S05.E12: Souls Of The Departed

[Shanna Marie]

Thinking back on this, while it was nice to see Regina be remorseful and make apologies for something, in a way it makes things worse as a whole because it shows that she is capable of remorse and is capable of apologizing, so it's not just a case of "that's not the way she is." So why can't she do that to the people she's around on a daily basis? And since the only person she seems to feel remorse about and has apologized to is her father, it makes it look like she only feels bad when it affects her. She didn't give a second thought to the jester she murdered for not amusing her, the knight she killed when she thought she was killing Snow, any of the other people she's slaughtered on a whim, or even the people she claims to care about now who've just about killed themselves trying to help her. So did she feel bad and apologize to her father because she really believed she did the wrong thing, or because she was sad that she removed her father from her life twice, first by shrinking and boxing him and later by killing him?

[KingOfHearts]

It's the REC. She only has to care about what the plot needs her to care about for the episode. Since Henry Sr. was her father, he's the only one she needs to be remorseful about. If she showed any sympathy for the main characters, she wouldn't as "edgy" or "gray" when in the bunch. Being mean is funnier to A&E, anyway.

Edited March 19, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

Thinking back on this, while it was nice to see Regina be remorseful and make apologies for something, in a way it makes things worse as a whole because it shows that she is capable of remorse and is capable of apologizing, so it's not just a case of "that's not the way she is." So why can't she do that to the people she's around on a daily basis?

 

I doubt we're going to get an apology from Regina to the Charmings/Emma that comes anywhere close to the emotional mess that was her father's apology. I guess part of the reason her apology to her father was so emotional is because she turns into a little girl around him and calls him "daddy" even as a grown ass woman. The apology sounded less like an adult apologizing to her parent and more like a kid who just broke the family's expensive vase.

[Camera One]

There's no need to apologize anymore because Emma and the Charmings often act like they owe Regina rather than the other way around.  Regina even used "we" when speaking of who's responsible for the unfinished business of the souls in Underbrooke, and so did Rumple.  And R&R are essentially A&E.  Regina gets Twitter duty while Rumple gives snarky dismissive remarks in print interviews.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

You guys are one of the main reasons I still obsess over this Show. Keep the snark coming! :-) :-)

[KingOfHearts]

Finally got to 5B. This is where it all goes to hell... literally.

Parts of this episode are beautiful, and others offensively boring. The Underbrooke stuff was amazing and it was awesome seeing all the dead characters again. The setting has so much more charm than Storybrooke. It's nice to see the town itself benefiting the characterization again. What I hate is the Neal fan service and mostly pointless flashbacks. Other than those two things... it's pretty solid as a spring premiere.

Why is that when Henry Jr. made Regina realize she was becoming her mother she changed, but with Henry Sr., she didn't care? She's been pretty retconned. Before, she seemed like a reject who never got a chance to be enlightened. But we've seen from episodes like this that she had many opportunities to change. I found myself wondering which moment she realized her revenge quest was not worth it. Then I realized we never saw it and we're just supposed to assume it happened. Anyway, back to the episode...

I enjoyed seeing Regina legitimately apologizing and working it out. There was some nice character development. Cora was handled well throughout. 

[Shanna Marie]

It was highly amusing watching this episode right after the previous one rather than after a months-long break. In the previous one, Rumple warns them about how hellish the Underworld is. Then they go there and it's basically Storybrooke with a red filter. He talks about how much he and Regina will suffer because of how many people they sent there. In the next episode, she goes there and just runs into the father she killed, and he apologizes to her for failing her, and she gets to watch the other person she killed that she runs into get sent into hell. Not that scary.

Spoiler

And, for the whole arc, Rumple running into the people he's killed only amounts to him getting to kill them again, while Regina gets reconciled with the few victims she runs into. I don't think either of them ever run into anyone who wants payback or stands a chance at it. So, not quite as advertised.

It's bothering me more and more as time goes by that Hook had a hook in the Underworld. This shouldn't be his physical body, which is either buried in Storybrooke or in the morgue in Storybrooke. It's a manifestation of his soul. He wasn't born with a hook for a hand, so why would his soul have a hook? Does this mean that someone made a paraplegic by a car accident would be in a wheelchair in the afterlife? It gets really icky if you start thinking down that path.

But, in general, I don't think they really thought through their depiction of the Underworld and how it worked. There's already the difference between what was described before and what we ended up seeing. The "unfinished business" thing was awfully vague. The other destinations weren't supposed to be "heaven" or "hell" based on how good a person was but rather whether or not they were actually ready to move on, and yet the imagery was falling into flames or rising into clouds. And there's the ickiness that the one guy was forced into it. It wasn't like he was trying to move on before he was ready. Cora just threw him out there to give Regina a demonstration. So that guy was sentenced to eternal torment because of what Cora did?

It's funny, I was thinking while watching that it's hard to believe Neal didn't have any unfinished business, but when I re-read the thread, I saw that I was arguing that Neal probably was okay when he died because he had come to a kind of peace. I don't know now. On the one hand, he died while trying to do anything it took to get to Henry again, and yet he never saw him again and the only thing he accomplished was giving Zelena a pet Dark One, but he did seem at peace when he died.

But then by that standard, would Hook have had unfinished business? He was initially willing to die. He asked to be allowed to die. He was okay with having had the chance to turn his life around, and he'd lived long enough. He was forced into being a Dark One and still managed to save everyone from the Darkness, dying as a willing sacrifice to save everyone and end the Darkness. He and Emma exchanged "I love yous" just before he died. That would seem to be someone who would get the express train to the Good Place. Was he sent to the Underworld just because he'd been a Dark One (even though he didn't want to be) or because Rumple hijacked his sacrifice? I know the real answer is because of the plot. But if our standard is "unfinished business," it seems like he came closer than Neal did.

I'm just glad I don't live in their universe and have very different beliefs about the afterlife because their situation is awfully bleak and capricious.

[Camera One]

I guess I give them kudos for the whole Underbrooke idea, which managed to inject something fresh into an old setting in the show's fifth season.  It was a clever way to bring back cameos.  Of course, none of the potential was met after the initial intriguing start.

With who has unfinished business and who doesn't, it's hard not to see the men behind the curtain and not make it obvious that it was all based on actor availability or writer preferences for who they wanted to explore (and who they didn't).  

Spoiler

I mean, Hades creating Underbrooke because of his undying love for Zelena?  Give me a freak'in break.  I guess the "unfinished business" nonsense was topped in Season 6 with the even more nonsensical "untold stories".  At least we can say this show constantly tops itself.

But then again, this was the last arc where there was any freshness at all that didn't feel completely like retread.  

Edited May 11, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

45 minutes ago, Camera One said:

With who has unfinished business and who doesn't, it's hard not to see the men behind the curtain and not make it obvious that it was all based on actor availability or writer preferences for who they wanted to explore (and who they didn't).  

I think it's mostly writer preferences. Given Rumple and Regina's track records, if they really wanted them to deal with their histories the way Rumple made it sound like they would in the previous episode, they could have cast anyone as Random Peasant #4587 Rumple Turned into a Bug and Squashed for Looking at Him the Wrong Way and Random Peasant #2836 Whose Hovel Regina Torched with a Fireball Because Her Soup Was Cold at Lunch That Day.

And there's the writers' gnat-like attention span

Spoiler

that made them almost instantly lose interest in the idea of Rumple and Regina having any kind of reckoning or even really Operation Firebird so they could mostly focus on Zelena and on redeeming Cora. Even with Hook, who has his own body count, the only reckoning from his past was something his brother did where he was completely innocent and unaware.

[KingOfHearts]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

He talks about how much he and Regina will suffer because of how many people they sent there. In the next episode, she goes there and just runs into the father she killed, and he apologizes to her for failing her, and she gets to watch the other person she killed that she runs into get sent into hell. Not that scary.

Where's Percival? Geppetto's parents? No one even bothers to ask about Graham, but Neal is the true hero we gotta find ASAP. I would've been fine if Graham came back, just recast.

Spoiler

That's what they did for Gaston. Granted, we didn't see much of him before.

But it probably would've went like this:

Graham: "Emma! You have to know - Regina murdered me! It was her all along!
Emma: "Oh, I know."
Graham: "You know?! Then why are you still with her? What about Henry?!"
Emma: "Oh, he's fine. Regina's a hero now and we're besties."
Graham: "She forced me to be her sex slave for over three decades!"
Emma: "She's changed! She doesn't kill people at the DMV any more."
Graham: "She sent me to murder your mother!"
Snow: "Oh hey, Graham. Thanks for showing Regina that letter! I think it really helped her see the light!"
Regina: "What letter?"
Graham: "You mean the one she threw into the fire??"
Regina: "Oh yeah, I hated that letter. So condescending."
Snow: "I'm sorry, Regina! I should've considered your feelings!"
Graham: "Honestly, you guys - I'm pretty sure you're the ones who've been living in hell, not me."

Edited May 11, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

I still find this to be such an odd episode. As a mid-season premiere it was seriously lacking in any really interesting long term story arcs. As the celebration of the show's 100th episode, it was a dud. A slow character study for Regina that lacked action or any of the fun of the show's early run isn't the way to kick off the half season. Why not have this be an episode with characters working together to get to the Underworld? Make it more difficult to get there beyond a simple boat ride and feature more action. 

The writers were touting this as a huge thing and were super proud of it. It's just not very good or interesting or memorable. I remember even many of the more positive members of the press being pretty bemused after seeing the premiere. Maybe I should take this as further evidence of the writers epic love for Regina that they devoted the 100th episode to her and didn't seem to understand that this wasn't what anyone would want or expect from a landmark episode.

[tennisgurl]

Its so weird to think that this is a 100 episode, as it is so nothing special. We get another Regina love fest, with all the classic Regina tropes (kills random people, feels sorry for herself, crazy eyes, people telling her the blindingly obvious and she ignores them), Emma, our actual lead, is hardly around, and while we do get to see some old characters, which is very 100th episode, it never feels like a celebration of the shows history, its just another season premiere, and not a super exciting one either. Its not that exciting or interesting or set apart, and of course, its all about Regina, our true hero. Of course A&E assume he would want to just celebrate Regina if we celebrate the show.

Of course Regina gets to the underworld, and she never has to face any former victims (beside the snitch guy who dies instantly) or deal with her murderous rampages, she just gets closure with her dad, who is also totally cool with her murdering him for petty revenge. Of course, her actually seeing her victims would probably just be even more depressing, where they all either have to apologize to her (I should never have gotten married in any place where it could possibly be your woods!) or they get re-killed if they dont forgive her instantly and everyone will cheer over their corpse. 

I do like creepy Storybrooke though, and it is cool seeing some old characters, especially James. I give Josh credit, he really seems like a different guy when he plays James as opposed to Charming, I knew who he was right away even before he started acting sleazy. And Cora becoming a millers daughter again is a very fitting punishment for her. 

Edited May 18, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Shanna Marie]

I think I enjoyed it a bit more having forgotten that it was a milestone episode and without the anticipation of waiting for months. It seems to be a bit tacky to make the 100th episode that's being treated like a major milestone be a character centric rather than more of an ensemble piece. And it's one of the problems of their centric format that it doesn't really allow for follow-up on the story. The previous one was more of a Hook centric, so this one can't be, but that means that they skip entirely over Hook's arrival in the Underworld and what happens to him -- Hades capturing him, getting into why Hades is torturing him, etc. We don't get to see him react to being dead and finding himself in the Underworld. Does he already know Rumple hijacked his sacrifice? This fairly major event happened, and we barely follow up on it other than the plot event of them going to the Underworld and asking one person about him because we have to focus instead on Regina's story.

[Camera One]

Aside from wanting to focus on Regina, I think they wanted to keep Hook's fate a bit of a mystery.  They also wanted to keep Hades and the whole Underworld mysterious too.  The premiere was probably meant to be a taste of this new "realm", to get you intrigued about this place they're in.  

Spoiler

I suppose they could have done a flashback to when Hook first got to the Underworld, but I don't know how interesting that would have been.  His conversations with Hades were pretty pointless... was there any reason why Hades singled him out for special punishment?  Closer to the end of the season, they did show Arthur's reactions to finding out he was dead.

Edited May 19, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

On 5/19/2019 at 12:56 AM, Camera One said:

Aside from wanting to focus on Regina, I think they wanted to keep Hook's fate a bit of a mystery.  They also wanted to keep Hades and the whole Underworld mysterious too.

Ah, yes, surprise is the only thing that's of any value in storytelling. It's more valuable than learning what's going on with the characters or seeing them react to major events.

I was thinking about how this might have been structured in a novel, and I suppose the "centrics" work like the point of view changes in the Song of Ice and Fire books, where, say, we'd end with a cliffhanger from Emma's POV, then spend a chapter in Regina's POV, then go to maybe someone else's POV before eventually getting back to Emma. But in that case, we'd still pick up with what's going on with Emma when we get back to her rather than skipping ahead, and we wouldn't skip what's happening to Hook. The problem with this show is that they have something major happen to a character in their centric, then do another character's centric, but then never really deal with the aftermath of the first character because after the next round of centrics everything has moved on by the time we get back to the first character. It's like everyone else's life gets put on hold while we deal with one character's story, and there's no real narrative flow.

But I think they could have done something with Hook without giving away all the surprises -- we don't see him arriving in Underbrook, but rather he shows up in the caves below, which is a more traditional underworld representation. He doesn't run into Hades himself, so he can remain a surprise, but he gets grabbed by some henchmen. That way we could see Hook's immediate response to his after-death fate and set up that he might be in some peril, which would have increased the tension for the other plot. It's even more important that the others don't take Cora's warning and leave if we know that Hook's in danger.

Though there we still have the problem that they haven't really defined what's going on. This all has to be happening to Hook's soul because his body is either in a coffin or in the morgue in Storybrooke. So is his soul being physically tortured? Is that going to leave scars on his soul?

Spoiler

And, of course, we never actually learn why he's being tortured other than to provide a shocking moment.

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 5/11/2019 at 2:24 PM, Shanna Marie said:

It was highly amusing watching this episode right after the previous one rather than after a months-long break. In the previous one, Rumple warns them about how hellish the Underworld is. Then they go there and it's basically Storybrooke with a red filter. He talks about how much he and Regina will suffer because of how many people they sent there. In the next episode, she goes there and just runs into the father she killed, and he apologizes to her for failing her, and she gets to watch the other person she killed that she runs into get sent into hell. Not that scary.

  Reveal spoiler

And, for the whole arc, Rumple running into the people he's killed only amounts to him getting to kill them again, while Regina gets reconciled with the few victims she runs into. I don't think either of them ever run into anyone who wants payback or stands a chance at it. So, not quite as advertised.

It's bothering me more and more as time goes by that Hook had a hook in the Underworld. This shouldn't be his physical body, which is either buried in Storybrooke or in the morgue in Storybrooke. It's a manifestation of his soul. He wasn't born with a hook for a hand, so why would his soul have a hook? Does this mean that someone made a paraplegic by a car accident would be in a wheelchair in the afterlife? It gets really icky if you start thinking down that path.

But, in general, I don't think they really thought through their depiction of the Underworld and how it worked. There's already the difference between what was described before and what we ended up seeing. The "unfinished business" thing was awfully vague. The other destinations weren't supposed to be "heaven" or "hell" based on how good a person was but rather whether or not they were actually ready to move on, and yet the imagery was falling into flames or rising into clouds. And there's the ickiness that the one guy was forced into it. It wasn't like he was trying to move on before he was ready. Cora just threw him out there to give Regina a demonstration. So that guy was sentenced to eternal torment because of what Cora did?

It's funny, I was thinking while watching that it's hard to believe Neal didn't have any unfinished business, but when I re-read the thread, I saw that I was arguing that Neal probably was okay when he died because he had come to a kind of peace. I don't know now. On the one hand, he died while trying to do anything it took to get to Henry again, and yet he never saw him again and the only thing he accomplished was giving Zelena a pet Dark One, but he did seem at peace when he died.

But then by that standard, would Hook have had unfinished business? He was initially willing to die. He asked to be allowed to die. He was okay with having had the chance to turn his life around, and he'd lived long enough. He was forced into being a Dark One and still managed to save everyone from the Darkness, dying as a willing sacrifice to save everyone and end the Darkness. He and Emma exchanged "I love yous" just before he died. That would seem to be someone who would get the express train to the Good Place. Was he sent to the Underworld just because he'd been a Dark One (even though he didn't want to be) or because Rumple hijacked his sacrifice? I know the real answer is because of the plot. But if our standard is "unfinished business," it seems like he came closer than Neal did.

I'm just glad I don't live in their universe and have very different beliefs about the afterlife because their situation is awfully bleak and capricious.

Maybe it has something to do with watching this episode back-to-back with the previous one, but I had the same question...Actually read through this whole thread to see if anyone else had mentioned it. I'm confused, still, and wonder what I missed. 

Rumple spoke at some length of the tortures in store in the Underworld, and how he was one of the very, very few who had ever been able to come back from there. So was he in the Underworld, or in the Hellfire afterlife? Because I don't see anyone suffering much more in the Underworld than the "real" one (well, other than Hook, whatever his situation turns out to be). Granted, they all look a bit more gloomy, but it's hardly a concentration camp, much less unspeakable suffering. As far as I understand, from what we have been shown, though, once someone passes from the Underworld to either the "good" or "bad" place, that's absolutely permanent. But I might have missed something if there was actually some indication that Rumple actually came back from Hell. 

Plus, who or what actually decides what one's ultimate destination will be? Cora certainly wanted Henry Sr to burn, but some higher power seemed to decide otherwise. And did she have some sort of judicial power in the afterworld, or did she just act as though she did. Does Hades decide? He seemed rather disinterested overall, except for meting out Cora's punishment. But as fitting as that seemed, I still have to wonder why he didn't just cast her into the everlasting fire. As bad as being a miller's daughter might be, it's still far nicer a life than eternal flames. 

And, while I'm at it, I will have to agree with those few people who totally didn't mind the scene with Neal. As someone said upthread (much better than I'm about to paraphrase it, no doubt), Neal was a huge part of Emma's life for whatever time, and while he caused her a lot of grief, he also gave her the first real love she had ever felt, and had come back into her life in, overall, a somewhat positive way, then capped it off by sacrificing himself. There was no way that she wasn't going to react with tenderness toward this unexpected meeting. Heck, even if she HAD kissed him, I'd chalk it up to an understandable surge of emotion having nothing to do with her feelings for Hook. It can happen. Besides, I'm probably the only person here who actually does kind of like NealFire. His face just looks more kind than otherwise to me, despite his history.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Jynnan tonnix

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

Rumple spoke at some length of the tortures in store in the Underworld, and how he was one of the very, very few who had ever been able to come back from there. So was he in the Underworld, or in the Hellfire afterlife? Because I don't see anyone suffering much more in the Underworld than the "real" one (well, other than Hook, whatever his situation turns out to be). Granted, they all look a bit more gloomy, but it's hardly a concentration camp, much less unspeakable suffering. As far as I understand, from what we have been shown, though, once someone passes from the Underworld to either the "good" or "bad" place, that's absolutely permanent. But I might have missed something if there was actually some indication that Rumple actually came back from Hell. 

You'd think he would have commented about being in a different place if he'd been in the Hellfire afterlife, was expecting that, and found himself in another version of Storybrooke. Then again, you'd think if he'd been in Underbrooke that he would have told them about that, unless maybe he was trying to scare them by making it sound horrible, hoping that would dissuade them and he wouldn't have to go.

4 hours ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

Plus, who or what actually decides what one's ultimate destination will be? Cora certainly wanted Henry Sr to burn, but some higher power seemed to decide otherwise. And did she have some sort of judicial power in the afterworld, or did she just act as though she did. Does Hades decide?

It seems to be some kind of cosmic judgment and Hades seems to have little control, or else you'd think Henry Sr. would have burned. Hades mostly doesn't want anyone to move on from the Underworld, regardless of where they're going. He wants to keep them all under his control.

4 hours ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

As bad as being a miller's daughter might be, it's still far nicer a life than eternal flames. 

The weird thing is, being a miller's daughter wouldn't have been all that bad. Not as good as being a princess or queen, but the miller would have been solidly middle class among the peasants. He offered a service everyone needed and likely owned the mill, and they would never have gone hungry. That was basically a very early form of being a factory owner. Cora would have been the wealthiest girl in the village, aside from the lord/squire/gentry. Maybe that was what sparked her social climbing. She had enough money and status to have a taste of it and wanted more.