel.

On 4/17/2016 at 11:30 PM, Mabinogia said:

Julia thinks she's the only one who knows anything, can do anything and can be trusted. That is her downfall. She thinks she deserves to be the best. I know Q does too, but his desire to be the savior/king/best of Fillory seems to come more from insecurity where Julia just seems like she thinks the world owes her something because...reasons. She's very entitled and I seriously doubt she gave the Brakebills kids a second thought in her big plan. her plan was about revenge and saving people she likes, which, fine, but it doesn't make her heroic to screw over a bunch of other people.

I feel like the writers think they're telling a different story with Julia than we're seeing on screen. She's such an entitled brat that I can't help interpreting everything I see from her in that light. She's been through some terrible things, some really really horrific things. But only because she keeps making the same mistakes over and over again.

The thing I really liked about this episode was that it inverted one of our main story arcs. I call it the Star Wars one but it's much older. It's the 'rags to riches' 'geek plucked from obscurity because he's special and sent to save the world'.

There was a scene in one of the earlier episodes - one of the few scenes in those episodes that I really liked - where Jane says to Quentin 'you have no destiny, everything you do is a choice'. So at that point, we knew that the Beast was only after Quentin because Quentin came after him. It was just a case of sticking around long enough to find out why that was.

Quentin actually referenced that fantasy story arc in this and then explicitly rejected it. To have Quentin, the ultimate geek man-child, hand the knife to Alice was actually amazing. Especially when most of the season had him established as the kind of man-child who couldn't handle powerful women. That single act made this whole episode for me. Because that is character growth.

Contrast that with Julia who constantly casts herself as the hero on her own story and actively tries to recreate the world to make it so. And, not to put too fine a point on it, but it's always other people dying because of it. 

I had a whole other thing I said about Jane becoming a villain in her own story because of the power of the time magic but I'm tired now.

I will finish by saying that in terms of characterisation and plot, this series was actually excellent even if the latter could have done with better execution. I'm still convinced the early episodes had huge chunks cut out of them but thankfully these latter episodes didn't. All in all, this was a good show.

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I really enjoyed this season, including the brutal reveal about Plover a few episodes back, and this rather grisly finale (including the gross but kind of cool bluntness about Ember's faun-god semen).  People who called this Hogwarts: College pretty much nailed what I had naively assumed this would be, and why it sat in my queue for a week before I gave it a chance, and ended up binging it in like 3 days.  It was tough to watch at times, but the intentional trope-busting (like Quentin agreeing that Alice was a better choice, or countless lines of realistic dialogue) made this a stand-out show.

Lot of good thoughts on this, but one thing I just can't agree with is that Julia is in any way right/correct/justified with her betrayal.  Trauma or no, the decision to effectively kill Quentin and his friends isn't some moral "trolley problem" between the Brakebills people and the Free Traders.  For starters, Jane changing this time loop to prevent Julia from going to Brakebills actually seemed to have worked to get them thiiiis || close to beating the terrible decades-long tyranny of The Beast... right up until Julia fucked it all up.  However, in NO way, shape or form is Jane's decision responsible for Julia's friends being killed by the loosed god.  None.  Zero.  Zip.  Zilch.  Nada.  I'm honestly a little creeped out that people are drawing that connection.  

For starters, Julia wouldn't have even been in rehab to meet Richard if she'd handled her rejection like a freaking adult, instead of spiraling downwards after a series of bad choices she made for herself.  Besides, if Reynard was targeting her for being special snowflake, he'd have found her anyway- he's a minor god and the show has made it clear how powerful even they are compared to even gifted magicians.  He'd have put those visions in her head any time she left Brakebills to go into the city, and the same outcome would have occurred.  On the other hand, if she was just wrong place, wrong time then it'd have been someone else- maybe Kady?- who'd be targeted by Reynard as the lone survivor/rape victim/whatever else his plan is.  By this forum's logic, then Julia is now morally on the hook for whatever other woman was raped 39 times in the other timelines while Julia partied it up at Brakebills.

You see this line of thinking from characters in a lot of shows, where some small sin or choice is conflated with the actions of a truly evil character, as if Jane is responsible for The Beast, or Reynard.  It's simply not true: profoundly evil characters are wholly to blame for their actions, not otherwise decent people simply trying to stop them.

 

On 4/13/2016 at 11:39 AM, Hanahope said:

The show does make me wonder what happened in some of the other time lines, since Q had apparently gotten to Ember before (Ember knew Julia was usually killed before).  Did Q know about the time loop in any prior tries?  Is this the first time he had Alice take the essence?  If Q took the essence before and died, that brings me back to why doesn't the Beast just kill Julia when she's not holding the knife to his neck?

Yeah, that last part is really baffling me; the Beast is basically a super magician who's been drinking uncut china-white Magic for decades.  What leverage does Julia have that the first moment she even blinks, he won't just insta-kill her, toss the knife into a giant pit, and then go back to terrorizing everyone and closing off Fillory forever?  Great plan, Julia.

 

On 4/13/2016 at 1:02 PM, theatremouse said:

I think the implication in this episode was Martin got back to Fillory by following Julia and Q into the phone booth in 1942. So either in the other timelines J&Q still did that (hence always being the witch and the fool all along) and just other things happened differently later in terms of them both being dead; or this one changed the way in which Martin got back in, in order to become the beast in the first place.

It's a little ambiguous how they all got there in the previous attempts. We know before Julia was with them at Brakebills and with them in Fillory, but we don't know if all the Brakebills people went to Fillory together simultaneously or if it were still Julia and Quentin going separately together. So if the phone booth thing always happened, then J&Q caused the beast in the first place. (Hilarious to me they seem to have plenty of guilt over other things in this timeline but didn't quite get smacked in the face by that yet.) But if that moment always happens then the lead up is different since presumably in the other attempts Julia would not have had the timey wimey knowledge from her new friends.

That's the fun and horrible thing about looping/parallel timelines.  But I agree that Martin followed them in the phone booth; just as they cross the street the camera switched angles to watch them through a car window, implying the camera was a different character watching them.

 

On 4/16/2016 at 1:56 PM, Poltargyst said:

I'm thinking that maybe Julia could have had more faith in her friend Quentin and his Scooby Gang.  After all, they found a way to beat Martin if she let it happen.  Maybe in working together they could have found a way to beat Rapey McRaperson.

I know!  I mean, bird in the hand, but you kill the Beast, then you focus on Reynard, with time to carefully plan like they did the assault on The Beast.  Because you'll a) have a magical knife that kills magical beings, b) the help of these people who are now seasoned veterans of battling the mightiest foe, and c) you can bring little cakes to Ember when you free him.  See, maybe the god Ember- having been brought treats and freed from his decades/centuries-long prison- will be helpful in showing you how you can take down Reynard by explaining how the Beast did it to him.  There is no reason to keep the Beast alive; Julia apparently got trained in the same CIA schools that thought bringing the worst Nazis of WW2 over as intelligence assets was a good idea.  Actually, in that vein what Julia did was like a GI in 1943 somehow sneaking into Hitler's office, putting a knife to his throat... and then saying "Please come help me kill Stalin!"  Worse, even, since at least Hitler would have a reason to help kill Stalin, whereas I doubt The Beast even cares about Reynard running loose in our world.

 

On 4/16/2016 at 5:58 PM, Gwen-Stacys said:

 

Reynard is just as bad as the beast, arguably worse as he is a god and thus harder to kill. And killing a god, before Martin Chatwin had done, seems like it was an unheard of thing: most people didn't think it could be done. Why wouldn't Julia, a recent victim, think it was a good idea to partner up with the one person who could potentially solve all of their problems? Quintin and his group wouldn't have gotten anywhere without Julia. It was her idea that lead them to Umber, or whoever, in the first place (the only person willing to give it a shot being the person that she went with; in fact Margo all but called her stupid for suggesting it). With that in mind, why would she think that they could help her? Or even would, for that matter? They hate Julia; even said as much when Q showed up with her in tow.

 

One thing the show has shown over and over is that Julia is the special-snowflake magician that Q thinks/thought he was. And she's fairly intelligent, I think there's a lot more to her plan than we know yet. 

Um, because the "one person" she partnered up with is unquestionably, monstrously evil and has a body count already far higher than Reynard or even Julia herself?  Reynard being awful doesn't suddenly make the Beast a forgettable nuisance!  I'm not willing to give her any benefit of the doubt she has some complex, 5th-dimensional genius plan: she's acting entirely on emotion and trauma right now, and up until Ember removed her mental patch she was 100% part of the current plan.  And while the recently exposed trauma may make her impulsive and deadly actions understandable, it's not forgivable.  She's done the worst thing anyone on this show has done outside of The Beast and Reynard, imperiling not only more innocent people in the Scooby Gang, but the countless people in Fillory, plus all travelers, plus any other magical beings/people who The Beast might still have targeted before closing off Fillory forever. 

I do agree with you that she as a character is more the special-snowflake trope that Q wanted to be; clearly there were anvils all season that she's meant for something much more (how quickly she learns spells, the praise of the comatose woman, the idea that she'll create a "new" kind of magic).  It contrasts nicely with the great trope-inverting move to have Quentin recognize this cliche and defer to a far better magician in Alice.

 

On 11/15/2016 at 6:23 PM, AudienceofOne said:

I feel like the writers think they're telling a different story with Julia than we're seeing on screen. She's such an entitled brat that I can't help interpreting everything I see from her in that light. She's been through some terrible things, some really really horrific things. But only because she keeps making the same mistakes over and over again.

The thing I really liked about this episode was that it inverted one of our main story arcs. I call it the Star Wars one but it's much older. It's the 'rags to riches' 'geek plucked from obscurity because he's special and sent to save the world'.

There was a scene in one of the earlier episodes - one of the few scenes in those episodes that I really liked - where Jane says to Quentin 'you have no destiny, everything you do is a choice'. So at that point, we knew that the Beast was only after Quentin because Quentin came after him. It was just a case of sticking around long enough to find out why that was.

Quentin actually referenced that fantasy story arc in this and then explicitly rejected it. To have Quentin, the ultimate geek man-child, hand the knife to Alice was actually amazing. Especially when most of the season had him established as the kind of man-child who couldn't handle powerful women. That single act made this whole episode for me. Because that is character growth.

Contrast that with Julia who constantly casts herself as the hero on her own story and actively tries to recreate the world to make it so. And, not to put too fine a point on it, but it's always other people dying because of it. 

I will finish by saying that in terms of characterisation and plot, this series was actually excellent even if the latter could have done with better execution. I'm still convinced the early episodes had huge chunks cut out of them but thankfully these latter episodes didn't. All in all, this was a good show.

I completely agree with your entire post (which I trimmed a little in quoting), and I think the recognition that Julia is subtly/subconsciously doing the cliche "Chosen One" hero thing to the point of hurting people is really interesting- because as you say, her arc is the mirror opposite of Quentin, who grew to realize over time that while magic is real, it's just another technology and doesn't absolve you of tough choices.  And as you point out, it's not clear the writers are on the same page; although the Julia character has had some epiphanies that she is to blame, she keeps making the same mistakes on a bigger deadlier scale each time.  If The Beast didn't exist in the show, she'd be the number one villain in an "I Am Legend" kind of way: sure she's the hero, and yet causes the most harm.

And yeah... this was a good show, and I eagerly await season 2.

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On 4/14/2016 at 8:11 AM, Triskan said:

 

Oh thanks !

 

Yeah, now I remember her from Supernatural (she was the sheriff assistant on the season 11 double-premiere), iZombie (just a case of the week role) and Continuum (The commissioner's daughter whom her father tried to make infiltrate Liber8) ! Thank you ! :)

It's funny that she was in Continuum because I mostly remember Ryan Robbins (the blade guy) from the episodes he did on the show. I don't think they were both on at the same time, though.

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Caught this on Netflix so was able to watch it all in a few days. Never was a Harry Potter fan, but gave this show some room to grow beyond Hogworts Grad School and I am goad I did. The latter half of the season really picks up and boy does it get dark at times.

This episode alone showed that. Starting with the quips about the episode format and Q with the chapters, the Witch and the Fool and Q asking which one Julia thought he was, Margo's exclamation "Did you just bogart that whole thing?" when Alice was chugging the god juice (so gag worthy). But then you get to the end and the brutal attack Julia had to sustain and the quick defeat of everyone at the hands of the beast.

I think my favorite scene was when Q abdicated to Alice the knife. I read tons of fantasy novels when I was young and totally understood that whole speech he gave about wishing that he could be the "chosen one" and realizing that he wasn't the hero of the story.

Off to start On Demanding S2.

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Well, it took me maybe a week or two to get through the first season of this show, which I now love. I definitely understand some of the issues people had with it, and I certainly didn't expect THAT to happen (I think I was expecting a none-too-subtle reference, like in Heroes; I didn't think they'd actually have it occur and for what felt like so long).

 

Having as of yet watched nothing farther than this episode, it rang true to me that a) Julia would make a deal with the Beast for her own revenge, and b) Marina would come to Julia's aid when called. I can't be that mad at Julia, though in truth she set her friends up for failure once she took the knife for her own purposes. I'm having a hard time with her character in general, even though she reminds me of another actress/character that I adore.

 

As far as the others, it's about the same. I like Penny and Margo unreservedly, and Quentin most of the time (hey look, it's the loser that is me on television!). And I like the others well enough for a suitable enough amount of the time that I'm hooked into their struggles going forward. Now for S2...

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I finished the first season in four days, so I found it very engaging.  I don't tend to watch gory shows so I don't know if I could rewatch it again but I did like this season quite a lot.  

This was a good season finale.  It was fitting that the culmination took place in Fillory.  The chapter titles/narration format was clunky at the beginning, but I grew to like it.  

I'm disappointed the Beast wasn't destroyed since I was getting tired of the threat.  I was also disappointed the Beast turned out to be Martin as many had predicted.  I was also frustrated with what Julia did at the end, just when I was starting to like her again.  What she went through was horrible, but I was hoping that they were setting up the Season 2 villain, not prolonging the current one (though I suppose they needed to, or Fillory would no longer be as central.  In some ways, I'm glad Fillory is sticking around since I want to see more of Jane and the magical world.

I liked that they included deleted scenes from every episode on the DVD.  Some episodes had only very short clips, but some scenes should definitely have been left in for clarity.

Edited by Camera One

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Since I am binge-watching a couple of years after most of these posts, I wanted to say something about the season finale, and the whole season, without spoiling any of season two (because I IMMEDIATELY watched the first few episodes).

  • This series really grew on me, but I had to drag myself through the first few episodes. There was far too much unsaid in the beginning, and I think more than a few viewers gave up if they only watched the first one or two episodes. A series needs to give you enough in the first episode or at least the second to make you want to keep watching, and I think the writers failed. I hear from those who read the books (I did not, not yet) that the first book started with Quentin's journey and the second with Julia's, and I agree with the rewrite of starting them off together. But it came off a little clumsy.
  • Fillory is Narnia. That was obvious from episode one, but they really hit you over the head with it, especially when Quentin and Julia finally get there. It would have been nice to see some distinction made between the two fantasy worlds, but other than leaving out Aslan, they are alike as can be. The Fillory castle is obviously Cair Paravel, there are two kings and two queens, and on and on. We get it!
  • I liked the mental asylum episode for Quentin. You really don't know for sure he would get out of it (maybe I have watched enough of Game of Thrones to accept the idea that NO ONE is not expendable). The only negatives, as others have pointed out, is how easily Marina and Julia entered Brakebills. Did it not occur to the Dean to find a safer way to retrieve Quentin without leaving the whole school unguarded? Put actual security guards on the perimeter, or something? Plus, the Taylor Swift number was over the top, and tied in nicely to his previous run in with Penny (you... racist... m************!).
  • I liked the Beast better as a swarm of moths. He seemed so alien, so sinister, that once we saw his regular self he lost some awesomeness. He also looked a lot skinnier in his first appearance. Note to self: A cloud of moths is slimming!
  • I like the way Elliot and Margo evolved, the more I saw of them, the more I liked them. All of the characters have grown on me, but especially them. The way Penny and Quentin have been frenemies for most of the season is much more realistic than most guy relationships on TV. "OK, we were enemies but now we are best buds!". Nope. Penny still doesn't like Q much, there is still tension. Penny is keeping it real.
  • I don't know where some posters here got the idea that Julia was working wheels within wheels to save everybody, or that she had a time reset planned to save her new friends. She blamed herself for getting her new friends killed, period. She was going to use one evil guy to kill another evil guy, period. It was straight up revenge. If she tried for one minute to work WITH Quentin, things could have worked out better. But that's the tragedy of being driven by our baser emotions. She didn't care what happened to the Scooby Doo gang. She had to get revenge, everyone else be damned. It was a lot more realistic, in a way. You can't judge her too harshly, Marina gave her a quick patch to hide the truth, and the way it was revealed to us the audience was actually really cool: First she tells Quentin her false memory, the Goddess cured everyone, the gang are all off on their own Vision Quests, this was wonderful. Then the patch is removed and we see just how horrible it actually was. Wow.
  • I can't say much more without spoiling what happens next. But the end of this season has really drawn me in and I can't wait to watch the rest of seasons two and three on Netflix, since season four premieres on SyFy in January.
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Hi there, 

Is someone can explain me why Plover seems to come out of nowhere, in a bed, after Alice say "We should see if he's awake by now"… 
I never see they picked someone or visit someone, so…
First, before they discover Plover, "see" WHO "is awake" ? 
Second, how did he come to them ? 

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