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S05.E15: The Brothers Jones


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That's the way I interpreted Liam's comment. I think Liam could sense Killian's depression and self-loathing, and he equated that, along with Killian's outbursts of anger and drinking, as "darkness." So in that sense, yes, Killian battled those kinds of demons as long as Liam had been his brother. Even as a young 10-year-old, Killian throwing a temper tantrum and tossing a rag overboard in a fit of anger would probably considered "darkness" in Liam's eyes.

 

Considering the lengths to which Liam went to ensure that place in the navy which was his dream, I thought the choice of words was a bit out there. 

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Hold the presses, I'm gonna say something positive about Regina. When she said that she and Killian were alike, she was actually kinda right. She was always getting in the way of her own happiness, while Killian was holding himself to an impossibly high standard, which he couldn't hope to meet, making him feel like a failure in many areas, hence the self-loathing. They were the ones tripping themselves up, and now (hopefully) that's all better. Of course we had a whole half-season arc and Operation Dumbass for her no shit, Sherlock revelation, while Killian gets a one and done.

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Now that I think about it, Liam considering Killian's anger and bitterness to be "darkness" is consistent with this show. After all, it was portrayed as a sign of darkness and proof of the dark spot on Snow's heart when she was angry at someone who'd horribly wronged her and lied to her/concealed it from her. So, yeah, growing up bitter and angry because your father sold you into slavery and drinking to self-medicate while not having a lot of direction in life would be considered struggling with darkness.

 

The sad thing about Liam's choice was that it wasn't entirely necessary. Killian was saving the ship, and they'd overthrown the captain. After a mutiny, I doubt that buying freedom would be necessary. Even if one of the other crew took over as captain, rather than either Liam or Killian, them saving the ship might have bought them their freedom, and they then could have joined the navy. They just wouldn't have had the boost they got from having the sapphire. They'd have had to work their way up as ordinary sailors. It was a huge price paid for very little advantage, especially if Killian wasn't all that keen on it, anyway. He might not have minded staying on the ship as an ordinary crew member who was treated with some respect rather than being a deckhand slave.

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But that's what Liam said about him. He told Emma that Killian had struggled with darkness his whole life.

 

Now, that could have just been Liam being an ass and a self-righteous hypocrite.

I think it's the latter.  I think Liam sees anything not virtuous as weakness, and I say that because based on what we've seen of Liam and Killian's time together seemed to infer that Killian was "dark."  Then again, others have brought up good points that maybe Liam's reference to darkness was Killian's anger and bitterness over what their father did to them.  I can see that being a possibility as well.

Hook's early Darkness could be coming across that way because the flashbacks were Liam's POV. As the audience, we knew everything that was going on because we saw it all from Liam's perspective. 

That's an interesting perspective.  If it was from Liam's pov, then you're right.  It could be that he saw Killian as a screw up when, in fact, he was just a young guy going through betrayal issues that he was able to work out later because Killian seemed to be a very competent and successful seaman in the King's navy - unless, again, we haven't seen something in his past.

 

I am disappointed because I simply prefer the Good Form Killian as the starting point for the Hook we have today as opposed to a 2 or three year blip on the radar of Hook's very long life.

It's funny because I feel the opposite.  I couldn't reconcile how the Good Form Killian could become so villainous as Captain Hook.  It seemed such a stretch, but now that I know how his father betrayed him, how he worked as a slave on a ship with a mean-spirited captain, I can see where his darker side was able to take root.  It would never have made sense to me if Killian had had a good childhood and a noble early life only to turn fully bad as Captain Hook.  There had to be roots for his darkness, and I think this last episode helped provide that insight.  

 

This episode broke my heart and not in a good way.

We are always short changed with hook, especially when compared with Regina and Rumple. It's like the f-Ing Neverland arc. They have to shoe in rumple and Regina and explore their issues while leaving little for Hook who is cannonly from Neverland. Here in the Underworld, we don't get any of the emotionally moments with Hook and his loved ones.

Hook doesn't get to see Milah, the woman he spent centuries trying to avenge. Instead she gets damned for all eternity after giving Rumple and Milah a meaty emotional scene. 

You know, you are so right about this.  As much as I love the Hook/Killian character, he never seems to get the fully fleshed out scenes and tends to get short-changed.  I do think that the writers have devoted way more time to fleshing out Rumple and Regina - who for whatever reason needs to be in every episode.  Like you stated, why can't Killian get his scene with Milah rather than Gold since it was Hook that pined and grieved for her for hundreds of years.  I'm guessing Rumple forgot about Milah the minute he killed her.  Perhaps there is a future scene coming up for Milah and Hook, but I won't hold my breath.

 

I also agree with you about sibling love.  I, too, am very close to my siblings, and we hug all the time.  When Killian opened the door and saw his brother and vice versa, there should have been a big reaction between the two of them.  There should have been far more scenes between the two brothers other than the two brief scenes we got.  

 

They need to get a new writer for Hook episodes, who actually likes Hook as Hook not as some angst driven loser emo. I never thought Hook was so driven by self loathing. He had some but now it's gone way overboard and it is not interesting. I want the passionate, fun, resourceful hook back. I want him to be more than Emma's love interest and want no more emo angst. 

 

 

I don't agree with you on this point.  I like the fun and resourceful Hook, but I also love the emo Hook.  He is a man who loves and hates passionately, and he is a man driven BY his emotions.  I don't need the happy-go-lucky pirate all the time.  I do think that the writers should allow WAY more time to flesh out Hook, but I have loved this last season very much - and the previous ones.  Colin tends to make the most of his scenes, even when the writers aren't giving him much to work with.  

Edited by Bishop
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The sad thing about Liam's choice was that it wasn't entirely necessary. Killian was saving the ship, and they'd overthrown the captain. After a mutiny, I doubt that buying freedom would be necessary. Even if one of the other crew took over as captain, rather than either Liam or Killian, them saving the ship might have bought them their freedom, and they then could have joined the navy.

 

None of it was necessarily.  Liam was already the de facto captain of the ship.  Clearly, he wasn't afraid of hard work, so the mutiny was already a "win".  He didn't even make the deal in a dead-end situation.  Liam also didn't need to rip up his papers to join the navy.  He could have joined the navy for a year, and earn the money to "buy" Killian back.  Those two options would be what a normal person would do; instead, they had Liam make a deal which made him seem like a complete psycho.  It shows that they have no interest in writing ordinary guys, only raving lunatics.

Edited by Camera One
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Those two options would be what a normal person would do; instead, they had Liam make a deal which made him seem like a complete psycho.  It shows that they have no interest in writing ordinary guys, only raving lunatics.

 

No, it proves that they believe the only way to do things is to drag the heroes down to the villain's level in order to prop up the villain. I nearly died when they actually had Killian express that idea in dialogue. "You think if you can prove that Liam is a villain, then I'll somehow feel like I was less of one." That's exactly the writers' philosophy and it's one we've pointed out is stupid. They consistently drag good people through the mud rather than deal with the villains' heinous actions in a realistic way.

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It would never have made sense to me if Killian had had a good childhood and a noble early life only to turn fully bad as Captain Hook.  There had to be roots for his darkness, and I think this last episode helped provide that insight.

I never thought he had a good childhood. If I had to pick the worst childhood on OUaT, only Emma and maybe Zelena and Jiminy's childhoods compare to Hook and Liam's, IMO. Other flashbacks and even what current Hook has said on the matter already alluded to a sucky childhood, so there was no surprise for me on that front. I suppose, prior to this flashback, I rather thought he did a good job of coping and persevering until Liam's death and then Milah's death, at which point he just couldn't cope anymore. Sort of a piling on of despair as opposed to giving into despair early and Liam being the only thing holding it back. Again, I am not saying it's out of character at all, I just liked the other version more. 

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No, it proves that they believe the only way to do things is to drag the heroes down to the villain's level in order to prop up the villain. I nearly died when they actually had Killian express that idea in dialogue. "You think if you can prove that Liam is a villain, then I'll somehow feel like I was less of one." That's exactly the writers' philosophy and it's one we've pointed out is stupid. They consistently drag good people through the mud rather than deal with the villains' heinous actions in a realistic way.

This THIS SO MUCH THIS! I too agree that the reason they have Liam say Killian always struggled with darkness is so that he is on the same level as Regina and Rumple. Hell they even had Hades point out that Rumple was the bigger supplier of souls though we've seen on screen that Regina has taken more lives.  It does not matter what they show on screen, these are their "truths" 

 

Regina is a victim and it was the "Evil Queen" who did all those bad things

Neal is a hero

Rumple is misunderstood and has the best heart

Hook is dark and as bad if not worse then Regina and Rumple

Regina and Emma are best friends despite the fact that she is directly responsible for most of the misery in Emma's life

The White Family women are all judgemental and deserve to be punished

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No Navy would let mutineers go unpunished or allow them into the Navy. Naval ships especially on that era required strict obedience to function. More over there is likely a caste system in place that would never award a slave for usurping his master. They would have to be pirates at that point or land and make a new life somewhere.

About drunk Killian, if this was Killian first time with alcohol and it was clear that happen, I might let it go, but I got the sense that it wasn't a one time thing.

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No, it proves that they believe the only way to do things is to drag the heroes down to the villain's level in order to prop up the villain. I nearly died when they actually had Killian express that idea in dialogue. "You think if you can prove that Liam is a villain, then I'll somehow feel like I was less of one."

It's ironic that Killian was scoffing at this concept, even though they seem to take it seriously.

 

But the problem is, evil and good aren't really graded on a curve -- unless maybe you're in a really, really dark Game of Thrones type world where everyone is a savage killer, so you're a saint if you're not also a rapist. Liam having let the crew die doesn't in any way diminish all of Killian's acts as a revenge-driven pirate. Having a perfect older brother who set the bar so high that he could never live up to it so he didn't even try might have explained things if he was a garden-variety underachiever, but the decisions Killian made had absolutely nothing to do with how good he perceived Liam to be. The one area where I think it might have had an impact was if never feeling he measured up created a mindset that led to him caving so quickly to the Darkness, but I think that could have happened regardless of Liam because he had plenty of good reason for self-loathing because of his years as a revenge-driven pirate. Regardless of Liam, he gave himself plenty of reasons to doubt his own capacity for good and susceptibility to darkness. I think what the show was trying to show us was that seeing that Liam was able to go on to the good afterlife in spite of having done that one bad thing made Killian see that he, too, could move on from his past, but even in that case, he'd previously been comparing himself to Emma, not to his brother. He felt he was unworthy because Emma resisted the darkness and he didn't.

 

Though a lot of it depends on how Liam handled that "perfect brother" image and his motivations. Did he do it to puff himself up, or had he seen how badly the revelation of their father's failures had shattered his little brother, and so he was afraid of what would happen to Killian if he learned Liam had failed? If it's the latter, then keeping that secret might have been a good idea. Can you imagine the freakout if Killian had learned about the deal with Hades while both of them were still alive?

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I know when I initially reacted to this episode, I said I liked it. I'm not sure if it's because I've read everyone else's opinions or I've just thought about it more, but I see it in a less positive light now.

One thing I didn't entirely understand was Killian's revelation that caused him to want to live on. If someone understands what happened in his last scene with Liam, feel free to explain it to me. If it's just hero shaming into order to prop up a "villain" (in this case Killian), I'm not very satisfied.

And that's my main problem with the episode as a whole. It was all about making Liam look like a jerk in order to make Killian feel better about himself. The writers up the ante on the hero worship in order to make the change of heart more meaningful. While he revered his brother before, he didn't think of him as perfect. ("stubborn arse") A good chunk of screen time is put into an eggnapper scenario, which says to me that the writers were more interested in getting Killian to want to live with Emma than they were with exploring his relationship with Liam.

As for Henry's subplot... it belonged in S3 or S4. His "I never get to help!" whining is nonsense. He saved everyone in the S4 finale, then later helped Emma in 5x10. I get he's a teenager being a teenager, but this show still treats him like he's 12 most of the time.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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One thing I didn't entirely understand was Killian's revelation that caused him to want to live on. If someone understands what happened in his last scene with Liam, feel free to explain it to me.

The way it looks to me right now:

I don't deserve a second chance at life because I was a terrible person as a revenge-driven pirate and even when I thought I'd changed and had become a good person, when I was turned into the Dark One, I caved in about thirty seconds while Emma resisted for weeks -> my perfect brother wasn't perfect after all -> okay, I deserve to live

 

It doesn't even track if the idea was that it was people like his brother who deserved a second chance while he didn't because finding out that his perfect brother wasn't perfect would only mean that his brother also didn't deserve a second chance.

 

Instead of tearing Liam down, they needed to have built Killian up -- let Liam see Killian doing something heroic and helping someone else move on, maybe attempting to sacrifice himself to save Liam, and then have the brotherly role reversal where Liam gushes about how awesome and heroic Killian is, maybe even talk about how much he admired him when they were growing up, and then Killian seeing himself through his brother's eyes might have given him a different perspective. What would have made a real difference for Killian would be his sainted brother being proud of him, not tearing down his sainted brother.

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I don't deserve a second chance at life because I was a terrible person as a revenge-driven pirate and even when I thought I'd changed and had become a good person, when I was turned into the Dark One, I caved in about thirty seconds while Emma resisted for weeks -> my perfect brother wasn't perfect after all -> okay, I deserve to live

Hmm. It didn't have anything to do with Olympus looking more appealing, then. Regardless of what he deserved, wouldn't Killian want to move on after all the crap from 5A? Well, I suppose that would be more sensible thinking. (As sensible as things can be in the Underworld.) But it never was about Killian - it was about Liam, who was just a means to an end to support the plot. Killian didn't get to speak his mind much at all. However, we got giant neon signs pointing out Liam was a self-righteous jerk with a secret. A&E's puppet strings were highly visible. That really takes me out of the story and makes it difficult for me to sympathize with the Jones brothers. Killian is self-loathing and Liam is a hypocrite. Thanks, two-dimensional writing. Moving on...

 

The point of this episode was to give Killian a reason to join the Nevengers without wavering and tie up any loose ends from Dark Hook. If he were conflicted any longer, it could detract from all the others plots I'm sure A&E are antsy to get to.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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What would have made a real difference for Killian would be his sainted brother being proud of him, not tearing down his sainted brother.

 

When the filming spoilers came out, the original idea some had was that Liam was angry with Killian for turning into a vengeance-driven pirate, but later acknowledging that he has worked hard to turn himself around, despite some backslidings. I think that would have worked out way better than what we actually got. This episode made me think poorly of Liam. I already thought he was TSTL, but now the writers have turned him into a sell-out like his dad. He was protective of his brother, and clearly cared for him a lot. But the distinct lack of hugs or other displays of affection during their reunion did not emphasize that aspect.  All his interactions with Killian seemed to be tinged with the knowledge of his guilty secret. This is exactly the eggnapping nonsense all over again. Why can't there be untainted upright characters in the Show? If the writers think nobody like that exists in real life, then they don't know enough people in real life. 

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I liked the whole "You set the bar so high, all I could do was fail."

 

I agree that they didn't have to drag Liam to get that end result, but I hated his self-righteous everything that I didn't even care. Liam came off as extremely unsympathetic, and there were a couple of times during the episode when I didn't feel he was doing anything for his brother, but rather for himself. 

 

I saw Killian kind of regress with him in that he became his subordinate rather than just be himself the way I knew him as a viewer.

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I also agree with you about sibling love.  I, too, am very close to my siblings, and we hug all the time.  When Killian opened the door and saw his brother and vice versa, there should have been a big reaction between the two of them.

 

Killian not hugging Liam made sense to me. Killian had just refused to kiss Emma because he felt that he did not deserve it after what he had done. He'd be even less likely to think he deserved a hug from his perfect older brother.

 

Liam kind of trapped himself in one of those grain-chicken-fox-boat-only-carries-two problems. Killian had gambled away his silver so he couldn't buy his own freedom. Liam could become a Naval officer himself and earn money to save Killian later, but he probably feared that without him protecting his younger brother, his brother might not last long enough to be saved. If Liam used his silver to buy Killian's freedom and hoped Killian would earn the money as a Naval officer, he would have to fear that Killian would get drunk and spoil that as well. By the time Liam got himself free, Killian would be a disaster. Killian was just a mess of depression and Liam knew he had to lash himself to Killian to keep Killian afloat.

 

Mutineers were often hanged in our world, so I can kind of buy Liam being tempted by Hades plan. Hades could give him everything he ever wanted and save both their lives (not assured even with them in control). All the witnesses to the mutiny would also be conveniently dead. Still, cold-bloodedly killing all those people is a bad, bad thing. He may have a higher body count that Captain Hook.

 

I don't understand Hades, though. Sure, he misses out on this boat-load of souls if the Jones brothers save the day, but by giving them the sapphire-storm-thing, he loses out on future potential bloat loads. Was this boat load special or did he just like owning Liam?

 

I think that Killian was the better captain in this episode and in Good Form (other than his depression drinking). He questions situations, collects facts, notices that they are off course and rallies men. With a bit of confidence he is fine. With Hades saying it was hard to read without light and lighting a candle, I though we were about to find out that Liam couldn't read and that's why he had to go along with Hades plan (he could never have navigated them out of there). I'll fanwank Killian knowing how to read/navigate because some kindly underling on the boat taught him.

 

I think Silver spiked Killian's drink and stole that money. It was way too convenient and Killian looked like he'd been roofied.

 

That shipped seemed to have a lot of men on it, but only six got into the row boat. What happened to the other dudes?

 

I totally see how formerly drunk Killian became rum-tossing Good Form Killian. There is nobody more self-righteous than a reformed addict. Just try eating a piece of chocolate cake around somebody who just lost 100 pounds or smoking around an ex-smoker. Some of them will give you the self-righteous lecture of a life-time.

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I interpreted it as Killian beeing able to forgive his brother. We know how he struggles with forgiveness and moving on. In the end he didn't love his brother any less even if he did something terrible. He asked his brother to forgive himself, and that inspired him to do the same. He didn't want go back because of his acts as the Dark one, and not what he did as captain Hook.

 

Now, I do agree with Shanna Marie, Liam telling Killian that he saw him as the good and talented one (or hero if we need to throw this word again on this show) would've been a lot more satisfying.

Edited by didia
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I totally see how formerly drunk Killian became rum-tossing Good Form Killian. There is nobody more self-righteous than a reformed addict. Just try eating a piece of chocolate cake around somebody who just lost 100 pounds or smoking around an ex-smoker. Some of them will give you the self-righteous lecture of a life-time.

 

I think that considering what happened to him on Silver's ship with the drinking, or like you said, he looked like he was roofied, I can sort of see why he wouldn't want that on the ship. He was sort of the poster child for don't drink and...

 

I thought that whole scene opened more questions, not because I want him to not have become drunk and gambled away the money, but more regarding the why? Why do that when he was almost home free? The whole thing was odd. There was enough money, plus whatever they were getting for enlisting to never have to look at Silver's face again.

Edited by YaddaYadda
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I hate that they had to run Liam through the mud. Once again, they took a "good" character, and made them do something "evil" to drive home the point that there is no black and white. But the thing is, there are truly good people in the world. Not everyone has to be morally ambiguous in order for other characters to feel better about themselves, or for the villains to get their happy ending without the audience crying foul. It's like the writers just love to hit us over the head with "Hey look, another good guy that has done something bad, but it's OK, because he feels sorry, so he is redeemed now!"

 

ETA: I totally think Silver took advantage of Killian to steal his money. I don't think he drugged him, but I'm sure he kept giving him alcohol, and then suggested that they play a friendly game of cards, after Killian was too drunk to realize what was happening.

Edited by pezgirl7
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I totally think Silver took advantage of Killian to steal his money. I don't think he drugged him, but I'm sure he kept giving him alcohol, and then suggested that they play a friendly game of cards, after Killian was too drunk to realize what was happening.

 

I suggested in the Hook thread that Silver used rigged dice against Killian. It would make sense that that's how Hook got the idea to teach Henry about it in Season 3.

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One thing I didn't entirely understand was Killian's revelation that caused him to want to live on. If someone understands what happened in his last scene with Liam, feel free to explain it to me. If it's just hero shaming into order to prop up a "villain" (in this case Killian), I'm not very satisfied.

 

I've given this some thought, and I think Killian realized that he could forgive himself because he had already forgiven Liam for what he had done?

 

During the entire episode, Emma was telling Killian that he had to forgive himself because she had forgiven him. She told him no matter what I say or what anyone says to you, it's not gonna mean anything until you take those steps yourself.

 

It sort of goes back to the whole "sins can be forgiven when someone loves you" from 5x08, people can forgive, but in the end, it's up to the person at fault to see if they are able to forgive themselves, and this has been an overarching theme with Killian in the sense that he recognizes his mistakes, and the bad things he has done, but has a difficult time getting past them.

 

I think that it's really all it meant, that maybe he understood what Emma has been saying to him all along. 

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I saw Killian kind of regress with him in that he became his subordinate rather than just be himself the way I knew him as a viewer.

 

Getting out from under Liam's shadow was not a bad thing for Killian. It's unfortunate that it drove him to piracy, but if the people who are saying that he was never that keen on the Navy in the first place are right, then maybe he would never have fully taken to the restrictiveness of a military career. Away from his "perfect" brother and from military hierarchy, Killian was able to come into his own under his own terms.  

 

 

I totally see how formerly drunk Killian became rum-tossing Good Form Killian. There is nobody more self-righteous than a reformed addict. Just try eating a piece of chocolate cake around somebody who just lost 100 pounds or smoking around an ex-smoker. Some of them will give you the self-righteous lecture of a life-time.

 

 

What I don't get is how he then goes back to drinking, but seems to be able to keep from letting it destroy him as before. Not impossible, I guess, but it seems odd. 

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What I don't get is how he then goes back to drinking, but seems to be able to keep from letting it destroy him as before. Not impossible, I guess, but it seems odd.

 

Old habits die hard. If the Navy was never Killian's true dream, then him quitting drinking cold turkey wasn't part of his life plan either. He most likely only did it to appease his brother, to prove to everyone he had turned over a new leaf, and because the navy rules probably forbade it. I could imagine Lieutenant Jones being self-righteous one moment yelling at a sailor who snuck rum on the ship, and the next moment thinking to himself how good a taste of it might be. Once his brother died and he didn't have to keep up his strict Lieutenant appearance to everyone, he could also drop the sober act as well. I think current Killian has learned a lot about how over-drinking is bad, but life experiences have also taught him that a) alcohol does numb pain to a point, and b) it's not going to kill you to have one or two drinks, but to remain cautious about going overboard.

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Getting out from under Liam's shadow was not a bad thing for Killian. It's unfortunate that it drove him to piracy, but if the people who are saying that he was never that keen on the Navy in the first place are right, then maybe he would never have fully taken to the restrictiveness of a military career. Away from his "perfect" brother and from military hierarchy, Killian was able to come into his own under his own terms.  

 

I'm someone who is saying that he wasn't too keen on the navy. At the same time, the way I interpret things is that he was responsible for his brother losing his chance at going into the navy earlier, because he screwed up. And since he promised to not squander his second chance, then he just walked a straight line. 

 

When those naval officers found them on the beach and I guess the admiral or whoever that was said that there was a huge reward on the Eye of the Storm, Liam turned down the reward on both his and Killian's behalf.

 

WTF, man! You didn't even discuss with your brother what he wanted. Maybe he'd want the reward to buy a home, or something. Maybe Killian could've gotten half the reward, and Liam enlisted in the navy. 

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WTF, man! You didn't even discuss with your brother what he wanted. Maybe he'd want the reward to buy a home, or something. Maybe Killian could've gotten half the reward, and Liam enlisted in the navy.

 

Liam bought that jewel with the lives of the men he killed. There is no way that Liam was going to take reward money for that.  He may be able to justify taking a position in the Navy he was going to get anyway before Silver virtually forced him to stay on as crew (and to save his brother), but taking money for it would be impossible to internally justify.

 

Since Liam got the jewel (whether through the truth where he made a deal with Hades or the lie that he recovered it while Killian was passed out), I don't have a problem with him not consulting Killian about what to do with the jewel. He might like to discuss what Killian might like to do for a living though.

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Hmm. It didn't have anything to do with Olympus looking more appealing, then.

He didn't get to see Olympus. He hadn't seen anyone moving on before Liam did. At the time he was refusing to let Emma kiss him and telling her he wasn't going back with her, it was before Liam showed up. Then it seemed to be all about the way he'd surrendered to the darkness so quickly, that he'd thought he'd become a better person but then proved he hadn't when he caved so easily, to which Emma responded that he did eventually fight it back and sacrificed himself, so he was a hero. Liam showing up at that time just made matters worse. Though it would have helped there if we'd seen their reunion and could see how Hook reacted to it -- was he ashamed of his brother seeing what he'd become?

 

Why can't there be untainted upright characters in the Show?

They keep talking like they're showing complexity and shades of gray, but they keep talking in black and white terms. There's also a lot of room on the spectrum between "perfect saint" and "selling out an entire crew to die." They could have let Killian get a more mature, adult view of his brother to realize that he was human without making his brother into a kind of villain (yet weirdly not truly treated like a villain). It would have made a lot of sense if Liam was desperately trying to maintain that good image for his brother to keep from disappointing him the way their father had disappointed him, and both of them realized after death that this hadn't done either of them any good. It was exhausting and limiting for Liam to keep acting so perfect, and it would have helped Killian a lot if he'd known perfection wasn't necessary.

 

Killian not hugging Liam made sense to me. Killian had just refused to kiss Emma because he felt that he did not deserve it after what he had done. He'd be even less likely to think he deserved a hug from his perfect older brother.

Strangely enough, there were promo pictures released with this episode that showed more of a reunion than we saw. No outright hug in the pictures, but they were clasping arms and looking at each other with a lot of emotion. So something happened during the commercial break that we didn't see.

 

I thought that whole scene opened more questions, not because I want him to not have become drunk and gambled away the money, but more regarding the why? Why do that when he was almost home free?

That's the problem I have with that bit. I could deal with him just being a bit of a low-level drunk, but even if the navy wasn't his dream, surely freedom would have been, and he's otherwise been shown to be good at focusing on a goal. It's really hard for me to imagine him gambling away the money he and his brother had earned when they were so close to freedom. There needed to be a lot more context surrounding that bit. Maybe Silver enticed him by suggesting he could double his money and buy his way out without both of them joining the navy. Or maybe he was somewhat "institutionalized" into slavery and secretly feared life in freedom, since slavery was just about all he'd ever experienced. That was a pretty big thing to throw in as a one-off just to set up a story.

 

I've given this some thought, and I think Killian realized that he could forgive himself because he had already forgiven Liam for what he had done?

I think we have a winner here! That makes sense. Liam had done something pretty horrible, then had made an attempted sacrifice when he threw himself in front of Killian and when he let go for his brother's sake, and Killian still loved him and forgave him. So Killian realized that he needed to apply that to himself, since everyone else had already forgiven him.

 

I still think it was all pretty clunky.

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I've been wondering about the whole Emma/Liam dynamic during the episode. I've been wondering if maybe there wasn't some jealousy going on Liam's part because Liam was everything to Killian, and for a long time, he's the only one who loved him, looked out for him, and so this is sort of new for him, that Killian's attentions would be divided like that. Emma is in the UW for no other reason that she loves Killian. Liam sees his brother after centuries, and there's this woman who is just this very huge part of his life.

 

Just a thought. Also not April's Fools.

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I liked the whole "You set the bar so high, all I could do was fail."

 

I saw Killian kind of regress with him in that he became his subordinate rather than just be himself the way I knew him as a viewer.

I liked that Killian became the "younger brother" around Liam.  Usually, Killian is self-assured and cocky, but he did regress emotionally around his brother, and it allowed the audience (and Emma) to see a very different side of him.  She even said as much to Regina.  I like that the character of Hook has these layers.

 

Killian not hugging Liam made sense to me. Killian had just refused to kiss Emma because he felt that he did not deserve it after what he had done. He'd be even less likely to think he deserved a hug from his perfect older brother.

 

That's an interesting take.  It's true that he had just rebuffed Emma for feeling unworthy and then who knocks at the door?  His morally superior older brother that he idolizes to reinforce the point of Killian's failures.  I think Killian is a man always in pursuit of trying to be better.  

 

I think that Killian was the better captain in this episode and in Good Form (other than his depression drinking). He questions situations, collects facts, notices that they are off course and rallies men. With a bit of confidence he is fine.

 

Killian loves the sea.  That's the impression I got from him.  He loves the idea of being out on the ocean as the Captain of a ship able to forge his own destiny, and he doesn't mind at all doing the work.  Liam strikes me more as a man in love with the idea of being an officer, having rank and title.  He felt the King's Navy was a validation of him whereas, I think Killian just wanted to have something to call his own.  I also think Killian is the smarter man in terms of instincts, emotional intelligence (being able to read people), etc., and like you said a better Captain.  I think if the crew had their choice as to who to follow as a Captain, it would be Killian and not Liam.

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It's true that he had just rebuffed Emma for feeling unworthy and then who knocks at the door?  His morally superior older brother that he idolizes to reinforce the point of Killian's failures.

It would have been nice if we'd been allowed to see how that played out. The emotionally shattered and only just then physically healed Killian who won't let Emma kiss him because he feels unworthy coming face-to-face with his idolized older brother, seeing him for the first time in more than a century, should have been a big deal. Since the last time Liam saw him, he went against everything he was trying to be to please Liam. He became a pirate, lost a hand as a consequence of running off with another man's wife, dedicated himself to revenge, went back to Neverland and worked for Pan, and murdered their father. So how did he react after that initial moment of seeing Liam? Did he shy away from a hug? Flee to the back room until Emma dragged him out? Was he ashamed? So happy to see his brother that he forgot about the shame? And how did Liam react? Did he not care about all that because he was glad to see his brother? Did he have a "what the hell happened to you?" upon seeing his brother in black leather, loaded with jewelry and missing a hand? Did he already have the Underworld update on his brother's life, or is this all news to him? They talk about how they don't like to write "kitchen sink" conversation scenes, but they skipped one of the potentially more emotional and conflict-laden scenes in the series in favor of a scene in which the characters sit around the kitchen table and talk. But I guess they were talking about the plot instead of about those boring emotions, so it's okay.

 

I think if the crew had their choice as to who to follow as a Captain, it would be Killian and not Liam.

Well, he did manage to get an entire navy crew to follow him in turning pirate, and apparently they were willing to follow him to Neverland. That says something about what they thought about him.

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(edited)
They talk about how they don't like to write "kitchen sink" conversation scenes, but they skipped one of the potentially more emotional and conflict-laden scenes in the series in favor of a scene in which the characters sit around the kitchen table and talk. But I guess they were talking about the plot instead of about those boring emotions, so it's okay.

 

That's the ironic thing... these episodes in 5B have already had more meaningful "kitchen sink" conversations than previous seasons.  But still present is the underlying problem - of avoiding the obvious simpler character conflicts and issues, in favor of creating this completely ridiculous over-the-top contrivance for the characters to "deal" with, which then is resolved in a single scene at the end.  Liam and Killian had so much unfinished business with the material that they ALREADY had to work with.  Instead, they created a new, way more exaggerated situation, which they resolve with a hug or a sacrifice.  This is exactly the same thing they have done over and over again, from skipping dealing with Robin and Regina's past to give us Frozen Marian, to ignoring the Snow/Charming/Emma relationship to give us the Eggbaby Betrayal, etc.

Edited by Camera One
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I've been wondering about the whole Emma/Liam dynamic during the episode. I've been wondering if maybe there wasn't some jealousy going on Liam's part because Liam was everything to Killian, and for a long time, he's the only one who loved him, looked out for him, and so this is sort of new for him, that Killian's attentions would be divided like that. Emma is in the UW for no other reason that she loves Killian. Liam sees his brother after centuries, and there's this woman who is just this very huge part of his life.

 

That would have been interesting to see. And instead of having Killian awkwardly fill Emma in on his missing hour at the mansion by saying, "Oh, where was I for the past 60 minutes? Well, let me fill you in with some quick dialogue..." why couldn't Emma have followed his trail to the heaven/hell bridge? Why do people constantly go missing in the Underworld and no one really cares unless the plot calls for it? Henry was gone with Cruella for a couple hours and everyone bought his lie about being at Granny's? Was his alibi that he was hanging out with Robin who was also conspicuously missing?

 

It also would have been nice to see the conversation Liam alluded to having with Killian offscreen about the whole Dark One business. "Killian blames himself for ending up here, but he told me what happened. Sounds to me like it's not his fault. It's yours." Why couldn't we have had more conversations like that on screen? It would have been a great opportunity to get inside Killian's head and see more about how his stint as a Dark One has affected him. We also could have gotten a conversation between the two about how Hook turned to piracy after Liam's death and some other long-overdue conversations between the brothers. But alas, that's all character development and not plot-related.

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(edited)

Why do people constantly go missing in the Underworld and no one really cares unless the plot calls for it? Henry was gone with Cruella for a couple hours and everyone bought his lie about being at Granny's? Was his alibi that he was hanging out with Robin who was also conspicuously missing?

This is a really, really good point.

 

I realize they're the heroes, and the Underworld is actually Underbrooke, but shouldn't there be more worry about where everyone is?    No one seems to be worried about where Rumple is, either--and, well, it's not like he doesn't have a track record of betraying them.  

 

For the Underworld, it's distinctly nonthreatening, and the characters are mostly treating it that way.  The characters shouldn't find it  less creepy than Neverland.  That's just wrong.

Edited by Mari
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(edited)

Henry wandering off by himself is the egregious because he's just a kid, and they lost track of him once in Episode 1 and again in Episode 3.  I mean, it's not like they're in Teddy Bear Land.  Torturer Hades can show up at any time and kidnap someone else, you know.  Not to mention all the other creepos around.  Did all the adults have a mind-slip and forget "Granny's" is run by a lady who enjoys the taste of children?

Edited by Camera One
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If I were a writer on the show, I would have had Henry set up a lie where he said he was with Robin at Granny's and that's where he got the information about the book. First, that at least helps explain where the hell Robin has been. Second, that's the perfect set-up for a later episode when Robin comes back and Regina finds out through Robin that Henry was never at Granny's, which gives Regina motivation to question what Henry is hiding. But knowing TS;TW, Henry's mission with Cruella will probably be revealed in the most ham-fisted way possible.

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I am assuming by next episode, everyone would already know through David, so it will be glossed over as always.

 

David alluded that Henry being up in his room alone was teenage rebelliousness/sulkiness, but that completely came out of nowhere.  David could have gotten a bit more screentime in the first few episodes of the arc noticing Henry's weird behavior, so that ending could seem a bit more natural.  Not that I'm complaining David actually got to talk to Henry (for the first time in forever, as Anna would say).

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Liam and Killian had so much unfinished business with the material that they ALREADY had to work with.  Instead, they created a new, way more exaggerated situation, which they resolve with a hug or a sacrifice.

And meanwhile, the material they already had to work with isn't even dealt with. They resolved the exaggerated situation without even touching all the other stuff, as we still don't know what Liam thinks of Killian's life of piracy that started as an attempt to avenge him.

 

Something else that struck me that I doubt the writers even thought of, since they suck at timelines: Killian is actually older than Liam now. They established with Hercules that people in the Underworld are stuck at the age when they died. Even outside Neverland and the curse, Killian has lived at least ten years, probably more like 15 years, after Liam's death, and I don't think Liam was more than five years older than Killian. So there should have been a big role reversal there -- Killian spending all this time thinking about his older brother only to run into him again and find someone he'd think of now as a kid. Liam remembers his brother as a kid, but has been reunited with a grown man. It would have been difficult to play it that way because of the casting -- since we saw Liam die, they're stuck with the casting from "Good Form," when they probably only thought we'd ever see Liam in flashbacks, and there's no way we'd see this Liam as younger than Killian.

 

But even beyond physical age, Killian now has vastly more life experience than Liam. Liam may have traveled a lot as a merchant ship crew member and in the Navy, but his life was short and rather constrained, as he went from being a slave to being in the Navy and then died young. He was never really his own man because even a captain in the Navy has to follow orders of higher officers or the king. I doubt he ever had a serious, long-term romantic relationship. Did he ever have friends other than his brother? On the other hand, Killian has lived an unnaturally long and full life. He's been captain of his own ship for more than a century and answered to no one (other than when he was working for Pan). He had a serious, marriage-like long-term romantic relationship and then had that love die in his arms. It sounds like he's really explored their world, and he's been to Neverland (extensively, not just that brief visit), Wonderland, and New York. He's climbed a beanstalk to the land of the giants, traveled in time, and befriended the daughter of the sea god. He might be ashamed of a lot of the stuff he's done, but at the same time, that gave him a lot of life experience that he's learned from. He's faced the darkness and fought it off. Now he has friends who care enough about him to come to the Underworld after him and a woman who loves him enough to be willing to share her heart with him. So who's Liam to be able to tell him what to do? It's natural to fall back into old family roles, but it would seem like those roles would very quickly show that they no longer fit with those two.

 

Instead of creating a crazy backstory incident, they should have played with this concept, where the younger brother is now the older, wiser one and it takes both of them a while before they realize and accept that.

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i am totally fan wanking that Liam would've done anything to keep his little brother alive...and i think every man on that ship was going to die in that storm, including the Jones boys. I think Hades already knew that but saw the opportunity for some 'fun' ..the kind he could only get because Liam loved his brother so much and was the only candidate on the ship for the kind of deal he had in mind. He was getting those souls anyway...he'd only have let 2 get away if he got something he wanted more...to corrupt a basically good soul in a desperate situation.....

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A little behind here but that Hook episode bored me to tears. I don't dislike his characters but I just can't get engaged with his storylines nonetheless.

Emma and Hook, some okay-ish scenes together I guess and the stuff with Hook's brothers, Hades and the pirates was alright but not really exciting though.

I did find the Cruella/Charming scenes amusing enough.

More intrigued with Hades connection with Zelena though, 5/10

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(edited)

Oddly enough, Killian didn't get enough focus. His views seemed to be suppressed in order to fuel the drama. This was more of a Liam centric than anything. Dethroning him from a seat of righteousness was used to give Killian a reason to stay with Emma. Instead of giving insight into Killian's mind in order to walk through the change, it's all done very externally. A variety of circumstances were contrived in order to service the plot. 

 

It's another example of plot before characters. You can tell because of the holes created.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Oddly enough, Killian didn't get enough focus. His views seemed to be suppressed in order to fuel the drama. This was more of a Liam centric than anything.

 

You're totally right. If this was a true Killian centric, we would have seen exactly how Silver tricked Killian with the gambling and drinking from Killian's perspective. We would have seen what Killian was doing above deck while Liam was making a deal with the devil. We would have seen more of Killian and Liam's first interaction in the Underworld. I had high expectations for this episode because I figured it would be a Hook centric, not a Liam centric. Even all of the Killian/Emma stuff got shortchanged.

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(edited)

Even all of the Killian/Emma stuff got shortchanged.

You're so right...on reflection we had an almost repeat of the 4b final. Emma nearly loses Killian for good and we get a very short reunion scene where he metaphorically shoved her heart back in her chest by saying he's coming back home (survivor!) ). No real in depth discussion about what they've just been through...just kiss and cut to next plot point.

They dressed it up a little but the writers or the director did it to us again!!

Edited by PixiePaws1
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(edited)

You're so right...on reflection we had an almost repeat of the 4b final. Emma nearly loses Killian for good and we get a very short reunion scene where he metaphorically shoved her heart back in her chest by saying he's coming back home (survivor!) ). No real in depth discussion about what they've just been through...just kiss and cut to next plot point.

They dressed it up a little but the writers or the director did it to us again!!

 

I'm hoping the reason why Emma is so underutilised this season is because we're about to get something amazing with her in it. Because to me she's the main protagonist and she's barely on screen. When she is, her scenes are so short they barely matter. After everything she and Hook went through last season I want to see how they're coping with that. Instead it's straight on to the next big bad.

 

Edited because I realised part of this comment was directed at the next episode.

Edited by AudienceofOne
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I'm hoping the reason why Emma is so underutilised this season is because we're about to get something amazing with her in it. Because to me she's the main protagonist and she's barely on screen. When she is, her scenes are so short they barely matter. After everything she and Hook went through last season I want to see how they're coping with that. Instead it's straight on to the next big bad. I mean, did they even leave the loft set this week? Or did they mostly just sit there drinking coffee for the entire episode?

 

Well to be fair, Colin was filming his part in that movie when they started filming 5x16, and they Jen was off the same week as he was. So there could have been a lot less of them. Maybe it didn't happen at the best time, as a CS shipper, I'm glad stuff somewhat gets addressed between them. 

 

I do agree though that 5x15 was a Liam centric. That definitely was not a Killian centric. 

 

I thought 5x14 was well balanced between both Milah and Rumple's POVs, whereas with 5x15, I was a bit short-changed. And the episode was super rushed. The material they threw at the wall would have needed more than 1 episode.

 

I wasn't a huge fan of the resolution between Liam and Killian, and I still don't understand which one turned the pit of fire into what it became. 

 

And Hades seemed to be so shocked that he threw a threat at Killian, and didn't stick around. 

 

Also, they really need to lay off the CGI hair. It's getting to be too much. And it's not required. We know Hades can do tricks with his hair.

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My problem with this one is that it's apparently supposed to be the episode that "fixes" Hook after all the trauma of last season, but the arc doesn't really track for me. He starts out utterly shattered and traumatized, and even after he's physically healed he doesn't believe or even want a second chance at life. Then he learns that his idolized big brother wasn't perfect, and the fact that he can forgive his brother and the fact that his brother was willing to sacrifice for him makes him decide to take the second chance at life and do what it takes to live it. He also seems to be over his trauma from all the torture, though I guess we'll see how that goes in subsequent episodes.

 

But Liam didn't really wrong Killian. He lied to him, but he wronged the other sailors, so Killian is just forgiving him for not being perfect. We never saw Liam react to the kind of person Killian turned out to be, so Liam's acceptance of him doesn't seem to make a difference. There's some stuff in there where they seem to be paralleling Killian comparing himself to seemingly perfect Liam to him comparing himself to Emma's ability to hold out against the darkness, but it doesn't seem like they really went anywhere there, since Liam turned out to have done something horrible, but Emma actually did hold out.

 

It seems to me that Killian's issue is that he hates himself for always giving into darkness so easily. He thought he'd learned his lesson and moved past it, but then he caved when he was made the Dark One. So now he's stuck in this mindset where he believes he's fundamentally a horrible person who's incapable of resisting darkness. What he really needed to move past that was to be shown that he's underestimating his capacity for good and overestimating his capacity for darkness. So instead of tearing Liam down to make him look better, what they needed to do was build him up and let his perfect older brother be impressed by him, let him resist a temptation and do something really good and show that he really has changed. This is where maybe they could have made Liam look bad -- let him give in to temptation in the present while Killian resists. Which did kind of happen, since Killian was tortured for not giving in to what Hades wanted but Liam hopped to it right away with just a threat of blackmail, only they never brought that up at all (I'm not sure they even realized what they did there).

 

The person Hook needs to face to get over the guilt about what he did as Dark One is Merlin. He's the one he killed, and maybe if Merlin were impressed that he ultimately did fight off the darkness and nearly destroyed it, that would be what makes the difference.

 

It seems like they just manufactured some random incident to give Liam unfinished business when they already had some, since Liam died because he lacked faith in his brother's judgment. Having Liam show faith in him now and trust him to do the right thing could have enabled Liam to move on and healed some of the brokenness in Killian.

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The person Hook needs to face to get over the guilt about what he did as Dark One is Merlin. He's the one he killed,

 

They didn't explicitly mention that, so maybe we're supposed to forget about it.

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The person Hook needs to face to get over the guilt about what he did as Dark One is Merlin.

 

Merlin pretty much rolled out the red carpet for his own death. He sees the future, sets up Arthur to believe his false prophecy, warns Young!Emma about Excalibur, doesn't inform Hook that the cut he took was deadly, then brewed up the curse right in Granny's Diner. What was he doing if not actually planning for Dark!Hook to kill him?

 

 

There's some stuff in there where they seem to be paralleling Killian comparing himself to seemingly perfect Liam to him comparing himself to Emma's ability to hold out against the darkness, but it doesn't seem like they really went anywhere there, since Liam turned out to have done something horrible, but Emma actually did hold out.

 

This was my problem with the parallel as well. I saw a lot of people talking about the pedestal Hook puts Emma on, but I've never seen it in the way many portray it. Hook is very well aware of Emma's flaws and he calls her out on her bullshit quite often. What he does do is compare himself with Emma and Emma quite accurately does come off as a better person. Hook was a pirate for centuries. He admits to murdering men for very trivial reasons. He set himself on a quest for vengeance and hurt innocent people in the process. He became the Dark One and instantly murdered a man and threw his friends under the bus (and potentially the entire world, I'm unclear on the Dark Ones snuffing out the light business). Emma has killed two people - one in self-defense and one in defense of her son. She has every reason to be angry at her circumstances and seek vengeance and instead offers forgiveness. She became the Dark One and fought and fought and even after giving in was still a pretty tame Dark One. She didn't even kill anyone. So where exactly was he wrong about Emma setting the bar really high and believing himself unworthy?

 

With Liam, the false belief in absolute goodness was definitely a problem for Hook and seemingly had been since childhood. However, how does Liam being a screw up help Hook deal with his feelings regarding his actions as the Dark One when his comparison of himself to Emma was accurate? I guess the point was that he realized he could forgive his brother for lying to him and screwing them all over with the pages and still see him as worthy of saving, so he applied that to himself with Emma & Co. Maybe? I thought the whole thing was pretty badly done.

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I agree so much with the discussion today. It wasn't a Killian centric. It was bumming me out a bit that the weakest episode so far this arc (imo) is the one that I thought I would for sure enjoy seeing as Emma and Killian are my faves. But viewing it as it really is, a Liam centric, it's not as much of a bummer because I never liked Liam so I probably wouldn't love a centric for him. 

 

I am disappointed that they took a centric for Killian and gave the majority of the pov to Liam. There was so much potential in a storyline about Killian struggling with what he had done as a dark one, making amends with Merlin if he's around, him and Emma coming to terms with what they both did and how to move on from that, and him realizing that he wants to fight, he wants to keep living. But it was all about Liam and realizing he wasn't perfect (and in fact helped orchestrate the deaths of lots of people). Killian didn't have any organic character growth or revelation. He simply found out that his brother is deeply flawed *ahem murderer* and if his brother isn't perfect than he doesn't have to judge himself so harshly. Unfortunately, that is some wonky morality and doesn't really address his most recent actions as a dark one. His brother ensuring the deaths of all those sailors in the hopes of getting a better life for himself and Killian doesn't have much to do with Killian succumbing to darkness and revenge after being turned into be a dark one. 

 

Why does learning about what Liam did make him feel okay about what he did? Because Liam did something heinous without the influence of dark one goo and their situations were in no way similar. You shouldn't forgive yourself because you found out someone else did something worse than you did (even if that someone is your big brother who you idolize). I know what they were going for, Liam's on a pedestal blah blah, but it really did not work for me. 

 

I was hoping for more conversation between him and Emma. They also had very little focus in an episode that was set up perfectly to explore their issues. Emma, after apologizing for many things that she should not have apologized for, doesn't think to apologize or at least admit culpability in the dark one mess seeing as she made him a dark one even though he expressly asked her not to? He's blaming himself for everything and directly comparing himself to her and how she resisted so well. Might have been a good time to say something about how it's not totally his fault seeing as he asked to die rather than turn rumpley. And then there could have been a conversation that could have truly addressed imbalances and got to the heart of the things he said as dark one that were rooted somewhat in the truth. 

 

I don't mean to sound anti-Emma, I love her character, but I thought that was a writing fail. Killian was essentially saying "I'm the worst, I was so weak, I don't deserve a second chance. Look how well you did and I just fucked everything up." And her response was pretty much, "Yeahhhh. But I love you." Why bring these issues up if there won't be any satisfying resolution? Anytime they try to have character moments or emotional moments they are too shallow to resonate.

 

ooooo boy, sorry for the rant lol 

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That's the writing for you.  It was supposed to be about Killian's big breakthrough.  BUT they were so obsessed with the twist that Liam was a mass-murderer and made a deal with Hades that they forgot the supposed point of a centric.  Not the first time, and certainly won't be the last.

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I'm glad that Killian understands Emma made him a DO out of love..but would have been nice if she'd had a line to acknowledge the major reason she staved off the Darkness for so long was due to his unwavering support and belief in her.He didn't have that and that surely contributed. i have to wonder if he'd have succumbed so quickly if Emma had been waiting for him to come out of the vault and offered him the sword immediately.

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