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S05.E15: The Brothers Jones


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This is how paranoid I am about Charming family scenes.

 

I was terrified, absolutely terrified, that David having a grandfather/grandson scene with Henry meant that James had conked him on the head and switched places and was going to give truly stupid, horrible advise that Henry is dumb enough to take to heart.

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This was a weird episode. My expectations were high I guess. I love Hook but the flashback wasn't very exciting. I mean, I liked that they showed he had captain abilities, but Liam wasn't a very sympathetic character. He should've had a better reason to sell souls or not like Emma. I didn't like that Hook didn't believe Emma. It's like Neal and Tamara again. They should've at least make the bond between the brothers look stronger. It's like we're supposed to see it because they say it is. They did a better job at that on 3.05.

I liked Hook and Emma's first scene, very real; but the reunion at the end was kind of underwhelming.  

 

I actually liked Henry's plotline. And David's as well though I could've used a little less kissing with Cruella. 

 

Regina is still being likeable? Can she stay in the Underworld forever? 

 

I like Hades as a villain but that last line was weird said outloud. 

 

 

I was terrified, absolutely terrified, that David having a grandfather/grandson scene with Henry meant that James had conked him on the head and switched places and was going to give truly stupid, horrible advise that Henry is dumb enough to take to heart.

That actually would've been funny as heck, but stupid in the long run so maybe just have it as an extra on the DVD :P 

Edited by MaiLuna
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I thought this was the best episode thus far, but I seem to be in the minority (though really, some people say last week's exercise in unpleasantness was better? At least today's guest star got to move on to the afterlife and not die again.) 

 

The weakest part was the flashback, it was dull (and featured Hades' dreaded blue hair.)  But I liked all of the present-day stuff, and even if people hate him, I for one loved seeing darker shades actually being applied to Henry's character.

Don't get me wrong - I hated Milah's second death, but the episode itself moved along and kept me interested. This episode had none of that. If it was the writing, the acting, I don't know, but I just didn't care at all about Liam, the flashback didn't tell me anything new and dragged, and I would have been happier to watch more of the B plot than the A plot. I was bored for most of the episode, and that's pretty rare for me for a Killian episode, which by contrast was one of 2 good episodes in 4 B. I think I am just nostalgic too, and want this show to be fun again, for a little bit. I am a little tired of the doom and gloom.

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Also, count me as one who doesn't care for young Killian being a screw up. It retcons Good Form too much. Plus. soooo many questions. Such as:

 

How did Killian learn to navigate?

How did he learn to dance? 

How did he learn that fancy handwriting? 

How did he learn sword fighting?

 

It makes so little sense, if they were sold into slavery at such a young age and then went straight from being slaves to being Naval officers, when did he have the time to learn any of the above? This whole season has done such a number on Killian's character.

 

Yeah, I've already decided that this episode basically doesn't exist. The flashbacks don't make sense. I can give him the fancy handwriting, because I think even peasant scrawl was probably pretty fancy-looking. But the rest? Only makes sense to me if a dorky, keener, goody two-shoes teenaged Killian showed up to work, post-slavery, on a Navy ship and he (plus or minus Liam) got taken under some elder official's wing. Said elder official trained the teens in the ways of the ocean/war and turned Killian into the gentleman that he is under all that eyeliner. None of this drunken-loser-already-middle-aged nonsense.

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Also: Hey, strangers who have washed up on this beach under questionable circumstances with a mythical sparkly rock! Come join my crew! I totally trust you completely! 

If I hadn't already known they got into the Navy I would have been worried that officer was going to steal the rock and take the credit for himself. 

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I know it sucked seeing Hook not believe Emma when it came to Liam but Liam did grow up with him plus Killian didn't make fun of Emma and called her jealous or whatever Neal said to her so I can't be to annoyed. Also once Killian found out Liam was lying he got so angry at him because believed hm over Emma.

 

You know I might have liked this episode more if Hook had kind of learned why Emma kept him being the Dark One back in 5A with his brother kind of doing the same with him when they were younger. Liam and Emma basically did the same thing.

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Meh.

Retcon,retcon, retcon.

I just don't buy Liam selling out an entire ship's crew for he and his brother. Nor do I buy the entire crew letting him. What's the point of making former sweet impressionable Killian a drunk and screw up?

And I really don't buy Killian basically breaking up with Emma because his brother didn't approve of her. I didn't like Liam basically changing his mind about her either so that made it ok for Killian to go back to her. The woman has gone to hell for him but he was willing to dump her for his brother? What ever happened "to the end of world of time."?

The Cruella distraction was dumb. No one seems to be missing Robin. I was glad for the Charming/Henry talk even though we know he'll make a wrong decision.

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Finally. ..FINALLY. ..Henry does something clever...writers came up with an actual clever idea!!!! OMG...I just fell off my chair!

Using the pen to reproduce the story Hades tried to hide

.doesn't break the rules ...uses the actual 'good ' guidelines the Author is supposed to work from...Someone actually using ingenuity ....

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What's the point of making former sweet impressionable Killian a drunk and screw up?

 

I think it's because a LOT of people complained that he made the switch to reckless vengeance and piracy way too quickly after his brother's death in "Good Form", to the point where it seemed his whole character just did a complete 180 on the spot.  Establishing that these qualities were already there but suppressed by his hero-worship of Liam and dedication to service in the Navy (until both came to an end) fixes that.  This may not work for everyone, but personally I think it does.

Edited by Mathius
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It makes so little sense, if they were sold into slavery at such a young age and then went straight from being slaves to being Naval officers, when did he have the time to learn any of the above?

That's why I think the flashback would have worked better with teen actors playing the brothers. Then not only is Liam's decision a little more sympathetic (since a teen would be expected to be more impulsive and driven), but the other stuff about their characters makes more sense if they have that much more time for maturing and seasoning in the navy, with some education and social polish. They already seemed to have the shipboard skills (since Killian was able to eyeball the exact amount they were off-course), so they had raw material the navy could have worked with.

 

The age thing isn't helped by the fact that Colin is able to convincingly play much, much younger -- remove the guyliner and it takes a decade or more off him, and he's slightly built enough to look boyish. Put him in the dark, dump a bunch of water on him, and he moves and acts like a much younger person, so you can kind of believe it. But then that means that you have to have an adult actor as his older brother because even as well as Colin plays younger, if you put a real 20-something against him, he'll look older. But the actor they picked for his brother isn't someone who can play younger so well (and then they didn't even bother to change his appearance or spray on some hair color -- shades of Neal again).

 

What's the basis of Killian's hero worship? Is it just needing someone to look up to? We've certainly never seen Liam do anything to deserve it.

We needed some story between "Swan Song" and this to properly set it up -- show us Liam looking after Killian in those early days after they were abandoned, standing up for him against the captain, maybe even taking punishment meant for him or doing extra work when the littler boy just wasn't able to keep up with what was being demanded. That's the sort of thing that might lead to that kind of hero worship, and while I can imagine it, to get to the extreme of this episode, I needed to see more of it.

 

The more I think about it, the less drunken screwup Killian fits. He's talked about finding his way back to the good man he used to be and about how Liam's death sent him into a dark place. Now they're saying he's always struggled with darkness.

 

On the up side, we did get the origin story for this show's real OTP: We saw Killian's first look at the ship that became the Jolly Roger.

 

Also, they're so very far from all the elaborate backstory I imagined for Hook that I can just assign it to an original character and use it in a book, and it won't look remotely like it had its origins in mental fanfic.

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The more I think about it, the less drunken screwup Killian fits. He's talked about finding his way back to the good man he used to be and about how Liam's death sent him into a dark place. Now they're saying he's always struggled with darkness.

 

Not really.  Low self-image, depression, alcoholism, a fiery temper....all human flaws, but not "darkness" like piracy is.

 

Also, he was supposed to still be a "boy" in this flashback, not yet a "man".

 

That's why I think the flashback would have worked better with teen actors playing the brothers.

 

Agreed, that would have helped greatly, since as it stands the flashback was the lowlight of the episode.

Edited by Mathius
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Jul 68, on 27 Mar 2016 - 10:04 PM, said:Jul 68, on 27 Mar 2016 - 10:04 PM, said:

I think Henry wants to be a Hero so that he can live up to the standards that he feels his family has set. They are all (Regina included) heroes in his eyes and are all (generally except Regina) hailed as such. I can see how a teenager in that family would feel an overwhelming pressure to be one.

 

But shouldn't he have learned from the past? He tried to be a hero in 3A and look where that got him. He also made the choice to destroy the quill for a reason. So, why does he make a mature decision in S4B and then he reverts back to 3A? They kind of seem to have him on a merry-go-round like Rumple and Belle.

 

On a sidenote - did anyone else notice that the soundtrack this episode was heavily inspired by Pirates of the Carribean?

Edited by CheshireCat
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We needed some story between "Swan Song" and this to properly set it up -- show us Liam looking after Killian in those early days after they were abandoned, standing up for him against the captain, maybe even taking punishment meant for him or doing extra work when the littler boy just wasn't able to keep up with what was being demanded. That's the sort of thing that might lead to that kind of hero worship, and while I can imagine it, to get to the extreme of this episode, I needed to see more of it.

 

The more I think about it, the less drunken screwup Killian fits. He's talked about finding his way back to the good man he used to be and about how Liam's death sent him into a dark place. Now they're saying he's always struggled with darkness.

 

On the up side, we did get the origin story for this show's real OTP: We saw Killian's first look at the ship that became the Jolly Roger.

Yep, yep, and yep. The look on his face when he saw the ship for the first time was the best part of this episode. 

 

I can see why people side-eye Killian's quick transition from puppy to pirate, but this is too much in the other direction. Show him having a temper, sure, and maybe Liam helping him to keep it under control. Then we could believe that without his brother's steadying influence he easily goes off the deep end. It's the drinking that I really don't like. Hook has always been shown to be a drinker, but not to the point where he loses control of himself. It's hard to be a successful pirate captain if you can't hold your rum. All Blackbeard would've had to do to get his ship is get him drunk and take it. No need to give up the magic bean. 

Edited by profdanglais
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Maybe there are some pencils in the Underworld and they can be used on at least on one of the torn-out pages to form an impression.

 

Hades' blue hair and the green Zelena will make for a very bright episode.

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The more I think about it, the less drunken screwup Killian fits. He's talked about finding his way back to the good man he used to be and about how Liam's death sent him into a dark place. Now they're saying he's always struggled with darkness.

 

On the up side, we did get the origin story for this show's real OTP: We saw Killian's first look at the ship that became the Jolly Roger.

 

Also, they're so very far from all the elaborate backstory I imagined for Hook that I can just assign it to an original character and use it in a book, and it won't look remotely like it had its origins in mental fanfic.

 

Hook went to Eton.  J.M. Barrie said so.  I'm going with the Captain seeing them as officer material and sending them to school.  Fan.  Wanked.

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Also, they're so very far from all the elaborate backstory I imagined for Hook that I can just assign it to an original character and use it in a book, and it won't look remotely like it had its origins in mental fanfic.

You don't know how badly I wanted Captain Silver to be Long John Silver. I'm not sure why this show can't borrow from more pirate tales. Their father sold them to slavery and later they joined the Navy. Nothing special here, folks. You'd think it'd be more elaborate for a main character.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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How convenient that Silver just happened to overhear Hades and Liam's conversation in the dead bar, which Hades even pointed out was totally empty earlier in the episode. Or was that set up by Hades and I missed the explanation? Contrived writing is contrived.

On the up side, we did get the origin story for this show's real OTP: We saw Killian's first look at the ship that became the Jolly Roger.

That was amazing. Love at first sight. 

 

The more I think about it, the less drunken screwup Killian fits. He's talked about finding his way back to the good man he used to be and about how Liam's death sent him into a dark place. Now they're saying he's always struggled with darkness.

I totally agree. It was Killian, not Liam, who was the uptight officer obsessed with honor and good form. Liam just wanted to do the job for the king and go home, not look into the king's plans beyond their orders. I think they were going with the idea of a military career setting a screwup onto the path of the straight and narrow, but I think Killian always being straight laced would have been a better fit. If he was just doing this for Liam, he went too far the other way, because I don't think Liam much cared for his uprightness in Good Form. He rolled his eyes when Killian said, "I'll fight my enemies, but I'll fight fair."

 

One thing it does do is explain that Killian was only in this for Liam, not out of any loyalty to the crown, but again, it was Liam who was all "our king would never lie to us" in Good Form, not Hook. They could have kept Hook's hero worship of Liam without making him a screwup. 

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It was so easy for Emma to heal Hook, so why did they drag him to the cemetery still all battered last week? She couldn't have waved a hand at him on the way there?

.

She was too occupied magicking the blood stains off her pristine white jumper.....
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I was so bored by the Jones Brothers story that this episode really dragged. Bernard is not the best actor and the lines were just really stilted. I'm glad that Hook's going to be over the emo crap though, so this episode wins for that alone.

 

Some notes:

 

- I loved how Emma realized that Liam's a dick and Regina was in complete agreement 30 seconds after meeting him. And then Emma was trying not to tell Hook that Liam is a dick while still trying to subtly tell Hook that Liam's a dick. 

 

- So happy that Emma was totally right about Liam being shady and that instead of pushing Hook on that fact, she tried to discuss it with Liam and get him to come clean to his brother and do what's best for Hook. She tried to get Liam to understand how he was hurting Hook by putting on that unrealistic heroic act. It was nice.

 

- Oh look it's Henry and his hero complex again. Sigh.

 

- Liam was willing to screw over Emma and her entire family to cover up his awfulness. Then he was redeemed because he was willing to sacrifice for Hook - something which he had always done. That doesn't compute. I didn't want Liam to die horribly again, but his ending was all kinds of messed up morality-wise.

 

- More Cruella please!

 

- This week in things that have more screen time than Robin: Everything on screen. Maybe he was finally off looking to make sure Marian isn't suffering in the Underworld?

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- I loved how Emma realized that Liam's a dick and Regina was in complete agreement 30 seconds after meeting him. And then Emma was trying not to tell Hook that Liam is a dick while still trying to subtly tell Hook that Liam's a dick.

That Regina and Emma scene was such a "Tell me I'm not wrong into thinking he's a dick?" "Umm humm girl, he a dick." Regina has just been so likable. See writers, when you tone down the snark Regina can be a likable character and not just someone I love to rag on.

 

Is it me or did Emma looked like she knew who Liam was when he walked in the door? When she looked up she stopped in shocked or maybe that's just how JMO played it. Maybe Hook had a sketch of Liam some where and Emma remembered.

 

Seriously happy Hook's emo is temporary done.

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I loved the episode overall

it help that I was not over spoiler and I keep m'y expextation low.

I loved all the Cs scene and loved the Henry and Charming at the end.

But I the pace was too fast and the characters change their mind too fast too. Even if Emma and KillIan sold their conflit.

Despite the fact I am not sure to like all the recon in KillIan story since the fall final.

This episode had something that I never felt in any other episode of this show suspense!

I really thought that Liam was going down in the red lake.

This simple fact put this episode above all the episode I know the end before the beginning.

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This episode was a major letdown for me. I was excited for some Killian backstory. Never much cared for Liam, but was interested to see where they would take it. But it was boring and disjointed. None of the emotional beats resonated with me. 

 

positives 

- It wasn't completely terrible. 

- Emma x Regina's talk at Granny's was nice I guess. 

- Cruella is fun. 

- Umm that's it. lol 

 

negatives 

- Everything with Henry was a snore. 

- Please everyone stop saying "hero"

- Emma x Killian scenes were lacking. I watch the show for them but I wasn't feeling the writing for them this episode.

- Everything is so depressing. This show is too campy and silly to be this dark. It doesn't work. 

- Hades hair. Nough said. 

- Does everyone's backstory have to involved murder now? 

- Was it necessary to have Killian be a sloppy lazy drunk who gambles?  

- I was expecting some good captain swan stuff with this being a Killian centric but I didn't find any of their interactions compelling. 

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I was really looking forward to this episode, as I have adored all Hook-backstory episodes. I wanted to love the episode, but I was disappointed. IMO, it wasn't very well-written. It fell victim to what is a constant complaint with the show: Everything was rushed and superficial. Rush rush rush, plot plot plot. They didn't give the characters time to BREATHE and have the really emotional moments that should have been there. They barely even let Hook react to seeing his brother again for the first time! That should have been an emotional gut-punch, but it was glossed over, like so much of the episode. It's like they were ticking off plot boxes, rather than actually caring about what effect things were having on the characters.

 

We didn't even get to see Liam introduced to anybody! Henry walks in on the group, there's this stranger there with everybody, and there's no "Who's this?" or "Henry, this is my brother, Liam." Just "Hey, I know where this book is, let's go!"

 

HEY, ONCE: SLOW THE HECK DOWN! LET CHARACTERS TALK FOR A MINUTE OR TWO ABOUT SOMETHING EMOTIONALLY IMPORTANT! When it comes to a quiet character moment versus Big Plot Drama, I've always going to prefer the quiet character moment.

 

The theme of Hook needing to forgive himself was a really good one. The theme of him having to realize that he'd put his brother on a pedestal he could never measure up to was a really good one. Hook has always had a fair amount of self-loathing -- his confident bravado has clearly served at times as a facade -- so of course he'd be riddled with guilt over his actions as the Dark One and feel like he's not good enough for Emma. Also a good theme. But all were handled in a facile manner that left me unsatisfied and wanting more.

 

Look, I'm thrilled that in the end, Hook did forgive himself and re-committed to having a future with Emma, but I just wish the writing in the episode had been better and deeper. That said, Colin O'Donoghue and Jennifer Morrison delivered their typical excellent performances. Kudos to them!

 

I did love David talking to "emo teen" Henry at the end and getting through to him. That was nice.

 

Cruella was a hoot as usual.

 

Sorry, I can't buy that a GOD couldn't get past the magic security on the house. That's just silly.

 

Is it just me or did Zelena's green makeup in the preview look way cheaper and faker than usual?

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I'm also in the camp of being unable to reconcile this with "Good Form." I expected that when Liam accepted Hades' deal, it would actually rewrite the last several years of their history. Instead of spending the last few years in indentured servitude, they'd spent that time in the Royal Navy and Killian had never become a drunk. I guess that would give Hades too much power in the "overworld," but as I was watching, that was the only way I could see getting from drunk Killian to uptight Lt. Jones.

 

I'd be okay with Liam's overall story as presented in the flashback if the Jones brothers had been several years younger. The money could have been stolen from young Killian because Liam wasn't around to protect him. Then after surviving the shipwreck, they buy their way into the Royal Navy, and we're a few years out from "Good Form."

 

As it is, I think I'm going to ignore the flashback for my own headcanon. 

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This episode could have been really good, but they had to go overboard with the melodrama.

 

So the only way the Writers could think of to get Hook to realize that he was worth saving was to have Liam kill an entire boatload of sailors?  They clearly don't do subtlety.  Move over Eva, Liam gets the "Most Maligned Family Member" award this year.  

 

I don't think the actor who played Liam was bad at all.  I thought his attitude towards Emma was understandable, and would have worked without making him into the shadiest of all shadies.  I really liked how he and Jennifer Morrison played their scenes, and he had chemistry with Colin.  They made Liam so bad that it completely robbed his ascent into the heavens of any emotional resonance.  If they wanted that, they needed to give Liam enough time to repent and to do the right thing, but they didn't.

 

Similarly, Henry's subplot did not work for me because it was rushed as hell.  I loved that Charming had a talk with Henry, but it was completely over-the-top for Henry's very first teenage angst session.  They needed to build that up, maybe with the adults noticing in the last two episodes Henry going off alone, or acting suspicious or guilty or whatever.  Instead, they had Henry off on a drive with Cruella and no one noticed?  If that had been the C plot for two episodes, then it would have made more sense for Charming to have such a serious talk with Henry, and for Henry to come to the realization that he did.

 

And The Apprentice, messing with young minds since time immemorial.  Him telling Henry where the Pen was made no sense.  Still as dumbass than ever.  Nothing about this Author business has changed since 4B.  It didn't work then and it doesn't work now.  So Henry made the right choice... does that mean the Apprentice moved on?  We don't get the pleasure of seeing that?  I REALLY wanted to hear his take on what happened in Camelot, and his thoughts on Merlin and his "plan".

 

The script tease had that stage direction about Hook taking his eyes off the cradle, but they didn't even show him looking at it.

 

So there's a bar in hell, there's champagne in hell, they can have sex in hell, and it's hell because???

 

Hades and Zelena?  Give me a freakin' break.  I thought it would be Hade's origin story or something.  This made me the opposite of excited.

 

So despite a few good scenes here and there, this episode was a very flawed writing job with complete character assassination for Liam.

Edited by Camera One
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The theme of Hook needing to forgive himself was a really good one. The theme of him having to realize that he'd put his brother on a pedestal he could never measure up to was a really good one. Hook has always had a fair amount of self-loathing -- his confident bravado has clearly served at times as a facade -- so of course he'd be riddled with guilt over his actions as the Dark One and feel like he's not good enough for Emma. Also a good theme. But all were handled in a facile manner that left me unsatisfied and wanting more.

 

Hell, I was just happy that this episode didn't turn into Hook choosing between Emma and Liam. Making it about Hook believing that he's worth something was so much better and led to a nicer conclusion even if I did think the emotional beats were completely skipped over. I said when the premiere aired and it was all Regina and her emotional issues to the exclusion of action and plot that they would flip the switch and other characters' stories wouldn't get the emotional resonance that came from that story and this episode proved me right. It's so typical of Once's issues with balance.

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Strangely absent: Robin Hood. 

 

Who?

 

I will say, this is probably my least favorite Hook episode. I don't know something was just off. I blame part of it on how weak Bernard is as an actor.

 

I really hope theirs more to Killian looking at the baby crib. Maybe we'll figure out later on.

 

There was something laboured and almost stylised about it. It hit me at the end when the boat comes into dock to pick up the crew so they can all move to the "better place". It looked like a stage play - you could almost see the curtains and the moving parts. Plus there was a strange disconnect between the two actors and this is from somebody who usually can't get enough of Colin. It was like they were both in a different play and didn't realise it.

 

People can have secret unfinished business and be revealed as a flawed person without being a mass murderer. Maybe it was because the writing took it all too far in the other direction? Can't quite put my finger on it but this episode also didn't entirely work for me.

 

This was a meh episode for me. I'm getting tired of all things Killian Jones.

 

 

Counterpoint: CAPTAIN SWAN. Finally.

Hades and Zelena?  Give me a freakin' break.

 

"How fucking lame". Were my exact words.

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I was really looking forward to this episode, as I have adored all Hook-backstory episodes. I wanted to love the episode, but I was disappointed. IMO, it wasn't very well-written. It fell victim to what is a constant complaint with the show: Everything was rushed and superficial. Rush rush rush, plot plot plot. They didn't give the characters time to BREATHE and have the really emotional moments that should have been there. They barely even let Hook react to seeing his brother again for the first time! That should have been an emotional gut-punch, but it was glossed over, like so much of the episode. It's like they were ticking off plot boxes, rather than actually caring about what effect things were having on the characters.

 

That was my biggest issue. Everything was so rushed that the emotions didn't feel very real to me and I had a hard time caring about any of it. None of it resonates because it's all touched on so shallowly or quickly. It makes sense that he would hate himself and think he was undeserving of being saved, that is consistent with his characterization. But he sure got over it quickly. All he needed to learn was that his brother was a murderer to realize maybe he deserves a chance at life. okayyyyy There was so much potential for character driven emotional interactions and they all fell pretty flat imo. 

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Oh, jaysus. These writers continue their mediocrity in spite of the actors valiantly trying to rise above the ineptitude.

Good moments with so much lost potential in between. I just keep imagining how this could be such a high quality fantasy show if they didn't litter it with so much disjointed junk. And lay off the speed in the writers' room will ya for crap sake. And caffeine, and sugar and...

(Stay positive, Bo, stay upbeat)

I liked Regina's moments, I got a kick out of Henry trying. David still warms my heart when they give him something to do and say. I even got a mini kick out of Cruella, which is rare. I always adore Colin/Killian and the man knows how to emote but honestly they are running his character absolutely ragged. I miss Hook. And Emma...I kind of miss her, too. And I can't even pinpoint where she has gone!

They all have these enlightening little character sparklers that go off but are dulled by a redundant arc going in vapid circles.

None of it makes much sense, really.

Liam didn't move me at all. Killian got all the personality and passion in that family.

Hades is still very poorly defined.

I think I will just go back and like all the posts that bring up points that I am just too tired to tackle. We actually have some very entertaining, witty writers in this forum!

I am very weary of this Underworld.

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I don't know why I love Cruella's over the top nature while Zelena's scenery chewing annoys me. Cruella was so fun in her scenes. I was cracking up at the outfit she was wearing while tromping through the woods and I loved that she knew she was making out with David, not James, and just decided to go with it.

 

One thing I noticed a lot in this episode was the way the characters addressed each other. Emma, who had been referring to Hook as Killian (especially when it was just the two of them) called him Hook. I couldn't figure out if that meant she was taking a step back from their relationship or just force of habit.

 

Both Regina and Emma referred to each other as Henry's mother, which made me feel like the writers were pointing out that they are happily coparenting (as opposed to the "No, but I am his mother!" bickering they used to do). Henry referred to Snow as grandma (I feel like he has referred to David as grandpa a lot more often than he has called Snow his grandma) and then David later referred to himself as grandpa. All of this mother/grandma/grandpa stuff made me feel like they were trying to reinforce the family dynamics of the group which seemed unnecessary. I know that they have all used these titles to refer to each other in past episodes but it felt really heavy handed this week for some reason.

 

I was terrified, absolutely terrified, that David having a grandfather/grandson scene with Henry meant that James had conked him on the head and switched places and was going to give truly stupid, horrible advise that Henry is dumb enough to take to heart.

That same scene made me think they had switched places too! I thought that James was doing reconnaissance for Hades and stirring up trouble.

Edited by ElectricBoogaloo
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I don't know why I love Cruella's over the top nature while Zelena's scenery chewing annoys me.

 

It's the lack of whining. Cruella is evil and revels in it. It's highly entertaining to watch knowing the show isn't going to try to excuse it because [insert sad backstory here].

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Strangely absent: Robin Hood.  I'll just pretend he was doing something important...somewhere...for the entire episode.

Oh my God, I just realized it now. Robin wasn't even in the episode. Why? Did Sean have somewhere else to be? Why wouldn't he even be in the background of some scenes? That's ridiculous.

 

Liam is a huge jerk, who not only caused the death of an entire ship, but also risked the lives of everyone in Underbrooke because he didn't want his little brother to be mad at him. Dude, you're 300 years old. Man the hell up. 

 

You know someone is annoying when even *I* think: "God, can't Regina show up and give him some sass?" and I usually HATE Regina's sass.

Edited by Serena
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After slept on it a after taste amer doux still with me and not just because of this peculiar episode.

It is the twist feels that this show really like to draw their character in the mud just for the sake of it.

I am so tired of it!

At this point I do know if it for elevate the vilain or something else but I wish to see something like the CS movies felt.

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Oh my god with this show, it can be so ridiculous but I still enjoy myself. I was laughing so hard at the CGI at the end, Liam swaying back and forth but the boat wasn't. I guess they only had the actor for the one episode? Because I would have thought there would be a million questions, like:

 

  • Hey, it's been over 100 years and you are still young, what's up with that?
  • Hey, you only have one hand, what's up with that?
  • So you're dead and your gf decided to come grab you and bring her ENTIRE effing family? Who are all these people? She has a kid out of wedlock? And he has two mommies? How does that work - is your girlfriend a former lez? Cause in our, time, Killian, she would probably have been burned at the stake for that. Way to pick 'em. Oh, she's royalty? Well nevermind then.

 

Also now the loft is apparently fine. I guess Rumple and Robin fixed it up and then went out to get a beer and that's why we didn't see them. I don't miss either of them, btw.

 

And why does Hades care so much about 20 or so dead sailors to make the first deal with Liam? With all the wars/school shootings/terrorism, he should be doing just fine.

 

I guess at least they brought up that Killian may not want to come back and that Emma messed up last season. I'm glad it wasn't swept under the rug.

 

And holy shit Henry, get over yourself. You've been the hero like 18 times now, drop the complex.

Edited by babyPhat279
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It's the drinking that I really don't like. Hook has always been shown to be a drinker, but not to the point where he loses control of himself. It's hard to be a successful pirate captain if you can't hold your rum. All Blackbeard would've had to do to get his ship is get him drunk and take it. No need to give up the magic bean.

 

But Killian's, what, early 20's in the flashbacks? 25 max. Lots of people spend that time period drinking, goofing off, messing up, until they decide or are forced to actually do something with their lives. I see him kind of like Logan from Gilmore Girls (or any man-child from a Judd Apatow movie). Getting out of indentured servitude and joining the navy actually gave him real direction and something to achieve. Between that and his idol worshipping of Liam, I can see how Killian would buy into the "Good Form" idea so whole-heartedly. But as others had mentioned, it wasn't actually really internalized in him, so he was able to discard it pretty easily once he felt betrayed by the kingdom. He had learned enough in the intervening years, though, to not go back to his old directionless ways.

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See, I kind of prefer the previous Hook origin we had from Good Form, which was of a basically decent man who just kept getting further and further away from his natural self. This episode tells us that the vengeful gambling drunk is his normal self.  

I don't agree.  I don't think a gambling drunk is his normal self.  I think Killian was devastated by his father's betrayal, and like any younger child fell into drinking to cope.  Throw in that his older brother seems to be good at everything, it made Killian feel inferior.  I think once the brothers entered the Navy, Kilian found that he was a natural seaman and loved the ocean and through that became the Captain that he is now famous for being.  He still drank but not to the point of getting drunk because he found his passion.  Kilian changed into Captain Hook when his brother died and his "hero" lost and then once he lost Milah, he gave into his darker impulses.  The flashbacks show that he was always a good man but damaged.  The fact that once Emma came into his life and was showing him that he is capable of being a good man, he was able to fully embrace the man he always was and renounce his darker impulses

 

And current-day Killian (under-Killian?)... I just didn't buy his mindset. I think, in theory, that mindset of wanting to stay, not deserving saving, etc may have made sense, but it felt far too rushed with so little development. And to be so quick to give up his relationship with Emma? After the 'follow her to the end of earth/time' and declaring her his happy ending? Again, maybe plausible, but here it was SO so rushed for him to to get to that brainspace.

 

I agree with you that it was rushed, but I buy Killian feeling that he was unworthy.  If you look at it from his perspective - he and Emma had barely announced their "I love you's" before Emma was morphed into the Dark One.  Then he goes to try and rescue her, only to find out that she turned him too.  His bigger issue, which he mentioned to her last night, was that when she turned into the Dark One, she was fighting its dark pull while he completely gave into it when he found out he was a Dark One.  For him, it was embarrassing, and he felt that Emma was the better person for being able to fight it.  So in his mind he felt unworthy to go back to the living because I think he felt that he was becoming a better person only to realize that he still could give into darkness.  He ignored the fact, as Emma rightly pointed out, that in the end, he was willing to sacrifice himself to save everyone.  That's all that matters.  That's the big reveal of who Killian Jones truly is - "What are you willing to do when the moment truly counts?"  Save yourself or save the people you love?  Killian passed that test with flying colors, but he couldn't see it because he was holding his brother Liam up as the gold standard of a true hero, the better man.  Finding out that Liam was capable of dark impulses freed Killian from the pedestal he put his brother on.  

 

I think the story, itself, was a good one but agree that it was rushed.  I would have preferred more dramatic moments than trying to tell so many stories at once, but I still enjoyed it.  I loved that in the end Killian chose Emma and a future.

 

 

Interesting that James apparently knew all along that he was adopted. I'd have thought George would have kept that from him, since he was pretending that James was his son.

I am anxious to see some James/David storytelling with OUAT.  As much as I love Hook, I do love the Charmings and David especially.  So if the writers can explore the James/David relationship, that would be great.

 

Also, count me as one who doesn't care for young Killian being a screw up. It retcons Good Form too much. Plus. soooo many questions. Such as:

How did Killian learn to navigate?

How did he learn to dance?

How did he learn that fancy handwriting?

How did he learn sword fighting?

 

 

How does it retcon any of these things?  All these things could have been learned once he became a Navy man.  Killian would have learned to navigate simply being a slave at sea for so many years.  Just because he wasn't at the helm doesn't mean he wasn't watching and learning.  I'm guessing he learned to dance and sword fight as a member of the Navy.  I don't get how the episode changes Killian's past.

 

I will say, I am really glad Charming is getting more to do. 

Let's hope this continues.  It seemed like the writers dropped a few breadcrumbs when Cruella mentioned to David that she can see the damage in him too.  So I would like for the writers to explore that story more.

 

I completely forgot about Robin until I saw the promo for next week.

I did too, and I didn't miss him, which tells me that there is no purpose to the character of Robin beyond being a love interest to Regina.  I just don't feel any pull towards his character the way I do for Hook, Emma, Snow, Charming or any of the other characters.

Edited by Bishop
  • Love 5
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I don't think a gambling drunk is his normal self.  I think Killian was devastated by his father's betrayal, and like any younger child fell into drinking to cope.

But his father's betrayal was probably about a decade earlier, when he was a child. This is him as a very young adult, in what was apparently established behavior. His Lt. Jones phase was only a few years, so in the greater view of his life, Lt. Jones was the aberration while the angry drunk is his normal self. Liam told Emma that Killian had been fighting darkness his whole life. And that, to me, doesn't fit what Hook told Emma in season four about finding his way back to the good man he used to be. What we've been told and shown in the past was that "Captain Hook" was the result of a good man who reacted badly to two major life events, going deeper into darkness each time. But this version of the story suggests that he was never all that good and what he really did was merely revert to form after a brief experiment with being good.

 

I also wonder whether the screwup angry drunk would have revered or resented the perfect older brother. Maybe not having parents around to say stuff like "why can't you be more like your brother?" made a difference. It also seems to me that if Liam was in the role of essentially being a parent and guardian to his younger brother, the fact that his kid brother was a drunken, gambling screwup reflects badly on him. He didn't do his job very well. It's even worse that he let his brother put him on a pedestal that way when that just made things worse. Killian was calling himself a screwup while openly idolizing his brother, making comparisons between himself and his brother that made it clear he thought he might as well screw up because he could never measure up, and Liam didn't do anything to set him straight. It seems like there needs to be a lot more to the story of how Killian even got the self-loathing that turned him into an angry drunk before he became a pirate.

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How does it retcon any of these things?  All these things could have been learned once he became a Navy man.  Killian would have learned to navigate simply being a slave at sea for so many years.  Just because he wasn't at the helm doesn't mean he wasn't watching and learning.  I'm guessing he learned to dance and sword fight as a member of the Navy.  I don't get how the episode changes Killian's past.

 

Because they are things that take a long time and special training to learn. Proper navigational techniques and use of tools like the sextant from Good Form is not just something you pick up by osmosis whilst mopping up fish guts, especially if you're drunk all the time. People who don't start writing until later in life are going to have to work really hard to get that elegant handwriting. Plus, Killian was completely at ease at that ball with Emma. Sorry, but it just doesn't scan. The only way I can see it being possible is if they were only in servitude for a few years and then went into school and naval training from a pretty young age. So, for example:

Father's abandonment, Killian age 6, Liam age 10

Servitude, Killian ages 6-11, Liam ages 10-15. 

Rescue and education, Killian ages 11-18, Liam ages 15-18

 

This episode would have worked a lot better for me if they'd had younger actors in the flashbacks. 

 

Also, I agree with people who have said that Liam's unfinished business didn't necessarily have to have been so awful. For me, there'd have been more emotional resonance if he simply regretted that his stubbornness and arrogance had resulted in Killian being left alone and turning pirate. Him admitting that he had been wrong and died because he was TSTL, that he should have listened to Killian from the beginning would have been enough to show that he wasn't perfect and that Killian himself had sound judgement, when he wasn't letting his temper get the better of him. That scene with Milah and Rumple in the boat last week where she admitted that she regretted leaving Bae--that was a great scene, really moving. Something like that between Killian and Liam would've been excellent.  

  • Love 2
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I have accepted that Hook and Emma are going to be a thing big why does the show have to continue to torture me with such amazing Regina/Emma scenes and then have Hook be a Douche?

I did like one thing though. With both his brother and Emma he thought they rose the bar of being good guys so high that he could never reach it but now he is seeing them for the deeply flawed people that they actually are. The bar isn't nearly as high as he thinks it is.

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So, I think my biggest disappointment in this episode was the lack of weight given to Liam and Killians relationship. When they saw each other, there should have been more emotion, more drama, more...something. It seemed more like seeing your old college roomate after a couple of years. Happy to see each other, but not a life changing reunion. Killian was a mess when Liam got killed. His death was a huge part of KIlllians life, it completely changed him and his path. They were all each other had since their father ditched them and sold them into indentured servitude. They went through a lot together. Their reunion should have a lot more to it. Have Killian being shocked to see his sainted brother in limbo, have Liam show shock at Killians hook, or hear some about what all happened to him after his death. Something! 

 

I was rather disappointed in the backstory as well. As others have said, it would have made more sense to have younger actors play the brothers. It would have been a lot easier to buy Killian as a drunk screw up as a teenager or a young 20 something, or Liam making the deal as a desperate young man, not someone who is clearly an adult. I honestly think they went too far in making Liam a bad guy here. He did not need to kill a whole ship of people in order to not live up to the image that Killian had of him. Its hard to reconcile that backstory with the guy we met in Good Form. 

 

I will say, there were good things in this as well. I actually liked the scenes with Regina and Emma. If they spent more time with Regina as a supportive friend who struggled with forgiving herself, and less time on flashbacks of her pointlessly murdering people and her "snark", I would have liked her a lot more ages ago. I also thought the "Killian has to forgive himself" stuff was pretty good, and was consistent with what we have already seen of Killian and his issues. He has low self esteem, and tends to beat himself up a million times more than anyone else ever has on this show. I wish we had had more of Killian and Emma, and less time with Henry and his savior complex. 

  • Love 5
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To be fair to the writers, it alrady was difficult to handle all the characters they had, so adding in Robin would have made him stand around, I guess, and not do anything but help with the book search. As much as I love a love interest for Regina, I think having 6 characters in one scene was difficult enough to write for. BUT they should at least have explained his absence. Maybe they did and the scene was cut, still, someone should have said something about his whereabouts. That Rumple was missing, fine. He's not a team player anyway. But they were big on Robin being in the Underworld to lend support to Regina, so he should maybe at least have been in the diner with Emma and Regina and then head off to wherever he was during the episode. (Looking for Marian?)

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So, I think my biggest disappointment in this episode was the lack of weight given to Liam and Killians relationship. When they saw each other, there should have been more emotion, more drama, more...something.

All that happened during the commercial break.

 

I can kind of see Killian being so stunned and numb after everything he's gone through that he might have been sitting there in some kind of shock during the conversation around the kitchen table. But Liam was being so weirdly unemotional and non-shocked by everything that when Hades showed up in his bar later, I expected the scene to be "Did you do what I asked you to do?" rather than "Here's what I need you to do." Liam's behavior would have made more sense if he'd already been under orders from Hades.

 

As for the Liam pedestal, didn't Hook tell David back in "Good Form" that his brother was a stubborn ass? He compared David to Liam, and he didn't mean it as a compliment. Hook could have looked up to his brother and admired him without believing that he was 100 percent perfect, but in this episode, it was like he believed he was practically godlike.

 

Also, I'm a little disappointed that we didn't get any interaction between David and Liam, especially since they seemed to be doing a theme of brothers, with David learning more about James. Though the James stuff still doesn't make much sense to me. For one thing, I don't buy that George, after making a deal with Rumple, would have let James know he was adopted. The idea was that he was passing this child off as his own. I'm not sure I get resenting being the one sent to live in luxury and be heir to a throne. How would a parent of newborns even pick a favorite? The one who cried the least? And if James did know, what was stopping him from going to meet with Ruth?

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I don't know. Everyone seemed to know David as James wasn't King George's son. They practically announced it.

 

 

King George: Regina. What do you want?

Evil Queen: I want the man you pretend is your son. And I’m prepared to pay any riches Midas promised you in return for him.

Edited by Writing Wrongs
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But his father's betrayal was probably about a decade earlier, when he was a child. This is him as a very young adult, in what was apparently established behavior. 

Yeah, but how do you get over the fact that your father said he would be there for you and then SOLD you into slavery?  You don't let go of that kind of betrayal, and the only reason I think that Liam didn't fall victim to drinking is because he felt that raising Killian was his responsibility.  

 

And that, to me, doesn't fit what Hook told Emma in season four about finding his way back to the good man he used to be. What we've been told and shown in the past was that "Captain Hook" was the result of a good man who reacted badly to two major life events, going deeper into darkness each time. But this version of the story suggests that he was never all that good and what he really did was merely revert to form after a brief experiment with being good.

 

No, Hook explained exactly why he felt the way he did, and it was because he gave into the darkness immediately.  He felt that all the progress he made towards redemption in season four was mitigated when he gave into the darkness as a Dark One.  Killian ignored the fact that he was able to make the noble sacrifice in the end.  It still shows that he is a good man who reacted badly.  That man still exists, but I think Killian thought he would be stronger, even though in the end, he WAS stronger.  Kilian is hard on himself, and I think he held Liam up as the best example of a true male hero who has never fallen or made poor decisions.  Once Killian found out that Liam was even more capable of making bad decisions and turning to darkness than himself, he freed Killian from this idea that he needed to live up to his brother's example.

 

 It also seems to me that if Liam was in the role of essentially being a parent and guardian to his younger brother, the fact that his kid brother was a drunken, gambling screwup reflects badly on him. He didn't do his job very well. It's even worse that he let his brother put him on a pedestal that way when that just made things worse. 

 

 

I agree.  It's been established that Liam was a self-righteous ass.  I think a big part of him loved being on the pedestal his brother put him on and even liked that Killian screwed up to elevate Liam even more.  In some ways, actually, they had a twisted relationship - one that Killian needed to be freed from finally.  Now he can be his own man and not live in the shadow of his "perfect" brother.

 

So, I think my biggest disappointment in this episode was the lack of weight given to Liam and Killians relationship. When they saw each other, there should have been more emotion, more drama, more...something. 

I agree with you.  I think the episode was too fast moving, which tends to happen when the writers want to tell multiple stories at one.  There should have been more time spent on establishing the Liam and Killian relationship, and even showing HOW Killian spiraled out of control as a young boy.  I would have liked more emotion between the brothers, but it is what it is, and I still was able to enjoy it.  It certainly could have been better.

 

I will say, there were good things in this as well. I actually liked the scenes with Regina and Emma. If they spent more time with Regina as a supportive friend who struggled with forgiving herself, and less time on flashbacks of her pointlessly murdering people and her "snark", I would have liked her a lot more ages ago.

 

I prefer Regina also when she's less sarcastic and snarky.  It was nice to hear her just give some good advice and not taking potshots at everyone.  She's hardly perfect, and it was good to hear her admit that she and Hook actually have a lot in common.

 

I also thought the "Killian has to forgive himself" stuff was pretty good, and was consistent with what we have already seen of Killian and his issues. He has low self esteem, and tends to beat himself up a million times more than anyone else ever has on this show. I wish we had had more of Killian and Emma, and less time with Henry and his savior complex.

 

 

I like that Killian beats himself up because it shows me that he IS a good man.  Good men tend to refuse to see the good in themselves whereas the bad men seem to think they are great and infallible from the get-go (i.e., Gold, Hades, etc).  I think Killian has always wanted to become that good man but felt that he was just too lost after his brother and Milah's deaths and his revenge for Gold to warrant any consideration.  That's why I like the Hook/Emma storyline.  It was a very slow build romance that really fleshed out their relationship and both broken characters.  I really believe in this love story and root for it.  I wished the writers had given more of that same time to the Charmings love story.  We only got their love story in season one and only in a handful of episodes.  I mean they fell in love within three episodes, I think.  I would have liked to have watched their love story evolve more slowly as well.  

 

I do think the story should have revolved essentially around Killian/Liam and Killian/Emma and leave the rest of the Henry/Cruella stuff for another episode.  I don't get why the writers feel that they need to showcase everyone all the time.  More focused episodes would be more satisfying.

Edited by Bishop
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