S05.E15: The Brothers Jones

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Once Upon A Time Visits The City (Of The Damned) Of Brotherly Love
Hook learns his brother wasn't the saint he believed him to be, and Henry gets magic powers again. (Just what everyone wanted.) At least Cruella's having fun!

[Panopticon]

Huh. I seem to have stepped into backwards world, where in an episode heavy on the Jones brothers and Captain Swan, my favorite part was Regina.

 

(Count me on the team that thinks that this episode didn't mesh well enough with Good Form. I wasn't bored and didn't have problems with any of the actors, but it just didn't hit me emotionally because I was too busy fruitlessly trying to resolve backstory.)

 

I didn't miss Robin. Or Rumple. Or Belle. Or Zelena. Or... anyone, really. 

[Camera One]

It also seems to me that if Liam was in the role of essentially being a parent and guardian to his younger brother, the fact that his kid brother was a drunken, gambling screwup reflects badly on him. He didn't do his job very well.

 

I don't think it's fair to judge Liam like that.  Liam was also a slave, trying constantly to free both of them.  He didn't choose to be the parent/guardian and he had that role thrust upon him as a child.  Just like in everyday life, you can't control the personality or coping mechanisms of your younger siblings or your children, no matter how much you care about them or try to do your best by them.  Especially when you're scrubbing decks yourself all day.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Because they are things that take a long time and special training to learn. Proper navigational techniques and use of tools like the sextant from Good Form is not just something you pick up by osmosis whilst mopping up fish guts, especially if you're drunk all the time. People who don't start writing until later in life are going to have to work really hard to get that elegant handwriting. Plus, Killian was completely at ease at that ball with Emma. Sorry, but it just doesn't scan.

Logically, I would agree. But in this Show, people apparently become skilled swordsmen and markswomen in a single day. A couple of years in the Navy would make Killian practically an expert.

The flashbacks have tended to become shallower in the last couple of seasons. They almost play like morality tales, with trite storylines and pithy lessons.

[Camera One]

The flashbacks have tended to become shallower in the last couple of seasons. They almost play like morality tales, with trite storylines and pithy lessons.

 

I think they've always been that shallow.  It's just that this half-season, there is a clear purpose/moralizing message to them, so it seems more clunky than usual.

 

Henry seemed hella resentful when he told Charming he didn't want a lesson when his poor grandfather was expressing what a horrible day he had.  Sheesh...

Edited March 28, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

So, I think my biggest disappointment in this episode was the lack of weight given to Liam and Killians relationship. When they saw each other, there should have been more emotion, more drama, more...something.

 

You can get caught up in the scenes you missed with the promo stills. 

[InsertWordHere]

While I am still having trouble reconciling this Killian with the one we saw in Good Form, I do think this episode does a good job of smoothing out some of Liam's actions in Neverland. His refusal to believe the truth about the dream shade becomes less a matter of blind faith in his king and more an unwillingness to risk the position he had basically bought with the souls of Silver's crew. Scoffing at his brother's talk of honor and good form becomes disbelief in the judgement of the brother who drunkenly gambled away their future a year or two before. 

[MedievalGirl]

Yes, InsertWordHere! Liam had a dark streak and he was very concerned to have Killian think well of him. I do think Liam may have had an inkling of what the Dreamshade could do but absolutely needed Killian to believe in their King and Navy. Again, and again Liam has sacrificed himself and others for his little brother. Finally, Killian perceives himself worthy of that sacrifice. 

[KingOfHearts]

Whoever wrote Regina's lines in this episode must not be used to writing for her. She seemed like a totally different person. (But in a good way.) The A&E Regina Bible requires victimization, Mary Sueing, and inconsiderate snark. Regina showed remorse, didn't get rewarded, and said only supportive things. What world is this?

[Camera One]

Yes, I liked how they used her.  Though I laughed and wondered what everyone thought when she said she was a lot like Hook.

[Mathius]

While I am still having trouble reconciling this Killian with the one we saw in Good Form

I don't have trouble at all, I thought that last scene with him seeing the Jewel of the Realm and him swearing to be a hero like Liam segweyed into that Killian well.

I have accepted that Hook and Emma are going to be a thing big why does the show have to continue to torture me with such amazing Regina/Emma scenes and then have Hook be a Douche?

"Continue"? When did they start, it's usually the other way around, Regina being a douche and Hook/Emma getting good scenes (remember Regina trying to control Emma with the dagger, followed by Hook getting the result she wanted just through talking with Emma?) Regina and her friendship with Emma was great here, but let's not pretend that this is the norm. Edited March 28, 2016 by Mathius

[Chaos Theory]

I don't have trouble at all, I thought that last scene with him seeing the Jewel of the Realm and him swearing to be a hero like Liam segweyed into that Killian well.

"Continue"? When did they start, it's usually the other way around, Regina being a douche and Hook/Emma getting good scenes (remember Regina trying to control Emma with the dagger, followed by Hook getting the result she wanted just through talking with Emma?) Regina and her friendship with Emma was great here, but let's not pretend that this is the norm.

The People Who Hate Regina read that scene entirely differently then The People Who Like Regina. Emma gave Regina the knife for that exact reason she had the balls to use it if necessary. She wanted Regina to use it if necessary. Everyone else in the group when out of their way not to use it. They would have let DarkEmma kill them rarher then use the knife which I thought was stupid and short sighted.

I dislike Hook which is why I am trying to work around my own People Who Hate Hook feels and am trying to see the scene as it meant to be seen but I honestly only saw Hook acting like a petulant ass when Emma did everything she could to help him and even tried to get along with his brother her blamed her for things beyond her control.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[Mathius]

The People Who Hate Regina read that scene entirely differently then The People Who Like Regina. Emma gave Regina the knife for that exact reason she had the balls to use it if necessary. She wanted Regina to use it if necessary.

No, Emma gave Regina the knife to use to stop her or even kill her if necessary if she was doing something bad, she did NOT say or mean "control me when you personally think/feel I should be telling you something personal." And Hook getting it out of Emma on his own without the knife proved that it was NOT necessary for Regina to use the knife at that time, at all.

even tried to get along with his brother who blamed her for things beyond her control

What? Emma absolutely had control when turning Hook into a Dark One. Nobody forced her to do that, Hook was begging her not to do it and just let him go, but she did it of her own free will because she didn't want to lose another loved one. Emma's reasons for her actions are understandable and sympathetic, but she absolutely had control over them.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Mathius

[Serena]

Whoever wrote Regina's lines in this episode must not be used to writing for her. She seemed like a totally different person. (But in a good way.) The A&E Regina Bible requires victimization, Mary Sueing, and inconsiderate snark. Regina showed remorse, didn't get rewarded, and said only supportive things. What world is this?

Yes! David H. Goodman, right? He's supposed to be an Hook writer, but how about we switch him to a Regina writer instead?

What? Emma absolutely had control when turning Hook into a Dark One. Nobody forced her to do that, Hook was begging her not to do it and just let him go, but she did it of her own free will because she didn't want to lose another loved one. Emma's reasons for her actions are understandable and sympathetic, but she absolutely had control over them.

I agree. I mean, I went "Shut up, Liam." anyway because Liam is a douche, and if Emma HAD let him die I would have sent A&E a strongly worded letter, but morally it was the wrong thing to do simply because HE didn't want her to do it. 

[iMonrey]

Is the well that Liam threw the pages down the same well they always go to in Storybrooke (the one that sorta-kinda leads to the Enchanted Forest)? Of was it just some other well outside the Sorcerer's mansion? Because if it's the former I wonder where it leads to in the Underworld. Maybe . . . Storybrooke?

 

I guess I just don't see what the hell Hook felt so guilty about. He didn't choose to become a Dark One - Emma did that to him against his will. And so what if he "embraced" the darkness. So did Emma, to an extent. I'm not sure what measure he's using to compare Emma's so-called embracing of the Darkness to his own to any other Dark One for that matter. 

[CheshireCat]

KingOfHearts, on 28 Mar 2016 - 3:25 PM, said:

Whoever wrote Regina's lines in this episode must not be used to writing for her. She seemed like a totally different person. (But in a good way.) The A&E Regina Bible requires victimization, Mary Sueing, and inconsiderate snark. Regina showed remorse, didn't get rewarded, and said only supportive things. What world is this?

 

It's interesting, as someone who likes Regina I felt that this scene was right on par with her development. For example, when Emma was about to kill Lily in S4, Regina was quite level-headed, and non-sarcastic, too.

 

One question which occured to me - does Hook not know that Emma can tell when someone's lying? I'm assuming that when Emma confronted Liam at the well, she was sure he had been lying because of her "Super Power"? I understand that Hook may not want to believe her but her "Super Power" combined with her telling him that he only needed to look at Liam's hands should have been enough for him to doubt his brother, shouldn't it?

[Curio]

Enough people have said this already, but I'll repeat it—WAY TOO RUSHED, WRITERS. BAD FORM!
 

Hook: "You think if you can prove that Liam is a villain, then I'll somehow feel like I was less of one."

Well, at least the writers are finally recognizing their annoying tendency to tear down the heroes to make the other characters look better by comparison. Though it's a bold choice to have one of the characters actually call out this tendency on the show...
 
I'm a bit shocked by the amount of people shouting "retcon" over the Killian/Liam flashback, but I guess I didn't have a difficult time imagining Colin and Bernard as being older teenagers or young twenty-somethings in the flashbacks. (Maybe it's because of my former training from watching Boardwalk Empire where they tried to convince you that 40-something actors were actually 18 years old.) I also don't have a difficult time imagining Killian and Liam training for a few years in the Navy between this flashback and Good Form. 
 
I also don't equate young Killian having a drinking and gambling problem as being mutually exclusive to him being a decent young man who still had a good moral compass when it came to helping the other sailors, but occasionally slipped into his temper when he was pushed too far. Honestly, I give Liam huge props for being so level-headed and ambitious after being a slave for that long, and I probably would have acted more like Killian if that had been my entire childhood and young adulthood. I thought showing Killian having a drinking problem as early as his teens was a valid decision by the writers to show that Hook's alcoholism is a serious thing (something the show has only glanced over, but never outright said he has besides the whole "one handed pirate with a drinking problem" line), and since alcoholics tend to have obsessive and addictive personalities based on genetics, it's in character for Hook to be shown having those tendencies as early as his teenage years. I viewed Killian's flashback like I would a coming-of-age high school/college party movie where the kid is just learning about how wonderful drinking is because it makes him forget how shitty his life is, and because he's still relatively new to the drinking/gambling culture, he's more impressionable and doesn't know when to stop. Personally, I always had a head canon that Killian might have had a bit of a drinking problem before he was in the Navy, just because the way Colin said, "Does anyone know what happens to sailors who drink rum? They get drunk, and drunkenness leads to bad form," in 3x05 made it seem like Killian was speaking from experience.
 

Yes, I liked how they used her. Though I laughed and wondered what everyone thought when she said she was a lot like Hook.

 
I laughed, and then remembered the post I made about that exact same topic in the villains thread.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Curio

[Delphi]

Yes, I liked how they used her. Though I laughed and wondered what everyone thought when she said she was a lot like Hook.

I actually didn't mind that line. It made me think of their villain talk on the way to Neverland. I actually think it would be good for Regina's character to have more scenes with Hook.

[Serena]

I guess I just don't see what the hell Hook felt so guilty about. He didn't choose to become a Dark One - Emma did that to him against his will. And so what if he "embraced" the darkness. So did Emma, to an extent. I'm not sure what measure he's using to compare Emma's so-called embracing of the Darkness to his own to any other Dark One for that matter. 

Attempt to murder their entire group of friends and unleash the Dark Ones on the world plus killing Merlin, VS Emma's taking Violet's heart (for a good reason) plus making him a Dark One to save his life, and her biggest sin, THAT HAIR.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Serena

[KingOfHearts]

 

It's interesting, as someone who likes Regina I felt that this scene was right on par with her development

 

I think, given her redemption, it does make sense. I only blink because many times the writers through in some rude remark or backwards thinking despite her development. Yet somehow none of that was in this episode

 

I commend the writers (and Colin) for keeping Killian a realistic character here. He didn't just throw himself on Liam's side to drive the tension. They did a good job of making Olympus look appealing without cheapening his love for Emma. It was so much better than the Emma/Neal/Tamara stuff. The only character I really took issue with was Liam. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[CheshireCat]

KingOfHearts, on 28 Mar 2016 - 4:53 PM, said:

I think, given her redemption, it does make sense. I only blink because many times the writers through in some rude remark or backwards thinking despite her development. Yet somehow none of that was in this Episode

 

 

One could argue that that's who she is. Temper, fire and sarcasm is a part of her and that's how she deals with certain situations. I guess, it's not everyone's cup of tea though. Personally, I wouldn't like it if she lost all of it, but that's me. (and I guess, that's something that shouldn't be discussed in the episode thread further?!)

[Bishop]

I dislike Hook which is why I am trying to work around my own People Who Hate Hook feels and am trying to see the scene as it meant to be seen but I honestly only saw Hook acting like a petulant ass when Emma did everything she could to help him and even tried to get along with his brother her blamed her for things beyond her control.

Emma turned Killian, against his will and without his consent, into the darkest being in the realm because she couldn't bear to lose him.  She would rather have him dark and evil and with her rather than not have him in her life.  She took away his choice.  How is that not douchery behavior?

One question which occured to me - does Hook not know that Emma can tell when someone's lying? I'm assuming that when Emma confronted Liam at the well, she was sure he had been lying because of her "Super Power"? I understand that Hook may not want to believe her but her "Super Power" combined with her telling him that he only needed to look at Liam's hands should have been enough for him to doubt his brother, shouldn't it?

Yes, Emma still has that superpower, but Killian has an impressive BS meter all his own.  He was able to tell when Emma wasn't telling him the whole truth, and even last night, he sensed immediately that something had happened between her and Liam.  Both Killian and Emma are good at reading other people - and each other.  Regarding why Hook didn't trust Emma's superpower is because it was his brother, and he couldn't accept that there was anything to tarnish the halo he had put around his brother.  jmho

Edited March 28, 2016 by Bishop

[Serena]

Usually Killian believes her superpower (and not be fair, her superpower has NEVER told her people were lying when they were telling the truth. It doesn't always work, but when it does, it's never wrong) but this week he was a douche he was way too emotional about his brother and didn't want to admit the truth. Or maybe Liam's doucheness is contagious (does it show I don't like Liam?).

[AudienceofOne]

And now we're verging into the disturbing territory of "people aren't responsible for the things they do as the Dark One except for Emma". Which is the same issue I have with the "self-defence is not murder except for Emma" thing.

 

If people are responsible for their Dark One behaviour then what Emma did was selfish and short sighted and took away Hook's right to self-determination. But if that's the case then Hook and Rumple are completely responsible for everything they did as well. And what they did while the Dark One was far far worse than Emma. If they are not responsible for their behaviour as the Dark One then neither is Emma.

 

And if the argument is that one's behaviour as the Dark One is influenced by their own personality then, sorry, but Hook and Rumple are far worse here too. Emma is motivated, as always, by a desire to fix everything while Hook is apparently driven to destroy (others and then himself) and Rumple driven to dominate.

 

And the biggest elephant in this "Dark One" room - the writers made it possible for somebody to become a Dark One who didn't want to be. That person is then overtaken by the Darkness. And that means that none of the Dark Ones are responsible for anything they did, because it was the Darkness that did it. And in that case, Killian and Emma are no more responsible for anything they did than any other Dark One in history. Which takes Rumple off the hook. Again.

 

So if people are struggling with multiple interpretations of culpability (and frankly influenced by their own character prejudices) it's because the showrunners have diluted the entire point of the Dark One in the first place - which is that you choose to be Dark.

 

In that case, Killian is right to be feel guilty about his behaviour as the Dark One regardless of how he became one in the first place. And Emma is right to try to rescue him from the Hell she drove him to. And Rumple is just the worst human being who ever lived. And I, as a viewer, am going to just take their characters as they are because to do anything else is to drive around in endless circles trying to work this shit out.

[Shanna Marie]

Whoever wrote Regina's lines in this episode must not be used to writing for her. She seemed like a totally different person. (But in a good way.) The A&E Regina Bible requires victimization, Mary Sueing, and inconsiderate snark. Regina showed remorse, didn't get rewarded, and said only supportive things. What world is this?

I liked the scene, but the problem is that it was so disconnected from everything else we've seen -- the Regina who lets the others grovel to her but has yet to apologize or own up to her own wrongs, who claims she has no regrets, and who acts like someone embarrassed by having her teenage nerdiness brought up when someone mentions village slaughter. We've seen no sign of her having any remorse or self-loathing up to this point, no sign that she doesn't forgive herself. For the most part, she excuses or justifies herself or says she's a different person now, like it doesn't even count.

 

No, Hook explained exactly why he felt the way he did, and it was because he gave into the darkness immediately.  He felt that all the progress he made towards redemption in season four was mitigated when he gave into the darkness as a Dark One.  Killian ignored the fact that he was able to make the noble sacrifice in the end.

I think we're referring to two entirely different things here. I was talking about the speech he gave Emma back in 4B when he was trying to keep her from going dark in spite of Rumple's efforts, when she was upset about learning about her parents and the eggbabynapping. She asked him how he turned away from darkness, and he talked about trying to get back to being the good man he used to be. This episode, though, makes it look like him being a good man was more of a temporary state and not the way he naturally was before Liam's death and then Milah's death sent him over the edge. And that speech also does fit in with the way he was feeling in this episode, where he thought he'd come so far and had learned to turn away from darkness, only to give in immediately the moment he became a Dark One. That would be enough to convince him that maybe he really was bad, after all.

[ParadoxLost]

I also don't equate young Killian having a drinking and gambling problem as being mutually exclusive to him being a decent young man who still had a good moral compass when it came to helping the other sailors, but occasionally slipped into his temper when he was pushed too far.

 

My initial reaction to that scene was that Killian was set up by Captain Silver, but everyone else seems to be taking it at face value.  It just seemed to me that Silver was being disingenuous about not caring whether they bought their way out or worked.  And there was something about Killian's reaction that was more 'I have no idea how this happened' than 'how could I have done this.' 

[Rumsy4]

My initial reaction to that scene was that Killian was set up by Captain Silver, but everyone else seems to be taking it at face value. It just seemed to me that Silver was being disingenuous about not caring whether they bought their way out or worked. And there was something about Killian's reaction that was more 'I have no idea how this happened' than 'how could I have done this.'

Captain Silver absolutely set it up. He knew Killian's weakness for alcohol, and exploited it. That's why Liam was so angry with him. I don't understand why being a teenage screw-up is supposed to equate to "darkness". He wasn't going around pillaging and plundering. He was bent on saving the crew of the ship from death. So it is not a contradiction when Killian told Emma he wanted to be a good person again. Even if we go by the strictest of definitions, why couldn't he have been referring to his days in the Navy? Is it invalidated by his past mistakes? I don't think so.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Rumsy4

[OnceUponAJen]

You know, Liam is STILL TSTL. I was a little surprised that he took a drink of the scotch Hades offered him. Amateur move, Liam. Amateur move.

Edited March 28, 2016 by OnceUponAJen

[Camera One]

The whole scotch thing was pointless anyway.  They throw away lines like it's organic waste or something.

[Curio]

I don't understand why being a teenage screw-up is supposed to equate to "darkness". He wasn't going around pillaging and plundering.

 

According to this thread, I guess I was a total screw up in college who had so much "darkness" in me and wasn't a good person because I got drunk and had a few bad hangovers a couple times.

[RachelKM]

And now we're verging into the disturbing territory of "people aren't responsible for the things they do as the Dark One except for Emma". Which is the same issue I have with the "self-defence is not murder except for Emma" thing.

 

If people are responsible for their Dark One behaviour then what Emma did was selfish and short sighted and took away Hook's right to self-determination. But if that's the case then Hook and Rumple are completely responsible for everything they did as well. And what they did while the Dark One was far far worse than Emma. If they are not responsible for their behaviour as the Dark One then neither is Emma.

 

And if the argument is that one's behaviour as the Dark One is influenced by their own personality then, sorry, but Hook and Rumple are far worse here too. Emma is motivated, as always, by a desire to fix everything while Hook is apparently driven to destroy (others and then himself) and Rumple driven to dominate.

 

And the biggest elephant in this "Dark One" room - the writers made it possible for somebody to become a Dark One who didn't want to be. That person is then overtaken by the Darkness. And that means that none of the Dark Ones are responsible for anything they did, because it was the Darkness that did it. And in that case, Killian and Emma are no more responsible for anything they did than any other Dark One in history. Which takes Rumple off the hook. Again.

 

So if people are struggling with multiple interpretations of culpability (and frankly influenced by their own character prejudices) it's because the showrunners have diluted the entire point of the Dark One in the first place - which is that you choose to be Dark.

 

In that case, Killian is right to be feel guilty about his behaviour as the Dark One regardless of how he became one in the first place. And Emma is right to try to rescue him from the Hell she drove him to. And Rumple is just the worst human being who ever lived. And I, as a viewer, am going to just take their characters as they are because to do anything else is to drive around in endless circles trying to work this shit out.

I understand what your saying with regard to Killian and Emma.  And I agree, not holding Killian responsible for his actions at ALL is overly simplified, particularly where Emma is being called out for being selfish in turning him against his will. But I do thing the "against his will" part is the sticking point for two reasons - 1) however good her intentions in accepting the role of the DarkOne, she did so with knowledge of what it might do to her which makes her a little more culpable for her choices as the DarkOne and 2) though the DarkOne-ness made have made her more susceptible to choising to make Killian a DarkOne to keep him with her, it doesn't feel enough different from who she is and the choices she might make as herself.  But in general, I think people need to cut her a little slack.

 

I also think Emma and Killian deserve a little credit for finding and retaining their nobility even while technically DarkOnes.

 

All that said, I don't know that we have to see Rumple the same way.  He gave in fully to the DarkOne-ness in a way neither Emma nor Killian seemed to totally do and even after being freed, intentionally got it back.  Rumple chose to become the DarkOne TWICE (and one time failed to give it up with true loves kiss), both times for selfish reasons and the latter with full knowledge of the evil he was signing on to.  The betrayal Belle and their life together (and of Killian's Sacrifice) and the choice to become an evil creature was done with absolute understanding of what would follow.  To me, that carries additional culpability.

[didia]

I really liked the episode. I know it could be better, with a more emotional reunion, and a slower pace, but I really enjoyed it.

 

We all know Killian loved and idolized his brother. In his own words Liam was all he had left., so I don’t see why people are making such a big deal that once in his life he decided to go against Emma’s gut and trust his brother. I would’ve acted so much worse if upon meeting my parents for 5 minutes a boyfriend/ husband said they were lying to me. It is only normal that Killian feels that he knows Liam better than Emma does. He is the one person who never abandoned him, put him first and stayed with him until the day he died. Hook wouldn't be the character that I like if he could dismiss it all so he  could be on Emma’s side. He wasn't been a douche, he was acting like a normal person would. I really liked that they didn't put Hook in a situation where he had to choose go with Liam or Emma. It was so much more than that. He had to face his demons, and forgive himself. He had to accept that Emma and Liam aren't perfect, and he probably shouldn't try to measure himself with others. Noone deserves to be in a pedestal.

 

.I don’t think the flashbacks destroy what we saw in “Good Form”. If he was supposed to be a teenager, he had plenty of time to change. As some people already said: having a problem with drink and gambling doesn't make one dark or a bad person. He was a troubled young man but it doesn't mean he would become a Malcolm/Pan.  It could be a fase. Once his brother “saved his life” he promised he would change and he did. They would have to train to become naval officers. I believe they would go into some academy, or at least have older officials showing the basics. He could have attended some balls as a navy officer. Depending on how valuable that rock was, the king must have taken special interest in their education, and having a so powerful benefactor, would take them places even faster. It is probably why the king chose Liam to be the captain to go to Neverland, he thought Liam was good at finding difficult magic objects. Even as a servant Killian showed leadership skills, giving orders to the men, and talent as a navigator.

 

I liked that Hook had to deal with his guilt, his tendency to hero worship the people that he loves and his self loathing issues. It is a surprise to noone that they are intertwined. I'm glad he finally accepted that he is Worth to be saved. I do agree that they didn't have to make Liam’s secret so dark. His dark secret could be that he had his own doubts about the king but was too afraid to discover the truth because he loved the life he had, or simply that he couldn't forgive himself for living Killian alone.

 

I really enjoyed Henry’s arc, his plan actually seems clever.  The scenes between David and Cruella were hilarious. I miss the Charmings, I hope they finally have something interesting to do on the show. I was surprised about James’ reasons to dislike David. I expected him to want to take David’s place to go back in a “nothing personal” way, or be mad that Charming pretended to be him. He could even, somehow, have the fake memories that the author implanted in them during the AU and believe that Snow was his TL or something. I didn't expect that he hated Charming because their mother chose him. I can’t wait for the confrontation. I really miss James, he is fun. Regina was surprisingly nice and understanding in this episode.

 

So, it could be better, but I liked it.

[Shanna Marie]

I don't understand why being a teenage screw-up is supposed to equate to "darkness".

But that's what Liam said about him. He told Emma that Killian had struggled with darkness his whole life.

 

Now, that could have just been Liam being an ass and a self-righteous hypocrite.

 

I do think that Silver set Killian up, but he was taking advantage of a known weakness, and the behavior apparently wasn't out of character for Killian. I wouldn't call his behavior then "dark," but the lifetime of self-loathing seems to me like a retcon. His self-loathing previously seemed to have been linked to the actions he took after Liam's death and how that compared to what he could have been. Now they're making it like his current heroism is in stark contrast to the person he was most of his life, even before he went dark.

[KAOS Agent]

Hook's early Darkness could be coming across that way because the flashbacks were Liam's POV. As the audience, we knew everything that was going on because we saw it all from Liam's perspective. We don't know what went down with Silver and Killian just that he felt like the screw up again and was to blame while Liam nobly ripped up his dream of joining the Navy. Liam looked at his little brother the same way the audience was meant to, but we also knew that Liam was a mass murderer and we knew that he was betraying everyone in the Underworld by once again working for Hades just to cover up his own sins. Who was dark in this scenario and who was just a messed up kid? If Hades had offered Killian that deal on the ship would he have taken it? We just saw Killian endure extreme torture and refuse to deal with the devil. Liam did not. Why would we look to Liam's opinion of Killian as fact?

[Camera One]

The drunkeness didn't come across as "darkness" to me, at least not the way it's usually defined on this show.  It was just a very clunky way to tie in the flashback to Hook dealing with the "darkness" as the Dark One, nothing more, nothing less.

[Dianthus]

I was kinda disappointed with this ep (after really looking forward to it) for most of the reasons already stated here.

For one thing, it completely blew my Liam/Killian backstory headcanon out of the water! Also, I really love it when the Sociopath gets judgemental. If Emma's "way too good" for Killian then you can raise that to the nth power with Regina. I thought maybe I'd looked away at the wrong time and missed the bear hug and back-slapping you might expect when two brothers who meant the world to each other were reunited after a century plus apart. FFS, Show!

Having said that, I can kinda see how drunken screw-up Killian becomes uptight Naval officer. Sometimes it's the converts who are the most zealous. Good Form gave him a path to follow, and he clung to it, even in a twisted way after Liam's death and his own descent into darkness. Even as a DO, he healed 'hero' Rumple before their duel. I thought that was awful big of him, considering.

[InsertWordHere]

According to this thread, I guess I was a total screw up in college who had so much "darkness" in me and wasn't a good person because I got drunk and had a few bad hangovers a couple times.

I can't speak for the others who are dissatisfied with the Killian in the flashbacks, but I don't view him as not being good or having an abnormal amount of darkness, nor do I really consider this a retcon from Good Form. Going against my preferred headcanon does not make it a retcon. I am not sure I would even describe him as a screw up, as I agree that it seemed like Silver set him up, not with the drinking, but with the gambling and that he purposely sent Liam away to do so. I do think he was portrayed as a sort of deadweight that was tying the enterprising Liam down ("must be exhausting protecting little brother from himself"), but that ended up being turned on its head by the way Killian took charge during the storm while Liam succumbed to darkness. 

 

I am disappointed because I simply prefer the Good Form Killian as the starting point for the Hook we have today as opposed to a 2 or three year blip on the radar of Hook's very long life. That's all. Being dissatisfied with a character's backstory does not mean I would judge a real person for doing something similar to a character on a television show. However, I do have to ask myself how I would react if this flashback was given to a character I am not as inclined to like and I am not sure my character biases wouldn't cause me to judge those characters more harshly. 

Edited March 29, 2016 by InsertWordHere

[KAOS Agent]

Hook got drunk and made a mistake.  It's happened to many, many people. The consequences for him were high, but he was no different than any kid his age. However, this incident apparently taught him something about the effectiveness in using alcohol to get people to make mistakes since he told Emma that getting people drunk was usually his tactic. It was about lowering someone's inhibitions and shockingly, we saw Silver getting someone drunk for a reason that did not involve getting laid. Who knew that there could possibly be other reasons to get someone drunk?

Edited March 29, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[dr pepper]

Ok, i've said before i don't like that they're using the disney versions of everyone. And the mis matched genres they've mixed together.

But they reached a new low this time. Hades making a deal with a desperate sailor caught in a storm? Nah-uh. The ocean is strictly Poseidon's territory, Hades has no power there at all, certainly not to determine who lives or dies.

[InsertWordHere]

However, this incident apparently taught him something about the effectiveness in using alcohol to get people to make mistakes since he told Emma that getting people drunk was usually his tactic. It was about lowering someone's inhibitions and shockingly, we saw Silver getting someone drunk for a reason that did not involve getting laid. Who knew that there could possibly be other reasons to get someone drunk?

OMG! I take back all the disappointment I expressed in this episode, as it gave us a canon example for an argument I have used in several erm, spirited debates about that line in Snow Drifts. If Hook got someone drunk and stole their fortune I don't think I would be blaming the victim. Thank you, KAOS Agent, thank you (I mean this sincerely in case it reads as sarcastic)!

[Dianthus]

I don't think we're supposed to see Liam as a murderer (unlike the Queen of Crushing Hearts). Technically, he's a sell-out, just like Brennan. Killian was afraid of being like his father, but it's really Liam. He's the one who traded the lives of others for the chance at a better future. Killian's been comparing himself to his idealized version of Liam for so long, but he's the one who's the better Captain, and the better man.

Of course Emma took more crap for what she did. Of course. That's how this works. Emma gets crap, and Regina gets all the shine-y. SMH!

[kitticup]

This episode broke my heart and not in a good way.

We are always short changed with hook, especially when compared with Regina and Rumple. It's like the f-Ing Neverland arc. They have to shoe in rumple and Regina and explore their issues while leaving little for Hook who is cannonly from Neverland. Here in the Underworld, we don't get any of the emotionally moments with Hook and his loved ones.

Hook doesn't get to see Milah, the woman he spent centuries trying to avenge. Instead she gets damned for all eternity after giving Rumple and Milah a meaty emotional scene. The writers better make sure that Rumple loses his kid and more as the price for his wretchedness. Of course, the writers probably agree with Rumple that Milah had it coming.

It is obvious that these writers are not close to their siblings, assuming they have any. I am very close with my sister and it took me a long time to understand that most sisters don't have the same bond. My bond with my brother is closer to most people with their sibling. Nothing in Hook and Liam's reunion showed the warmth, love, caring, emotion that truly close brothers would have. There should have been hugging, shiny eyes, more hugging, exclamations of joy and desire to know everything and expresssions of love no matter what has happened. The reunion basically didn't happen. Yet again we are robbed of the emotionally beats for Hook. Just like the non-reunion with Milah, or when Emma replaced his heart or rescued him in the Underworld and all the Neverbacks with Pan, Tink and Bae we should have seen.

I hated the flashback. Going into the show I was excited. They had Capt Silver. The soundtrack sounded ominous. I was hoping to see a battle at sea with Silver taking over the merchant ship that Hook and Liam worked on. I wanted to see some excitement. You could have Liam kill someone in cold blood who had been harassing the boys in mielu of the battle that would have been interesting. Instead we got crap.

They refuse to do anything interesting with hook's background. His last name is Jones, he's a sailor, so Davy Jones as his father would have been a great fit unlike Rumple and Pan. Of course can't have that because Regina and Rumple have to be tied to all arcs no matter how nonsensical. We can't give Hook an interesting childhood.

Frankly, I was one of the people that complained about Lt. Jones being too earnest to become a devil may care pirate, but if this flashback was an attempt to fix that, it was an epic fail. As someone said upthread, everything the writers have done is to preclude any interesting stories for Hook. I don't see how a drunken wastrel becomes a upstanding soldier than a successful pirate captain with a devil may care attitude or revenge driven pirate. Where is the intelligence, the resourcefulness, the passion, and the ability to face whatever life has to offer, that are the innate characteristics of Hook I like? The drunk we saw would be incapable of pulling himself up and would crumple at any setback.

They need to get a new writer for Hook episodes, who actually likes Hook as Hook not as some angst driven loser emo. I never thought Hook was so driven by self loathing. He had some but now it's gone way overboard and it is not interesting. I want the passionate, fun, resourceful hook back. I want him to be more than Emma's love interest and want no more emo angst. The two Hook episodes this season have done nothing for the character. In fact have done everything they can to undermine the character. This needs to stop ASAP. I am very close to ending my viewership

The b-story was way better. I liked Henry, cruela and charming. However , I have zero interest in anything with Regina and Rumple, except to see Rumple get his comeuppance, so I will likely miss the finale.

Edited March 29, 2016 by kitticup

[YaddaYadda]

Usually Killian believes her superpower (and not be fair, her superpower has NEVER told her people were lying when they were telling the truth. It doesn't always work, but when it does, it's never wrong) but this week he was a douche he was way too emotional about his brother and didn't want to admit the truth. Or maybe Liam's doucheness is contagious (does it show I don't like Liam?).

 

I don't think it's a matter of him not believing her superpower. He wants to go after her the moment she walks away, but Liam stops him, and shows his hand when he does that, and everything just goes to hell a second later with Silver and crew showing up.

 

But Killian does want to go after Emma.

[RadioGirl27]

I really liked the episode. I know it could be better, with a more emotional reunion, and a slower pace, but I really enjoyed it.

Now that I have finally seen the episode, this is pretty much my stance too. Maybe it's my love for Killian/Colin, the minimal Regina, the fact that Rumple wasn't there or that I have set the bar so low for this show that it's almost nonexistent, but I have enjoyed it.

 

We are always short changed with hook, especially when compared with Regina and Rumple. It's like the f-Ing Neverland arc. They have to shoe in rumple and Regina and explore their issues while leaving little for Hook who is cannonly from Neverland. Here in the Underworld, we don't get any of the emotionally moments with Hook and his loved ones.

Well, but that was expected. Rumple and Regina are the only characters A&E trully care about. The rest are just there to prop them or to prop the shinny new toy of the season.

[Camera One]

I don't think we're supposed to see Liam as a murderer (unlike the Queen of Crushing Hearts). Technically, he's a sell-out, just like Brennan. Killian was afraid of being like his father, but it's really Liam. He's the one who traded the lives of others for the chance at a better future. Killian's been comparing himself to his idealized version of Liam for so long, but he's the one who's the better Captain, and the better man.

Of course Emma took more crap for what she did. Of course. That's how this works. Emma gets crap, and Regina gets all the shine-y. SMH!

 

Speaking of which, Daddy Jones had no unfinished business?  Did Hook throw in a "Hey, no probs, I killed Daddio, FYI" as Liam left for the heavens?

[Shanna Marie]

Speaking of which, Daddy Jones had no unfinished business?

Well, he did seem to forgive Hook for killing him even as he was dying. He repented of his past bad deeds and was reunited with his son to apologize to him before he died. It's Hook who has the unfinished business in that affair, depending on what he did about Liam 2.0.

[Curio]

Honestly, Daddy Jones deserved to die now knowing that his young 8/9/10-year-old Killian ended up scrubbing decks and being a slave until however old he was in this episode's flashback. That's a solid decade of child slavery. Good riddance.

[Bishop]

And now we're verging into the disturbing territory of "people aren't responsible for the things they do as the Dark One except for Emma". Which is the same issue I have with the "self-defence is not murder except for Emma" thing.

 

If people are responsible for their Dark One behaviour then what Emma did was selfish and short sighted and took away Hook's right to self-determination. But if that's the case then Hook and Rumple are completely responsible for everything they did as well. And what they did while the Dark One was far far worse than Emma. If they are not responsible for their behaviour as the Dark One then neither is Emma.

 

And if the argument is that one's behaviour as the Dark One is influenced by their own personality then, sorry, but Hook and Rumple are far worse here too. Emma is motivated, as always, by a desire to fix everything while Hook is apparently driven to destroy (others and then himself) and Rumple driven to dominate.

Did I miss how anyone was not responsible for what they did as Dark Ones?  First, Emma IS to blame for turning Killian into a Dark One.  He implicitly told her that he feared he wouldn't be strong enough to fight the pull of darkness if she turned him, and he begged her to let him die.  He died, and she wanted him to survive,and so she turned him.  That's a selfish act.  Granted, she did it for love, but it was still selfish.  Also, Killian never once excused his behavior as a Dark One.  In fact, it's why he was so disgusted with himself.  He told Emma that at least while she was a Dark One for six weeks, she was fighting the darkness and that she did it for love.  He felt he was weak because the minute he found out he was a DO, he wanted his revenge again.  Emma reminded him that in the end, he chose the path towards redemption and sacrifice.  So both of them understand and see their flaws and strengths.  I don't see how either Killian or Emma should be condemned for their actions.  Gold, on the other hand, adores his darkness and his powers.  I give no sympathy or leeway to him at all.

 

Liam was being self-righteous, but he also had valid points that Emma CHOSE to make Killian a DO against his will.  That's simple fact.  However, Liam's argument that Killian "always had darkness" in him is BS.  I agree with the others who stated that a drinking problem is not "darkness."  Heck, we'd all be guilty of it.  I think Killian adored his father and felt immensely betrayed when he sold them into slavery.  Who wouldn't?  So he drank, but at no point did I ever see young Killian as a man who would sell out other people for his own benefit.  

 

I think we're referring to two entirely different things here. I was talking about the speech he gave Emma back in 4B when he was trying to keep her from going dark in spite of Rumple's efforts, when she was upset about learning about her parents and the eggbabynapping. She asked him how he turned away from darkness, and he talked about trying to get back to being the good man he used to be. This episode, though, makes it look like him being a good man was more of a temporary state and not the way he naturally was before Liam's death and then Milah's death sent him over the edge. And that speech also does fit in with the way he was feeling in this episode, where he thought he'd come so far and had learned to turn away from darkness, only to give in immediately the moment he became a Dark One. That would be enough to convince him that maybe he really was bad, after all.

Okay, but didn't Killian also admit that it was Emma who turned him back towards the path of wanting to be a good man.  Let me say this:  Killian, imo, has always been a good man at heart - or wants to be.  When Killian admitted on the island that he never thoguht he would be able to get over Milah and love another woman, it was his realization that he had a future.  He also told Regina that he wondered if their constant search for revenge is what kept them from loving someone.  So for Hook, he was always looking for some happiness with someone, imo.  When he found it with Emma, and that she was a good person, it made him want to be better and to change, and he did.  I didn't find the dialogue he had with Emma to be out of character when he was angry with himself for turning to vengeance.  He felt he had made so much progress only to believe that he could still regress.  Emma's point that in the end, he DID choose the right path at the expense of his own life tells her - and him - that he is a good man and worthy of forgiveness.  Throw in that Liam was put on a pedestal and didn't make any effort to let his little brother know that he wasn't all that, and it just made Killian feel more inferior - to Emma and Liam.  In the end, he realized his brother was flawed (for betraying his crew) and Emma was flawed (for refusing to let Killian die and turning him because she couldn't lose him).  

 

Captain Silver absolutely set it up. He knew Killian's weakness for alcohol, and exploited it. That's why Liam was so angry with him. I don't understand why being a teenage screw-up is supposed to equate to "darkness". He wasn't going around pillaging and plundering. 

I agree completely.  How is drinking the same as being dark.  I don't get that comment by Liam, and unless Liam knows about something horrific Killian did as a youth, it's a dumb statement.  In fact, Liam had far more darkness in him than Killian ever did because Killian didn't sell the souls of his shipmates for a rock and a commission in the King's Navy - Liam did that.  So if anyone has a penchant for darkness, it would be Liam, and yet he allowed his brother to believe he was the moon, the sun, and the stars.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Bishop

[Shanna Marie]

I wonder if perhaps Liam was using the word "darkness" in a different sense than is generally used on the show. Most of the time, darkness=evil, but in referring to Killian, maybe he meant something closer to depression, which is a kind of darkness. Killian wasn't evil in a way that hurt other people, but he was self-loathing and self-destructive. That degree of self-destruction could (and in Killian's case did) turn into evil if it were directed outward instead of or in addition to being directed internally. In that sense, you could say he's struggled with darkness all his life, even if in the time Liam knew him, it was directed inwardly and manifested more as something like depression.

 

That would fit with Lily being filled with extra darkness. She wasn't evil, really. She was mostly self-destructive and felt worthless. If darkness was only about evil, I'd have said she should have been on Wall Street, but if it's in this sense, then maybe her dead-end life makes sense.

[Curio]

I wonder if perhaps Liam was using the word "darkness" in a different sense than is generally used on the show. Most of the time, darkness=evil, but in referring to Killian, maybe he meant something closer to depression, which is a kind of darkness. Killian wasn't evil in a way that hurt other people, but he was self-loathing and self-destructive.

 

That's the way I interpreted Liam's comment. I think Liam could sense Killian's depression and self-loathing, and he equated that, along with Killian's outbursts of anger and drinking, as "darkness." So in that sense, yes, Killian battled those kinds of demons as long as Liam had been his brother. Even as a young 10-year-old, Killian throwing a temper tantrum and tossing a rag overboard in a fit of anger would probably considered "darkness" in Liam's eyes.