S02.E02: Woman Of The Year?

[Tara Ariano]

After a political fight on the bus gets heated, the women decide to confront Cait on her aggressive debating style and suggest a more feminine approach.

[Artsda]

This bus trip is so awkward, especially with the politics fight.  So much tension. 

 

When this show is over, Cait will have nothing to do with these people.

[millennium]

Or maybe just nothing to do, period.

 

 

Scary.   Does her jaw unhinge, like a snake's?

Edited March 14, 2016 by millennium

[RemoteControlFreak]

I'm surprised at how sensitive the other people  on the bus -- with the exception of Chandi -- were to difference in opinions and styles. First, Jenny Boylan doesn't want to hear Kate Bornstein's views and life experience.  Then, they cower in fear when Cait Jenner speaks too strongly and too loudly for them and with views different from theirs.  Seems like a clear case of being able to dish it out but not take it and hiding behind the "triggering" excuse.

 

I don't agree with Cait's political views but I defend her right to speak her mind in whatever voice and style is true to her. I also recognize that emotional triggers exist for some people but I object to them being used as an excuse for refusing to listen or for outright censorship.

Edited March 14, 2016 by RemoteControlFreak

[DrivingSideways]

I was also shocked at the intolerance on the bus.  Don't get me wrong - I don't share political views with Cait, and Cait didn't do a stellar job of defending her conservative views.  But I can understand why she felt outnumbered and why she got defensive - and for the others to get up and leave because they were 'scared'?  It reminds me too much of the triggering I hear happening on college campuses today, and it frightens me about the future generation.  If you cannot even hear an opposing point of view, are we not on the road to a kind of fascism?  Oh God, I sound like Cait.

 

I don't know if it's just the show, but Jenny Boylan seems incapable of having any fun, whatsoever.  The only one on the bus who seems to have her head screwed on right is Kate Borstein.  And her story about her mother - this woman can tell a story!  I was riveted.

 

I loved how when they got up and bailed, Shandi sat right there because she could take it.  Having said all of that - there is certainly a way that a trans woman can be conservative, if she collected and described her views in a sensible way, the others may have been more open to it.  Cait is just a knee jerk conservative who probably would have served herself better to not talk about her politics.

[RemoteControlFreak]

  It reminds me too much of the triggering I hear happening on college campuses today, and it frightens me about the future generation.  If you cannot even hear an opposing point of view, are we not on the road to a kind of fascism?  Oh God, I sound like Cait.

Exactly and I share your fear.  There is something about a large segment of the current college generation that has learned that it's not OK to feel uncomfortable by other's words either spoken or written and those views have to be silenced because they may provoke unpleasant feelings.  Jenny Boylan is teaching at Barnard so she's right at the epi-center of this and apparently sees no hypocrisy in her insistence that Bornstein stop using the word "t*****" as a way of identifying herself, simply because it makes Jenny feel uncomfortable.

Edited March 14, 2016 by RemoteControlFreak

[bichonblitz]

When this show is over, Cait will have nothing to do with these people.

Or,  they will have nothing to do with her. 

 

I'm really starting to dislike Boylan. Lighten up, woman. 

 

I think during the political discussion Cait was reacting the way she was because she was outnumbered and cornered on that smelly bus. It has nothing to do with being a "knee jerk" conservative. In my opinion, Boylan is a bit of a bully herself. 

[Febgirl]

Once again, Ugh, Jenny Boylan.   There was one cutaway shot of her on the bus with her headphones on , and if looks could kill....

 Kate Bornstein, for me, was the highlight of last night's show. I love her impish personality, and really loved her getting into it with Boylan over the "T" word. And, I caught a glimpse of her TARDIS earrings.  I love that she's a Whovian.

 I feel as though Boylan is super protective of her image, what with being part of GLAAD and all, and is, as others have mentioned, a bully and a stick in the mud. 

Edited March 14, 2016 by Febgirl

[HumblePi]

Jenny Boylan has a huge inflated ego and because she's on the faculty of Barnard, she feels her opinions are more important and matter more than anyone's. For me, she has been off-putting precisely for that ability she has of trying to make others think as she thinks and believe, what she believes. That's not the real world. People are people whether they're straight, gay or transgender and have a right to their own opinions and way of thinking. But Jenny Boylan has lived under way different circumstances since her transition in 2000. She still lives with her spouse and two children. She put herself in the position of living two lives and still being who she really is, a transgender. I think that Kate Borstein has a much more realistic and grounded acceptance of who she is and how she's perceived and whether she's accepted or not accepted.

 

Caitlyn has a very long road ahead of her and although she doesn't realize it, she thinks she's already there. The only difference about her narrow minded way of thinking is that she can hide behind her transgender issues. She's still the same person inside her brain, that's not changing. This way of thinking is in direct conflict with her new lifestyle and the lifestyles of others who have transitioned. This is going to be something that Caitlyn will be forced to change if she wants acceptance, otherwise the community will rebuke her. Caitlyn Jenner does not have the strength to stand strong if the transgender community turns on her and begins to berate or reproach her instead of cheering and supporting her. The vehement affront Caitlyn had with the others about Republican v Democratic candidates illustrated that she isn't interested in listening and accepting historical facts. Caitlyn wants to hold onto her misguided ideas that are negative even though they have no factual basis or have been proven. It's narrow-minded, prejudicial and not the way to have an intelligent discussion.

 

I'm editing to add an afterthought. It was something that happened very quickly. When the group finally arrived and got settled in their rooms then sat down at a large table for dinner and everyone was uncomfortably quiet.  Jenny Boylan said "let's all hold hands. She proceeded to say "It's been a long day I thought". Everyone at that table knew what she meant and that she was obviously referring to the drama of the political debate. Caitly chimed in with the remark "It's a long way", meaning the trip itself, not the political friction. The others at the table remained silent and went on eating. It was awkward because they were uncomfortable and Caitlyn was very unaware and even unconcerned that she had made the situation difficult.

Edited March 14, 2016 by HumblePi

[Primetimer]

The road trip gets uncomfortable as Cait's politics make everyone literally flee the room.

Read the story

[HumblePi]

And it wasn't only her political views that made everyone flee like a fire in movie theater, it was her being one-sided and not open to listening to what others had to say. It was like she was playing a loop in her head, a loop of words and ideas that just recycles in her head and never deviates. This is the mark of a close minded person, one that's unwilling and unbending to acknowledge the ideas or opinions of others. This isn't the open mind of a transgender person, this is the mind of an old-school, die-hard rich Republican male.

Edited March 15, 2016 by 17wheatthins
Proper noun usage

[Artsda]

Jenny Boylan doesn't want to hear Kate Bornstein's views and life experience.  Then, they cower in fear when Cait Jenner speaks too strongly and too loudly for them and with views different from theirs.  Seems like a clear case of being able to dish it out but not take it and hiding behind the "triggering" excuse.

 

I agree, Jenny not getting along with Kate's views shows that Jenny has issues accepting any view other than her own. Everyone must agree with her. 

It's not Caitlyn not listening that caused Jenny to retreat and not be on the bus anymore. It's the fact Kate and Caitlyn don't conform to Jenny's demands of how they must represent the LGBT community. What party to support, what words to use. It has to be Jenny's way for her.

 

I'm no Republican, but I understand where Caitlyn is coming from with her comments and view point. She seems like the only one on the bus who understands and gets there's more to voting for a new President other than what the candidate did for the transgender community. There are other issues at stake, instead of voting for Hilary to be President, because she did something as a Senator.

[lizzy07]

 

Don't get me wrong - I don't share political views with Cait, and Cait didn't do a stellar job of defending her conservative views.

 

That was the problem. She not only got angry, she implied that the others weren't American ("*I'M* a conservative American," was very pointed) -- and then she didn't make her case well. If you're going to be 'passionate' about politics, at least have a good argument.

[RemoteControlFreak]

The others on the bus didn't do much better than Cait in articulating what made Hillary Clinton better than any Republicans. It was only Zackary who had an answer to Cait's question of what Clinton has accomplished.

 

But then Zackary pulls the cop-out line of, "I unfortunately don't feel, you know, comfortable or safe enough to disagree with you."  Come on! What's Cait going to do, punch Zackary?  Throw her out of the bus?  Disagreement is almost never comfortable or safe.  Don't use the "I don't feel safe" line as an excuse to not listen to or converse with people who hold views you don't share.  

Edited March 14, 2016 by RemoteControlFreak

[Muffyn]

Exactly and I share your fear.  There is something about a large segment of the current college generation that has learned that it's not OK to feel uncomfortable by other's words either spoken or written and those views have to be silenced because they may provoke unpleasant feelings.  Jenny Boylan is teaching at Barnard so she's right at the epi-center of this and apparently sees no hypocrisy in her insistence that Bornstein stop using the word "t*****" as a way of identifying herself, simply because it makes Jenny feel uncomfortable.

I enjoyed the discussion of the word “T*****” between Jenny and Kate.  I did not see Jenny as being overly sensitive or demanding the way some seem to.  I identify as queer, and I am old enough to remember when some members of our community fought to take this word back from the queer bashers.  This was very difficult for many older members of the community to accept.  When you have had a word screamed at you while you are being attacked, it is hard to transform it into a positive.  For Jenny, t***** had been yelled at her while she was horribly assaulted.  I don’t see it as being overly sensitive to not want to be reminded of that time.  Currently, the transpeople I know are very opposed to the use of the T word.   Typically this is because of their personal experiences with it and it being used to demean and diminish the people in this community.  They see the T word as the equivalent of the N word.

 

For Kate, this word was a critical part of her early coming out.  At that time, in her community, t***** had a different meaning.  Her community used this as a way to speak to each other.  I am American Indian.  There are words we use among friends in our community that we would never want to hear from others.  The usage within our group solidifies us in a way.  That does not change the meaning of these words when used by others. 

 

As to whether someone is being overly sensitive, I often think back to a time when I was dating a Jewish woman.  I rode a motorcycle and had a black leather jacket.  When I met her grandmother for the first time, her grandmother visibly blanched and was shaken.  She told me that she was reacting to the leather.  She had been in a concentration camp.  To her, black leather equals gestapo.  I had two choices.  I could dig in my heels, explain why I needed to wear leather, and continue wearing the jacket around her.  Instead I decided I do not have the right to create that level of pain in another person.  I still needed the jacket for protection on the bike.  So I would always take it off before going in the apartment or wherever else we might meet.  I would turn the jacket inside out and fold it up.  This simple act made things much easier for this wonderful woman. 

 

Clearly Kate and Jenny have had the T word discussion before.  They disagree and will continue to.  For me, the conversation was interesting.  At the same time, I would hope that Kate would be sensitive enough to not use that word around Jenny. 

 

I did find it a bit much that people were saying they felt threatened by Caitlyn’s defense of her position.  She was loud and over-bearing.  I did not perceive her as scary.  She was being a total dick, not willing to listen and yelling over top of everyone.  Then again, Cait has always been a dick.  Nothing to see here.  She is an entitled, over-bearing, self-important twit.  If any of the busmates are expecting to have a nuanced discussion with her, they are pumping a dry well.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Muffyn

[Artsda]

Saying they were scared of her was silly. She along with Chandra never moved from her chair or the position she was in, so what were they all so scaredand frightened over? Someone with a different viewpoint from there own? It seems Cait doesn't agree or doesn't conform so they run out of the room and then claim they are scared of her?

I'm surprised at how narrow minded they all are, Caitlyn's got the excuse that she's "new" all the rest don't.

[nexxie]

Bruce was an obnoxious bully (remember him yelling at everyone on trips) and Caitlyn is an obnoxious bully - both were/are entitled and set in a tight fearful mindset.

Really enjoying the other women, though Jenny can be tedious.

[HumblePi]

I am in awe at how intelligent and rational Zackary Drucker is. She made more points in her POV reflections about Caitlyn than either Kate or Jenny Boylan. I think that they should show more of Zackary and her points of view than Boylan.

 

I can't even imagine how Caitlyn managed to raise 3 stepchildren and 2 children that are all female and all totally anti-conservative.

Edited March 14, 2016 by HumblePi

[HumblePi]

I just wanted to share a funny story about toilets since the culmination of their trip seemed to be the placement of the 'neutral' bathroom sign with both a male and female on it. Watching that I wondered if people realize how good we have it in the United States. We like to think we're appreciative of what we have here in the US but do we really know how much we have that other countries don't? The campaign slogan "Make America Great Again" has irritated me since I first heard it because guess what, America already is great. It's probably the greatest country in the world. But yes, certainly we have a lot of work ahead to make  it better. But putting all the politics aside, my mind went back to a small town in Mexico that I had visited in the 90's while traveling. I had to use the restroom, I didn't expect to find both a male and a female separate restroom, after all, this was Mexico. But what I found surprised even me. It looked identical to this photo. Forget about male/female bathroom, forget about privacy and forget about the luxury of a toilet seat. Incidentally, only one of the two china thrones had water and was operational.

 

I know it's a great big deal for people that have transitioned to have their unisex bathrooms finally in some places, but considering the alternatives they have in other countries around the world, it all seem just a bit trifling now.

 

 

*I have edited my verbiage to be politically correct and also to be in compliance with the guidelines of the LGBT community.

Edited March 14, 2016 by HumblePi

[RemoteControlFreak]

I know it's a great big deal for transgenders to ...

 

Transgender is not a noun.  

[HumblePi]

 

But then Zackary pulls the cop-out line of, "I unfortunately don't feel, you know, comfortable or safe enough to disagree with you."  Come on! What's Cait going to do, punch Zackary?  Throw her out of the bus?  Disagreement is almost never comfortable or safe.  Don't use the "I don't feel safe" line as an excuse to not listen to or converse with people who hold views you don't share.  

As you just stated, heated disagreements do present some dangers. If a person wants to remain in a 'safe' or 'indifferent' zone then they avoid confrontation. There's always a danger of a difference of opinion becoming so filled with anger that words might be said that could never be retracted. I'm sure we've all been there at one time. I think that Zackary expressed her opinion to mean that she didn't want to breach that comfort level with Caitlyn and alienate her. Giving Caitlyn time to calm down and get to a point where she could communicate without anger was the best alternative. The others didn't feel safe going there, and it wasn't that they felt physically threatened.

Edited March 14, 2016 by HumblePi

[nexxie]

I am in awe at how intelligent and rational Zackary Drucker is. She made more points in her POV reflections about Caitlyn than either Kate or Jenny Boylan. I think that they should show more of Zackary and her points of view than Boylan.

 

I can't even imagine how Caitlyn managed to raise 3 stepchildren and 2 children that are all female and all totally anti-conservative.

Zackary is great - I really enjoy her wise comments!

[millennium]

Saying they were scared of her was silly. She along with Chandra never moved from her chair or the position she was in, so what were they all so scaredand frightened over? Someone with a different viewpoint from there own? It seems Cait doesn't agree or doesn't conform so they run out of the room and then claim they are scared of her?

I'm surprised at how narrow minded they all are, Caitlyn's got the excuse that she's "new" all the rest don't.

 

I find that individuals who seek to represent or speak for other people are often not very good people themselves.

Edited March 14, 2016 by millennium

[TomGirl]

"She was being a total dick, not willing to listen and yelling over top of everyone. Then again, Cait has always been a dick. Nothing to see here. She is an entitled, over-bearing, self-important twit."

This. I really don't care for Caitlyn in any way, and don't think she serves as a good representative of her community. But I watch because most of the other women are so great and have so much to say that is worth listening to. I especially love Kate, Candis and Zackary, and am very impressed with young Ella. These are beautiful, thoughtful, articulate women. I'd go on a bus tour with them any day, as long as we could dump Caitlyn.

[iwasish]

I must have missed something, but what was the big deal about putting a male/female sign on the door to a one stall bathroom? Aren't all bathrooms with one toilet automatically male/female or unisex?    

[iwasish]

I just wanted to share a funny story about toilets since the culmination of their trip seemed to be the placement of the 'neutral' bathroom sign with both a male and female on it. Watching that I wondered if people realize how good we have it in the United States. We like to think we're appreciative of what we have here in the US but do we really know how much we have that other countries don't? The campaign slogan "Make America Great Again" has irritated me since I first heard it because guess what, America already is great. It's probably the greatest country in the world. But yes, certainly we have a lot of work ahead to make  it better. But putting all the politics aside, my mind went back to a small town in Mexico that I had visited in the 90's while traveling. I had to use the restroom, I didn't expect to find both a male and a female separate restroom, after all, this was Mexico. But what I found surprised even me. It looked identical to this photo. Forget about male/female bathroom, forget about privacy and forget about the luxury of a toilet seat. Incidentally, only one of the two china thrones had water and was operational.

 

I know it's a great big deal for people that have transitioned to have their unisex bathrooms finally in some places, but considering the alternatives they have in other countries around the world, it all seem just a bit trifling now.

 

 

*I have edited my verbiage to be politically correct and also to be in compliance with the guidelines of the LGBT community.

In line with this, my sister lived in Italy for a few years and said that the public restrooms were nothing more than holes in the floor with the imprints of  feet straddling them, a squat and dump kind of thing.. also, bring your own toilet paper. Little kids sometimes jwould just squat and pee on the curb or in an alley.

[GaT]

I find that individuals who seek to represent or speak for other people are often not very good people themselves.

Interesting.

[millennium]

Smartypants.

[Kromm]

"She was being a total dick, not willing to listen and yelling over top of everyone. Then again, Cait has always been a dick. Nothing to see here. She is an entitled, over-bearing, self-important twit."

This. I really don't care for Caitlyn in any way, and don't think she serves as a good representative of her community. But I watch because most of the other women are so great and have so much to say that is worth listening to. I especially love Kate, Candis and Zackary, and am very impressed with young Ella. These are beautiful, thoughtful, articulate women. I'd go on a bus tour with them any day, as long as we could dump Caitlyn.

But they're inherently compromised in large part by being on this show. Sure it's exposure and has led to a lot of this being heard. But it followed this aggressive campaign of everyone getting in line and lionizing Caitlyn. The only reason that's slipped is because of her own big mouth--or they'd STILL likely be doing it.

[millennium]

By their presence and participation -- by their willingness to play second bananas to Jenner -- Boylan and the rest perpetuate the false premise that Jenner is some kind of leader and that the future of the transgender community rests squarely upon her broad shoulders.   They act shocked and offended when her highness opens her mouth, but each of them is enabling Jenner's brand of ignorance and insensitivity, and being paid for that very service.   I don't respect any of them.

[Cosmic Muffin]

Maybe season 3 can be We Are Not Cait, and show the other ladies driving around without Cait.They can show her hitting golf balls off her lawn.

[HumblePi]

It's been mentioned a couple of times on the show that Caitlyn is still living in the 'pink cloud', ecstatic about finally living her dream as a woman. Her focus is on the delight in the female accoutrements such as expensive designer clothes, long hair, makeup and plastic surgery to make her face more feminine. She hadn't really considered the legal rights she would be either denied or entitled to by Constitutional law. She had 65 years to think of those things, but did she really do that? If she had, she could have easily done a lot of research into the struggles of transgenders or anyone that's involved with the issues of the LGBT community. 

 

Caitlyn is a 'babe in the woods' so to speak when it comes to awareness of the many issues facing LGBT. The day will come when she'll come face to face with hatred and scorn, and she is not going to take it well. Statements she made prove that she's very naive and really not grasping what the others are trying to explain.

 

"Sometimes these girls think that now that I've transitioned that everything has to change," (Caitlyn told the cameras in a private interview later.)

 

"You can't be conservative anymore. You have to be a liberal. No, I don't believe that."

 

She then added: 'I think I can keep all of my views the same cause I feel in my heart that's the best way to go.'

 

This comes after Caitlyn said that she wants to date a man and have a traditional boyfriend/girlfriend relationship

[Kromm]

It's been mentioned a couple of times on the show that Caitlyn is still living in the 'pink cloud', ecstatic about finally living her dream as a woman.

I think that's being used as a justification/excuse for her behavior, and by people who now feel a little ashamed of championing her. I'm not saying that phenomenon might not really exist for anyone. But even if it actually applies to Caitlyn Jenner, it neither excuses nor fully explains the sheer level of manipulation and hypocrisy. She's not some babe in the woods acting naive due to a pink cloud, she's an aggressively ignorant, shitty human being where her gender really makes no difference other than the wrapping around the package. Her obsession with what are surface elements of femininity for other women isn't an explanation for her contradictory thought process on transgender iseues, her tendency to appoint herself spokeswoman, or her aggressive self-marketing--it dovetails with those nicely into a mosaic of dysfunction, but she's unlikely to emerge from some magical pink cloud and suddenly be significantly less vain, stupid or greedy.

[marsha]

By their presence and participation -- by their willingness to play second bananas to Jenner -- Boylan and the rest perpetuate the false premise that Jenner is some kind of leader and that the future of the transgender community rests squarely upon her broad shoulders.   They act shocked and offended when her highness opens her mouth, but each of them is enabling Jenner's brand of ignorance and insensitivity, and being paid for that very service.   I don't respect any of them.

 

 

millinnium, I couldn't agree with you more and was just about to come here to say pretty much the same thing but you said it so very, very well.

 

The only thing is I'll always love Kate Bornstein (and I don't agree 100% with her, either) as I've been reading her for years and have seen many of her performance pieces and spoken work. I think she's terrific. Boylan, on the other hand, has always been a bit of a pill and quite fond of her own voice.

 

Yeah, I have zero expectations that this trip will in any way change Cait's mind about anything. I'm just on the ride now for Kate B. and the others and to see just how big a hole Cait will dig herself into every week.

[Cosmic Muffin]

Chaz Bono take the wheel!

[millennium]

millinnium, I couldn't agree with you more and was just about to come here to say pretty much the same thing but you said it so very, very well.

 

The only thing is I'll always love Kate Bornstein (and I don't agree 100% with her, either) as I've been reading her for years and have seen many of her performance pieces and spoken work. I think she's terrific. Boylan, on the other hand, has always been a bit of a pill and quite fond of her own voice.

 

Yeah, I have zero expectations that this trip will in any way change Cait's mind about anything. I'm just on the ride now for Kate B. and the others and to see just how big a hole Cait will dig herself into every week.

 

I remember Kate Bornstein from almost 40 years ago when I would feign sickness so I could stay home from school and watch her and other transsexual women on the Phil Donahue show, etc.    In those days there was nowhere else to get information about gender dysphoria.   It wasn't like you could ask your parents or teachers about it.    You couldn't even admit to feeling that way.

 

It's still no cakewalk, but the internet changed a lot.   I'm sure some would like to credit Jenner for starting a national conversation about being transgender, but it was already under way.   All Jenner did was exploit it and cash in on it.    Because she's just that crass.  She's the Donald Trump of the transgender world.

 

Bornstein has been fighting the good fight for all these years.    To someone like me, who remembers KB in her early 30s, it's sad to see her keeping company now with a self-absorbed poser like Jenner, and in a subordinate role.

Edited March 15, 2016 by millennium

[Kenz]

I'm really curious to see what Cait's life will be like in a few years when she isn't awarded all these accolades. Being on the front cover and getting raves for her Vanity Fair piece, named Sportsperson of the Year by Sports Illustrated, and Glamour's Woman of the Year must make her feel very special. I'm sure she is reveling in all of the attention, but when she gets off of this fame train and doesn't have a TV show, I suspect that she will still be this shallow person. I don't see her being open to the ladies on her trip because other than being transgender, she doesn't seem to have anything in common with them and really doesn't seem to even try relate to them or their struggles. I suppose she'll still be able to afford her makeup and hair team in the years ahead though, because looking pretty is what it's all about.

[Muffyn]

I must have missed something, but what was the big deal about putting a male/female sign on the door to a one stall bathroom? Aren't all bathrooms with one toilet automatically male/female or unisex?    

If the restaurant had two single usage bathrooms, they most likely had signage making one for men and one for women.  By adding a male/female sign to both bathrooms, anyone can use either one, regardless of gender or gender presentation.  This makes it safer for transpersons and non-binary persons to use the bathrooms because they will not be challenged on gender appearance. 

 

Cait has broadcast transgender issues to a broader audience.  At the same time, she is the worst representative possible.  Her ignorance is astounding. 

 

When Kate B was telling the story of coming out to her mother, did anyone else think they heard Cait laugh during the early part of the story? 

[TomGirl]

In terms of understanding the issues and emotions related to identifying as transgender, give me "I Am Jazz" over "I Am Cait" any day.

[Kromm]

I'm sure some would like to credit Jenner for starting a national conversation about being transgender, but it was already under way.   All Jenner did was exploit it and cash in on it.    Because she's just that crass.  She's the Donald Trump of the transgender world.

Ouch. But true.

 

 

 

 

Bornstein has been fighting the good fight for all these years.    To someone like me, who remembers KB in her early 30s, it's sad to see her keeping company now with a self-absorbed poser like Jenner, and in a subordinate role.

Or even in the last few years there are any number of transgender public figures who aren't repulsive narcissists like Jenner. Who mainly had less press because they weren't opportunists.

In terms of understanding the issues and emotions related to identifying as transgender, give me "I Am Jazz" over "I Am Cait" any day.

Oh. You mean a human being vs. a piece of garbage? Sure!

[BananaRama]

During their political debate on the bus, I didn't find Caitlyn's behavior offensive or alarming.  I don't agree with what she said, but I didn't think she was scary.  She has been on a bus for several hours and is a conservative discussing politics with six liberals.  Caitlyn had to raise her voice because she felt she was being ganged up on and not listened to. Maybe Caitlyn wasn't listening to them either, but  I was impressed that she was willing to stay and argue instead of throwing up her hands and leaving like the other women did.  And then they corner Caitlyn and tell her they are concerned about what happened on the bus.  When Caitlyn tries to apologize for being passionate about the issues, Jenny shuts her down and tells her its not about the issues but about her behavior.  

[Julia]

I enjoyed the discussion of the word “T*****” between Jenny and Kate. I did not see Jenny as being overly sensitive or demanding the way some seem to. I identify as queer, and I am old enough to remember when some members of our community fought to take this word back from the queer bashers. This was very difficult for many older members of the community to accept. When you have had a word screamed at you while you are being attacked, it is hard to transform it into a positive. For Jenny, t***** had been yelled at her while she was horribly assaulted. I don’t see it as being overly sensitive to not want to be reminded of that time. Currently, the transpeople I know are very opposed to the use of the T word. Typically this is because of their personal experiences with it and it being used to demean and diminish the people in this community. They see the T word as the equivalent of the N word.

As to whether someone is being overly sensitive, I often think back to a time when I was dating a Jewish woman. I rode a motorcycle and had a black leather jacket. When I met her grandmother for the first time, her grandmother visibly blanched and was shaken. She told me that she was reacting to the leather. She had been in a concentration camp. To her, black leather equals gestapo. I had two choices. I could dig in my heels, explain why I needed to wear leather, and continue wearing the jacket around her. Instead I decided I do not have the right to create that level of pain in another person. I still needed the jacket for protection on the bike. So I would always take it off before going in the apartment or wherever else we might meet. I would turn the jacket inside out and fold it up. This simple act made things much easier for this wonderful woman.

Good for you. Sometimes it's really hard to remember (for me, anyway) that things can signify completely different things to the people around me and be sensitive to that.

I'm not saying that phenomenon might not really exist for anyone. But even if it actually applies to Caitlyn Jenner, it neither excuses nor fully explains the sheer level of manipulation and hypocrisy. She's not some babe in the woods acting naive due to a pink cloud, she's an aggressively ignorant, shitty human being where her gender really makes no difference other than the wrapping around the package. Her obsession with what are surface elements of femininity for other women isn't an explanation for her contradictory thought process on transgender iseues, her tendency to appoint herself spokeswoman, or her aggressive self-marketing--it dovetails with those nicely into a mosaic of dysfunction, but she's unlikely to emerge from some magical pink cloud and suddenly be significantly less vain, stupid or greedy.

The thing is, though, the women in Caitlyn's life were the Kardashians, who arguably are equally aggressively ignorant, shitty human beings whose gender really makes no difference other than the wrapping around the package.

I think Cait had one really good point - I assume her outside matches the woman she's seen herself as now, but I don't see any reason to believe that Cait has changed in any of the essentials. When she was Bruce she was a privileged asshole with retrograde views who chose one of the least authentic cis women I've ever been exposed to as her life partner and pitched right in marketing her equally plastic daughters and the name of the husband whose bed he screwed her in. But what was Bruce ever famous for? He was pretty wrapped in a flag, and his body could do really cool stuff. Nobody ever loved him for his mind.

The woman Cait is looks a lot like the women she admired enough to spend her life with when she was living as a man because she thinks a certain kind of shitty values look good on women. No big surprise.

During their political debate on the bus, I didn't find Caitlyn's behavior offensive or alarming. I don't agree with what she said, but I didn't think she was scary. She has been on a bus for several hours and is a conservative discussing politics with six liberals. Caitlyn had to raise her voice because she felt she was being ganged up on and not listened to. Maybe Caitlyn wasn't listening to them either, but I was impressed that she was willing to stay and argue instead of throwing up her hands and leaving like the other women did. And then they corner Caitlyn and tell her they are concerned about what happened on the bus. When Caitlyn tries to apologize for being passionate about the issues, Jenny shuts her down and tells her its not about the issues but about her behavior.

Cait is a big woman. When someone who is a large, angry famous athlete starts shouting down what they have to say, I think most people would get the hell out of the way and take it up later, because the kind interpretation is that the person is too emotional to behave well. I kind of question that - I think Cait shouts people down because Cait feels as if that's an appropriate response to being disagreed with - but the problem certainly was her behavior and not the issues she refused to discuss like an adult in a more than black and white world.

[RemoteControlFreak]

Good for you. Sometimes it's really hard to remember (for me, anyway) that things can signify completely different things to the people around me and be sensitive to that.

There's a difference between recognizing the effect of words and being told that a discussion will not take place because some of the listeners don't feel "safe" hearing them. The latter is the current state of affairs on many college campuses right now.  Books aren't included in classes and controversial issues aren't discussed because students claim that listening to or reading disturbing content will trigger bad feelings in them and make then feel psychically unsafe.  This is a bogus copout IMHO.  True growth and education requires confronting the different and the uncomfortable.

 

Jenny Boylan and Zackary Drucker perfectly demonstrated this current trend in this episode: Jenny in refusing to acknowledge Kate Bornstein's choice to label herself "a t*****," and Zackary for claiming that she wouldn't discuss politics with Cait Jenner because doing so made her feel unsafe.   

Edited March 15, 2016 by RemoteControlFreak

[Kromm]

Bruce was a privileged asshole with retrograde views who chose one of the least authentic cis women I've ever been exposed to as his life partner and pitched right in marketing her equally plastic daughters and the name of the husband whose bed he screwed her in. But what was Bruce ever famous for? He was pretty wrapped in a flag, and his body could do really cool stuff. Nobody ever loved him for his mind.

People bang on about what a big deal Bruce was at one point, and on some level I do agree. Please note I'm talking about Bruce as a historical personage, which is why in this one case I'm not saying "Caitlyn" (and because Caitlyn has made it very clear over and again that her own references to that time are about "Bruce").

Bruce Jenner was at one time massively famous apart from any later marriage, or transition. But it was the kind of fame that really had a cap on it. Bruce was always going be famous in a historical sense, I mean, but not necessarily relevant or even known to younger people. I mean people forget that Bruce was only in 2 Olympics period (and was less than a footnote in 1972). But Olympic glory in those days (in other words winning) was ALL inherently about retiring from the sport, cashing in, and hyping yourself from it.

 

I mean really if you think about it Bruce Jenner shouldn't have been significantly more memorable or enduring compared to lets say... Mark Spitz. Mark Who? some of you who are not old may be saying. Exactly. That's the point. But Spitz was mondo-sports-famous at one time.

 

I guess my point is that the "hero" stuff should have always been taken with a grain of salt. As impressive as Jenner's 1976 Olympic performance was, should it really have endured more than Spitz?  Or Carl Lewis? Or Jenny Thompson (I hear another big "who?" but look her up), or any number of other Olympic greats who won TONS of medals?

 

Oh, if you're prepared to be massively annoyed, this just in:

 

Caitlyn Jenner ‘willing to listen’ after meeting Hillary Clinton

 

It's so insulting to most of America, but likely even moreso to actual transgender activists, that a piece of refuse like Caitlyn Jenner gets special meetings with likely presidents. To me, if I were them, I'd consider it a slap in the face.

Also, honestly, why should anyone CARE at this point if Caitlyn Jenner's mind is moved on anything? It would seem suspiciously like fodder for a storyarc for her show and likely totally bogus.

(Okay, I see the actual photo op was with 3 other people, but even still...)

[RemoteControlFreak]

People bang on about what a big deal Bruce was at one point, and on some level I do agree. Please note I'm talking about Bruce as a historical personage, which is why in this one case I'm not saying "Caitlyn" (and because Caitlyn has made it very clear over and again that her own references to that time are about "Bruce").

Bruce Jenner was at one time massively famous apart from any later marriage, or transition. But it was the kind of fame that really had a cap on it. Bruce was always going be famous in a historical sense, I mean, but not necessarily relevant or even known to younger people. I mean people forget that Bruce was only in 2 Olympics period (and was less than a footnote in 1972). But Olympic glory in those days (in other words winning) was ALL inherently about retiring from the sport, cashing in, and hyping yourself from it.

 

I mean really if you think about it Bruce Jenner shouldn't have been significantly more memorable or enduring compared to lets say... Mark Spitz. Mark Who? some of you who are not old may be saying. Exactly. That's the point. But Spitz was mondo-sports-famous at one time.

 

I guess my point is that the "hero" stuff should have always been taken with a grain of salt. As impressive as Jenner's 1976 Olympic performance was, should it really have endured more than Spitz?  Or Carl Lewis? Or Jenny Thompson (I hear another big "who?" but look her up), or any number of other Olympic greats who won TONS of medals?

 

Oh, if you're prepared to be massively annoyed, this just in:

 

Caitlyn Jenner ‘willing to listen’ after meeting Hillary Clinton

 

It's so insulting to most of America, but likely even moreso to actual transgender activists, that a piece of refuse like Caitlyn Jenner gets special meetings with likely presidents. To me, if I were them, I'd consider it a slap in the face.

Also, honestly, why should anyone CARE at this point if Caitlyn Jenner's mind is moved on anything? It would seem suspiciously like fodder for a storyarc for her show and likely totally bogus.

(Okay, I see the actual photo op was with 3 other people, but even still...)

It doesn't look like Cait got a special meeting with Clinto.  The bus tour made a stop in Iowa while campaigning for the Iowa caucuses was going on.  The pic was with the other women on the I am Cait bus tour and doesn't imply anything more than an opportune photo.

 

It doesn't look like Cait's ever given more thought to politics or engaged in deep thought on much of anything. Her claim that Donald Trump would be good for women defies logic.  Her opinions of candidates on the right and on the left are probably based on little more than what can be read in People magazine.

 

Also, while I disagree with Jenner's politics and with the entire Kardashian-Jenner approach to fame and celebrity, calling her a "piece of refuse" seems excessive.

Edited March 15, 2016 by RemoteControlFreak

[iwasish]

If the restaurant had two single usage bathrooms, they most likely had signage making one for men and one for women.  By adding a male/female sign to both bathrooms, anyone can use either one, regardless of gender or gender presentation.  This makes it safer for transpersons and non-binary persons to use the bathrooms because they will not be challenged on gender appearance. 

 

Cait has broadcast transgender issues to a broader audience.  At the same time, she is the worst representative possible.  Her ignorance is astounding. 

 

When Kate B was telling the story of coming out to her mother, did anyone else think they heard Cait laugh during the early part of the story? 

Thanks for the explanation, but it seems strange that anyone would care who used a single use bathroom just prior to using it themselves.  Home bathrooms are single use aren't they?

[iwasish]

Good for you. Sometimes it's really hard to remember (for me, anyway) that things can signify completely different things to the people around me and be sensitive to that.

 

 

The thing is, though, the women in Bruce's life were the Kardashians, who arguably are equally aggressively ignorant, shitty human beings whose gender really makes no difference other than the wrapping around the package.

 

I think Cait had one really good point - I assume her outside matches the woman she's seen herself as now, but I don't see any reason to believe that Cait has changed in any of the essentials. Bruce was a privileged asshole with retrograde views who chose one of the least authentic cis women I've ever been exposed to as his life partner and pitched right in marketing her equally plastic daughters and the name of the husband whose bed he screwed her in. But what was Bruce ever famous for? He was pretty wrapped in a flag, and his body could do really cool stuff. Nobody ever loved him for his mind.

 

The woman Cait is looks a lot like the women she admired enough to spend her life with when she was living as a man because she thinks a certain kind of shitty values look good on women. No big surprise.

 

 

Cait is a big woman. When someone who is a large, angry famous athlete starts shouting down what they have to say, I think most people would get the hell out of the way and take it up later, because the kind interpretation is that the person is too emotional to behave well. I kind of question that - I think Cait shouts people down because Cait feels as if that's an appropriate response to being disagreed with - but the problem certainly was her behavior and not the issues she refused to discuss like an adult in a more than black and white world.

True, but the whole dynamic of the Kardashian/Jenner family is to shout each other down, along with calling each other names. It may well have been the way she 

was able to get anyone to listen to her.

[SnarkKitty]

Personally, I detest single use bathrooms and avoid if at all possible. I do not like sharing bathrooms with boys/men. And yes, that includes my husband and son.

[Kromm]

Also, while I disagree with Jenner's politics and with the entire Kardashian-Jenner approach to fame and celebrity, calling her a "piece of refuse" seems excessive.

Do I owe her politeness, or a 20th or such instance of benefit of the doubt?

 

She has her right to exist and be what she is. But that doesn't mean I have to have even a smidgen of respect for her.

[Julia]

Do I owe her politeness, or a 20th or such instance of benefit of the doubt?

 

She has her right to exist and be what she is. But that doesn't mean I have to have even a smidgen of respect for her.

For whatever little it's worth, since Cait's producers are inventing her for an audience who is decidedly not me, it has never struck me that Cait thinks she deserves respect as a trans woman. I think she expects to be treated like a respected celebrity despite being a trans woman, in much the same way as Sarah Palin expects to be able to run the country from a platform of second-class status and subservience for women.