S05.E15: The Brothers Jones

[KingOfHearts]

Liam's unfinished business had so little to do with Killian. I don't understand why the writers made it like that. Leading random extras to their deaths was very generic and as Shanna Marie pointed out, it wasn't needed. The flashbacks should have solidified the brotherly relationship, not provide contrived reasons for Liam's prolonged stay in the Underworld. While the title is, "The Brothers Jones", it should be "Liam Jones". 

[Camera One]

Or "The Sinking of Liam"

[Rumsy4]

Emma not succumbing to the Darkness as quickly as Killian has to do with multiple things. First, she took it on willingly as opposed to Killian being turned against his will when he was in a weakened state. Second, her family arrived at the opportune moment to stop her from killing Merida, and giving in to Darkness immediately. Third, Emma triggered all of Killian's issues with enslavement by not listening to him, and compounded it by lying to him about Excalibur. And finally, Emma's parents did fetal surgery on her and took out her inherent capacity for Darkness, which made it easier for her to resist the Darkness than Killian. So, I don't even fully agree that Killian doesn't measure up to Emma, as the circumstances under which they took on the Darkness were completely different. And ultimately, when the moment of truth arrived, Killian did resist the Darkness, and overcame it, as did Emma. Instead of dealing with all this, the writers came up with this nonsense about Liam that has nothing to do with anything. And they ruined Liam in the process.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

Why does learning about what Liam did make him feel okay about what he did? Because Liam did something heinous without the influence of dark one goo and their situations were in no way similar. You shouldn't forgive yourself because you found out someone else did something worse than you did (even if that someone is your big brother who you idolize). I know what they were going for, Liam's on a pedestal blah blah, but it really did not work for me. 

 

I think seeing Liam the way he really was, a flawed person may have helped him understand himself better? The way I saw it was basically that his whole life, Killian felt he couldn't measure up to Liam, and that set him up, and he set himself up for failure. In the end, the writing did exactly what Killian was accusing Emma of doing, and that was dragging a "hero" down to make a "villain" look/feel better.

 

Honestly though, Liam POV on Killian wasn't what was needed. 

 

What I liked about 5x14 is that it gave us both sides of the coin. We got to see Rumple, and his POV on what he did, but we also got Milah's POV and reaction to what her husband did. When that episode was over, I was mighty satisfied. There were no bad guys in that flashback, just two people who very clearly fell out of love, very clearly loved their son, and so on.

 

I'm glad that Killian understands Emma made him a DO out of love..but would have been nice if she'd had a line to acknowledge the major reason she staved off the Darkness for so long was due to his unwavering support and belief in her.He didn't have that and that surely contributed. i have to wonder if he'd have succumbed so quickly if Emma had been waiting for him to come out of the vault and offered him the sword immediately.

Emma had a pretty good support system, and people who were willing to go to bat for her. 

 

The thing with Killian is that I personally never really understood what his place in the "family" is, because the show never spent anytime on that. And even in the UW, we know they are there for Emma, but are they there for him too?

 

Already, right off the bat when Killian is turned Dark One, Merlin is like saying how he will be the WORST Dark One ever! And David is expressing doubt, and Emma is lying to him. I think things would have been vastly different if Emma hadn't let the darkness in her dictate her actions. 

 

Liam's unfinished business had so little to do with Killian. I don't understand why the writers made it like that. Leading random extras to their deaths was very generic and as Shanna Marie pointed out, it wasn't needed. The flashbacks should have solidified the brotherly relationship, not provide contrived reasons for Liam's prolonged stay in the Underworld. While the title is, "The Brothers Jones", it should be "Liam Jones". 

 

That's one thing that kind of left me a bit miffed. We knew from Good Form how close those 2 are, and there's better understanding of that after 5x11. They had no one but each other. And in a season of dysfunctional sibling relationships, it would have been nice to have a more normal one, where one brother isn't committing mass murder to get what he wants.

 

Because let's face it, what Liam did was never about Killian, it was always about him. When Hades offered him the deal, he talked about Liam's dreams of joining the navy. Killian was just along for the ride.

 

It was a disappointing episode.

[Camera One]

Because let's face it, what Liam did was never about Killian, it was always about him. When Hades offered him the deal, he talked about Liam's dreams of joining the navy. Killian was just along for the ride.

 

He could have joined the navy himself earlier.  The fact he ripped his papers up does show that he was willing to sacrifice a lot for his brother.  That deal was also what he wanted, but I woudn't say he was *never* about Killian.

[YaddaYadda]

He could have joined the navy himself earlier.  The fact he ripped his papers up does show that he was willing to sacrifice a lot for his brother.  That deal was also what he wanted, but I woudn't say he was *never* about Killian.

 

I agree with the first part, that he made a sacrifice, chose to stay instead of leaving. I think he probably made a lot of sacrifices along the way. Maybe he took a beating for something that Killian did, or maybe he took the blame for things. I'm not saying he was a horrible brother. I can't imagine that being a child trying to protect another child is easy to do, or that trying to raise Killian the best way he could, and lead by example all the time is easy to do.

 

All I'm saying is that the navy was his dream, not his brother's. And that's the thing that Hades appealed to.

[Curio]

I think Liam was put in a difficult spot, was forced to make a drastic life-or-death decision in a matter of seconds, and chose to save his brother no matter the cost. I could see Liam justifying it all in his head and thinking, "Okay, Silver is insane and has put us on course to our inevitable deaths, so if I turn down Hades's offer, there's a very good chance we all die anyways. But if I take his offer, at least two people could survive this and live on to become honorable men. Killian and I could join the navy and spread goodness into society. So if I don't take Hades's offer, then I'm depriving the world of two potentially upright citizens who could help save innocent people in the future. But if we die today, those people we potentially save in the future might end up dying if we aren't there to help them. If Killian and I learn to save lives in the navy, that will make up for the deaths that happen today. But most importantly, if I say no to Hades, my brother's death is on my hands. I have a chance to save him, and as his brother/father figure, it's my duty to do everything I can to keep him alive. Dead Killian versus Not-Dead Killian? Screw it, there's no other option here. I'm saving Killian."

 

Maybe it's because I also have an older sibling who had to take on a parental role growing up, but I could definitely empathize with Liam in this episode. Was he self-righteous? Yes. But he clearly loved his brother more than anything and that clouded his judgement about what Killian actually wanted. Liam just assumed Killian would want to join the navy and that Killian would rather be alive, but he never bothered to ask his brother about those things. And even if he did ask his brother and Killian said, "Liam, if it comes down to saving our lives while everyone else on the ship dies? I'd rather die. And the navy sounds kind of boring to be honest," Liam would probably play the I'm-Your-Brother/Parent-And-I-Know-What's-Best-For-You Card and say, "Killian, you're just young and naive. I know what's best for you, so we're going to do what I say anyways." Like Hook told Charming, Liam could be a stubborn ass like that.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

Merlin pretty much rolled out the red carpet for his own death. He sees the future, sets up Arthur to believe his false prophecy, warns Young!Emma about Excalibur, doesn't inform Hook that the cut he took was deadly, then brewed up the curse right in Granny's Diner. What was he doing if not actually planning for Dark!Hook to kill him?

And that's why I think facing Merlin would have done more to help Hook get over his guilt about giving in to the Darkness. If he faced Merlin and Merlin said, "Oops, my bad. I handled that horribly, didn't I? You didn't stand a chance. No hard feelings, and I owe you an apology. Actually, I'm really impressed that you ended up beating the darkness because no one other than Emma ever has before," it might make a difference to him.

 

Killian didn't have any organic character growth or revelation. He simply found out that his brother is deeply flawed *ahem murderer* and if his brother isn't perfect than he doesn't have to judge himself so harshly. Unfortunately, that is some wonky morality and doesn't really address his most recent actions as a dark one.

I think that kind of morality has a lot to do with the trend to try to demonize heroes. You have to actually work hard and make difficult choices to be like the true heroes, but if you tear them down and then focus on the villains, you can stay exactly the same as you are but feel better about yourself because the heroes aren't better than you, and you're better than the villains. So the problem with this story is that Killian himself did nothing but came out of it feeling better about himself. I guess the show was trying to say that he was wrong to feel bad about himself, so changing his attitude really was all he needed, but his changed attitude had nothing to do with anything he did, but rather what Liam did, and that's really wonky. Killian is right to feel bad because he did cave to the darkness, and he's done lots of horrible things in his life. But it's almost like he's under the Shattered Sight spell, so all he can see is the bad. He's unable to see that he did save everyone else, that he did fight off the darkness after it had consumed him and that's something no one else has done before. He's seeing his bad deeds and not his heroism. He's not able to see the extenuating circumstances. What he needed was to be made to see the good parts, and that's where they could have used the age/life experience role reversal, if his idolized older brother was in awe of him because of what he's been able to do. Or he could have been given some good task to do, maybe confronting someone he'd wronged and helping them move on and that former enemy recognized the change. Instead, he was just a bystander for the whole episode but came out of it totally changed.

 

On another note, I thought that the way Liam gave Killian the ring was rather clumsily handled. There were plenty of other times Killian could have ended up with the ring, so they didn't have to shoehorn it in during this episode, unless it was significant. Where did Liam get the ring? Was that maybe how Liam marked his brother out of all the crew so that he didn't die in the crash and Hades didn't take him? If so, that would mean that the ring wasn't just "lucky" and really was what was keeping him alive all this time. It would be funny if the solution to freeing Hook from the Underworld was to give him the ring back.

[Curio]

On another note, I thought that the way Liam gave Killian the ring was rather clumsily handled.

 

This entire episode was rather clumsily handled. I finally did a full re-watch of it, and it's extremely disappointing that this is the best Liam/Killian story they could think of. They had nearly two full years to come up with a proper backstory for those two ever since 3x05 "Good Form" aired! I've read many theories and fanfics that were much more clever, interesting, and canon-abiding than what was shown to us.

 

Basically, it all boils down to uninspired writing. It's like that saying where you can make a bad movie from a good script, but you can never make a good movie from a bad script. Overall, this was just a terrible script. We had continuity issues (Regina versus Henry tearing out the story book pages about the Evil Queen), disjointed side plots (Henry going off with Cruella and David getting it on with Cruella both didn't fit the overall mood of the episode), thematic messages dropped on the audience like giant pianos falling from the sky ("Is this like a protective big brother talk where you want to make sure I'm good enough for Killian?" "Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing." ... "You think if you can prove that Liam is a villain, then I'll somehow feel like I was less of one." "Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing." ... "Liam, you need to find a way to forgive yourself. Wait a second, that's the lesson I was supposed to learn this episode! Duh, Killian. Lesson learned I suppose!"), and the ham-fisted way they went about having dry ink from a book stain Liam's hands as the big clue that he was hiding something. How were these the same writers who wrote the brilliant "Birth" episode?

 

And that's why I think facing Merlin would have done more to help Hook get over his guilt about giving in to the Darkness.

 

I don't even think Merlin was necessary. You know who should have been the biggest factor in helping Killian realize he's worth saving? Emma. This episode should have been a freaking gold mine of juicy relationship drama between Killian and Emma hashing out everything that went down while they were Dark Ones.

 

Liam: Killian's been fighting darkness his entire life, and you pushed him off the cliff.

Emma: I was trying to save his life.

Liam: And it was a bloody selfish thing to do. He had a chance to die a hero, to move on, and you took it from him.

Emma: That's not fair. I'm down here risking everything to save him.

Liam: And is that really what he needs, or what you need?

 

If I had read that as a script tease before the episode aired, I would have been so stoked because I've been waiting for someone to finally dig into Emma's psyche and have her verbally tell someone how she feels about everything that went down while she was the Dark One. But ever since Emma changed back to normal, it's like she never was the Dark One and she hasn't had a chance to discuss how she feels about it all because she's been too focused on saving Hook, and all the 5B episodes have been too busy dealing with giving every other character not-named-Emma a centric to deal with their past issues. I wish Emma wasn't so defensive to Liam during that exchange because he actually had a point—what Emma did was selfish and it caused Killian a lot of pain. Awesome, let's talk about it! But no, it's like the writers felt like they had to include that conversation just for the sake of checking it off a list of things to get to in the episode, and then quickly ignored it and devised an awkward way to make Liam look like a villain and make Emma completely inculpable in the entire situation.

 

So instead of all the insipid Liam drama to convince Killian he deserves to be saved, why not focus more on Emma and Killian hashing out their issues? Have Hook bring up the fact that he still thinks about calling Emma an orphan. Have Emma remind Hook that she took away his agency even though he always puts hers first. Have Hook remind Emma that there's no way he could ever forgive himself for nearly killing her entire family. Have Emma remind Hook she would have killed Merida if he hadn't intervened. It's all right there! Why create unnecessary drama when you have so much drama already created?! 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

You know what's a good way to convince someone that he's not entirely driven by revenge, that what he did as the Dark One was an aberration caused by the Darkness? Put him in a similar situation and let him handle it a different way so that he can prove to himself that he's different now.

 

Thanks to zoning out during a traffic jam and later during choir practice when the tenors were having issues and I got bored, here's Shanna's Alternate Take on a "Brothers Jones" episode:

We start in pretty much the same way, with the conversation between Hook and Emma and Liam arriving, only we get to see the reunion. Hook is overjoyed to be reunited with his brother, but also a little bashful. He keeps the hook behind his back at first. Emma watches, smiling to see her hotshot pirate boyfriend suddenly acting like a little kid in the presence of his big brother, but then she starts to be a little concerned as she notes him hiding the hook and brushing aside questions about his life after Liam's death. Cut to the flashback. Since this is my fantasy, they're using younger actors, but because we're intelligent people, we can tell who they are by the way they call each other "Liam" and "Killian." Spitballing based on wee Killian's apparent age in the earlier flashback and the typical 7-year period of indentured servitude, I'm going to say that Liam is about 20, a fully grown man, big and sturdy, and seemingly mature beyond his years because he's had to take on a lot of responsibility. Sixteen-year-old Killian is a scrawny kid, still before the growth spurt that will make him a man. He's a hothead with a fiery temper, but his wit and charm have endeared him to a lot of the crew, aside from the captain and his cronies, and that makes the captain like him even less. The captain says something nasty about Killian's work and does something to sabotage it, to which Killian responds in anger, and the captain lashes out at him, hitting him. Liam puts himself in the way to prevent another blow and talks the captain down, promising to deal with his brother. Then he reminds Killian that this is their last run, and after this they'll be free, if they don't do anything to rack up any fines that will extend their term. They just need to keep their heads down, keep their mouths shut, and do their work for a few more days, and everything will be okay. Killian apologizes for his temper and promises to do better, though he says if he ever runs into Captain Silver again after they're free men, he's going to get back at him for every beating.

 

In the present, they have the conversation around the table about what Hades is up to and Liam brings up the book. But instead of looking shifty when talking about unfinished business, Liam says he's sure his unfinished business was his brother, that he failed him by leaving him on his own, and now that Killian is there, they can move on together once they find a way to get past Hades. While they search for the book, Emma confronts Liam about the moving on thing, reminding him that she and her family came to the Underworld to free Killian and bring him back with them. He gives her the speech about her selfishness. In the flashback, the ship is out at sea, and the weather's getting rough. The captain is baiting Killian, trying to get him to lose his temper and do something that will earn him more time in service, but Killian is resisting all temptation, even though it's killing him. The treatment is getting him some sympathy from the crew members who like him. Liam keeps reminding him to be good, which irks his brother because it sounds like he doesn't believe in him. The captain makes Killian take the watch in the crow's nest, a real punishment in the cold wind and driving rain. He spots a ship that's run aground on some rocks not too far away, and they're signalling distress. He alerts the captain, saying they have to go to that ship's aid. The captain refuses. Killian rants at the captain and turns to his brother and begs him to back him. Liam is torn -- arguing now might jeopardize their future, but saving the other ship's crew is the right thing to do. He supports Killian's argument, and most of the crew backs him because it's the code of the sea to come to the aid of other sailors in distress and it's bad luck not to. The captain claims it's mutiny, but the crew rallies around Liam. Killian is really impressed with his brother.

 

In the present, we see Hades meeting with someone, but we don't get a good look at him, only his back. We're led to believe that it might be the captain. Hades talks about how Team Storybrooke has had too many victories, and he needs to stir things up. They keep sending people on to better places, but if someone completes their unfinished business in a negative way, that will send him to the bad place. Hook has unfinished business with the person Hades is meeting with, and Hades wants him to go find Hook. If Hook gets his revenge, he'll be gone to a place where Emma and the gang won't be able to save him. In flashback, they're close to the endangered ship, but reaching all the crew is difficult. It's Killian who comes up with a clever solution. They manage to get the crew saved, but there's one last man. Killian reaches him and gets him to safety, but Killian is struck by a bit of wreckage and is knocked out. Liam saves him and gets him back into the boat.

 

In the present, they're searching the mansion, and Liam finds the storybook. Flipping through it, he finds the story of Killian's adventures, and he's rather horrified. He goes to confront his brother about the life he led. Emma jumps to defend Killian, but Killian owns up to it all, adding the details about what he did as Dark One that the book doesn't yet mention. He apologizes for being a disappointment and leaves. Once he's gone, Emma tells Liam the rest of the story and the extenuating circumstances. While Killian is off on his own, someone walks up behind him and calls out his name, saying, "I believe you have some unfinished business with me." In the flashback, everyone's on board the ship, soaked but alive. Killian has regained consciousness but has a cut on his face. The captain is furious and swears that he'll see them all hanged for mutiny. That last man they rescued faces the captain and says he will not. He's the king, and he'll be happy to have these young men and the other crew that worked to save the crew of the royal flagship join his navy.

 

In the present, Emma tells Liam that Killian's problem is that he sees himself the way Liam saw his past actions. He can't see past that to realize the good he's done. She gives him a brief summary of what he's done for her since she met him. She can't lose him, and if Liam can't get through to him, she's afraid they will lose him because he's afraid he doesn't deserve to live. Meanwhile, we see that the man who confronted Killian is the king. Killian is furious at him. He accuses him of betraying them by sending them after a terrible poison and telling them that it was a healing herb. Liam died because he believed in the king, and really the king was planning genocide. The king taunts him by talking about his little one-ship war that didn't accomplish anything, but now's his chance to even the score. Killian resists the temptation, saying that revenge won't do him any good. Just then, Liam and Emma arrive, and Liam is infuriated when he sees the king. Killian throws himself in between them, refusing to let Liam get himself sent to a worse place by going after revenge. He uses his hook to deflect Liam's knife. Hades shows up to jeer a bit, but he sends the king off to the bad place for failing him. He picks up the book Liam dropped and hands it to him before vanishing. Liam is impressed by what a hero Killian turned out to be and how he saved him. The heaven ship appears and Liam gets to sail away, now knowing his brother is okay and saying he knows he'll see him again someday, but hopefully a long time from now. Emma points out to Killian that he has learned to move beyond revenge when he's himself. She starts to rip his pages out of the book, but he stops her, saying they're part of who he is. He wouldn't be the man he is now if he hadn't gone through all that. Then they notice that there are pages missing at the end -- did Hades get those when he popped by to deal with the king?

 

Of course, it's rough. This is just off the top of my head. But I think it comes closer to getting from point A to point B than what we saw, and without really sabotaging any of the characters. Though if I were really in charge, I wouldn't be so episodic about things. I'd weave all the stories together, so we'd have had Liam around for a few episodes in the present, with just the flashbacks being "centric," building up to the episode where things were resolved while introducing some of the other threads.

[Curio]

I think I'm going to use your new episode description as my personal headcanon from now on.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I wish Emma wasn't so defensive to Liam during that exchange because he actually had a point—what Emma did was selfish and it caused Killian a lot of pain. Awesome, let's talk about it! But no, it's like the writers felt like they had to include that conversation just for the sake of checking it off a list of things to get to in the episode, and then quickly ignored it and devised an awkward way to make Liam look like a villain and make Emma completely inculpable in the entire situation.

 

I think the problem was that Emma did end up killing Hook and letting him die a hero. The first time she screwed up, but she then fixed it and let things happen as they should have the first time. They fought. They said and did horrible things, but they forgave each other in that moment in the end and their actions spoke volumes for this. And then what happened? Hook did not move on. In fact, he ended up in the Underworld being tortured by Hades. Liam yelling at Emma for being selfish in coming down to save Hook ends up looking really bad. Where was Liam when Hook was beaten or attacked by Cerberus or hanging over the River of Souls? Yes, by all means, Emma, stay in Storybrooke. It was wrong of you to come and save my brother who actually needed saving. The story we'd seen already demonstrated that while choosing to follow Hook might have been what's best for Emma, it was also a really good thing for Hook. Conversations that could/should be had are deeply screwed over by the narrative because the argument is skewed by the end result.

[Rumsy4]

Shanna Marie, your version of the episode is the one that really happened. What we got was just a version Isaac snuck in somehow to take revenge on Hook.

[HoodlumSheep]

Playing catch up:

-the episode wasn't as bad as I thought it's be considering some of the comments

-the pacing was rushed and I wish certain scenes had more room to breathe, but other than that the episode was okay.

-certainly not the worst episode, but also not the best mainly due to rushed pacing. I think Hook's other centrics were better paced. There was too much stuff they wanted to cram into this one.

-I still like Liam, and this was Hook's equivalent to Emma's parent's eggnapping. Add it to the long list of CS parallels.

-the Cruella side plot has been fun and it was good to see Mickey again.

Overall, pretty average and I hope this resolves some of Hook's self-worth issues.

Onwards to 5x16!

[Camera One]

I was reading the story of Odysseus and I think they could have used a variant of part of that story.  In the story, Odysseus knew from a seer that a monster would kill 6 of his crew as they sailed past a certain rock, but he didn't tell them, and those crew members did end up dying.  Something like this could have happened with Liam, where he could be told by Hades or whoever, that 6 of his shipmates would die, and he could have intentionally ensured Killian would not be on that side of the boat or something.  He would naturally still have felt guilty about that, and been ashamed of what he did.  I still think their retcon for Liam in this episode was just so ridiculously over-the-top.  

[Shanna Marie]

On 7/13/2016 at 1:27 PM, Camera One said:

 I still think their retcon for Liam in this episode was just so ridiculously over-the-top.  

It was their usual overly complicated way of addressing the wrong problem. Yes, Hook needed to learn to apply the same standards of forgiveness that he gives other people to himself, but that really wasn't what the episode demonstrated. It came across more like it was okay for him to have screwed up since it turned out that his supposedly perfect brother had also screwed up. Even him forgiving his brother for the screwup and realizing that he needed to forgive himself doesn't track to the problem laid out in the beginning of the episode. Hook didn't feel worthy of returning to life because he had given in to the urge for revenge, and in doing so had nearly killed all the people who mattered to him. There were a couple of things going on here. One is that Hook has prided himself on being a changed man. He realized the futility of revenge and put it behind him, and since then he's become like a sponsor in Darkness Anonymous, providing his insights into fighting darkness to others who might be struggling. He was even a little smug about how much he'd changed when he rejected Dark Emma because he wasn't that man anymore (not realizing that he was a Dark One all along). But then it turned out that he caved to the Darkness in about 30 seconds and jumped straight on the revenge train at the slightest urging from Nimue, and he was willing to kill the people who mattered to him in order to get his revenge. He was so stuck on that failure that he wasn't giving himself credit for stopping and sacrificing himself to save the others and wasn't using the fact that he was essentially possessed by a dark entity at the time as an excuse. What he needed to fix that was not learning that he held himself to an impossibly high standard because he was comparing himself to a perfect brother who wasn't all that perfect, after all. Instead, he needed to be presented the revenge temptation again and resist it, so he could see how much he really had changed, that he, without the Darkness, was different.

And that would tie into the other issue, forgiving himself because he realized how he was able to forgive others. That's another thing where the Liam story doesn't track because Liam hadn't really wronged him. He'd betrayed him, in a sense, in making a decision behind his back that he probably wouldn't have agreed with, and I guess you could say that Liam robbed him of the chance to actually save the crew, but Liam's actions benefited Killian in the long run. It wasn't really a "forgive" kind of situation. What Hook needed in order to learn to forgive himself and realize that the people around him were willing to forgive him so that he could bear the idea of going back and living among them was to be in a situation where he had to forgive someone who'd wronged him. The best storyline to convey that would have been for him to encounter someone in the Underworld who'd seriously wronged him, and not only not give in to the urge for revenge, but also understand that person's perspective, have some sympathy for their situation, and forgive. That would show him that he is a different man, he has changed, and his actions as Dark One don't reflect who he really is, while also showing him how the others would be able to forgive him, so he needed to cut himself a break.

Instead, we got a convoluted retcon that dragged Liam's character through the mud, gave us a really questionable moral message, and didn't actually resolve Hook's real issues, though they told us it did. Actually ... (spoiler for a later episode)

Spoiler

Hook got more of what he needed later with Arthur, who was largely responsible for all that happened with Hook because he caused the fatal injury in the first place. Instead of seeking revenge on him, Hook helped him and worked with him. That's a huge switch from the way Hook has dealt with wrongs in the past.

[Shanna Marie]

I don't have too much to add here for the rewatch that I haven't already said in this thread. It was interesting rereading my alternate version for this episode a few posts above after so long that I'd pretty much forgotten writing it. It's really rather good and closer to the direction I wish they'd gone.

I think one of the big problems with this episode is the lack of specifics that would make a big difference in how we perceive this story. For one thing, there's no telling what the age difference between Killian and Liam is supposed to be. We've got the same issue with them that we have with Emma and Neal in flashbacks, where they age Killian down by changing his appearance -- no guyliner, different hair -- but they don't age Liam down any from the present. They don't even cover the gray in his hair. Is Liam supposed to be only a few years older than Killian? If so, I cut him a bit more slack because he was too young to take on the responsibility of being a father to his younger brother, didn't have a great role model to begin with, and was bound to make mistakes. It's a different story if he's significantly older, if he was a teenager already when they were abandoned and fully an adult in this flashback incident. The age of the characters during this story also makes a big difference. Are they teenagers or are they adults? If Killian's an adult and letting himself get blackout drunk and gambling away all their money it looks pretty bad, but if he's a teenager it's tragic that he's going down that road already and he's being taken advantage of by their captain. Killian couldn't have been more than about 22 in "Good Form" for his timeline to work at all, so is this months before that episode or years?

I'm still irked that they skipped the actual reunion of Liam and Killian, going straight from Liam at the door to them sitting around the table like they've been talking for hours. We didn't get to see Liam's initial reaction to Emma, didn't get to see how Hook reacted to seeing his brother and his brother seeing what had become of him. Then later, they're all just working together with the Charmings, so we didn't get to see them meeting Liam. David is alive in part due to Liam, since that's how Hook knew how to save him, and Hook has talked about his brother to David (possibly even more than he talked to Emma about him), but we didn't get to see them meet, no "I've heard a lot about you" from David. Hook had even said David reminded him of Liam.

And then there's Henry. I hate the "I want to be a hero" talk, but he is a kid. I just hate that the show seems to endorse it. The Apprentice should have said something about that, that wanting to do good things is great, but wanting to be a hero means what you really want is glory. And then David also should have said something.

I was actually kind of icked out when Emma and Hook kissed. He's dead. This isn't his body. It's some kind of manifestation of his soul. In fact, it's weird that there doesn't seem to be any difference between the living and the dead in the Underworld. Snow figured out that James wasn't David because she knew her husband, not because her husband is a living being and James is whatever lives in the Underworld, and in this episode the living/dead thing doesn't seem to be a factor for Cruella.

About the only thing that sprang to mind where I had a new perspective after seeing the rest of the series was the issue of Hook's drinking. In the flashback, he drinking habitually as a way of self-medicating and no one seems surprised by him getting blackout drunk, possibly as a teenager, but in the series he's never really shown to have an actual drinking problem, aside from the one snarky line by Pan, even though he continues carrying a flask of rum with him at all times and seems to continue using it for self medication.

Spoiler

And yet Whook was treated essentially as an alcoholic in recovery. He'd quit cold turkey and entirely abstained. His cursed persona, Rogers, really acted like an alcoholic in recovery. He'd quit drinking entirely, and even the temptation to take one drink when he was really upset was treated as a potentially serious thing. So, does that mean Hook Prime also really had a problem that he never dealt with? I don't think he went as deep into the rum barrel as WHook did, so maybe he never got to the point of having a true problem, but it's weird how one version of the character is shown as having a real problem while it's treated more as a joke and character trait for the other version of the character, and yet that character is shown as having started young and having his drinking get in the way of his life at that time.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Shanna Marie
Argh. Proofreading.

[KAOS Agent]

It's so frustrating to have this show skip over what should have been an emotional reunion between Liam and Killian. This show consistently misses the character interactions that should be driving the story. I guess Regina is the only one who ever gets to have these kinds of moments. Jumping from plot point to plot point removes so much of emotion from the story and makes it super bland. 

And then we have the ridiculous morality where a mass murderer sails off to heaven with his victims. That Liam was apparently also the reason they were stuck in the Underworld (not knowing who murdered you apparently consigns you to the Underworld forever. Such a hopeful show this is.) makes it doubly awful. I can't even entirely fault Liam for wanting to save himself and his brother, but the part where he profited from it makes it really icky. Plus, he was a pompous, self-righteous dick about everything and was continuing to screw over everyone in the Underworld to cover up his previous actions. I'm not even sure that he was sincerely sorry for killing the crew, only that he'd hurt his brother later. I don't think Liam is a horrible person like some of the characters on this show who murder for fun, but I'm not fully on board with him moving on to heaven with his victims either.

[Camera One]

The whole Liam "twist" in this episode is crystal clear evidence that the writing for this show isn't character-driven.  It's plot-driven.  There didn't even need to be a surprise in the Liam/Hook backstory and the Liam/Hook reunion could still have been very meaningful and emotionally resonant.  Heck, it could have been a flashback of how they coped together after their dad disappeared.  But no, it has to be "You can never guess what Liam's deep dark secret REALLY was!"  When they do try to do character realizations, they have to really hit you on the head with it hard, like "Let's make the older brother that Hook looked up to into a mass murderer so Hook would realize his own worth!"  

[companionenvy]

In fairness, in this case, I think Liam really was confronting extraordinary temptation in a no-win situation. I can buy him as a generally good man who did a terrible thing under great pressure, as opposed to certain other killers I've named many other times before.

The issue I have is that if Killian and Liam were going to meet, it would have been a lot more interesting for them to have Killian and Liam have to come to terms with Killian's dark past than to reveal a previously unknown crime in Liam's backstory. 

[Camera One]

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

The issue I have is that if Killian and Liam were going to meet, it would have been a lot more interesting for them to have Killian and Liam have to come to terms with Killian's dark past than to reveal a previously unknown crime in Liam's backstory. 

I think I expected a variation of this.  The last time that Liam saw Killian, Killian was all about "good form", wasn't he?  At this point in the flashbacks, wasn't Liam's death the catalyst that changed that for Hook?  Hook would naturally have been afraid that Liam would be disappointed in him and judge him for his subsequent decisions, though maybe Liam had unfinished business because he blamed himself for his foolhardiness which led to the nightshade incident in the first place.  

[Shanna Marie]

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

I think I expected a variation of this.  The last time that Liam saw Killian, Killian was all about "good form", wasn't he?  At this point in the flashbacks, wasn't Liam's death the catalyst that changed that for Hook?  Hook would naturally have been afraid that Liam would be disappointed in him and judge him for his subsequent decisions

Yes, that's what I was expecting, too. We know Killian's ashamed of his dark past, and it would have been interesting seeing him face the brother he admired, with his brother seeing what had become of him, in part due to his reacting badly to Liam's death. The last time Killian saw his brother, he was all "good form" and an upright naval officer, and now he's a pirate. He may have turned his life around since then, but he still looks somewhat piratey, very different from his military self (not that this makes sense for the character, but the show stuck him in pirate mode with the leather, guyliner, and jewelry), and there's the hook. I guess injuries could also have happened in the navy that would have led to a hook, but Hook seems to see it as a symbol of his revenge quest (which makes the 4a episode about him getting the hand back make little sense, but whatever). There's a lot going on with that reunion that they ended up not dealing with at all.

Really, though, the whole Saint Liam thing, where Hook saw his brother as the finest man who ever lived, who raised the bar so high he couldn't possibly live up to it, is a total retcon. In "Good Form," Hook referred to his brother as a "stubborn ass" and when he said David reminded him of Liam, he didn't mean it as a compliment. I don't think the idol worship appeared until 5A when he gave Emma the ring/saw that Emma had the ring, probably when they were setting up this episode. "Good Form" Lt. Jones really seemed to admire his brother, but he saw all the human frailty in the dispute over the dreamshade and in the present he seemed to have a rather realistic view of what his brother was like. He loved and admired him, but I didn't get any impression that he saw him as perfect or that he set an example he couldn't possibly live up to. Were there any other mentions of Liam between "Good Form" and that bit in 5A?

15 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

not knowing who murdered you apparently consigns you to the Underworld forever. Such a hopeful show this is.

Oh, that's another thing that struck me -- the Apprentice is also stuck in the Underworld because of someone else. He said his unfinished business was Henry and whether or not Henry would make the right choice with the pen. So the Apprentice's afterlife fate is entirely dependent on what Henry chooses to do. That seems fair.

[Melgaypet]

How did the Apprentice die, anyway? Was is it when Rumple (and Hook) hatted him back during the Frozen arc? Because if so, that could qualify as unfinished business for Hook, since he wasn't being heart-controlled at that point, just blackmailed. If not, then never mind.

Also the idea that the pen was alive and got sent to the Underworld is really stupid, I gotta say.

Edited May 26, 2019 by Melgaypet

[Camera One]

18 minutes ago, Melgaypet said:

How did the Apprentice die, anyway? Was is it when Rumple (and Hook) hatted him back during the Frozen arc? 

He died at the end of 4B, after he took on the black goop that left Rumple.  He couldn't handle it or something and died.  Conveniently before giving any useful information about Merlin or the origin of the Dark One or Arthur or Excalibur.

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

He died at the end of 4B, after he took on the black goop that left Rumple.  He couldn't handle it or something and died. 

That's so this show. Someone dies of trying to save the world and gets stuck in the Underworld because he has to be there to talk Henry out of doing something dumb, and his fate depends on the choice Henry makes.

2 hours ago, Melgaypet said:

Also the idea that the pen was alive and got sent to the Underworld is really stupid, I gotta say.

Does that mean that the Cruellamobile was also alive? Because it wasn't part of the curse, so it wasn't part of the Storybrooke trappings.

[Camera One]

8 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Does that mean that the Cruellamobile was also alive? 

Dear fan,

If ABC had renewed us for our thirteenth season, you would have learned the answer to that question with our unique take on the movie "Cars".

Yours truly,

A&E

Edited May 27, 2019 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

On 5/26/2019 at 8:52 PM, Shanna Marie said:

That's so this show. Someone dies of trying to save the world and gets stuck in the Underworld because he has to be there to talk Henry out of doing something dumb, and his fate depends on the choice Henry makes.

Yet he has no guilt over leaving Emma in the dark while spilling his guts to Lily, or (even though he was being forced to) offering to help the Charmings banish a baby.

[Melgaypet]

12 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Yet he has no guilt over leaving Emma in the dark while spilling his guts to Lily, or (even though he was being forced to) offering to help the Charmings banish a baby.

Sure. Emma had to grow up miserable and alone with zero support from anybody (except a villainous Snow Queen and those memories were taken from her) or she wouldn't become the Savior. Apparently. More like she wouldn't be willing to take on such a thankless job if she wasn't so starved for love and acceptance that being the Savior was the only way she could get it.

ETA: Oooh! That little rant made me forget what I wanted to post about in the first place. Another thing that annoys me about this ep's treatment of Jones Bros' backstory. Where did Hook get his education? Hook knows how to read and to write a good hand. He knows how to waltz. He knows how to use a sextant and other navigational tools that require higher mathematics. Are we supposed to buy that he picked all that up swabbing fishguts as an indentured deckhand? Officers in the Age of Sail British Royal Navy (which was clearly what Hook and Liam's navy was based on) were educated gentlemen, emphasis on the gentlemen. That doesn't mean they were all rich or even comfortably off, but there was a class distinction at play. And Colin O'Donoghue played him as if he had that kind of background, or so it seemed to me.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Melgaypet

[profdanglais]

25 minutes ago, Melgaypet said:

ETA: Oooh! That little rant made me forget what I wanted to post about in the first place. Another thing that annoys me about this ep's treatment of Jones Bros' backstory. Where did Hook get his education? Hook knows how to read and to write a good hand. He knows how to waltz. He knows how to use a sextant and other navigational tools that require higher mathematics. Are we supposed to buy that he picked all that up swabbing fishguts as an indentured deckhand? Officers in the Age of Sail British Royal Navy (which was clearly what Hook and Liam's navy was based on) were educated gentlemen, emphasis on the gentlemen. That doesn't mean they were all rich or even comfortably off, but there was a class distinction at play. And Colin O'Donoghue played him as if he had that kind of background, or so it seemed to me.

He also reads Ancient Greek well enough to translate the words on the heart-balancing thingy in the underworld easily enough that he barely had to think about it. 

This is something that bothers me ENORMOUSLY and I'm pretty sure I whinged about it in the original episode commentary. Hook's education is not something that could have been shoehorned in between years of indenture then piracy unless he was quite young when he joined the navy and spent several years studying hard at the naval academy. People have tried to fanwank it but nope. Can't be done. Just one of the many reasons why I have come to hate this episode so much. 

Interestingly I was just chatting with a friend about how well OUAT's Hook fits Barrie's original description of the character: Handsome, blue eyed, gentlemanly, educated, dangerous. I do not for one second believe that A&E intended this, mostly because in these later seasons they did their very best to destroy it. They got SO LUCKY with so much of their casting and then shot themselves in the foot over and over again. 

[tennisgurl]

This all just seems so unnecessary, and it raises so many questions about Hook and his backstory, as others have said. I can kind of see what they might have been going for, that Hook started out as a boozy mess, and became a boozy bad guy later on, but it just does not really work. I mean, I am sure that that isnt actually what they meant, and this was just a crappy flashback to justify Liam showing up. Its such a convoluted backstory, and it sucks that they had to make the bad thing that Liam did SO bad. I can get why he did it, in that high stress life of death situation, but if they wanted to show Hook that his brother wasnt perfect, and that he should stop holding himself up to the standards that he built up based on Liams example. There are easier ways to do that without all the killing. And while Hook loved his brother and they were clearly close, he was aware that his brother could be a "stubborn ass", so its not like he just worshiped him blindly.

I admit, I do kind of like having Hook actually have some family around, who isnt sure that Emma is quite good enough for his baby brother. I mean, Emma clearly is, but Liam didnt know that. It really does still irk me that after all this time, we dont really have much of a relationship between Hook and any other Emma other friends and family, beyond him being Emma's boyfriend. He has had some stuff with Henry and he and Charming have their whole love/hate bromance, but he has hardly had two seconds with Snow, and Regina has nothing but disdain for him. Granted, she has disdain for everyone except for maybe Henry, but it really stands out with him. 

...who are you talking to, Hades?

Edited May 28, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Camera One]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I admit, I do kind of like having Hook actually have some family around, who isnt sure that Emma is quite good enough for his baby brother. I mean, Emma clearly is, but Liam didnt know that. It really does still irk me that after all this time, we dont really have much of a relationship between Hook and any other Emma other friends and family, beyond him being Emma's boyfriend.

This was definitely something with a lot of potential in this episode.  It would be understandable why Liam might side-eye Emma as good enough for his brother.  Without the context, it does seem like she's to blame for his brother ending up dead.  In a world where magic might not be trusted, Liam might distrust Emma having magical powers.  

But in this episode, it just became so simplistic.  Will Emma's super power detect that Hook's brother is totally shady?  Will Hook be mad that Emma is making accusations about his idol?  Tune in to see this resolved in 40 minutes and never mentioned again this Sunday on "Once Upon a Time".

[Shanna Marie]

6 hours ago, profdanglais said:

This is something that bothers me ENORMOUSLY and I'm pretty sure I whinged about it in the original episode commentary. Hook's education is not something that could have been shoehorned in between years of indenture then piracy unless he was quite young when he joined the navy and spent several years studying hard at the naval academy.

Yeah, that's one of my problems, too. Future officers went to sea to begin training quite young. I believe one of Jane Austen's brothers went into the Navy at 12 (he ended up as an admiral). There was extensive training and education and exams to get a commission, with them starting as cabin boys serving a captain and getting tutoring in things like math and history from the officers. The Horatio Hornblower movies from the late 90s showed a lot of that. Hook would have been behind schedule even if he'd been about 16 when he got into the navy. I could imagine him learning navigation by observation as an enslaved deckhand, and maybe he had a head for mathematics (I don't think the writers ever realized that Hook doing the kind of navigation he did would have had to be a whiz at math and could probably do trigonometry in his head). But that wouldn't explain the manners, the foreign language skills (and, really, they had Greek in that other world?), and the overall bearing. He might have learned to somewhat imitate it, but I don't think it would have stuck the way it has centuries after leaving the navy if it hadn't become second nature over the course of more than a few years. Not to mention, it's hard to imagine that just finding a legendary gemstone would be enough to not only get two former deckhands commissions in the navy, but also allow them to rise quickly through the ranks even without all the background and training, to the point that they were commanding one of the prize ships and were being sent on a sensitive, critical mission..

Before we actually saw his backstory in "Swan Song" and here, I'd come up with a story that I felt reconciled everything about his character -- that after his father abandoned him, he was fending for himself in a port town when he was set upon by a gang of older boys. He was bravely standing his ground when an older boy on his way home from school saw this and intervened. He was Liam Jones, son of an admiral, and he took the little boy home with him to get his cuts and bruises tended to. His parents ended up adopting little Killian, and he adored his adopted big brother, admiring him for saving his life. Naturally, both boys ended up in the navy and did well, since their father was so highly placed. But the father had started noticing something odd about the way the king was acting and raised concerns, which led to him being sent on what amounted to a suicide mission. And then the sons were also sent on a risky mission as a way of getting them out of the way. I figured that would account for the abandonment story that didn't mention a brother, as well as all of Hook's knowledge and manners and the position he and his brother had. It would also show why he might have snapped upon losing Liam, if he'd lost his initial family, was fortunate enough to find a new one, and then he lost them. He could have been both a child abandoned by a criminal father and a gentleman trained for the navy who could do complex navigation and fit right in at a royal ball.

7 hours ago, profdanglais said:

Interestingly I was just chatting with a friend about how well OUAT's Hook fits Barrie's original description of the character: Handsome, blue eyed, gentlemanly, educated, dangerous. I do not for one second believe that A&E intended this, mostly because in these later seasons they did their very best to destroy it.

The writers may not have intended it and were lucky that Colin fit a lot of the physical description, but there's a feature on the season 2 DVDs about Hook, and Colin most definitely was working from the book in developing his portrayal. He'd read the book and paid attention to how that character was depicted in the story.

[Camera One]

After Hook became a pirate, he was visited by a fairy-in-training, Sprinkles, who used her fairy dust to make him fully educated, hoping it would steer him away from darkness.  It didn't work.  Blue fired her and she went to live alone in some jungle.

[profdanglais]

6 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

The writers may not have intended it and were lucky that Colin fit a lot of the physical description, but there's a feature on the season 2 DVDs about Hook, and Colin most definitely was working from the book in developing his portrayal. He'd read the book and paid attention to how that character was depicted in the story.

At least someone was doing their job properly. It's too bad all his efforts were torpedoed later on. 

[Iju]

i don't like how they made liam do something like this. can't he just have been a good person? yes make him flawed and make killian realize that, but he doesn't need to be in the damn underworld. whether liam made himself look perfect was actually irrelevant, little sibs look up to their older siblings regardless just as killian did without the lie liam made. it's just happens. i'm a defender of sibling relationships because they're treated so horribly.

the push for emma and hook will always be grating to me since to this episode we still don't have any genuine reasons to even be best friends 🤷 i don't know if i'll ever get over it honestly. milah and him are much better imo.

i don't understand why there are people hating on henry's obsession to being a hero. he's a kid and is allowed to do things kids would do. chill lol

Edited February 7, 2020 by Iju