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Justice League (2017)

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18 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Alfred mansplaining the proper way to make tea to Wonder Woman.

Absolutely agree with all your other points, but I thought he was more "British-splaining". Alfred would have reacted like that to anyone.  One does not f' with a British person's tea!

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9 hours ago, absnow54 said:

 

I watched the theatrical release again, since it had been several years, and I don't know if Snyder benefited from lessons learned surrounding the film's criticism, but his version was much better. A lot of commentary said that his film wasn't as light or funny as Wheadon's version, but honestly, all of the best jokes from the movie were in the Snyder cut ("I'm rich" "Did I not talk before" "I bought the bank.")

I also chuckled when Batman brought everyone to the Batcave to meet Alfred (“This is Alfred.  I work for him.”), and Arthur walks by and says “It’s badass, Alfred.”  I don’t remember the theatrical version that well, so I don’t remember if that scene was in it, but I liked it here.  Also, Flash taking out Arthur by accident when they are fighting Superman, Aquaman pointing angrily to Flash as they are on the ground, and Flash just saying, “I am so sorry.”  Flash was 1000 times more likable in this version.

Even though, as I said in my prior post, I struggled with how Superman came back amnesic and cruel, and I still might have liked to see him more confused and alarmed than furious (and defending himself in a confused manner rather than being such an aggressive attacker), I can appreciate how as his memory returned, so did his kindness.  Lois was the first thing that he remembered (his love), and he then flew on instinct to the first place he remembered fondly (the farmhouse), where his powers of speech and his memories finally returned.  His humanity made him whole.  And then Snyder lastly showed him in the cornfield with a butterfly gently flitting through his hands, demonstrating that when Clark has all his faculties, this most powerful being on Earth is actually a gentle person.  That was a nice contrast and insertion for this version.  I think the “nightmare” or “knightmare” premonitions of Bruce’s entirely undermine that motif (Clark’s humanity ends up breaking him and turning him cruel), but that’s the frustrating thing about a Snyder movie, I guess.

And I do get that this is a theme that properties like Injustice like to explore—losing Lois warps Superman somehow—but I just didn’t warm to it here.

Edited by Peace 47
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11 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

my eyes couldn’t have rolled any harder than at the very beginning when that text appeared onscreen saying that it was in 4:3 aspect ratio to “preserve Zach Snyder’s creative vision.”  The pretentiousness!  I guess they had to say something, though, so that people wouldn’t think that there was a bug with the app.

Yeah, it’s unsurprising that they had to do that.  I worked at a mall video store back when DVDs and Letterboxed VHS were still kind of a novelty (I’m old), and we were more or less required to mention the aspect ratio whenever someone brought them up to the register.  Especially those widescreen tapes- people would absolutely try to return them because they “didn’t have the whole picture.”  For the record, this is why I questioned the 4x3 decision after the first trailer dropped- this is a battle I’ve been through before...

9 hours ago, absnow54 said:

Still, the best version of this movie is going to be the 2 1/2 hour version of the Snyder Cut that a fan edits and posts on YouTube.

I suspect this will be the case.  It seems like the most common praise for the snydercut is that it’s more “fleshed out.”  Which, I certainly would hope so- this thing is literally twice as much movie!  Actually, it kinda sounds like he just took a Cyborg film, and crammed it into this one - and if that’s the case, why didn’t he just make that Cyborg film?  Or, if it fits better thematically to have him be the breakout character here, then take some other feature length chunk of this and make another movie.  Do Reign of the Supermen or something.  

Still, maybe as a streaming product - where viewers can watch at their own pace and comfort- four hours of JL might actually be a good thing (I guess I’ll find out if I ever spring for HBO...).  It’s like with the LotR films.  If I’m watching at home from my couch, then sure- I’ll take the extra character and world building moments of the extended editions.  However, I also get why the theatrical cuts exist.  The base model RotK is 3 1/3 hours, and that’s pretty much my mental and physical limit.  I’m generally fine with 2.5 for a big epic - so if there is a Snyderian version that could hit that mark, then maybe that’s the one that would’ve been a hit.  It’s the one I might have sat in a theater for, in any case.

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The Snyder Cut turned out to be better than I'd feared, but that's not exactly ringing praise. It corrected the tonal whiplash of the Whedon version, and excised the worst of his cringeworthy moments. I think Flash benefited the most, going from an incompetent clown to believably awkward. And taciturn, matter-of-fact Batman works better than all-over-the-map quipster Batman—not a big surprise, as he's the character that Snyder's tone and style are most closely aligned with. Getting rid of all the tacked-on imperiled Russian civilian scenes was a huge improvement, as was having the characters try to keep the third Mother Box from Steppenwolf and fail rather than just forgetting about it, and losing those horrible "Do you bleed?" and "You smell good" lines.

On the down side, this version also omits some of the character interaction scenes that gave the theatrical release warmth and fleshed out the team coming together and bonding: Alfred and Bruce's familiar banter, Diana and Bruce's discussion about why she hadn't fully stepped up into a leadership role, Barry and Victor's graveside comparison of origin stories and musing about the morality of what they were planning to do, the team debate over whether or not resurrecting Superman was a good idea at its core. Diana's role in particular suffered the loss of those moments. Weirdly she also seemed less impressive in the fight sequences—I recall her making much more of an impression as the team's heavy hitter in the Whedon version, even without delivering the fatal coup de grace to Steppenwolf. Speaking of the villain, Ciaran Hinds' performance didn't come through nearly as well with all that vocal manipulation and the more simplistic dialog, and the character redesign looked like an edgy 13-year-old's take on the character. Most surprising to me was that while Victor's story was more central to the plot and he had a lot more screen time, Whedon got better performances out of Ray Fisher. Turns out it was his quieter, more nuanced scenes with Joe Morton, Gal Gadot, and Ezra Miller that made him a standout to me in the theatrical release.

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I liked it, I didn't love it. I wouldn't say it was "darker" than the Whedon cut, the word I would use is serious. It did have moments of humor, just not the frat boy humor from the theatrical version.  I found I didn't miss much at all from the theatrical version. I'm surprised Arthur's "my man" remained but it made a bit more sense in that he was the most mistrusting of Victor in the beginning but now he's come around. I liked the fleshing out of Victor and Barry and making Arthur a bit more serious.

While I was glad we got to see Kiersey Clemons in the Snyder cut, that entire sequence was way too long and almost could have remained on the cutting room floor. The slo-mo scenes were too slow and too long and I could have done entirely without Batman's nightmare.

I enjoyed everything with Superman, especially his scenes at the farm and hearing the voices of his fathers bringing him fully back. And I loved the black suit.

The movie was still entirely too long but now I know where I can fast forward on re-watch.

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5 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

I think Flash benefited the most, going from an incompetent clown to believably awkward.

One of the high points of the movie for me was a Flash scene—the one at the end when he has to save the day after the Unity explodes and kills the rest of the Justice League.  I don’t understand the pretend physics of what Barry did, but the CGI of the ground reforming under his feet as he ran, culminating in the entire landscape (and the League) being reconstituted as Barry approached Victor to give him the charge, and as Barry was earnestly giving himself a pep talk/ healing himself from what looked like a mortal injury, was quite affecting and an actual good use of slow motion.  The CGI bombast right before that (with all the darkness and parademon destruction) was an assault on the eyes, but at this moment the CGI and Barry’s role were really affecting, I thought.

I also liked the repetitive guitar riff that culminated in an orchestral swell as Barry was saving the day here so much, that I looked up the portion of the soundtrack that accompanied this action, and it is “At the Speed Force” from 1:30 forward.  On the other side of the soundtrack spectrum, I strongly disliked what the closed captioning called something like “ancient lamentation music” whenever Wonder Woman or the Amazons were doing something.  It was so intrusive.

Edited by Peace 47
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19 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

Even though, as I said in my prior post, I struggled with how Superman came back amnesic and cruel

I’ve still only seen the Whedon version, and at the time I was rolling my eyes at the “everyone comes back from the resurrection pits vicious and feral” trope. 

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Ponderous, gloomy, pretentious, too dark, etc. are all adjectives aptly used on Zack  Snyder but at the same time I'm glad we have his version.

The  overall story still drags (Steppenwolf will never be an interesting villain even if you created a thousand cuts, and for being a veteran actor it's uncanny how Ben Affleck's Batman sucks the air and energy out of any scene he's front and center), but there is , dare I say it, an epic grandeur to some of the Snyder  passages.   

That type of  visual beauty you don't usually get in the peppy  Marvel movies that was the template Whedon glued on.    The Amazons defense of the Mother Box, Aguaman's connection to the sea, etc,   Other than Affleck,  I think the character arcs of the other heroes are fleshed out well, and even the new actors/characters introduced, such as Ray Fisher , Ezra Miller, Jason,  are more than up to the task.    Connie Neilsen's  Queen Hipployta,  is pitch perfect with how she projects so much with her presence.   

Sidenote:  DC universe is just always weird to me,  there are the fictional  Metropolis, Central City, Gotham, etc  and than clearly London, Paris, etc in the "real world". 

I know everyone says this is a one and out, but the cynic in me  wouldn't rule out a sequel down the line if the money justifies it...

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7 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

One of the high points of the movie for me was a Flash scene—the one at the end when he has to save the day after the Unity explodes and kills the rest of the Justice League.

I missed seeing the Flash scene under Gotham Harbor where he was scared & Batman told him "Just save one person.". It really emphasized how Flash wasn't really "up" for all this at first, & kinda had to grow into being... pardon the reference... one of the brave & the bold. That little step into being a true hero was a nice touch in the Whedon version.

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As I told my friend, this was better but certainly not good. 40% of the runtime was slo-mo musical interludes. It just felt self-indulgent. This man needs an editor.

While beautiful and the best scene of the entire 4 hour slog, I have no clue what Barry was doing during that amazing scene where he was...traveling back in time through space, I think? Can someone enlighten me?

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On 3/18/2021 at 10:22 PM, dwmarch said:

For the Amazonians, was their collapsing stadium for the mama box a bug or a feature? You seal it up and then collapse it into the sea or did that happen because of the chaos going on inside? Seems like they should have known better than to just drop a house on the kinds of enemies who generally have no trouble surviving that. At least the Atlanteans had Amber Heard guarding theirs, which I guess means they were worried about Jack Sparrow pinching it. But as it turns out, the best security for one of these things is to just leave it in your closet under a pile of sweaty old football gear. Bad guys won't even come near it.

...

To defeat Steppenwolf the good guys pulled a Thanos on him and rewound time back to when it was possible for them to defeat him. That's... handy.

Darkseid just kinda forgot about Earth, the place where he got his ass kicked back in the day? That was clunky. Also, as I'm not super into the lore, I don't get this anti-life equation business and how it relates to the mama boxes. To me they were all part of a package deal (as that seemed to be how they were presented in flashback) so I saw Steppenwolf getting all excited and making a call to say "holy shit! That thing we came here to look for is actually here!" Whereas I think it's supposed to be more like Terminator 3 where the T-X has the mission of going after John Connor's lieutenants but changes priorities once she discovers that John himself is nearby.

The idea seemed to be that the place could be used to trap someone inside. This strategy seems particularly poor against someone who had the capability to teleport. Not that Steppenwolf even needed that.

That's one change from the theatrical that's not so great. Because when you have a hero who can apparently rewind time whenever he feels like it, there's no real stakes. Of course, an unlikely to come sequel might establish consequences for Barry's time-travel fuckery, and the Knightmare sequences we see in BvS and this might also be a result. But still...

Another thing that's not so great about this version is the notion that Darkseid personally led the attack on Earth millenia ago, took a L, and then forgetting about it. That's just not something that Darkseid would do. I could buy that Darkseid delegated the conquest of what seemed to be an insignificant world to minion Steppenwolf and when Steppenwolf took a L, Darkseid was busy with the other 100,000 worlds he was conquering. 

Darkseid has traditionally had dual motivations: conquering planets and turning them into versions of his own home planet of Apokalips, and solving the anti-life equation, which would allow him to mentally dominate all living beings and turn them into zombie-like slaves or some such. So from what I take it, he was just attempting the first goal when he gotten beaten and had no clue that the potential solution to anti-life had any connection to Earth. Steppenwolf found out once he had a couple of the boxes going, and told Darkseid.

On 3/19/2021 at 9:14 AM, absnow54 said:

I watched the theatrical release again, since it had been several years, and I don't know if Snyder benefited from lessons learned surrounding the film's criticism, but his version was much better. A lot of commentary said that his film wasn't as light or funny as Wheadon's version, but honestly, all of the best jokes from the movie were in the Snyder cut ("I'm rich" "Did I not talk before" "I bought the bank.")

The movie was definitely bloated. Fight sequences lasted way longer than they needed to. Slow motion sequences went on forever. The epilogue from Luthor's escape on needed to be axed. I think every scene in the movie could have been trimmed to keep the pace going. (I was screaming at my TV to get to the point already during the Joker scene!)

I really enjoyed them fleshing out Victor/Cyborg's story and his complicated relationship with his father. That was all a great addition. I'm also glad that they gave Barry/Flash more to do in the final battle than push a pickup truck really fast. Another improvement was changing the narrative around Superman's resurrection. They clearly framed that Steppenwolf and Darkseid were invading now because they were afraid of Superman, and that they could only defeat them with his help. I found that better than making it about Bruce's guilt, and whatever argument he had with Diana over it. The final battle was long, but it gave everyone something to do, where as the theatrical release it seemed like everyone was just standing around while waiting for their cue. Arthur/Aquaman did get some extra development, but was still largely just kind of there.

Still, the best version of this movie is going to be the 2 1/2 hour version of the Snyder Cut that a fan edits and posts on YouTube.

I'm an idiot, because I assumed it would have been Clark's, but now I'm realizing that enough time had passed from his death to build an elaborate memorial and for Martha's house to be foreclosed, so obviously far more than a month or two had passed.

I just watched the theatrical cut after having watched the Snyder cut last night. The theatrical cut had Lois saying "You smell good" and Clark responding "Did I not before?" "Did I not talk before" would not have made much sense because in the theatrical cut, newly resurrected Clark was talking, including the smack talking to Batman. The Whedon cut had a few scenes that I missed from the Snyder version, including the Superman and Flash race at the end, and the notion that Superman saved a whole building of civilians while Flash merely got the pickup. There were a lot of Flash-as-Xander/Wash/Topher, some of which worked and most of which didn't. I was somewhat surprised that the bit with Barry calling himself a "snackhole" was not a Whedon addition.

One thing that I didn't realize until I read a criticism about the Snyder cut was that Whedon's version went hard on minimizing the role of people of color.

Cyborg was much diminished in the theatrical cut, as was his father (although in the theatrical cut, Silas lives so there could be future adventures with the two of them.)

Ryan Choi wasn't in the theatrical film at all.

Iris West, although she wasn't overtly identified as such, also not in the theatrical film.

Martian Manhunter, who had been shown to us as a black general, also didn't have much or any presence.

Which is not to say that Joss was deliberately reducing the roles of people of color, or that those editing choices were not  justified. But they were things that happened.

18 minutes ago, JessePinkman said:

While beautiful and the best scene of the entire 4 hour slog, I have no clue what Barry was doing during that amazing scene where he was...traveling back in time through space, I think? Can someone enlighten me?

Yes. Barry's connection to the Speed Force allows him to time travel, and as presented here, he reversed time enough after the good guys lost to make it so the good guys could win a la Superman 1.

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Thanks @Chicago Redshirt. I completely missed that they'd lost. This movie very hard to pay attention. Mostly because every time the action got going it slowed down. I just don't understand it. Slow motion loses all impact when you use it every 20 minutes!

The fact that most of what was removed from the 2017 release is Cyborg's story feels very pointed. No wonder the movie felt so disjointed, the plot basically hinged on Cyborg's involvement and character development!

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I'm going to play devil's advocate and say they cut the Flash and Cyborg stuff from the theatrical release because they probably thought they could be saved later for their possible solo movies or the sequel.

Edited by VCRTracking

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18 hours ago, caracas1914 said:

Ponderous, gloomy, pretentious, too dark, etc. are all adjectives aptly used on Zack  Snyder but at the same time I'm glad we have his version.

Lorenzo, of the Tom & Lorenzo podcast, said that “There’s something to be said for artistic vision,” in praising this movie while maintaining his position that he is not a particular fan of Snyder’s aesthetic, and I thought that was a succinct way to put it. I went to YouTube to rewatch some key scenes from Whedon’s version to compare to Snyder’s.  Whedon’s comes across as so disjointed.  His reshoot footage chops up the flow of scenes, and more often than not, it was to insert tonally dissonant jokes or to change some plot points (for the worse).  It does reveal that a consistent vision is probably better. 

9 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

That's one change from the theatrical that's not so great. Because when you have a hero who can apparently rewind time whenever he feels like it, there's no real stakes.

I could be wrong, but I got the impression that Barry couldn’t go faster than light to rewind time by any significant amount, probably just a few seconds.  It was only because he was both far enough away from the blast to have that millisecond to slip into the Speed Force as it was coming to overtake him, and also because he only needed to rewind things a few seconds (to give Victor the charge) that he was able to save the day.  But like you said, I think they were also setting up that there will be consequences to “breaking the rule,” because Barry broke the rule twice here (to resurrect Superman and to reverse the Unity explosion), and both times, Barry mentioned that this was a transgression, so it seemed intended to set something up.

@JessePinkman, the more I think I about it, the more I agree with you that Flash’s time reversal is the best scene of the movie, and the more it is becoming one of my favorite scenes in a comic book movie ever (I’ve rewatched that scene about 3 times, lol).  I might analogize it to the airplane rescue scene Superman Returns:  an iconic scene that I could watch an infinite number of times, even if the movie overall has some issues.  It is beautiful, and I love that long shot of how tiny Barry looks (with the flashes under his feet when running) as the street and buildings behind him roll back into existence.

I didn’t understand all the anti-life equation stuff until you elaborated here, @Chicago Redshirt.  Does that imply that the reason that Superman loses his mind in the Knightmare premonition is not  solely because Lois died, but because Darkseid was using the anti-life equation on Clark at a vulnerable moment (like with Darkseid’s hand on his shoulder) to assert mind control over him?  That would make those Knigtmare sequences sit better for me because I was really struggling with Clark turning into a crazed murderer after his beloved dies.

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10 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I'm going to play devil's advocate and say they cut the Flash and Cyborg stuff from the theatrical release because they probably thought they could be saved later for their possible solo movies or the sequel.

I'd guess that it was more likely that Whedon's personal animosity to Ray Fisher, Whedon's vision of Flash as an awkward rookie, WB's wanting to have the movie focus more on the Big Three, or other factors. Whatever the motivation, it seems like it was a bad choice. 

1 hour ago, Peace 47 said:

I could be wrong, but I got the impression that Barry couldn’t go faster than light to rewind time by any significant amount, probably just a few seconds.  It was only because he was both far enough away from the blast to have that millisecond to slip into the Speed Force as it was coming to overtake him, and also because he only needed to rewind things a few seconds (to give Victor the charge) that he was able to save the day.  But like you said, I think they were also setting up that there will be consequences to “breaking the rule,” because Barry broke the rule twice here (to resurrect Superman and to reverse the Unity explosion), and both times, Barry mentioned that this was a transgression, so it seemed intended to set something up.

@JessePinkman, the more I think I about it, the more I agree with you that Flash’s time reversal is the best scene of the movie, and the more it is becoming one of my favorite scenes in a comic book movie ever (I’ve rewatched that scene about 3 times, lol).  I might analogize it to the airplane rescue scene Superman Returns:  an iconic scene that I could watch an infinite number of times, even if the movie overall has some issues.  It is beautiful, and I love that long shot of how tiny Barry looks (with the flashes under his feet when running) as the street and buildings behind him roll back into existence.

I didn’t understand all the anti-life equation stuff until you elaborated here, @Chicago Redshirt.  Does that imply that the reason that Superman loses his mind in the Knightmare premonition is not  solely because Lois died, but because Darkseid was using the anti-life equation on Clark at a vulnerable moment (like with Darkseid’s hand on his shoulder) to assert mind control over him?  That would make those Knigtmare sequences sit better for me because I was really struggling with Clark turning into a crazed murderer after his beloved dies.

The problem is sort of inherent in the Barry Allen Flash, many versions of which do have the ability to go to the past or the future largely unfettered. At least some of those versions do have Barry coming to realize the consequences of willy-nilly time travel and thus not engaging in it. 

Even if Barry were confined to rewinding time, say 30 seconds at a go, nothing would stop him from rewinding time another 30 seconds, and another and another until he got to when he wanted. And even he only got one 30-second reset per day or something, 30 seconds when you've got Flash-levels of speed is an eternity.

Yeah, my understanding, based on nothing in particular, that either because Lois had been killed, a depressed Superman didn't engage enough in the fight against Darkseid, allowing Big D to obtain anti-life and gain control of Superman, or Lois was specifically killed in order to weaken Superman's resistance to anti-life, which then allowed Darkseid to take control of him.

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Even with the shaved-down screentime and the loss of some of his backstory, I still thought Victor played a central role in the Whedon version. I'd like to have kept the flashback scenes with his mother, but in my opinion his initial scene with Silas ("It's weird that you thought I meant me.") and his meeting with Diana were deeper and more effective than the Snyder versions. Those are the ones I'd put in my demo reel if I were Ray Fisher, regardless of how much of a dick the guy directing them was.

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On 3/19/2021 at 10:14 AM, absnow54 said:

"Did I not talk before"

Actually, Whedon did change that.  In the theatrical she says, "You smell good" and he replies, "Did I not before?"  Another joke that was definitely filmed by ZS but not in this version was telling Arthur, "I hear you can talk to fish." But, that one I always assumed was mainly to help the general audience make the connection between this giant Khal Drogo-looking dude and the guy from the Super Friends. Post-James Wan's billion dollar Aquaman movie, that doesn't need to be lampshaded quite so much.

On 3/19/2021 at 10:14 AM, absnow54 said:

I'm an idiot, because I assumed it would have been Clark's, but now I'm realizing that enough time had passed from his death to build an elaborate memorial and for Martha's house to be foreclosed, so obviously far more than a month or two had passed.

It is Clark's. The #WayneLane story from those storyboards had been nixed before they ever started filming JL. If that were going to be a thing, it would have been in this film since it took place between the end of BvS and Superman's resurrection, and she would have dumped Bruce to take care of Clark.

I thought Alfred hovering over Diana while she was making tea was hilarious; he just couldn't stop being the butler even if she was making it only for herself.

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6 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

Does that imply that the reason that Superman loses his mind in the Knightmare premonition is not  solely because Lois died, but because Darkseid was using the anti-life equation on Clark at a vulnerable moment (like with Darkseid’s hand on his shoulder) to assert mind control over him?  That would make those Knigtmare sequences sit better for me because I was really struggling with Clark turning into a crazed murderer after his beloved dies.

That is 100% the intent. The shock and anguish of Lois's death gives Darkseid just enough of an opening to use Anti-Life on him.

I wonder if the "league of our own" lines from the Lex & Deathstroke conversation in the theatrical were originally filmed by Zack to set up a version of the second movie from the storyboards, or if they were Whedon's addition.  That conversation as shown here was definitely angled towards setting up Affleck's The Batman movie that never happened. (I still don't know how someone could direct and star in a movie of this scale; a more grounded piece, sure, but watching Zack keep the whole finished picture in his head in a big green room in the BTS videos is amazing to watch.)

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I have a question that's been nagging me since the theatrical release...how will they explain Clark being alive? I know they can make something good up for Superman, because he's an alien etc. But Clark Kent had an open casket service. Lots of people were there, including his boss at the Daily Planet.  Is this explained in the comics?

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2 hours ago, jah1986 said:

I have a question that's been nagging me since the theatrical release...how will they explain Clark being alive? I know they can make something good up for Superman, because he's an alien etc. But Clark Kent had an open casket service. Lots of people were there, including his boss at the Daily Planet.  Is this explained in the comics?

In the comics, Clark was just missing, not dead with an open casket, and when Superman returned, he “found” Clark, who had been allegedly trapped somewhere (with food and water, haha).  So sort of a thin story, even without a body.  No idea how they would explain it here, and maybe they just were intending to ignore it.

I also wondered in this movie how they dug Clark up in Kansas and returned to Metropolis the same night, but I wasn’t sure if this was a Smallville situation where Metropolis is a reasonable drive from Smallville, or if the Flash just pushed the truck quickly after they loaded Clark up like he pushed that Russian family in the theatrical release.

Edited by Peace 47 · Reason: No idea why the spacing looks like that. I tried to fix it and made it worse.
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On 3/21/2021 at 1:09 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I'd guess that it was more likely that Whedon's personal animosity to Ray Fisher, Whedon's vision of Flash as an awkward rookie, WB's wanting to have the movie focus more on the Big Three, or other factors. Whatever the motivation, it seems like it was a bad choice. 

It's really clear why the people of color and certain characters have their arcs shaved down... The movie is too damn long.

The first thing they were going to task Whedon with doing was turning this movie that is the size of two movies down to one. There are things involving Flash, Cyborg and Aquaman that makes everything too long as messes with pacing. When trying to cut down the movie, these were going to be the things they cut first.

Martian Man Hunter just doesn't need to be there. Him being there or not being there doesn't affect anything.

Yes, all of the added story for certain characters helped fleshed them out and root for them more. That's why they shouldn't have rushed this movie in the first place. Instead they wanted to do things backwards with the characters outside of the big three. Establish all three of them in team up movie and then giving them their own stories. It's too much. 

Yep, this movie was better. Of course it was. More time for the cgi. It's expanded so there is more time for character growth and plot motivation.

It's still not a great movie with a ton of its own problems. But, yes, at least we have this. I always rather have a single vision than a vision filled with a different creator and studio interference.

Edited by Racj82
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1 hour ago, Peace 47 said:

In the comics, Clark was just missing, not dead with an open casket, and when Superman returned, he “found” Clark, who had been allegedly trapped somewhere (with food and water, haha).  So sort of a thin story, even without a body.  No idea how they would explain it here, and maybe they just were intending to ignore it.

He also had "plenty of room to exercise" to explain his perfect health after being buried underneath the rubble for weeks.  They also had a shapeshifter (a version of Supergirl, I think) to ensure that Superman and Clark Kent were seen together.  Maybe Martian Manhunter could do the same offscreen.

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So we finally get the fabled Snyder cut, and while I am not a huge fan of Zach Snyder as a director, I did think this was a definite improvement on the Joss Whedon cut up theatrical movie. I still think this has some major issues and is really not a great movie or anything, it is still A movie with A specific artistic vision, and that is something I can at least understand. Its not some kind of strange Frankenstein's monster of a movie that feels like several movies, all with contradicting tones and story elements, all torn apart and awkwardly stitched back together again. Zach Snyder and Joss Whedon are just so different as film makers, their styles just do not work well together. If they had actually been collaborating it might have actually been interesting, as their flaws and strengths are so different. Zach Snyder can create really beautiful and dynamic visuals, but his character work can be dull and his dialogue pretentious. Joss Whedon is well known for his memorable and snappy dialogue and creates interesting and unique characters and dynamics, but he is visually pretty dull and tends to still direct like he's on a 90s TV budget. Put them together, and maybe they can combine their strengths, like some kind of...Directors League. 

This was definitely the better movie, and I was actually surprised to see that a lot of the humor was still here, just toned down from some of the more obvious frat boy humor, and a lot of character beats seemed to still be around. Despite the ridiculous length, this is a slightly toned down Snyder, and while it still has that air of pretention, its WAY less up its own ass than I expected it to be. I think Cyborg and Flash probably got the best cuts, although it makes me wonder why they didn't just make individual Cyborg and Flash movies, considering they clearly had enough material for them, other than DC wanting to hurry up their Justice League movie because they want to play catch up with Marvel. Characterization wise The Flash again got the best cut here, he is way less clowny here but while still being very much of comic relief who is inexperienced but still trying his best. Wonder Woman ended up getting the most cuts, and while she is just fine here, I missed some of her scenes and felt like she could have been used better. Some of the cuts, like the civilians in the final fight, make total sense, but I did miss some parts of the Whedon version, especially some of the talks between Flash and Cyborg and Bruce and Diana. I even missed the post credit between Flash and Superman, which was a nice note to end on, unlike the bloated twenty minute post credit tease for a movie that will probably never happen that was somehow not post credits but in the actual movie. Also, this is a really small thing, but there was this brief scene in the theatrical cut where Steppenwolf is getting the box from the Amazons and he takes a second before disappearing to get all creepy with Hippolyta about he wants to make the Amazons his harem and she will grow to "love him" and its super gross and unneeded and I flagged it instantly as a Whedon line even in the theater. The guy just loves having his villains make creepily gendered and sexualized threats towards his female characters even if it really has nothing to do with the villains actual characterization, goes nowhere, feels gratuitous and sleazy, and says nothing but that this villain is, in fact, the villain and that the female hero is, in fact, a female hero, because women can only have specifically gendered things happen to them. And, as I suspected, it was not in this cut. 

This movie seriously needed an editor, no way did this movie need to be this freaking long. So much slow motion, so many haunting wails in the soundtrack, so many long ass set pieces, even when I think Snyder is trying to hold back on the pretention, he just cant resist. I think two and a half hours would have worked just fine, cut back on the slow motion and the super dramatic staring. I did like some of the extended scenes, I thought the longer action scenes were better and showed off more of the characters styles and powers, and I am glad they extended the stories of Flash and Cyborg, plus Clark getting his memories back by hearing both of his dads on the ship was a nice moment. It did feel actually complete, but there were so many scenes where it just kept going way longer than was needed, especially at the end. Also, why was Bruce whispering so damn much? Speak up man, we aren't even in the Batcave! This had a lot of good things going for it and I am glad that I got to see this movies original vision without behind the scenes drama and another director taking over and being hurt by studio mandates, and is certainly much more complete than what we got in theaters, but its still very flawed. Its basically what I expected, if a bit better. 

Edited by tennisgurl
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So .. Zach Snyder's Justice League - - move over Tyler Perry, someone else is tagging their movies..
We braced ourselves for four hours of slo-mo-epic-seriousness and watched. And watched..

Was the Snyder version better than the theatrical version?: Yes. Most definitely.  So many things made more sense. 
Did the Snyder version have its own problems?  Yes.  Most definitely.   So much slow motion.  So many ballads sung.   The 4:3 aspect ratio (why?). 

18 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Zach Snyder can create really beautiful and dynamic visuals, but his character work can be dull and his dialogue pretentious.

Agreed. I have thought he would make a really good cinematographer. 

The Flash was still unsatisfying to me.  He still runs funny and his overly-armored costume makes him look small. Am I supposed to believe that Barry Allen can stock a warehouse lair with more equipment than a BestBuy warehouse - yet cannot manage to put together enough money to get into a criminal justice school? 

I find Snyder's version of Wonder Woman and the Amazons much more satisfying than Patty Jenkin's 1984 version. Even without the ability to fly.  Something about Diana being a god-level badass unapologetically and nonchalantly appeals to me.  The WW solo action sequence in the museum was near perfect - especially her taking a moment to make sure everyone was okay afterwards.  There were no wasted minutes there.

This version really benefited from having the Cyborg story fleshed out. (heh)  It was overwrought and overdramatic, per Snyder, but it really held the movie together.  The 'miracle' of getting the Bat-troop-carrier to fly seemed a bit much.  And Cyborg's unlimited abilities bordered on magical powers.  The Cyborg costume also never looked real. (Side question:  without his hoodie and sweats, is Cyborg basically running around naked?) 

Steppenwolf and Darkseid still looked like cartoons.  Steppenwolf's costume got bedazzled, but his face seemed to have gotten smaller, so there was no emotional connection.  Snyder really should have used actual actors as the basis for the villains - it would have helped.
But the defeat of Steppenwolf was much less silly in this version. 

Martian Manhunter? He seemed pointless.  It was odd that he admitted to doing nothing during the whole destruction of Metropolis by Zodd event.

Also pointless?  Batman's  (k)nightmare dream-vision in The Epilogue and the inclusion of Joker therein.  Are we supposed to believe that if Superman actually turned evil he wouldn't just kill everyone with his heat vision from five miles away?
And I still  have same complaint as before concerning Superman's Mom having financial issues: that should have never been a thing.  Clark could have found a gold mine with his abilities and set Martha up for life long, long before he ever was in danger of dying. 

Basically, what I felt about the Snyder version of Justice League was the same thing I felt about the tape recording that Silas left for Cyborg.  I felt bad for Silas when Victor cut him off by destroying the tape player. 
..but then.. when Victor went back and played the rest of the message.. I was like: "please shut up now - you have gone on for far too long." 

Edited by shrewd.buddha
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7 hours ago, jah1986 said:

I have a question that's been nagging me since the theatrical release...how will they explain Clark being alive? I know they can make something good up for Superman, because he's an alien etc. But Clark Kent had an open casket service. Lots of people were there, including his boss at the Daily Planet.  Is this explained in the comics?

To be completely honest, I don't believe this series of movies ever intended to return to "Clark working at the Daily Planet" (and yes, that does leave the gaping hole of "dead guy helping his mom move furniture in front of everyone").  I feel the original intent was to use Superman and Batman initially to set up a launchpad for the rest of the DC pantheon, and let those heroes have the solo films they never got before (and if WW84 isn't "the film Diana would have had in the 90's," I don't know what would be). That's the simplest explanation I can think of, anyway.

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On 3/21/2021 at 12:46 AM, JessePinkman said:

40% of the runtime was slo-mo musical interludes.

We had a shirtless Aquaman walking into the ocean twice!

It's too bad that Snyder chose to include everything he envisioned for the original release instead of making the best version given the current circumstances That would have allowed him to cut a lot of the fat. Even he had to recognize that the Martian Manhunter scenes added nothing. The Snyder Cut was better than the original, but I think there is still a better version. Now that the hardest core fanboys have their version, maybe there will be a Snyder Cut of the Snyder Cut.

 

 

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Let's be real, since JLSC  turned out to be a showcase for the new streaming HBO MAX there was no need for a 2 1/2 hour theatrical release. 

4+ plus hours fills the bill.

 

 

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5 hours ago, xaxat said:

It's too bad that Snyder chose to include everything he envisioned for the original release instead of making the best version given the current circumstances That would have allowed him to cut a lot of the fat. Even he had to recognize that the Martian Manhunter scenes added nothing.

The man ran Hallelujah over the closing credits and used it in the trailer even after its use in Watchmen was mocked endlessly. I don't think he actually has ANY capability to recognize a bad idea, though he's apparently a lot more open to listening to other people's good ones on the front end than Whedon is.

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On 3/23/2021 at 2:07 PM, Bruinsfan said:

The man ran Hallelujah over the closing credits and used it in the trailer even after its use in Watchmen was mocked endlessly. I don't think he actually has ANY capability to recognize a bad idea, though he's apparently a lot more open to listening to other people's good ones on the front end than Whedon is.

Apparently Hallelujah was his daughter Autumn's favourite song, so... I'm giving him a quiet pass for that one. 

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12 hours ago, Racj82 said:

It's really clear why the people of color and certain characters have their arcs shaved down... The movie is too damn long.

The first thing they were going to task Whedon with doing was turning this movie that is the size of two movies down to one. There are things involving Flash, Cyborg and Aquaman that makes everything too long as messes with pacing. When trying to cut down the movie, these were going to be the things they cut first.

Martian Man Hunter just doesn't need to be there. Him being there or not being there doesn't affect anything.

Yes, all of the added story for certain characters helped fleshed them out and root for them more. That's why they shouldn't have rushed this movie in the first place. Instead they wanted to do things backwards with the characters outside of the big three. Establish all three of them in team up movie and then giving them their own stories. It's too much. 

Yep, this movie was better. Of course it was. More time for the cgi. It's expanded so there is more time for character growth and plot motivation.

It's still not a great movie with a ton of its own problems. But, yes, at least we have this. I always rather have a single vision than a vision filled with a different creator and studio interference.

Agreed with all this.  The reason Flash & Cyborg's (& even Aquaman's) time was cut was that if you (i.e. picture "you" in the role of editor or even WB exec) are presented with a 4+ hour movie, you're gonna insist on cutting out the "lesser" characters & focus more on The Big Three: Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman.  If 1.5-2.0 hours *have to go*, which for a theatrical release they absolutely have to (or split it up, but apparently that wasn't an option), then those secondary characters' backstories simply have to go.

DC didn't set up their universe like Marvel did by giving them all solo movies first, so your pitch, your trailer, to [Generic Audience Member] that they need go see this movie, waaay back in 2017, is **OMG!! Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman ALL IN ONE MOVIE for the first time!! OMG!!** oh, & also these other people you, the general public, either barely care about or have never heard of are in it.

Absolutely agree that the movie was much better for including all that cut background stuff on Aquaman, Cyborg, Flash, even Martian Manhunter, but there was no chance it was making it into a 2-2.25 hour initial release.  They hadn't done the groundwork & just wanted to skip the whole 10 year process Marvel went through & jump straight to Infinity War.

Edited by ICantDoThatDave
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4 hours ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

Agreed with all this.  The reason Flash & Cyborg's (& even Aquaman's) time was cut was that if you (i.e. picture "you" in the role of editor or even WB exec) are presented with a 4+ hour movie, you're gonna insist on cutting out the "lesser" characters & focus more on The Big Three: Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman.  If 1.5-2.0 hours *have to go*, which for a theatrical release they absolutely have to (or split it up, but apparently that wasn't an option), then those secondary characters' backstories simply have to go.

DC didn't set up their universe like Marvel did by giving them all solo movies first, so your pitch, your trailer, to [Generic Audience Member] that they need go see this movie, waaay back in 2017, is **OMG!! Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman ALL IN ONE MOVIE for the first time!! OMG!!** oh, & also these other people you, the general public, either barely care about or have never heard of are in it.

Absolutely agree that the movie was much better for including all that cut background stuff on Aquaman, Cyborg, Flash, even Martian Manhunter, but there was no chance it was making it into a 2-2.25 hour initial release.  They hadn't done the groundwork & just wanted to skip the whole 10 year process Marvel went through & jump straight to Infinity War.

This is what some people aren't getting (not here. Other places) Whether it was Snyder or Whedon, we were never getting THIS movie in 2017. Snyder would have been forced to cut a lot of this stuff out. 

Also, I think the best movie here is neither movie but a combination of both. I know Whedon is the ultimate villain these days, but every decision he made wasn't bad.

People keep calling his humor frat boy humor which isn't accurate at all. He likes snappy verbal jokes. Working humor bits around the characters. Sometimes they work like with Aquaman sitting on the lasso, sometimes they don't like Batman detailing his injuries on the ground. His dialogue just won't come out natural for everyone in this movie. I could see the line I'm about him bleeding internally coming from Tony Stark and bringing the house down with laughter.

And I don't even have a problem with the flash landing on Wonder Woman or that he's done something similar as if directors never to that. It was a play on Flash and his awkwardness. It's a shoulder shrug from me. 

But, while I think the final battle works much better here, I loved parts of the Whedon version. I know people complain about the saving civilians thing but Ioved watching Superman casually saving the day and not trying to be badass. Cyborg and Superman just busting into laughter after they saved the day. I miss seeing cyborg genuinely laugh. And I miss the race at the very end as well.

There are pluses and minuses to both. 

Also people say that marvel did the same thing as DC by debuting multiple avengers without solo movies. The difference here is that Hawkeye and Black Widow as well as Hullk since solo movies were a no go after a while all has there arcs play out through multiple movies. They didn't bring them in during one movie and created quasi origin stories for them. 

It could work but you would need to do what WB wanted to do years ago. Just do a justice league movie. Start with that. But, just have them already be a team. Already heroes. Don't worry about introducing people. Doing it half way doesn't work.

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1 hour ago, Racj82 said:

And I don't even have a problem with the flash landing on Wonder Woman or that he's done something similar as if directors never to that. It was a play on Flash and his awkwardness.

...his awkwardness just happening to cause him to motorboat an attractive woman. A million other ways to make the banana peel joke didn’t have to involve a scene where even the actress refused to participate. 

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I'm trying to imagine the first Avengers movie if they didn't have the first solo Thor and Captain America movies come out just before to introduce them. The only characters the audience would know wouid be Tony and Natasha and Bruce. The last because the Hulk is already so famous in pop culture to people who've never even read comics. You'd have to have way more time spent explaining who Cap and Thor then was in the actual movie.

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On 3/22/2021 at 9:44 AM, Racj82 said:

It's really clear why the people of color and certain characters have their arcs shaved down... The movie is too damn long.

Personally, I accept the explanation that originally came out re: Iris's scene being removed.  She was Rick Famuyiwa's casting, and he was already off of the Flash film before JL was released, so they removed that in case the next director wanted to use someone else. Plus, of course, the insane 2 hour limit that WB was trying to force on Snyder even before Autumn's death. Nice that Andy Muschietti is keeping Kiersey, btw!

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10 hours ago, kieyra said:

...his awkwardness just happening to cause him to motorboat an attractive woman. A million other ways to make the banana peel joke didn’t have to involve a scene where even the actress refused to participate. 

Yes, that's literally what he did was motorboat her if landing on someone equals motorboating. Cool.

My point is that I never felt any anger or vitriol for that stupid little joke. It's not the typical example of Joss humor since he has different ways of delivering his brand of humor. It's a dumb joke that didn't land. Tends to happen a lot with comedic moments. Not a year shall be shed over that joke being gone. I also didn't care one way or the other.

Eta: of course they could have done a different or much better joke highlighting Flash and his awkwardness. I'm just saying that's all I took it for. Not that it was good or great.

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53 minutes ago, Racj82 said:

Yes, that's literally what he did was motorboat her if landing on someone equals motorboating.

On the flip side, you're (consciously or unconsciously) downplaying it by using the phrase 'landed on her' versus 'landed with his face between her breasts'. 

Just keeping the playing field even. 

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2 hours ago, kieyra said:

On the flip side, you're (consciously or unconsciously) downplaying it by using the phrase 'landed on her' versus 'landed with his face between her breasts'. 

Just keeping the playing field even. 

 The scene is gone. I never cared about it and the movie never needed it.

Moving on.

More than anything, I want that proposed Cyborg/Flash movie they wanted to do eons ago. I thought they had fun chemistry with straight man/funny one dynamic. Also, Flash, in both versions, was so happy to get that fist bump at the end. Warms the heart.

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Do you know what happens to a Joss Whedon joke when it fails to land?

Spoiler

The same thing that happens to everything else.

 

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51 minutes ago, Chyromaniac said:

Do you know what happens to a Joss Whedon joke when it fails to land?

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The same thing that happens to everything else.

 

Perfect!

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1 hour ago, Chyromaniac said:

Do you know what happens to a Joss Whedon joke when it fails to land?

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The same thing that happens to everything else.

 

Good joke. But, I actually remember people laughing at the bit with Flash in theater. The lasso bit with Aquaman, superman flying by with a house, the brunch stuff. All of these things got genuine laughs in the theater. It became a thing later on that these types of bits ruined Snyder's movie. I've always felt that this wasn't the case. Miles will vary. I'm sure from moment one, all of Whedon's jokes fell flat for some people. I'm sure for some they came in ready to be pissed at any jokes because obviously that Whedon. My issues with 2017 go so far beyond that. Some of those jokes worked for me and some didn't but man there was so much more for me to dislike.

Also, jesus did the line in the first x men movie go over like a led balloon even back then. It's just a bad line no matter how it was said which is how Whedon defends the joke.

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I didn't mind the original film, but the Zach Synder cut was a lot better.  The plot made more sense and tied together better, and the characters were more likeable and developed.   Cyborg's origin tied in with the boxes very well (including the much better climax), and also explained the resurrection of Superman, without the unnecessary arguments in the theatrical version with Wonder Woman vs Batman.  Unlike "Batman vs. Superman", there was actually enough humor without the Joss Whedon additions, and the Team working together in the climax was actually fun.

I rewatched the theatrical version afterwards, and it's interesting how the same scenes could be re-ordered and used differently (eg. in montages). 

Granted, the idea to have a Justice League film while introducing Aquaman, The Flash and Cyborg in a single film was a bad idea, much less do it in 2 hours.  I think the 4 hours could have been cut to 3 hours while keeping the main story.  In the Synder cut, some action sequences dragged on for too long, as did some of the bad CGI stuff with Steppenwolf, plus all of those "teasers" for future films that will likely never be made.  The first part of the movie jumped around abruptly and could have been cut down.

As much as I enjoyed the Synder cut, his interviews about what he planned for the next 2 movies sound depressing and not what I would want to watch, with the apocalyptic future of Lois dying, Superman turning evil, Batman having to work with Joker, etc. 

 

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Did he seriously use "Song to the Siren" in a montage?

Can he leave one haunting song alone?  Jeez.

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Watching the Snyder Cut.  I don't remember if it featured in the original release, but at least twice there is a shot of a skyline and I see the very distinctive building in Chicago that I know as the Stone Container Building (the white building with the slanted parallelogram top that featured in "Adventures in Babysitting").  But then as the shot panned more right, it doesn't seem like this is fully Chicago, like maybe there was CGI or another cityscape was blended with it.

I can't recall what city this was supposed to be, is it supposed to be Gotham City?

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8 hours ago, blackwing said:

I can't recall what city this was supposed to be, is it supposed to be Gotham City?

I'm guessing Metropolis; they've used Chicago for Metropolis (and occasionally bits of Gotham) since Man of Steel. Zack once said something like, "Everyone recognizes New York, but Chicago you take out a couple of buildings and most people won't have any idea." (I have assumed he was referring to the Willis and John Hancock Towers.)

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Also HISHE's Snyder Cut Super Cafe:

 

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