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S12.E15: I Am Not Waiting Anymore

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Just because Arizona was, maybe, April's doctor in the past does not mean that she is April's doctor now.

 

The doctor-patient confidentiality lasts as long as the 2 people are in the professional relationship.  And then the doctor has to keep confidential, in perpetuity, what she learned about the patient during the time that they were in a professional relationship.

 

However, if she learns something new about her patient, after the professional relationship is over, in theory she can say what she wants, just like any civilian is free to say that they want.  

 

I would argue that Arizona learned about April's pregnancy in a social setting- in April's home, after offering her alcohol after April came back from the divorce proceedings.  She is not April's OB-GYN.  She is not April's primary care doctor.  The only way she would have a professional relationship with April is if the fetus needed a physician that specialized in intra-uterine surgery. That is it.  And right now, all one knows is that April is pregnant and nothing is known about if the kid needs surgery.

 

Now, whether or not it was a good idea to tell Jackson is another matter.  But it was not a fireable offense under breaking HIPAA laws.

 

As for April- yes, she should have told Jackson.  But most people don't start telling others until at least 12 weeks because there is a high risk of miscarriage and April was just at the 12 week stage when she went up to tell Jackson. Given that they were divorced, and that Jackson would have complicated feelings about the pregnancy, I think she was right to hold off telling him until she felt more medically certain that the pregnancy would continue.

 

And I think that Jackson was an idiot to suggest abortion- he knows she would never go for that and it shows his disrespect for her faith and principles for him to even suggest it.

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Arizona did perform a test on April when she was pregnant, it was the scene where she described herself as the "little gun" and Herman as the "big gun".

 

According to the OI Foundation website, for Type II OI there is a 2-4% risk of a subsequent child having the condition. They recommend genetic counseling before attempting another pregnancy.

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I just can't like Riggs. He keeps sticking his nose into places where he shoudn't (telling Penny to do the procedure instead of calling her attending) and telling Owen he's sick is way out of line. As I understood it, Owen's sister got on an evac place that ended up missing. They both looked for her but eventually Owen gave up and decided she was lost and blames Riggs. Riggs never stopped looking for her. From where I sit the person who finally accepted that she was lost is the healthy reaction, not the one Riggs had. And I know that medical personnel made sick jokes about patients to ease the tension, Riggs' comments such as "she's circling the drain" and deliberately encouraging hope in hopeless cases moves beyond black humour into disrespect.

 

But ...but...  Riggs' did what Amelia should have been doing in that case, which was teaching the resident and allowing them to do a procedure on a service they should be learning.  Amelia is so much in her feels about Penny/Derek that she was not doing her due diligence as a doctor in a teaching hospital.  If anything, Riggs was being the professional in that case.

 

Also,  I don't thinks Riggs' assessment of Owen was out of line.  It isn't because Owen healthily accepted his sister's death.  It is because Owen keeps insisting that Riggs is the one that "killed" his sister and is holding onto a rather unhealthy rage at Riggs because of it.  If Owen insists on being mad at anyone, he should be mad at his maybe-not-really-dead sister because she insisted on getting on the plane to see her patient.  I presume she was a grown ass woman so she had some agency there.  And honestly it may be a case of misplaced anger.  He really is angry at his sister, but Riggs is the one who is conveniently around and is the only one he can unleash his anger out on.  That doesn't mean I co-sign on Owen. I think he's a dick, really.

 

Speaking of dicks... I thought Jackson's heaving anger just seemed so OOC.  I felt like I was being manipulated to feel more sympathetic toward April.  And I hated it because it was unnecessary.  There was no need to show Jackson and grabbing her to sway opinion against him.  In my opinion both April and Jackson are just the absolute worst.  Separate, they are fine characters, together as Japril, they form one super annoying entity that makes me just want to nut punch them (thanks DeLuca!).  One thing that their episode from a few weeks ago did was make it clear that they simply don't know each other and they can not communicate with each other.  This episode crystallized that further.  I am 100% behind April's refusal to use her child to hang onto a husband that didn't want her.  I am also 100% behind her assertion that her body-her choice.  But her refusal to proceed with her pregnancy with all available information about her child's health is just dumb.  What is she not going to do any prenatal testing?   Ultra-sound?  Blood test to check for neural tube defects? Down syndrome?  There are a bunch of simple routine tests that every doctor recommends for pregnant women.  Not knowing about the possible health issues of your child in utero doesn't mean they aren't going to happen and doesn't mean you have to abort, but it does mean that you can make some psychological preparations. 

 

I sincerely hope they don;t get back together.  Stick a fork in them.

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The show didn't implied she wasn't doing any test, all that she doesn't want to do is test for OI and she isn't far along to test for OI anyway. She is doing the simple routine test, that probably how she knows are far along she is.

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Hey, wait a minute...Didn't Cristina violate HPPA when she told Alex and Bailey about Izzie's cancer?

 

I think what Jackson is displaying is a wide range of emotions. Just like a typical guy he will do whatever it takes to protect himself from an emotional pain. Watching Samuel die was the worst emotional feeling in his life, and he never wants to feel it again. So the anger, the option to abort the pregnancy early if the child is not healthy are just ways of him throwing up shield so that he doesn't become emotionally invested. I truly believe that Jackson is still very much in love with April, but after Samuel and Jordan or wherever April went, he wants to do everything possible to protect his heart.

 

 

I loved Amelia in this episode.

 

Anyone notice how when Stephanie said the engagement ring was still in the drawer, Meredith's head snapped up? 

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I'm good with Jackson protecting himself from pain, just as I'm good with April doing it by relying on her religion. He just doesn't get to protect himself by hurting April. Did she know it would turn out like this and that's why she was avoiding telling him?

 

But ...but...  Riggs' did what Amelia should have been doing in that case, which was teaching the resident and allowing them to do a procedure on a service they should be learning.  Amelia is so much in her feels about Penny/Derek that she was not doing her due diligence as a doctor in a teaching hospital.  If anything, Riggs was being the professional in that case.

I agree, Amelia wasn't teaching Penny for emotional reasons and that is why Webber was so very wrong to force Amelia to work with Penny. Meredith got over it and taught Penny but it took a long time and Meredith is a colder fish than Amelia.

This is a show full of people who have no boundaries so it's not surprising that Riggs told Penny what to do but it was still wrong. Penny wasn't his resident, she was Amelia's.

The other question I have is 'If Penny screwed up the procedure, being on her first day on Amelia's service, did Riggs, who is not a neurosurgeon, have the expertise to fix the situation?' I know Penny had done one before but maybe it wasn't as dangerous as this one. If he didn't, then he had no right telling Penny to do it.

Riggs has still to prove his worth to me.

 

It was quite an interesting case and Tess was probably an allusion to Megan as with all the hope there she might wake up one day and also Megan might come back one day. Nathan still has hope it seems to me.

It will be interesting to see if Riggs has hope or just contempt for the families of patients.

Though since it's GA, I'm 98% convinced that Megan will show up this season or next. Probably just as Riggs gets into a serious relationship with someone (Mer?) who is going to be hurt when his ex shows up.

Edited by statsgirl
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Arizona did perform a test on April when she was pregnant, it was the scene where she described herself as the "little gun" and Herman as the "big gun".

 

According to the OI Foundation website, for Type II OI there is a 2-4% risk of a subsequent child having the condition. They recommend genetic counseling before attempting another pregnancy.

Well its too late to have genetic testing before attempting another pregnancy since she's already pregnant. And I believe testing for OI can be very invasive at that the risk of miscarriage from testing for OI is greater than the risk of their baby having it. So in that case I don't necessarily disagree with April. The show really should specify how much of a possibility it is that their baby has OI

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I have been on Jackson's side throughout the Japril saga, but the apartment scene was the first time I was 100% behind April.

I don't get why Jackson would even bring up "options" when

A) He knows April would never abort,

B) Why stake your claim as the father if you want the option of getting rid of the being that makes you a father? Just walking away would bring the same result.

C) If the baby had OI, it would actually make Jackson feel better to abort than have the baby die naturally?

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Just because Arizona was, maybe, April's doctor in the past does not mean that she is April's doctor now.

 

The doctor-patient confidentiality lasts as long as the 2 people are in the professional relationship.  And then the doctor has to keep confidential, in perpetuity, what she learned about the patient during the time that they were in a professional relationship.

 

However, if she learns something new about her patient, after the professional relationship is over, in theory she can say what she wants, just like any civilian is free to say that they want.  

 

I would argue that Arizona learned about April's pregnancy in a social setting- in April's home, after offering her alcohol after April came back from the divorce proceedings.  She is not April's OB-GYN.  She is not April's primary care doctor.  The only way she would have a professional relationship with April is if the fetus needed a physician that specialized in intra-uterine surgery. That is it.  And right now, all one knows is that April is pregnant and nothing is known about if the kid needs surgery.

 

 

As I talked about in one of my other posts - doctor-patient confidentiality also applies to a potential patient. They had multiple conversations where Robbins asked her to come in and have tests and be a patient - those conversations make April a potential patient, which means the fact that April is pregnant is medical information that Robbins knows as a potential doctor and so doctor-patient confidentiality would apply starting from the first time Arizona approached April to be tested.

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Hey, wait a minute...Didn't Cristina violate HPPA when she told Alex and Bailey about Izzie's cancer?

 

I think they've all probably violated HPPA at some point. They are always gossiping about each other and even patients.

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I have been on Jackson's side throughout the Japril saga, but the apartment scene was the first time I was 100% behind April.

I don't get why Jackson would even bring up "options" when

A) He knows April would never abort,

B) Why stake your claim as the father if you want the option of getting rid of the being that makes you a father? Just walking away would bring the same result.

C) If the baby had OI, it would actually make Jackson feel better to abort than have the baby die naturally?

That's the thing, they aborted last time because the baby was suffering in utero. That makes a huge difference in this story. A termination induction is an abortion...April has had an abortion. They come in many forms and for many different reasons.

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That's the thing, they aborted last time because the baby was suffering in utero. That makes a huge difference in this story. A termination induction is an abortion...April has had an abortion. They come in many forms and for many different reasons.

But Jackson was implying a regular abortion this episode, which April would absolutely not do.

And anyway, termination induction, to my mind, and possibly April's mind, seems different than an abortion because nothing is done to the baby. It's the mother that is medically induced to deliver early, but the baby is allowed to die naturally on his/her own time.

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I have one question (I know nothing about HIPAA or how hospitals are run): if Bailey can fire Arizona, how would the whole her owning a part of the hospital work out? Isn't she, theoretically, Bailey's boss?

 

I actually enjoyed most of the episode. As a guy, I'm not sure I would side with Jackson right now (the whole abortion thing) but I'm also not sure I'd be okay with knowing that my potential child could be carrying a serious disease which their mother won't get tested for? It's a conundrum for sure.

 

The less Penny the better. In fact, I'd be ecstatic if they wrote her off completely. Give her screen time to Stephanie, Jo or best of all, Alex!

Edited by kdm07

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I have been on Jackson's side throughout the Japril saga, but the apartment scene was the first time I was 100% behind April.

I don't get why Jackson would even bring up "options" when

A) He knows April would never abort,

B) Why stake your claim as the father if you want the option of getting rid of the being that makes you a father? Just walking away would bring the same result.

C) If the baby had OI, it would actually make Jackson feel better to abort than have the baby die naturally?

My only issue with April not doing the testing is she is not allowing for any preparation if something is wrong.

 

If she doesn't want to abort that's her choice, but she should ensure that she and Jackson are fully prepared for the future.

 

Whatever reason April decided to keep the news from Jackson, it wasn't for his sake as she tried to frame it the episode before when she was talking to Alex.  She was still doing it for her own sake and that's not okay.  It doesn't matter if things get messy once he finds out, it only makes things worse the longer she keeps the news to herself.  The theory that you don't start telling people until about 12 weeks makes sense if she doesn't tell Arizona and confirm Alex's suspicions.  She did and at that point she should have told Jackson.

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Arizona did perform a test on April when she was pregnant, it was the scene where she described herself as the "little gun" and Herman as the "big gun".

 

Thank you.  I totally forgot the big gun little gun!

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Riggs has still to prove his worth to me.

 

It will be interesting to see if Riggs has hope or just contempt for the families of patients.

Though since it's GA, I'm 98% convinced that Megan will show up this season or next. Probably just as Riggs gets into a serious relationship with someone (Mer?) who is going to be hurt when his ex shows up.

Well, I myself am waiting for the other shoe to drop whether more will be revealed regarding Megan´s fate.

 

I think he felt genuine sympathy for the parents,gave them hope.I do not think it was fake. Why do you think he would feel contempt for the families of patients? What makes you think so?

However, I am waiting to see what the negative aspect of Nathan´s character will be.

 

I have to admit although the premise of Tess´s case was very emotional itself,I am not sure it drew me totally in to make me feel invested in her case. I do not know where the mistake lies - either actors´ performances or the direction went wrong or both,or the script did not do justice to this case, the whole case had so much potential.

 

Just like the transplant patient, it was totally overshadowed by Maggie and Alex arguing over Meredith´s dating in the OR.

 

Both cases had so much potential but it all went just wrong. 

Edited by NathanRiggsfan

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Hey, wait a minute...Didn't Cristina violate HPPA when she told Alex and Bailey about Izzie's cancer?

I was thinking the same thing. I feel like if Meredith was the one to tell Jackson everyone would be on Meredith's side

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Everyone on this show has likely violated HIPAA at one point or another.  I would like to think no one would be on Meredith's side if she was in Arizona's place, but who knows. 

 

I do think that Arizona will recover. Those to who she went to for absolution said no and told her she was wrong (which she was), but I don't think that means they are done with her.  Even Bailey, who was the harshest to her (outside April), expressed that she could see how Arizona was trying to do a good thing, even though she was very, very wrong.  I'm sure she'll save April's baby and all will be well with April as well. 

Edited by pennben

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It would not be consistent with Meredith's character for her to blab a secret. Meredith Grey is like the Fort Knox of secrets.

 

 

We can compare Arizona's situation with Alex telling Hunt that Meredith messed with the Alz. Trial. He spilled the beans while drunk, and everyone including Hunt was mad at him for it. On one hand Alex was right to tell someone what he saw, on the other he betrayed a friend. It's all a gray area.

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Alex wasn't drunk, he was playing drunk and what Meredith did with the Alz trial could have and should have cause her her medical license 

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I would like to think no one would be on Meredith's side if she was in Arizona's place, but who knows.

 

I think they all would be on Meredith's side if it was her, its always that way.  The trial is a good example - what she did was largely ignored (Richard even took the fall for her after he himself blamed Alex) and Alex was admonished. Alex may have told on his friend but Meredith broke all kinds of laws and probably screwed the hospital and her fellow doctors out of trials.  Meredith also broke the rules of the previous trial and that was ignored too. They've all broken rules but Meredith generally will skate by while others are punished. Its Arizona's turn I guess.

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Yeah, you are probably right. However, Richard trying to take the fall in that case was appropriate.  He was Meredith's superior and pressured her.  Beyond that, there was a personal connection he was playing on and pressuring her with.  He should have taken a fall.  Meredith was not without fault and should have taken a fall as well.  

 

Nothing makes that right for anyone, nor does anything ignored earlier make it right for Arizona.  I'm not saying "off with her head"!  I'm saying, 'no, you were wrong, we aren't going to diminish that, even though we might forgive you'.  But I can see the anger about earlier Meredith issues being dealt with differently.

Edited by pennben
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I'm guessing Arizona didn't really violate any privacy laws, but she should still have minded her own business. Of course, no one does on this show. I was annoyed at both Jackson and April here, but more so at Jackson. It's funny that when Owen and Christina were married, the forum consensus was that a husband has zero rights regarding his unborn child, but now it seems like the divorced dad as more rights than the mother. I am in the middle; the father has certain rights, but he can't really overrule what the woman does with her body. And since they are divorced, April had the right to choose the time to tell him about the baby. He doesn't have to be a part of it if he doesn't want to, but he has no right to ask her to abort.

 

And I wish people would quit saying that April chose to abort her child. This is simply not true. If a child is dying or dead in utero, labor will have to be induced. In this case, a team of doctors had to convince April that her child was suffering and would continue to suffer until the poor thing died. April's only choices were to wait until the child died while knowing it was suffering, or ending it's suffering earlier. She had no choices regarding delivering a healthy child by natural means. So no, it was not a termination or abortion (the idea behind the procedure was not to terminate an unwanted pregnancy but to end the suffering of a dying fetus). 

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No way.  Amelia will only get crushed when the MIA ex-wife/Owen's sister is unexpectedly found to be not dead and walks into the hospital.  Pure speculation on my part, but I am convinced the dead-sister is getting so much screen time because she's going to show up not-dead one day.

Omg you think she's alive???

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Omg you think she's alive???

 

I do think so.  On this show, it's not only possible but likely.   Remember:  Dead Denny Sex

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I also was shocked to discover that I liked Amelia this episode. She was sweet to Meredith with giving her the clothes for the date, and it was nice to see her simply walk away from Owen without screaming or otherwise pitching a fit and making his drinking all about her. If they could keep her like this and get rid of Penny, that would take care of about 90 percent of my complaints about the show.

I liked how she behaved to Meredith,too.

 

However, I see the Owen thing differently, I am aware she is a recovering alcohol addict and it was wise for HER to leave,but as a friend of Owen she should have stayed and helped him somehow. 

 

It is a bit similar to S5 when he came to the date with Cristina drunk and he was late - because the encounter with

Derek´s mother  back then he remembered his past in Iraq just like now Nathan brought back the memories of Megan he was trying to forget. When he got into the shower with his pain,Cristina did not send him away,she did not run away,she stepped into the shower with him, thus, she shared his pain and helped to comfort him. It is an unforgettable scene directed by the French director Jeannot Szwarc.

 

Amelia should not have walked away from him and leave him in the state that he was, it was the easiest thing for her to do. She should have at least tried to find out what went on with Riggs and why Owen was upset,but she could care less,it was only about her pain once again,and she felt hurt because he forgot about her.

 

Cristina would have behaved differently,but she is a much stronger woman than Amelia ever will be. I saw a wonderful image tweeted of these two situations put together like  a collage by a fan - this trailer scene with Amelia walking away and Crowen date from Season 5 with Cristina in the shower with Owen, I am glad some people remembered the striking difference between Amelia and Cristina and how both of them behaved so differently.

 

That Crowen shower scene was one of  a kind and it was Cristina´s willingness to step into Owen´s pain and share it, very easily she could have thrown him out of her house or leave him there on his own just what Amelia did. 

Edited by NathanRiggsfan

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I just kept thinking the one who looks really pregnant is Arizona, not Kepner.

 

I'm pretty sure that Jessica Capshaw really is pregnant. My guess is a lot of shots behind counters and carrying big bags and shoulder-up shots.

 

Arizona was April's doctor for the 1st pregnancy so legally speaking once it's established that she is or was her doctor, any medical information about April that Arizona learns is confidential, no matter how she got the information or if she was still treating April.

 

Arizona was April's doctor for the fetal surgery. April's refusal to conduct any tests that would make her a candidate for fetal surgery and her current medical state that (a) is unrelated to Arizona's field of practice- she's not a obstetrician, after all, and (b) is known to Arizona through purely social mean would point to Arizona having plenty of defense against any medical ethics violation charges. Telling Jackson against April's wishes was a crappy thing to do as a friend, but you can't be fired for breaking the girlfriend-code.

 

Remember:  Dead Denny Sex

 

Ugh, do I have to? I've been trying to forget that plotline for years.

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Also it seems odd that Owen is still living in the trailer.  It's been years.  I'm not even sure where it's supposed to be parked at this point.  

Yes,since episode 4 in S8 when Cristina was in Minnesota.4 seasons - how many years on Greys? 5 years maybe as they had one year passed from Derek´s death in S11. Even in Crowen AU - S 10 - he still lived in the trailer. We never even knew where he stayed in S5 until he sort of stayed at Cristina´s and Callie´s place.

 

Shellie, I remember your name from somewhere - are you still or did you use to be a Crowen fan?   How do you feel about Owen being with Amelia? Is Megan alive? Do you still care about Owen?

 

I myself used to be  a Crowen fan. 

Edited by NathanRiggsfan

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As I talked about in one of my other posts - doctor-patient confidentiality also applies to a potential patient. They had multiple conversations where Robbins asked her to come in and have tests and be a patient - those conversations make April a potential patient, which means the fact that April is pregnant is medical information that Robbins knows as a potential doctor and so doctor-patient confidentiality would apply starting from the first time Arizona approached April to be tested.

I disagree.  In this case, April was actively rejecting any testing.  In other words, she was rejecting being a patient of Arizona.  Just because AZ wanted April to be her patient does not mean that April was her patient. April had to have agreed to be her patient in order for there to be doctor-patient confidentiality (obviously this does not apply to unconscious patients, etc) and April was clearly rejecting any and all overtures by AZ to be her doctor.  She only told AZ her pregnancy status in a "friend" setting and rejected all offers for there to be a doctor-patient relationship, at this time, for this pregnancy.

 

What AZ was crappy as a friend but not as a doctor.

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I liked how she behaved to Meredith,too.

 

However, I see the Owen thing differently, I am aware she is a recovering alcohol addict and it was wise for HER to leave,but as a friend of Owen she should have stayed and helped him somehow. 

 

It is a bit similar to S5 when he came to the date with Cristina drunk and he was late - because the encounter with

Derek´s mother  back then he remembered his past in Iraq just like now Nathan brought back the memories of Megan he was trying to forget. When he got into the shower with his pain,Cristina did not send him away,she did not run away,she stepped into the shower with him, thus, she shared his pain and helped to comfort him. It is an unforgettable scene directed by the French director Jeannot Szwarc.

 

Amelia should not have walked away from him and leave him in the state that he was, it was the easiest thing for her to do. She should have at least tried to find out what went on with Riggs and why Owen was upset,but she could care less,it was only about her pain once again,and she felt hurt because he forgot about her.

 

Cristina would have behaved differently,but she is a much stronger woman than Amelia ever will be. I saw a wonderful image tweeted of these two situations put together like  a collage by a fan - this trailer scene with Amelia walking away and Crowen date from Season 5 with Cristina in the shower with Owen, I am glad some people remembered the striking difference between Amelia and Cristina and how both of them behaved so differently.

 

That Crowen shower scene was one of  a kind and it was Cristina´s willingness to step into Owen´s pain and share it, very easily she could have thrown him out of her house or leave him there on his own just what Amelia did. 

 

As an addict, Amelia's first responsibility is to her sobriety.  Period.  She did a very wise thing by getting out of McDrunky's trailer so as to make sure she didn't end up wasted along with him.

 

As for Cristina stepping to his Owen's pain...yeah, that didn't really work out that well for them.  I don't think I'd recommend Amelia or anyone stepping into Owen's pain.  I'd recommend he go to therapy and get his head on straight before he tries to get into any romantic relationships with anyone.  It shouldn't have been Cristina's job to try to heal Owen, and it most certainly isn't Amelia's job nor in her best interests OR Owen's best interests since he needs professional help.

 

I'd say Amelia is being a hell of a lot smarter than Cristina was, as it relates to Owen's psychological issues.

Edited by izabella
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I feel like violating HIPAA is basically the premise of this entire show. It drives the whole plot. It just feels mean to fire someone for it NOW.

Dear Shonda Rimes: Please kill Owen. or Amelia. ONE OF THEM. And put the remaining survivor with someone who isn't a complete tragedywhore trainwreck. Thank you. Love, Lucy.

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As an addict, Amelia's first responsibility is to her sobriety.  Period.  She did a very wise thing by getting out of McDrunky's trailer so as to make sure she didn't end up wasted along with him.

 

As for Cristina stepping to his Owen's pain...yeah, that didn't really work out that well for them.  I don't think I'd recommend Amelia or anyone stepping into Owen's pain.  I'd recommend he go to therapy and get his head on straight before he tries to get into any romantic relationships with anyone.  It shouldn't have been Cristina's job to try to heal Owen, and it most certainly isn't Amelia's job nor in her best interests OR Owen's best interests since he needs professional help.

 

I'd say Amelia is being a hell of a lot smarter than Cristina was, as it relates to Owen's psychological issues.

I agree.  I'm not certain anyone other than a professional could help Owen, but Amelia absolutely could not be that person under those circumstances.  She was absolutely right to get herself out of that situation.  And it should show her that Owen is not in a good place for a relationship with anyone, let alone a recovering addict. 

 

I was not as anti-Crowen as many on this board, but I did think that Cristina shouldering so much was unfair and a little unhealthy.  It wasn't good for them and their dynamic and she wasn't even a recovering addict.  It would be even worse for Amelia. 

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I was not as anti-Crowen as many on this board, but I did think that Cristina shouldering so much was unfair and a little unhealthy.  It wasn't good for them and their dynamic and she wasn't even a recovering addict.  It would be even worse for Amelia. 

 

izabella said:
As an addict, Amelia's first responsibility is to her sobriety.  Period.  She did a very wise thing by getting out of McDrunky's trailer so as to make sure she didn't end up wasted along with him.

As for Cristina stepping to his Owen's pain...yeah, that didn't really work out that well for them.  I don't think I'd recommend Amelia or anyone stepping into Owen's pain.  I'd recommend he go to therapy and get his head on straight before he tries to get into any romantic relationships with anyone.  It shouldn't have been Cristina's job to try to heal Owen, and it most certainly isn't Amelia's job nor in her best interests OR Owen's best interests since he needs professional help.

I'd say Amelia is being a hell of a lot smarter than Cristina was, as it relates to Owen's psychological issues.

 

 

The point of S5 for Crowen was Owen suffering from PTSD and Cristina trying to help him heal until he was triggered by the fan, choked her and went into therapy.

 

I do respect Crowen´s lovestory from S5 so much. It is sacred for me. One may argue Amelia is smarter to step away from this than Cristina. I disagree. It was Cristina´s love, engagement and support  that helped Owen to heal.  Yes, therapy helped him and them as well, but her love for him was all that mattered and pushed him to heal, to be a better man for her.

 

At this point in time, it is wise for Owen to go to therapy, but he needs a friend,too.  

Amelia is a different woman,yes,she puts her health first, but Cristina was able to sacrifice more.  It is a matter of personal choice, Amelia chose herself, Cristina chose Owen.I do not think it was unhealthy what Cristina did and also the storyline did not go in this direction. It only showed she was able to handle it until the choking happened and he needed professional help.

 

One can respect Amelia walking away from this,she has a right to do so,for her own good,yet the question remains - what would she have done if she was not a recovering addict? Would she have stayed? I doubt it.

And whether she left for her own sobriety being reason No1 or feeling hurt that Owen forgot about their date being reason No1. It was not made 100% clear why she left. 

I am inclined to believe her No1 reason to leave was not to protect her own sobriety - looking at her facial expressions after leaving the trailer. To me she looked all hurt he forgot about her and did not exactly say to her what happened with Riggs.  She looked all upset, tears almost in her eyes. Was she having such a strong emotional reaction fearing her own relapse? I don´t think so.  

Edited by NathanRiggsfan

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But Cristina was not a recovering addict. Of course she's "stronger" than Amelia but it's not a fair comparison.

 

As for Arizona and April, well, April could not have made it any clearer that she does not want to be treated by Arizona, so I'm not so sure that she can even be seen as her "potential doctor". In that case, literally every relationship in a doctor's life would be with potential patients, they'd basically never be legally allowed to tell anything to anyone. I'm not sure the case would hold if Arizona took it to court. But of course, it's meaningless to think about it as it's clear she won't be getting fired. 

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Does Meredith really have to date? Not all widows "move on" with someone else, so I didn't like all the speeches Meredith was getting about how much she needs to date. This show is acting like dating is Meredith's only way to prove she's over Derek's death, but there are many, many widows who live a happy, fulfilled life without ever dating again, and it pisses me off that the show, for all of its feminist noise, isn't allowing Meredith to be single and happy without Derek and without dating. I wonder if any of the writers even thought to make the case for a single Meredith enjoying her children and career without needing a new man at all.    

I like your thoughts.

I honestly do not get the point of this Thorpe storyline. And all of this dating to prove something.

And all the stuff Callie said about getting back on the horse. Stupid.

They should treat the widow storyline with more respect and also Maggie blabbing about train just getting into the station and all those stupidities. 

 

However, you will probably disagree, but what I would wish for Meredith just maybe friendship with another man at first,apart from Alex,not necessarily a new love affair. 

I wish she befriended Nathan who after losing Megan and Meredith losing Derek both could confide in one another,it could lead to something very nice, not even necessarily romantic.

Edited by NathanRiggsfan

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Yes,since episode 4 in S8 when Cristina was in Minnesota.4 seasons - how many years on Greys? 5 years maybe as they had one year passed from Derek´s death in S11. Even in Crowen AU - S 10 - he still lived in the trailer. We never even knew where he stayed in S5 until he sort of stayed at Cristina´s and Callie´s place.

 

Shellie, I remember your name from somewhere - are you still or did you use to be a Crowen fan?   How do you feel about Owen being with Amelia? Is Megan alive? Do you still care about Owen?

 

I myself used to be  a Crowen fan. 

 

I haven't posted much at all on this forum and don't know if I ever posted anything about Owen/Cristina/Crowen . . .  I don't have the negative feelings about Owen and Amelia, together or separate, that I see expressed here a lot, but I wouldn't say I'm a big fan of either of them.  Their relationship has gone on and on and on too long for me for it to be of much interest at this point.  I don't care about Megan because that whole storyline came out of nowhere.  Like, uh, what?

 

I wonder where that trailer is parked, as I assume Meredith sold the property.  

 

And, Cristina in southern Minnesota was some of the worst Grey's TV IMO because they implied there was a gigantic blizzard in September, which is foolishness.  

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And whether she left for her own sobriety being reason No1 or feeling hurt that Owen forgot about their date being reason No1. It was not made 100% clear why she left. 

I am inclined to believe her No1 reason to leave was not to protect her own sobriety - looking at her facial expressions after leaving the trailer. To me she looked all hurt he forgot about her and did not exactly say to her what happened with Riggs.  She looked all upset, tears almost in her eyes. Was she having such a strong emotional reaction fearing her own relapse? I don´t think so.  

 

There was a lot going on there, and I think it includes her realization that she cannot be with him at all if he behaves like this.  That means the relationship is over.  

 

Although it does make me wonder how she can tolerate all the boozing that goes on at Meredith's place. 

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I am inclined to believe her No1 reason to leave was not to protect her own sobriety - looking at her facial expressions after leaving the trailer. To me she looked all hurt he forgot about her and did not exactly say to her what happened with Riggs.  She looked all upset, tears almost in her eyes. Was she having such a strong emotional reaction fearing her own relapse? I don´t think so.  

 

Because she cares about him and wants to be with him, but realizes she can't because he's a mess himself and she can't pull him through it as she would drag herself down just as she's starting to recover. Naturally she's sad. 

Edited by Joana
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There was a lot going on there, and I think it includes her realization that she cannot be with him at all if he behaves like this.  That means the relationship is over.  

 

Although it does make me wonder how she can tolerate all the boozing that goes on at Meredith's place. 

Fair point indeed. Thanks for this.

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I haven't posted much at all on this forum and don't know if I ever posted anything about Owen/Cristina/Crowen . . .  I don't have the negative feelings about Owen and Amelia, together or separate, that I see expressed here a lot, but I wouldn't say I'm a big fan of either of them.  Their relationship has gone on and on and on too long for me for it to be of much interest at this point.  I don't care about Megan because that whole storyline came out of nowhere.  Like, uh, what?

 

I wonder where that trailer is parked, as I assume Meredith sold the property.  

 

And, Cristina in southern Minnesota was some of the worst Grey's TV IMO because they implied there was a gigantic blizzard in September, which is foolishness.  

Thanks for the reply. It is nice of you.

It must have been on another forum then a few years ago- Shellie who was a Crowen fan. I got it mixed up. Sorry.

 

Yes,Megan came out of nowhere.

 

It seemed to have been parked elsewhere in S8. This seems like a new place.

Edited by NathanRiggsfan

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Does Meredith really have to date? Not all widows "move on" with someone else, so I didn't like all the speeches Meredith was getting about how much she needs to date. This show is acting like dating is Meredith's only way to prove she's over Derek's death, but there are many, many widows who live a happy, fulfilled life without ever dating again, and it pisses me off that the show, for all of its feminist noise, isn't allowing Meredith to be single and happy without Derek and without dating. I wonder if any of the writers even thought to make the case for a single Meredith enjoying her children and career without needing a new man at all.

As far as April and Jackson go, I agree that April has the right to say no to an abortion if the fetus has OPI again, but I think Jackson has the right to know whether or not the fetus is even viable. He needs to plan or mourn even if April wants to live in fantasy land where God decides which fetuses get diseased and which don't based on how much faith the mother has. Does April realize how disgusting she sounds by suggesting that if she has faith, the baby will turn out fine? She makes me boil with rage when she uses her religion like this.

 

COMPLETELY agree. While I didn't hate her interaction with the doctor at the end of the episode, I don't see why Mer HAS to be dating at all. I think it's ok for her just to be happy with her friends, career and kids. The end.

 

OK....I guess I am curious here.  Jackson left her.  Shouldn't she have full autonomy over this pregnancy, baby, all choices regarding baby?  She has every legal right to terminate the pregnancy without Jackson's consent...can't she raise it without his consent?   I say she absolutely has every right to keep quiet.  It's her body, it's her baby, this has nothing to do with Jackson.  

 

I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with this at all. You say it has nothing to do with Jackson, but did she impregnate herself? I think not.

A poster earlier said that this is an interesting take on the pro-choice stance, but I also disagree with that. This is still a pro-life stance as April does not believe in abortion. While I don't think any man should dictate what a woman does with her baby, I believe he has the right to air his views on the situation. It is HIS sperm after all, making the baby half his.

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I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with this at all. You say it has nothing to do with Jackson, but did she impregnate herself? I think not.

A poster earlier said that this is an interesting take on the pro-choice stance, but I also disagree with that. This is still a pro-life stance as April does not believe in abortion. While I don't think any man should dictate what a woman does with her baby, I believe he has the right to air his views on the situation. It is HIS sperm after all, making the baby half his.

I don't agree with most of April's decisions but I think in the end although the child is half his the pregnancy is all april. I felt for Owen during the whole crowen debacle but since he can't house and nourish a fetus then ultimately it was rightfully cristina's decision whether the pregnancy goes on. I take the same stance with April. Only she can decide how and if she goes through it. Given the state of their current relationship all Jackson can do is decide if and how much he wants to be involved with the child that it produces.

Edited by tua20782
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I don't see why Mer HAS to be dating at all. I think it's ok for her just to be happy with her friends, career and kids. The end.

 

Its been over 2 years since Derek died (hasn't it?).  I agree that Meredith doesn't have to date but I see nothing wrong her trying it again. If she is ready to explore whether or not she wants to open her heart for another romance then I don't see why that's an issue.  In the end she may decide to date casually, not at all, have a serious romance, get married, live together or whatever works best for her. I don't see any as being wrong. I'd find it kind of sad if her story on Grey's ended with her completely closed off to the possibility of love in the future. 

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I don't agree with most of April's decisions but I think in the end although the child is half his the pregnancy is all april. I felt for Owen during the whole crowen debacle but since he can't house and nourish a fetus then ultimately it was rightfully cristina's decision whether the pregnancy goes on. I take the same stance with April. Only she can decide how and if she goes through it. Given the state of their current relationship all Jackson can do is decide if and how much he wants to be involved with the child that it produces.

I agree with this generally and I thought Jackson was an UTTER ASS when yelling at April at the hospital.  But I also agree that Jackson has a right to at least air his views and I wasn't at all surprised he was pissed to realize what April was really doing was waiting until there was no discussion to be had.  Of course April would never abort and Jackson has to know that. But to deliberately exclude him from the conversation is also shitty.  

 

I can sympathize with April's desire to avoid a conversation which has absolutely no hope of resolution and will ultimately change nothing about her choices; but I also understand why Jackson, in light of April's history of ignoring his feelings and preferences even where he did have rights, would be super pissed about it.  However factually accurate Aprils "It's my body and my pregnancy" stance may be, in context, it is all too characteristic of her behaviors generally.  

 

Its been over 2 years since Derek died (hasn't it?).  I agree that Meredith doesn't have to date but I see nothing wrong her trying it again. If she is ready to explore whether or not she wants to open her heart for another romance then I don't see why that's an issue.  In the end she may decide to date casually, not at all, have a serious romance, get married, live together or whatever works best for her. I don't see any as being wrong. I'd find it kind of sad if her story on Grey's ended with her completely closed off to the possibility of love in the future. 

This.  I think there is a difficult balance in a show like this wherein we were given an OTP from the pilot.  On the one hand, some people decide not to date after being widowed because they are fulfilled in other ways.  But under these circumstances, the specter or Derrick looms and it feels too much like Meredith is trapped in her widowhood (that is not the most apt phrasing, but I was struggling and gave up).  No matter how hard they tried to clarify through dialogue that it she just didn't feel the need to date, in context it would always feel a little like the show was avoiding treading on the hallowed ground of MerDer. Particularly on a show wherein sex is treated like food and anytime anyone goes without it their viewed as a freak by both themselves and their friends.

 

I think if they want to show that Meredith just doesn't want to date, it has to be shown that the reason Meredith isn't dating isn't because she feels she's cheating on Derrick. And to really establish that, she has to minimally date without guilt and then decide she just doesn't need it. At least, that's my feeling on it. 

Edited by RachelKM
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Does anyone else think April might have slipped around the bend a little bit?  Every now and then, she says something that makes me think she's gone a little nuts and maybe her depression after the baby followed by two stints of adrenaline-rush-plus-gore in Jordan (?), followed by divorce has actually escalated, rather than being in any way resolved. 

 

Example: when she was refusing the tests Arizona wanted her to take last episode and kept saying, "MY baby will be fine!"  I wasn't sure if she was deluding herself that not taking tests would mean the baby would be fine, you know, firmly planted in denial, or if that was supposed to be her religious faith talking.  And I wasn't sure if she was deliberately excluding Jackson as the father when she put that deliberate emphasis on the "MY baby" part because she didn't care to worry about Jackson or because she was blaming him for the death of Samuel (like, the last baby was Jackson's and he talked me into killing it, so this baby is going to be just MY baby).

 

I don't know if I'm making any sense.  I'm just getting weird vibes off her, like she's not as mentally healthy as she thinks she is, and it's starting to show with her living in some kind of delusional state.  Like she's headed for a nervous breakdown.

Edited by izabella

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The April/Owen scene should have been nice, but I kept expecting Owen's baby rabies to take over and do something creepy.

It seems to me this will be the baby for Owen and he will somehow co-parent her or him,like a brother figure of April or maybe even the baby´s godfather.

Edited by NathanRiggsfan

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what April was really doing was waiting until there was no discussion to be had.

 

Honestly, though, there's no discussion to be had no matter how far along she is.  It's her decision and only hers.  And it's not like she's on the fence with her feelings.  So as much as I may sympathize with Jackson (or at least, I did until he started getting physical), there's not much point in them arguing about it.  I guess he might feel better for being heard, but if she then ignores his opinion, is he any happier or better off?

 

What I don't get is... I thought when Samuel died that they were told a second baby would have no more chance of having OI than any other baby?  (On show, not in real life.)  Why are Jackson, Arizona, and even April (to me, her vehemence reads as fear) so sure that something is wrong with this one?  I'm sure that, having lived through that once, it's always in their minds, but they just seem so OTT.  "April, you must be tested so we can save this baby!"  Um, this baby that you have no reason to think has anything wrong with it?  All the freak outs and dire predictions just seem so extreme.

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