S03.E09: XXVII

[Triskan]

So... that happened...

[mnelson54321]

Well then....

[FlowerofCarnage]

I wonder if Blackbeard is either team up with Flint to wreck havoc on the British or blame him for what happened to Vanessa and seek vengeance?

I love how they're building the relationship between Silver and Madi.

[Neurochick]

I knew it was going to happen.  

 

But I liked Vane's last words, "get on with it motherfucker."

 

And Eleanor, what a cold person (didn't want to call her the b word).  But when I watched again, I noticed how everybody turned and looked at her.  And they TOTALLY hate her on FB now.  

 

And they're going to blame Woodes Rogers for it when he had nothing to do with what happened.  OMG.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Neurochick

[Garnett7]

I wonder if Eleanor hasn't screwed herself with this. Because when Rogers wakes up and finds out all that she has done using his name, he just might throw her to the wolves.

 

The irony is that Rogers told Flint that Flint would have to spin some stories to make Rogers the "villain". Nope, Flint didn't have to. Eleanor has made him the villain all by herself. The streets will turn on Rogers now over Vane. Blackbeard will join the fight, bringing his pirate fleet with him. And Eleanor sent pretty much all their fighting force after Flint, leaving Nassau vulnerable next week to an uprising or a return of Blackbeard or even a Spanish attack.

 

I'm curious about one thing, even re-watching I didn't know for sure -- is Billy still in Nassau? Or did he and Gunn leave right after the hanging and head back to Maroon Island?

 

I'm really loving Madi. While I want someone to off Eleanor, I kinda hope she gets to do it. Max better not touch a hair on Idelle's awesome head. I love Idelle. All that was lacking in the Flint/Silver talk was for Flint to end with "Come to the Dark Side, we have cookies".

[Neurochick]

I'm wondering about Eleanor.  She got revenge on Vane, but she had to have known that the street wouldn't take kindly to it; plus she's put it all on Woodes Rogers.  It makes me wonder if she got rid of her ex and current boyfriend for whatever reason.

[CatMack]

Last episode Rogers' specifically told Eleanor he expected they were about to be faced with making decisions where there were no good outcomes, and that's pretty much what happened.  Once Billy started sewing dissent, there was really no solution to the Vane problem that wouldn't end with some amount of anger and upheaval on the street (aside from just letting him go, which wasn't really an option).  That doesn't mean I think Eleanor picked the best option, but I don't think she really had any good options either.  I know the popular theory all season has been that Eleanor is playing Rogers, but she was alone with him and he was unconscious and she told him she cared what he thought of her and she was trying to protect him.  Unless you think she thought he was faking being delirious from fever, she had no reason to say those things when they were alone except if she was sincere.  I think in her view, getting it over with quickly and in a way where she can take the fall if he chooses to disavow her was the lesser of all evils.  Certainly I think there was personal revenge mixed in there too, because motivations are often complicated, but I think she's aware of the potential consequences of taking this route.

 

I'm honestly still a little bit in shock that they actually went through with it.  I have pretty much hated Vane since season 1.  While I understand there are objectively "worse" things done, in real life and on this show, the "set a woman up to be beaten and gangraped as punishment" thing was just a hard limit for me.  I have a visceral reaction to rape plots for very personal reasons and from that point on there was pretty much nothing they could do, no amount of character development or cute moments with Jack that would make me like him.  So I'm OK with Vane being gone from my screen.  I just didn't think it would happen until the end of the show.  I thought it made sense for him to die this season, to give the pirates a real unequivocal loss going into what's likely to be a more directly confrontational season 4.  But he was such a fan favorite I just couldn't quite let myself believe it was gonna happen even when it made logical sense to me.  But they actually did it.

 

And I will say this - I may not have liked the Batman Voice, but I do think Zach McGowan played the hell out of Vane, especially this season when he was given a much broader range of emotions and relationships to portray.  If I could remove season 1 Vane from my brain, I might have actually liked him.  McGowan seemed to always try to give him as much nuance as possible, even though he wasn't always a particularly nuanced character.  So while I'm not sad to lose Vane from my screen, I am sad to lose McGowan from the show.  I wish him all the luck going forward with his career.  

Edited March 20, 2016 by CatMack

[kdm07]

CatMack I thought I was the only one who never warmed to Vane so watching him die was actually a happy moment for me *shrug* I will say I was really surprised that they went through with it and I expect Eleanor to be next because she'll probably fall on this particular sword herself to stop Rodgers from being caught in the crossfire. Too bad, because for all her faults I still find Eleanor to be an intriguing character.

[WatchrTina]

Well, I've been screaming at my TV for the past two hours (I missed last week's ep and got caught up tonight.)

 

That was a really good episode but DAMN I'm gonna miss Vane.  He was a BAMF. 

 

Fuck you Eleanor Guthrie.  I hope Blackbeard kills you personally.

 

And on a shallow note, the trio of agitators in Nassau -- Billy, Ben Gunn, and the new guy -- made for some major league eye candy. 

[SimoneS]

So Vane is done. I never liked him, but it was crushing to see him die. I admire Eleanor. I think that she made the hard and only choice trying and hanging him so quickly. I thought she was playing Rogers, I was wrong. Teach will be furious. I think that he will come to Flint's aid just as he about to be defeated.

 

I adore Madi now. I was glad that Mr. Scott told her that he only has one daughter. I like the bond developing between her and Silver. She might yet save him from the dark side that Flint lives on. That conversation with James was scary. I think that he was warning Silver

 

I like Max, but if she hurts a hair on the head of sweet Idelle, I am through with her.

 

This show does have seriously hot men. 

Edited March 20, 2016 by SimoneS

[Morrigan2575]

Die Eleanor Die!

I'm pissed that Vane is dead but, I'm glad he went out on his own terms. In the end Vane won because Eleanor is going to lose Nassau.

However, she still needs to die and sadly I doubt I'll get it this season. Looking forward to Blackbeard raining all kinds of hell down on Nassau. However, I need Flint to win this war, I need him to be the one to take out Hornigold and Woods Rogers

[Neurochick]

I laughed at Vane's last words, " let's get on with it, motherfucker.". I think those were also Stringer Bell's last words in "The Wire."

BTW, I always loathed Vane too. He reminded me too much of men who were on the covers of Barbara Cartland's books. Never liked his hair extensions either.

Loved Madi and Silver. He sought her out and she hugged him, so sweet.

But, Mr. Scott :-(

Edited March 20, 2016 by Neurochick

[Fable]

I don't know how I feel about Vane dying.  I didn't hate or love him, but I guess he was like that pesky relative that was always around at family dinners, but once he is gone, things just don’t feel right.

[peacefrog]

I'm so glad Vane is gone. His character was slightly more tolerable this season but I just did not find him interesting enough.

I thought he wasn't going to make it to season 4 because he was the only one doing promo appearances at the start of the season. Everyone else was filming next season.

Edited March 20, 2016 by peacefrog

[ulkis]

I find Silver and Flint's self-important emo blathering about The Daaaaaaarkness really friggin' cheesy. And I guess Silver not telling Flint about the man last week was supposed to be a sign of his becoming independent of Flint or something but I didn't see why Silver would go out of his way to tell Flint, especially once the matter was resolved. It wasn't really something Flint had to know once it was done.

 

I don't know how I feel about Vane dying.  I didn't hate or love him, but I guess he was like that pesky relative that was always around at family dinners, but once he is gone, things just don’t feel right.

 

Good analogy, that's how I feel about it. He was a good shit-stirrer. But I think it was a better choice, over all; it would have been too much of a repeat of last season's rescue of Flint. I thought the whole sequence was well-done. Except I don't know how I felt about "get on with it, motherfucker." Maybe "you fucking shit" or something. "m-effer" took me out of the moment a bit.

 

And nice cinematography earlier in the episode with Vane sitting hunched in the cell in the sunlight.

 

I hope Max tips her dressmaker extra, all her dresses are fantastic lately.

 

Good to see Blackbeard back; would have been a lame exit otherwise.

I adore Madi now. I was glad that Mr. Scott told her that he only has one daughter.

 

Yeah, me too. It was kind of her to be generous about his relationship with Eleanor as well. 

 

That reminds me, the way Billy speaks of his parents, I feel bad for him because you can tell he respect his father; it's too bad that Billy made the choice not to face him because he sounds like he would have forgiven Billy for murdering that man who press ganged him; now though after Billy has been a pirate for a while it's more of a toss-up.

[WatchrTina]

I liked Vane.  I had negative reaction to him in the very first episode when he punched Eleanor in the face (after she slapped him) but since then I've grown to like him more and more and like her less and less.  If you have access to STARZPlay the behind-the-scenes video for this episode  includes a nice tribute to Zach McGowan.

 

For me the big unanswered question from this episode is:  what's going to happen when Flint tells Jack & Anne that he has plans to use "their" treasure chest to finance "his" war.  I think the pirate code would say it belongs to Flint & Co. since they liberated it from English but Jack sure seems to think it belongs to him & Anne.  There is conflict on that topic in their future.

 

Oh, and they still haven't answered my question from several episodes ago, namely where the hell is the Man O' War that Flint captured?

 

ETA:  My main complaint about this episode (and the last one) is that I think we are supposed to believe that:

• Eleanor really does love Rogers now and
• Eleanor really was upset about Vane killing her father.

 

I don't know if it is the writing or the acting but I don't think either of those points have been "earned" by the show.  I agree with Vane that Eleanor has no right to be so upset about the death of her father.  He was an asshole and she knew it.  She HATED her father -- or at least that's what I recall from the past two seasons.  And as for her bloodless declaration last episode to Rogers of "I love you now" -- yeah I didn't buy that either.  This show really struggles when depicting emotional connections.  I never bought the Anne/Max "romance" either.  Anne kissing Jack in the overturned carriage in the last episode was a nice moment though.  And Madi turning to Silver and weeping for her father was nice too.

Edited March 20, 2016 by WatchrTina

[ulkis]

And on a shallow note, the trio of agitators in Nassau -- Billy, Ben Gunn, and the new guy -- made for some major league eye candy. 

 

Yes. hee.

 

while I don't necessarily think Vane would have done the same to Eleanor he probably would have done the same thing to anyone else. I guess she seemed heartless watching Vane but I don't see how else she could have reacted without being looked on with even more suspicion by the governor's people and/or losing the respect of the people in the street.

 

I know the popular theory all season has been that Eleanor is playing Rogers, but she was alone with him and he was unconscious and she told him she cared what he thought of her and she was trying to protect him.  Unless you think she thought he was faking being delirious from fever, she had no reason to say those things when they were alone except if she was sincere. 

 

Plus imo she seemed a bit genuinely discomfited when she said he mistook her for his wife.

Edited March 20, 2016 by ulkis

[ganesh]

But I liked Vane's last words, "get on with it motherfucker."

 

Would we all able to call it like that.

 

I wonder if Eleanor hasn't screwed herself with this.

 

This was ridiculously short-sighted. "Oh we had a trial at night, it's all good." Not only does she have to deal with the people, but when the Gov wakes, I don't think he's going to really approve of what happened.

 

I liked the ship tactics of basically skidding to the side and "come at me bro."

 

I also liked Jack going all in, "I'm the only Vane you've got." And actually, Jack could be more Vane than Vane."

 

I think those were also Stringer Bell's last words in "The Wire."

 

Oh, indeed.

[WatchrTina]

Nice interview with Zach McGowan about this episode and Vane's overall story arc.

 

http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/03/20/black-sails-zach-mcgowan-on-the-pivotal-events-following-vanes-capture

 

My favorite quote from Zach:

 

 

I always knew he was going to die. My only hope was that he was going to die as the person I wanted him to be and not the person that he was introduced as. I thought for sure he was going to die at the end of Season 1 or maybe the end of Season 2 or something like that. So I feel like I ended up getting a little more out of it than I ever expected. Very similar to how Charles I think got more out of life than he ever expected.

Edited March 20, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Neurochick]

I liked Flint and Silver's conversation about darkness. Flint can see Silver is becoming a different person.

[Ravenya003]

Okay, I'm typing this before reading anyone else's comments, so forgive me if I repeat anything obvious.

 

Whew! This show is officially the most underrated show out there. I can't believe places like The AV Club aren't covering it! 

 

I had a feeling Vane wasn't long for this world, and yet the ending they gave him was perfect. People would have expected the character to go out in a blaze of glory in the midst of battle - and HE DID. Talk about facing death on YOUR terms. 

 

The funny thing is, he's never been one of my favourite characters, yet as soon as I knew what was going to happen, I realized I was gonna miss him. Also, the moment he was gone, I said to myself: "Well, this brings Blackbeard back into play!" 

 

It would seem Eleanor is now fully on Team England, which is a little disappointing since I liked the idea she was secretly playing Woodes, but that shot near the end with Flint awaiting the fleet and Eleanor watching it leave: beautiful. In a way these two characters are the axis (plural?) around which everything in this story revolves. They started this business together, and now they're seeing it through to the end on very different sides. 

 

My one niggle continues to be the sheer amount of eloquent speechifying that goes on. That was a great scene from Eleanor in which she silently beats up Vane and then lets loose with a devastated scream - immediately ruined by a poetic speech about how much of a monster Vane is. There was no need for that, and you could tell the actress wasn't feeling it. 

 

And farewell to Mr Scott as well. I'm disappointed he never got a final scene with Eleanor considering their bond with each other, but it gives Madi the room to step up into his place.

 

Ben Gunn is so pretty, but it's time to start giving him some characterization instead of using him as the guy Billy spouts exposition to. 

 

And as for her bloodless declaration last episode to Rogers of "I love you now" -- yeah I didn't buy that either.

 

 

I kind of think that's the point though. Their love scene wasn't a passionate bodice-ripper affair, it was staged and shot very slowly and carefully - almost to the point of awkwardness. I kind of think that Eleanor has chosen England with her head and she's trying to convince the rest of herself that this is who she is - but she still has the heart of a pirate. 

 

Nice to see the priest again (even if he's a hypocrite - remember the last time we saw this guy it was after Miranda screwed him on her veranda). 

[WatchrTina]

That was a great scene from Eleanor in which she silently beats up Vane and then lets loose with a devastated scream - immediately ruined by a poetic speech about how much of a monster Vane is. There was no need for that, and you could tell the actress wasn't feeling it.

I totally agree. I was eye-rolling all through her whole speech with her accusing him of having no feelings and of being ruthless and heartless. Three words Eleanor: Pot. Kettle. Black.

So I was checking out Zach McGowan's twitter account to see if he'd tweeted anything about tonight's episode and I accidentally clicked on his website. He has two reels there from seasons 1 and 2 highlighting his performances. It was interesting to me see how his characterization of Vane has changed over time.

http://zachmcgowan.com

Edited March 22, 2016 by WatchrTina

[nodorothyparker]

I'm struggling to process all my thoughts on this. Knowing how the historical Charles Vane died I always knew this was coming. I think I assumed though that it would be sometime far in the future and that he'd be making more thrillingly improbable escapes like the Charles Town episode until then.

I'm impressed that the show made what was supposed to be a humiliating public death one that managed to be mostly on his terms, that he was able to make it mean something and then still freaking walked off the wagon into the void. At the same time, I also quite liked the reverend's speech to Vane "because of you" all these terrible things happened and so many people suffered just to remind us that Vane was in no way an innocent in his fate no matter how we might feel about Eleanor's chicanery in making it happen.

Because as conflicted as my feelings have always been about Vane, I just can't with Eleanor any more. I'm having a hard time believing all the English would go along with this in land speed time with no more than her word that this is what the governor wanted when she was a condemned prisoner herself only a half dozen episodes ago. She better hope the English win decisively because there's absolutely nothing or no one left for her in Nassau now but even if they do Woodes may really not appreciate that she's done this in his name.

It also doesn't help that she's reading like the person who's fucking over everyone for the one person she's fucking.

Edited March 20, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[ganesh]

Whoops.

Edited March 20, 2016 by ganesh

[WatchrTina]

Here's another good interview with Zach about tonight's episode.

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/03/19/black-sails-death-zach-mcgowan-interview?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter

[ulkis]

edit

Edited March 20, 2016 by ulkis

[WatchrTina]

I thought [Vane] wasn't going to make it to season 4 because he was the only one doing promo appearances at the start of the season. Everyone else was filming next season.

Oooh aren't you the clever one peacefrog. I'm glad I didn't notice that because I hate being spoiled and tonight's turn of events came as a complete shock. But you are right, it makes perfect sense that they would use him for promos since he was available AND because they wanted to maximize his association with the show and the fans' feelings about him so that this episode's turn of events would have maximum shock value. (Mission fucking accomplished show-runners.)

So I woke up thinking about this show (as you do) and I have to give props to the show-runners about one thing. I began to nit-pick in my mind Billy's ability to read Vane's face as he stood on the scaffold. After all, Billy was never a member of Vane's crew. I can imagine Jack being able to read the face of his captain and friend but Billy? I began to ask myself if these two had ever even spoken to one another before. Then I recalled the fight on the Man 'O War at the end of last season. That's where they met. Then I recollected a scene in that episode where Vane talks to Billy and tells him that he knows who he is and that even all the way back to season 1 episode 1 (when Vane was trying to get Flint's crew to vote him out as captain) Vane had his eye on Billy and was hoping to make him a member of his crew. So okay, I can now fan-wank that the two of them formed a bond of sorts thanks to that conversation and Vane's bad-ass rescue of Flint later in the episode. I can even pretend that during the months that occurred off-camera between season 2 and season 3 Billy and Vane had enough contact with one another for it to be credible for Billy to look at Vane on the scaffold and correctly interpret his wishes, communicated only via a glare and a slight head-shake.

Edited March 22, 2016 by WatchrTina

[CatMack]

This was ridiculously short-sighted. "Oh we had a trial at night, it's all good." Not only does she have to deal with the people, but when the Gov wakes, I don't think he's going to really approve of what happened.

 

I'm not sure it was short-sighted though, because I'm not so sure she's unaware of what she set in motion.  The episode description said something along the lines of Eleanor risks everything to save Woodes Rogers.  In the episode itself she told him that she was doing the only thing she could think of to protect him.  Those are odd word choices if we're supposed to believe she just wanted Charles dead as quickly as possible for personal revenge, but make more sense if Eleanor is playing a long game, one she knows might end very badly for her.  

 

Let's look at her options.  She knew someone was behind the gathering crowd of rabblers.  She knew it wasn't a coincidence, so soon after the plan to rescue Jack and take the treasure.  It's a short moment, just a quick comment, when she realizes it, but I think that's very important to consider when thinking about her motivation.  Max's idea of taking the time to have the trial on the island and appease them?  It wasn't going to work.  There was never going to be appeasement because someone was deliberately stirring negative feelings about Charles Vane facing judgement, and they were going to keep doing that no matter what, no matter how they tried to soothe the street.  Drawing it out would only give the dissenters more time to organize against them.  Plus drawing it out on the island would have just left time for escape or rescue.  But Max was right that taking him to the ship to go to England knowing they would face resistance would have been disastrous.  At best you'd have dead Nassau residents from the skirmish, at worst a riot could have broken out.  And it still wouldn't solve the problem that Billy created, that everything was going to be blamed on the tyrant Eleanor Guthrie.  

 

Seriously, Billy was so goddamn smart in this episode, I'm gonna need him to be in charge of things more often because he really shines when he gets to do more than glare at Flint.

 

But anyway, it's right after Max warns Eleanor against doing anything to Vane that could be blamed on her that she goes to Woodes, tells him she warned him getting close to her would be dangerous (hearkening back to their conversation in episode 3 or 4, can't remember which, where she said having her by his side might undermine his position because of her past and enemies) and that what she's about to do is all she can think of to protect him.  It's only then that she starts in on the "oh yes, the governor said to do this" stuff.  And when Vane is dead, when she's meeting with Woodes' advisors at the end, she's not trying to act with the authority of the governor anymore.  She speaks for herself - "I know this enemy, I know how he thinks".  It's only with Vane's trial that she play acts at having the authority of the governor behind her, and Max clearly sees through it, as do a lot of other people probably, and I think that's the point.

 

I think Eleanor is trying to use Billy's plan against him in the only way she can think of - make herself a target.  Give the governor a scapegoat.  All he has to do when he wakes up is say he never told her to do anything and it becomes entirely her fault, and he won't have to bear the consequences of picking one of the bad outcomes they were facing.  He can imprison her, execute her, do something to disavow her and if he does it publically it might undermine some of the sentiment against him on the street currently.

 

Am I right in this interpretation of her actions?  Don't know.  Does she have a concrete plan on how to deal with what she set in motion in Nassau?  Don't know  How will Woodes Rogers feel about what happened when he wakes up?  Don't know.  Will he throw her to the wolves, or let her fall on her own sword, depending on how you interpret it?  Don't know.  Would publicly punishing her do a damn thing to weaken the resistance at this point?  Don't know.  

 

I just don't think her motivations are as simple as only wanting revenge, and I don't think you claw your way into power and hold it as long as Eleanor did if she's too stupid to understand the potential consequences of what she did.  

 

All I know is I've spent most of my fangirl life being fed morally ambiguous white male after morally ambiguous white male with the expectation that I will find them interesting just by virtue of them being a lead character.  Hell that describes 90% of the Black Sails cast.  I am thrilled to have a female character who is just as ambiguous, just as fucked up (and queer as a bonus!).  It's not a type of character we get to see often, though that's starting to change.  I adore Eleanor because she's such a messy, frustrating character, and I think she fits right in with all the men on this show and all the horrible shit they've done while proclaiming themselves fighting for freedom.  

[Neurochick]

One of the things I like about this board is that it's not a 100% "I hate Eleanor" fest.  I laughed at the posts on that article about Zach, all those people saying they'll never watch the show again.  Vane was NEVER the show.  The show is a prequel of Treasure Island, the show runners have said that from the beginning.  

 

I sense that a lot of the Vane love came during last season, when Flint's sexuality was revealed.  I sense that some men and some women might have thought twice about loving him as a character; the men because, well they don't want to appear "gay" for liking a gay (or bisexual) male character, and the women lost their romantic hero and put that all on Vane.  So now the men have lost their "manly" character and the women have lost their "romantic" hero.  

 

As for Eleanor, I don't really like her, but I get her.  I mean she's in the 18th century, a time where women were considered property.  Of course she was going to take Woodes Rogers' offer, she certainly wasn't going to let herself be a scapegoat for piracy when others had done worse than she.  

 

My favorite scene in the episode was between Madi and Silver.  I liked how he sought her out and when she was speaking to him, realized that he, who always has something to say, couldn't think of anything to say to her.  But Madi didn't want words from Silver, she just wanted him there.  She embraced him first and Silver was I think surprised, I mean how many women have been interested in him since he lost his leg?  But then he slowly embraced he as well, great scene.  

 

BTW, I knew somewhat that Vane would die in this episode, because someone on FB linked to a French promo for episode 309, which showed completely different scenes than what the US promos showed.  

Edited March 20, 2016 by Neurochick

[ulkis]

I can even pretend that during the months that occurred off-camera between season 2 and season 3 Billy and Vane had enough contact with one another for it to be credible for Billy to look at Vane on the scaffold and correctly interpret his wishes, communicated only via a glare and a slight head-shake.

 

I don't think you even have to go that far. Billy showing up, what else would he show up for besides rescuing Vane? And Billy would figure, that Vane would figure out, what they were doing there.

Edited March 20, 2016 by ulkis

[ulkis]

My favorite scene in the episode was between Madi and Silver.  I liked how he sought her out and when she was speaking to him, realized that he, who always has something to say, couldn't think of anything to say to her.  But Madi didn't want words from Silver, she just wanted him there.  She embraced him first and Silver was I think surprised, I mean how many women have been interested in him since he lost his leg?  But then he slowly embraced he as well, great scene.  

 

I dunno if his leg has much to do it. I don't think he's had many chances to be around any women since his leg was amputated, and any women he'd be around wouldn't be shocked at the lack of a leg, and Silver didn't seem like a big womanizer in general (but not objecting to company when it came his way - like we saw in the first episode when he's "tested" by the prostitutes), but I think he was surprised that she was showing her feelings, her vulnerabilities so openly to him. It's a mirror scene from episode 6 - when he had his fever he let her see his weakness, and in that moment she was letting him see hers.

Edited March 20, 2016 by ulkis

[WatchrTina]

I sense that a lot of the Vane love came during last season, when Flint's sexuality was revealed. I sense that some men and some women might have thought twice about loving him as a character; the men because, well they don't want to appear "gay" for liking a gay (or bisexual) male character, and the women lost their romantic hero and put that all on Vane. So now the men have lost their "manly" character and the women have lost their "romantic" hero.

I don't pretend to speak for anyone but myself that that hypothesis in no way explains why I have grown to like Vane more and more as the series progressed. The biggest flaw in that argument is that the big reveal of Flint's love for Thomas was, for me, a perfectly wonderful, unexpected plot twist. It made me like Flint so much more (and explained so much about the strange relationship between Miranda Barlow and Flint.)

So no, my growing appreciation for Vane is in no way due to what you suggest. It comes from the writers, writing him in a much more interesting way. He was given a credible back-story to explain why he's such a tortured soul. He was given some terrific swash-buckling scenes and generally BAMF moments to make me enjoy him as an archetypal scary pirate -- one worthy of the reputation we are told about in the very first episode.

I really liked Eleanor at first. She put the grrr in girl-power in several early scenes in season 1. I was so happy to have a strong female protagonist to root for. I disliked Max from the start but I also disliked John and I thought it was great that those two unlikable, dishonest, scheming characters found each other in episode 1 and partnered up to give us a male-female duo to stir shit up on the show. I felt the same way about the pairing of bad-ass Anne and articulate-but-preening Jack. Those early days of the show promised me so much in the way of kick-ass women. Now the women all frequently bore me. I wish it weren't true but it is. They have often been written as short-sighted and ruthless or (in Anne's case) psychotic. Vane has been revealed as being much smarter than I originally gave him credit for. Eleanor has been revealed to be much more self-serving and amoral than I first gave her credit for. Max has grown smarter but no more likable (at least by me) while John has shown enormous character growth. I couldn't stand him in season 1. Now he's a favorite.

In short I don't like Eleanor because I think she's badly written (and occasionally badly acted). Her desire for revenge for the death of her father is presented to us as her main motivation this season but it just doesn't make sense. She didn't even LIKE her father. I can fan-wank that what's really motivating her is fear -- fear that Vane's not done taking revenge on her for her betrayal of him last season -- fear with a shame chaser because everything Vane threw in her face during that jail cell conversation was true. That makes more sense to me. But it doesn't make me like her any better.

Seriously, Billy was so goddamn smart in this episode, I'm gonna need him to be in charge of things more often because he really shines when he gets to do more than glare at Flint.

I second the motion! Remember it was Billy who told Flint that he should not go into Nassau to announce his return and his expectation that the pirates of Nassau would uphold their oaths and earn the money they'd been paid. Billy was the one who said Silver should go instead. That worked out well -- not for Mr. Dufresne or TeamRogers of course -- but it definitely worked out well for TeamFlint.

Edited March 21, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Neurochick]

I dunno if his leg has much to do it. I don't think he's had many chances to be around any women since his leg was amputated, and any women he'd be around wouldn't be shocked at the lack of a leg, and Silver didn't seem like a big womanizer in general (but not objecting to company when it came his way - like we saw in the first episode when he's "tested" by the prostitutes), but I think he was surprised that she was showing her feelings, her vulnerabilities so openly to him. It's a mirror scene from episode 6 - when he had his fever he let her see his weakness, and in that moment she was letting him see hers.

 

That's a very good point; it was the first time she was truly vulnerable around him.  

 

So no, my growing appreciation for Vane is in no way due to what you suggest.  It comes from the writers, writing him in a much more interesting way.  He was given a credible back-story to explain why he's such a tortured soul.  He was given some seriously terrific swash-buckling scenes and generally BAMF-moments to make me enjoy him as an archetypal scary pirate -- one worthy of the reputation we are told about in the very first episode.So no, my growing appreciation for Vane is in no way due to what you suggest.  It comes from the writers, writing him in a much more interesting way.  He was given a credible back-story to explain why he's such a tortured soul.  He was given some seriously terrific swash-buckling scenes and generally BAMF-moments to make me enjoy him as an archetypal scary pirate -- one worthy of the reputation we are told about in the very first episode.

 

 

I didn't say everybody who liked Vane in season 2 did so because of Flint's relationship reveal.  My point was that some people turned when it was revealed that Flint had a relationship with a man, I read plenty of comments on FB that Vane was the only "real man" on the show.  You may not have felt that way, but others do.

 

I like Max and have never really gotten the hatred for her.  Look, Max is a woman and a woman of color, a former slave.  The stakes are higher for her because in the "civilized" world she wouldn't be a business owner, she'd be a slave.   She knows Nassau is her only shot.  

 

Sometimes I feel it's easy for us, me included, to sit here in the 21st century and look at the female character and say, "they're dishonest" or "they're annoying."  When we in this century, in the first world have so many options.  Three hundred years ago women, black people were not thought of as people, but property, those were the rules.  So I get that Max is dishonest, she's in a society that doesn't view her as a human being. 

 

I also get why Eleanor was upset with Vane because of her father.  True, Eleanor didn't like her father at all, but he was HER father and it wasn't Vane's place to kill him.  It's not like she told him to kill her father and then hated him for it, it's like how an abused child will always defend a parent.  

Edited March 20, 2016 by Neurochick

[WatchrTina]

 I just watched again on an iMac with headphones.  Gosh this show is beautiful and the sound design is awesome.  That underwater scene, which visually explained what was going on with the two-anchor maneuver was fantastic.

 

This viewing pointed out a few new things for me to love --  namely the three conversations between Flint & Silver.  The look on Silver's face when he realizes that Flint isn't at all sure that two-anchor maneuver is going to work is priceless.  It's says "Dude, it was just a suggestion!"  Then came the funny back-and-forth over the punishment of the pirate who beat one of Madi's men.  "Sorted how?" . . . . "Sorted."  That was great.  And of course it led to the whole troubling conversation about dealing with that un-named something -- the darkness -- ending with "I can't tell if this was a warning or a welcome."  Nor could we John, nor could we.

[SimoneS]

I like Max and have never really gotten the hatred for her.  Look, Max is a woman and a woman of color, a former slave.  The stakes are higher for her because in the "civilized" world she wouldn't be a business owner, she'd be a slave.   She knows Nassau is her only shot.  

 

Sometimes I feel it's easy for us, me included, to sit here in the 21st century and look at the female character and say, "they're dishonest" or "they're annoying."  When we in this century, in the first world have so many options.  Three hundred years ago women, black people were not thought of as people, but property, those were the rules.  So I get that Max is dishonest, she's in a society that doesn't view her as a human being. =

 

I agree with this. I never chime in, but I am amazed at times at the criticize thrown at Max, in particular. There is no consideration or understanding of historical context or circumstances under which Max lives. Max is tied to Nassau in ways the other white characters are not. She is a former slave whose freedom would be imperiled if she left Nassau. Her papers could be easily ignored and she would be at risk of being enslaved again and raped constantly by the white men she encountered. To go from a prostitute raped in the streets to a respected business owner is something that could never happen anywhere else than Nassau. She has to scheme and ally herself with whoever is in power if they are willing to let her hold on to what she has accumulated. 

Edited March 21, 2016 by SimoneS

[Garnett7]

 

ETA:  My main complaint about this episode (and the last one) is that I think we are supposed to believe that:

    Eleanor really does love Rogers now and

    Eleanor really was upset about Vane killing her father.

 

Eleanor didn't like her father, but she absolutely loved him and, more over, wanted his love and respect. Children love their parents, even when their parents are emotionally abusive dickwheels like Richard Guthrie. She "hated" him for not caring about her but she still loved him. And she wanted his respect, for him to admit she was as worthy of the Guthrie name as a son would've been. So I can buy her being upset that Vane killed him right when she thought she was going to get those things.

 

But ITA on the insta-love with her and Rogers. That is so much harder to buy. And also why I think he will turn on her next week, a bit of karma catching up. Now it will be her turn to get back-stabbed by someone she "loves".

 

I'm not sure if Eleanor did things to make herself the scapegoat, though. I think it would hurt Rogers more than help him if he admitted he got played by the criminal he put in charge. He was warned about her repeatedly, his men distrusted her and thought him foolish for giving her so much power. All he'd do is lose their respect/trust if he admitted she abused the power he stupidly gave her against their advice.

 

Oh, geez, to the flip out fans who swear they will never, ever, EVER watch TV again. It's a knee-jerk reaction. Most of them will have their butts in front of the TV next season, whether they admit it or not. And, to me, they're not fans of the show as a whole if they do quit. They were shippers or just Vane fans, nothing else. And this is not a show for shippers or people who expect happy endings. I liked Vane. I liked him in season 1, even thought he was a jerk most of the time. I really came to appreciate him in season 2. I'll miss him but it's the world these characters live in. They die violently.

 

WatchrTina -- ITA with your entire post. I was back and forth on Flint until the Thomas reveal and that made me die-hard love him because I finally "got" him. It made everything with him click and I understood him and his tragedy. I know there were some assholes who reacted badly but I think the majority of the fandom did not. I also grew to like Vane more in season 2 because of the writing. And I've come to dislike Eleanor for the same reasons. I was never a die-hard fan of her's, always found her quite cold. But this season sealed her fate with me. She's irredeemable now (to me). She is the monster she accused Vane of being.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Garnett7

[ulkis]

I don't blame Eleanor for screwing over Vane. I suppose she's cold but she's not any colder than the rest of them imo. The pirates barely tolerated her when she was running the racket, I doubt they would have ever accepted her back. Maybe for a little while, but as soon as she stated some price they didn't like they'd probably turn on her.

 

I think there is a chance Hornigold might defect again though. 

 

re: Max, I get it when people say they just think her accent's annoying or whatever. I think that's fine. It's a tv show, I dislike characters for random, shallow reasons all the time. When people start talking about how she's an no-good seductress I get confused, but I enjoy her, so I hope she stays for however long the show lasts, or if she leaves, she at least escapes into the sunset with some pirate booty.

 

This viewing pointed out a few new things for me to love --  namely the three conversations between Flint & Silver.  The look on Silver's face when he realizes that Flint isn't at all sure that two-anchor maneuver is going to work is priceless.  It's says "Dude, it was just a suggestion!"  Then came the funny back-and-forth over the punishment of the pirate who beat one of Madi's men.  "Sorted how?" . . . . "Sorted."  That was great.  And of course it led to the whole troubling conversation about dealing with that un-named something -- the darkness -- ending with "I can't tell if this was a warning or a welcome."  Nor could we John, nor could we.

 

I liked those moments too, well, the first two. Silver's little smile and head nod after he said it was sorted was funny.

Edited March 21, 2016 by ulkis

[Tabasco Cat]

I like Max and have never really gotten the hatred for her.  Look, Max is a woman and a woman of color, a former slave.  The stakes are higher for her because in the "civilized" world she wouldn't be a business owner, she'd be a slave.   She knows Nassau is her only shot.  

 

Max has more than once planned to leave Nassau and I can't remember any of the other characters saying she was a slave.

 

My dislike of Max stems mostly from the actress's monotone delivery of soap-opera-ish lines. She was instrumental in some of the episodes but more often than not you can hit the Mute button on most of her scenes and not miss anything.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Tabasco Cat

[WatchrTina]

Max has more than once plotted to leave Nassau. They've never said she's a former slave.

There was that one scene where she talked about watching a girl her age through a window who was playing the piano while her father looked on and that man was also Max's father. So I presumed that scene took place on a plantation where she was born a slave. But I suppose it is also possible that she is one the free people of color (French: gens de couleur libres). You can google the term for a good explanation but basically they were mixed race people (like Max), the offspring of wealthy white men and their free mixed-race mistresses. They were a social class unto themselves. They existed in New Orleans and also in the Caribbean, generally in French-speaking areas. Anne Rice wrote a good novel about that demimonde called The Feast of All Saints (no vampires -- just historical fiction.)

But even if Max was born a free person of color, she's not living within the safety of that demimonde anymore as evidenced by the trash-talking she encountered while converting the gold to precious gems. So Max is an admirable character when you look at how far she has risen over the last 3 seasons. I still don't like her. The irony of her following exactly in Eleanor's footsteps by choosing power and position over the woman she supposedly loved is interesting, but it doesn't make me like her.

Edited March 22, 2016 by WatchrTina

[nodorothyparker]

I love The Feast of All Saints.  It's a great book that also gives you a fairly good understanding of the complex place and legal precariousness that free people of color occupied in New Orleans and throughout much of the Caribbean.

 

I find that I like Max more for what she represents than as an actual character.  A lot of it for me is how much time this season she's spent doing nothing but ruminating on how smart and powerful she is always in that same weird accented monotone that makes it very easy to tune her out.

[CatMack]

I'm not sure if Eleanor did things to make herself the scapegoat, though. I think it would hurt Rogers more than help him if he admitted he got played by the criminal he put in charge. He was warned about her repeatedly, his men distrusted her and thought him foolish for giving her so much power. All he'd do is lose their respect/trust if he admitted she abused the power he stupidly gave her against their advice.

 

I'm not saying it will work, I just don't know how else to interpret her line to him about trying to protect him.  They were alone and he was unconscious, she had no reason to say that unless she was sincere that she was trying to save him.  I'd be interested if anyone else has a different reading.  So far across all my various internet hang outs I haven't seen a whole lot of people trying to analyze Eleanor or her motivations (outside of "she's the worst human being ever" which....yeah she's kind of a horrible person, but the worst ever?  I would argue she's not even the worst on the show), so I'm kind of in my own little Eleanor bubble, but I'd be happy to consider other options.

[Garnett7]

Max mentioned this season that she would sneak away from the slave quarters to secretly watch her father and half-sister. So she was certainly a slave somewhere. I'd be curious to know how she ended up in Nassau. But I do agree on the actress' delivery of lines. She speaks in that monotone with the annoyingly fake accent. It can grate.

 

CatMack -- I do think that, in Eleanor's mind, she convinced herself she was doing all this to help Rogers. It just speaks to her lack of self-awareness. She brands Max a "pirate" this season, enemy of England, when Max hasn't done a fraction of the crap she did in power. All the insults she threw at Vane -- she was also describing herself without realizing it. Eleanor deludes herself and that scene with Rogers was just another moment of it. She tells him and herself it was all for him when it was really her need for revenge and to assert the power she had her hands on again. Eleanor reminds me of Cersei Lannister in that she's not nearly as smart as she thinks she is. She never clearly sees the big picture, it's all about right this moment and how it aids her right then.  Cersei to radical religious leader last season -- "Sure, have your insane cult. I'll use it to my benefit" . . . except the power she gave them was then used against her. Cersei to Jaime -- "Go get my daughter back at any cost" . . . except that cost was her daughter's life. Cersei to the people -- "I'm in charge, screw you all, I'll do what I want and you'll accept it" . . . and they turn on her. That's Eleanor to me. No consideration of the backlash she's about to get. Or, in this case, Rogers is about to get.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Garnett7

[WatchrTina]

 

All the insults she threw at Vane -- she was also describing herself without realizing it.

Exactly!  There is a school of thought that says the flaws we find most unforgivable in other people are the flaws we know we share with them. 

[nodorothyparker]

I wouldn't have thought to compare Eleanor to Cersei Lannister, I think she's at least usually a little bit smarter and self aware than that, but now I can see it.

 

I honestly don't know what her thinking is here and I'm really struggling to care beyond thinking it's going to come back to bite her in the ass in a big big way before it's all over.  But I've never bought the Eleanor-Woodes relationship.  If she's playing him for self-preservation, fine.  It's still a little gross considering how often he's threatened to send her back for her hanging, but whatever.  But that very stilted and convenient declaration of love?  No. Just no.  I don't know whether the writing really isn't making sense for me or I've just have found it one of the least interesting things about what's otherwise been a hell of well done and well thought out season.

Edited March 21, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[kaydros]

I just hope that Eleanor dies a slow and painful death, thats the only thing that would satisfy me. Not that I liked Vane or anything, but he sacrificed so much for her and he was the only one who truly loved her. I wonder if Vane's character (or death) was meant to introduce/motivate Blackbeard, but if Blackbeard decides to fight for Nassau, then Eleanor and Hornigold are done for.

Edited March 21, 2016 by kaydros

[Garnett7]

I think the writers are really trying hard to sell that Eleanor is "in love" with Rogers but it falls flat because we all know how she has "loved" people in the past. We've seen her throw people who loved her, people she claimed to love in return, to the wolves the second it benefited her. So it's hard to swallow that she's suddenly devoted and loyal to someone she's known for a hot minute.

 

I've always found Eleanor to be hugely lacking in self-awareness. LOL! She is the Cersei Lannister of Nassau. It's not that she isn't smart, but that she's not as smart as she thinks she is. She doesn't see what could go wrong, she just expects people to take what she dishes out and never retaliate, despite all the times they have retaliated.

 

In season one, she thought she could black-list Vane, kill his remaining crew, alienate him from Jack/Anne and that would be that. What could the wild animal she just backed into a corner possibly do in response but take it? Except he came back with a new crew and took the fort.

 

Season 2, she thought she could steal Abigail from under his nose and his men would turn on him, kill him and she'd walk away free. All good, right? Except it was her father and not Vane that died in response to her actions.

 

Which brings us to this week. She sees a way to extract her revenge on Vane and do it under the guise of "helping Rogers". To soften that blow, she plans to have destroyed Flint's army and recovered the cache to present to him when he wakes up. "Look at what I did for you, honey! War's over!". Except . . . .killing Vane destroys whatever trust Rogers had built to this point. It turns the streets against him. Killing Vane brings a previously neutral Blackbeard down on them. And sending that army after Flint leaves them exposed to an attack from BB or from Spain.

 

More of her lack of self-awareness and seeing the big picture, she boasts of how well she knows Flint. How she knows what he will do. How she knows how to defeat him. Except . . .. has it occurred to her that Flint doesn't have the IQ of a turtle? He KNOWS that she knows his tactics. He knows that she is feeding Rogers info about him and how he does things. He knows men familiar with him, like Hornigold, are coming for him. He would be a raging idiot to not have altered his usual tactics or made a plan for things they're not expecting of him. Flint is many things, but not an idiot. I'll be shocked if doesn't have some tricks up his sleeve.

[Neurochick]

When you say "lack of self awareness" do you mean has no idea how what she's doing will affect others?  Because yes, that is Eleanor.

 

I think the writers are really trying hard to sell that Eleanor is "in love" with Rogers but it falls flat because we all know how she has "loved" people in the past. We've seen her throw people who loved her, people she claimed to love in return, to the wolves the second it benefited her. So it's hard to swallow that she's suddenly devoted and loyal to someone she's known for a hot minute.

 

 

I don't think the writers are.  I think Eleanor is trying to sell that bullshit to herself.  Eleanor is a woman who will ALWAYS be attracted to the bad boys and she's trying to convince herself that she's no longer in love with Vane, that she's in love with Woodes, but she's not fooling anybody, not Max, not the audience, not even herself.  

[Garnett7]

 

When you say "lack of self awareness" do you mean has no idea how what she's doing will affect others?  Because yes, that is Eleanor.

 

Not just that but also she doesn't see that everything she condemns in others are all qualities she possesses, often she possesses them more than the people she's looking down on. She doesn't see that she's not so great with her plans and they often back-fire on her. That people won't accept her rule because she's heavy-handed with it. It's another reason I compare her to Cersei Lannister. Cersei's attitude is "I'm the Queen, everyone will bow to my will or else". Eleanor is often the same. She fails to see that people aren't going to accept and bend to her actions just because she wants them to. 

[DarkRaichu]

All these talks of darkness, I hope Flint and Silver do not end up as lumberjacks at the end of the series :P

 

I knew Vane would end up dead and this was probably the best way to make his hanging to mean something to the inhibitants of Nassau.

 

Curious as to why Max hold on to the information about the spy.

 

So did the British admiral took Eleanor's suggestion and brought along Hornigold and the ships from the interior people?  I could not tell from the last scenes

Edited March 21, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[Ravenya003]

I dunno... I still feel that Eleanor is playing some sort of long con here. I can't explain it, and I'm probably wrong, but I may as well put it down in writing so I can whip it out if I'm proved right. 

 

I also don't think she's "unself-aware". She knows people don't like her, and she knows there will be consequences for her actions (for example, she wasn't overly surprised Vane killed her father; she later stated: "that's war.") I also respect her for being at the hanging to watch Vane die. She could have hidden herself away until it was all over, but she saw it through.