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S12.E15: I Am Not Waiting Anymore

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And the collapse of her face as she got herself out of the trailer-- so vulnerable.

 

Yeah, it was very well played. She was genuinely sad, but without any hysterics or grand speeches. I wish the show would be like that more often.

 

I was actually surprised that I kinda liked the dynamics between Meredith and the army doctor in the end. It looked like they were having fun and it wasn't unpleasant to watch.

On the other hand, I do agree with the poster who said that Meredith dating again isn't all that necessary. I dunno, from what I see it, losing a husband is much different to getting over a bad breakup, so "putting yourself out there and getting it over with" really isn't the only option. It seems perfectly normal to me that some women in such position would simply wait until there's a guy they really are interested in, if he shows up. 

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i totally agree!!  But....what kind of sitter can work extra 17 hours on a whim??  I think they just need to have both Maggie and Amelia move out and have Meredith hire a live-in nanny.  Maybe then my inner logical side screaming can be put to rest.  

 

I assumed she was calling the sitter to stay overnight and then drop the kids off at school / daycare in the morning, not necessarily stay an extra 17 hours. Just little justifications to make it all make more sense in my head, lol. 

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I agree with this. I thought there was a bit of spark between them in the last episode. It could be interesting. If they can make it happen without turning into a messy love triangle of some kind, I'm all for it. 

I too saw something between Amelia and Riggs and would love to see that explored.  I think Owen will have to leave the show for this to happen and I don't think that's happening.   Riggs is definitely growing on me.  I actually enjoy him when he's not in scenes with Owen.  I agree with BaseOps too, I like that, while he may be eventually paired with Meredith, he's not ONLY here for the sole purpose of being Mer's love interest. *cough* Jo *cough*.  

 

ITA!!! I think that's why their marriage and marriage counseling failed. They talk to each other but BOTH are not listening. When Jackson/April says something they immediately dismiss or jump all over it. They're both alike in that they over react to what the other person is saying.

Agree!  Their conversation at April's apartment started out really well and I thought for a brief second they were actually going to understand each other....until it all went downhill with Jackson bringing in abortion and April telling him he had no say in the situation.  

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I understand her idea that she wants to conduct the pregnancy as though everything is fine (since she can't change if the baby does have OI and she is unwilling to abort), but to imply that her faith is going to ensure there are no problems is a bit of a mockery of what "faith in God" really means.

 

I didn't see anywhere in the show that she meant to imply her faith is going to ensure there would be no problems.  And I saw no mockery of faith in the actions of April.  She knows it may all go sideways, but she's going to have faith along the way, even when God tells her the baby is a "no go", if you will. 

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It annoys me with April, that she had no probably with believing in god and having faith until bad shit started affecting her. She was a doc that saw terrible things but she kept faith until it involved her then she was suddenly was unsure.

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I understand the sentiment, but it's such a slippery slope and where do you draw the line? That is, when does the man get a say and in what way? Yes, it's THEIR baby, but it's HER body. Until those two things exist separately, I'm very uncomfortable with any man being able to assert his rights over what a woman does with her body. To me, that's an absolute. And BTW, I love that Grey's is addressing the pro-choice POV in a really unique way.

 

 

and this is fair, and that's why i was hesitant to say anything - and why I put the caveat in that I thankfully have never been in this situation, and when I've had friends who were, I ultimately go - well it is your decision - so you have a say. Someone said it above, I forgot who it was, but ultimately - while it is April's body - April's choices is causing Jackson not to mentally prepare for this child who has a chance to be as sick as the other one was. Like - I respect the fact that April wants to have faith (I fully accept that) and just wants to wait and see what happens - but at the same time - I just feel it's sticking her head in the sand. You can still have the tests done - and have faith that the baby is okay. it doesn't have to be 100 percent one or 100 percent other. 

 

I do feel that the baby should have the best start and preparations (regardless of what April decides) should be made healthy OR sick. the fact that Jackson's feelings isn't even being considered (or put to the point where he doesn't have a say...) it just rubs me wrong. I feel i'm not really articulating myself properly either, so I think I'll stop. I just hope the best thing is done for the child. (I do agree. this is a very interesting take on pro-choice, and I really like it. it's a thinker). 

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 (I do agree. this is a very interesting take on pro-choice, and I really like it. it's a thinker). 

 

No kidding!  Holy moly, I'm here on the boards defending "faith", which, god knows, I dropped many years ago, for better or worse.

Edited by pennben
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No kidding!  Holy moly, I'm here on the boards defending "faith", which, god knows, I dropped many years ago, for better or worse.

 

LOL and I - who am an avid believer in Faith is like. wellll. I can totally see science's side here. LOL good job, Show. Good job. 

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I wouldn't ever quit the show over it, but as someone who's favourite character is Alex as well, I feel your pain. I just keep waiting for some actual exploration of him and Jo. I love his friendship with Meredith, and I love their scenes together, but he deserves to have more outside of that. Like I said in my original post, I think if the writers want us to root for Alex / Jo, then they need to actually show us some Alex / Jo. We have about 10 episodes to go, so hopefully there is something to come.

Alex, Jo and/or Jolex may get a few scenes before the end of the season. Yes, there's 10 episodes and we know they will be filled with Meredith dating, Maggie, Owen/Riggs, Maggie, Owen/Amelia, a multiple episode guest star, Maggie, April & Jackson & Stephanie. There's been no mention of any kind of story for Alex/Jo/Jolex in the media or episode descriptions. The last time Alex/Jo had any real media mention was in August (and well, that proved to be false). Its doubtful they he/she/they will have a meaty story or any significant focus.

I know that I am broken record of bitterness

I don't think you are. Being disappointed that your favorite character gets no storyline of their own isn't being bitter and a forum like this is for discussion. Doesn't everyone want some story for their favorite(s)?  

this is a very interesting take on pro-choice, and I really like it. it's a thinker

I agree. I can't recall a story like it on TV in recent memory. Always nice to see some unique stories playing out.

Edited by windsprints
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 Doesn't everyone want some story for their favorite(s)?  

 

I wanted a story for Arizona, but what I got is her being a slut, a shitty friend and a clueless moron unable to understand the basics of human interaction, so I kinda regret that I did :o

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I do feel that the baby should have the best start and preparations (regardless of what April decides) should be made healthy OR sick. the fact that Jackson's feelings isn't even being considered (or put to the point where he doesn't have a say...) it just rubs me wrong. I feel i'm not really articulating myself properly either, so I think I'll stop. I just hope the best thing is done for the child. (I do agree. this is a very interesting take on pro-choice, and I really like it. it's a thinker).

 

It's one thing to have legal rights (April of course has the sole right to decide for her body), but that doesn't make it right for her not to tell Jackson.  I think that's where this is all rubbing me the wrong way.  I would completely agree that April has the legal right to do what she chose to do by telling Jackson he has no rights.  But, as a human being who loved Jackson and had unprotected sex with him so that there even is a baby to discuss, April is wrong, wrong, wrong because a decent human being doesn't do shit like that.

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April didn't steamrolled Jackson into anything... he broke up with her b/c she had the nerve to be happy not to be pregnant, she got married when he wanted to, interrupted her wedding to another man while breaking up with another woman without even telling said other woman so, the move into his apartment and the only thing in that that April is those freaking throw pillows. He expected her, a religious person to raise their kids as an atheist, calling her crazy etc when he knew who he married. Wanted to ship their hypothetical kids to boarding school etc. Wanted to just to fix deaf people/kids acting like there is not a deaf culture out there. People act like Jackson is a weak little wallflower, he's not. 

 

And no he doesn't get to make decision about this pregnancy, when he's married and in a relationship he can have his opinion. April is not in a relationship she can do whatever she wants with her body.  She doesn't have to consider his feeling or manpain. If he wanted to prepare himself for the possibility of losing another child he can do that with or without April getting tested or he can do like he originally wanted and walk away. His father walk away from him and he seems fine so whatever. 

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LOL and I - who am an avid believer in Faith is like. wellll. I can totally see science's side here. LOL good job, Show. Good job. 

 

Ha!!  This commercial seems weirdly appropriate:)!

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If he wanted to prepare himself for the possibility of losing another child he can do that with or without April getting tested or he can do like he originally wanted and walk away.

 

He can't do it if he doesn't even know April's pregnant. 

 

And in the end he compromised and agreed not only to his future children going to church, but also following them himself. As someone who shares his views and beliefs, I'd say it's a very big compromise. 

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I am not April's biggest fan but this is the first episode where I actually felt rage at her. She is the epitome of someone that just doesn't get it. Yes her marriage with Jackson is over. Yes, it didn't end well. None of these facts should have prevented her from telling him about the baby. She gave everyone reason in the world but the truth she didn't tell him because she didn't feel like dealing with it. Then to add insult to injury, she starts telling people where they both work.

Jackson has a right to be angry with her. She still thinks their marriage ended because she did what is best for her when their baby died but it ended because she never consults hi on anything. He was right when he told her she makes all the decisions. She did it while they were married and she is doing it now. Jackson needs to look for an attorney and start dating Stephanie again. You can be a good dad without being involved with the mother.

I do agree that Arizona should not have told Jackson but April should have never told Arizona until she told Jackson first.

Owen is next on my hit list. He is the president of Planet Pathetic. Also nice job being drunk when your addict girlfriend comes over for a date.

Amelia...you and Riggs have a vibe, dump Owen and go for him.

Meredith and her date...I don't think it will go anywhere but :) for her

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Amelia...you and Riggs have a vibe, dump Owen and go for him.

 

No way.  Amelia will only get crushed when the MIA ex-wife/Owen's sister is unexpectedly found to be not dead and walks into the hospital.  Pure speculation on my part, but I am convinced the dead-sister is getting so much screen time because she's going to show up not-dead one day.

Edited by izabella
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April didn't tell anyone she was pregnant, Arizona and Alex guess it. That all. 

Edited by gator12
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April didn't tell anyone she was pregnant, Arizona and Alex guest it. That all. 

 

 

Arizona said as a joke "Oh you can't drink, what are you pregnant." that's a sarcastic quip. April confirmed it. She didn't have to. 

Alex surmised (because he works in peds, and sees pregnant women a lot). 

 

the MOMENT April confirmed it - was the second (In my mind) she should have told Jackson. just flat out. "Okay - I wasn't sure if I was pregnant, I know we just signed the papers, I'm not using this to get back with you and i don't want anything from you because that ship is sailed - but  the test confirmed it. I do not want to go through what we went through, so i am just letting you know that plan - but I do want to take your feelings into account because it's our baby and we've got to deal with this even if he's healthy - learn how to get along.

 

There it is. 

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I'm wondering if this is the end of Owen and Amelia. They've been going back and forth aimlessly for ages, which is something even the writers acknowledged, and now they take another hit. Even if Owen comits himself seriously to this relationship now and decides to seek professional help and start counselling or whatever, it would seem so hollow as the moment just isn't there anymore and hasn't been for a long while now.

 

I wouldn't at all be opposed to Owen's departure from the show at this point. I can't see what he has to offer except for endless angst or how his character can be expanded. 

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The episode was good imo.

Loved how they played out Arizona. Her intentions are good but I am glad she is feeling guilty too. I don't think it's a confidant issue or firing offense though. Was Alex considered worth firing when he blurted out to Owen that Meredith screwed up Alzheimer's trial? Was Bailey herself considered it wrong when she injected the patient with HIV injections without parents permission ? A blame for which Stephanie took fall? They have all at some point crossed that line so it's ain't big deal for me.

What Arizona did was breach someone's trust to help them and I like how Callie and Amelia explained where exactly she was wrong. Loved the Calzona bit. Even if I don't want Calzona to reunite just yet I can't deny that that scene held more chemistry than all Callie penny scenes (yay for minimal penny but still she got something better to do than Jo & Stephanie....sigh)

What is a jolex?

Maggie DeLuca stuff was okay, I guess I handle them fine when they aren't about sex.

I have this utter disappointment in owen's character off lately that I couldn't even enjoy the team trauma scene. His reasons to hate Riggs are so pointless and pathetic that I was glad Riggs called him out. I dared to line omelia for one week and the next he decide to get drunk on s date night. Gross.

Japril stuff is such drag fest. I hated how April treated Arizona, reminded me of when Meredith kicked the door on Callie's face. Someone pointed out and I conquer that you don't pull 'hell' on a gay woman. She lived through that shit her entire life.

April's arrogance over the fact that her baby would be fine because she choose to have faith in God makes me want to there be something wrong with the baby. But then I see Jackson's arrogance where he's already thinking about the ways the baby can be get rid off if there's something wrong that I want April to have a healthy baby and rub it on that douche's face.

Really the way he grabbed April in a crowded ER and the yelling in public got my blood boiling when I don't even like April. It was such an sexist way of him to act like he own April. Uh gross.

Where was Ben?

Is it just me or Alex's big transplant surgery just became an background record with all the Meredith dating drama? Two back to back episodes of Callie and Arizona doing successful surgeries with 'that surgery' being central attention made me feel like Alex's surgery was just filler.

I liked all the Meredith bits. I like how she has mixed feelings, I liked how Alex knew what to say unlike Maggie who has zero subtlety.

Next episode promo has me worried though? If you have three kids, will you take your casual date to home? And the said date is roaming around shirtless?

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Daisy wrote:

"Okay - I wasn't sure if I was pregnant, I know we just signed the papers, I'm not using this to get back with you and i don't want anything from you because that ship is sailed - but  the test confirmed it. I do not want to go through what we went through, so i am just letting you know that plan - but I do want to take your feelings into account because it's our baby and we've got to deal with this even if he's healthy - learn how to get along."

 

Amen.  If she could have stuttered out half of this... I would have been so proud of her. 

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There are two things about residential settings I don't get.  I've watched nearly every episode of this show, although not always very closely.  I don't understand the gigantic painting/photo of men's shoes at the entryway of April's place?  Has that ever been mentioned?

 

Also it seems odd that Owen is still living in the trailer.  It's been years.  I'm not even sure where it's supposed to be parked at this point.  

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April's place is Jackson's place, so that shoe painting or photo is his art.  He lived there before they got married, they lived there together after marriage, he lived there when she left him, and then he just gave it to her when he went to stay with Ben and Bailey.  I have no idea where he lives now. 

Edited by izabella
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There are two things about residential settings I don't get. I've watched nearly every episode of this show, although not always very closely. I don't understand the gigantic painting/photo of men's shoes at the entryway of April's place? Has that ever been mentioned?

Also it seems odd that Owen is still living in the trailer. It's been years. I'm not even sure where it's supposed to be parked at this point.

I can't find it right now, but I think Shonda or someone on the production side of things once tweeted that the painting is a nod to Jesse Williams because he's really into shoes. I'm interested in a lot of things that I wouldn't necessarily want a giant painting of, but to each his own I guess.

Now that you mention it though, it's kind of odd that Jackson wouldn't take that with him. Hell if I were him I'd take the whole apartment back and make April find a new place.

Edited by AnythingCanBe
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Oh boy...

I like April and I think that is because I relate most to her. She is a happy combination of faith and science. I can understand all of her decisions and while I don't agree that they are the right choices, I can see myself making every single one of them in the same situation.

The way she left Jackson after Samuel was born was so soo wrong. However, in real life these things happen all the time. A child dying or any real life tragedy makes people react in strange ways and breaks up even the best of couples. I think the backlash against April is made even worse because Jackson had a near perfect response in his grief. He was kind and supportive and wanted to comfort and share pain. Her reaction was to run. It's not right but she wanted to do anything to avoid her sorrow and the questions and looks from around the hospital. I don't blame him for wanting out after that but I can also understand and sympathize with her and the need to escape.

I understand her even more with the desire to keep the pregnancy quiet. She wants to be with him but not because of a baby. She also wants to have some peace with this pregnancy. As soon as AZ found out she started pushing April to get testing done. This would snowball to everyone in that place because they have no personal boundaries. Everyone would tell April what to do and it wouldn't end with testing. As soon as a test came back with bad results, they would all tell her to abort. It has been very clear from our very first introduction to April that this would never be an option and her fears that people would push it were confirmed when Jackson brought it up at her door. She should have told Jackson as soon as AZ found out but I can see why she would not want to fend off people questioning every decision she makes about her body for 9 months.

She is also not a stupid person. She is a doctor and has a reasonable scientific mind but that doesn't mean that she can't have faith and hope. There is a place where both can exist. I don't think that she really believes that if you have enough faith in God, bad things won't happen to you. She understands the science behind the testing but she can hope that they are wrong and have faith that God will be with her either way.

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Next episode promo has me worried though? If you have three kids, will you take your casual date to home? And the said date is roaming around shirtless?

 

From what I understand, they've been seeing each other for a while (I think they said it was their third date?), plus Amelia seems to be living there again, so there must have been another time jump, however miniature. 

The reason he's naked is that she had apparently kicked him out the bed, for the reasons we're yet to see. 

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.... am I warming up to Amelia!?!? I actually felt bad when she showed up to Owen's and found him drunk. I don't care much about either of them, but I liked Owen's scene with April and I felt for Amelia at the end. I think it just means that I'm enjoying the show a lot overall and so even the characters that get on my nerves are okay with me. I also love the switch-up of interactions lately, like Amelia / Arizona at the end. 

 

 

I wish Jackson and April would fix their crap for the child's sake. And I thought they put an interesting spin on the usual pro-choice narrative. Arizona was out of line, but I think "indefensible" is a bit much. Considering that she kind of accidentally backed into telling Jackson when each thought the other was talking about something else. April behaved like a crazy person; for a Christian, telling someone to go to hell is pretty much the worst, most hateful thing you could say.

 

Even though I don't really like the Amelia character, in my opinion, she was on the money about what Arizona did being indefensible.  Yep, pretty much.  There is really nothing she can do but wait at this point.

 

April is exhausting. I know I'm probably supposed to be on her side or whatever, but I'm not. I'm on Team Let This End Already. 

 

THIS!  Yes...

 

What is a jolex?

 

Jo and Alex

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The episode was good imo.

Loved how they played out Arizona. Her intentions are good but I am glad she is feeling guilty too. I don't think it's a confidant issue or firing offense though. Was Alex considered worth firing when he blurted out to Owen that Meredith screwed up Alzheimer's trial? Was Bailey herself considered it wrong when she injected the patient with HIV injections without parents permission ? A blame for which Stephanie took fall? They have all at some point crossed that line so it's ain't big deal for me.

What Arizona did was breach someone's trust to help them and I like how Callie and Amelia explained where exactly she was wrong. Loved the Calzona bit. Even if I don't want Calzona to reunite just yet I can't deny that that scene held more chemistry than all Callie penny scenes (yay for minimal penny but still she got something better to do than Jo & Stephanie....sigh)

 

 

 

How Alex said it was douche-canoeish - but he was 100 percent in the right in letting people know. Meredith's behind totally should have been fired

Bailey should have been arrested for what she did. 

 

 

that's the thing. for me they ALL cross the line and no one ever ever gets in trouble. they get yelled at, they get a slap on the wrist then tralalala. it would be nice if someone would actually get in legit trouble

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Arizona said as a joke "Oh you can't drink, what are you pregnant." that's a sarcastic quip. April confirmed it. She didn't have to. 

Alex surmised (because he works in peds, and sees pregnant women a lot). 

 

the MOMENT April confirmed it - was the second (In my mind) she should have told Jackson. just flat out. "Okay - I wasn't sure if I was pregnant, I know we just signed the papers, I'm not using this to get back with you and i don't want anything from you because that ship is sailed - but  the test confirmed it. I do not want to go through what we went through, so i am just letting you know that plan - but I do want to take your feelings into account because it's our baby and we've got to deal with this even if he's healthy - learn how to get along.

 

There it is. 

OK....I guess I am curious here.  Jackson left her.  Shouldn't she have full autonomy over this pregnancy, baby, all choices regarding baby?  She has every legal right to terminate the pregnancy without Jackson's consent...can't she raise it without his consent?   I say she absolutely has every right to keep quiet.  It's her body, it's her baby, this has nothing to do with Jackson.  

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it would be nice if someone would actually get in legit trouble

 

Izzie was fired for making an error with a patient.

 

I don't really mind the slap on the wrist punishments. If the fact they did something wrong was acknowledged (by the person who did it) and there's some kind of probation its enough for me. Real world punishments would send half of them to jail or have them working at the coffee cart instead of being doctors so I can go with it. Things like Meredith screwing up the trial then acting like everyone else was wrong is what irritates me because zero growth comes from what happened. In this episode Arizona was wrong & it was acknowledged. I don't need to see her fired or anything.

Edited by windsprints

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So how is it most people love the fact that Arizona is basically a pariah now and that she should be punished for what she did when Maggie punched out a patient's parent and did not even get a slap on the wrist? Which is the more fireable offense?

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I don't think anyone's saying that it really should be a fireable offence, on the contrary. Speaking of which, I can only assume Bailey was under the impression that Arizona got the information about April's pregnancy as her doctor, otherwise it makes no sense even for this show's views of ethical standards. It's weird though that Arizona didn't even try to explain the situation when Bailey went on about fireable offenses and her breaking federal laws. I guess everyone knows she won't be getting fired, so why even bother. 

 

And I don't really think she's a pariah either. It's not like people are refusing to speak to her, they're just letting her know (and not unsolicitedly) that what she did was wrong. 

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OK....I guess I am curious here.  Jackson left her.  Shouldn't she have full autonomy over this pregnancy, baby, all choices regarding baby?  She has every legal right to terminate the pregnancy without Jackson's consent...can't she raise it without his consent?   I say she absolutely has every right to keep quiet.  It's her body, it's her baby, this has nothing to do with Jackson.  

She has autonomy whilst pregnant, after the baby is born they will have to navigate their (equal) parental rights. Unless she chooses not to name him on the birth certificate, in which case he'll have to prove paternity, and...oy.

 

The question of "who left who" in this relationship is rather complicated (imo, they were never 'together' again after she left in S11), but in any case, it's not a factor here.

Edited by BlindMaryIngalls
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the amount of greys characters judging Arizona for what she did when they equally did as bad makes me lol. But it's obvious they're setting Arizona up to save April's baby.

Meanwhile, Japril and Owen are insufferable.

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She has autonomy whilst pregnant, after the baby is born they will have to navigate their (equal) parental rights. Unless she chooses not to name him on the birth certificate, in which case he'll have to prove paternity, and...oy.

 

The question of "who left who" in this relationship is rather complicated (imo, they were never 'together' again after she left in S11), but in any case, it's not a factor here.

Further the question of who left who doesn't negate Jackson's right to be a father to his child once the baby is born.

 

I seriously hope nothing is wrong with the baby.  I just don't need more of that drama for Jackson and April.

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She has every legal right to terminate the pregnancy without Jackson's consent...can't she raise it without his consent?

The first part of this statement is true. The second part is much more complex. 

 

It's his kid. He can take her to court and get his parental rights enforced. Unless she ran away and hid in a non-extradition country, she can't ban him from seeing his kid unless she can prove he was a danger to the child.

 

This is an interesting story line and as a pro-choice woman, you would think I would be completely behind April. But I am not completely...

 

I think she is going to push him to do something she really isn't going to like. She just told him he doesn't count -- which is partially true. Now that she shut him out, I wouldn't be surprised if  he took her to court (no spoilers just my thoughts). He can't force her to have an abortion but he can try to enforce his paternal rights -- make sure his name is on the birth certificate. And if April doesn't try to involve him, he take the next step and sue for custody after the baby is born (if healthy). He probably wouldn't win but it would be a messy fight with both slinging all kinds of mud at each other. And Jackson has more money...

 

While I agree it's her body, I think she has to give some consideration to his thoughts -- throw him a bone if you will. How much better would Jackson have reacted if she had gone to him early and said, "Hey I am pregnant. I don't want to abort but I will do some testing so we can see what is going on and be prepared. I want you by my side for care decisions but if you decide that it's too much, I understand." Right now she is telling him that he has to accept that they may have another baby that is going to die or be disabled. Legally, he doesn't get a say, but would you really say that to someone that a few months ago, you were trying to stay married to? That you claimed to love beyond all reason? April doesn't treat him like she loved him at all.

 

I also am not mad about his jumping to conclusions about her hiding the pregnancy until it was too late to "do anything". She was in part.  He's angry because again she is making decisions for him -- decisions that are legally hers to make -- but they do impact him as well. Just like when she ran after their baby died. That was her decision to make but again he had no input and was left to pick up the pieces. He probably sees this decision the same way.

 

The mess that is their communication skills led to this impasse. There may be no point in the middle where they could meet but I would have liked for April to try first (seeing how she was in the wrong originally for hiding the pregnancy). Nothing good comes from drawing a hard line in the sand as your opening offer..

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I wanted Arizona to tell Bailey, "You can't fire me; I own the hospital. I could fire you." Whether that would be possible etc is beside the point. I thought Bailey was kind of a jerk, especially in light of the countless breaches of protocol, good manners, medical ethics and the law committed by pretty much everyone on the show at one time or other.

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I just kept thinking the one who looks really pregnant is Arizona, not Kepner.

Owen's ready to take the baby sight unseen. I so hope there's no Apwen on the horizon.

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Jackson demonstrated why April was right not to have told him yet. As soon as he found out, he started manipulating her into thinking about an abortion.  Way to justify your rights as a parent, Avery.

I think this is a bit harsh on Jackson. I didn't think he was manipulating her at all. This is a tough conversation that they need to have. There is a possibility that this second baby could have the same problem as Samuel. It's not out of line for Jackson to bring up the issue of termination in a situation where the baby would only exist to suffer and then die a few seconds after birth. The fact that April won't even consider the fact that the same fate my befall this baby is off-putting. I'm not saying she has to have an abortion, but crossing her fingers and hoping instead of doing anything to arm herself with knowledge, is disturbing. And the "my body my choice" stance she takes to end the discussion with the father of her child and alleged love of her life was as true as it was unhelpful for the situation. The vehemence of her reaction would have been more appropriate if he had made an appointment at a clinic and was trying to coax her down the hallway. Instead, he was (angrily) trying to have a discussion that they, as parents need to have.

 

They are a terrible couple. I don't want them back together under any circumstances. I don't see how they can get back together. For the rest of their lives, April telling Jackson to fuck off and slamming the door in his face as he tried to talk about the possibility of their baby dying is always going to be there. They were on a cliff and that pushed them over.

 

The hilarious part of all this is that I am hardcore pro-choice. But I guess I believe in being ethically pro-choice. Not using the my body, my choice mantra as a club to use against loved ones to protect yourself from your own foolery.

 

All that being said, Jackson definitely shouldn't have been so accusatory. Even if he thought she was just playing for time to avoid that particular conversation, his accusations were never going to have a good result.

 

Ugh, I hope we get another time jump episode that will spare us months of these two staring daggers at each other over her baby bump.

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Shouldn't she have full autonomy over this pregnancy, baby, all choices regarding baby?  She has every legal right to terminate the pregnancy without Jackson's consent...can't she raise it without his consent?

 

What she can do (terminate) and what she should do, as his recently former wife who slept with him sans birth control are two things for me.  He is going to bear emotional, financial, and other responsibilities for this child.  She's right when she said it's not his until it's born, but unless he disclaims parental rights or is found unfit, he will be making decisions on behalf of this child until its adulthood.  That will include a right to participate in medical decisions, and if they cannot agree, he can probably force appointment of a guardian ad litem, whose job it will be to inform a judge what is best for the child.  Starting off on this foot has good and bad implications for April, good for her for calling an end to the BS with him (and by that I mean the incredibly unproductive cycle they have been in since she returned from her war zone walkabout, which cycle I hold them equally responsible for), but bad tone to set for any co-parenting.  She drew this line, so now it's going to be on her to find a new tact, which she has demonstrated a stunning inability to accomplish since her return.

 

They both have legitimate, marriage ending gripes.  But a baby generally means they are attached forever, and I'm a little sad that such is the case for these characters.

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I just can't like Riggs. He keeps sticking his nose into places where he shoudn't (telling Penny to do the procedure instead of calling her attending) and telling Owen he's sick is way out of line. As I understood it, Owen's sister got on an evac place that ended up missing. They both looked for her but eventually Owen gave up and decided she was lost and blames Riggs. Riggs never stopped looking for her. From where I sit the person who finally accepted that she was lost is the healthy reaction, not the one Riggs had. And I know that medical personnel made sick jokes about patients to ease the tension, Riggs' comments such as "she's circling the drain" and deliberately encouraging hope in hopeless cases moves beyond black humour into disrespect.

 

I'm a very lapsed religious person, but I felt I understood what she was saying there.  She followed through with all the testing and all the science the last time, and her baby ended up dead and along the way she made a decision she wasn't really comfortable with by doing the induced termination.  I think she struggles between what she knows as a doctor and what she feels with her faith. 

 

And this time, she's going to rely on her faith to guide her through the process.  I don't think she expects a miracle. I don't think she'll avoid all pregnancy protocol, but she's just not going to go down the same path she did last time.  That's what faith is.  It doesn't mean she gets her wildest dreams, she knows this may end horribly. It just means she's going to let this one thing be, however it goes, it will go.

 

Whatever one personally thinks of religion, whether you believe or not or how much you believe, the research in the effects of belonging to a religious group are clear: people who belong to a church/synagogue/mosque etc. are generally happier, less depressed and more connected to others.

This pregnancy is going to be very difficult for April. Not only is she a single parent now, she's got the fear of having a sick baby again. If relying on her religion to support her is going to make it easier for her, that's better for her and for the baby. Of course she'll do all the things that science has said is important to have a healthy baby, she's just going to add her faith in God as well.

 

I assumed she was calling the sitter to stay overnight and then drop the kids off at school / daycare in the morning, not necessarily stay an extra 17 hours. Just little justifications to make it all make more sense in my head, lol.

What kind of a sitter can put her life on hold to stay overnight and then drop the kids off at daycare the next day?  Sitters like that don't exist unless they are relatives.

 

At this point, Meredith's refusal to have a live-in nanny is not modesty but hurtful to her children.  They lost their father, they spent a year uprooted before retuning to their home only to leave that to move into Meredith's old house, and then have Alex, Jo and Amelia move out.  Those kids needs stability very badly, not daycare and rotating sitters and never being sure when their mother, the one stable person in their lives, will be around.

 

It's certainly not that Meredith can't afford it. She's surgeon, the highest paid medical professional, she just sold her old house and Derek was negligent if he didn't have substantial life insurance with two kids.  And she's certainly got the bedroom in the house (if it's a problem, the two youngest can share a room).  So please, Meredith, for my peace of mind around your kids, get a live-in nanny.

 

 

the MOMENT April confirmed it - was the second (In my mind) she should have told Jackson. just flat out. "Okay - I wasn't sure if I was pregnant, I know we just signed the papers, I'm not using this to get back with you and i don't want anything from you because that ship is sailed - but  the test confirmed it. I do not want to go through what we went through, so i am just letting you know that plan - but I do want to take your feelings into account because it's our baby and we've got to deal with this even if he's healthy - learn how to get along.

 

There it is.

Ordinarily I would agree. The problem is Jackson. If he were going to be supportive and help her through this pregnancy then I would be all for her telling him as soon as possible. But we've already seen that he's going to be a negative, not a positive. He's already told her he wants nothing to do with her following the divorce and the stress of fighting him about the baby is going to be bad for her health and for the baby's too.

It's not like Jackson isn't going to find out in a couple of months anyway. A pregnancy is not something someone as petite as April can hide.

When that happens, is he going to force her to get tested so he will know ahead of time what to expect? That will probably be easier for him but it could be much, much harder on April. And as pro joint parenting as I am, right now it's April that is doing all the nurturing and growing so I think what she wants gets priority. And if she thinks that telling Jackson is going to be harder on her and hence on the baby, what's best for the baby would be not to tell Jackson until she has to. Of course, Jackson could not be an ass and start supporting the woman who is growing his baby but that doesn't seem likely at this point. It's All About Him.

Edited by statsgirl
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Re: Bailey and Arizona - relating to doctor-patient confidentiality.

The professional duty of confidentiality covers not only what patients may reveal to doctors, but also what doctors may independently conclude or form an opinion about, based on their examination or assessment of patients. Confidentiality covers all medical records (including x-rays, lab-reports, etc.) as well as communications between patient and doctor, and it generally includes communications between the patient and other professional staff working with the doctor.

The duty of confidentiality continues even after patients stop seeing or being treated by their doctors. Once doctors are under a duty of confidentiality, they cannot divulge any medical information about their patients to third parties withour consent. (Source: http://healthcare.uslegal.com/doctor-patient-confidentiality).

Arizona was April's doctor for the 1st pregnancy so legally speaking once it's established that she is or was her doctor, any medical information about April that Arizona learns is confidential, no matter how she got the information or if she was still treating April. So Bailey was right - it is a fireable offense, at least in the real world. On Grey's, it's just another Thursday. :)

Edited by Gtr187
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I enjoyed this episode, I've been enjoying season 12 in general, I think that killing off Derek was a good thing because it allowed some new dynamics to develop, which is pretty impressive in a show that is 12 seasons old.

As for this episode specifically.

This show understands emergency medicine and surgery reasonably well, sure things are fudged on occasion and only the very short term consequences and outcomes of procedures are discussed, a case in point being the CF patient n this episode, where it was strongly suggested that the patient would live a long and healthy life after her transplant. Lung transplants in CF patients are a palliative treatment, not a curative one, they give the patient between five and ten years of quality life before the transplanted lungs begin to fail and the patient will either be relisted for transplant of enter end of life care, depending on circumstances. But things like that are not enough to draw me out of the episode.

This show's understanding of genetics is a hot mess. The chances of Jackson and April's baby having OI are no higher than you, I, or any other person in the general population. This is because the genetic deformity that caused the type of OI Samuel had always occurs de novo, i.e. It is a new mutation specific to either the single sperm or single egg that unfortunately was the one that resulted in Samuel's conception. Samuel's OI is inherited via a dominant gene, this means it is never inherited from a parent as that would require the parent to express the disorder which is impossible as children with this form of OI do not survive infancy. This is really taking me out of the story, which I hate anyway. Jackson, April and Arizona are wrong, Arizona should never, ever have told Jackson, April absolutely should have told Jackson weeks ago and Jackson is least wrong but needs to show at least some understanding of April's viewpoint.

Arizona is seriously expecting April to talk to her? If I were April I would never speak to Arizona again. Seriously, what she did was such a fundamental breach of trust, it was unforgivable.

Shut up Hunt, you are making me like Amelia (who for the record I like on Private Practice but can't stand her on Grey's for the most part).

It is raining anvils re. Megan.

Neither of the patient stories really interested my, we didn't get to spend enough time with the patients to develop any emotional connection.

Mere's new love interest could be interesting.

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Re: Bailey and Arizona - relating to doctor-patient confidentiality.

The professional duty of confidentiality covers not only what patients may reveal to doctors, but also what doctors may independently conclude or form an opinion about, based on their examination or assessment of patients. Confidentiality covers all medical records (including x-rays, lab-reports, etc.) as well as communications between patient and doctor, and it generally includes communications between the patient and other professional staff working with the doctor.

The duty of confidentiality continues even after patients stop seeing or being treated by their doctors. Once doctors are under a duty of confidentiality, they cannot divulge any medical information about their patients to third parties without consent. (Source: http://healthcare.uslegal.com/doctor-patient-confidentiality).

Arizona was April's doctor for the 1st pregnancy so legally speaking once it's established that she is or was her doctor, any medical information about April that Arizona learns is confidential, no matter how she got the information or if she was still treating April. So Bailey was right - it is a fireable offense, at least in the real world. On Grey's, it's just another Thursday. :)

Was she?  Stephanie asked Arizona about the sonogram and then consulted Herman.  Herman told Arizona she could not be on the case or work with her on the case because she was too invested.  I know Jackson said "let's talk to Robbins", but April said no and it didn't happen.  Guess I could've missed something.  Was Arizona ever identified or listed as April's doctor during either pregnancy?  Is it based on the fact that Stephanie asked Robbins and it's considered a consult? I honestly can't recall details the way I used to and may be mis-rembering, but for some reason I thought Herman and Stephanie were Aprils doctors. 

 

Not saying your wrong, just trying to understand and am not sure when a person becomes a patient.  Thinking of consults done over the phone - e.g. Callie calling the doctors over-seas regarding the artificial hip she implanted that went wrong.  Would the doctors she consulted be liable?  Do the conversations the doctors have with each other when they say I have a patient that a,b,c, count or when they share O.R. stories?  E.G. Meredith talking to Thorpe?  How far does it go?  This sounds like anyone and everyone could be on point for lawsuit or legal action should a patient wish to pursue a civil suit or the Feds wish to pursue a federal case.  Tangled, tangled web isn't it?  I do understand civil suits are quite common - not just fed cases.  Is that correct?

 

Also wondering as many many others are - given the actions of Meredith, Bailey, Maggie, Penny, etc. - why is Arizona the one called out?  Drama?  Thrills? Plot point?  It seems all have broken the law.  Perhaps that's why Bailey didn't pursue it.

 

Oddly, Herman's situation was black and white - blatantly so.  Arizona could have experienced losing a license, jail time, financial penalties, job loss etc. -- Yes?  Plus, I believe a case could made for Amelia's culpability as well.  Is that right?

Edited by TheresaW1934
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Neither of the patient stories really interested my, we didn't get to spend enough time with the patients to develop any emotional connection.

That's how I feel.  No patient connection this week or last makes it less interesting.  Failure for the doctors to 'invest' or care about the patient is distracting and distances me.  I can get relationship drama anywhere.  I watch Grey's to draw me in through patient care and relationship.  For me, it's better that way. 

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Was she? Stephanie asked Arizona about the sonogram and then consulted Herman. Herman told Arizona she could not be on the case or work with her on the case because she was too invested. I know Jackson said "let's talk to Robbins", but April said no and it didn't happen. Guess I could've missed something. Was Arizona ever identified or listed as April's doctor during either pregnancy? Is it based on the fact that Stephanie asked Robbins and it's considered a consult? I honestly can't recall details the way I used to and may be mis-rembering, but for some reason I thought Herman and Stephanie were Aprils doctors.

Not saying your wrong, just trying to understand and am not sure when a person becomes a patient. Thinking of consults done over the phone - e.g. Callie calling the doctors over-seas regarding the artificial hip she implanted that went wrong. Would the doctors she consulted be liable? Do the conversations the doctors have with each other when they say I have a patient that a,b,c, count or when they share O.R. stories? E.G. Meredith talking to Thorpe? How far does it go? This sounds like anyone and everyone could be on point for lawsuit or legal action should a patient wish to pursue a civil suit or the Feds wish to pursue a federal case. Tangled, tangled web isn't it? I do understand civil suits are quite common - not just fed cases. Is that correct?

Also wondering as many many others are - given the actions of Meredith, Bailey, Maggie, Penny, etc. - why is Arizona the one called out? Drama? Thrills? Plot point? It seems all have broken the law. Perhaps that's why Bailey didn't pursue it.

Oddly, Herman's situation was black and white - blatantly so. Arizona could have experienced losing a license, jail time, financial penalties, job loss etc. -- Yes? Plus, I believe a case could made for Amelia's culpability as well. Is that right?

There's a couple of ways you could look at it - Stephanie did consult Robbins on the sonogram which would mean in theory that consult was logged in April's medical records, which would make Arizona indirectly a doctor of April and confidentiality would then apply to any future medical information Robbins learned about April. Or: Doctor patient confidentiality also applies to medically relevant communications between a doctor and a potential patient - the conversations April and Arizona had ("come in and get tests." "No!") would pretty clearly make April a potential patient.

Re: Callie, Meredith/Thorpe talking, etc - as long as they don't mention the patient's name or identifying info, they can discuss details like surgical technique without breaking privilege legally. Arizona could have said to Jackson - I have a pregnant patient (or potential patient if we say Arizona wasn't April's Doctor) and it'd be legal as long as she didn't say who it was. Callie's overseas doctors were doing an experimental trial - in a trial, the patients usually give consent for their results to be shared (without identifying info) before entering the trial so those doctors are in the clear as long as they didn't say names with results. If names are shared during storytelling, then yes they could be sued if the patient found out.

Yeah, IRL what Arizona did to Herman by stealing her files was about 10 different HIPAA violations and would have meant firing, loss of her license, and probably fines and jail time. Though in that case, it's not clear if Hermann ever told anyone (she did have a lot invested in Robbins as a protege) and the only other person who knew was Amelia who would be in the same kinds of trouble if anyone ever found out because she knew the records were not legally obtained and didn't report it. Then again - This is Grey's, the world of cutting LVAD wires, interns doing surgery on each other without getting fired, Bailey blatantly disregarding a parent's wishes re: Bubble Boy, etc.

Edited by Gtr187

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I liked the confrontation we had between Riggs and Hunt,well-acted, much needed self-reflexion for Owen and Nathan was right as we could see it affected Owen so much that after realising the truth in Nathan´s words, it made him get drunk not to feel the truth.

I hope Owen will back off from now on, it was worth seeing Nathan not having it from Owen anymore, having the guts to stand up to this emotional and professional bullying. And Nathan did it all on his own,with no one to have his back. Admirable.   

 

It was quite an interesting case and Tess was probably an allusion to Megan as with all the hope there she might wake up one day and also Megan might come back one day. Nathan still has hope it seems to me.

 

I do not like Thorpe with Meredith at all.

Edited by NathanRiggsfan

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