S03.E04: XXII

[Tabasco Cat]

 

Civilization returns to Nassau; Flint, Silver and Billy meet a new enemy; Rackham takes a stand against his crew; Scott finds his place in the new regime.

 

There was no topic for tonight's episode so I started one.

 

This show just keeps getting better and better (hat tip to WatchrTina who said it last week). Mr. Scott! YES! I always liked the character and wished he had a bigger role. Looks like that's going to happen. When it dawned on me near the end that the daughter was talking about Mr. Scott I literally jumped off the couch. Whoa.

[WatchrTina]

That was good.  I'm still a bit confused about how Jack, Anne & Charles got out of the fort -- even with a big explosion -- but I'll ignore that. Loved loved LOVED the big reveal about Mr. Scott.  HATED that 2 minutes after we learn about his double life he gets shot by red coats.  Damn

 

Can I just be the first to say that Ben Gunn is a good-looking man?  Such pretty eyes.  It's been a bazillion years since I read Treasure Island (if I ever read it) but somehow I recognized that name as a character from the novel.

 

The fire ship escape was pretty great.  Very satisfying seeing Teach's fleet sailing off in the darkness.

 

"Godspeed Charles"

"Fuck you Jack"

 

Best pirate farewell ever.

Edited February 14, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Neurochick]

Me too, I was like Mr. Scott, a BAMF, totally.  I didn't like his wife, even though I do agree with her, if that makes sense; what she was saying was very true for that time;  murder is wrong, but if she let the pirates go, who was to say they wouldn't sell them out to England?  I got the sense that she was into being a queen and IMO was really keeping those folks slaves even though she said she was "protecting" them.  I've heard shit like that before, it screams abuse.

 

But, the mother, the queen did make me think; I mean here we are 300 years later and we're still talking about race, and there's shit like police brutality and all kind of nonsense.  The queen was pressing for a separate state, or island in that case.  The daughter was saying that many on the island would take the pardons if England offered them.  I bet that more than a few don't want to stay on that island forever.  

 

I thought it was interesting that the queen was a bit lighter skinned than the rest of the black people, she was lighter than her daughter and her husband.  It didn't really bother me because it wasn't like she was Max's complexion, but I did notice it and I wonder if that was on purpose.

 

I think the daughter, Madi was kind of taken with Silver (wouldn't you be?)  I liked the conversation between the mother and the daughter at the end, because they were voicing two different opinions that some black people in America voice today.  The mother was for separation, the daughter said you can't really be separate if you depend on your "oppressors" for items to run the island.  

 

I like how in this season the Treasure Island characters have their own story and the historical characters and the Black Sails characters have their own story.  

[Tabasco Cat]

The fire ship escape was pretty great.  Very satisfying seeing Teach's fleet sailing off in the darkness.

 

"Godspeed Charles"

"Fuck you Jack"

 

Best pirate farewell ever.

 

The escape of Charles Vane from Nassau and Woods Rogers' fleet was pretty much according to the historical accounts (at least according to Wikipedia). With the exception of Blackbeard's presence, but the literary license taken is fine with me given how closely the writers stuck to what actually happened. Great special effects tonight, too. It's really obvious that they've got a bigger budget this season.

 

That pirate farewell was excellent,

[Ravenya003]

This was probably my favourite episode yet.

 

So glad they avoided the cliche of the "hostile natives" - I get that it's a staple part of pirate stories, but it REALLY should be retired by now, and I gasped out loud when Ben Gunn introduced himself. Yup, they're definitely on Treasure Island.

 

However, unlike my prediction last week, in which I said Max would end up as Mrs Silver, it would appear we have a new contender for the role: the Queen's daughter.

 

As much as I love our pirate boys, I couldn't disagree with anything the Queen was saying: she's created a safe haven for escaped slaves: the very LAST thing she should be doing is letting go of any strangers who would probably sell them out for a couple of coins. And Mr Scott! That was a great reveal, and I only twigged about a second before he appeared on the beach. Hopefully though his wound isn't fatal: they've been wasting him so far, and I really want to see him reunited with Eleanor and his family before the end of the show. 

 

Eleanor/Woods will be falling into bed any second now - there's every chance that she'll get out of this mess alive. Also loved the Vane/Rackham farewell - though I suspect Rackham's desire for a grand reputation will be what gets him killed. 

 

And I loved Flint's realization that the English are carrying out his exact plan for Nassau: granting the pirates pardons. No wonder he seems so lost. How can he fight the English when they're acting according to his lost love's wishes? 

Edited February 14, 2016 by Ravenya003

[Trisan]

There are so many things I could praise about this show, but... it's too much. I mean... it's so perfect that I'm lazy to list everything good about the episode...

 

So I'll just say : this show is on fire !!!! 

[NorthstarATL]

This was probably my favourite episode yet.

 

So glad they avoided the cliche of the "hostile natives" - I get that it's a staple part of pirate stories, but it REALLY should be retired by now, and I gasped out loud when Ben Gunn introduced himself. Yup, they're definitely on Treasure Island.

 

However, unlike my prediction last week, in which I said Max would end up as Mrs Silver, it would appear we have a new contender for the role: the Queen's daughter.

 

As much as I love our pirate boys, I couldn't disagree with anything the Queen was saying: she's created a safe haven for escaped slaves: the very LAST thing she should be doing is letting go of any strangers who would probably sell them out for a couple of coins. And Mr Scott! That was a great reveal, and I only twigged about a second before he appeared on the beach. Hopefully though his wound isn't fatal: they've been wasting him so far, and I really want to see him reunited with Eleanor and his family before the end of the show. 

 

Eleanor/Woods will be falling into bed any second now - there's every chance that she'll get out of this mess alive. Also loved the Vane/Rackham farewell - though I suspect Rackham's desire for a grand reputation will be what gets him killed. 

 

And I loved Flint's realization that the English are carrying out his exact plan for Nassau: granting the pirates pardons. No wonder he seems so lost. How can he fight the English when they're acting according to his lost love's wishes? 

I'm hoping that Mr. Scott's wound will require treatment back home on the island and that that will be the way they save Flint and company without having to somehow de-legitimize the Queen's argument and position, which, as has been pointed out, is quite rational.

 I also noted that Ben Gunn's ship had been a slave trading vessel, which was not the case for our guys. There was a reason for the Marooned to be far more vengeful where they were concerned.

   I wonder if that last scene with Jack and Anne was their good-bye to the show? If they leave to follow their fortunes, and they are no longer tied to Nassau, will the show follow them?

   I wonder if even Charles' scene partners have any idea what he is mumbling other than having read the script?

[nodorothyparker]

Very good chapter in what's been a really strong season so far.

 

First, Ben Gunn!  I love that much of the cast of Treasure Island is slowly coming into place and they're getting their own story to set up the dynamic between them by the time the book starts.  I hadn't really thought about it until now that the book crew and the historical crew have been neatly divided into separate stories all season but now that I do I'm curious to see how they reintegrate Flint and Co. when they make their inevitable escape from their Maroon captors.  I'm hoping Mr. Scott, he of the secret double life he's kept secret for 2 1/2 seasons now, makes it back to the island and somehow plays a role in that.

 

Speaking of which, I'm glad they're not going with hostile natives and instead including the story of the Maroons as well.  As much as I of course want to see all of our boys get away, I can see where the conflict with the queen and her daughter lies.  Our boys are, after all, pirates and not always a trustworthy bunch.  They're going to say whatever they need to say to not get killed and if they later come back to enslave them themselves or sell out their location, it's not like the Maroons are going to have any kind of legal protection or recourse.  Still, if the English are coming back to the area in numbers great enough to exert colonial control, that doesn't really bode well for any outlaw civilization made up of what the British overlords would consider their property either.

 

Loved that Flint seems to be taking Silver quite seriously now and the realization sitting in the cage that Silver was always watching and scheming and looking for an opening.  Yes, Flint, that is how he outsmarted you and how he's managed to stay alive this long.  As much as I also liked Flint's ruminating that what was happening to Nassau was completely of his own making from when he was a very different man, I also really loved Silver's "dude, we really have bigger priorities to worry about at the moment" expression when he was going on about it.

Edited February 14, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Neurochick]

Flint should have taken Silver seriously since that day he killed Mr. Gates.  When Silver came into the room he told him there was no way out of it and Silver said, "there's always a way."  I've often wondered what situations Silver got himself into BEFORE he met up with the Walrus crew.

 

As much as I love our pirate boys, I couldn't disagree with anything the Queen was saying: she's created a safe haven for escaped slaves: the very LAST thing she should be doing is letting go of any strangers who would probably sell them out for a couple of coins. And Mr Scott! That was a great reveal, and I only twigged about a second before he appeared on the beach. Hopefully though his wound isn't fatal: they've been wasting him so far, and I really want to see him reunited with Eleanor and his family before the end of the show.

 

 

It was interesting for me to watch this.  I love our boys, but I get the Queen too; what she is saying resonates today as well.  She's saying,  "we need to stay out of white folks' business."  While her daughter is saying "Yeah, but those same white folks are financing this whole island."  Both are valid points and both are valid today as well.  

 

On Tuesday there's going to be this "anti-Beyonce" rally somewhere in NYC.  The issue is her halftime performance at the Super Bowl last Sunday; that she was evoking the Black Panthers.  The people who are rallying are mostly those who watch too much Fox News.  What does this have to do with the Queen?  Well, here we are 300 years later and you still have clueless white people who still view everything black people do with suspicion. (remember the nonsense when Barak Obama and Michelle Obama shared a fist bump?) Queen's attitude is, "let's have our own island so we don't have to deal with this shit."  

 

I also liked that the daughter's hair was braided because there are some folk who think cornrows began with Bo Derek and I loved the conversation between mother and daughter.  This show did something a lesser show would not do, show us, the audience the point of view of black people.  A lesser show would have kept the "hostile natives" trope without showing us their side.  

 

It's also interesting that this show aired after last week's show.  Remember that beginning scene on the beach, where Max was trading the gold for black pearls?  The white men who were in charge left a lot to be desired, one was having two women perform fellatio on him and then he signed the papers, and he also said something very racist to Max.

 

I have been wondering if we'll see the future Mrs. Silver.  I am rooting for Madi, the daughter of the Queen, because to me, Max as Silver's wife would be a bit of a "whitewash" of that character.  When I read Treasure Island, I pictured Silver's wife, who is called a "negress" and a "woman of color" to actually LOOK like a black woman, meaning darker than Max.  Yes, Max is considered a "negress" by the British but the problem is that I've seen this shit done a few times too many; they'll put a white man with a black woman but she can't be "too" black.  

 

For me, I am loving this season and every episode seems to be better than the previous one.

[nodorothyparker]

Flint SHOULD have been taking Silver seriously since he helped him out of Gate's killing and taking the Spanish man o' war but I don't think he did.  My sense has always been that while he appreciated that Silver wasn't stupid or completely uneducated he always thought he was a bit of a lightweight, knowing that Silver didn't like to fight and wasn't much of a fighter.  But it was very apparent in his attitude toward him in this episode that he now understands just what Silver is capable of and sees him as an equal.  His taking him into his confidence about the Nassau pardons really sealed that for me.  Sure, it could just be that he doesn't really see a way out of that cage without them dying soon and doesn't feel like he's got much of anything left, but have we ever seen him mention his past that specifically to someone who wasn't already privy to it?

 

This was the first episode I really appreciated what all the fuss about Blackbeard was about.  His intro was good, but he's mostly been relegated to shitstirrer status since then, so to see him really step up to help Vane fight his way out and then likely mastermind the fireship that allowed their fleet to slide out in the ensuing chaos was a thing of beauty.  My husband did look at me at one point though and ask if anybody can understand what Zach McGowan is saying half the time or whether his costars also need subtitles.

[WatchrTina]

 

I'm hoping Mr. Scott, he of the secret double life he's kept secret for 2 1/2 seasons now, makes it back to the island and somehow plays a role in [Flint & Co.'s eventual escape]

That's the only way I can see this playing out.  Maybe THAT'S why Mr. Scott had to get shot on that beach -- the writers needed a reason for him to get in the boats with the escaped slaves and return to his island kingdom.  He wasn't planning on going with them before the Redcoats appeared.  Okay, I'm hanging on to that -- Mr. Scott was NOT gut-shot, he will survive and he'll be the one to allow Flint's crew to leave.  But I hope that doesn't mean the end of his involvement in the show because he just became a MUCH more interesting character.

 

As for WHY he'll let Flint & Co leave -- I've got nothing.  The Queen, alas, is right.  The safety of 1000 people is dependent upon keeping the island's existence a secret.  What could possibly motivate Mr. Scott into allowing them to leave?

 

Okay here are a few unanswered questions from the episode.

 

Where is the Man 'O War?  We saw it in the bay in episode 2.  Blackbeard asks who it belongs to and Vane says "Me and my partners so don't get any ideas."  I assumed some of Vane's men were onboard guarding it.  But when Vane went hunting in the first episode it was on a different ship -- presumably the ship he took from Ned Low.  Is the Ned Low ship one of the ships that sailed away with Blackbeard and which Vane will take command of now?  I suspect that that is the case.  So . . . who gets custody of the Man 'O War?

 

Ben Gunn says he and his crew-mates were captured when they were careening a ship on the other side of the island.  We learned in the first season that careening a ship means maneuvering it into shallow water so that it sits on its hull at low tide and careens over to one side, where it is tied down and its hull scraped of barnacles.  So . . . what happened to that ship?  If it's still sitting on its side on a beach on the other side of the island, isn't that like a neon sign saying, to anyone who sails by "Something happened here.  Come investigate."  For that matter -- what about the Walrus?  They must have left some crewmen on board -- too few to sail away (and they have almost no food even if someone already rowed a supply of water out to them).  Do we think the natives somehow forced them to join the march to the other side of the island?  Let's assume they did.  If so -- the Walrus is still floating there.  That's going to attract some attention eventually.  

 

Actually if I think about it too hard Maroon Island becomes even more ridiculous.  It seems to be standard operating procedure on the island to capture the crew of any ship that tries to use the island as a resupply stop or a place to do some repairs.  What happens to all the ships?  Do they take them out and scuttle them after stripping them of anything valuable? Hey, maybe ships going missing near this island is part of the mythos around the Bermuda Triangle.  Still -- I'd like to see the inhabitants of Maroon Island (who are escaped slaves, not sailors) figure out how to sail the Walrus into deep water and scuttle her, to say nothing of how to get a careened ship off one of their beaches.

 

ETA: Edited because "cremates" and "crew-mates" are very different words -- though come to think of it that may not be the case onboard that ship that was struck by Vane's fire-ship.

Edited February 14, 2016 by WatchrTina

[nodorothyparker]

I must have zoned out and missed Ben Gunn mentioning that his ship was careened on the other side of the island.  It doesn't help trying to figure this out that we don't know exactly where our group is in relation to the more heavily traveled parts of the Caribbean.  A quick Google-fu tells me there were Maroon "tribes" and settlements all over the region, including many of the larger islands, that had varying degrees of success navigating coexistence with governing authorities. So they could be anywhere. But we're apparently supposed to think our boys found an isolated settlement on an isolated island, yet one that's also close enough to Nassau that a group could make it there in open boats in a relatively short amount of time.  I'm no sailor but that alone would seem to suggest that maybe they're not quite as isolated as they think.

[Neurochick]

As for WHY he'll let Flint & Co leave -- I've got nothing.  The Queen, alas, is right.  The safety of 1000 people is dependent upon keeping the island's existence a secret.  What could possibly motivate Mr. Scott into allowing them to leave?

 

 

I have a feeling that the Queen may not be telling the actual truth about where the island is.    I think they're closer to Nassau and the Queen's telling the people that they're very far away from "civilization."  

 

I think if Mr. Scott gets to the island, he'll tell his wife that the British are already in Nassau and their little paradise is going to get found, so the best they can do is get the hell out and go somewhere else.  

[WatchrTina]

 

Where is the Man 'O War?  We saw it in the bay in episode 2.  Blackbeard asks who it belongs to and Vane says "Me and my partners so don't get any ideas."  I assumed some of Vane's men were onboard guarding it.  But when Vane went hunting in the first episode it was on a different ship -- presumably the ship he took from Ned Low.  Is the Ned Low ship one of the ships that sailed away with Blackbeard and which Vane will take command of now?  I suspect that that is the case.  So . . . who gets custody of the Man 'O War?

Okay quoting myself is a bit odd but I just watched it again and now I have a theory that the fire ship was Ned Low's ship.  Vane was at the helm so that implies it was HIS ship -- to dispose of as he liked.  Who else would volunteer to burn his ship to save the rest of Blackbeard's fleet?  The guy with the very public price on his head would be the most likely to make that sacrifice.  So now I'm hoping that Vane's crew took the Man 'O War (with some supplemental man-power from the other ships in Blackbeard's flotilla) and that's what Vane will be captaining this season.  Fingers crossed.

Edited February 14, 2016 by WatchrTina

[ulkis]

That was good.  I'm still a bit confused about how Jack, Anne & Charles got out of the fort -- even with a big explosion -- but I'll ignore that. Loved loved LOVED the big reveal about Mr. Scott.  HATED that 2 minutes after we learn about his double life he gets shot by red coats.  Damn

 

Can I just be the first to say that Ben Gunn is a good-looking man?  Such pretty eyes. 

 

The fire ship escape was pretty great.  Very satisfying seeing Teach's fleet sailing off in the darkness.

 

Yeah, his eyes were kinda mesmerizing lol.

 

The sparks flying onto the ship were pretty, if you know, fire-y.

 

I think Scott will be fine, otherwise they would not have left that as the cliffhanger, but I won't bet against anyone. :)

 

I did think it was a little weird/exposition-y that we got Ben Gunn's full name. Makes a bit more sense now that you guys have said that he is a character from the book.

 

I thought this episode was good, but I'm kinda ready for the Walrus Crew to get back to Nassau. Hopefully after next week's episode.

 

I liked most of Jack's stuff from tonight. The little hand wave when Vane asked him if he knew who the man yelling at the door was, I gasped a little when he thought shot the guy, "Paul something-or-other", "one last cigar, you know". heh.

 

I always have the closed captioning on so I always know what Vane is saying, now I'm curious to try to listen to him next week without them. 

[ulkis]

As for WHY he'll let Flint & Co leave -- I've got nothing.  The Queen, alas, is right.  The safety of 1000 people is dependent upon keeping the island's existence a secret.  What could possibly motivate Mr. Scott into allowing them to leave?

 

Maybe he doesn't really want England on the island, and like you say, maybe the island is actually pretty close to Nassau, so he'll actually want Flint and co to go resist? Best I've got.

[WatchrTina]

I always have the closed captioning on so I always know what Vane is saying, now I'm curious to try to listen to him next week without them.

Yeah, I just did the same thing after seeing the comments here -- watching the show with headphones on and closed-captions off on StarzPlay.com but that's not really a good test since I already knew what he was going to say. BTW, can I just say that Bear McCreary's soundtrack is amazing for this episode. I really noticed how the music enhanced the Walrus crewman's panicked run through the forest and Vane's sword fight.

The other thing I found when I want to StarzPlay.com were some "Inside the Episode" videos that I really enjoyed and a couple of trailers that I don't recall seeing before. Those trailers hint at answers to some questions we've speculated about here so I won't talk about them, but it was very interesting watching them in light of the discussions on these boards.

Edited February 15, 2016 by WatchrTina

[ulkis]

Yeah, I just did the same thing after seeing the comments here -- watching the show with headphones on and closed-captions off on StarzPlay.com but that's not really a good test since I already knew what he was going to saw.  BTW, can I just say that Bear McCreary's soundtrack is amazing for this episode.  I really noticed how the music enhanced the Walrus crewman's panicked run through the forest and Vane's sword fight.

 

The other thing I found when I want to StarzPlay.com were some "Inside the Episode" videos that I really enjoyed and a couple of trailers that I don't recall seeing before.  Those trailers hint at answers to some questions we've speculated about here so I won't talk about them, but it was very interesting watching them in light of the discussions on these boards.

 

Are you talking about

Rodgers and Eleanor kissing? I saw that in one of the promos.

[WatchrTina]

uklis no I'm talking about a lot of general stuff -- the trailer I saw is a great tease for what is to come.  It's 2 minutes long and, unless I'm forgetting things, in includes more than what was revealed in the TV trailer.  Such as:

Flint and Rogers at a sit-down on the beach, threatening one another, Silver stomping in a man's face w/ his peg leg, and plenty more Anne and Jack, (which is nice since I WAS worried they might be heading off into the sunset.)

[ulkis]

The (big spoiler)

Eleanor/Rodgers stuff is in a general promo too. But I've seen the one you're talking about too. The man whose head Silver smashes in is Dufreyne.

Edited February 14, 2016 by ulkis

[WatchrTina]

Yikes ulkis -- I am sorry I looked at that spoiler.  Serves me right for looking but that's not something that was clear from the trailer -- at least not to me.

[ulkis]

I apologize. I actually didn't notice

myself at first but then someone on the forum said it was him and I noticed his glasses.

ETA if anyone wants to see any of the trailers/promos, they're all on Starz' youtube channel.

Edited February 14, 2016 by ulkis

[Neurochick]

Ulkis, you're right about that spoiler,

who it was.  I didn't know at first but someone on Tumblr slowed it down and yes, you could see Dufreyne and that his blood splashes on Silver's face and Billy looks stunned. Actually, what Silver says is, "My name is John Silver and I've got a long, fucking memory.

Edited February 14, 2016 by Neurochick

[Slovenly Muse]

The fire ship was AWESOME. I love the way this island plot-line is playing out. It really was looking like they were going the "hostile natives" route, which would have been so disappointing. What they're doing now is really satisfying!

 

The highlight, I think, was seeing how Flint has weathered the "storms" (both emotional and literal) of his experiences and come to the realization that his work with the English to bring an end to piracy is now being used against him. That he is effectively caught between two legacies: His legacy as the Englishman who had the vision and guts to take on piracy and restore order in Nassau, and his legacy as the pirate captain who violently rejected English control. It's really something of a turning point for Flint, and it shows just how BRILLIANTLY his character has been constructed from the start. I can't wait to see how this all plays out!

[ganesh]

The escape of Charles Vane from Nassau and Woods Rogers' fleet was pretty much according to the historical accounts (at least according to Wikipedia).

 

That really happened? I was like, "That's some Farscape level blowing up stuff."

 

Mr. Scott got shot in the stomach, which is tv for living long enough as we need him to. 

[Garnett7]

Maroon Island can't be that far away from Nassau if it can be reached by long boats, which was how Mr. Scott was seeing the escaped slaves off the island. My main issue with it is timeline questions. We know that Mr. Scott has been "owned" by the Guthrie's since Eleanor was a child. He practically raised her while over-seeing Richard Guthrie's affairs in Nassau. So when did Mr. Scott have the time to establish Maroon Island? Did not a single Guthrie notice he had a wife? Or question where she went? I know you can fanwank some of that -- he kept it a secret, never told anyone about her, etc. But how did he find that island? How did he help build it while also managing his full-time, literally every day role in Nassau?

 

Cool that we've met Ben Gunn. I read the casting spoiler for season 4 that

Israel Hands will join the show next year.

 

Vane and Blackbeard were freaking awesome. I finally got why BB is such a feared legend among them. Because, otherwise, he just seemed to sulk around this season yelling "Get off my lawn, you damn kids!". Also loved Jack and his good-bye with Vane. Perfect for them.

 

Maroon Island is definitely NOT Treasure Island, IMHO. It will instead become a new home for Flint's crew since they can't return to Nassau. It's possible that BB and Vane might pick up Scott and the escaped slaves in the longboats next week and end up there, too. I fear Scott isn't long for the world. He will reunite with his wife just long enough to tell her to trust Flint. Perhaps to ask Flint to look after the place. His death will prompt his daughter to push for them to aid the fight against England. His death would push the storyline forward more than him just being wounded would.

 

And my main reason for saying it's not Treasure Island -- why would Silver need a map to find its location? He's there already. He has to leave it at some point. He could chart a course back to it without needing a treasure map.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Garnett7

[tennisgurl]

Looks like we have another possible Mrs. Silver! I really like the Queen and her daughter, and the stuff they are doing with the run away slave colony is really interesting. Because, as others have said, both of them have perfectly good points. I really do not know where this plot is going, but I am fully along for the ride. 

 

I also got really excited when Ben Gunn showed up! I am really fascinated by the combination of the real historical events (I have been googling the hell out of the actual historical characters and their lives, which really were SO dramatic and epic), and I am so pumped to see them get further into Treasure Island territory. 

[Tabasco Cat]

And Mr Scott! That was a great reveal, and I only twigged about a second before he appeared on the beach. Hopefully though his wound isn't fatal: they've been wasting him so far, and I really want to see him reunited with Eleanor and his family before the end of the show. 

 

...

 

And I loved Flint's realization that the English are carrying out his exact plan for Nassau: granting the pirates pardons. No wonder he seems so lost. How can he fight the English when they're acting according to his lost love's wishes? 

 

The escaping slaves seemed to throw the wounded Mr. Scott into the boat and are taking him with them. The easy guess is that he will tell his wife to let Flint and his crew go, but the writers have surprised me more than once so I'm hopeful whatever happens will be even better than that. How far away can that island be if a small boat like that is capable of reaching it from Nassau?

 

It was awesome to watch Flint open up like that to Mr. Silver. He had not talked of any of that, his former life, his ambitions before becoming Flint, to anyone but Miranda and Lord Ashe. Silver was listening to him with a look on his face like, "WTF are you even talking about?!" Like he couldn't believe what he was seeing. The man behind Flint finally revealed to Silver. "I have no more lies so maybe let this be the end of Flint," was very moving, to me at least, because Flint's rage is dying down again as he remembers what James, Thomas and Miranda had originally set out to do.

 

It's cool to be rooting for a character named Mr. Scott who's not telling his Captain how he cannot change the laws of physics.

[ganesh]

It depends how the guys get off this island. Silver might not be a position to know his way back if someone just throws him into a ship and sails out. 

The shot of the peak seemed rather deliberate to me and this isn't a show to play cutsey. This may not be Treasure Island, but to be definitively not, seems premature.

[meep.meep]

Flint SHOULD have been taking Silver seriously since he helped him out of Gate's killing and taking the Spanish man o' war but I don't think he did.  My sense has always been that while he appreciated that Silver wasn't stupid or completely uneducated he always thought he was a bit of a lightweight, knowing that Silver didn't like to fight and wasn't much of a fighter.  But it was very apparent in his attitude toward him in this episode that he now understands just what Silver is capable of and sees him as an equal.  His taking him into his confidence about the Nassau pardons really sealed that for me.  Sure, it could just be that he doesn't really see a way out of that cage without them dying soon and doesn't feel like he's got much of anything left, but have we ever seen him mention his past that specifically to someone who wasn't already privy to it?

 

This was the first episode I really appreciated what all the fuss about Blackbeard was about.  His intro was good, but he's mostly been relegated to shitstirrer status since then, so to see him really step up to help Vane fight his way out and then likely mastermind the fireship that allowed their fleet to slide out in the ensuing chaos was a thing of beauty.  My husband did look at me at one point though and ask if anybody can understand what Zach McGowan is saying half the time or whether his costars also need subtitles.

I can't understand a word that Zach McGowan is saying. The sound guys are letting down the side.

The Man o War was a victim of the collision between history and the Treasure Island story. I bet we never hear a word about it again.

The fire ship was great!

[luckyroll3]

I must have zoned out and missed Ben Gunn mentioning that his ship was careened on the other side of the island.  It doesn't help trying to figure this out that we don't know exactly where our group is in relation to the more heavily traveled parts of the Caribbean.  A quick Google-fu tells me there were Maroon "tribes" and settlements all over the region, including many of the larger islands, that had varying degrees of success navigating coexistence with governing authorities. So they could be anywhere. But we're apparently supposed to think our boys found an isolated settlement on an isolated island, yet one that's also close enough to Nassau that a group could make it there in open boats in a relatively short amount of time.  I'm no sailor but that alone would seem to suggest that maybe they're not quite as isolated as they think.

 

 

I have a feeling that the Queen may not be telling the actual truth about where the island is.    I think they're closer to Nassau and the Queen's telling the people that they're very far away from "civilization."  

I was wracking my brain this entire episode trying to figure where this damned island is.  I agree, it has to be somewhere close to Nassau.  At first, I thought it was somewhere within The Bahamas/Turks and Caicos, because they have over 700 islands/cays.  It would probably be real easy back then to create a hidden settlement on one of those.  But they don't have running water like the river we saw.  So maybe it's somewhere near Cuba, Hispanola, etc, or maybe more north by Bermuda?  So stumped.

 

Otherwise, really great episode, as usual.

[Tabasco Cat]

The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroon_%28people%29 history of Maroon peoples is very interesting. The wikipedia article gives some information on where they were settled but doesn't hold too many clues for where the Black Sails island might be. How long can people survive in an open rowboat without effective shelter from the elements and a significant supply of food and water? 3 days? If they can manage 10 kts rowing (maybe more, maybe less depending on the currents) perhaps they might cover 700 nautical miles (best case) which is about 800 statute miles (or 1,300 km). That covers a pretty large area. Even at half that number, a circle centered on Nassau extending out 400 statute miles (740 km) covers a good swath of ocean including all of the Florida Keys, most of Cuba, the Turks and Caicos islands, the northern coast of Jamaica and the northwest tip of Haiti. And all the smaller islands in between.

 

In a previous episode when they were becalmed they figured the storm had swept them into the Sargasso Sea, which is more to the northeast of Nassau, so if this were real (and not a fictional TV show) the island ruled by the Maroon people is probably somewhere between Nassau and Puerto Rico in what would be today's The Bahamas or the Turks and Caicos.

 

Meh. Fan fiction :)

Edited February 15, 2016 by Tabasco Cat

[ulkis]

Maroon Island can't be that far away from Nassau if it can be reached by long boats, which was how Mr. Scott was seeing the escaped slaves off the island. My main issue with it is timeline questions. We know that Mr. Scott has been "owned" by the Guthrie's since Eleanor was a child. He practically raised her while over-seeing Richard Guthrie's affairs in Nassau. So when did Mr. Scott have the time to establish Maroon Island? Did not a single Guthrie notice he had a wife? Or question where she went? I know you can fanwank some of that -- he kept it a secret, never told anyone about her, etc. But how did he find that island?

Maybe the only thing he was only there once and the only thing he does is send stuff back to the island? And that's why the wife is pretty much the undisputed leader, because she did/does pretty much everything, established the place, etc.

Maybe Mr Guthrie assumed she drowned in whatever shipwreck took them there and Scott was elsewhere and she managed to get word to him? I'm aware I'm fanwanking overtime here lol but honestly I'm just trying to come up with a way it could have happened just to see if I can.

I looked up the guy who played Ben Gunn and he was in a mini series called "Strangers and Saints" about the Pilgrims with Ray Stevenson and the actor who played Muldoon, funny.

[Neurochick]

The last time I was in the Caribbean (in 2015), I remember when we left St. Martin, seeing so many islands right next to each other, same thing when we left Bermuda; I guess that's why I don't bother to think about where the island could be, could be anywhere.

 

I really do think that

Madi could end up as Mrs. Silver...I think that she's going to be in season 4 , I mean I keep seeing this hashtag of pirateprincess, so who knows?

[The Kings Foot]

 

Ben Gunn says he and his crew-mates were captured when they were careening a ship on the other side of the island.  We learned in the first season that careening a ship means maneuvering it into shallow water so that it sits on its hull at low tide and careens over to one side, where it is tied down and its hull scraped of barnacles.  So . . . what happened to that ship?  If it's still sitting on its side on a beach on the other side of the island, isn't that like a neon sign saying, to anyone who sails by "Something happened here.  Come investigate."  For that matter -- what about the Walrus?  They must have left some crewmen on board -- too few to sail away (and they have almost no food even if someone already rowed a supply of water out to them).  Do we think the natives somehow forced them to join the march to the other side of the island?  Let's assume they did.  If so -- the Walrus is still floating there.  That's going to attract some attention eventually.  

 

Actually if I think about it too hard Maroon Island becomes even more ridiculous.  It seems to be standard operating procedure on the island to capture the crew of any ship that tries to use the island as a resupply stop or a place to do some repairs.  What happens to all the ships?  Do they take them out and scuttle them after stripping them of anything valuable? Hey, maybe ships going missing near this island is part of the mythos around the Bermuda Triangle

 

 

The Bahamas were far less populated in this time period and do have 700 islands so the idea that  Maroons could be hiding on an uncharted island isnt a bad one.  Even today only about 30 of them have permanent populations.  The Queen was clearly surprised at Flint's crew showing up  so  ships dont land on that island often.  Coming so soon after the Slave ship she's probably wondering if thier island is now "on the map".

 

The bigger issue is that Maroon island is too forested and mountainous to be in the Bahamas. It would be better suited for the Lesser Antilles  but I dont see how Flint gets from the Sargasso sea to there or how the ex slaves row there. An island off the coast of the Greater Antilles works but how Flints lands there bypassing the Bahamas is impossible. 

[ulkis]

I really do think that

Madi could end up as Mrs. Silver...I think that she's going to be in season 4 , I mean I keep seeing this hashtag of pirateprincess, so who knows?

 

I think she might be too, cause the cable guide info for episode 3.6 says

Madi comes to Silver's aid

. Maybe that means Anne and Max do run off together after all!

[taanja]

I can't understand a word that Zach McGowan is saying. The sound guys are letting down the side.

The Man o War was a victim of the collision between history and the Treasure Island story. I bet we never hear a word about it again.

The fire ship was great!

I have no problem understanding Vane. but hey. I watch a lot of foreign shows so crazy accents/voices are my jam!

 

Anyway -- I love this show. Pirates aye aye matey! In fact -- I have begun a marathon watch of earlier seasons because I forgot how good this show is!

 

I am pretty much unspoiled when I watch and every ep so far has been amazing. I didn't realize that Vane is based on a real person? and I stupidly clicked on someone's spoiler tag and read his fate. I wish I could un-see what I saw. sigh. I have visions of Eleanore and Charles re-uniting in a dramatic and kind of brutal way if their history is anything to go by.

 

I like the new character Woodes Rogers is it? So he is based on a real person as well? The only one I ever heard of is  Blackbeard -- Edward Teach. I think John Silver is based on a character from Treasure Island so he wasn't real.

 

I have resisted looking up the real pirates and reading about their fate -- cuz it is much more exciting (for me) to watch and yet not know what is supposed to happen. (Though I did catch a spoiler thing on STARZ about the way Charles Vane escaped from Woodes Rogers.)  I was like-- say what? That was based on real events? wow even better!

Edited February 16, 2016 by taanja

[Neurochick]

I think she might be too, cause the cable guide info for episode 3.6 says

Madi comes to Silver's aid

. Maybe that means Anne and Max do run off together after all!

You know ulkis, I like that because according to Treasure Island,

Silver really trusts his wife to manage his affairs while he's away and I just can't see that being Max.  I wouldn't trust her at all, but Madi, yeah, I'd trust her.  

Edited February 16, 2016 by Neurochick

[ulkis]

I don't know, I think Max seems faithful to the people she's declared her loyalty too. She was faithful to Eleanor and now to Anne.

 

To tie back into this episode, I did miss seeing her in this one.

 

I am pretty much unspoiled when I watch and every ep so far has been amazing. I didn't realize that Vane is based on a real person? and I stupidly clicked on someone's spoiler tag and read his fate. I wish I could un-see what I saw. sigh. I have visions of Eleanore and Charles re-uniting in a dramatic and kind of brutal way if their history is anything to go by.

 

I don't think the writers are 100% faithful to history, so I wouldn't worry too much about history spoilers, although I guess they do use it as a general outline. I'm enjoying being relatively unspoiled myself. Usually whenever I watch a costume drama (although it seems weird to call this show one) I usually know a decent amount of "spoilers".

 

I like the new character Woodes Rogers is it? So he is based on a real person as well?

 

Yes. So are Rackham and Anne. Oh, and Hornigold. Not sure about anyone else.

[Neurochick]

Wait ulkis, is your spoiler that,

Silver is STILL on that Maroon island in episode six?  Oh...I see, maybe that's going to be the romance of this season...we'll see.

[ulkis]

Oh, no, I have no idea. All the cable guide says is that

she comes to Silver's aid.

They could be off or on the island still. But

Flint is definitely off because it says he and Teach fight over the future of Nassau

Edited February 16, 2016 by ulkis

[meep.meep]

Vane, Hornigold, Rackham, Bonney, Woodes Rogers, Blackbeard were real people.

 

I'm reading a history book called The Republic of Pirates by Colin Woodard that's about all this.

[taanja]

Ok. I couldn't help myself. I just went and read all the histories I could find on Vane, Hornigold, Woodes Rogers, Anne Bonny Calico Jack Rackham (sp?) and Blackbeard.

 

All I have to say is...Hm? Seems the show is following some of the historical stuff but it seems Rackham and Bonny didn't have a long life history as mentioned on the show. In fact -- she was married to Whatshisname Bonny (who actually was a little snitch for Rogers) and began an affair with Rackham after Woodes Rogers arrives in Nassau. So a little artistic stretch there. and who is going to be Mary Read? I wonder?

 

I must say though --- the writers/producers/powers that be are doing a mighty fine job recreating the good ole days of the pyrates.

[Scaeva]

Speaking of real pirates...

 

In one of the spoiler tagged remarks I read previously either in this thread or another one, someone mentioned that

there was a casting call for the Treasure Island character Israel Hands for Season 4.

 

Robert Louis Stevenson took the name of that character from a real pirate who sailed with Blackbeard, although Treasure Island never indicates he is supposed to be the same person. Still, with this series mashing up the fictional characters of Treasure Island with real 18th Century Caribbean pirates, I wonder if the series might combine the two and have Israel Hands be someone who sailed with Blackbeard, who later joins Flint after Blackbeard's demise. The real Israel Hands wasn't present when Blackbeard fought his final battle and was killed, which would be convenient for the writers if they were to make Treasure Island's Israel Hands, the historical Israel Hands.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Scaeva

[Garnett7]

Total speculation on my part but I wonder if the maid character to Eleanor, I think they're calling her Mrs. Hudson, will be Mary Read. The show plays a little fast and loose with some elements of history so why not her, too. She seems to have her own agenda on that ship, eavesdropping on Rogers and all.

 

As for Madi, I'm confident that she

and Silver will hook up. That's totally coming. But we'll see if she becomes Mrs. Silver. The show loves playing bait and switch, like with Thomas/Flint. I could see that with Silver, too. Make us wonder if she's his future wife and it end up being someone else.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Garnett7

[Ripley Rules]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned in an earlier post or another thread, but the actress who plays Mrs. Hudson is Anna-Louise Plowman, who's Toby Stephen's wife IRL. 

[Neurochick]

Garnett, regarding Madi,

I'm just assuming because in Treasure Island, Silver's wife is described as a "negress."  Doesn't have to be Madi, some think it could be Max, but you never know with this show.  

[Ravenya003]

For the record...

 

Historical Figures:

Charles Vane

Jack Rackham

Anne Bonny

Benjamin Hornigold

Woodes Rogers

Edward Teach "Blackbeard"

 

Treasure Island characters:

James Flint

John Silver

Billy Bones

Benjamin Gunn

 

Original characters:

Eleanor Guthrie

Max

Miranda Barlow

Everyone else, basically.

[taanja]

That is very helpful Ravenya003. I believe I read Treasure Island years and years ago -- back when I was a child. I can't remember anything at all -- especially characters names. *** disclaimer ***  and yet.... I have no desire to read it again.

 

So Eleanore Guthrie is a made - up person/character? Well she is one of my favorites. Pragmatic and pugnacious is how I would describe her. My kind of woman!

 

May I ask a question?

 

I have read through this thread and what I am seeing is-- even if a character portrayed on this show is based on a historical person that one can easily research -- we are supposed to put historical facts under spoiler tag?

[Bort]

May I ask a question?

I have read through this thread and what I am seeing is-- even if a character portrayed on this show is based on a historical person that one can easily research -- we are supposed to put historical facts under spoiler tags?

Yes, for history that's not very notorious. Most of these characters based on real life people would require a Google search or a trip to Wikipedia to find out their fates, it's not often known off the top of one's head.