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The Twelfth Doctor: Let's Not Argue About Numbers

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On 11/27/2018 at 7:53 PM, One4Sorrow2TooBad said:

I loved the chemistry between Matt Smith's Doctor and Clara.  That was all gone with  Capaldi 's Doctor, just wasn't going to happen like before. I think a lot of viewers missed that too. I may be wrong, but just sayin'. 

Clara was one of my all time favorite companions. I loved her with Matt Smith but I also loved her with Capaldi. I loved their cantankerous relationship -- they sounded like an old married couple They had some great conversations that were uncomfortable and yet-- truthful. I really liked that!

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I got tired of Clara and Twelve, but I still liked the stories and didn't throw a bitch fit about it every week. The actors were just fine, and the stories were fine too. I just thought Clara got way too entitled.

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15 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I got tired of Clara and Twelve, but I still liked the stories and didn't throw a bitch fit about it every week. The actors were just fine, and the stories were fine too. I just thought Clara got way too entitled.

The only companion I ever got tired of was Amy (and by extension Rory)

At first I just thought it was because she was whiny and annoying. But upon re-watch -- it was that childish opening they put on -- the raggedy man bullshit. 

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One of the things I found I didn’t like about 12 was how he seemed to be 15 steps ahead of everyone in a way that was pretty off-putting. I’m not sure I can explain it well, but It wasn’t about being smarter, it was how he seemed to revel in manipulating people like chess pieces for the lulz or something. The Zygon rebels two parter was one example, where he works to convince both sides to keep the peace (and Capaldi was fantastic with the anti-war speech), but then reveals he’s tried the scenario 15 times already. There are times where he reveals he had already worked out the problem and wasn’t in real danger but pretended to be. He manipulated Bill Potts to try to kill him in the last Monks episode and pretended to die and regenerate, but he was just testing her. The more times he did things like this, the more annoying it got

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2 hours ago, DanaK said:

He manipulated Bill Potts to try to kill him in the last Monks episode and pretended to die and regenerate, but he was just testing her.

That was the only time I really disliked him. I still don't get what the point of that was, other than to manipulate the audience. Bill had no idea what regeneration was or looked like so there was absolutely no reason for him to fake it for her. 

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Finally got around to watching Twice Upon A Time. 

It was fine. 

I liked how they worked the WWI Christmas Truce into things, but as a whole, it was... fine. 

This just confirms my thoughts that overall, Twelve was a waste of Peter Capaldi’s talents as an actor. 

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I think Capaldi's tenure was somewhat tragic, because he'd been a fan of Doctor Who since he was a kid (which made One his First Doctor), because he gave up a terrific role on The Musketeers (Richelieu) to take the part, and because he ran straight into the trope of Showrunner-Who-Falls-In-Love-With-A-Character-He-Created-Slash-Actress-He-Seems-To-Crush-On.  

I liked Clara The Impossible Girl.  I did not like Clara The Insufferable Brat.  I liked the original concept and tease of Danny Pink.  I did not like the change of course that led to his horribly pointless death.  I liked the original "ending" of Clara's arc, where the Doctor visits Old Clara.  I did not like that turning in to A Horrible Dream (With Wrinkles).

I even like that just as Eleven finished his run several thousand years old, Twelve clocks in at several billion years.  I liked his finale with River Song, and how nicely it bookended the first episode with River Song.  And I really liked the Bill arc....  That's the writing Capaldi should have been given from the beginning.

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2 hours ago, kassygreene said:

 I liked Clara The Impossible Girl.  I did not like Clara The Insufferable Brat.  I liked the original concept and tease of Danny Pink.  I did not like the change of course that led to his horribly pointless death.  I liked the original "ending" of Clara's arc, where the Doctor visits Old Clara.  I did not like that turning in to A Horrible Dream (With Wrinkles).

I even like that just as Eleven finished his run several thousand years old, Twelve clocks in at several billion years.  I liked his finale with River Song, and how nicely it bookended the first episode with River Song.  And I really liked the Bill arc....  That's the writing Capaldi should have been given from the beginning.

Along with many others, I think Clara should have left after the first season with Capaldi. However,  I never understood her love for Danny Pink. I don't think we, the audience, were ever given enough scenes with the two of them to believe the depth of emotion they were  supposed to have for each other, especially when Clara was also being shown as being willing to drop everything for the Doctor and being developed as half of "The Hybrid."  Capaldi deserved so much better than he got for most of his first two years.

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Golly, it seems the 13th Doctor isn’t the first one to garner disagreement among the fan base lol

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Yeah, it's almost like it happens literally every time. 

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8 hours ago, ganesh said:

Yeah, it's almost like it happens literally every time. 

The current one is always deemed the worst thing to ever happen to the show... until the next one.

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On 1/1/2019 at 10:07 AM, kassygreene said:

I think Capaldi's tenure was somewhat tragic, because he'd been a fan of Doctor Who since he was a kid (which made One his First Doctor), because he gave up a terrific role on The Musketeers (Richelieu) to take the part, and because he ran straight into the trope of Showrunner-Who-Falls-In-Love-With-A-Character-He-Created-Slash-Actress-He-Seems-To-Crush-On.  

I liked Clara The Impossible Girl.  I did not like Clara The Insufferable Brat.  I liked the original concept and tease of Danny Pink.  I did not like the change of course that led to his horribly pointless death.  I liked the original "ending" of Clara's arc, where the Doctor visits Old Clara.  I did not like that turning in to A Horrible Dream (With Wrinkles).

I even like that just as Eleven finished his run several thousand years old, Twelve clocks in at several billion years.  I liked his finale with River Song, and how nicely it bookended the first episode with River Song.  And I really liked the Bill arc....  That's the writing Capaldi should have been given from the beginning.

I honestly could have written this post, it's exactly how I feel. 

 

The Twelve we got in 'The Husbands of River Song' was what I wanted all along. It's one of my favorite episodes of the whole series. I also loved the season with Bill and I loved the stuff between Twelve and Missy. I didn't dislike Clara at all, even though she'll never be a favorite, until she was put with Twelve. It was so toxic and it just seemed to drag on and on. I doubt I'll ever re-watch many of those episodes and that's a damn shame as I ended up loving Twelve.

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I haven't watched that much of Doctor Who (I've watched the Capaldi era, Whittaker's first series, Series 1, and I'm currently on Series 2 with Tennent), so I may be missing something, but I don't understand why Capaldi's Doctor would become such a misanthrope and lack such an understanding of humans after being more warm and understanding about them with at least the two previous doctors. I understand that the personalities can be very different from one incarnation to another, but it's like #12 regressed or something. Given that the Doctor's memories are passed from body to body, I don't understand why it seemed like #12 forgot how to be around other people. If it was the result of PTSD or something because of surviving past his last regeneration and getting a new set, that didn't seemed to really be explained well or at all. It's like the showrunner just wanted to play with the Doctor getting real alien-y again and not worrying about it making sense

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The Doctor thought he was going to die at the end of Eleven's life, and wasn't expecting to survive the events of Time of the Doctor. He spent most of Twelve's life coming to terms with it, and thinking about what it meant to be alive when he'd prepared for death. He didn't haver a lot of time for being cuddly.

Plus. he'd been nice for two lives, it was time for a change.

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Eleven also spent a very long time on Trenzalore largely alone, and fighting nearly all of that time and talking to an Autolon head. So he hadn't been with people a lot and traveling as he likes to do. So that's going to make anyone a little cranky once you get back to civilization, and it's like, I held off the universes enemies for you people and you're complaining about it raining? Sod off. 

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I keep seeing this complaint. Too 'SJW' - what do you mean by that, exactly?

 

The use of "SJW" as a seemingly understood negative moniker has always been a head scratcher to me. There is something wrong with being concerned about social justice? Hasnt the Doctor always been an "SJW" by that definition? These days I think it says more about the people using the term than it does the people they are talking about.

The entirety of the problem with Capaldi as Doctor was Clara. If he had started out with Bill and Nardol he'd probably still be the Doctor now.

Edited by tv-talk
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On 12/12/2018 at 2:05 PM, taanja said:

The only companion I ever got tired of was Amy (and by extension Rory)

At first I just thought it was because she was whiny and annoying. But upon re-watch -- it was that childish opening they put on -- the raggedy man bullshit. 

Ha! I loved the notion she had met the Doctor as a child and then traveled with him as an adult. That was excellent writing and allowed for complex way that they viewed each other ie Smith often saw her as that little girl and she the strange man she had waited for as a kid. I thought that was a great way to quash any romantic nonsense that could have come up otherwise. The way he would kiss her on top of the head like she was a child was perfect way to NOT have any tensions given they looked like two people who should be dating.

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22 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Ha! I loved the notion she had met the Doctor as a child and then traveled with him as an adult. That was excellent writing and allowed for complex way that they viewed each other ie Smith often saw her as that little girl and she the strange man she had waited for as a kid. I thought that was a great way to quash any romantic nonsense that could have come up otherwise. The way he would kiss her on top of the head like she was a child was perfect way to NOT have any tensions given they looked like two people who should be dating.

On the one hand I agree, but on the other hand the show repeatedly teased the idea of a love triangle between the Doctor, Amy and Rory - heck, there was even a scene where Amy tried to jump the Doctor's bones - like they wanted to have their cake and eat it too. And I'd have enjoyed the 'met the Doctor as a child, then again as an adult' storyline more if Moffat hadn't repeated that same scenario multiple times - we saw it also with Madame de Pompadour and Ten (episode written by Moffat under Davies) and again with Clara, as Eleven encountered her as a child while trying to track down 'the Impossible Girl', before taking her on as an adult companion. Once would have been a lovely story - three becomes tired repetition.

Edited by Llywela
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I liked capaldi. While I at first loved the impossible girl, clara and 11 got a little too flirty and I thought having a doctor not be swayed by clara cute was a nice change.

Sonic sunglasses were just silly however.

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1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

The use of "SJW" as a seemingly understood negative moniker has always been a head scratcher to me. There is something wrong with being concerned about social justice? Hasnt the Doctor always been an "SJW" by that definition? These days I think it says more about the people using the term than it does the people they are talking about.

It's a pejorative term that means the person being accused is basically looking for things to be outraged or offended about. And you're right, the people who use the term are also the same who like to complain about things being "too PC" or are self-proclaimed "incels". It's butthurt dudes who don't know why girls don't like them so they get mad at the girls because they lack the self awareness to grow up. 

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45 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Ha! I loved the notion she had met the Doctor as a child and then traveled with him as an adult. That was excellent writing and allowed for complex way that they viewed each other ie Smith often saw her as that little girl and she the strange man she had waited for as a kid. I thought that was a great way to quash any romantic nonsense that could have come up otherwise. The way he would kiss her on top of the head like she was a child was perfect way to NOT have any tensions given they looked like two people who should be dating.

I was referring to that weird open they had during the Amy Pond years... where she recites meeting her raggedy man. Oy! So Annoying!

I was a little put off by their father/daughter dynamic -- especially when we found out River was her daughter. and the Doctor marries said daughter. Hm?

I always like to think/imagine my Doctor and whatever companion having sex in the TARDIS. Yes I do. Through time and space -- all over the place.!!!!! 

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1 hour ago, taanja said:

I always like to think/imagine my Doctor and whatever companion having sex in the TARDIS. Yes I do. Through time and space -- all over the place.!!!!! 

Alrighty then! I suppose I am the opposite, definitely think of the Doctor as a non-sexual being tho there isnt any reason for that given Gallifreans are basically just another humanoid race like all the rest. I think for young boys of my era it was more about ogling Mary Tamm and Louise Jameson while wishing you were the Doctor!

Edited by tv-talk
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the doctor has always just had this paternal role with companions that to me made any relationship a bit ick. Rose was a bit different but even then it got too angsty for me.

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21 hours ago, taanja said:

I was referring to that weird open they had during the Amy Pond years... where she recites meeting her raggedy man. Oy! So Annoying!

I was a little put off by their father/daughter dynamic -- especially when we found out River was her daughter. and the Doctor marries said daughter. Hm?

I always like to think/imagine my Doctor and whatever companion having sex in the TARDIS. Yes I do. Through time and space -- all over the place.!!!!! 

It depends on the Doctor. I always thought Five and Tegan might have. 

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On 1/9/2019 at 11:36 AM, libgirl2 said:

It depends on the Doctor. I always thought Five and Tegan might have. 

9 and Rose! and 10 and Rose and for sure the Matt Smith Doc and Clara. 

Leelah and 4? Oh yeah and for sure 4 and Romana

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15 hours ago, taanja said:

9 and Rose! and 10 and Rose and for sure the Matt Smith Doc and Clara. 

Leelah and 4? Oh yeah and for sure 4 and Romana

Well 4 was married to Romana (the second)! 

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On 1/11/2019 at 8:15 AM, libgirl2 said:

Well 4 was married to Romana (the second)! 

In true life...right?

I'm not one to follow actors but I think I heard/ read? maybe long ago that those two were married? On the show The Doctor and Romana were not married. 

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Just now, taanja said:

In true life...right?

I'm not one to follow actors but I think I heard/ read? maybe long ago that those two were married? On the show The Doctor and Romana were not married. 

In real life. 

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I got the impression from these boards that the Doctor had a rule "No hanky-panky (timey-wimey) in the TARDIS". However the obvious question came up when they were trying to deduce where Melody Pond was conceived. I'm sure Mickey "persuaded" Rose sometime between  (Reinette) TGITF and Sarah Jane Smith (SR), lol.

Madame Vastra would have surely flogged anyone who tried to "seduce a mountain range"; Except River .

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24 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

I got the impression from these boards that the Doctor had a rule "No hanky-panky (timey-wimey) in the TARDIS".

The Doctor doesn't (although some of them may not be switched on enough to notice even the possibility of it) but the producers back in the 1980s did!

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