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War And Peace (2016) - General Discussion


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Dano is a good Pierre, a tough role to make interesting, since he seems such a muddled weakling for much of the story.

But Pierre does find his strength eventually, and Dano should have a lot more range with the character.

Lily James is fine as Natasha, but no one can match the charm or magic of Audrey Hepburn as Natasha in a older version. Netflix is your friend here. Hepburn is enchanting.

Am I alone in finding Andrei badly cast? The actor seems to have so little emotion visible, and there are notably few sparks with James, who seems to be doing all the heavy lifting. Yes Andrei is a brooding, repressed character who comes alive when he falls for Natasha, but...felt flat to me.

Scenery is gorgeous as are the sets, and I love the story, so I am on for the duration.

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I'm still watching but I'm annoyed with some of the actors who are British, like Lilly James, who can't speak with a Russian accent.  They're not even trying.

 

I'm okay with this.  It's my understanding that upper class Russians spoke French at court, so using actors with one accent is probably a lot easier than trying to find actors who can speak French with a Russian accent, or Russian with a French accent.  So it's like having audible subtitles.  Or something. 

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I know they filmed this in Lithuania, Latvia and Russia, but does anyone know if the "Czar's Palace" exterior is for real? Because that was spectacular. Ditto the ballroom scene. (Norton said in an interview they filmed it in "Catherine's Summer Palace" in St. Petersburg.)

Gah... with the commercial breaks!

The Summer Palace is now part of the famous Hermitage museum.  From the photos, I would say that they did use the exteriors and some of the interiors.  They probably had to do some post-CGI work to "erase" some modern features.  Spectacular , is just one of the many words for it.  I'd love to hear from anyone who has been there in person.

 

I agree with you about the commercial breaks!  Was part 1 shown without breaks, because I don't remember them.

 

Can someone tell me what happened with Sonya when she went into the barn?  Foreshadowing?

 

I'm curious about Uncle Mikhail living "the old way".  Was he just an eccentric older relation or is the Rostov title relatively new?

 

When the Tsar walked past Pierre and took Helene by the hand to start the dance, I wondered to myself if that was just the way it worked with Queen Victoria's son Bertie, also well know for his affairs with married women.  Everyone knows, but no one comments.

 

 It's my understanding that upper class Russians spoke French at court, so using actors with one accent is probably a lot easier than trying to find actors who can speak French with a Russian accent, or Russian with a French accent.  So it's like having audible subtitles.  Or something.

At the time, it was said that most of the Russian nobility spoke only French and did not know their own country's language of Russian or "the peasant language".

Edited by elle
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Oy with the commercials already!

 

I am enjoying this more and more. I like all the actors, even though my two main issues with this series (cliffnotes version and being so British I keep expecting the characters to break out into God Save the Queen) continue, its doing a lot right. 

 

Pierre Pierre Pierre. Look at your life, look at your choices. Why would you want Helene anywhere near you? Go back to your pig friends! 

 

The scenery is the real star of the show. The locations are just breathtaking. 

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I've actually started reading the book and it's not boring at all (except the war parts...I do try but they don't interest me) . All the soap opera parts are even more soapy in the book and Pierre has the most hilarious inner monologues (especially about when he is "courting" his wife. Like he sees her as a woman but says, "But she's stupid!") I'm a little more than halfway through and can't put it down!

 

I'm so happy you wrote that, because that's exactly what I felt reading the book. I did manage to plow through the war-and-politics scenes the second time I read it, but it is definitely the "peace" scenes where the book really takes off. It is so deliciously soapy. Jane Austen would shake her head at all the scandalous goings on, but I love it.

 

I would love to follow you guys here, but I watch the British 6-part version, and I have no idea how far you guys have gotten in the storylines, so not to spoil stuff inadvertently, I'll stay off commenting until the last episode...

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In the opening scene I started humming "Ten Duel Commandments" from Hamilton

 

Hee! I was waiting for the doctor to turn around 'to give him deniability'!

 

It took a visit to wiki to quell my upset over the appearance of the waltz in Regency era. I was thinking it didn't popularize until mid-century. But no, it's era-appropriate after all. 

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The scenery is the real star of the show. The locations are just breathtaking.

No debate there!

 

 

By the way, it dawns on me that my assumption Dolokhov was cheating may not be warranted?

Someone else may confirm this, but Dolokhov was having an affair with Helene.   I think that Sonya really dodged a bad fate and made the right decision to turn him down.  (now if it had been Denisov)

 

In part one, there is the that confusing montage of Pierre's night of debauch, there is a clip of a bear.  Doing a little googling about Dolokhov reveals that in that night he leads the party to tie a policeman to the back of the bear and then throw them both into the river.

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The waltz was dirty dancing. Byron was scandalized enough to write a satirical poem. 

 

By the way, it dawns on me that my assumption Dolokhov was cheating may not be warranted?

 

Someone else may confirm this, but Dolokhov was having an affair with Helene.   I think that Sonya really dodged a bad fate and made the right decision to turn him down.  (now if it had been Denisov)

 

I am on the UK schedule. There is a scene in British version where Dolokhov is having sex with Helene in the dining room. I guess they cut that out for the North American release.

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I'm still watching but I'm annoyed with some of the actors who are British, like Lilly James, who can't speak with a Russian accent.  They're not even trying.

If this were realistic the characters would be speaking Russian, which I can't understand or French which I can, but for these historical productions British English is the standard.  So I am suspending disbelief while watching.

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To me there is nothing worse than a phony accent. I'm totally fine with the British accents. 

 

I ready War and Peace many moons again so I don't really remember it. It took awhile for me to learn all the characters (IMBD was my friend), but now that I'm not confused anymore, I'm really loving the production--beautiful costumes, beautiful scenery, beautiful people--I'm happy.

If I hadn't known Andrew Davies wrote the screenplay, I would have guessed. 

 

Just a note, I've been watching (recording first so I can skip those many commercials) on A&E, and noticed it wasn't in my queue for next week, so after checking around, found it on Lifetime. A&E has something else programmed for next Monday night. It's rather confusing for people who record their programs. 

Edited by Jolie
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Also just watching for the scenery, and the horses.  It's just a gorgeous soap opera and I don't really care about the plot, except I hope Andrei and Natasha stay together.  I find them a charming couple.  Pierre, though.  Looks like he needs a good laxative.  His face is perpetually sad/puzzled and IMHO the actor has no range.

 

Was veryvery excited to see a commercial for the latest version of "And Then There Were None."  That is getting rave reviews.

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The waltz was dirty dancing. Byron was scandalized enough to write a satirical poem. 

 

By the way, it dawns on me that my assumption Dolokhov was cheating may not be warranted?

This was one of the first historical novels - Tolstoy apparently fact checked everything.  In the novel, first Helene starts dancing with one of the Tsar's adjutants, then Andre asks Natasha to dance, after Pierre asks him.  So, there are only two couples on the dance floor for a while.

 

Dolokhov may not have been cheating, but he was determined to ruin Rostov.  The 43,000 rubles is an amount that he decided ahead of time.

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The Summer Palace is now part of the famous Hermitage museum.  From the photos, I would say that they did use the exteriors and some of the interiors.  They probably had to do some post-CGI work to "erase" some modern features.  Spectacular , is just one of the many words for it.  I'd love to hear from anyone who has been there in person.

Oh, oh! <raises hand>. I had the pleasure of visiting the Hermitage and the Summer Palace a few years ago. The Hermitage is breathtaking. Aside from the paintings and sculptures, every surface, floor to ceiling, is a work of art. Just gorgeous. In fact the old part of St Petersburg is lined with beautiful, brightly painted palaces, one after the other along the river. They are government buildings now but the facades have been preserved. The Summer Palace is out in the country and is humongous. It is also so extravagant it borders on cartoonish. It is an assault on the eyes with all the gold furnishings and decor and makes Versailles look shabby. Beautiful, yes, but really over the top.

 

ETA since I finally got to see the second half of this episode:  The shot of the Summer Palace at the beginning of the ball scene gives you an idea of how enormous it is.  And the ball itself was filmed in the SP ballroom.  It is quite large and everything is gold.

Edited by Haleth
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That did not bother me.  It was the occasional slip of what seem to be modern slang "yeah" instead of "yes".  

 

This is my pet peeve. People keep saying, "The thing is..." This is not something people of that time would say. It happens on Downton Abbey all the time too. The writer assumes the viewers will find the characters more relatable if they talk like we do. I've tried to reconcile myself to it, but to me it's the difference between a truly top notch script and a dumbed-down one. 

 

That said, I would watch this with the sound turned off just to see the locations and costumes. What a visual feast! 

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As noted in the thread for Ep 2, US viewers of the show on either A&E or History Channels will see the timeslot preempted. Only Lifetime is airing the third installment at the usual Monday 9 pm slot.

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I was so disappointed they didn't include the part in the ballroom where Andrei is watching Natasha dance with someone else and tells himself that if she turns around and looks back at him he's going to marry her. I know that is in the movie version with Audrey Hepburn and Mel Ferrer, but I'm pretty sure I remember it being in the book. It's been a very very very long time since I've read it though.

Edited by GirlvsTV
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And it is a bad news for fellow Canadians. Since Lifetime Canada is a different entity with Lifetime USA, their programming is not identical. Lifetime Canada does not carry War and Peace. I checked. So after half the show, we are simply SOL.

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I'm okay with this.  It's my understanding that upper class Russians spoke French at court, so using actors with one accent is probably a lot easier than trying to find actors who can speak French with a Russian accent, or Russian with a French accent.  So it's like having audible subtitles.  Or something. 

So true!  Being interested in the history of the reach of the kin of Queen Victoria and seeing how German, Greek (via Germany/Britian) and British women were married to cousins to cement all the thrones.......German, French and English were the main languages.  

 

I am enjoying this mini series.

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Oh, Pierre. I feel like that phrase is often said in the show and also in the book in essence.

Pierre in the book is one of my favorite literary characters of all time. This version of Pierre is a little different but also great. He's a doofus by nature but so kind that you can't hold it against him. And he has a sunny disposition towards his friends even when he himself may be depressed.

Both Andrei and Pierre are suicidal though. It's a pity that this well shot series is so condensed that it jumps from plot point to plot point with little transition. They couldn't have made a 12 episodes mini series?! That's why it's a little jarring for Pierre to be in love with Natasha after only interacting a couple of times in the show.

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It's a pity that this well shot series is so condensed that it jumps from plot point to plot point with little transition. They couldn't have made a 12 episodes mini series?! That's why it's a little jarring for Pierre to be in love with Natasha after only interacting a couple of times in the show.

I feel like they used the Wikipedia page to write the script. Everything has been done well, but it's all been so quick, like they have a mile long list of plot points that they need to cram in. I disagree about Pierre and Natasha though. Ever since the first episode when he went to see her instead of going to his sick father's bedside, the seed has been planted. It's the only relationship the show has portrayed that has any depth other than the friendship between Pierre and Andrei. All the other relationships have been nothing more than brief blips of infatuation, even the grand love affair between Andrei and Natasha (that I still got swept up in because they're both so pretty.)

 

I really felt for Natasha in this episode, even though her actions were entirely her fault. Her family, while still accepted in society are treated like outcasts, her fiance skips town for a year and his family is icy and unwelcoming toward her (not to put fault on Maria who is dealing with her own shit), and she's been raised in a household where Daddy will clean up all the kids messes. Of course she's not going to think twice when Tall Dark and Handsome comes knocking. I don't agree with her actions, but Lilly James played the arc well and I really sympathized with this young girl who made a bad decision. 

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I disagree about Pierre and Natasha though. Ever since the first episode when he went to see her instead of going to his sick father's bedside, the seed has been planted. It's the only relationship the show has portrayed that has any depth other than the friendship between Pierre and Andrei. All the other relationships have been nothing more than brief blips of infatuation, even the grand love affair between Andrei and Natasha (that I still got swept up in because they're both so pretty.)

Oh, I have no doubt there's love between Pierre and Natasha. They both adored each other but it was shown more like a brotherly love until the latest episode. I do agree that their relationship and friendship between Pierre and Andrei are the only ones with emotional beats.

 

The thing between Andrei and Natasha was just infatuation from both sides. They see in each other what the other doesn't have and wanted it. But at the end of the day, they barely know each other and their personalities are too different to be compatible in a relationship. And young Natasha with such a naive view of love (waiting to be swept up like a fairy-tale), putting a lot of demand and expectation from herself and also on Andrei. What's with the constant lament of not being able to remember his face?

 

I guess the actor playing Princess Marya is doing a great job from general opinion but it's all too weepy for me. Not sure the fault lies in the actor or the character (perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't remember the character being that sad sack in the book). I thought the most honest performances are given by the actors playing Pierre, Nikolai (the remorse in the scene with his father after he gambled away the money was amazing) and Andrei.

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I think Lily James did a great job in this episode. It was frustrating to watch her fall for Mr. Tall, Dark, and Incestuous, but I still bought it, and I still felt bad for her after everything fell apart. She made one mistake, and now her life is a mess.

 

Poor Sonya. She really has her head on right, but she still gets treated like the Poor Relation.

 

I really wish this miniseries was longer. There is just so much more to get through, I feel like we are just getting a glimpse of the story.  

Edited by tennisgurl
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Criminey, the locations are spectacular. I literally (no, really) gasped at that enormous white room with the plasterwork that Pierre and... somebody pedi-conferenced in to. It was maybe on screen for 30 seconds. How does one get to be a location scout? Where do I sign up?

 

I've never read W&P, but this does seem like the Cliffs Notes version, which, given only eight hours of run time, I suppose it must. Some of the relationships could have been made a bit clearer (is Stephen Rea's prince related to Pierre somehow?), but I just gloss over it and assume everyone is everyone else's cousin, however distant.

Dano and Rea are walking away with this and not looking back. Poor, dreamy James Norton, given a character who's is all interior and directors telling him to smile less. What's an actor to do? Good thing he looks great in those sumptuous costumes.

 

I'm watching this on Lifetime, and every commercial break is an arghh...

I found out when I downloaded it on demand, (I have Direct TV), that the commercials are gone. There's only a pregnant pause briefly where commercials used to be.

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Both Andrei and Pierre are suicidal though. It's a pity that this well shot series is so condensed that it jumps from plot point to plot point with little transition. They couldn't have made a 12 episodes mini series?! That's why it's a little jarring for Pierre to be in love with Natasha after only interacting a couple of times in the show.

 

 

I think Lily James did a great job in this episode. It was frustrating to watch her fall for Mr. Tall, Dark, and Incestuous, but I still bought it, and I still felt bad for her after everything fell apart. She made one mistake, and now her life is a mess.

 

Poor Sasha. She really has her head on right, but she still gets treated like the Poor Relation.

You mean Sonya, I think.

 

I think the jumping from plot point to plot point hurt the whole seduction of Natasha, which I recall as being much more emotional, but I am also remembering the King Vidor movie.  From that I recall that Sonya called on Pierre to help and he was the one to chase away Anatole not the house staff.  All the while Sonya is listening to the heart breaking cries of Natasha at being locked in and kept from her "lurve".

 

Whether or not the love between Natasha and Andrei was merely infatuation, she was a very stupid, stupid girl to fall for bad boy Anatole. 

 

 

 

I LOVE Tom Burke ....that is all

He plays such a rotten character well.  I did really enjoy the scene where he apologizes to Pierre.  Was it real remorse or the eve of battle.

 

I love the horses!  I want Pierre's horse!

Edited by elle
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On the one hand, Natasha was indeed very stupid to fall for Anatole. The Anatole in this version is also too good at being a bit of a creep. However something that the series and modern audiences don't really see is how sheltered girls like Natasha were. In the books, her background, youth and personality made it difficult for her to endure the separation from Andrei. It was her first time truly in love and he was rather silly about it too "Yes, we're totally engaged except we're not since you can totally feel unobliged if you meet someone else except you know I'd hate that." You can only feel truly sorry for her.

 

Something that I like about Tolstoy is how he really showcases how Russian and upper class society treated women like Natasha and Anna in Anna Karenina. It's alright for men to have desires and go for them, but as a woman, if you make a mistake like falling for some other man you're not suppose to, you're considered fallen and you're not considered a good girl.

 

This Pierre is really growing on me.

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Everybody treats Pierre like a doofus ... but he's quickly turning into the only real adult (of the men) in this thing.  His love for Natasha - and the way he sticks up for her - is lovely.  

 

Which is not to say that Natasha didn't screw up big-time ... of course she did, and Andrei had a right to be angry and hurt.  But Andrei basically admitted he loved the idea of her innocent "soul" and not actually her.  

 

Anatole and Helene are real creeps.  Seriously, what is their problem?!

 

I was happy something nice finally happened for Marya (Nickolai maybe falling for her) ... but totally not cool that it's going to happen at Sonya's expense.  Oh, poor Sonya. 

 

I was not at all sorry when Marya and Andrei's jerk of a father died.  Yeah, he was nice to her for about five seconds before he died ... too little, too late, buddy.  

 

 

Boris' "WTF?" face when Napoleon tugged on his ear cracked me up.  

Edited by SlovakPrincess
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Oh Pierre, to be a man of the Enlightenment, you have to understand what it is you're trying to enlighten. That being said he's still my second favorite character.

Number one is the commanding general. No one seems to get that his practice of managed retreats, along with an occasional neglect of the emperor's "when in doubt, charge" mentality, is the only reason Russia still has an intact army to take advantage of a chance to beat Napoleon.

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One thing that becomes crashingly clear to me from watching this show is how awesome it is not to be young anymore. There isn't a single face among them I didn't want to smack some sense into!

 

I got a huge charge out of Boris's seduction of Julia Kuragina, with all the tortured sighing. Very funny.

 

I once spent some time researching why there are so many prince/princesses in these stories. I don't remember most of it (and I'm too lazy to do it again), but as I recall, it's not that the royal family was so big, it's that 'prince' meant something different in Russia -- it was another stratum of aristocracy. Other posters who know more than I do, please feel free to correct me.

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It's kind of annoying when the characters rewrite history so that Andrei just left her alone. It just did what the father hoped, which is prove that Natasha never really loved Andrei. Andrei realizing that Natasha would probably change her mind proves love isn't blind after all, it's just too horny to care. The story evidently wants her to be forgiven because. 

 

The unrelieved evil of the Helene and Anatole may be convenient for audience hissing cues, but it's starting to make me root for the persecuted victims of the author. Tolstoy has immense sympathy for everyone else. Why create such preposterous characters just to boo at?

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I once spent some time researching why there are so many prince/princesses in these stories. I don't remember most of it (and I'm too lazy to do it again), but as I recall, it's not that the royal family was so big, it's that 'prince' meant something different in Russia -- it was another stratum of aristocracy. Other posters who know more than I do, please feel free to correct me.

 

Maybe "prince" was used in place of the title "duke?"   I don't know.  Just guessing.

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Maybe "prince" was used in place of the title "duke?"   I don't know.  Just guessing.

"Prince" is the English term typically used to translate "knyaz".

 

If you look at films about Anastasia, she's often referred to as Princess Anastasia, in accordance with English/western European notions about the proper title for the daughter a monarch, as opposed to her actual title, Grand Duchess.

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I'm enjoying this so much! The scenery, the palaces in the snow, the beautiful actors, the story! Tolstoy rules.

I love the new relationship with Nikolai and Marya, I think it's a mirror image of Pierre and Natasha -- one partner sweet, beautiful and a little bit weak, with the other plainer looking but morally strong. I might have more sympathy for Sonya if we had seen more of her, but so far, for me she's just been the girl you want to tell, "He's just not that into you." Plus Nickolai really does owe it to his family to marry a bit of money.

I think Prince Andrei truly did love Natasha. The talk about seeing her soul when she spoke of the old man proved it to me. Like Angel in "Tess of the D'Urbervilles", I don't blame either man for being disillusioned. The girls' "innocence," was part of what they fell in love with. I don't blame Natasha for falling for Anatole either, she hasn't had the movies and novels that we have had to teach her about those sort of men. I only blame the old prince with his ridiculous one year condition. That's a long, long time for a young girl with no job, school or hobby to occupy herself.

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The unrelieved evil of the Helene and Anatole may be convenient for audience hissing cues, but it's starting to make me root for the persecuted victims of the author. Tolstoy has immense sympathy for everyone else. Why create such preposterous characters just to boo at?

Although perhaps that's realistic, that you would end up with some purely selfish, hedonistic people in the "landed" classes who have nothing to do but collect whatever income has been set for them by inheritance or marriage.

You also get people like Pierre and Andrei, who have an existential crisis and search for purpose. Or Marya, who looks to religion and looks at her role as princess as a duty to be performed responsibly (even though she's awkward at the social aspect of it). Or the young women, like Natasha, who look forward to their idea of what true love will be. And Nickolai and Boris are trying to establish themselves through military service.

But I think you would get people like Helene and Anatole, who are comfortable where they are in life and see no reason to do anything but amuse themselves ... and if it's at someone else's expense, what do they care? So far, it hasn't backfired on them.

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They all live off serfs, which Tolstoy left out by and large. Although I'm not literally outraged at the unfairness to Helene and Anatole, I am a little uncertain at this point why their straying across respectable conventions about sex are so much more unforgivable than everyone else's. (No, I'm not seeing the incest.) Convention said Helene gets married regardless of whether she wants to have sex with the suitable candidates like Bezukhov. Ignoring a command to put out for a lifetime with someone you don't like versus not being able to wait a year? I'm not seeing one as unredeemable evil and the other as a innocent folly.But maybe i'm dense. Count Rostov doesn't do much of anything but collect his rents and spend money either.

Edited by sjohnson
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I don't think Natasha is blameless, and I can understand Andrei not wanting to forgive her (even though he did say he'd understand if she couldn't wait a year ...). But she was being selfish and dumb and she hurt Andrei.

And in a sense, Helene is just playing the cards she's been dealt. But both she and Anatole do take it to a whole other level ... they BOTH encouraged Anatole's romancing Natasha, knowing he was already married, knowing Natasha had no idea he was married, and knowing that Anatole really was not desperately in love with Natasha as he claimed. It was a game to both of them. And they didn't care what happened to Natasha at the end.

Also, Pierre kind of got tricked into marrying Helene. He was attracted to her, but also apparently scared of her (or sex), and then her father basically announces they are engaged. Helene and her father blatantly used Pierre for his money and title. Her father is more blameworthy, but Helene went along with it, and she is not discreet in her affairs and openly disdains Pierre. She's not required to love him, or have kids with him, but he doesn't deserve the way she treats him.

Natasha eventually feels bad about how she treated Andrei. Helene and Anatole don't feel guilt or change their ways.

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In the book, Prince K's wife was a niece or some other relation of Count's and she was the one eligible to inherit something if the state would be divided amongst the female relatives. 

 

Thanks, I never picked up on that.  I think at that point of the book I was still trying to keep all the names straight and surely missed some of the nuance.

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I'm actually enjoying this and it makes me want to read War and Peace I've just always feared the size. 

That's a bog-standard trope for adaptations like this.  Them speaking English with Russian accents isn't, strictly speaking, any more authentic anyway, so it doesn't bother me on that level.

This is where I come down on it. I think it would be even more silly to speak English with Russian accents. If they're using Russian accents because they're Russian then why would they be speaking English with each other in every scene? If it can't be in French or Russian then I'm fine with British accents being the standard. 

 

I will also shamelessly admit that I prefer British accents to American ones anyway (I'm American btw) so I don't want them going anywhere when it comes to period pieces like this. (I remember some people being all pissed off that Game of Thrones didn't go for American accents and I'm *so* glad the showrunners made that call. I felt the same with The Borgias, Rome, I, Claudius, etc.) 

 

That being said, I'd like the day to come when subtitles aren't looked upon as a chore by mainstream audiences. 

 

At the time, it was said that most of the Russian nobility spoke only French and did not know their own country's language of Russian or "the peasant language".

 

 

Yeah, I think French was the chosen language spoken at many courts.

 

This reminds me of a line in the movie Nicholas and Alexandra where one of the characters says something about how the Russian princesses are performing an English play in French for a group of visiting Polish nobles.  

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I thought that was a really nice ending, even though it was REALLY rushed in the last part. 

 

I do have to laugh at how all the main characters just keep happening to run into each other. They're traveling through the Forest of Coincidence! 

 

Yeah it was definitely cliffs notes War and Peace, but I think they did get a lot of the scope of drama in there, helped a lot by the amazing scenery and cinematography. I really enjoyed this. 

 

I even got used to the British accents! 

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The climax was remarkably life affirming, including the virtue of forgiveness. It was all the more jarring for me when the sexual sins of Helene and Anatole were so unforgivingly inflicted upon them   Anatole's amputation, like most literary or dramatic amputations, is symbolic of castration. But inevitably it is the woman who faces the bloodiest retribution of all. 

 

I did sort of wish Gillian Anderson's and Stephen Rea's characters faced some sort of retribution, if only an epiphany of their awfulness.

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