S01.E04: 100% Not Guilty

[DangerousMinds]

Considering everything I've seen of the real life Robert Kardashian, and how Schwimmer is playing him, I totally rolled my eyes in that opener of seeing him dancing like he did. It didn't compute for me! He came (and comes in this show) across so low-key, so to see him jumping around and all manic...disconnect for me.

That was weird! And amusing. I couldn't help but think that Robert Sr. was at least able to let go and have some fun. I can't imagine Kimmy or the rest doing so. (well, maybe Khloe.)

[laurakaye]

 

The bad:  I realized that one of the publisher/author guys played Andy Garvey from Little House on the Prairie - and I realized I'm approaching 'Old crotchety lady' if I can figure out who he was from that far back.

Let me push my rocking chair up next to yours.  That's 100% how I remembered him, too.  Wonder what his cute little brother Matthew is up to?

Edited February 25, 2016 by laurakaye

[Catherinewriter]

I didn't know anything about Faye Resnick. But given what the show is doing to her, I'm confused about one thing. Bugliosi's book (and he could be said to know a few things about trial process, etc.) says that her book had substance and was helpful to the prosecution. But then he doesn't give any examples. Anyone know of other statements he made to support this point of view?

[roughing it]

 

Of course, to contradict myself in discounting the "truth" of it as related by this character, Cochran told that story, recounted OJ's feats in that game, and OJ recognized it as one that his team lost. If Cochran were making this up out of whole cloth, you'd think he'd have picked a game that OJ won.

Johnnie used the pep-talk - something he knew OJ understood and would respond to - in order to get him out of his funk and back to being "the Juice", and having the confidence to present his 100% absolutely not guilty plea.

 

BTW, Johnnie referenced the 49ers vs. Falcons game - didn't OJ play for the Buffalo Bills?

[EdnasEdibles]

I know you're right, but I have always had trouble wrapping my head around this idea. I don't care if Nicole was a slut or goldigger or a drug addict or a thief, or whether Ron was a male model, waiter, or slug that still lived in his dad's basement. Simply - they were still victims of a brutal double murder and deserve justice, as everyone does. 

 

Oh I totally agree with you - I feel the same way.  I just don't think a lot of people did back then. I think for a lot of people, it's hard to wrap your head our the fact that an unlikeable person still deserves justice. It's like the whole Steve Avery thing. I believe he is a terrible fucking person and he might have very well killed that woman BUT he did not get a fair investigation. But I see it all the time online "He is a piece of shit, he should be in jail" stuff like that. It's why that one Oklahoma cop's conviction was so pleasantly shocking - he had raped very poor women, some of them drug addicts and prostitutes and yet a jury was still like "The victims weren't perfect and yet they were still victims and deserve justice" - we've come a long way. I just don't think the jury members of the late 80s were there yet.

[toodywoody]

Interesting Kardashian interview, thanks for posting it.

[Umbelina]

I also never understood why the Goldmans seemed to want Ron to be given equal media focus as Nicole because the real driver of why the media paid attention to this story at all was the OJ and Nicole angle. This would not be the trial of the century if OJ just killed Ron. Maybe the trial of the year. Also, I didn't understand what Gikdman was saying because as far as murder victims go, while not as well remembered as Nicole, Ron Goldman has been remembered. Do we as readily remember the name any of the columbine killers victims or Casey Anthony's daughter or Robert chambers victim? And most murder victims get very little media attention, so I never really understood their perspective. And I must confess I've always found Goldmans rage off putting so I probably was not able to really hear what he was saying.

That's why I was moved by the scene in this episode. When Goldman started yelling at Marcia, I was like, yep, that's classic Fred Goldman - hair trigger anger that is being projected at someone who doesn't deserve it, but as the scene went on I heard the actor portraying Goldman passionately argue that the media did focus heavily on Ron but made him seem like a flaky last-LA type and that they never focused on the real person that was Ron Goldman or the brutality of his murder. He seemed upset not that Ron was going to be forgotten but rather he was going to be remembered as just another morally lax person who ran in the Brentwood circle with OJ, Nicole, Faye and Robert Jardashians and associated with their casual drug use and affairs.

Shallow note. I hate his mostache. There I said it. He seemed like he would be very handsome without it. Certainly Ron was.

As Fred said in this episode, and said many, many, many times during and after the trial, Ron was being smeared in the media, and he was also being forgotten, or at best, a "footnote" to his own brutal murder.  He didn't want Ron "famous."  He wanted his son's death to be seen, to matter, to deserve justice.  This was Fred Goldman's only son.  He had two children, his other children came to him through marriage, they were his wife's, and yes, of course he loved them, but they came in as teenagers.

 

Fred raised Ron and Kim.  After his divorce they lived with their mom, with very frequent visitation from him for about a year, then he got custody.  It was pretty unusual for the dad to get full custody back then, Kim was barely out of diapers.  They were very, very close.  He lost his first born child.  It happened in an incredibly brutal way.  Yes, his public grief and rage was a bit uncomfortable for many back then, since we were not really used to seeing a man be so open with his feelings, even though he was certainly justified in every single way to have them.  He was living with incredible horror, and tremendous loss. 

 

 

The other big reason a defense attorney doesn't ask is because a lawyer can be disbarred if they knowingly let someone commit perjury. Suborning perjury is not an easy thing to prove and I'm not saying all lawyers are above it, but trial lawyers who might have to put their client on the stand often don't ask the question because it allows them the option without breaking the rules. You can suspect to your hearts content (willful blindness is cool with the courts), but if you know, you can't ask anymore questions. 

 

The fact that Shapiro always asks and the rest of the table was horrified at the idea of talking about it shows the different between Shapiro and the trial lawyers. Knowing the truth is fine if the plan is to settle, but a lawyer who wants to take the fight to court knows its safer not to open that door at all. Because while you have to keep your client's confidence, they don't have to keep yours.

Thank you.  Shapiro was a strange one in so many ways, and I do think Travolta is capturing that.

 

Love that they called this ep. '100% Not Guilty', and ended with the lawyers walking into court to 'Above the Law.'    And on a more subtle note, the shift from Shapiro to Cochran also signaled the end of OJ's  show business career, such as it was.   Shapiro was the Beverly Hills attorney that Hollywood people called when they had legal trouble; Cochran was a criminal lawyer.

 

It's clear that Hollywood thought Simpson was guilty (Fred Levinson's interview was a good example. Levinson had created the Hertz commercials and Ronald Reagan's 'Morning in America' spots. He later admitted that he immediately thought OJ did it. The way news travels in this town, by implication most Bizpeople felt the same way.)

 

Kardashian was actually one of the few show business people who publicly stood by OJ. 

This interview was amazing and since I didn't know anything about Kardashian,really filled in some blanks:

  http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/robert-kardashian-longtime-friend-oj-simpson-doubts-innocence-33841201

That interview is fantastic.  I know many dislike RK and call him a sycophant, but this show is capturing what I thought I was seeing in him throughout all of this, before the arrest, during the trial, and certainly after it was over, and during his civil testimony.  I know it's just my gut feeling in many ways, but those feelings jibe almost exactly with what I'm seeing on this show.

 

ALSO, right here in this interview is another place where you see the so-called "all made up dialogue" came from.  It wasn't made up, it's word-for-word right out of Kardashian's mouth.  If you haven't seen and read every single interview or book or trial transcript from this show, it's silly to pronounce that it didn't happen.  Because, yeah, it very well could have, or did, not in Toobin's book, but somewhere else.  Like here.

 

Because of the Goldmans' efforts, I did pay just as much attention to Ron as a victim as I did Nicole. I always felt tremendous empathy for them.

Exactly.  The ONLY reason anyone remembered his name is Fred and Kim's love for him, and grief.  They were trashing him in the media until they spoke up.  Their words made the media take a step back and realize, "oh yeah, this guy was also slaughtered, maybe we should look into him a bit more."  Dominick Dunne led that really, but it was Fred that made it happen.  It was also Fred's righteous anger that carried him forth into yet another trial, one that finally found against OJ.  He stood by his son. 

 

You don't get over that kind of loss.  You don't ever really get over those images and imagining the horror of those last minutes of a loved one.  When that loved one is also the child you diapered?  I can't even imagine that grief.

 

I didn't know anything about Faye Resnick. But given what the show is doing to her, I'm confused about one thing. Bugliosi's book (and he could be said to know a few things about trial process, etc.) says that her book had substance and was helpful to the prosecution. But then he doesn't give any examples. Anyone know of other statements he made to support this point of view?

OJ's stalking, and much more detail about her previous beatings, a few were worse than the 1989 beating.  OJ telling Faye he might kill her.  Nicole frequently telling her OJ would kill her (with a knife or scissors.)

 

Johnnie used the pep-talk - something he knew OJ understood and would respond to - in order to get him out of his funk and back to being "the Juice", and having the confidence to present his 100% absolutely not guilty plea.

 

BTW, Johnnie referenced the 49ers vs. Falcons game - didn't OJ play for the Buffalo Bills?

He also played at the end of his career for the 'Niners.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Umbelina

[roughing it]

Thank you, Umbellina

[ennui]

I realized something when I watched this episode. It doesn’t matter if Cuba is well-cast or not, because this show isn’t about OJ. It’s about the lawyers.

[kassa]

When it comes to Shapiro asking who thinks OJ is guilty -- I’m sure they all knew he was guilty (as far as you could know it.  I'll give Kardashian leave to not want to believe it while still seeing on some level that it was true).  Their horror was that Shapiro was such a bad lawyer that he would EVER say such a thing out loud. He was showing his hand as somebody way beneath the collective skillset of the room. 

 

I’m loving Travolta’s headlong tone deaf portrayal. Even his energetic hello to the secretary upon his return to the office was completely devoid of human warmth.  Shapiro was somebody that was viscerally offputting.   

Speaking of cheesy, am I supposed to believe that football story Cochran told OJ? Because I swear I could smell the bullshit through my TV.

 

 

 

I didn’t believe it for a second.  The thing is, even when Cochran was shoveling it out, he was just charming enough that you wanted to believe that even if it wasn’t precisely true, there was something behind what he was saying that WAS true, which kinda made it okay.  Even the whole “if the glove don’t fit” – as asinine as it was, you admired him for coming up with it.

 

I would assume it was plainly obvious, at least to the black community, that Darden was indeed there to be the "token" 

 

 

It was obvious to everybody (except Darden, at least as portrayed in last night’s episode.  I read his book way long ago and I seem to recall he had some kind of resentment/ambivalence about suddenly being "needed" on the team.  Though that may have come after the Uncle Tom attacks started)

[TV Diva Queen]

Cochran WAS cheesy, but the jury ate it up.

 

I haven't read any of Cochran's books, so I don't know if he told that story or not, let alone if it was true.  I DO know he needed to convince OJ to switch from Shapiro to him as lead attorney, and his style in court was probably his style in real life when he needed something.

 

ETA my take on that scene was the Cochran was spinning a tale, being convincing, just as he did in court.

But he had details of the game.  Maybe he studied a game and then made up the rest.  

[helenamonster]

Speaking of cheesy, am I supposed to believe that football story Cochran told OJ? Because I swear I could smell the bullshit through my TV.

 

I didn't believe it for a goddamn second, and was waiting for a scene later where we saw Cochran thank someone for giving him the details about the game.

 

I realized something when I watched this episode. It doesn’t matter if Cuba is well-cast or not, because this show isn’t about OJ. It’s about the lawyers.

 

I was thinking that too, and it actually seems quite fitting. Again, I'm too young to remember any of this but my perception has been that this whole circus just erupted around the whole thing and OJ himself stopped seeming so important once the press latched onto the "characters" of Cochran, Clark, Darden, Kaelin, Ito, etc. His celebrity was the impetus for everything but it quickly became about much more than him so he got swallowed up in it.

[Dejana]

A couple of weeks ago, Brentwood resident and former OJ friend Al Michaels talked about the show and the case a bit in an interview. He was discussing how Brentwood has kind of been the most boring/sedate place ever, except for the OJ circus, and also Monica Lewinsky had been from the area. I thought of that during the "Brentwood hello" part.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Dejana

[Umbelina]

The lawyers, the people surrounding them, the victim's families and friends, and the press circus I think.  OJ really isn't involved in his trial, doesn't testify in this one (although he's forced to in the civil trial, where, at points, he giggles.)  I've heard he offered up ridiculous suggestions that Kardashian was tasked to squash.

[GHScorpiosRule]

The lawyers, the people surrounding them, the victim's families and friends, and the press circus I think.  OJ really isn't involved in his trial, doesn't testify in this one (although he's forced to in the civil trial, where, at points, he giggles.)  I've heard he offered up ridiculous suggestions that Kardashian was tasked to squash.

 

According to Schiller, OJ also advised his lawyers not to call Ito to task for something...it was in the secret tapes documentary or something.  What I got from that, was that OJ wasn't a silent client, who did what his lawyers told him to do. Something about how OJ knew his audience and played up so that they would see what he wanted them to see. I don't mean to be ambiguous, but I can't recall exactly what he said.  So even though this series is supposed to all about the lawyers, it's also about OJ too, so they should have cast a better actor, in my humble opinion.  I keep reminding myself to remember his statement to the Colorado judge and how his voice did...break, and try to convince myself, yes, it's possible OJ was all raspy and broken-voiced before the trial started. Every little bit helps so as not to take myself out of this story being told.

[Milburn Stone]

So even though this series is supposed to all about the lawyers, it's also about OJ too, so they should have cast a better actor, in my humble opinion.

 

Not really disagreeing, but the observation that the show is about the circus that surrounded OJ raises the interesting possibility that they cast a "lightweight" in the OJ part deliberately. Put an actor with a truly charismatic presence in that role and he might shift the balance in an unhelpful way.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Not really disagreeing, but the observation that the show is about the circus that surrounded OJ raises the interesting possibility that they cast a "lightweight" in the OJ part deliberately. Put an actor with a truly charismatic presence in that role and he might shift the balance in an unhelpful way.

Taking response to casting thread.

[BW Manilowe]

Johnnie used the pep-talk - something he knew OJ understood and would respond to - in order to get him out of his funk and back to being "the Juice", and having the confidence to present his 100% absolutely not guilty plea.

BTW, Johnnie referenced the 49ers vs. Falcons game - didn't OJ play for the Buffalo Bills?

OJ played for the 49ers at the end of his NFL career. He played for Buffalo from 1969 through 1977 & the 49ers 1978-1979, according to his Wikipedia page.

[Rock knocker]

 

 

BTW, Johnnie referenced the 49ers vs. Falcons game - didn't OJ play for the Buffalo Bills?

Probably the Oct 22, 1978 game in SF against ATL.   The Falcons won 2017, and OJ had almost 100 yards.

 

His output the next years really suffered.

[ennui]

I remember the trade between the Bills and the 49ers. I can’t find any documentation (admittedly, a very brief Bing search), but I remember it being an example of OJ’s sense of entitlement. He didn’t like New York, and he wanted to play in California. Also, he grew up in SF. By that time, OJ had a seriously arthritic knee, and he wasn’t much of a trade, but the 49ers went for it, giving up five future draft picks. It was big news at the time. *shrug*

When I read comments from people who are too young to remember the trial, or OJ playing football, I am actually grateful for my age.

Not really disagreeing, but the observation that the show is about the circus that surrounded OJ raises the interesting possibility that they cast a "lightweight" in the OJ part deliberately. Put an actor with a truly charismatic presence in that role and he might shift the balance in an unhelpful way.

I wouldn’t call Cuba a lightweight. In some scenes, I believe him as a murderer. But, I don’t believe him as OJ Simpson.

[Showthyme]

This series portrays Marcia Clark as a much more likable person than the one that we saw on Court TV. As a white woman growing up in L.A., I too would have given Marcia a low score. She was not commanding in the courtroom and was no match for almost anyone on the Dream Team. It is mind boggling that the Prosecutor's Office had this information up front and choose Marcia to represent the State. Marcia made serious errors in judgment that caused her to lose the case as soon as she accepted the jury panel. Clearly, she miscalculated the anger still present from Rodney King or that black men had been unfairly profiled and charged by the LAPD for decades. Chris Darden made the blunder of his life asking OJ to try on the glove. However, he was a better choice to go up against OJ than Marcia Clark.

 

Bob Shapiro was demoted to the potted plant on the Dream Team. I always thought that he should have said that he had other clients that needed representation and would step down since OJ was in good hands. Shapiro could have taken credit for assembling a good team like Jose Baez did in the Casey Anthony trial. It was stupid of Shapiro to suggest to OJ that he should take a manslaughter plea. OJ is too narcissistic for that.

 

Everyone on the Dream Team was out for themselves. It just happened that OJ won. F. Lee Bailey did not want his client to accept a plea because he wanted to stay in the limelight.

 

I have to keep reminding myself that Cuba Gooding Jr. is playing OJ. Otherwise, I keep wondering why he is appearing in the American Crime Story episode.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Showthyme

[kassa]

I don't think it's Cuba's acting -- like ennui said, you can buy him as a murderer, just not THIS murderer.  So I guess it might even work with the younger folks who don't remember OJ.  But OJ was always the biggest star in a room, and a commanding physical presence.  Cuba is not.  

 

The internet tells me that he's 5'10 (which usually means 5'8" in actor height), and OJ is 6' 1".  But in scene after scene in this series, Cuba is dwarfed by the actors around him, including the female actors!  If he's really 5'8 or 5'6" and playing somebody 6'1" -- why cast bit part actors over 6 feet for scenes like the handcuffing?   And then that disco scene!

 

Nathan Lane as Flea undercutting Shapiro on Larry King was hilarious. I have to assume those are the real transcripts.  I assume Larry King came back to play himself against Lane as Bailey.  Physically he's all caved in in the shoulders now in a way he wasn't 20 years ago (time gets us all!)

[Rock knocker]

I remember the trade between the Bills and the 49ers..............I remember it being an example of OJ’s sense of entitlement. He didn’t like New York, and he wanted to play in California. 

I don't think that trade was an example of entitlement any more than the myriad of trades that happen at the behest of a player at the end of a career.  He went from a poor team to a poor team, and the Bills collected a bunch of draft choices in order to rebuild.

[Milburn Stone]

I assume Larry King came back to play himself against Lane as Bailey.  Physically he's all caved in in the shoulders now in a way he wasn't 20 years ago (time gets us all!)

 

Which is why he's only filmed in wide shot.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Milburn Stone

[Special K]

This interview was amazing and since I didn't know anything about Kardashian,really filled in some blanks:

  http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/robert-kardashian-longtime-friend-oj-simpson-doubts-innocence-33841201

 

That interview is amazing, and really sad.

[qtpye]

I know you're right, but I have always had trouble wrapping my head around this idea. I don't care if Nicole was a slut or goldigger or a drug addict or a thief, or whether Ron was a male model, waiter, or slug that still lived in his dad's basement. Simply - they were still victims of a brutal double murder and deserve justice, as everyone does.

 

 

This show has recently peaked my interest in the trial again.  I asked a man, who I considered educated and cultured, if he liked Nicole Brown Simpson.  He is an age that he would be well aware of the O.J. trial, even if he did not follow it.

 

The guy said he did not like Nicole and had great sympathy for her children.

 

We have been talking about Goldman, but does anyone have any theories to why the heck the public seemed to hate Nicole so much?  I mean even people who think O.J. did it, do not feel too bad for her.

 

If I were to have a theory, it is probably because most people think she had an easy life, because she represented what was considered ideal female beauty in society.  They think she was looking for a come up and was therefore greedy and lazy.

 

I mean say the jury was filled with white women...would they feel sorry for her...or would they just look at her with contempt?

 

Maybe, the dislike is just plain old misogyny?  I really am asking, because the lack of sympathy for her, even in this day, is something that has always confused me.

[jaync]

Great episode, for all the reasons mentioned.

 

Clark's little smirk towards Cochran was everything.

[DangerousMinds]

I have never known anyone that expressed negativity toward Nicole. I cried when i heard the first verdict. All I could think about were those poor victims, incredibly brutally murdered.

[Umbelina]

This show has recently peaked my interest in the trial again.  I asked a man, who I considered educated and cultured, if he liked Nicole Brown Simpson.  He is an age that he would be well aware of the O.J. trial, even if he did not follow it.

 

The guy said he did not like Nicole and had great sympathy for her children.

 

We have been talking about Goldman, but does anyone have any theories to why the heck the public seemed to hate Nicole so much?  I mean even people who think O.J. did it, do not feel too bad for her.

 

If I were to have a theory, it is probably because most people think she had an easy life, because she represented what was considered ideal female beauty in society.  They think she was looking for a come up and was therefore greedy and lazy.

 

I mean say the jury was filled with white women...would they feel sorry for her...or would they just look at her with contempt?

 

Maybe, the dislike is just plain old misogyny?  I really am asking, because the lack of sympathy for her, even in this day, is something that has always confused me.

OJ's lawyers and Faye Resnick did a masterful job of smearing Nicole's name.

 

She was hardly a "gold digger."  She rarely dressed up, and then only to accompany OJ to something.  She was a jeans and sneakers kind of girl.  She gave back the expensive jewelry OJ bought for her when he was trying to get her back.  She didn't wear expensive jewelry, ever, and she could see he was trying to buy her.  She barely got anything in the divorce settlement.  She was with him or trying to reconcile with him for 17 years.  Everyone that knew her said her life was her kids and her family, she was an extremely hands-on mother.  Hell, even OJ said that!  It breaks my heart and makes me sick how smeared both Ron and Nicole were.

 

As far as what a real jury would do?  They did it, in the civil trial.  They found him responsible for both murders.  You really should watch "Juror # 5" too see how a regular juror without prejudice or agenda saw OJ, AND the victims. 

 

[lovinbob]

This show has recently peaked my interest in the trial again.  I asked a man, who I considered educated and cultured, if he liked Nicole Brown Simpson.  He is an age that he would be well aware of the O.J. trial, even if he did not follow it.

 

The guy said he did not like Nicole and had great sympathy for her children.

 

We have been talking about Goldman, but does anyone have any theories to why the heck the public seemed to hate Nicole so much?  I mean even people who think O.J. did it, do not feel too bad for her.

 

If I were to have a theory, it is probably because most people think she had an easy life, because she represented what was considered ideal female beauty in society.  They think she was looking for a come up and was therefore greedy and lazy.

 

I mean say the jury was filled with white women...would they feel sorry for her...or would they just look at her with contempt?

 

Maybe, the dislike is just plain old misogyny?  I really am asking, because the lack of sympathy for her, even in this day, is something that has always confused me.

I think misogyny is a good guess. I think that effective PR by the OJ team is another. (And Resnick, apparently--luckily I'd never heard what she had to say before now. I paid selective attention, I guess.)

 

But I have to say, considering what Kris Jenner became, that Faye Resnick is still on our TVs and even that shows like RHoBH/OC exist, and how people respond to them, gives me an indication. If Nicole hadn't been murdered, might she have ended up on reality TV? Sadly, we'll never know. But people love to hate women like Nicole, whether or not she was the salt of the earth or if she was a gold digger. She had beauty, money, and privilege, and people hate that. 

[qtpye]

She had beauty, money, and privilege, and people hate that.

 

 

Do you think it is just plain old jealousy then?  I think the narrative is that she was working as a waitress and O.J. was struck by her beauty and just had to ask her out.  This seems like a fairy tale to most people.  Beautiful working class woman is lifted into a world of privilege by a wealthy powerful man.  It almost reads like a Danielle Steel (sp?) novel.

 

Los Angeles is a place with many beautiful actresses and models working in the service industry hoping for a big break.  People were probably asking what the heck made her so special?

 

It saddens me that it is like that she was victimized twice (like Goldman).  First, brutally murdered, then tarnished to the point of very little sympathy.

[MargotWendice]

Regarding some of the negativity toward Nicole: I suspect a racial divide on this. I have not met many people who have negative feelings toward Nicole, but the ones that have expressed them have been black women.

I am sharing my opinions as the daughter of a white, blue-eyed blonde who married a black men. My parents met in college where my father was a football star and my mother was a cheerleader (seriously).

My mom's family struggled with their marriage but my father's family HATED my mom. My mom spent decades being told that she had 'stolen' a successful black man from some more deserving black woman. My mom had strangers make comments to her about this, especially when she was out with us and people found out we were her biological children. 

After the murders, one of my aunts said that she hoped OJ had 'learned his lesson' and would stick with black women from now on (I did not delve further into her meaning).

Black women in this country have such a difficult time, and so many young black men end up dead or in prison that it feels like a real betrayal to have a successful one partner with a white woman. It is seen as a rejection of black women and support of Eurocentric views of beauty: light eyes, light skin, straight hair. Black women are less likely to partner outside their race so many end up chronically single unless they have very high levels of education/income. 

 

[toodywoody]

That's one of reason Fred Goldman was very public about Ron. Here were two people brutally murdered. Nicole's head basically severed and Ron butchered. There were those that could not look past OJ'S outward niceness. When there was proof he was nasty, a woman beater, in private. Personally I hate fake people, OJ was fake, all nice and smiles in public but a monster in private. I don't care what Nicole did, she didn't deserve to be killed at all. Ron was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but he didn't deserve it either. So for people to say she deserved it just makes my blood boil. No one deserves that ever and especially from a person they loved and the father of their children. It's just a shame that people still think like that. I don't care if Nicole was a bad person or even if half the stuff Faye said was true, she still didn't deserve to be brutally murdered.

[helenamonster]

This show has recently peaked my interest in the trial again.  I asked a man, who I considered educated and cultured, if he liked Nicole Brown Simpson.  He is an age that he would be well aware of the O.J. trial, even if he did not follow it.

 

The guy said he did not like Nicole and had great sympathy for her children.

 

We have been talking about Goldman, but does anyone have any theories to why the heck the public seemed to hate Nicole so much?  I mean even people who think O.J. did it, do not feel too bad for her.

 

If I were to have a theory, it is probably because most people think she had an easy life, because she represented what was considered ideal female beauty in society.  They think she was looking for a come up and was therefore greedy and lazy.

 

I mean say the jury was filled with white women...would they feel sorry for her...or would they just look at her with contempt?

 

Maybe, the dislike is just plain old misogyny?  I really am asking, because the lack of sympathy for her, even in this day, is something that has always confused me.

 

As others have said, I think a lot of it had to do with how the defense smeared her and probably how Resnick depicted her in the book. Because, yeah, she wasn't perfect, she clearly had some problems. But I think what happens is this sort of reaction to the overhype of someone in the media. Beautiful blonde white woman is viciously murdered. The media loves stories like that. We've seen so many similar cases being shoved down our throats ad nauseam. Natalie Holloway. Laci Peterson (not blonde but white). Jaycee Dugard (who luckily survived). Elizabeth Smart (who also fortunately survived, though I remember feeling like the coverage on the search for her was interminable). There is, for whatever reason, a certain market in the news media for these kinds of stories. Otherwise unremarkable but attractive white women who become victims of these sensationalized crimes. We're told to feel bad for them, to identify with them, to pay attention to every step of the investigation.

 

And then people get justifiably resentful. The media never covers similar stories when WoC are brutally murdered or go missing. And then it becomes, "What's so special about so-and-so? Why is she getting round the clock media coverage? What about this woman, or that woman?" Then I think it kind of turns into a downward spiral to discredit the victim. "She had a coke habit." "She hung around with shady people." "She stole a black man away from his black wife." And the media is able to sense that shift in the tide and act accordingly, doing segments about who they "really" were, etc.

 

Where I think things get lost is while the outrage seems to be directed more about the coverage of the crime/victim, it eventually lands on the victim themselves, and people use it as a reason as to justify what happened to them. Doing coke and marrying a black man does not mean someone deserves to be murdered, but watch media coverage of a victim like Nicole long enough and I think you'll see how people could start to feel that way.

 

Unfortunately, also think the domestic violence element in this case was a serious hindrance to the jury (and the jury of public opinion) being able to sympathize with Nicole. Even today there is still a serious lack of understanding of the sort of gaslighting that domestic abusers use against their victims. How often when we hear of domestic violence cases do we also hear people ask (or we ourselves even ask), "But why doesn't/didn't she just leave him?" I think that might have been in play here too. Nicole did leave OJ, but maybe for some people that wasn't enough. If he had really beat her, she would have moved farther away, etc. Or she should have seen this coming, if he was that violent (which apparently she did). I think a combination of overhyped media coverage and rampant misunderstanding of domestic violence sort of culminated in people not giving a shit about Nicole. She wasn't that special, she should have done more to protect herself, and she got what was coming to her. It's awful but I can see what made people think that. Especially when you throw in the racial aspects of the case.

[SFoster21]

I, too, had nothing but sympathy for her, having experienced domestic violence and stalking in a marriage. Nothing like what happened to her, but very scary and awful to live through. Luckily, no kids, so I moved away.

How could she move away? She loved her children and wanted them to have a father.

I heard people say, "she blew a guy while her children were upstairs!" Hell, he cut her throat while his children were upstairs. I have nothing but contempt for that man.

Edited February 27, 2016 by SFoster21

[Kromm]

Nathan Lane as Flea undercutting Shapiro on Larry King was hilarious. I have to assume those are the real transcripts.  I assume Larry King came back to play himself against Lane as Bailey.  Physically he's all caved in in the shoulders now in a way he wasn't 20 years ago (time gets us all!)

Back then Larry looked like a walking corpse. These days he looks more like a sitting corpse.

[Kel Varnsen]

Watching this episode it seems crazy that they didn't try to charge AC. Although reading up on the case it seems even crazier that on top of that, Clark and the prosecution didn't even mention the bronco chase or the money/disguise or the suicide note to the jury.

[Simon Boccanegra]

I was sorry they passed over the awesome Judge Kathleen Kennedy Powell, who presided over Simpson's preliminary hearing. (I've deleted the episode from DVR, but shouldn't she have been the judge in the real-life scene corresponding to the one where the defense's "object to everything" strategy is first dramatized? But the show had an older white male judge there, if memory serves.)

 

KKP was one of my favorite minor players in this story. Very poised, authoritative, in control. Even Bugliosi in Outrage said he was impressed with her, and he hardly had anything good to say about anyone who entered a courtroom in this thing.  

Edited February 27, 2016 by Simon Boccanegra

[Isabella15]

Simon Boccanegra, the same thought crossed my mind about Judge KK-P...can't remember when she appeared for sure though.

 

Judge Kennedy-Powell is presiding over the Grim Sleeper trial going on now in L.A.

[ketose]

However, without the Goldman's I'm not so sure the civil trial would have gone to conclusion, with a verdict against OJ, eventually resulting in OJ going to jail in his attempt to keep money away from the Goldman's.  I suspect that Nicole's family would have quietly settled out of court.  Not so Fred.  He wanted OJ's guilt, or at least liability, to be shouted from the roof tops.  So, good for the Goldman's, that they kept yelling out that Ron was there too.

Nicole's family was in the tough position where OJ was still the father of children related to their family. Fred Goldman had no such limitations. He wanted to hit OJ where it hurt, his money and fame. The civil trial proved that OJ was less than 50% not guilty and that put the nail in the coffin of him being framed by some elaborate drug plot. The settlement took away all of OJ's money so that he had to spend his time fighting to keep his NFL pension and hiding whatever assets he could.

 

Of course, the crime OJ committed by trying to steal back the memorabilia sold at auction to pay the Goldmans really finished him. OJ brought a weapon, threatened people and got arrested for some junk he owned back when he played football. He's sitting in jail now because of the Goldman family. Had OJ been found guilty back in 1995, he might have been out a few years from now and been able to peddle some bullshit story of redemption. Now he's damaged goods.

 

As far as the Brian Posehn story, actress Judy Greer wrote a book called "I Don't Know What You Know Me From" because it is such a strange thing to ask someone else what you know.

 

There is a weird sort of retribution all over this case. In this episode Robert Kardashian and Johnnie Cochran are the biggest fighters for OJ to be found not guilty and they're the ones who both died early.

[Armchair Critic]

My very stoic father did not care for Fred Goldman because he was so openly emotional. 

 

As for Nicole, to be honest I think I didn't feel a lot of warmth towards her back then was because at that time I was very into my career and she seemed like one of those women who got by on her looks and never had to work because she was supported by a rich, famous guy. Now that I am older and have a child I am more sympathetic to her.

[psychoticstate]

I know nothing about Faye Resnick—I've never watched RHBH, and somehow her books escaped my attention years ago. But if Connie's take on her is accurate—whoa. How does this woman hold her head up? What a piece of shit. (This show reaffirms my semi-rational bias against LA.) 

 

The Fred Goldman scene was truly devastating, and I agree with the poster who noted, in particular, the way Joseph Siravo's voice cracked. Incredible. 

 

Sterling K. Brown steals every scene. He is H-O-T. I don't remember finding Darden that compelling.

 

I met Darden at a book signing years ago and the man WAS compelling.  In person, he had a very magnetic charisma that didn't come across on tv.  He was also much taller and larger in size than I anticipated.  There were a lot more people that showed up than planned and he stayed and signed every single book and was very pleasant. 

 

Like others, the Goldmans' scene tore me up.  I remember when the murders happened and the resulting publicity and Ron was rarely mentioned and when he was, he was "Nicole's friend", "part-time model," etc.  Like Fred Goldman said, he was a footnote to his own murder and it was a damn disgrace.  Bad enough that Fred and Kim lost their son and brother but when the media bothered to remember Ron at all, they didn't even get the details about him right.   I'm glad the show included the dialogue about Fred mentioning that Ron was a good kid, he didn't drink or do drugs and volunteered with kids with cerebral palsy in his spare time.  The public SHOULD know that Simpson destroyed a kind and good person and affected his family forever.

 

Faye Resnick is a massive POS.  Not just because she wrote a book about Nicole revealing all this crap - - whether true or not, she should have considered that Nicole's family and her CHILDREN would someday read or hear about this.  But because she did this MONTHS after her so-called best friend's murder. If she wanted to talk, she should have contacted the prosecution and gotten on the stand and testified as to how Simpson beat Nicole.

[MsJamieDornan]

I felt the same way about Fred. And Denise Brown. But particularly Fred. I know it's not because they reminded me of someone I disliked who was actually in my life, but I don't know what it is. Like you said, I felt for their pain. But every time they were on TV, I either changed the channel (if they weren't on all the channels for some reason) or I wanted to tell them to just shut it already. Maybe I just felt Fred (& Kim, actually) was pushing much too hard for Ron to be *noticed*,

 

Ugh.. Fred Goldman and Denise Brown wanted fame for themselves. Both rubbed me the wrong way. Just go away, both of you. And, take Kim Goldman with you. I seriously doubt any lawyer would turn to her and say "gotcha".

[mbutterfly]

First, he likely has a personality disorder.

Second, I believe he knew someone (probably RK) would speak up and do it for him. That's why one surrounds oneself with toadies--so they can take care of the unpleasantness.

As others have mentioned, it seems like his self-image of being a 'nice guy' was absolutely essential to him. It probably became even more so after he committed a double homicide. And if this scene was portrayed accurately it all worked out beautifully--he fired Shapiro as first chair while appearing to do so very reluctantly, maybe even under the influence of others. I am guessing Shapiro was left feeling much more annoyed with Cochran, Lee, et al. than with OJ.

You've stated this so well. I've read nearly all the books (not Faye's) and this was a quality in OJ I hadn't picked up on. He wanted to be adulated, but -- I suspect --- he felt so intellectually inferior to men such as he had gathered that he was something of a trembling coward with them. We didn't see it because they propped him up, but they sent fear to his narcissistic core. 

[VanillaBeanne]

I was sorry they passed over the awesome Judge Kathleen Kennedy Powell, who presided over Simpson's preliminary hearing. (I've deleted the episode from DVR, but shouldn't she have been the judge in the real-life scene corresponding to the one where the defense's "object to everything" strategy is first dramatized? But the show had an older white male judge there, if memory serves

I'm also surprised they downplayed the preliminary hearing because it was another setback for the prosecution. Because the 911 tapes made by Nicole were leaked to the public (either by the prosecution or the LAPD, but in either case, by the "state"), the grand jury had to be dismissed since the tapes, and Nicole's voice, was all over the media.. Thus the need for the preliminary hearing before a judge where the judge reviews all evidence to determine if there's enough for a case. The prosecution now had to present all evidence and preview their case to the defense a much earlier stage than had they been able to get a grand jury indictment. The defense considered this a huge tactical advantage since they got a head start on their trial strategy while the prosecution had to nail theirs down in only two weeks from the date of ojs arrest.

Edited February 27, 2016 by VanillaBeanne

[mbutterfly]

I am frustrated that they're portraying Kardashian as a wide-eyed innocent, good guy. He was a sycophant who was so into OJ that he was willing to do anything for him, including possibly disposing of evidence for him. He was a slimeball.

To me they are making him look like a sycophant who happens also to be a pretty good person. I was never sure he disposed of evidence though plenty was said about it at the time. Maybe I'm looking at the portrayal through my original view of Kardashian though.

[Daisy head]

I'm really curious, this isn't a smart assed post.  For those of you who thought the actor playing Fred Goldman was over the top, did you see him (*Fred) speak in real time, during the trial? 

 

Not just the video I posted above, but in life?  Because honestly, for me, who did watch when it was all happening, he NAILED that portrayal, in spite of the wig issues.

 

     

         I was thinking the same thing.  The Goldman"s were always very emotional, which is understandable.  That scene didn't play out as over the top at all to me.  It seemed very reasonable that the Goldman's would feel that way.  I'm not sure how soon after the murders this was suppose to have taken place, but even if it had been a few months, I would think that any parent/sister who had lost a son/brother in such a horrible way, only to have him portrayed to the public as little more than a gigolo, would feel the same pain and outrage.  And that is exactly how they seemed to act at the time, if I remember correctly.  

Fred's character said in the beginning of the scene that at first he thought Ron must have been killed in a car accident.  I took that to mean that, had that been the case, it would have been bad enough, but what actually happened made their pain so much worse.   I may be in the minority here, but to me, that scene played out as one of the most real moments we've seen yet.

[Daisy head]

Wow. So, just because Ron wasn't a celebrity, and the media and everyone was talking and acting as if Nicole was the only victim, he didn't deserve justice? That the public/press shouldn't be reminded that there was a second victim? I don't believe it was Fred Goldman's intent to make his son more famous or to give him celebrity status. He was being trashed in the media as someone shady.  He was a victim and deserved better than to be a footnote. Guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  And OJ was charged with TWO murders, not just one. But the way everyone was talking, one would think that Nicole was the only victim.

 

So, if Ron had also been a celebrity in his own right, it would more palatable to see Fred Goldman's rage and grief and wanting his son's murder to get justice? 

 

I don't and didn't think Nicole was a celebrity. All I knew was that OJ was one, and that Nicole was the name of his ex-wife. Never saw her in the media prior to this murder. But I guess, by virtue of being married to him, she was a celebrity.

 

Still, I believed then and still do now, that Ron murder should have gotten as much attention as Nicole's. Because he was also slaughtered that night.  By the same person.  It's not as if Ron were killed by someone else, and Fred Goldman was trying to say, look! OJ also killed my son.

 

I...just can't fathom why some would think that Ron deserved to be the footnote in this tragedy because he wasn't famous in his own right.

I wish I could give this 1,000 thumbs up, but since I can only give one, I'll give it props by reposting.  All of this x 1,000,000!

[smiley13]

Was it really "smearing" Nicole if what was said about her was true?  If that was the kind of life she had chosen to live, that information was pertinent to the case, especially the drug angle.  Sure Resnick was and is a piece of work, but the book told who Nicole was.  I mean, she had a seduction scene set up that night waiting on Goldman to arrive while her young children were in the house.  That backed up the reports of her promiscuous behavior.

[Isabella15]

To me they are making him look like a sycophant who happens also to be a pretty good person. I was never sure he disposed of evidence though plenty was said about it at the time. Maybe I'm looking at the portrayal through my original view of Kardashian though.

 

I posted this article in the Kardashian thread but thought I'd put it here too-- I didn't know anything about any Kardashians, so I was curious about Robert.  And this was written at the time of the civil trial.  When Kardashian was married to Kris, the two couples did a lot of socializing together.  At the time of the murders, Robert and Kris were divorced, and he hadn't seen much of OJ.  He was so shocked by what happened, he went over there to help.  I don't think he knowingly helped get rid of evidence,  but I think Shapiro told him to activate his law license because no one knew what OJ told Kardashian or what he might have seen or heard later. 

 

Los Angeles Magazine article on Bob Kardashian:

http://www.lamag.com/longform/stand-by-your-man/

 

         I was thinking the same thing.  The Goldman"s were always very emotional, which is understandable.  That scene didn't play out as over the top at all to me.  It seemed very reasonable that the Goldman's would feel that way.  I'm not sure how soon after the murders this was suppose to have taken place, but even if it had been a few months, I would think that any parent/sister who had lost a son/brother in such a horrible way, only to have him portrayed to the public as little more than a gigolo, would feel the same pain and outrage.  And that is exactly how they seemed to act at the time, if I remember correctly.  

Fred's character said in the beginning of the scene that at first he thought Ron must have been killed in a car accident.  I took that to mean that, had that been the case, it would have been bad enough, but what actually happened made their pain so much worse.   I may be in the minority here, but to me, that scene played out as one of the most real moments we've seen yet.

 

I think the Goldmans as well as Bob Kardashian, were severely traumatized by the murders.  Nothing in their lives had prepared them for anything like this violent, bloody event.  When Kardashian called OJ's house after he heard the news, he assumed Nicole had been shot.  And Fred assumed Ron had been in an accident. 

 

When they heard the horrible details, the profound shock was so great that it changed their lives from that point onwards. So their behavior can be seen as post traumatic stress, made even worse by the months of the trial and all the media coverage good, bad and ugly.---  And both in court and in public media, putting the victims on trial instead of OJ, the accused.  --

 

OJ was the one who committed violent acts, illegal acts, horrific acts.  Imagine hearing your son or daughter or sister or brother had been attacked and stabbed 40 or 50 times.  And decapitated.  And died in pain.  That is a trauma and wound to the soul that can never be removed.  Bandaged and healed, yes.  But these beautiful young people suffered and died, and the man who did that was sitting there smirking in the courtroom.  While TV turned it all into entertainment.  And Judge Ito allowed it.  Truly adding insult to injury.

 

People never were able to grieve privately and process what happened to their loved ones.  In Fred's case, a parent often feels they should have protected their child from harm, even when it would be impossible to do so--and sadly, both Fred and Kim were trying to protect Ron and tell him they loved him. 

Edited February 27, 2016 by Isabella15