S04.E14: Code Of Silence

[tarotx]

It's not illegal at this stage. She can make all the demands that she wants. Oliver just has legal options to go around her demands. Samantha is Emotionally Blackmailing Oliver but for a story to be full we should get the POV from all the parties involved. And I think it could have worked even without her knowing Green Arrow and Oliver are the same. I think it works better without her knowing. Her not wanting Oliver to have a full life with William and to not to share William with another women is perfectly believable and actually very common. Her being scared for William's safety would have her packing and moving herself underground. Right now she's just scared for herself and William's emotional well being. Though we don't really know that because Samantha and William are just a plot point. 

Imo, as the story stands right now, their POVs is actually irrelevant because what Samantha is asking Oliver to do is ILLEGAL.

 

The only way this would have worked for me is if Samantha knew Oliver was the Green Arrow, and asking him to lie was blackmail.

[ComicFan777]

Ok, how about this - since Barry basically brought everyone back from the dead to create the second timeline - the cost of the time travel was Oliver's brain.  He basically came back from the crossover without one, so that explains why he doesn't make sense anymore.  No brain, no sense.  We just need to join the crazy train until Curtis can make him a new one. Although we will have to wait until the end of the season because he is in the middle of fixing Felicity's spine first. [sorry, don't mind me, just so bitter about the storyline]

Edited February 18, 2016 by ComicFan777

[dtissagirl]

It's not illegal at this stage. She can make all the demands that she wants. Oliver just has legal options to go around her demands. Samantha is Emotionally Blackmailing Oliver but for a story to be full we should get the POV from all the parties involved.

 

Imo that makes everything even more stupider. It makes Samantha in particular A+ levels of dumb. She doesn't know Oliver won't seek legal options BECAUSE she doesn't know Oliver is the Green Arrow.  She's assuming a dude with several truckloads of money won't throw an army of lawyers at her because ??????? What is her rationale in thinking Oliver won't go to court? We know why, but she definitely doesn't.

[AyChihuahua]

Not for nothing, but there's a good chance a family court judge would actually give Oliver full custody, and BM visitation. Constitutionally parents have the right to parent. BOTH parents. A lot of family court judges would be very, very unhappy that she lied to him about the kid's very existence for ten years.

[Password]

Don't forget that check...

She didn't cash it but didn't burn it either.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Password

[bijoux]

So long, evil henchman!  He was funny at times.  I laughed at an exchange he had with Oliver earlier in the season where Oliver suggested he try another tactic for getting information from the prisoner.  His response was "What would you suggest?  Harsh language?"

 

That decision is really beyond my understanding because he's the only FB player that's either interesting or managed to spark with Oliver at least a little bit. The other two are flops and the new slave guy isn't showing that much potential.

 

SA trying to keep a staightface a few times at the party was the best part. Felicity had to invite Lance so basically no 

 

Both he and DR were on the verge of cracking up. It made me wonder how Paul Blackthorne prepped for that scene.

[tarotx]

We don't know Samantha's pov because she's not a real character. IRL she would fear lawyers but that doesn't mean she wouldn't make demands. She would be scared to death of Ollie's money and potential status in his community. That would be why she's letting Oliver see William in the first place. But Samantha's pov doesn't matter. I just think better writers would be able to tell this story line better. But these stories are always about ship angst and not character moments. We barely know Oliver's pov. Most of what we know of Oliver's thinking comes from SA's facial expressions. Imo.

Imo that makes everything even more stupider. It makes Samantha in particular A+ levels of dumb. She doesn't know Oliver won't seek legal options BECAUSE she doesn't know Oliver is the Green Arrow.  She's assuming a dude with several truckloads of money won't throw an army of lawyers at her because ??????? What is her rationale in thinking Oliver won't go to court? We know why, but she definitely doesn't.

[tv echo]

From TheMovieNetwork review of 414:

An obvious sign that the script isn't the central point of the episode is that stunt coordinator James Bamford is back behind the director's chair....
*  *  *
It would be nice to say they get an A for effort, but the script and dialogue gets a C at best. What's more, since the usually much more reliable Wendy Mericle co-wrote it with Oscar Balderrama, the blame really can't be laid onto Marc Guggenheim, at least for this particular episode.

 

Even though WM and OB are the official co-writers for this episode, I bet that MG gave significant input into some of the dialogue (especially Thea's speech to Oliver).  WM is usually better about writing character development and relationship-related dialogue.  I would've loved to have been a fly on the wall during script discussions between MG and WM.

 

Also, this episode was originally supposed to be directed by Antonio Negret (iirc).  So I wonder if after JBam took over the directing duties, they added more action stunt sequences.

 

Btw, based on some of the reviews that I've read, the reviewers who are okay with Oliver's secret-keeping are not making any distinction between keeping William a secret from the general public and keeping him a secret from Felicity, but just latch onto the keeping William secret equals keeping him safe argument.  On the other hand, the reviewers who are not okay with Oliver's secret-keeping point out that telling Felicity would not make William less safe because she would keep the secret.  Oliver is simply choosing to lie to his loved ones rather than lie to Samantha.

Edited February 18, 2016 by tv echo

[benteen]

So much yes on Samantha and William being only plot devices.  We've barely seen either of them, especially William.  They are just plot devices to give Oliver more manpain and to create a contrived drama with Felicity by having him regress to behavior that he had finally managed to overcome.

 

Even without knowing he's the Green Arrow, I can understand why Samantha wants William's link to Oliver be kept secret.  Oliver is in the public eye now, running for Mayor.  Attempts have been made on Oliver's life and as far as Samantha knows, he's been falsely accused of being the Arrow on two separate occasions.  Oliver's mother, William's grandmother, was murdered.  Can you imagine if she found out he was actually the Green Arrow?  Why would any mother want to open her son's life up to the chaos that surrounds Oliver?  If she had gone with that angle, I would have understood it more.  But the "you sleep around" argument is deplorable.  Yes, Oliver used to sleep with a lot of women, Samantha, including you.  That's how you ended up with a kid in the first place.

 

Unless we get another flashback showing that Moira knew Samantha didn't cash the check and just accepted it, it's ridiculous to try to imply that she didn't know that she cashed it.  You don't just write a check that that, for that purpose and never make sure that it isn't cashed.

[doesntworkonwood]

It's so obvious that this was a Bamford episode, especially with shitty fight scenes galore. 

 

I was hoping that they'd do the reveal in this episode, just so we could get it over and done with, but alas my hopes were ignored. Everything about this storyline is just plot, there are no characters there is just plot. 

 

Also, why does it take two people to take down one lady with what is essentially a glorified staple gun.

[bijoux]

It's so obvious that this was a Bamford episode, especially with shitty fight scenes galore. 

 

At least nothing but the buildings shook, so yay, progress.

[dtissagirl]

We don't know Samantha's pov because she's not a real character. IRL she would fear lawyers but that doesn't mean she wouldn't make demands. She would be scared to death of Ollie's money and potential status in his community. That would be why she's letting Oliver see William in the first place. But Samantha's pov doesn't matter. I just think better writers would be able to tell this story line better. But these stories are always about ship angst and not character moments. We barely know Oliver's pov. Most of what we know of Oliver's thinking comes from SA's facial expressions. Imo.

Oh, I agree with you that BM and demon spawn are plot devices and not characters -- it even explains why William is being written as a 4 year old instead of a 10 year old. But I completely disagree that giving BM and kid their own POVs would make this storyline better, because the foundation of what Samantha is asking Oliver falls to pieces with, you know, simple Earth logic.

[benteen]

It never fails.  Ever since Season 2, there's always at least one dumb storyline that develops and hurts the show.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Did Oliver pinch Felicity during the slowcooker scene? LOL (Also, am I misremembering or that happened some other time recently?)

 

Oh, he most definitely did. 

 

 

 

He didn't pinch her in 4x01, but he did grab her arm and gave her the look that also said "Play nice, wifey" or at least "Don't sass the nice lady who gave us this wonderful slow cooker."

 

Edited February 18, 2016 by SmallScreenDiva

[WaitandHope]

Just one time, I want Oliver to have a heart-to-heart scene with anyone where he actually tells the whole freaking story - real truth.  Think of the details left out with Thea: well, your dad knows (and BTW I cut his hand off); Felicity did find out once and I think she broke up with me; Barry changed the timeline where we all died and re-wrote history; Barry says this lie is going to bite me in the ass; and, oh yeah, Barry knows.

 

Thea's blank response could have been simply --> yes, let me think on the idiocy of all of your latest colossal screw-up and get back to you tomorrow.   We need to prepare for the debate. 

 

From my co-watching children this time, I got a lot of confusion because they kept thinking Felicity already found out about the child.  I had to remind them that Barry changed the timeline.   I have surmised the "previouslies" could be very long next week. 

 

My oldest kept saying "Oh Oliver..."  and hanging her head.  This is basically the universal response to the episode.

 

Has quarks given up on us?  I need to go back through our thread and make sure I didn't miss the lists!  Maybe "good things" is causing writer's block.   

[tarotx]

I personally don't like characters as just plot devices. It's annoy as hell to me because a good writer can tell stories with rich characters even with limited screen time. I personally don't think BM's foundation falls to pieces (though it could be set more firmly). Oliver shows up after 4 years of being back. IRL she would have feared this since Oliver's return and maybe has felt a bit reassured since Moira's death and Oliver not questioning her last year. Then boom. As for why refused to allow Oliver to tell Felicity, IRl there are a bunch of women who can't stand the idea of another women being a mother to her kids. This child is the one she carried and raised for 10 or so years. There is so much anger and fear. Oliver not fighting her in court is where the pieces fall a part. Imo. 

[TVHappy9463]

I don't even know where to begin. Let's talk the good:  Charlotte Ross, Paul Blackthorne, the entire scene with Curtis and the bionic chip, the reaction shots from EBR and SA were great, I was really impressed with SA, usually his eyes are so dead or looking away, The last scene with DD, not matter how trite, Neil committed and it worked.  

 

The bad, the flashbacks, Thea character assassination, lack of Alex at the debate!!! ( we are not dumb), the action scenes were meh, Diggle's helmet. And the death anvils, stop trolling us it's insulting.  

 

So is William's mother tied up somewhere?  Are they going to kill her and put William in hiding after they take down DD?  I know it's mean, but they need to kill them both off. Get this freaking show back on track. How may more episodes to the death episode?  4?  with a two week break, do I really have to wait 6 weeks to get this over with.  

Somebody needs to make a T-shirt that says Guggenheim and Berlanti  you have failed the Arrow Fans.  

[Password]

I really thought Ruvé (or is it Rumé) would reveal Oliver's son during the debate.

The whole time Oliver was sassing her about her husband and surname I thought she was secretly seething and just WAITING to drop the bomb on him.

[arjumand]

I'm trying to think of what to say that hasn't already been said, but it's really hard. Right now I'm really busy, so watching Arrow is taking a break - except it's really frustrating.

 

I like watching youtube movie reviews - one of my favourite channels, Double Toasted, has a very, ahem, special ratings system. If they really don't like something, it's rated "Some ol' bullshit". And that's what I was thinking during the entire Thea conversation. That, and finally I understood what "selling you a bill of goods" really means.

 

I mean, seriously? Seriously. You have a toxic storyline which taints everything you're trying to accomplish. Most of the fans and critics hate it. instead of trying to see things from someone else's p.o.v., especially those who have stayed faithful to the show and not abandoned it for the new kid in town, we have a better solution.

 

Let's make all the action in the episode GRIND TO A HALT to make two characters have a nonsensical conversation entirely made up of "SO THEREs" for the audience. I mean, even Joss Whedon wasn't that petty - ok, sure, when we didn't like his planned new boyfriend for Buffy, he made it so, in his opinion, Buffy could never be together with the guy fans really liked for her. So, I guess maybe he was. Except he never tried anything this clumsy and anvillicious.

 

Last week we were making jokes to the effect that "No one will be admitted during the exciting digging scene!" If we were all psychic, we should have been talking about this dull, dull scene, which reminded me of nothing more than the Star Wars prequels, and all the scenes with characters sitting and talking (watch Mr Plinkett's reviews for a hilarious take down of those).

 

You know, it's going to be darkly hilarious when this whole thing comes out:

 

"Why didn't you tell me, Oliver? Do you think I can't keep a secret?"

 

"I promised Samantha, Felicity! As the mother of my child! And NO ONE KNOWS! Except Barry. So, just him. Oh, and Malcolm Merlyn? Yeah, he knows too. And I guess he told Damien Darhk? But besides those three guys, no-one, absolutely, no-one on this earth- wait, wait. Thea. She knows too. Felicity? Where are you going?"

[Scribbles]

Who, other than Barry and Oliver, know Barry changed the timeline?  Oliver's lie about the child comes from two places.  1.  It was a condition set by the birth mom. And, 2.  Timeline One results in what Barry interprets as a break up between Oliver/Felicity and the death of all because Oliver was distracted.  Barry connected the child reveal to everyone dies, and Oliver did not mention this to Thea either. 

 

If Oliver is ever fully truthful about having lied, he will basically be telling Felicity that he and Barry changed the timeline because the one where she discovered the truth/the way she did, resulted in death for all. 

 

A couple of episodes ago Oliver mentioned that changing the future has consequences (wasn't it in a convo with Laurel or something?) and he worried he may be responsible for what was happening because of that. 

 

I am just saying that all the focus on the lie being an issue may be more to the writers than whether it is in character for Oliver to lie to his fiancé.

[Delphi]

Regarding the debate, I'm so not surprised that Oliver pwned it. I mean, he goes up on the podium and just has to talk about how his mother was killed while attempting to be mayor to save the city. His fiancé was just shot and paralyzed because he was trying to save the city. He's been actively trying to clean up the city with his family. Said family was just abducted from his holiday party by evil dudes. And he's still trying.

On the other hand you have Mrs Darhk who appeared out of no where (is she even a resident?) and doesn't like to promote her alleged philanthropic endeavors. Her running makes no sense.

[Hook75]

Is it mean to say that I don't care about Oliver's kid? I hate this plot and just want the kid to go away!

[cambridgeguy]

 

Regarding the debate, I'm so not surprised that Oliver pwned it. I mean, he goes up on the podium and just has to talk about how his mother was killed while attempting to be mayor to save the city. His fiancé was just shot and paralyzed because he was trying to save the city. He's been actively trying to clean up the city with his family. Said family was just abducted from his holiday party by evil dudes. And he's still trying.

This isn't the West Wing so it's not surprising that they didn't show the debate BUT a competent opponent would be able to nail Oliver on his playboy past and what appears to be his lack of an actual plan aside from "doing what needs to be done", which sounds great and accomplishes nothing.  He could easily be painted as a tool of Palmer Technologies since all of his money appears to be coming from them.  Having a tragic life story does not make a person qualified to be mayor.

 

 

Who, other than Barry and Oliver, know Barry changed the timeline?  Oliver's lie about the child comes from two places.  1.  It was a condition set by the birth mom. And, 2.  Timeline One results in what Barry interprets as a break up between Oliver/Felicity and the death of all because Oliver was distracted.  Barry connected the child reveal to everyone dies, and Oliver did not mention this to Thea either.

Cisco knows something happened but that's it.  Unfortunately for Oliver Barry concluded that Felicity dumped him (for good!) because he had a kid, not because he lied about having the kid.  Therefore, Oliver concluded that telling Felicity would mean an automatic breakup.  That doesn't reflect well on his judgement of her if he thinks she would immediately dump his ass for a mistake he made years before they met, especially since she knows Oliver used to be a douchey party boy.

[catrox14]

Can we just spin off Oliver, Felicity, Diggle and Thea into their own rom-com? And bring along Mama Smoak and Quentin.

 

I'm serious.  That's the only way to save them from these dipshit writers making their characters do dipshit things that make no sense.

 

Let Guggenheim and Co. have Buckles and the Justice League.

 

ETA: It would be called "These Two Idiots"

Edited February 18, 2016 by catrox14

[looptab]

Oh, he most definitely did. 

 

 

 

He didn't pinch her in 4x01, but he did grab her arm and gave her the look that also said "Play nice, wifey" or at least "Don't sass the nice lady who gave us this wonderful slow cooker."

 

These two idiots..Thank you for providing gifs/proofs :) Although the scene I was thinking of (read: remember happening but not actually) wasn't that from the premiere, I think it's from one of the post-hiatus eps (if it actually happened and isn't just a figment of my imagination) :)

[Xenith22]

"Just to be clear, I don't care that you have a child. I can't believe that you have a child that you didn't tell me about. I care that you lied to me just now.

...

If you loved me, if you trusted me, telling me this wouldn't be such a burden-- it would be a relief. But you don't trust me. You never will. And how can I be with someone who doesn't trust me?"

That was from Legends of Yesterday straight out of Felicity's mouth to him. So...nope not buying any excuses that he believes Felicity would dump him because of the kid himself and not the lying.

[Midnight Lullaby]

These two idiots..Thank you for providing gifs/proofs :) Although the scene I was thinking of (read: remember happening but not actually) wasn't that from the premiere, I think it's from one of the post-hiatus eps (if it actually happened and isn't just a figment of my imagination) :)

Maybe you were thinking at the scene in 4x09? During the party? http://youtu.be/Uu_0kDnRoVU Min 0:15

[apinknightmare]

"Just to be clear, I don't care that you have a child. I can't believe that you have a child that you didn't tell me about. I care that you lied to me just now.

...

If you loved me, if you trusted me, telling me this wouldn't be such a burden-- it would be a relief. But you don't trust me. You never will. And how can I be with someone who doesn't trust me?"

That was from Legends of Yesterday straight out of Felicity's mouth to him. So...nope not buying any excuses that he believes Felicity would dump him because of the kid himself and not the lying.

He doesn't remember that, though, because Barry undid that timeline. All he knows is what Barry (the only person who remembered the original timeline) told him, which was that Felicity found out about the kid and broke up with him. He didn't actually hear their conversation.

There's not any indication at all that Oliver ever worried about that though, but if the writers had wanted to have that be one of his issues, they could have.

Edited February 18, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Morrigan2575]

"Just to be clear, I don't care that you have a child. I can't believe that you have a child that you didn't tell me about. I care that you lied to me just now.

...

If you loved me, if you trusted me, telling me this wouldn't be such a burden-- it would be a relief. But you don't trust me. You never will. And how can I be with someone who doesn't trust me?"

That was from Legends of Yesterday straight out of Felicity's mouth to him. So...nope not buying any excuses that he believes Felicity would dump him because of the kid himself and not the lying.

Yeah but that was from the timeline that got erased.  Personally I don't subscribe to the idea that Oliver lied to Felicity because he was afraid she would dump him.  There's nothing in the narrative or interviews that suggests it, IMO.  As stupid as it is, the show is telling me that Oliver lied to Felicity because Samantha told him he had to in order to see his son.   

[Midnight Lullaby]

To be fair to Barry though when Oliver asked him what his fight with Felicity was about he said "I'm pretty sure you are someone's father." So he gave Oliver the subject of the fight, not the reason for the break up. Oliver jumped to conclusions if he believed Felicity would leave him because he has a kid. Thinking about it a little, since his first instinct is to keep secrets, he could have realized that was the problem. Anyway the writers haven't even used this possible argument.

[catrox14]

When Oliver says "How can I marry Felicity when there is this lie between us", it felt like there was so much bitterness and futility in how Stephen read the line. My head!canon is Stephen was subtly shading the whole stupid thing and how it's destroying Oliver's progress and that he hates it. That my story and I'm sticking to it.

[looptab]

Maybe you were thinking at the scene in 4x09? During the party? http://youtu.be/Uu_0kDnRoVU Min 0:15

Not even that one, LOL. Oh, well, I'll just have to go and watch all Olicity scenes from these past few episodes - what a chore!

Seriously, though, there's a strong possibility I just imagined that, or it happened in some other show I watch and my brain tells me it was the two of them :D

[Midnight Lullaby]

Makes sense for Oliver to first try to reason with Samantha before resorting to court.  Maybe if he spent some time with her, he could have gotten her to ease up on not letting him tell his fiance.  It's natural that she wouldn't trust him and might be hostile and scared to start off.  But he could spend time with her and try to gain her trust and increase comfort with his involvement and keep his promise to her for a week or two to see if he can get her to come around. Better to try for something like that before going full-blown court.  Going to court for custody isn't benign for kids.  Lawyers get involved, things can get vicious. Samantha could take it out on Oliver by saying bad things about him to William (yes, sadly that's what lots of parents in custody battles do) and get him to distrust Oliver and he probably would because he's going to be closer to his mom than Oliver obviously.  Plus, since Oliver is well-known the press could get involved and start dragging the whole proceedings into the papers.  If Oliver can indulge Samantha for a week or so and reason with her, that's better for William.  But beyond that point, if she's still not being reasonable, okay yes, break promise not to tell Felicity (since Samantha is still being unreasonable and he gave her a chance) or go to court maybe.  Problem is like other posters said we don't get any details about Oliver and Samantha interacting after that first visit. So hard to understand the situation fully.

 

Felicity is strong and compassionate.  She would understand and respect Oliver's love for his son.  She might be angry at first, but she wouldn't fly off the handle and just dump him.  She's mature, she can handle it.  They can have a good talk about the situation and make them closer.

Problem is Oliver didn't even ask her "why do I have to keep the secret from the harmless and loving people closest to me?" At least ask so if you know why she has an issue you can work on it. If you don't ask what can you work on?

Felicity can understand and appreciate Oliver's love for his son, but that doesn't justify going behind her back for months and almost making her a step mom without her knowledge. Oliver lied to her face for months and that wasn't necessary, especially in the moment he found out MM of all people knew about him. He should have gone to his team and ask for help if keeping him safe was the reason to keep him secret. But it seems a psycho mass murderer can know and not the woman he wants to marry.

Felicity loves Oliver, but all the love of the world isn't enough without trust and Oliver, lying to her, broke the trust between them.

[Actionmage]

And, 2.  Timeline One results in what Barry interprets as a break up between Oliver/Felicity and the death of all because Oliver was distracted.  Barry connected the child reveal to everyone dies, and Oliver did not mention this to Thea either.

 

If Oliver is ever fully truthful about having lied, he will basically be telling Felicity that he and Barry changed the timeline because the one where she discovered the truth/the way she did, resulted in death for all.

 

But this is putting everything back on Dumb-as-a-box-of-hair Oliver, in which he can't take his own advice. Just the episode before, Oliver was admonishing "This is why we ask questions, Barry!" Yet, when Oliver finds out that everyone died and all Barry says is that Olicity looked like they broke up, Oliver doesn't ask why Barry thought that. Just because Felicity is upset =/= End times for the couple. ( Seriously, has Barry never seen a committed couple argue and/ or need some space?) [added: Yes, he asked Barry about the fight, but took at face value an answer that sounded like a cross between half-assed and guess. There was no push back after stopping Vandal Savage, especially if there were all those trips to CC to see William.]

 

It affects this episode in that Oliver is continuing, however many weeks out, to stew in his expected 'it's-all-my-fault-again" guilt, but the script has no one asking him about it because no one on the team knows. That effing crossover is the demarcation point for this season's descent. We had 7-8 episodes of Grown, Mature Oliver taking care of business and being smart, but then Barry is relied on as the gospel of Time and Relationships and we end up with Thea being an OOC mouthpiece.

 

No, I am wrong; Laurel now knows about the death timeline, but she is getting Barry's version vis-à-vis Oliver's guilt and incomplete understanding. In the best of circumstances, Laurel's advice to Oliver is tolerated and listened to, not necessarily acted on. Even if someone were to write what we are all yelling and headdesking about Felicity and the secret, there is no guarantee that Oliver would actually consider it because it came from Laurel "I know you in my bones" Lance. The only two people Oliver would listen to seriously about William are John and Felicity, but neither knows. 

 

Man, this is ...it's not quite S3 bad, but it seems like the season is wondering if it can make that leap.

 

Added:  What is the farm report?  All we know is that there is an inside cornfield of oversized largeness. And Damien and those he deems worthy are supposed to be safe there after something something evil plot- again- in Star City. Right?

Edited February 18, 2016 by Actionmage

[Password]

I honestly don't understand why Oliver had to lie. Even telling Felicity there's something huge going on and saying he can't yet tell her would've been in tune with Baby Mama's demands. But he just straight up lied and lied and lied and (apparently) felt guilty about it.

I have zero sympathy with him. It's beyond my comprehension why he and now Thea think this is necessary.

Not to mention that Oliver doesn't seem to be trying to convince BM that he can tell Felicity or his friends. He's basically going along with his secret family and is totally OK with that.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Also if Oliver was so convinced for unknown reasons he had to keep his son a secret from everyone this doesn't mean he should do that and marry Felicity as soon as possible too. I would have been mad at him but I would have seen as honorable the choice of taking a break from her the moment he knew he couldn't be truthful to her.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Exactly! This is bad writing.  They don't have him ask so we can't understand.  Why doesn't he ask?  Wouldn't you? Wouldn't that be natural? Like I said, bad writing.  Makes it hard to judge when we don't know motivations of different people in the situation. I'm not saying don't be angry at Oliver and situation.  But I ask: don't you prefer someone to ask you about why you do something before they just jump in and start making assumptions about you and the situation you are in and judging you? Just horrible horrible writing.  MG is going for the cheap plot, cutting out really important stuff.  This is no reflection on Oliver and how he feels about Felicity or even that his lying shows disrespect for Felicity.  This is cheap, short-cut writing.  Why MG sucks at characterization IMHO. If MG wants everyone to understand why he thinks this was okay for Oliver, he needed to do a better job with details and filling stuff in.

I think the reason he didn't ask her is that if he did and she said it was to keep the kid safe then the logical response would have been to tell her Felicity isn't a danger and she would help keeping him safe if she knew. Also if all of this was out in the open the moment MM found out Oliver would have had to run to Feliciy to ask for help protecting the kid.

We can't understand because there wasn't a strong argument that could have been made to justify Oliver lying to her until Darhk kidnapped the kid.

[AyChihuahua]

Oliver didn't adopt a dog without talking to Felicity first. He has an actual human child that he has been building a relationship with and lying to her about. I feel like this is a time for caps: HE HAS A CHILD AND HE INTENDED TO MARRY HER WITHOUT TELLING HER THAT. And he didn't give up the kid for adoption and intend never to see him or some such. He's visiting HIS ACTUAL HUMAN CHILD on the regular, and by implication the kid's [horrible hagbag] mother, building a life with HIS ACTUAL HUMAN CHILD and not telling his SOON-TO-BE WIFE about it.

 

Oliver failing to tell her, for THREE MONTHS, that he HAS AN ACTUAL HUMAN CHILD is MORE than enough reason to dump him.

[tangerine95]

They literally just haven't thought this lie through except for we need olicity to break up for a while.There are so many holes in the reasoning and whole thing depends on the audience pretty much believing that BM is like a human lie detector and will know the second he tells someone and he loses the chance to see the kid.But thats expecting your audience to either be dumb or ignore the dumb which isn't easy to do and so they're getting a huge backlash and near universal hate for the storyline.

I'm kinda confused at the way they're trying to have it both ways.Like they have Thea spell out for us that he had no choice and it was the right thing to do but at the same time it seems to me that the fact that it leads to cosequences like the break up and the kid in danger shows its not the right thing to do.I doubt they will make Felicity in the wrong here when she's hurt over the lie and can't be with him over it.They even said it was a regression for him and it seems like the point will be for him to learn not to lie to her again so I really don't know how it was the right thing to do if its a lesson he's supposed to learn.But they also don't want him to seem unlikable by wanting to lie by himself so we get a contrived reason I guess.They're going about it the wrong way though.I don't think they realize how much most people don't care about the kid or a promise to BM especially compared to his relationship with Felicity.I really think they would have gotten a better response to the lie if they made it about the fear of losing Felicity,at least that way its related to a relationship shown onscreen and not a relationship that consists of like a single scene.

[tarotx]

Even if Oliver truly had no choice, Felicity could still come to realize that someone who's a liar liar who lies and keeps secrets will never fully be trustworthy. It would be an accumulative thing but that's life. We don't do things in Isolation from the other stuff we've done. The creatives want the lie to break Olicity up but they want them to be able to get back together. The back together is the reason they are having Samantha demand Oliver lie and Thea as secret keeper. With a Barry changing time on the side.

Edited February 18, 2016 by tarotx

[Password]

The problem for me is this drama with Oliver's child in normal circumstances would never create a chasm between Oliver and Felicity. Nothing about Oliver finding out he has a kid and telling Felicity immediately would've drummed up drama between THEM. But seeing as that is what the writers are aiming for, they need a reason for it to happen.

They could've decided to make it about Oliver deciding not to interrupt William's life, leading to Felicity's want of a father as a child causing tension, or they could've had it as Oliver deciding to stay away but Darhk somehow finds out, or they could've had it as Oliver wanting a relationship but struggling to balance being a mayor and father and husband and GA or, or, or.

But they didn't. And now we're stuck with this tripe.

[catrox14]

Even if Oliver truly had no choice, Felicity could still come to realize that someone who's a liar liar who lies and keeps secrets will never fully be trustworthy. It would be an accumulative thing but that's life. We don't do things in Isolation from the other stuff we've done. The creatives want the lie to break Olicity up but they want them to be able to get back together. The back together is the reason they are having Samantha demand Oliver lie and Thea as secret keeper. With a Barry changing time on the side.

 

 

This kind of brings up the idea of forgiveness and moving on.

 

If we take all the things that a person has done over time but we have seen that they have changed, even incrementally, should we go back and kitchen sink the past and find the person not changed anymore? 

 

Or should we only consider this particular thing, which is kind of bigger than the other things, but in a way is almost more understandable because it is his child?  I'm saying that this lie as stupid as it is a result of a wrong headed attempt to keep William safe.

 

I feel like that might be something Felicity would be more inclined to forgive knowing that he has changed over time.

 

I really don't know what to think other than it's totally fucking stupid.

[Chaser]

I think this episode was laying groundwork for soft breakup. Felicity putting pause on their relationship so that Oliver could sort out his situation and she could figure out how she feels about everything.

 

I'm curious when this episode was finished. If it was before or after they got the backlash from 4x08. I'm wondering if they may have tweaked it given the strong negative reaction to 4x08.

[ComicFan777]

The thing with a soft breakup speculation...doesn't the flash forward kinda contradict that.  I mean they did seem cold to each other.  Would it only be the death that causes the distance or do you think the breakup play into the atmosphere in the flash forward?

[AyChihuahua]

SA said Olicity shippers were going to hate the end of 15. He apologized for it. And she's not wearing the ring in the FF, which WM specifically brought attention to as being meaningful re the state of their relationship. So they're going to break up. Breaking off an engagement (i.e., returning the ring) seems pretty hard to me. I did it once, and I promise you the guy I returned the ring to didn't consider it anything but a hard breakup.

Edited February 18, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[Carrie Ann]

Even though WM and OB are the official co-writers for this episode, I bet that MG gave significant input into some of the dialogue (especially Thea's speech to Oliver).  WM is usually better about writing character development and relationship-related dialogue.  I would've loved to have been a fly on the wall during script discussions between MG and WM.

 

I'm curious when this episode was finished. If it was before or after they got the backlash from 4x08. I'm wondering if they may have tweaked it given the strong negative reaction to 4x08.

 

Yeah, 408 aired Dec 2, and 414 began prep for shooting on Dec 4 (actual shooting started a week or so later), so I am positive that some revisions were done to the script to hammer home how wonderful lying is when it's done to protect someone.

[Chaser]

I'm not saying they aren't going to break up. I think they will. I just don't think we will see that anger that we saw from Felicity in 4x08. I'm expecting more hurt and her trying to understand.

 

The vibe in the limo scene is up for interpretation. I didn't see Felicity directing any anger at Oliver, it all seemed to be at the 'Him.' To me, it looked like two former very close people who just experienced a traumatic event and don't know how to act around each other.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Chaser

[thegirlsleuth]

If you peeled off the layer of lying grossness, this wasn't a bad episode. The villains were fun in an unbelievable comic way, Damien Darhk is back on screen, Oliver and Felicity were lovely, and I'm sure those who watch for the stunts--not me--really enjoyed the episode.  And Curtis is delightful.  Echo can match Emily Bett Rickards in the zingy dialogue category, and he brings such warmth and down-to-earth sincerity to every scene he's in.  If they had written Ray Palmer the way they wrote Curtis (and if he was played with the same wit and charm) I might have seriously rooted for Felicity to leave Oliver last season.

 

I wish they were making a bigger deal of Oliver running for mayor and what it meant for the city especially after last year, when it was all the masks stuck in the basement.  I liked the earlier seasons, where you had the sense of Oliver's public life.  I worry they are slipping back into mask-ville again. 

 

Also I really hope they let Damien Dahrk start to do his thing in a big way over the next half season. I feel like he has been little more than a low level crime lord with supernatural powers.  I want to get a sense of his end game, and I want to see him put it in motion. I really, really don't want Malcolm to be the driver of the action in the second half of the season again.  I'm done with him as a villain.

 

But the lie.  I realized that I couldn't pay attention to the show through the whole thing because I kept waiting for the lie to drop. I was thinking "Well,it does create tension",  but it is the bad kind of tension, where it takes my focus off the story. For me, the "Who's in the grave?" question has created the good kind of tension, because it ties us closer to the story and its fun.  The lie is just a failure on every level, including a failure for who Oliver has become over four seasons, the relationship he has with Felicity, Thea's experience being lied to about her parentage, storytelling, basic logic, and how the custody battles work.  In a way, the fact that the lie is over such a regular thing that so many watchers have experience with has made the lie especially galling.  It's hard to argue when Oliver is lying in order to defeat a semi-immortal head of a league of assassins.  Most of us--I hope NONE of us--have no experience with what that's like.  But most people have either experience or know someone who has experienced a custody situation, and the visceral "That's not how this sort of thing works legally!" coupled with the fact that it makes no sense for Oliver to keep this secret ( and try to get married while keeping the secret) makes the whole thing terrible.

 

In conclusion, Guggenheim is a hack.

[Hook75]

I honestly don't understand why Oliver had to lie.

 

 

And this is what is wrong with this whole SL. 

[way2interested]

I'm not saying they aren't going to break up. I think they will. I just don't think we will see that anger that we saw from Felicity in 4x08. I'm expecting more hurt and her trying to understand.

 

The vibe in the limo scene is up for interpretation. I didn't see Felicity directing any anger at Oliver, it all seemed to be at the 'Him.' To me, it looked like two former very close people who just experienced a traumatic event and don't know how to act around each other.

Exactly the vibe that I'm getting as well, both from the flash forward and for the incoming break-up. Further elaborating in the relationships thread.