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Actors playing Darden and Clark have good chemistry, but I'm not interested in seeing their affair play out. Disappointed that they had one during the trial - that had to be a real distraction.

 

Damn. Really?  I missed that all these years but it certainly makes sense. Wow. Thanks for that tidbit.

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K kids right out of the gate.

I saw an article where it said the producers told them (the journalists) that there was only a small bit of the kids and that they'd deliberately minimized the amount of them in the show.

 

Clearly this is showing those producers up as liars. I mean when the first thing we get is the first lesson the kids allegedly get on How Good It Is To Be Famous. And yes, I fully expect to see more stories from Kamp K tomorrow about how this is completely fictional and never actually happened.

Edited by Kromm
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The K kids notwithstanding, I think Robert Kardashian's role in the OJ trial and the aftermath of the murders can't be overestimated. He was OJ's consigliere because he was the only friend / hanger-on who could be there all the time as a "lawyer". Then there's the whole knife thing that may or may not come up. The Kardashians and the Simpsons were tight for a long time, until Kris and Nicole stayed away from OJ while Robert decided to cling harder to him.

 

I think a story like this could be told without the kids, but this is a show airs in 2016. It's been almost a decade since the sex tape was released, most of the Kardashian kids are TV personalizes and Caitlyn Jenner is a media figure for many reasons as well. I never watched the trial live and I could never understand how people could sit for hours watching boring interrogatories until something interesting happened. The heart of this story is about why the (rich and) famous are different.

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Does anyone know when FX updates their website with the latest episode? Right now it's still on Episode 2.

 

About AC and AC Cowlings. Lots of announcers, reporters and anchormen at the time did the same thing. It was very rare to hear "Al Cowlings", actually, except during trial testimony.

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I only hope this show gives Barry Scheck and Pete Neufeld the credit they deserve. They were the finest lawyers on the team, and their destruction of the criminalist and the blood evidence is the primary reason why OJ got off.

I think it will give this spin on the DNA evidence. A lot of people have said that the jury was too dumb to understand DNA twenty years ago because it was too new. I disagree. I think people (the LAPD and reporters and the general public) didn't understand DNA collection procedures and why they are so important twenty years ago. I think after 20 years of CSI and Law and Order and their spinoffs and copy cat shows, that people will be shocked to see how the blood evidence was handled by the LAPD.

Edited by VanillaBeanne
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I know the tapes really happened. I remember hearing them when they were released, and remember thinking how scary it must be to be 120lbs and trapped in your home because your kids are upstairs, while being terrorized by an angry violent former NFL player. I just think Nicole's voice sounds different in last night episode so I think it was a reenactment. Edited by VanillaBeanne
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Had to laugh at Shapiro and Bailey talking about Dershowitz's celebrity since literally right before this episode I was watching him on CNN talk about the Supreme Court/Scalia stuff. The man has really stood the test of time.

 

Dershowitz is actually scrambling to defend himself from allegations that several years ago he had sex with a teenage girl who was sex trafficked by his good friend and former client, convicted sex offender Jeff Epstein. 

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Dershowitz was already regarded as a brilliant legal mind and before the murders had led the appeal that overturned Claus Von Bulow's murder conviction - another very high profile case. Those cases made him well known outside legal circles and gave him his current platform.

Prior to the Epstein thing he has managed to stay respected as a legal scholar while also handling many high profile cases for defendants of questionable virtue and doing his Fox News schtick. He has some views I don't agree with but has been a tireless advocate for the 1st amendment. Though in many ways I find him tiresome.

There is no doubt Simpson got the best defense money can buy - he got rich white man justice, in effect.

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I think a show about nothing but the trial would be boring, been there, done that.  This is about ALL of it, including the exploding circus it became, the racial tension and divides it exposed, and some peeks at some of the key players, then, and even now.

I wasn't suggesting the show should be nothing but the trial. I'm saying that even with the circus, and the imagined conversations with the Kardashians, and the extrapolated dialogue in OJ's cell, I'm finding it fairly dull. It is unbelievably awkward to listen to dialog that is basically exposition, like Marcia Clark's statement of her record prosecuting murders.

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In a lot of ways this is an Origin story for the Kardashians. It's hard to believe but before OJ no one really heard of them but Robert was a loyal friend of OJ and you know how the press rolls. Yes of course their were other reason the K fanily graced us with their presence (Jenner being a big one) but the OJ trial tossed them into the spotlight.

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Though Robert Kardashian did become known due to the OJ trial, he became mostly recognizable as the "guy whose jaw dropped when he heard "not guilty". That night the scene was played over and over with Kardashian's "look" pointed out every time.

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It's really nitpicky, but it's annoying to hear Marcia refer to "A. C. Cowlings".  It's either "A. C." or "Al Cowlings", not a combo of the two.  His middle name is Greg.

It annoyed me, but I looked at it as at this point in the happenings, people didn't have all the names down correctly. See the employees at the restaurant for another example. There have been a few more butchering of names in-story because it wasn't completely all-consuming.... yet.  So if the producers did it on purpose to remind us that at some point we were ignorant of these nuances too, it was a brilliant move on their part.

 

It could have been sloppy writing, but I'm going to give them credit at this point.

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"You think Alan is the most famous lawyer in the country?"

 

God bless Nathan Lane and his line delivery.

 

That was my favorite moment of an episode I liked a lot. I loved seeing the Dream Team come together and seeing the beginning stages of battling egos. It reminded me of some of the bigger cases I've worked on, with heavy hitters not only from my law firm but from multiple law firms. Fun times.

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One thing I'm confused by -- I thought Shapiro was against use of race in the case and that in the end, he criticized Cochran for it. Yet here he is seen introducing it. I'll be interested to see how that unfolds.

 

I think that was post-verdict Shapiro trying to look good.

By the way, I believe this is the New Yorker article that was referred to in this week's episode

 

I love the assembling of the "Dream Team" and the Sarah Paulson as Clark's confidence in having a winner being slowly eroded by both the celebrity and the racial aspects.

I think they were called the Dream Team because they were asleep at the switch.

Ooooooohhhh.

You were referring to the defense attorneys.

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Was it ever confirmed that Darden and Clark had an affair? I thought that was just tabloid fodder.

Clark played coy in her memoirs ("we were closer than lovers but only someone who went through what we went through, will know what that means l" paraphrase) but I thought Darden admitted the affair. ETA: none of them denied it.

And the reporter was Jeffrey toobin? Missed that. Was the actor who played him Aaron on WAlking Dead?

Edited by VanillaBeanne
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I was 100% under the assumption that the 911 tapes were re-enacted.  Now that I'm reading on this thread that they were real, I'm not sure I can re-watch the show like I normally do.  I know pretty much everything about this trial is fair game for the show, but listening to the real voice of a brutally murdered woman while her violently angry ex-husband screams in the background shakes me.

Edited by laurakaye
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Damn. Really?  I missed that all these years but it certainly makes sense. Wow. Thanks for that tidbit.

The Clark/Darden affair rumor was never confirmed or admitted to.

Edited by preeya
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I was 100% under the assumption that the 911 tapes were re-enacted. Now that I'm reading on this thread that they were real, I'm not sure I can re-watch the show like I normally do. I know pretty much everything about this trial is fair game for the show, but listening to the real voice of a brutally murdered woman while her violently angry ex-husband screams in the background shakes me.

Just checked IMDb because wanted to know who played Jeff toobin.

According to IMDb, the 911 tape was a well done reenactment. There is a Nicole Simpson voice credit on IMDb. http://m.imdb.com/title/tt4277102/fullcredits/cast?ref_=m_tt_cl_sc

Edited by VanillaBeanne
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I love that the reporter was Toobin. I had no idea.

I'm completely riveted by this. There have only been a few things I didn't know already but it's still as interesting to me now as it was then. Not sure what that says about me....

That magazine cover was such a big deal, I think they did a good job by showing the pictures side by side. I don't remember what the explanation was for darkening the picture, or if they even had one, but it was so strange.

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I was not going to watch this series because I figured I remember the chase/trial/verdict but here I am captivated all over again.   I dont get the Kardashian hate in this series.  Their dad was one of OJs best friends/Nicole and Kris were friends so it's not as if the series is making their close relationship up.  It happened get over it and watch the rest of the story.  I know I am cause damn it's still fascinating.

Not hate, just eye rolling. 

 

That tape sounds very real, but doesn't match my recollection of it 100%, specifically the way in which she says, "He's OJ Simpson, I think you know his record."  So either time has altered my perception of it, and that's the real tape, or, it's a very, very good reenactment. Cannot wait to find out -- maybe one of the Kardashian kids will give us some insight in a future episode (just slapped my own wrist).

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I'm not sure what they were trying to get across with that last scene, but I was left scratching my head. Cochran wants to look into OJ's eyes and know that he can believe him, and I guess we're supposed to think he does? But I've always thought this was about a smart and ambitious man leveraging a high profile case to further his cause of exposing the systemic racism of the LAPD, not about true belief in this particular man's innocence. I don't buy anyone that closely involved with the case really believing that OJ didn't do it, aside from sycophantic fan-friends. 

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I have to say I am seriously enjoying the heck out of this series. It's very eye-opening, and i really felt bad for the curly-haired lady (Marcia?) when they were basically all "it's so obvious that he did it, it's a slam dunk, we can do this and win 5 times" to - "we can't treat this as if it is. I am also amazed with all the media-influence in regards to it (like - you know that now  but like all of these little things that Marcia was trying to like keep hidden, kept leaking out), 

 

Re: the Race Card - I had to laugh when she was like, "shouldn't his peers be rich white people?" because when it echos with Cuba's "I'm not Black, I'm OJ" it really just seemed to indirectly underline her point. (to me). Does that make sense? but it is really amazing how this really boiled down into a black v. white thing. (Which one was Mark Furmann? I don't remember him - was he really a racist cop?)

 

I was like eleven or so - so I dn't remember have any memories of this, other than
A: it happened

B: it impacted soap operas

C: a lot of people felt that he got away from it

 

my co-worker believes he's actually innocent and we'd never really know the truth. (I kinda give her a side-eye LOL). 

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 I really enjoyed this episode. When all of this originally went down, I was way more interested in the trial than all the stuff with the Bronco chase, so I'm glad we're now closer to the main event, so to speak. I enjoyed seeing how OJ's legal team came together, and getting some insight into the strategies each side (prosecution and defence) planned to use. Knowing how those plans turned out adds an interesting extra layer to this show I think.

 

Overall, a good episode, and I look forward to next week.

Edited by WordFreak
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Ooh! At least one nagging questing was answered for me. There is a Carl Douglas! Here's hoping he is the one who questions Ron Shipp!

 

As for Marcia's unhappiness regarding all the witnesses and the tapes being leaked to the media? I'll take my response to the case discussion thread.

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OP wasn't talking about his job, but whether or not he believed OJ, or cared that he'd gotten someone off who slaughtered two people. And I'm pretty sure he didn't care--remember, this is the guy who smirked at Kim Goldman and mouthed "gotcha" after the verdict. That is not a man who cares if his client is innocent or guilty. 

 

If that's true -- I'm probably going to hell for saying this -- I can't feel that bad that Johnnie Cochran died of cancer years later.  Yes, it's an attorney's job to defend their client to the death, whether they are guilty or innocent, but  you don't have to be so fucking smug about it.  

 

And regardless of racial relations and the questionable ethics of the LAPD, getting OJ off didn't change a damn thing.  All it did was let a murderer walk.  So the fact that at the end of the show Cochran and the other OJ supporters are going to act like it was a huge step for racial injustice makes me want to throw up.

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That magazine cover was such a big deal, I think they did a good job by showing the pictures side by side. I don't remember what the explanation was for darkening the picture, or if they even had one, but it was so strange.

Wasn't there a scene early on, of the editors working on the cover? They thought it would be more dramatic and the racial implications seemed not to occur to them.

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Yeah they were talking about "film noir" and "chiaroscuro" and all kinds of arty things.

 

Thank you Twitter for revealing that Evan Handler was actually in a TV pilot with OJ Simpson in 1994!

CbZX3paUcAEc5sD.jpg

 

 (And yes Handler did have hair once, when he was in a first season episode of Miami Vice. It was a 'Jewfro' like Dershowitz').

Edited by VCRTracking
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Wasn't there a scene early on, of the editors working on the cover? They thought it would be more dramatic and the racial implications seemed not to occur to them.

 

Yes.  The female editor said that by making OJ look darker it "popped" more, and the others agreed, which...to me, made them sound...ignorant, for not thinking how others/the public would see it. I remember side-eyeing Time for this cover when it came out and thinking didn't they think what kind of reaction it would cause?

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Yes. The female editor said that by making OJ look darker it "popped" more, and the others agreed, which...to me, made them sound...ignorant, for not thinking how others/the public would see it. I remember side-eyeing Time for this cover when it came out and thinking didn't they think what kind of reaction it would cause?

It is a good illustration I think of how weird and multilayered our racial issues are. The implication was that by making him darker they were trying to make him seem more menacing and playing on readers' associations.

But it's inherently racist to equate dark with menacing, and those very assumptions are racist So even just the assumption that they were trying to make him look like a "bad" man by making him look darker is so inherently racist and f**ked up.

I know I didn't express that well but hopefully you know what I mean. I guess I'm trying to say, yeah they shouldn't have tried to make him look darker, but how messed up is it that people are assuming that being darker is bad.

Edited by BBDi
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I'm now remembering the SNL OJ trial sketch with Tim Meadows as Johnny Cochran(they had some no name extra play OJ being silent):

 

"You see, the prosecution, they're desperate! Yeah, they're grabbing at anything! They keep telling everyone - Ms. Clark, the press - that the defense has been playing the "race" card! The "race" card! But what you don't hear - and I can't believe the press hasn't mentioned this - that, all the while, the prosecution has been playing the "evidence" card. Yeah! Oh, yeah! Day in, day out! "Your Honor, we have this 'evidence' that we'd like to present!" "We have a witness who will clearly explain this 'evidence'!" You follow the pattern? Evidence here, evidence there, evidence everywhere! But that's not what this case is about!"

 

Did OJ really ask why his buddies from the golf club didn't come by an visit? Because that he meant he was really delusional.

Edited by VCRTracking
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Does anyone know when FX updates their website with the latest episode? Right now it's still on Episode 2.

 

Unfortunately, it can sometimes be two weeks.  If there's something on FX that I'm watching, I always record it.

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Watching this episode took me back to grad school when all of this was going down. I had a class the day after Marcia Clark's press conference. My law professor made a statement that stuck with me for reasons that will be obvious. 1) He stated that the prosecution already lost the case when Clark proclaimed that OJ was solely responsible for the crime. 2) He also said that the prosecution set itself for failure when Clark so clearly didn't grasp the pulse of the people. There was anger and mistrust of the police and she clearly didn't get it. 3) He concluded by saying the prosecution was playing checkers and didn't get that the defense was playing chess.

Marcia Clark comes off as a mega bitch in the show. It's interesting that the years have done nothing to dull people's negative opinion of her.

I found the Kardashian scene with Robert and the kids fascinating for one reason. The four K kids are there and the show took great lengths to cast Khloe as being the only one who doesn't favor Robert or Kim in looks or coloring. So subtle, but very clear reference to the never-ending rumor about Khloe not being Robert's daughter.

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(An aside, the Bugliosi book was very well named because his rage is evident on every page and while I liked the first book by Toobin, this one is far more interesting to me, even if he doesn't delve into every specific detail of the case. I imagine there's far more books out there that attempt to.)

I also just started reading it. I'm not enjoying it--the anger and his utter disdain for everyone involved makes it difficult for me to read. But It is kind of interesting to watch last night's episode unfold, particular WRT the issue of venue. I don't think he was as explicit as the movie was about the "optics" that would concern Garcetti, who was concerned with higher office. (Side note: I like Bruce Greenwood a lot--he seems too decent. Garcetti was more blatantly smarmy, as I recall.)

 

Yeah they were talking about "film noir" and "chiaroscuro" and all kinds of arty things.

 

Thank you Twitter for revealing that Evan Handler was actually in a TV pilot with OJ Simpson in 1994!

CbZX3paUcAEc5sD.jpg

 

 (And yes Handler did have hair once, when he was in a first season episode of Miami Vice. It was a 'Jewfro' like Dershowitz').

Is that Matt LeBlanc on the left?

 

It is a good illustration I think of how weird and multilayered our racial issues are. The implication was that by making him darker they were trying to make him seem more menacing and playing on readers' associations.

But it's inherently racist to equate dark with menacing, and those very assumptions are racist So even just the assumption that they were trying to make him look like a "bad" man by making him look darker is so inherently racist and f**ked up.

I know I didn't express that well but hopefully you know what I mean. I guess I'm trying to say, yeah they shouldn't have tried to make him look darker, but how messed up is it that people are assuming that being darker is bad.

 

This is very interesting. I feel like our society has come a long way in its understanding of race and privilege and bias. And/or, maybe I've just grown up and have more experience and now I know better.

Watching this episode took me back to grad school when all of this was going down. I had a class the day after Marcia Clark's press conference. My law professor made a statement that stuck with me for reasons that will be obvious. 1) He stated that the prosecution already lost the case when Clark proclaimed that OJ was solely responsible for the crime. 2) He also said that the prosecution set itself for failure when Clark so clearly didn't grasp the pulse of the people. There was anger and mistrust of the police and she clearly didn't get it. 3) He concluded by saying the prosecution was playing checkers and didn't get that the defense was playing chess.

Marcia Clark comes off as a mega bitch in the show. It's interesting that the years have done nothing to dull people's negative opinion of her.

I don't think she's coming across as a bitch. I think she's coming across as tough and no-nonsense. If anything I think the show is portraying her in a positive light--that she's on the side of truth and doesn't suffer fools.

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It's funny about the rumor about Clark and Darden, because they seemed to have a moment last night, and I was like "Whoa, stop making things up, show!" But apparently it wasn't made up.

 

I remember the Time vs. Newsweek covers. Surprised they didn't go into the headline -- "An American Tragedy" isn't exactly wreaking of objective journalism. It's pretty tame for today, but I remember thinking everything on Time's cover seemed embellished.

 

The performances continue to enthrall me. I saw Nathan Lane for about a minute, before he disappeared into F. Lee Bailey (who is one of the people I remember). Handler was great as Dershowitz, too. Schwimmer was good in the scenes with the kids, but I continued to see Ross in his interactions with Kris and the other lawyers. Continue to love Vance, Paulson and Travolta.

 

One thing I hope Rob Morrow can look into as Barry Scheck is the scientific explanation about why Rob Morrow hasn't aged a day since 1994.

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The F-word was always bleeped out on AMC's broadcasts of Mad Men.  It's restored on the DVDs.

 

Ah, ok. That makes sense. It's restored on Netflix too, which is where I watched the whole series.

 

Still, the FCC has no jurisdiction over cable unless it concerns obscene material: https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/obscene-indecent-and-profane-broadcasts. I'm not sure whether "fuck" is still considered obscene. Perhaps if it's used as referring to a sex act but "motherfucker" is probably safe to get by unless it's actually referring to someone who fucks their mother, which is not the case here.

 

That magazine cover was such a big deal, I think they did a good job by showing the pictures side by side. I don't remember what the explanation was for darkening the picture, or if they even had one, but it was so strange.

 

Already answered, but yeah, according to this show it was just to have a more dramatic cover and compete with other publications, who would also be using the same exact picture. I did have to laugh at the limited options their photo-editing software had...now what you can do to manipulate an image is virtually limitless.

 

I didn't realize that reporter was Toobin, that's really cool!

 

When a reporter asked Clark if she was considering the death penalty for OJ, I was confused. Hadn't the death penalty been overturned in California? Manson and the other Tate-LaBianca murderers were originally given death sentences that were then commuted to life in prison when the death penalty was overturned in 1972. Had it been reinstated by '94?

 

Also, I know we've talked about DNA evidence being relatively new and leading to a lot of problems regarding collection of evidence, but Shapiro didn't seem understand even the basic fundamentals of DNA, and Watson and Crick established the double helix model in the '50s. Was basic knowledge about DNA still not common at all?

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Well, if the 911 tapes were a recreation, then Bravo. So good they fooled me, and I've heard them multiple times. Also, the guy playing Darden is doing a great job. He sounds and looks so much like him. Darden had this slow, methodical way of speaking and watching this I think that's really him.

 

Even though there's very little that I didn't know about this case, other than stuff that happens inside the DA's office, all the public knowledge stuff I remember very well. I was 30 in '94 and this was an almost non-stop news story. Also, I've seen a number of documentaries about it over the years. Despite that, I'm enjoying the series and I think it's done quite well.

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Clark, and Darden too, struck me at the time and ever since as incompetent and vastly overmatched by most of the lawyers on Simpson's team.  To have asked Simpson to try on the glove, when he had absolutely zero interest in doing so, is the height of stupidity.  That each wrote a book and made money out of their incompetence has always made me pretty angry.

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I love the assembling of the "Dream Team" and the Sarah Paulson as Clark's confidence in having a winner being slowly eroded by both the celebrity and the racial aspects.

 

Paulson absolutely nailed that moment when the first flicker of doubt crosses Marcia Clark's face in the scene with Darden. The stuff of high comedy!

Edited by Milburn Stone
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