S11.E17: Red Meat

[Bruinsfan]

I don't watch this show for this angle, but this episode treated Cas being missing like a love interest being missing.    It was a little odd.

Not to me, it wasn't. dons Season 6 vintage slash goggles...

 

I liked the episode a lot, I felt real tension for a change. The threat of the Empty ramps things up a little. Oh boy does Billie have it out for them! I really liked Michelle (where have I seen her before?).

I'm thinking for all Billie's seriousness, that's a largely empty threat even disregarding the meta of them being the TV show's leads. Everything we've seen in-setting indicates the adventures of the Winchester Brothers are God's favorite form of entertainment, so the decision on their final fate is going to be way above a Reaper's pay grade. And it sounds to me like "the Empty" is just the primordial darkness outside creation, which is currently dipping its toe into the world in the form of Amara. So if Dean gets punted out there, she can presumably return serve him right back in.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Bruinsfan

[catrox14]

 

I don't watch this show for this angle, but this episode treated Cas being missing like a love interest being missing.    It was a little odd.

 

Dean certainly loves Cas on whatever level, so I think Dean's worry and obsession to help him is not unusual for their relationship. After all,  he stayed an entire extra year in Purgatory to find his best friend when he could have left him behind. 

 

I also wonder if some of Dean's emotions and obsession are being fueled by the knowledge that he very nearly killed Cas just a few months ago. He has the guilt from that I'm pretty sure still lurking so he's doubling down on making sure Cas is okay. Combine that with it being Lucifer,  who I would argue Dean hates more than anything in the universe not named Alastair, is now possessing his best friend. 

 

But I definitely agree there is that aspect.

 

There is also the whole Romeo & Juliet vibe to the story telling of this episode and maybe it's foreshadowing a similar thing where  Dean kills himself to try and save Cas.

 

SueB

Wondering about Amara myself, I realized the most logical answer is that she's off on a galactic tour. Checking high and low in other planets, other galaxies, etc... and not tuned into Dean 24x7.  Because she's once again a "too powerful" character.  We had to believe that Dean believed he could die.  Even if at a meta level we've long since understood 'Sam/Dean are not going to stay dead'. This episode was not about whether or not they would both live but HOW they got through the situation and the choices they made.  If the bond between Amara is such that she will truly always help him and he will always help her - it seems to be limited to "while in each other's presence".  Otherwise Dean wouldn't be able to plot against her.  And while Amara is fascinated by Dean, she's got bigger fish to fry* (her brother).  So, they essentially HAVE to keep Amara separate from Dean in order to be able to tell other stories. Otherwise she's the 800 lb gorilla in the room* and everything is about her.

 

I guess the question is how far is the proximity boundary for that to work for me.

 

Amara materialized seemingly out of thin air to appear to Dean in the Darkness Vortex. Why did that happen? Where did she come from? She supposedly saved him there but she had to get there first out of space and time. How did she know where to find him? Since she says they are bound then I figure the Mark must have acted like a homing beacon and she went to whoever had the Mark last? (maybe that's why she mistakenly believes Dean freed her when he didn't? )

 

Since she can materialize out of space and time and knew where to find Dean then it seems to me she is actively choosing not help him.  In O Brother Where Art Thou she materialized next to him out of space and time and zapped him where she wanted him to go. He wasn't in mortal danger in that moment but he was distressed over Sam. But instead of helping him with that distress over Sam, she zapped him away for...reasons....which I still don't entirely understand and/or may have forgotten.

 

Now, maybe since Dean tried to kill her, she decided to not help him anymore.

Edited March 31, 2016 by catrox14

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Supernatural's Sam And Dean Don't Work Out, So How Are They So Durable?
And other not-quite-burning questions about 'Red Meat.'

[Omegamom]

Gah. The reality fails were too much for me this time.

- Sam out of it long enough for Dean Et al. to get to the urgent care center, have treatment, die and be revived, and then he regains consciousness.

- Sam, suffering from a gunshot wound to the belly (what, no sepsis from perforating his intestines?!), plus recuperating from being choked/smothered, manages to take out two werewolves. Super-duper strong critters.

- How do you kill werewolves anyway? I thought it required a silver bullet to the heart? What's with knifing them?

- Sheriff doesn't immediately get the crime scene (Sam's "dead" body) investigated by deputies.

- Dean recuperates from taking and a blow to the head mighty quick.

- Sheriff doesn't restrain cop-attacker at the urgent care center.

- Nobody seems to thinks it's seriously hinky that small wife followed Dean around and they just managed to get into a supply room with no-one seeing them.

- Dean's suicide. Ugh. And calling a Reaper "an evil death machine"? Reapers are neutral (even though Billie's sick of the boys coming back), not evil.

- Dean recuperates mighty quickly from the barbital stuff. And why don't they lock him down then, when they know he's both a cop-attacker and a suicide risk??

- A coupla pints of blood and some stitches, and Sam's good to go? Nah.

- Where are the cops?!? Doc dead, people with holes through their chests, gunshot victim shoots another dude through the heart -- Jesus, even in remote areas, cops would be all over, no empty urgent care center that Sam and Dean can just sashay out of, easy peasy.

I dunno. My suspension of disbelief couldn't handle this particular episode. (It may be related to the fact that I'm bingeing on Criminal Minds, and have been soaked in police procedures and the results of mayhem...)

Anyway. Dean's despair, well done. Billie being hard line, good. Weird Romeo and Juliet overtones, check. Drumming of heels when being choked - nice touch. Sam being stoic and determined, check. Anvilicious "you boys just keep trying to save each other and THIS TIME, TO STOP AMARA, SOMEONE'S GOTTA DIE", got that, though I don't know if the boys have quite yet. How many times are they going to beat us over the head with that particular anvil? The only question is, who? And is it just one, or maybe two?

[catrox14]

I have more thinky thoughts.

 

At first I was kind of unmoved by Dean's lack of emotion because I was expecting a similar reaction as in AHBLpt2 or DSofTM.  But upon re-watch and really studying Jensen's performance I see a lot more going on than I got before at least in my opinion.

 

I think Dean has  been trying to put on a brave face and stay optimistic but I don't think he really believes they will find a way to save Cas and that he's doomed to whatever fate Amara suggested when she kissed him and she said they will become one. I think he's been sliding into a deep depression since he couldn't kill Amara, couldn't keep Sam out of the Cage, and couldn't prevent Cas from saying yes to Lucifer.  He was no control over any of those things. I think seeing Sam dead in Safe House really affected him more than he realizes. There was no comfort for Dean in that. I don't know why it was of comfort to Sam that Dean saw him dead (I've got thinky thoughts on that too).  So I think he's just beaten down and trying to keep going.

 

Dean thought Sam was stable enough and would survive when he went out to beat up tree branches :).  I think he felt things would be okay then...but then he finds Sam dead and that was too much. I think he fully believed in his heart that Sam was dead. He made up his mind in that moment to commit suicide by werewolf. He would take out a few but he wanted to die right alongside Sam.  That's when he decided to end his life, not when he took the pills. IMO that's what he truly wanted. :(.

 

I think the only thing that made him not do suicide by werewolf in that moment was the 'saving people' part of the equation. Once he woke up in the hospital to the reality that Sam was dead...he hears the word death and decides...yeah I'm gonna try this again...but now he does think he  might be able to save Sam but if he dies...well that's still okay too. 

 

I think Dean is not ashamed of trying to make a deal with Billie but more that he truly wanted to die when he was sitting by Sam's body. 

 

:(

[AwesomO4000]

I didn't enjoy this episode, but not because of the Dean sacrifice. They lost me when Dean just looked at Sam and was like "Looks dead to me. Now I'm sad."  No CPR? No pounding his chest? Pray to Cas or Amara or God (can't hurt to try)?  That didn't play for me.

 

I think there were a few things in play here that affected this for me. The first being the civilians. The husband kept reminding Dean that there was an outside threat, so Dean didn't really have much time to consider staying. Also Dean believed the husband when he said that Sam died. So Dean checking for Sam's pulse was his check to "confirm" that.

 

As for the CPR - weirdly Sam and Dean never seem to do that in this verse. When they get people out of the water - as in the episode with the creepy dolls - they don't try CPR either. When Dean was choking in "Mystery Spot," Sam didn't seem to try the Heimlich either. Ditto when Sara was being killed by Crowley, Sam didn't try any CPR. It's kind of odd that way.

 

Castiel though - Dean praying for Cas wouldn't do much good, since he's possessed by Lucifer. All it might've potentially done is bring a pissed Lucifer his way. Also praying for the nearest angel - since except for Lucifer in Castiel, they still don't fly as far as I can tell - didn't work out all that great at last time Dean tried that one (he ended up with Gadreel in Sam blackmailing him for months). And Amara - Dean doesn't want his connection to Amara, so I could see him not calling for her. It would've been almost like Sam asking Lucifer for a favor in season 5 - best not to open that can of worms, I think.

 

Omegamom: - Where are the cops?!? Doc dead, people with holes through their chests, gunshot victim shoots another dude through the heart -- Jesus, even in remote areas, cops would be all over, no empty urgent care center that Sam and Dean can just sashay out of, easy peasy.

 

I'm not sure about all of the rest of the cops, but at least one of them was dead, and I think another cop - or he might've been a ranger - was a werewolf. We saw the sheriff, I think (I need a rewatch here) trying to get a hold of one of the other cops who had gone to check out the scene and he was dead in his car. Also Mr Sheriff seemed like a pain in the ass control freak to me, so my guess is his department is pretty small, and likely most of his deputies and other cops avoid him when possible - heh I would.

 

- How do you kill werewolves anyway? I thought it required a silver bullet to the heart? What's with knifing them?

 

I assumed a silver knife? Which in a way is smart, because it's reuseable and even though it's close quarters, is likely easier to aim and/or manipulate than trying to get a bullet right into the wolf's heart if he/she is coming at you. Then they also don't have to worry about running out of bullets or accidentally hitting the civilians with a stray one. I was glad to see that they had evolved a little bit in their hunting techniques, likely through their experiences. The question for me is do they still sometimes use the silver bullets also, or have they moved entirely to silver knives only?

 

I dunno. My suspension of disbelief couldn't handle this particular episode. (It may be related to the fact that I'm bingeing on Criminal Minds, and have been soaked in police procedures and the results of mayhem...)

 

I just couldn't with that show. I watched an episode or two before I saw one episode that was way too into the torture porn,* and I thought to myself "what sick person wrote this?" and "Why am I watching this?" I gave it a chance and watched to the end to see what happened, if it got any better, or even if it made any sense for me. It didn't, and it also was a waste of a good guest actor as far as I was concerned - I'd seen him in a great and creepy role on The X-Files previously - so after that I never bothered to try again. If I'm going with a CBS procedural, I prefer Cold Case. Not surprisingly, I like the use of music in that show. Usually though, I go for the NBC or the occasional ABC procedural shows. I miss Crossing Jordan.

 

* As in the scene went on for minutes it seemed, in detail, about how this guy disarticulated people while alive via some machine he created - I suspect they used a person who was double jointed or something for the "money shots" - while they screamed and gasped. No, thank you. I don't like torture porn. It's bad enough when SPN does it with demons, but that was way too much for me.

[Bruinsfan]

- How do you kill werewolves anyway? I thought it required a silver bullet to the heart? What's with knifing them?

I thought it just required killing them with silver in general, which it's probably smartest to do from a distance via bullet given that they're savage, super-strong, and have claws, fangs, and Woverine-fast regeneration. I remember back in Season 2 Dean was talking about seeing their dad hunt down a werewolf, and he still found them impressive despite having fought demons and a whole coven of vampires by that point.

[catrox14]

I thought it just required killing them with silver in general, which it's probably smartest to do from a distance via bullet given that they're savage, super-strong, and have claws, fangs, and Woverine-fast regeneration. I remember back in Season 2 Dean was talking about seeing their dad hunt down a werewolf, and he still found them impressive despite having fought demons and a whole coven of vampires by that point.

 

They used silver in general. It has to pierce the heart. So that could be silver bullets, silver knives, silver throwing stars etc

[trxr4kids]

They used silver in general. It has to pierce the heart. So that could be silver bullets, silver knives, silver throwing stars etc

Dammit why haven't they used throwing stars? I mean it's season 11!

[sarthaz]

I think there were a few things in play here that affected this for me. The first being the civilians. The husband kept reminding Dean that there was an outside threat, so Dean didn't really have much time to consider staying. Also Dean believed the husband when he said that Sam died. So Dean checking for Sam's pulse was his check to "confirm" that.

 

 

The husband who wanted to leave Sam behind because he was slowing them down?  Yeah, I'd just take that guy's word for it. :)

 

 

As for the CPR - weirdly Sam and Dean never seem to do that in this verse. When they get people out of the water - as in the episode with the creepy dolls - they don't try CPR either. When Dean was choking in "Mystery Spot," Sam didn't seem to try the Heimlich either. Ditto when Sara was being killed by Crowley, Sam didn't try any CPR. It's kind of odd that way.

 

Good point.

 

 

Castiel though - Dean praying for Cas wouldn't do much good, since he's possessed by Lucifer. All it might've potentially done is bring a pissed Lucifer his way. Also praying for the nearest angel - since except for Lucifer in Castiel, they still don't fly as far as I can tell - didn't work out all that great at last time Dean tried that one (he ended up with Gadreel in Sam blackmailing him for months). And Amara - Dean doesn't want his connection to Amara, so I could see him not calling for her. It would've been almost like Sam asking Lucifer for a favor in season 5 - best not to open that can of worms, I think.

 

Not saying they were good ideas, just that he didn't try anything. He's killing himself to make a deal with a Reaper, so it's not like he's above "try anything even if it's a terrible idea".  Seriously, Dean would make a deal with Lucifer to save his brother, or suffer Gadreel douchebaggery again to save Sam, or whatever weird kinky shit Amara's got in that messed up head of hers.  He went to Hell to save Sam.  He left the gates of Hell open to save Sam.  He killed Death to save Sam.  Just the way he literally tries nothing rang hollow to me, especially when later in the episode he actually does try something, making it clear that he hadn't given up and accepted Sam's death -- it was just lazy writing.

[catrox14]

Dammit why haven't they used throwing stars? I mean it's season 11!

 

RIGHT??? I mean come on!! They still have that damn grenade launcher they haven't used.  Maybe Dean just forgot and there are some throwing stars buried in the very back of the trunk

 

Not saying they were good ideas, just that he didn't try anything. He's killing himself to make a deal with a Reaper, so it's not like he's above "try anything even if it's a terrible idea".

 

I think in this case, Dean wasn't trying to save Sam. He was trying to kill himself to be with Sam. That's why he didn't try CPR etc. Dean was done IMO. He was out of moves, Sam was dead. He doesn't think Cas can be saved.  He thinks he's doomed. If he dies, he knows he's going to the Empty and as long as Sam is there...I think that was all he cared about. Truly.

 

I don't know why the 'saving people' snapped him out of that moment but it did.

 

It really does bother me that the show ....thus far hasn't and maybe they still will...address that Dean was blatantly suicidal in this episode. 

[catrox14]

Did Billie call Sam "The Big W"?  Does that make Dean the Little W?

 

I think it makes Dean the Deadly W. I don't like either of them being called the W it reminds me of George W...no thanks LOL

[poppy-]

I think seeing Sam dead in Safe House really affected him more than he realizes.

Definitely, and the two shots echoed on another.

I just watched a season 2 episode with a not-very-dissimilar plot, Croatoan. Sam is going to die. Dean, without hesitation, decided he'll die too. What was hard in that episode was Dean saying "I'm so tired" and talking about how he's over it, done with hunting, exhausted from dealing with it all (at that point "it all" was really just his dad dying / going to Hell). He looked so young.

[catrox14]

Soul-eater possessed!Dean said that Dean wanted to be with the Darkness.

 

Just come with me into The Nest.

I can keep you safe from The Darkness.

Dean, listen to me. I know you're in there.

Fight this!

Rufus...

I can't let you trap me.

Ooh.

Then, we got a problem then, don't we?

Dean, stop this!

Your brother wants to go to The Darkness.

He needs to go, but I can keep you safe -- both of you -- forever

 

 

I wonder if this was a subconscious thing for Dean and so him considering suicide is because the Darkness wants him to do it. 

 

Is the Darkness a metaphor for depression now? Did maybe the kiss she planted on Dean do something ELSE to him. Like instead of taking his soul she imparted something else in him...? Something that is slowly sucking away his will to live, hence the "I'm just a witness' thing?

 

I wonder if Dean is less inclined to save himself because he thinks his pain will finally be over when he dies. And that if his raison d'etre is dead then what's the point to his life.

Edited April 1, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

It wasn't one of the best episodes, but it was ok.  I didn't think Dean was specifically trying to kill himself.  I just think that when the girl mentioned what her mother always said, "death isn't the end", he got his brilliant idea to have another face to face with Billy to save Sam.  He didn't even realize she was there to reap him, until he offered himself as a trade for Sam.  I know that Dean has self-worth issues, but he did tell the girl to get help and have the doctor try to save him.  He was even giving them pointers about "turning him on his back and finding a vein", and this was before Billy had even shown up.  If he were strictly suicidal, he wouldn't have said that.  

 

They have a lot of loose ends to tie up in the remaining episodes.  I really don't want any of the current story arcs to carry over to next year, so they'd better get to work on resolving the Amara and Lucifer problems.

[catrox14]

 

It wasn't one of the best episodes, but it was ok.  I didn't think Dean was specifically trying to kill himself.  I just think that when the girl mentioned what her mother always said, "death isn't the end", he got his brilliant idea to have another face to face with Billy to save Sam.

 

 

I so was focused on Dean taking the pills during the first watch that I missed that wasn't when Dean wanted to die. Not really.  

 

It was when he was kneeling by Sam's lifeless  body.  Corbin and Michelle were shouting the werewolves were coming and Dean said "Let em come"  which was reminiscent of 'LET IT END!" in 2.22. 

 

 

DEAN: Let 'em come.

MICHELLE:  No. What?

CORBIN: He wants to stay.

MICHELLE:  No, you can't!

CORBIN:  Hey, hey, you stay, you fight, you die.

 

 

For me it was all on Dean's face.  He was not refuting or denying anything. He knew he was going to die, and IMO he welcomed it.  That's why I'm calling it suicide by werewolf. He can die in battle and it's not him actively committing suicide. It's dying in battle because Sam was dead.

 

Man, this episode is really depressing in the end.

Edited April 1, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

I think Dean would never admit he's suicidal.  Somehow, I think he's compartmentalized "going out in a blaze of glory" versus "suicide".  That doesn't meant I'm disagreeing with your interpretation catrox.  It just means that while I can see your POV, I don't think Dean would own up to it even if he was feeling that way.

 

There's a fine line between reckless/impulsive and suicidal. I think Dean knows recklessness got him the Mark of Cain, but his "give a shit" is zip if Sam dies. 

 

And while I also think the couple thought staying was suicidal, the truth is... half-dead Sam was able to kill them single-handedly.  If it was JUST Sam's body, Dean would not be leaving and may have killed the two just as easy. It was only because he was avoiding collateral damage (the couple) that he left IMO. 

 

Rambling now..... moving on...

 

Gah. The reality fails were too much for me this time.
 

 

I think that's a fair criticism.  I'm willing to let Berens/Dabb have a partial-mulligan on the reality!fail because I think they were going for a "point", but those fails DID bother me quite a bit in real time. 

[catrox14]

 

I think Dean would never admit he's suicidal.  Somehow, I think he's compartmentalized "going out in a blaze of glory" versus "suicide".  That doesn't meant I'm disagreeing with your interpretation catrox.  It just means that while I can see your POV, I don't think Dean would own up to it even if he was feeling that way.

 

 

It's not like Dean was sitting around waiting for the right moment to off himself or had been considering it for a long time. May saying "Dean wanted to die" is not really accurate.  It's more correct to say that 'Dean didn't want to live" . 

 

It seems like semantics but it's really not.  They are different frames of mind. Many completed suicides are really because a person is so bereft in a moment in time, and they just can't tolerate the pain or sorrow and they make a choice to stop that pain.  I think that is what Dean did there.

 

This was essentially sudden grief and loss. Even though Dean has always thought they would die bloody or thinking he was ready to watch Sam die...he's not.  I think Dean had a moment of "I cannot live with Sam dead".  So I retract that Dean wanted to die, he just didn't want to live without Sam.

Edited April 1, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

ETA:  That said, the end result is that in that moment Dean was suicidal whether he understands it or not.  Which IN NO WAY means that I think Dean was weak or horrible or selfish. I just want to be clear. I have lots of opinions on suicide and depression and none of those include judgment or condemnation or thinking someone is selfish for having a pain so profound they can no longer bear to live with it.

 

I did think something WAS different about Dean by the end of the episode. Like he was starting to realize something about himself.

[rue721]

Yet another great episode, I think. Very atmospheric, very creepy. I loved the "destructive love" overtones (with regard to both the husband/wife and to Sam/Dean) that stayed juuuuuust this side of campy. And I'm still really enjoying how much physically darker, smaller, and grittier the show looks this year than it has for quite a while.

 

Per usual, the guest stars were also pretty great. Even the husband, who seemed like just the right mixture of putz and monster.

 

My favorite moment was when Sam was really badly hurt in the cabin, and the husband started talking about how they needed to leave him for their own good, and Dean immediately gave him an enormous shove.

 

The first thing I thought of when Sam woke up while Dean was dying was "Romeo and Juliet".

 

Me, too! It actually was what started getting me legitimately worried about one/both of them dying, because I was like, OMFG I know this play -- and it ends BADLY!

 

I just love that the writers threw what HAD to have been a homage in there. It's weird, but it works anyway. I love those little touches. They're what make a show for me.

 

Dean did tell Billie that Sam had to live to defeat the Darkness, which she scoffed at and didn't seem to care about.  Which I thought was odd..Like why was she so cavalier about it? 

 

When he left Sam, I don't think he fully believed or accept he was dead. Not uncommon for grief. But then when he woke up at the hospital after being tased was IMO when Sam being dead was a real thing for Dean....until Michelle said death wasn't the end. At that point, IMO he was so messed up and grief stricken he was going to do whatever... pretty much like he did in All Hell Breaks Loose pt 2. 

 

At this point Sam's death just triggers his default setting of 'Save Sammy'. It's pathological.

 

I think when it comes to Amara, Billie basically feels like, "pfffft, not my circus, not my monkeys."

 

I didn't have a problem with Dean's reaction to Sam's death, because it seemed to me like he was just in shock. He was calmly talking to Sam's corpse in the cabin, and then arguing with the Ranger about going back to "his brother," like it wasn't really registering with him that Sam was dead. I agree that it seemed like it was starting to sink in once he got to the hospital, though, and that pretty much as soon as he really understood that Sam was dead, he was off to the medicine cabinet to kill himself.

 

Honestly, that scene was he was downing the pills was pretty scary. It did seem like he had a death wish, because it was so rash. I think the reason that Dean went that route was part him feeling invincible (understandably. I mean, Sam and Dean have both died A LOT), part him not being able to think very clearly (because of the concussion and shock), and part actual despair.

 

I think Dean was ashamed of what he did and that's why he didn't tell Sam.

 

Yeah, I agree.

Edited April 1, 2016 by rue721

[mertensia]

I liked this episode quite a bit.

Also my impression was that Sam did die but when Sam described what happened to himself the doctors threw out random words to explain it because they were clueless.

I do like that Billie's attitude is all "time to reap a Winchester. Finally."

There were some very nice little things- like Michelle telling Dean they'd told her a half-hour earlier that she could leave and she was still just sitting there.

Also I learned if your name is Corbin you are dead by the end of the episode. Charlies die too.

[DittyDotDot]

Maybe it's just sleep deprivation, but this episode felt rather pointless to me today. I mean, sure, they wanted to let us know the Empty is real, but I already knew that. And, sure, Dean doesn't want to live without his brother, but I already knew that, too. Adding to the list of other things I already knew: Billie would not save either Winchester; Sam would not be dead by the end of this episode; Dean would not be dead by the end of the episode; the husband had been bit and would most likely be dead by the end of the episode.

 

I'm just going to point to the ongoing brain damage issues as to the how of it all and leave it at that. It's probably better for my mental health that way.

 

 

I really liked Michelle (where have I seen her before?).

 

I thought the same thing too, but I looked it up and still not sure. Looks like she was a regular on Alphas, though, but I don't remember her. 

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2338525/?ref_=tt_cl_t4

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

RIGHT??? I mean come on!! They still have that damn grenade launcher they haven't used.  Maybe Dean just forgot and there are some throwing stars buried in the very back of the trunk

 

I think in this case, Dean wasn't trying to save Sam. He was trying to kill himself to be with Sam. That's why he didn't try CPR etc. Dean was done IMO. He was out of moves, Sam was dead. He doesn't think Cas can be saved.  He thinks he's doomed. If he dies, he knows he's going to the Empty and as long as Sam is there...I think that was all he cared about. Truly.

 

I don't know why the 'saving people' snapped him out of that moment but it did.

 

It really does bother me that the show ....thus far hasn't and maybe they still will...address that Dean was blatantly suicidal in this episode. 

I agree that at the moment in the cabin when he said let them come he didn't care if he lived our died. However I think when he took the pills he wasn't suicidal-he took the kind of  pills that would give them a chance to revive him and he set up Michelle to go get help and save him. I do think he is depressed and starting to feel hopeless and Sam feels that, that's why hes dragging him on a hunt and joking about camping and stuff.

[sarthaz]

I think Dean would never admit he's suicidal.  Somehow, I think he's compartmentalized "going out in a blaze of glory" versus "suicide".  That doesn't meant I'm disagreeing with your interpretation catrox.  It just means that while I can see your POV, I don't think Dean would own up to it even if he was feeling that way.

 

There's a fine line between reckless/impulsive and suicidal. I think Dean knows recklessness got him the Mark of Cain, but his "give a shit" is zip if Sam dies. 

 

I almost responded this same thing last night and then decided not to.  Basically, I agree with you, but I don't dismiss catrox's POV.  For me, I felt Dean's actions were reckless but not suicidal.  When he said, "let 'em come", I was scared for the werewolves and then the couple, not Dean.  Even without the Mark, a focused post-Purgatory Dean is an instrument of destruction.  I took that scene as, "My brother's dead, and everyone else but me is about to be as well."  Then he snapped out of it and decided to save the couple, because they surely would have perished as he exacted his revenge on the incoming wolves.  And again with the pills, I thought he was reckless, but not suicidal.  I like what rue says about him feeling invincible.  He had a plan (a stupid, reckless plan).  If Freddy Krueger can bring him back to life, why can't Dr. Quinn, Urgent Care Woman.  Anyway, my takeaway from this mostly wasted episode is that the stakes are for realzies as we head down the home stretch of this season.

[DittyDotDot]

I agree that at the moment in the cabin when he said let them come he didn't care if he lived our died. However I think when he took the pills he wasn't suicidal-he took the kind of  pills that would give them a chance to revive him and he set up Michelle to go get help and save him. I do think he is depressed and starting to feel hopeless and Sam feels that, that's why hes dragging him on a hunt and joking about camping and stuff.

 

Yeah, the moment in the cabin was Dean without a brother and without a plan. Desperation and grief made him do the go to, "Doesn't matter what happens to me now; hopefully I can take out a monster on my own way out." In the hospital, though, he had a plan. He knew it was risky and he might not come back from it, but I didn't think he was actually committing suicide at that point. 

[dragonsbite]

So with this episode and last week's, we've had these concepts of The Empty, The Void, and The Darkness thrown at us. I'm wondering if they're related:

 

• The Empty - where a Reaper places a soul to ensure that the person can't ever come back/ be reborn/ whatever. While there, are you aware of your loss? Do you feel anything while there? I assume this is outside space and time.

 

• The Void - where a Souleater chews your soul like a cow chews cud for all eternity. And it's outside space and time. You're definitely aware that you're stuck in this place, and probably miserable about it.

 

• The Darkness - where Amara (God's sister) rules the universe and holds everyone's souls in her pocket. Where you feel "your bliss". But are good people screaming inside their heads the whole time or are they truly happy? And if they're happy/blissful, would The Darkness be any different than God's "heaven"?

 

The brothers now know a spell to escape The Void -- a spell that also closes the trap to prevent the Souleater from capturing people again. Was that foreshadowing for a Get-out-of-Darkness or Get-out-of-Void spell? And would that spell also stop the Reapers or Amara from place more souls in the Void or Darkness, respectively?

 

I have more thoughts about this episode in particular, which I'll place in a separate post.

Edited April 1, 2016 by dragonsbite

[rue721]

Maybe it's just sleep deprivation, but this episode felt rather pointless to me today. I mean, sure, they wanted to let us know the Empty is real, but I already knew that. And, sure, Dean doesn't want to live without his brother, but I already knew that, too. Adding to the list of other things I already knew: Billie would not save either Winchester; Sam would not be dead by the end of this episode; Dean would not be dead by the end of the episode; the husband had been bit and would most likely be dead by the end of the episode.

 

I agree that this episode didn't further the mytharc much/at all. Personally, I never really care about the mytharc, though, so that doesn't bother me at all. The less time wasted on that bullshit the better imo. (YMMV -- I know that's probably a big UO!). Anyway, I did think that this episode was pretty good w/r/t characterization, though.

 

In the past, whenever a big threat took Sam out, Sam has been more-or-less helpless (i.e., Samseled) and Dean has been too devastated/focused on Sam to keep his head in the game. But apparently, the guys have changed. This time, Sam fought his way back and saved himself (and Dean, eventually) -- without any peptalks or even much practical help from Dean (unlike during the Trials in S8, for example) and without relying on any supernatural powers (like demon blood, for example). Sam rescued himself this time, and he managed to do it just by being incredible tough. And Dean kept taking care of business while processing what was happening with Sam, instead of just shutting down (unlike wayyyyy back in S2, for example). He was able to compartmentalize and keep his focus on the specific job/mission better than he's been able to in the past. He stayed focused on getting the couple out of the wilderness and didn't start to freak out until he knew they were safe at the clinic.

 

Even when he was making rash/reckless decisions like to take all those pills and try to deal with the Reaper, he seemed to be doing it in an attempt to keep fighting/moving forward, and not as a way of throwing in the towel or throwing his life/soul away. I think he honestly didn't believe that he was killing himself when he was taking the pills -- THAT is actually what made that scene so scary, imo. He didn't seem to be thinking that clearly -- he'd nearly gotten into a physical fight with the husband and had only stopped because Sam (who was gone now!) calmed him down, he'd been in a daze since finding Sam's body, he'd had a pretty bad physical altercation with the ranger, the doctor had just said he had a nasty concussion...and here he was doing an incredibly dangerous thing without thinking twice about it. It was like there was no voice of reason to hold him back -- he was completely uninhibited. The way he brushed off Michelle's weak, "you don't have to do this," really drove that home imo. THIS was the same guy who said, "come and get me!" to the Soul Eater and "let them come!" about the werewolves. There was just no caution or instinct for self-preservation there, and not in a good way. But I don't think it was actually a death wish, I think it was more like that "bezerker" feeling that comes out when you're really just like FUCK THIS WE'RE NOT GOING DOWN.

 

I think years ago, he made that Crossroads deal because he was very angry with himself and because he needed Sam back. This time, I think he was ready to kill himself or make a deal or whatever else because he still felt that he was in the thick of the fight and he was ready to use whatever tactic at his disposal that he thought was most likely to work. He even told Billie that he couldn't have Sam die because he needed him to fight the Darkness. I think that OF COURSE he was also bereft, because who wouldn't be, and part of why he wasn't thinking clearly and was willing to do something as crazy as kill himself with pills was because of how bereft he was -- but I think that another big part of why he wasn't thinking clearly is because he was in fight-to-the-death mode and wasn't going to fold just because the stakes got raised. In that sense, I think this episode highlighted how Sam grounds Dean, and I think that's a change, because the show has traditionally gone the other way.

 

And I think this episode also highlighted how much they HAVEN'T changed, and are still fundamentally the same guys as they were way back in the beginning of the show -- which is the part that I personally really enjoyed, because I really liked those guys! They stuck to very human, knowledge/experienced-based ways of doing things, for the most part. Even when Dean did try to get supernatural help and make that deal with Billie, he killed himself by OD-ing on pills right there at the clinic and figured on (and was) brought back by a doctor just doing regular doctor stuff. The big threats to Sam were a gunshot wound and a selfish psycho, not anything all that exotic. And most of all, they were saving this couple from werewolves just because they save people for a living, and were like FUCK THAT NOBODY GETS LEFT BEHIND because they're basically good, caring people.

 

I think the point of all that was to really emphasize how human the guys are (again). Dean isn't a MoC-powered Knight of Hell demon creep anymore , and Sam isn't a blood-eating Lucifer vessel anymore; they're back to having normal-people personalities, feelings, and relationships. YMMV of course, but I absolutely LOVE that. I have missed that so much!

 

I agree that at the moment in the cabin when he said let them come he didn't care if he lived our died. However I think when he took the pills he wasn't suicidal-he took the kind of  pills that would give them a chance to revive him and he set up Michelle to go get help and save him. I do think he is depressed and starting to feel hopeless and Sam feels that, that's why hes dragging him on a hunt and joking about camping and stuff.

 

I don't really think that Dean is hopeless or apathetic anymore. I think he has lost sight of what has grounded him in the past, though -- stuff like family, traditions, regular life stuff like that -- because he's too focused on the big picture. He seems alienated. How many times this season have other people had to tell him how he was feeling, and then his response has been to look shocked or nonplussed or freaked out? I think he honestly has no idea what he's feeling because he's ignoring that stuff anyway. To me, it seems like he's so focused on the big picture that he's seeing everything in terms of how it/they fit into it, and has lost sight of his own, personal point-of-view.

 

Like with taking the pills; I think he decided that the tactic of making a deal with a Reaper was worth it, not just because he cares about Sam, but also because Sam is integral to his strategy for taking out the Darkness. I don't think he was necessarily paying a lot of attention to his personal feelings about Sam right then (not consciously anyway), and I don't think he paid ANY attention to whatever personal feelings he had about OD-ing himself. I mean, he didn't hesitate for a second to swallow the pills down, and it took him quite a while to start getting upset at seeing his own body seizing on the ground. It was Sam and then the doctor who were worried about his physical safety and broke up fights between him and the husband or him and the cop at the clinic, he didn't seem to give a fuck. I don't think that was a death wish so much as him being really alienated from himself.

 

I think Sam is trying to make their lives as "normal" (for them, anyway) as possible, to try and bring Dean back to himself. He keeps being like, "remember how you used to like XYZ?" "remember how we used to do ABC?" "let's look at this as a bonding activity," etc etc etc. To me, that's exactly how Sam framed this hunting/camping trip to take out the werewolves. In that sense, this episode was like Wendigo with the roles reversed, imo. In Wendigo, Sam remembered how at home he felt hunting with Dean and what exactly "the family business" was, and I think that he was trying to do the same thing for Dean in this episode. But I don't think it really worked out.

 

That's not revelatory or anything, so I get how people could be like, "ugh, why are we retreading THIS old ground." I mean, that's fair. I personally just tend to like that sort of thing, though, and I'm A-OK with character exploration without any particular character growth or without it being part of some linear progression, though. YMMV.

[Aeryn13]

 

I think the point of all that was to really emphasize how human the guys are (again).

 

They have worked very hard to make Sam a God basically. He is super saintly, super smart, iron-willed and super tough. I thought it was a wonder that he didn`t do backflips into the hospital and that Dean wasn`t shown cowering on the floor and whimpering for help. The episode just stopped short (very short) of doing that. At this point I feel Sam is like a Chuck Norris joke written into a character. He is not eating honey, he chews bees.    

 

Dean is coming off a dark arc with the Mark of Cain but at least during that time he was strong. Now they are going out of their way to show him as weak physically and emotionally. And lets not forget selfish. That`s why Billie regurgitated that part of the Purge speech. Other characters can release primoridial evils due to rescuing someone but I don`t hear them getting those speeches. I can only wonder when they feel Dean is thouroughly destroyed enough and just stop and ignore him completely. 

 

After the imaginary friends episode and the mid-Season Opener, this one marks the third episode this Season I truly and utterly hated. Lots of others were just meh to okay but this one required brain bleach. 

Edited April 1, 2016 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

I agree that this episode didn't further the mytharc much/at all. Personally, I never really care about the mytharc, though, so that doesn't bother me at all. The less time wasted on that bullshit the better imo. (YMMV -- I know that's probably a big UO!). Anyway, I did think that this episode was pretty good w/r/t characterization, though.

 

I don't care about the myth arcs either and my comment wasn't about the myth arc. The characterizations were fine; it's just territory we've covered so many times before that I'm left feeling like they're just wasting time till we get to the end. I'm totally cool with character exploration, I'm just not sure what there is to discover in a territory that's been charted and mapped countless times previously. But that's the problem with a show in it's 11th season and only two main characters--there's really not much we don't already know about these two guys at this point. There really isn't much character exploration that wouldn't feel redundant, IMO. 

 

However, if I hadn't already known: Sam wouldn't be dead by the end of the episode; Billie wasn't going to make a deal with Dean; Dean wasn't going to be dead by the end of the episode; or that the husband had been bit (or that the bartender was a one of the baddies) from the onset, it might not have felt so pointless. I just didn't feel the tension, urgency or the emotion of any of it because I was a step or two ahead of them this time. I actually was hoping to be wrong about the husband so there would be at least one surprise in the episode. Sadly it was just not to be, though.

 

But, I wouldn't say the episode was bad per se--despite all the plot contrivances, it wasn't offensive, the characters felt true to who they are, it was well shot and the guest stars were good--just nothing about it grabbed me, unfortunately. But I take joy in knowing others enjoyed it and that's enough for me today. 

Edited April 1, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

 

Like with taking the pills; I think he decided that the tactic of making a deal with a Reaper was worth it, not just because he cares about Sam, but also because Sam is integral to his strategy for taking out the Darkness.

 

I don't think the Darkness was a thought in Dean's mind once Sam was shot. I mean if she was, why didn't he just call on her, or pray to her or whatever to save Sam.  When he made the decision to take the pills, his decision was solely to get Sam back. FOR HIM. And for Sam. I don't think it was because Sam had to save the world. 

 

If everything stayed the same and the Darkness wasn't a thing and Death wasn't dead, Dean would  would have taken the pills to get Death to come to him. He would have asked for Death to make a deal to save Sam.  The fight against the Darkness was a convenient excuse because he figured Billie would be more concerned about the universe surviving and that Sam had to be there for that. Billie knew it was bullshit because he ultimately just begged for Sam's life.

Edited April 1, 2016 by catrox14

[rue721]

I actually was hoping to be wrong about the husband so there would be at least one surprise in the episode.

 

I think the surprise about the husband was that he was a pretty good husband even when he was a werewolf psycho killer. I mean, he was still like, "LOVE YOU BABY!" even when he was standing there with his hand poking out of somebody's chest. Loyal, affectionate, caring, calm/respectful toward his wife even if he was brutally murdering everyone else...Idk, he seemed on point when it came to the relationship stuff, at least! I liked that about him and thought it was pretty funny.

 

Also pretty much the norm for SPN, I guess. That weird werepire woman was the same way with her boyfriend-who-wouldn't-die back in Baby.

 

Like I said, I like that offbeat, minor stuff. YMMV. I know other people don't get as much delight out of it as I do!

 

As for the Winchesters dying -- for quite a while during the episode, I was seriously irritated that the show was even bothering to try to create tension with the stars' deaths because COME ON. But honestly, Sam's perpetually oozing wound and suffocation, and Dean seizing in the clinic, were both pretty awful to me because they just looked like they hurt and the show just kept linnnnnnnngering over them like it hasn't done in a while. I will admit that I'm a weenie who hates watching people get hurt so much that I won't watch football, so my bar is probably really low. But that, in combination with the Romeo & Juliet tragic overtones, and the show being like "death isn't the end!" and reminding us of Bobby and Lucifer and that this show is actually really big on stories that take place in the afterlife, actually made me wonder if they were going to have either/both of the brothers die and continue the season in heaven or hell. Again, likely me being gullible and I completely get why others weren't feeling the tension, but I honestly started to by about mid-way through!

 

OMFG WHY AM I NOT WORKING. Will be back tonight, lol.

[rue721]

I don't think the Darkness was a thought in Dean's mind once Sam was shot. I mean if she was, why didn't he just call on her, or pray to her or whatever to save Sam.  When he made the decision to take the pills, his decision was solely to get Sam back. FOR HIM. And for Sam. I don't think it was because Sam had to save the world. 

 

If everything stayed the same and the Darkness wasn't a thing and Death wasn't dead, Dean would  would have taken the pills to get Death to come to him. He would have asked for Death to make a deal to save Sam.  The fight against the Darkness was a convenient excuse because he figured Billie would be more concerned about the universe surviving and that Sam had to be there for that. Billie knew it was bullshit because he ultimately just begged for Sam's life.

 

If Dean was using the fight against the Darkness as a justification to Billie as to why Sam needed to be saved, then he by definition was at least giving a thought to the Darkness and that fight. And I think that it was partly an angle he was playing to persuade Billie, but I don't think it was JUST an angle. I think he really was thinking that he couldn't lose Sam in the fight for practical/mission-based reasons, not just because he didn't want to.

 

And he was right, in that if Sam was done for, he (and the world) were basically done for, too, because there's no way he can stop the Darkness alone. He was also literally proven right within the episode that he needs Sam for very concrete, hunting-based reasons, because at the end, Sam actually did literally, physically save him.

 

Dean was upset, but he still kept his eyes on the prize through nearly the whole episode. That's a big change imo, but also one that makes sense for him.

 

OK NOW I'M REALLY GOING :)

[Aeryn13]

 

And he was right, in that if Sam was done for, he (and the world) were basically done for, too, because there's no way he can stop the Darkness alone.

 

Sam is (not yet) the Chosen One to save the universe again. What can he do against the Darkness as of this point? Absolutely nothing. Maybe with another God-McGuffin weapon but it`s not like any other person couldn`t use that one either. Dean has been shown to overcome their bond easily enough in the past, if you gave one to him, I`d say he actually has the best shot because at least there is a chance Amara would wait and talk to him. Sam, she could kill on the spot. As anyone else really. 

 

In lieu of a feasible weapon against Amara, the world is no more or less done for with or without Sam. 

[DittyDotDot]

Sorry rue, you can't get away that easily! ;)

 

...and the show being like "death isn't the end!" and reminding us of Bobby and Lucifer and that this show is actually really big on stories that take place in the afterlife, actually made me wonder if they were going to have either/both of the brothers die and continue the season in heaven or hell. Again, likely me being gullible...

 

Taken to the spec thread...whoooosh...

[catrox14]

 

If Dean was using the fight against the Darkness as a justification to Billie as to why Sam needed to be saved, then he by definition was at least giving a thought to the Darkness and that fight. And I think that it was partly an angle he was playing to persuade Billie.

 

 

I interpreted you post as suggesting that saving Sam was because of Dean's bigger strategy to defeat the Darkness and that was why he wanted Sam saved.

 

I'm talking about Dean's motivation and reason for summoning Billie in the first place and the fight against the Darkness was not the motivation or reason.  Dean is a tactician. He thinks on his feet.

 

I don't think he was sitting there in the hospital thinking 'OH NO THE WORLD IS AT STAKE NOW" because Sam is dead. I think he was thinking HIS world is over. IMO it was only once he got the notion to summon Billie via pill popping he realized he had to give her a reason, 'Non- Because Sam is my brother and I can't live without him' division.   Invoking Sam as the person to kill the Darkness was just a tactic.

[Diane]

If Dean was using the fight against the Darkness as a justification to Billie as to why Sam needed to be saved, then he by definition was at least giving a thought to the Darkness and that fight. And I think that it was partly an angle he was playing to persuade Billie, but I don't think it was JUST an angle. I think he really was thinking that he couldn't lose Sam in the fight for practical/mission-based reasons, not just because he didn't want to.

 

And he was right, in that if Sam was done for, he (and the world) were basically done for, too, because there's no way he can stop the Darkness alone. He was also literally proven right within the episode that he needs Sam for very concrete, hunting-based reasons, because at the end, Sam actually did literally, physically save him.

 

Dean was upset, but he still kept his eyes on the prize through nearly the whole episode. That's a big change imo, but also one that makes sense for him.

 

OK NOW I'M REALLY GOING :)

 

This I agree with, after re watching, I am just not seeing that Dean was trying to commit suicide.  He was going to summon Billie to save Sam, he told Michelle to get the doctor and even yelled at them to turn him over.  YMMV

[catrox14]

As an aside, that nitpick we all had about 'For missing Hikers"?  We owe the prop people an apology because on Sam's tablet the headline read "Search Continues For Missing Hikers".  We should have known better than to doubt the prop people on this show!

 

Dean did have a plan to save Sam, no one is really disputing that. But IMO he was only prepared to live if Sam was alive IMO. I think if Billie had said no, and she said that Sam had died and she wouldn't deal, IMO Dean would not have fought to stay alive.   That to me is essentially passive suicide. 

Edited April 1, 2016 by catrox14

[FlickChick]

A little off-topic, but what I think is sad reading all this, and actually while I was watching as well, is that these actors are actively involved in campaigns to help people with depression/unhealthy (or perhaps suicidal) feelings. When Dean downed all those pills for whatever reason he was supposed to be feeling, I thought, my Lord, there are teens out there watching this. The actors can only say/do what's on the page, so I'm not blaming them. But perhaps the writers should have rethought this entire episode. JMO.

[MysteryGuest]

I think when Dean said "let them come" about the werewolves, he was just in full-on revenge mode, and wanted to take them out for killing Sam.  Did he necessarily care if he survived...probably not, but again, I don't think he was thinking about dying himself at the time.  I think he just wanted to kill them all with his bare hands (or silver knife, as the case may be).  

 

I'm also not sure he thinks of Amara as someone who's going to come to his rescue in a time of crisis.  She's the enemy, and he's freaked out about his attraction to her, but I can't see him praying to her to save Sam.  That would really shock me.

 

I agree with others that the episode covered absolutely no new ground.  I am also ok with the fact that it didn't address the main story arcs too much, but I wish they had made the werewolves a bit more interesting.  I'm on record as someone who would welcome more MOTW episodes, but I absolutely need those monsters to be more fleshed out as characters.  Otherwise, the story just gets boring.

Edited April 1, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

For me, Jensen was perfect in this episode and I can see why others may not agree with me because IMO much of Dean's state of mind and heart and psyche was on Dean's face and his body language.

 

I mentioned upthread it was like AHBL2 with 'Let it End!". Just to expand on that back then Dean clearly didn't care if he lived or died. And he didn't care if the world ended then including himself. He didn't care about anything. The only thing IMO that snapped him out of it then was Bobby's presence.  But even that wasn't enough to salve his destroyed psyche and heart he still sold his soul for Sam. 

 

I saw basically the same thing here. Only this time he wasn't going to make a deal. Not at first. He was going to accept Sam's death but as he said before "He can't live with Sam dead".  Sure, he was going to take out a few werewolves but he was outnumbered and he knew it. I don't believe he had any intention of leaving that cabin alive. He wasn't sacrificing for the greater good there because he told Michelle and Corbin to leave without him. He didn't even seem to consider he might have been turned vs dying.

 

Bottom line for me. He no longer cared about surviving. It was going to be a smidgen of vengeance and his death. So yeah I think he was thinking about dying or at least not living anymore. 

 

The pill taking was a less overt display of his grief and sadness. But even there, he wasn't really planning on coming back IMO if Sam didn't come back. The resuscitation was in case he got the deal for Sam first. And if that failed he was trading himself.

 

I do think like the idea that  Billie might have been passively helping Dean to survive because she did tell him about Sam being alive before she reaped him. Maybe that gave Dean the impetus to fight back. I dunno.

Edited April 1, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

A little off-topic, but what I think is sad reading all this, and actually while I was watching as well, is that these actors are actively involved in campaigns to help people with depression/unhealthy (or perhaps suicidal) feelings. When Dean downed all those pills for whatever reason he was supposed to be feeling, I thought, my Lord, there are teens out there watching this. The actors can only say/do what's on the page, so I'm not blaming them. But perhaps the writers should have rethought this entire episode. JMO.

 

I wish they would have acknowledged with a PSA about it or just flashed a number to a support group or something.

[rue721]

I don't think he was sitting there in the hospital thinking 'OH NO THE WORLD IS AT STAKE NOW" because Sam is dead. I think he was thinking HIS world is over. IMO it was only once he got the notion to summon Billie via pill popping he realized he had to give her a reason, 'Non- Because Sam is my brother and I can't live without him' division.   Invoking Sam as the person to kill the Darkness was just a tactic.

 

I actually think he *was* thinking the world was at stake; I think he was genuinely worried about the people who would die because of Sam's death. In this episode, Dean repeatedly chose saving other people over saving Sam. He could have finished patching up Sam's bullet wound, but he chose to help Michelle and treat her wrist. He could have stayed with Sam's corpse, but he chose to get Michelle and Corbin to safety. Then, when he went to Billie, he said that Sam was a necessary part of his strategy for taking out the Darkness, and so Sam couldn't die. I mean, obviously he loves Sam, too, and ALSO doesn't want his brother to die! But I think that he probably wouldn't have gone to Billie if it were just about him and his feelings. He was constantly ignoring his own pain or danger throughout this episode, so why would his grief be any different? I think that what compelled him to go so far as to die and try to cut a deal with a reaper was the knowledge that he and Sam do have somewhat of a chance against the Darkness (or whatever/whoever) as a team, but individually, they'd each be up shit creek -- so if Sam were dead and the Winchester "team" kaput, that would mean A LOT of people weren't getting saved who could have been saved if Sam had lived.

 

This is a sort of dark interpretation, but I think that at the end, when Dean was saying that he knew that Sam was alive the whole time (when he pretty clearly didn't, at least until Billie told him so), it was an attempt to justify (to himself) his own ability to soldier on, ignore his grief, and keep his eyes on the bigger picture even in the face of Sam's death. I don't think that Dean is hardened and cold relative to any given person, but I do think he's hardened and cold compared to how he was in S2 or whenever, and I think that his relatively calm, strategic response to Sam's death might have shaken him up a little, and revealed something about him to himself that he hadn't really thought before.

 

SueB said earlier that Dean said* that he had thought Sam was dead because he was ashamed of himself, and I think that's true. But I think the reason WHY he was ashamed of himself could have been from any number of different things. From the shame of doing something as rash as swallowing a handful of pills and trying to cut another deal, to the shame of NOT being as heartbroken and devastated by the death (on a personal level) as he would have been in the past.

 

I think that scene of Dean saying he knew Sam was alive is a parallel to Sam saying that Dean's vision of Sam's corpse in the Soul Eaters nest was comforting.

 

*Sorry, had a typo that completely changed the meaning of the sentence. FIXED NOW :)

Edited April 2, 2016 by rue721

[sarthaz]

Then, when he went to Billie, he said that Sam was a necessary part of his strategy for taking out the Darkness, and so Sam couldn't die. I mean, obviously he loves Sam, too, and ALSO doesn't want his brother to die! But I think that he probably wouldn't have gone to Billie if it were just about him and his feelings. He was constantly ignoring his own pain or danger throughout this episode, so why would his grief be any different? I think that what compelled him to go so far as to die and try to cut a deal with a reaper was the knowledge that he and Sam do have somewhat of a chance against the Darkness (or whatever/whoever) as a team, but individually, they'd each be up shit creek -- so if Sam were dead and the Winchester "team" kaput, that would mean A LOT of people weren't getting saved who could have been saved if Sam had lived.

 

I read that scene differently.  Dean was desperately bluffing to Billie because he had no other play.  After that, his last ditch is to offer himself in exchange (classic Dean).

 

DEAN: Sam's the only one who can stop the Darkness.

BILLIE: How's that?

DEAN: (wry you-got-me grin)

 

I kinda thought the next logical step for Dean was to say, "You're right. I have no idea. But one of us is going to stop the Darkness, and if Sam's dead, I give up." To which Billie asks Dean if he's really going to let all of existence disappear because he's a crybaby.  And then you have a genuine game of chicken that ultimately ends the same way.  I thought the writers had Dean give up on that strategy a little early.  Sure, he's bluffing about Sam being able to stop the Darkness, and he's lying about giving a shit (in that moment) because he knows Billie might actually care about her own life; but it is true that Sam's death would seriously diminish their ability to stop the Darkness.  In fact, Sam's death might lead Dean to "Star Trek: The Motion Picture this bitch" and join with Amara Decker/V-Ger style.  Anyway, appealing to Billie's sense of self-preservation seemed like the right tactic; I just wish he'd pushed it further.  In any case, I don't think Dean's motivation was anywhere other than saving his brother because feelings.

[catrox14]

 

Jensen ad lib. We even scripted a frustrated ad lib there cuz we knew he’d come up with something great.

—   Robert Berens when asked if Dean attacking the tree was scripted. x (via lipglosskaz)

 

Tidbit about the episode. 

 

I knew that was Jensen ad lib. LOL.

[SueB]

SueB said earlier that Dean said* that he had thought Sam was dead because he was ashamed of himself, and I think that's true. But I think the reason WHY he was ashamed of himself could have been from any number of different things. From the shame of doing something as rash as swallowing a handful of pills and trying to cut another deal, to the shame of NOT being as heartbroken and devastated by the death (on a personal level) as he would have been in the past.

 

 

italics are mine: I must have fumbled the ball on this one.  I meant that Dean was ashamed that he did something rash, something that perhaps put the world at greater risk (by potentially taking out BOTH Winchesters who are the only hunters "working" the Darkness problem).

 

Having said this, I now believe that Dean was reckless and the writers/show didn't see it as an act of suicide (hence not cluing in that a warning was required).  Yes, the imagery of the hero downing a bottle of pills is EASILY a trigger.  But I think they counted on the audience seeing it as a "do-it-yourself-Dr.-Kruger-manuever". Which leads me to:

 

Common sense to one man is a revelation to another. --- Mark Twain

 

They just weren't thinking of the potential triggering.  I can tell you that the cast was as traumatized as we were (see Jensen Ackles DCCon Main Panel comments),  It went pretty damn dark and I don't think they recognized how dark it was until they were in production. 

 

I personally scolded (but in a complementary way) Bobo Berens on how traumatic the episode was for fans and he "liked" the two tweets I sent.  An interesting note that I picked up from a WFB review was that Bobo was taken off of 11.18 to writer 11.22 because Carver was too busy with his pilot.  Which is why it has dual writing credits.  This may also potentially explain why that ending was less than satisfying. 

 

Based on Sam knowing how Dean felt about Amara, I think Sam suspects Dean pulled a "Dean Winchester" (which means some selfless act that was highly risky) and doesn't want to talk about it.  He's not wrong. 

 

 

Finally... on the "nothing happened" complaint.  I think this is a preference issue.  I was breathless the whole damn episode.  Rocking and keening back and forth for quite some time.  That it didn't make an immediately apparent huge mytharc impact is fine by me.  I think they laid groundwork for future callbacks to this episode that WILL be part of the mytharc. 

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

 

Finally... on the "nothing happened" complaint.  I think this is a preference issue.  I was breathless the whole damn episode.  Rocking and keening back and forth for quite some time.  That it didn't make an immediately apparent huge mytharc impact is fine by me.  I think they laid groundwork for future callbacks to this episode that WILL be part of the mytharc

I agree! I was anxious the whole episode!

[Wynne88]

Based on Sam knowing how Dean felt about Amara, I think Sam suspects Dean pulled a "Dean Winchester" (which means some selfless act that was highly risky) and doesn't want to talk about it.  He's not wrong.

 

Based on what Dean did the last time Sam was close to dying, I was surprised that Sam wasn't more paranoid about Dean's actions this time.  Just because he's forgiven Dean for hijacking him with an angel wouldn't mean he's forgotten it.

 

Setting aside some of the WTF moments that others have already mentioned, I thought it was a pretty good episode.  I definitely liked it better on second viewing; not sure why.

[shang yiet]

It's ridiculous that Sam gets a gunshot wound, is strangled and yet he walks out of the hospital acting like he just had his tonsils out. I wanted more emotional repercussions for him, and OK, yes, more Sam point of view. I wanted him more shaken up. What was going through his mind when he was strangled? Did his whole life flash past him? Did he have an afterlife experience?

 

It's only slightly less ridiculous that Dean walks out of the hospital like a drug overdose and seizures are nothing. This show is not Grey's Anatomy, for sure.

[Wynne88]

Don't forget Dean's two broken ribs. When he hopped in the Impala so casually at the end, I was thinking 'wow, that should hurt.'. Guess there was a liberal application of the CW's magic wound cream.

[trxr4kids]

 What was going through his mind when he was strangled? Did his whole life flash past him? Did he have an afterlife experience?

 

He was probably thinking it must be a day ending in y, I mean seriously how many times has he or they, for that matter been strangled? I hope his life didn't flash before his eyes considering it would probably include cage time. Since Sam and Dean both have visited multiple afterlifes, the only thing that might have been entertaining to me would have been a reaper trying to get him to follow it and him saying screw you!