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S03.E07: XXV

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It was intense as hell and as always !!!!!!

 

That show is wonderful !

 

I'll try to come up with a more constructive post in times to come ! Now, I'm too much like... woaaaaah !! 

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I don't like Jack and Anne much individually but together I really like their relationship together. It's kinda cute how Jack equates Anne pretty much as his wife. His crazy, murderous, wife. aw. Although I guess Anne isn't as crazy as I thought she was. She's the one who was smart enough to just want to go off to wherever with the gold, everyone else has these grandiose plans for Nassau and legacy that really don't have a great chance of working out.

 

I'm pretty sure Eleanor is lying through her teeth about having real feelings for Rogers, or at least, about her motivations being mostly about her feelings for him, which is too bad because I like them together a lot. I like Rogers a lot in general, actual. I kind of wish Rogers would throw in his lot with the pirates because I enjoy both him and the pirates. I think I like Rogers partly because I read up on him and he's not/wasn't exactly

a rank and file minion either.

 

I'm not positive about this, but didn't as often as not the indigenous people would get the diseases that were brought over, almost as much as vice versa?

 

I admit I kinda liked the idea of Silver and Max as a scheming couple together but Madi is growing on me. I wonder if she and Eleanor will meet again/recognize each other?

 

I didn't miss Mapleton but I enjoyed seeing her again. I like how Max was like, "yeah, I still don't trust you though."

 

I'm kind of amazed that Flint manages to convince the Queen to go along with all his vague-ass plans, but I guess she really doesn't have a lot of options.

 

And to focus a moment on shiny things, I loved Eleanor's blue dress. The shade of blue was so vibrant. Ben Gunn should wear it, it would go well with his eyes, heh.

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OMG that was soooooo good!   I actually cheered out loud four times:

 

1. When John declared he would lead the landing team.

2. When he said "I'm John Silver and I've got a long fucking memory."

3. When Rogers dropped trow.  I had just said "Hey, come on!  Drop those drawers.  Fair is fair."  They heard me!

4. The very end.  I love it when they surprise me and THAT surprised me.  I kept waiting for the coach to blow up but no, they're being smarter.

 

Whooo Hooo!  I'm loving this show.  Off to watch it a second time.

Edited by WatchrTina
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Damn this was a good episode!

 

I loved seeing Abbe again - I actually glimpsed her serving tables last week but forgot to mention it in my post; but it made me wonder if she would pop up again. And of course she was Mr Scott's informant. Makes perfect sense!

 

Interesting that Eleanor and Madi knew each other as children - I wonder if they'll meet up again. And I love that Max has essentially taken Eleanor's place in the story, and is struggling with the same difficulties. She's now betrayed Anne the same way Eleanor betrayed her. 

 

I still think that Eleanor might be playing Woodes. I doubt Vane has any power over her, but she had a pretty powerful bond with Flint, and I think she'd be won over by him in a second.

 

Funny how Dufresne started this show more-or-less as the audience surrogate as to how life on a pirate ship worked, only to gradually fade away and be killed off to prove a point. I imagine the necessary switching of the actor had something to do with this, but it makes you wonder what would have happened otherwise. 

 

Another thing that's fantastic about this show: there might be fewer women than men, but the ones we've got are absolutely integral to the plot. They wield different types of power, from queens to administrators to informants - right down to the whores commissioned to spread rumours among their clients. 

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Really surprised myself, because I very much like Woodes and Eleanor.  I haven't been over the moon about any of Eleanor's pairings in the show thus far but for some reason, her current "Ship" has breathed new life into her character for me.  I believe she likes Woodes but he's definitely more fond of her then vice versa.  Eleanor may WANT to change but whether she can is a whole separate matter.   I think she'll always choose ambition/power and one day it will probably be to her sorrow but that's how she's wired.

 

I also really like Madi and hope 

she turns out to be Silver's heard of but never seen wife described in the future.

 She and Silver have a nice dynamic and she has a rigid practicality to her that plays nicely against Silver's being Silver.

 

His execution of Dufresne was especially gruesome.  I had to look away.

 

I also enjoy whenever the writers allow Max to be fallible.  She doesn't know everything and not everyone is under her thrall.  That Old Madame has been playing just about every side in this game, she's fallen and she's managed to claw her way back.  I like that.   And she may prove herself a match for Max in the wheel and deal department.   Youth and ambition is nothing in the face of Age coupled with practiced treachery.

 

Liked the match off between Woodes and Flint.   

 

Awesome episode as always.

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I have never posted here before, but have to after tonight. Damn, was Dufresne's death was brutal. I had to look away. He should never gone there with Silver. I didn't even know that Silver had that in him. Flint must be rubbing off on him. 

 

I love Flint. He is mesmerizing, charismatic, and scary as hell. I get how he has held all those men in thrall and even convinced the Queen of his insane plan. 

 

Eleanor is definitely playing Rogers. The only thing she loves is Nassau which is why she will always choose Flint.

 

I'm not positive about this, but didn't as often as not the indigenous people would get the diseases that were brought over, almost as much as vice versa?

 

The diseases that the Europeans brought to the Americas, primarily smallpox, but also measles, influenza, whooping cough, and the plague killed millions of indigenous peoples, some before they ever laid eyes on an European. In his book, Guns, Germs, and Steel, Jared Diamond writes about the well accepted hypothesis that it was European diseases that conquered the Americas and defeated their peoples, not their weapons. However, some diseases from the New World did take their toll on Europeans. For example, yellow fever brought to the West indies by enslaved Africans killed tens of thousands of Europeans throughout the West Indies and in the Americas. It wiped out some colonies and forcing their remaining occupants to return to Europe. 

Edited by SimoneS
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3. When Rogers dropped trow.  I had just said "Hey, come on!  Drop those drawers.  Fair is fair."  They heard me!

 

Hee. I thought the same thing. 

 

I loved seeing Abbe again - I actually glimpsed her serving tables last week but forgot to mention it in my post; but it made me wonder if she would pop up again. And of course she was Mr Scott's informant. Makes perfect sense!

 

closed caption has led me astray before, so I don't want to say it is definitely correct, but I believe it said her name is Eme.

 

Really surprised myself, because I very much like Woodes and Eleanor.  I haven't been over the moon about any of Eleanor's pairings in the show thus far but for some reason, her current "Ship" has breathed new life into her character for me.

 

I see what would draw Eleanor and Rogers to each other. Vane and Eleanor always felt pretty random to me, but then Vane's storyline in season 1 was pretty haphazard overall.

Edited by ulkis

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I don't think Eleanor is playing Rogers.  Or at the very least, I don't think she's seducing him solely to screw him over, absent any real feelings.  It doesn't fit with what the writers have been saying since even before the season began, and frankly I don't think it fits with Eleanor's character.  Yes, she plots, but we've never, that I can recall, seen her deliberately seduce or ingratiate herself with someone with the prior intent of screwing them over.  Even Vane, who she seduced with the ulterior motive of screwing over Blackbeard, she had real feelings for.  Like Max is experiencing now, she betrayed friends when she felt she had to, she never went into relationships pretending to be allies while plotting to stab someone in the back.  Her face when she betrayed Max in season 1, and Vane in season 2 - that was not a happy face.  She wasn't happy about it.  The people she did outright plot against, they knew she was their enemy.  She was pretty open about wanting to fuck their shit up.  Do I think she's head over heels in love with Woodes?  No.  Do I think she will succeed in changing and stay loyal to him even if another opportunity presents itself?  IDK, we'll have to see.  But I do think she's sincere when she says she doesn't want to be the person she used to be, someone who would screw over anyone.  

 

I adored the beach scene with Flint and Woodes.  Just...gah, the parallels, the mutual understanding.  I feel like in another lifetime those two could have been good friends, but not at this point in the story.  

 

Silver has come a looooooong way since he first showed up.  His descent into villainy was inevitable, given TI, but he was so doofy - smart but doofy- when the show started that I had trouble seeing how he would get there.  Silly me for doubting.  

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This can be said for Rogers and Eleanor.  It makes the Vane and Eleanor romance look more chemistry laden in comparison and it makes the Max and Eleanor romance look positively through the roof.  I have never been big on the two people are good looking and that is all romances and Rogers and Eleanor fit that to a tee.  There is no spark there. 

 

It is interesting some characters, such as Max, Silver or Flint, can have chemistry with anyone.  That some characters, Eleanor, Anne, or Jack, are reliant on who they are with.  Then you have a character like Rogers where all he has looks.  Too bad he is based on a real character because he is really making this show a chore when he is on screen.  He is the sort of anti-Max or anti-Silver. 

 

I agree with the desire for Max to be fallible because I feel every character should fallible.  However she has been fallible more than once so I have no comprehension why that is being treated as some anomaly. 

Edited by dohe

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I still say Eleanor is playing Rogers.  When she and Max have their heart-to-heart, Max warns her what the soldiers are saying about them and warns her that if she continues to be seen as close to Rogers it will undermine his authority.  So what does she do next?  She beds him.  And after that, she tells him how she wants to change her ways -- be trusted -- have her word means something -- and all because of how she feels about him (which totally plays to his ego.).  Sounds to me like she's trying to cement their relationship in place as a means of undermining Rogers' authority.  

 

Now can we just talk for a moment about John's confession of how GOOD it felt to turn to the dark side?  Damn.  He is getting scarier by the day.  And did you notice that it was he (and not Flint) who ordered them to make ready to longboats after he agreed to lead the landing party?  I felt the balance of power between him and Flint shift just a bit in that moment.  I think Billy felt it too and that's why the camera shifted focus from John to Billy at that point.

 

This whole episode was so beautifully shot.  Eleanor's blue dress, the waves crashing behind Flint during his tête–à–tête with Rogers on the beach, the establishing shot of the tavern when Billy and John walked in, which looked just like a painting, the softly lit naked lovers, Vane's face appearing out of the darkness when he grabbed Featherstone and coming into focus behind Anne as she stared after the departing redcoats -- all fantastic to look at.

 

Woodes Rogers has mixed feelings about being cast as the "villian" but II think it's pretty clear that this season the real villain is Spain.

Edited by WatchrTina
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That was a hell of an episode.  I loved that the women were moving all the bigger plot points.  I really loved the entire foray onto Nassau beginning with Billy sagely pointing out to Flint it's not really much of a ghost story for the back from the dead character to show up and tell everyone to be afraid of him so he should send Silver instead.  Call me a sadist, but I could probably watch Silver drive his peg leg through Dufresne's skull for hours.  Dufresne not surprisingly completely underestimated that the Silver he was facing now was not the squirrelly little Silver we first met and kept running his mouth and that was that.  Nice little thrown in detail that Madi and Eleanor knew each other as children, so we know that will be coming back up again at some point.

 

The Woodes-Flint meetup was everything I hoped it would be.  You could see that it momentarily threw Flint for Woodes to start off talking about Thomas Hamilton and how he knows what his original role was in all this but he recovered well and clearly thought he had a good handle on the conversation.  It wasn't until Woodes basically echoed Flint's "Everyone's a monster to someone ... I will be yours" from Charles Town with his own "If you would name me villain, I will play the part" though that Flint realized he was matched and there was nothing left to say.

 

Silver acknowledging how good it felt to embrace his darkness was a thing of beauty.  He's fast becoming Treasure Island Silver now.

Edited by nodorothyparker
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closed caption has led me astray before, so I don't want to say it is definitely correct, but I believe it said her name is Eme.

 

Yes, it is Eme. My bad.

 

Also, I don't think that Eleanor is seducing Woodes with the sole intention of screwing him over: she's just hedging her bets. Right now he's the only thing keeping her alive, and she knows that should they not get the Spanish gold back they're BOTH screwed, so she's trying to make herself as secure as possible. 

 

Also, didn't Woodes answer in the affirmative when Jack asked him if he had a wife? Eleanor wouldn't give two shits about adultery, but I still wonder if she's aware of his marital status. Probably since he's wearing a wedding ring, but odd that it's never been discussed before.

Edited by Ravenya003
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I was wondering if they would bring up his wife. Historically he did have one but they were permanently separated by the time he was governor so theoretically she should have no bearing on the story. It would have been easy enough to just exclude her. I wonder if they just used her so Jack could make his point, or if she'll come up again.

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I don't think Woodes marriage would have been discussed; many marriages at that time were more about money and position than love.

 

His execution of Dufresne was especially gruesome.  I had to look away.

 

 

Actually, that scene wasn't gruesome in the traditional sense.   You only see Silver's peg driving into Dufresne's head for a fraction of a second.  What made that scene chilling was the blood spattering on Silver's face; the sound of his peg slamming, the reactions of everybody in the tavern and that the scene was SILENT, the music only started when Silver spoke again.  There was something else that struck me about that scene, I was discussing it this morning with someone on another board and both of us felt that the scene was rather orgasmic and it was interesting when he talked to Flint later and said he couldn't believe how good it felt.  To me the scene was a release, I am sure that Silver has a lot of anger inside him; think about it, he lost his leg, he gave up his claim to the gold, feels useless, had doucebags like Dufresne calling him an invalid, I think he just got it out and that's why it felt good.  Also interesting that when Madi saw him right after she asked him what happened and he said, "I'm fine."  She was like, yeah, I've heard that before.  

 

When I first started watching this show in 2014, I didn't like John Silver, he was too pretty, too goofy, I was like, THAT'S John Silver?  WTF?  Well I was totally wrong, Luke Arnold has been slaying it this season.  Silver was a guy who never wanted to be a pirate in the first place, and has completely embraced that lifestyle.

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So what're the chances Madi winds up playing the role of the other female pirate who's name escapes me?

 

Eleanor playing Woody in my mind depends entirely on whether them screwing was a flashback or whether it literally happened right after Max's speech. I mean it looked like it happened right after Max's speech but yah never know.

 

I like Woody. I didn't think I'd be so fond of him but he's pretty cool. He also looks good naked.

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So what're the chances Madi winds up playing the role of the other female pirate who's name escapes me?

Mary Reade. There is more speculation that Max will be Mary Reade.

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I was discussing it this morning with someone on another board and both of us felt that the scene was rather orgasmic and it was interesting when he talked to Flint later and said he couldn't believe how good it felt. 

Well, he did peg someone while getting head at the same time.

he gave up his claim to the gold,

To be fair, haven't they all given up their claim to the gold at this point? At least temporarily? Except for the black stones that Woodes plans to give to the Spanish along with Jack, the Urca treasure is not coming back unless the Spanish are keeping it nearby for some reason.

 

What is the plan, exactly? I think that I may have missed something.

 

1) Anne turns over (supposedly) the rest of the Urca treasure, appearing to hold up her side of the deal.

2) Woodes is forced to break his part of the deal, and transports Jack to the Spanish.

3) Flint and Co. paint Woodes as a man whose word means nothing and turn the former pirates against his governorship.

4) Flint and Co. rescue Jack and maybe take whatever that they can find of the Urca treasure.

5) The Spanish attack Nassau as the former pirates rise up against Woodes.

6) ????

7) Profit.

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None of the plans offered in this episode felt fully sketched out or seemed to make a lot of sense but they got all our important players on the same side, which I think was really the point.  I did love the Maroon queen's raised eyebrow at asking question after question about Flint's plan only to get "I don't know" over and over as well as everybody's faces at the end as they seemed to be realizing they'd been painted into a corner of having Charles Vane, whose specialties include all sorts of mayhem but not quite so much of the deep thinking, doing the strategizing for them.

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I've been rethinking Eleanor and Woodes and whether I think she's playing him.

 

I think I would find it most interesting, and more accurate to the complexity of human nature, if all of our theories are true.  If she's trying to secure a position for herself AND she's trying to change to not be the person Vane accused her of being last season AND she's starting to develop genuine feelings of fondness for Rogers.  

 

The thing about the conversation she had with Max, Eleanor had already expressed similar fears about their partnership to Woodes before it ever began, and he dismissed them.  He didn't care what people said.  Now Max has confirmed that people are talking, that their partnership is becoming an issue, and Eleanor has to decide what to do with that information.  People are already talking, could they really even put that to rest now?  How?  She could abdicate her position as his advisor, that might stop that talking, but it might not, and Woodes would have lost a valuable asset, because whatever else she is to him Eleanor absolutely is valuable as his advisor.  And Eleanor would have lost her position of influence.  While I do think she's genuine in wanting to change and not wanting to throw over anyone for the sake of ambition, that doesn't mean she wants to be powerless and out of the action, so to speak.  So what's the other option?  Go all in.  Woodes has already said he wants her council despite what others say about it, so throw all in with him, make a commitment to him, and deal with the consequences together as a unified front.  

 

It directly contrasts what's happening to Max.  Eleanor is trying to become less like Old Eleanor, because Old Eleanor wound up in a jail cell awaiting execution.  Max is becoming more like Old Eleanor.  What I got from her scene with Eleanor, and her scene at the end with Madame, is that she's starting to view any genuine relationship as a liability.  Holding power means screwing over the people you care about, so don't care about them if you want to hold it.  I don't think she's fully detached herself emotionally yet, but I think she thinks she needs to.  Whereas Eleanor has decided her best course forward is to do the opposite - find a partner and stick with him, make herself invaluable to him, and deal with the burden of leadership together.  It gives her a position of power AND accomplishes her goal of personal growth and change.  

 

And on a related but different note, it's always fascinating to me how subjective chemistry is.  I respect the view of those who don't think they have chemistry, but I could not disagree more and I have watched their scene on a loop since yesterday morning (thank you On Demand).  Also Rogers' naked butt is currently my tumblr icon.  

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Chemistry is subjective.  I am not as drawn to aesthetic chemistry on it's own.  Some viewers are and that Rogers is good looking would enter the equation more for them.  Rogers does have a nice butt but to me that is not something that would change my mind in believing Eleanor and him don't have chemistry.  Maybe the show realizes that there is no spark based on personalities which is why they are making the priority to sell it on how good looking they are.  The sex scene, which seemed based more in how hot their bodies are, seemed to be almost fishing for that audience which is more interested in looks than personality.  It felt more like Cinemax and less like Blue Valentine.

 

This does not mean Eleanor or Rogers wouldn't have chemistry with someone else.  That other person needs to be a charismatic character.  The reason Max, Flint and Silver work opposite anyone in their sequences is heavy charisma.  That is why scenes between Max and Silver in season 1 and  Flint and Silver this season are practically combustible.  That is why Vane pops on the screen opposite Flint and why there is more palpable chemistry between Max and Eleanor talking about a chair than Eleanor and Rogers in front of the bed.  When Flint sat with Rogers at the end, there was a red hot searing intensity that Flint provided that made me think lets have them hook up. 

Edited by dohe

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Wow. That was one hell of an episode. I actually yelled at the TV when it ended..."you can't leave it there!"

Long John Silver is in the house! It amazes me how much that character has changed. I honestly did not like him in S1 or half of S2. I am loving him this season.

Flint is awesome as always, it's funny in S1 I loved Jack didn't like Anne and hated Vane. No I still love Jack am indifferent to Anne but I'm loving Vane. I used to love the Vane/Jack and Jack/Anne dynamics (mostly for Jack) but I think pairing Flint/Vane and to the same extent Flint/Silver adds so much to the characters.

I'm loving Flint still, there's something so charismatic about him and Toby Stephens is amazing in the role. Someone needs to explain to me how this show doesn't get writing and acting nominations because it's damn good.

Back to the episode. I thought for Sure Vane was going to attack the carriage as it departed i was surprised to see that his plan was to let it go in exchange for a chance to get both Jack and the whole treasure back. Although i was a little confused are they talking about just Anne/Max's share of the jewels or did it include the gold recovered from the fort?

Loved the Max/Eleanor scenes, it's amazing to see how far both characters have come and how Max realized that she's now become Eleanor. I love the theme being shown by paralleling Flint/Silver and Eleanor/Max.

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What is the plan, exactly? I think that I may have missed something.

 

1) Anne turns over (supposedly) the rest of the Urca treasure, appearing to hold up her side of the deal.

2) Woodes is forced to break his part of the deal, and transports Jack to the Spanish.

3) Flint and Co. paint Woodes as a man whose word means nothing and turn the former pirates against his governorship.

4) Flint and Co. rescue Jack and maybe take whatever that they can find of the Urca treasure.

5) The Spanish attack Nassau as the former pirates rise up against Woodes.

6) ????

7) Profit.

From the way Flint was talking, it sounds like they're going to take the treasure to finance an attack on Nassau.  I can't be certain but my speculation is that it might come down to the treasure or Nassau.  For instance, in exchange for the treasure, they want Spain to call in the loans they made to Rogers which would undermine his mission. 

 

Chemistry is subjective.  I am not as drawn to aesthetic chemistry on it's own.  Some viewers are and that Rogers is good looking would enter the equation more for them. 

It is but I think assuming that people who see chemistry see it simply because of "aesthetic chemistry" is mistaken.  Pretty much everyone on this show is good looking and I don't look at the two actors and immediately think they'd have more chemistry than two other actors.  I see chemistry between Eleanor and Woodes and I couldn't care less about seeing his ass (other than for equality of nudity sake.)  Their chemistry is quiet but it comes from the way the characters interact and the actors.  No show gives two people a love scene like that if they think the couple is displaying zero chem.  I don't crazy ship them but I enjoy them.  I'll be said when they're over.  And they will be over.  I think Eleanor likes him but ultimately, she cares about Nassau more. 

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Eleanor's true love is Nassau, which is also Max's true love now.

 

On Twitter last night someone mentioned how Flints plans keep getting more and more bizarre, another person said that soon Flint will tell everybody that they need to fight on the surface of Mars and everybody will agree!

 

Woodes and Eleanor bored me to tears, I was surprised Eleanor didn't fall asleep during sex because Woodes comes off like Wonder bread with mayonnaise on top, a glass of milk and a slice of vanilla cake.  But, that said I totally get Eleanor's point; previously she's fallen for bad boys/bad girls and she wants to fall for someone more appropriate; right now Woodes is that guy.

 

Long John Silver is in the house! It amazes me how much that character has changed. I honestly did not like him in S1 or half of S2. I am loving him this season.

 

You and me both.  In the first season I just wanted someone to kick the shit out of him, he was so annoying; but I too am loving him this season, it's as if he's grown up.  I thought the scene on the ship was interesting, Madi felt that someone was checking her out, she looks up and it's Silver.  OMG.   I totally get their attraction to each other:  Madi is probably the only woman who didn't recoil in horror at the sight of Silver's stump, her reaction was more, "Dude, you have to take care of that shit, like now and stop acting like a goddamn baby," which was what Silver needed to hear, she was concerned for him.  To Madi, Silver represents the world outside of her small island, the world her father knows, a world that she wants to explore.  So to me, I think that it's more than a physical attraction.  

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I give Woodes credit for his restraint with how he dealt with Flint. When he mentioned Thomas, I thought for sure he was going to taunt James about the rumors of their affair. He must have heard them. Instead he calmly made his point that he is just fulfilling Thomas' wishes. Too bad Flint is too far gone to walk away and accept the pardons for himself and all his men.

 

Flint looks menacing, sexy, and hot in his black outfit, but it cracks me up how inappropriate it is to wear in the Caribbean. He must be boiling and sweating buckets.

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I thought for Sure Vane was going to attack the carriage as it departed i was surprised to see that his plan was to let it go in exchange for a chance to get both Jack and the whole treasure back. Although i was a little confused are they talking about just Anne/Max's share of the jewels or did it include the gold recovered from the fort?

I too was waiting for that attack and was delighted to be surprised.  My take is that Rogers is going to hand over the jewels and Jack to the Spanish.  The Spanish are planing to transport them by caravan to wherever the rest of the gold & jewels are (on a Man O' War I presume) and the Men of Mayhem, Flint & Vane are going to attack the caravan before it rendezvous with the main stash.  If this happens, it may get Rogers and Nassau off the hook because the loss will be suffered while the goods (and Jack) are in Spanish hands.  So maybe the mini-armada in Cuba won't be loosed upon Nassau.  But I think it WILL be loosed upon the pirates.  

 

But I agree -- it's all very confusing.  I might be wrong.

 

 

I thought for sure he was going to taunt James about the rumors of their affair.

I don't think there are rumors of his affair.  I think that was kept VERY quiet and whispers of it would have been drowned out by the very loud and deliberate rumor of an affair between Flint and Miranda, which they have pretty much confirmed by staying together all those years.  But yeah, when the first words out of Rogers mouth were Thomas's name I was as shocked as Flint looked.

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I'm totally blanking now.  How much does Eleanor really know about the whole Flint/McGraw thing?    Without going back and rewatching a fair chunk of season 2, I can't remember if she was ever told anything beyond the basic story that Flint set out the initial pardon idea with Thomas.  For example, does she even know that Flint used to be McGraw?

 

I know the official story was that McGraw was having an affair with Miranda and that's what led to Thomas' death.

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I'm totally blanking now.  How much does Eleanor really know about the whole Flint/McGraw thing?    Without going back and rewatching a fair chunk of season 2, I can't remember if she was ever told anything beyond the basic story that Flint set out the initial pardon idea with Thomas.  For example, does she even know that Flint used to be McGraw?

 

I'm pretty sure she does not know that Flint used to be McGraw. Or at least, that she didn't. I suppose it's possible now that Rogers told her.

 

I liked season 1/season 2 Silver. I liked his "what, you want me to fight?" attitude because so often on tv characters go into these crazy situations without expressing any amount of trepidation. And don't get me wrong, I want/enjoy those characters but once in a while I do like seeing more wimpy reactions, heh.

 

re: chemistry, I think chemistry is an overrated in general; I think story/dymanic is more important and I think Eleanor and Rogers have that. That said, I do think they have some chemistry, but I would be interested regardless.

 

She could abdicate her position as his advisor, that might stop that talking, but it might not

 

Yeah, unless she shipped herself away from Nassau somehow, there would probably be rumors no matter what. I'm thinking of all the times in history that women were discredited with adultery/their children being fathered by other people not their husband, even when the odds were extremely unlikely.

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I still say Eleanor is playing Rogers.  When she and Max have their heart-to-heart, Max warns her what the soldiers are saying about them and warns her that if she continues to be seen as close to Rogers it will undermine his authority.  So what does she do next?  She beds him.  And after that, she tells him how she wants to change her ways -- be trusted -- have her word means something -- and all because of how she feels about him (which totally plays to his ego.).  Sounds to me like she's trying to cement their relationship in place as a means of undermining Rogers' authority.  

This was my interpretation as well.  She needed a way to secure her position with Rogers, especially with her, "I don't want to be that way anymore" spiel.  Rogers' has been listening to her, but he he doesn't trust her, and that's what she needs.  A way in to gain that trust.  

 

As many have said, such a phenomenal episode.  Even though I knew it was coming, I whelped when Dufrense got the shit stamped out of him.  He had some nerve calling someone else barely half a man when he's been a chicken shit for most of the series.  And Silver has now become a scary ass muthafucker!  And it's awesome!

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As many have said, such a phenomenal episode.  Even though I knew it was coming, I whelped when Dufrense got the shit stamped out of him.  He had some nerve calling someone else barely half a man when he's been a chicken shit for most of the series.  And Silver has now become a scary ass muthafucker!  And it's awesome!

 

 

Every time I would see Dufresne, I would wonder why no one had killed him yet; well, it happened.

 

I was thinking about the scene after Silver stomped Dufresne, Woodes, Max and Eleanor were there.  When they mentioned John Silver had done that I wondered how long had it been since anybody on Nassau had seen Silver.  Is it possible that no one in Nassau had seen him since he lost his leg?  The reason I wonder is because Silver looks like he got some serious pirate makeover since the end of the second season.  Would Max even recognize him?  

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Also, didn't Woodes answer in the affirmative when Jack asked him if he had a wife? Eleanor wouldn't give two shits about adultery, but I still wonder if she's aware of his marital status. Probably since he's wearing a wedding ring

 

I have to think she's noticed the ring. Men wearing wedding rings was pretty rare back then.  And Eleanor's in a position where she can't afford to miss much.

 

I'm rooting for Mrs. Hudson to be Mary Reade. That would be fun.

 

God, that scene on the beach was positively Shakespearean. And beautifully shot, to boot.

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I don't think there are rumors of his affair.  I think that was kept VERY quiet and whispers of it would have been drowned out by the very loud and deliberate rumor of an affair between Flint and Miranda, which they have pretty much confirmed by staying together all those years.  But yeah, when the first words out of Rogers mouth were Thomas's name I was as shocked as Flint looked.

 

I get what you are saying, but I find that hard to believe. It is impossible that Thomas' homosexuality would be a secret in their social circles. That is the kind of gossip that his father no matter how powerful could hide. People who knew that Thomas was gay would have instantly suspected the truth when his father put about the story about him going mad over Flint and Miranda. Hard to believe Woodes hadn't heard several versions of the event including one closest to the truth. However, I am willing to accept that the cover story worked because the show is entertaining as hell. 

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I get what you are saying, but I find that hard to believe. It is impossible that Thomas' homosexuality would be a secret in their social circles.

 

 

But if it were fairly well known though I don't think Miranda would have been flipping out about it so much about them being exposed. Does anyone remember why she was worried they would be exposed? I remember her saying it was a hanging offense but I don't remember why specifically she decided to start freaking out about it being a hanging offense then.

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I just watched the episode again with headphones on and I think I'm going to revise my opinion about what is going on with Eleanor and Rogers.  When she talks to Max, Max doesn't tell her that she should distance herself from Rogers for his sake (which is what I thought the first time I watched.)  Max is actually warning Eleanor that Eleanor is likely to be hurt when Rogers figures out that the relationship threatens his authority. She is pointing out the parallel between how in Season 1 when Eleanor had to choose between Max (who was hoping to make a lot of money by helping to sell the stolen page) and Flint (from whom the page was stolen) she chose Flint because that was the choice that was in her (Eleanor's) best interest.  Despite that warning, Eleanor doubles-down by offering herself to Rogers.  I'm now open to the possibility that what she said to Rogers in bed was true -- that she really does want him to trust her and to be worthy of his trust.  I'm going to feel like such an idiot if we find out she really is just playing him for a fool. 

 

And regarding the "plan" -- I listened carefully to what Vane says at the very end of the episode.  He says "Jack and the cache are to be moved aboard a secret caravan to a ship waiting somewhere off the southern coast.  If we can intercept this caravan we can secure both the money to start our war a partner to help us fight it."  What's not clear to me is if the "caravan" will be on land or sea.

 

Elsewhere in the episode someone says that once the money and Jack are in Havana, Rogers will be off the hook. That implies that if Vane & Flint raid the caravan, Rogers (and Nassau) will still be at risk from the Spainards.

 

The other thing I noticed was that the Spanish spy tells Mrs. Hudson that it would be a good idea for Rogers to offer up Jack to placate his superiors.  But he doesn't actually know if they want or would demand Jack -- he only learns that Rogers has Jack during that conversation.  He says it would be a good idea, a smart move by Rogers to make the offer.  Then is says words to the effect of "You can tell them that Spain is demanding it if you prefer."  So that tells me that the idea of offering up Jack is really just a suggestion but he knows Mrs. Hudson is so frightened of being caught in the cross-fire of a war she'll communicate the idea as a demand if she thinks it is more likely to ensure her own safety.  I know he's playing her like a fiddle but she is also complicit in that she never tells Rogers that it was a spur-of-the-moment idea by her handler -- one that he might have been able to negotiate his way out of.  I'm not really liking Mrs. Hudson right now, though I suppose I should sympathize with her situation.

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Mary Reade. There is more speculation that Max will be Mary Reade.

 

Is there? I haven't seen it. Seems like a bit of fan fiction.

 

 

I'm totally blanking now.  How much does Eleanor really know about the whole Flint/McGraw thing?    Without going back and rewatching a fair chunk of season 2, I can't remember if she was ever told anything beyond the basic story that Flint set out the initial pardon idea with Thomas.  For example, does she even know that Flint used to be McGraw?

 

I couldn't figure out how the governor knew about Flint and Thomas Hamilton's backstory and history either. He said he heard it from Eleanor, but where did she hear it? It seems rather unlikely she would have heard about it in England while she was in prison.

Edited by Tabasco Cat

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Is there? I haven't seen it. Seems like a bit of fan fiction.

 

Not a lot of it, but I have seen one or two speculate about Max maybe being Mary Reade. I don't think it's likely myself but you never know.

 

I couldn't figure out how the governor knew about Flint and Thomas Hamilton's backstory and history either. He said he heard it from Eleanor, but where did she hear it? It seems rather unlikely she would have heard about it in England while she was in prison.

 

Eleanor could have heard it from her father, I guess. He knew a little about Miranda and Flint, I remember him talking to Miranda about it in I think maybe the third episode of the first season? Whenever it was that he was staying in her house for a bit.

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Great standoff between Flint and Rogers. I loved that scene. That Rogers led with Thomas makes me believe he knows the truth about Flint/Thomas. He went right for the jugular there and it worked but he did it in a subtle way, not openly taunting Flint with his knowledge.

 

Rogers is a smart man. All he had to do was find out that Flint was really James McGraw who once worked on the original pardons with Thomas and he did his homework from there. Don't forget that Admiral Hennessy knew about Flint and Thomas' affair, too. One conversation with him and Rogers would know all he needed at how to go after Flint -- just use Thomas.

 

I'm impressed with the transformation of Silver. He was a used car salesman at first. Now he's truly a scary pirate.

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Great standoff between Flint and Rogers. I loved that scene. That Rogers led with Thomas makes me believe he knows the truth about Flint/Thomas. He went right for the jugular there and it worked but he did it in a subtle way, not openly taunting Flint with his knowledge.

 

Rogers is a smart man. All he had to do was find out that Flint was really James McGraw who once worked on the original pardons with Thomas and he did his homework from there. Don't forget that Admiral Hennessy knew about Flint and Thomas' affair, too. One conversation with him and Rogers would know all he needed at how to go after Flint -- just use Thomas.

 

After re-watching I agree with your interpretation of the scene. Rogers brought up Thomas because he knew about the affair. It can be the only reason that he kept mentioning Thomas. It seems impossible to me that someone as affluent as Rogers who ran in the same circles as the Navy brass had not heard the rumors. I think that Rogers realized that Flint would have killed them all on the spot if he taunted him openly so he choose subtly.

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Well that was something! Something pretty damn cool!

 

I agree that Eleanore and the blue dress were amazing!

 

The scene on the beach between Flint and Woodes was the highlight of the episode -- well maybe right behind Eleanore fucking Woodes. I think those two have amazing chemistry. The way he looks at her with those hot sweeping glances. Almost like it physically hurts him to want her (Because he doesn't trust her) "Except for her" << boy those words were profound. And right afterward Eleanore professes how she wants to change and not be the person who betrays another person's trust.

 

I am interested to see where that goes because # 1 -- people don't really change. and # 2 --- Flint and Eleanore have some kind of wonderful understanding/likeness of thought/ mutual ambition and love for Nausea. I have always loved their relationship and I think when and if push comes to shove -- Nausea wins Eleanore's loyality (and by extension---Flint's)

 

I did love Max and Eleanore sharing a drink. And Max realizing that she is now in the position that Eleanore once was. After their little talk Eleanore goes right to Woodes and sleeps with him. So that made me think -- what up girl? Are you playing the Governor? Is she subtly trying to undermine his position? make his men question his actions/ motivations? and in the meantime worm her way into his affections? Like I said --- now I am even more interested to see how it all plays out.

 

Eleanore and Madi were once childhood playmates. Interesting. In the first season I didn't like Jack (or Anne) but they have grown on me and Jack and Rogers exchanges are quite amusing I must say.

 

I have liked the John Silver character from the very beginning. I always thought the "Long" in Long John Silver was an old time expression for telling tall tales -- and that's how he first started -- full of larceny. But I guess the writers have gone with the Long mean Memory meme. Got it. Anyway I like that he is embracing his dark side.

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Eleanor Guthrie one sharp cookie.  When her brain power runs out she uses her body power to get the job done with men OR woman!  Love that lady! 

Edited by gwhh
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Eleanor Guthrie one sharp cookie.  When her brain power runs out she uses her body power to get the job done!  Love that lady! 

That's what I'm saying! Work it girrrrl!

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I always thought the "Long" in Long John Silver was an old time expression for telling tall tales -- and that's how he first started -- full of larceny. But I guess the writers have gone with the Long mean Memory meme. Got it. Anyway I like that he is embracing his dark side.

 

I always thought the name was a pun on his one-legged status. "Long johns" are a type of pants worn as underwear, and to call himself Long John (singular) is a joke about how he only needs one pant-leg.

 

I don't think the nickname has actually been mentioned yet (and I'm sure I would have remembered it) but given the show's surprising fidelity to the novel's established facts, I'm sure it's just a matter of time before it's dropped.

 

The Silver might well be his real name, but I always assumed Robert Louis Stevenson meant it as a reference to his silver tongue. 

Edited by Ravenya003
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Oftentimes, a nickname like Long John was used to convey that John is actually very tall, or perversely, very not-tall. (See: Robin Hood's buddy Little John, who was not.) The casting of Arnold obfuscates this meaning,  but I offer it for what it's worth.

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Oftentimes, a nickname like Long John was used to convey that John is actually very tall, or perversely, very not-tall. (See: Robin Hood's buddy Little John, who was not.) The casting of Arnold obfuscates this meaning,  but I offer it for what it's worth.

 

Well, John Silver in TI is supposed to be tall, I believe.  Luke Arnold is only 5'9, which is taller than me, but not very tall.  No matter, he's slaying it as Silver.

 

I've often wondered if "John Silver" is even his real name.

Edited by Neurochick
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