Season 5 (A & B) Discussion

[ghoulina]

Jesse was definitely smarter than people gave him credit for. Walt wasn't the only one who could think on his feet and come up with clever solutions to their problems. Jesse proved that with the train heist and laptop destruction. I think that Walt was better able to separate from his emotions, whereas Jesse had a harder time with that, so Jesse wasn't able to showcase his intelligence as much. I'm not saying he was Walt level smart, but he was a smart kid who went down a bad path. 

[possibilities]

Jesse also grew more conscience over time, while Walt grew less.

[toodles]

On 9/12/2017 at 9:42 AM, Absurda said:

Walt actually didn't end up having to deal with these folks.  He went to them on purpose after he killed Mike to take care of the legacies.  He went back to them again to kill Jesse.  He was working with the guy out of Arizona to cook for him.  He didn't end up with the Nazi's, he sought them out.  I don't think he ever would have tried to build distribution or infrastructure after killing Gus.  He was never about doing that end of the business himself but always looked for a partner to do it.

I think you guys have talked me around on the Nazis as worthwhile villains. Just as vicious and violent as Tuco but not as insane.  

I didn't necessarily want Walt in prison, I don't think he would have made it with his cancer.  The destruction of his family and them hating him is punishment, I just wanted him to have to make an accounting of the things he's done.  Admit it all and come to realize the damage he's done beyond just his family.  Dirt Bike Boy's parents deserve that, Mike's granddaughter deserves that, Hank, Gomez (posthumously) and Marie deserve that.  But, I agree, this rarely happens in real life and sometimes people just never know what happened.

Yeah, I know.  He's got no money, likely no ability to contact the vacuum guy even if he did have money, Saul is gone and he has a lot of trauma.  He's going to have a tough time.  I just don't want things to end badly for Jesse.  In my mind he goes back to his house (he should still own the house, I hope) hooks up with Badger and Skinny Pete (who are still clean and working the program), they help him get back on his feet, get a legit job and build a life.  Eventually he reconciles with his family.  He shouldn't have legal trouble because the only one watching him was Hank.  The DEA likely doesn't have much on him and wouldn't be looking at him any more.  At least, that's what I have in my mind but it would be a very un-Breaking Bad ending for a character!  No one gets a happy ending.

I should also mention how much I loved Jesse in the world's most awkward dinner with Skylar and Walt. 

I think the world's most awkward dinner was the one at the Mexican restaurant where Walt and Skylar gave Hank and Marie the nasty CD.  YMMV

[ketose]

6 hours ago, piequinn35 said:

Walt is a genius coz he made a recipe for meth that turned out to be 99.1% pure, and Jesse is smart, being a not trained chemist, he made a 96.2% pure meth.

Something that is 100% "pure" in this case means you end up with the same amount of everything that you started with. When you have less than 100% meth, it's because of impurities. It's not a matter of recipe, it's a matter of solid manufacturing processes. Otherwise, we have to go on the premise that Walt created some kind of magic meth that was not reproducible. Given the fact that the show took place over less than 2 years, I can believe that Gus an the Cartel hadn't gotten around to copying Walt, due to his extreme luck and the fact that a drug war was erupting between Gus and the Don.

[ByTor]

14 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Jesse was definitely smarter than people gave him credit for. Walt wasn't the only one who could think on his feet and come up with clever solutions to their problems. Jesse proved that with the train heist and laptop destruction. I think that Walt was better able to separate from his emotions, whereas Jesse had a harder time with that, so Jesse wasn't able to showcase his intelligence as much. I'm not saying he was Walt level smart, but he was a smart kid who went down a bad path. 

In comparing Jesse & Walt, I personally think it's the classic Walt being more book smart with Jesse being more street smart. 

13 hours ago, toodles said:

I think the world's most awkward dinner was the one at the Mexican restaurant where Walt and Skylar gave Hank and Marie the nasty CD.  YMMV

Oh, that poor waiter trying to get them to order the guacamole....they make it at the tableside, you know! :)

Edited September 22, 2017 by ByTor

[Chaos Theory]

On 2/15/2017 at 5:24 PM, ghoulina said:

No way. This is one of the few shows that was practically perfect from start to end. It was not a slave to the ratings, dragging shit out when it was long past its prime. It seemed, to me, that the showrunners had a clear start-to-finish concept in mind from day one and they followed through. I really have no complaints about the way this show as done. None. 

I agree this is one of the few shows where it was close to perfect from start to finish.  Maybe there are a few things I might have tweaked myself.  I still don't understand why the show wrote Skylar as so unlikable or was that an unintended consiquence of something they thought might have been funny in the pilot.  A very pregnant wife not having sex with her husband and people just got really offended by it.  Like if a wife doesn't have sex with her husband on his birthday it is somehow grounds for divorce.    Then again sex is a good way to show a power dynamic on tv.    And yes she controlled the household but it was always and remained unclear as to the circumstances that she came to that control.   From that one flashback scene I seem to recall seeing but could never find again Walt promised to take care of her and give her everything she wanted when he became rich and famous.   That never happened.  Add to that having a special needs son.     I always assumed Walt just through in the towel and left Skylar to pick up the pieces and well.....the pilot happened.

 

Jesse was definitely smarter than people gave him credit for. Walt wasn't the only one who could think on his feet and come up with clever solutions to their problems. Jesse proved that with the train heist and laptop destruction. I think that Walt was better able to separate from his emotions, whereas Jesse had a harder time with that, so Jesse wasn't able to showcase his intelligence as much. I'm not saying he was Walt level smart, but he was a smart kid who went down a bad path. 

Jesse was clever.   He could think on his feet and read a room.  Walt never could.     Jesse also picked things up quickly if they interested him.   

Unpopular opinion:  I liked early Jesse alot more then late series Jesse.  By the time the show ended I was kinda hoping he'd get killed off but he was the heart and soul of the show so I knew he wouldn't be unless the show wanted to get really really dark.  

[ghoulina]

13 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I agree this is one of the few shows where it was close to perfect from start to finish.  Maybe there are a few things I might have tweaked myself.  I still don't understand why the show wrote Skylar as so unlikable or was that an unintended consiquence of something they thought might have been funny in the pilot.  A very pregnant wife not having sex with her husband and people just got really offended by it.  Like if a wife doesn't have sex with her husband on his birthday it is somehow grounds for divorce.    Then again sex is a good way to show a power dynamic on tv.  

I still can't figure out why Skylar is so hated. I didn't LOVE her, but I empathized with her a lot. Walt started lying to her almost from the start of the show, and I'd be bitchy as hell if I knew my husband was keeping things from me. 

But the sex thing - I got that. It wasn't about her not giving it up. I remember being hugely pregnant and not having much interest. It was the way she decided to give him a hand job, but barely pay attention to it. She's on freaking Ebay at the same time!!! What kind of message does that send your husband? I know, it was a funny moment. But it did make her look pretty self-involved and disinterested. 

[ByTor]

6 hours ago, ghoulina said:

But the sex thing - I got that. It wasn't about her not giving it up. I remember being hugely pregnant and not having much interest. It was the way she decided to give him a hand job, but barely pay attention to it. She's on freaking Ebay at the same time!!! What kind of message does that send your husband? I know, it was a funny moment. But it did make her look pretty self-involved and disinterested. 

Exactly.  I would have respected her more if she just said "no" and did nothing.

19 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Unpopular opinion:  I liked early Jesse alot more then late series Jesse.

The 1st time I watched the series, I warmed up to Jesse and really liked him late in the series.  Upon subsequent viewings, I'm totally with you, Jesse worked my nerves more & more the longer he was on.

19 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

 I still don't understand why the show wrote Skylar as so unlikable or was that an unintended consiquence of something they thought might have been funny in the pilot.

I think it was twofold: 1) so we can see Walt as a nagged underling in order to understand how he came to love the power he had as a meth kingpin that he did not have at home, and 2) to make Walt more sympathetic.  IMO they are the same reasons why Walt was also shown being treated like crap by Bogdan & as having not a whole hell of a lot of respect from his students

Edited December 13, 2017 by ByTor

[Uncle JUICE]

6 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I still can't figure out why Skylar is so hated. I didn't LOVE her, but I empathized with her a lot. Walt started lying to her almost from the start of the show, and I'd be bitchy as hell if I knew my husband was keeping things from me. 

But the sex thing - I got that. It wasn't about her not giving it up. I remember being hugely pregnant and not having much interest. It was the way she decided to give him a hand job, but barely pay attention to it. She's on freaking Ebay at the same time!!! What kind of message does that send your husband? I know, it was a funny moment. But it did make her look pretty self-involved and disinterested. 

26 minutes ago, ByTor said:

I think it was twofold: 1) so we can see Walt as a nagged underling in order to understand how he came to love the power he had as a meth kingpin that he did not have at home, and 2) to make Walt more sympathetic.  IMO they are the same reasons why Walt was also shown being treated like crap by Bogdan & as having not a whole hell of a lot of respect from his students

I have come to the conclusion that they weren't trying too hard to make Skyler unlikable / Walt sympathetic, rather they were trying to demonstrate the soul-crushingly mundane life this guy was leading before he got his diagnosis. Granted, the ebay / tuggy thing isn't a very good start for a character, but it's not like TV shows haven't figured out how to write women as shrews. There's hundreds of other ways on the spectrum to write her as unlikable for the viewer, this one just seems like clumsy comedy writing. Like someone thought it would be funny to time her manipulation with the ending of an auction, it's just not as funny as it comes off. And probably the least 'organic' moment in the series. 

[ByTor]

5 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I have come to the conclusion that they weren't trying too hard to make Skyler unlikable / Walt sympathetic, rather they were trying to demonstrate the soul-crushingly mundane life this guy was leading before he got his diagnosis.

This also.  High school teacher with a 2nd job at a car wash to get by financially.  Hank was also pretty condescending toward Walt & his boring life when he took Walt on that ride-along.

[Chaos Theory]

I get the initial dislike of Skylar.  What gets me is the series long hatred of her like that made her deserve everything Walt did to her.  That made no sense to me.  She was a bitch. No doubt.  Walt was a narcissistic psychopath.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Nozycat]

10 hours ago, ghoulina said:

But the sex thing - I got that. It wasn't about her not giving it up. I remember being hugely pregnant and not having much interest. It was the way she decided to give him a hand job, but barely pay attention to it. She's on freaking Ebay at the same time!!! What kind of message does that send your husband? I know, it was a funny moment. But it did make her look pretty self-involved and disinterested. 

Yes exactly, imo she showed how little she really cared while acting like she was doing him this huge favour.  And I didn't think it was funny at all but insulting towards Walt.

[Chaos Theory]

20 hours ago, Nozycat said:

Yes exactly, imo she showed how little she really cared while acting like she was doing him this huge favour.  And I didn't think it was funny at all but insulting towards Walt.

But that was also the pilot and people seem to allow character growth for every other character except Skylar.  Skylar people point to a single act she committed in the pilot.  If I said I hated Marie and Hank because they were assholes to Walt in the pilot you would probably question my viewing habits.  Marie and Hank and awesome character growth throughout the series but they were assholes.in the pilot and through much of season 1 and yet they are both favored characters.  Skylar was an ass to her husband but then had some pretty good character growth through the series herself yet people refuse to acknowledge it.  

[Uncle JUICE]

55 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

But that was also the pilot and people seem to allow character growth for every other character except Skylar.  Skylar people point to a single act she committed in the pilot.  If I said I hated Marie and Hank because they were assholes to Walt in the pilot you would probably question my viewing habits.  Marie and Hank and awesome character growth throughout the series but they were assholes.in the pilot and through much of season 1 and yet they are both favored characters.  Skylar was an ass to her husband but then had some pretty good character growth through the series herself yet people refuse to acknowledge it.  

Totally true. No one ever brings up her decision at Four Corners, or her scene with paralyzed Ted. That's not the same person from the pilot.

[ByTor]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

Skylar was an ass to her husband but then had some pretty good character growth through the series herself yet people refuse to acknowledge it.  

What growth would you say she had, though?  I'm not being sarcastic, I'd like to know what you saw as growth & perhaps I'd agree, but from my perspective she regressed more than anything.  She refused to out Walt's meth business when she was trying to get a divorce...yeah, she claimed it was for Jr's sake, but I think it was more over the embarrassment she'd face from people asking "How could you not have known?", because we all know Skylar always has to be the smartest person in the room.  When she couldn't deal with Walt, she used Ted.  Then, finally, she goes ahead and involves herself in the car wash & money laundering scheme.  Unlike Walt, at least she never murdered anybody, but I don't think either of them were characters who grew as the series went on, nor do I think either of them are good people (just because Walt was much worse, that doesn't automatically make Skylar good.)

5 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Totally true. No one ever brings up her decision at Four Corners, or her scene with paralyzed Ted. That's not the same person from the pilot.

But is that something you'd call growth?

The fact is, she's just a character I never liked (well, someone I personally wouldn't like as a person, as a tv character she was someone I was very interested in & cared about what happened to her, good or bad).

Edited December 14, 2017 by ByTor

[Chaos Theory]

27 minutes ago, ByTor said:

What growth would you say she had, though?  I'm not being sarcastic, I'd like to know what you saw as growth & perhaps I'd agree, but from my perspective she regressed more than anything.  She refused to out Walt's meth business when she was trying to get a divorce...yeah, she claimed it was for Jr's sake, but I think it was more over the embarrassment she'd face from people asking "How could you not have known?", because we all know Skylar always has to be the smartest person in the room.  When she couldn't deal with Walt, she used Ted.  Then, finally, she goes ahead and involves herself in the car wash & money laundering scheme.  Unlike Walt, at least she never murdered anybody, but I don't think either of them were characters who grew as the series went on, nor do I think either of them are good people (just because Walt was much worse, that doesn't automatically make Skylar good.)

But is that something you'd call growth?

The fact is, she's just a character I never liked (well, someone I personally wouldn't like as a person, as a tv character she was someone I was very interested in & cared about what happened to her, good or bad).

If you don't like a character you will turn everything they do into something horrible.  Everything you said is the reason why I do like her.   We can go round and round with all the reasons why Skylar is the most awful person on the show and Walt and Jesse are awesome.  But honestly I think Jesse is probably the worst character on the show and the longer he was on the show the more I wished the show would kill him off.  While I never understood the vitriol for Skylar and found her to be at times more fascinating then even Walt.  

[ByTor]

26 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

We can go round and round with all the reasons why Skylar is the most awful person on the show and Walt and Jesse are awesome.  But honestly I think Jesse is probably the worst character on the show and the longer he was on the show the more I wished the show would kill him off

Just because people think Skylar was awful doesn't mean they also think Walt/Jesse were wonderful.  Again, I think Skylar and Walt were both awful, Walt being much more awful (murderer trumps anything Skylar did).  I totally agree about Jesse, I couldn't stand him, especially at the end.  I didn't hope for him to have some great life in Alaska, I really didn't care what happened to him.

 

26 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

If you don't like a character you will turn everything they do into something horrible

Much like if you like a character, people will turn everything they do into something laudable.

Edited December 14, 2017 by ByTor

[Chaos Theory]

23 minutes ago, ByTor said:

Much like if you like a character, people will turn everything they do into something laudable.

Laudable no.  Fascinating yes.  

[ByTor]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

1 hour ago, ByTor said:

Much like if you like a character, people will turn everything they do into something laudable.

Laudable no.  Fascinating yes.

I don't disagree.  But I do disagree that fascinating = growth.