stillshimpy January 28, 2016 Share January 28, 2016 (edited) ..But, but, Julia IS just as whiny as Quentin, and she's just as selfish--more so, actually. At least, Quentin gives some thought to Julia(clumsy phone call! Ha!) albeit in a whiny, snuffling, 'come pity me' manner. Whereas, Julia couldn't give two and one-half shits about Quentin thus far. Quentin is a weepy, tired dumbass, depressed whiner who had a breakdown. And, Julia is an angry, tunnel-visioned dumbass, angrIER whiner in the midst of a possible breakdown. Those two are distinctly enervating. Yes. This exactly. Quentin is a total clownshoe, the mopey depressed boy who gets off on being mopey and depressed. That jackass on Facebook who is still bemoaning having not received his/her letter to Hogwarts, but not in the fun and playfull Buzzfeed quiz way, in the legitimately "I WAS SUPPOSED TO BE SPECIAL" kind of way when in fact he's just smarter than the average bear by a degree or two and has yet to embrace his own weirdness. The juxtaposition between Julia and Alice is an interesting one. Both are clearly smart, smarter than their classmates. But while Julia is just a straight up angry and (dare I say it, without pissing off the Millennials) entitled. Her whole "Why wouldn't they want me? I'm smart and I QUESTION EVERYTHING!!!1!" schtick is grating. Alice, on the other hand, is demonstrably smart (if a little lacking in judgment) but brittle instead of angry. She's clearly still mourning her brother and his death has turned her icy and mistrustful. I've read the books and after the first one, they are just so much fun, but that aside. Calling Quentin whiney doesn't fit to my mind. He's been clinically depressed and the show made a point of underlining that. I like Quentin, he's an acquired taste even in the books, but here's the comparison that I made to a friend in discussing the books: I think Quentin's case he just gets under people's skin because he tends to remind people of the worst traits in themselves and those around them. How can someone be less than thrilled when they discover that the world of magic is at their finger tips? Anything can be called up on a whim and it's a world of never-ending delight? I don't know: I look at our world, with our amazing technology, a world of varied and diverse cuisine, state parks. technology that would have sounded like actual magic had someone described it to me as a child -- I'd have guffawed over all the things a smart phone can do (take movies, pictures, give you directions, act as a scanner, access unlimited resources in terms of knowledge....it would sound like a fucking pocket wizard)....and that list will go on and on and on and on. Yet most of us find some way to be unhappy with our lot in life, no matter how spectacular this world of privilege and opportunity affords. I think Quentin irks people because he's us. A guy given everything and it still isn't enough. As for Julia, yeah, imagine being her just for a moment: You find out magic is real. Every fairy story you told yourself as a child, every make-believe you could conjure was there, out there, waiting for you. My god, it's like Life Powerball, imagine the possibilities!! But you can't have it. This world-bending, reality changing thing, every dream, every possibility you ever wanted is real...but you've been rejected from it. It's not entitled to take that as a soul-crushing blow. The keys to the Kingdom, Dude, but you've been judged and found wanting, and why? For every trait that has made you successful in this now too mundane and ordinary world.. For real, when I try to imagine finding out that every ounce of hard work I'd ever put in to have a successful and happy life was to achieve something as dull dishwater in comparison and so, so much worse, that I had my chance to get in there and blew it for having a mind that was too logical? I think I might jump off a fucking building and I don't whine much in life, but my ass would be whittled to being nonexistent because I would WHINE MY ASS OFF trying to get back to that moment. Trying to find my way into that world that had offered me refuge as a child. I also fully suspect I am so far from alone in that one. I'm just willing to fly that flag from my personal mast. I got a laugh out of Penny being turned into a guy of almost god-like beauty. That was awesome and yet it's still the same character in some regards. Alice is...oh man. I'm displeased with the characterization so far. Alice was stealth awesome, not a Tracy Flick redo and please, commit to wardrobe choices on her. It's fine to have her in child-like Peter Pan collars, but combined with hoof-like high heels and short hems just made it seem like she was playing the sexy librarian character in a porn flick, waiting for the pizza delivery guy. But I'm in, I love it so far. Loved the Fillory stuff, and ADORED seeing darling Ros from Game of Thrones to boot! Edited January 28, 2016 by stillshimpy 19 Link to comment
Tara Ariano January 28, 2016 Share January 28, 2016 In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode! Should You Give In To The Prestige Of The Magicians?Syfy's newest series asks: what if everyone at Hogwarts were old enough to have sex and get high? 1 Link to comment
Lion January 28, 2016 Share January 28, 2016 My sympathy was strongly with julie. I had a hard time really processing her arc because it was so upsetting. I don't have any familiarity with the source material so I don't know whether or not they simply used shock value to hook viewers or if this is true to the books. She was taken to a test without full consent, then had her mind altered without consent. Then the sexual assault, then being locked in the freezer as a "test". I hope it's not just simply all brushed away and shrugged off as no big deal. It was distressing to watch. I'm secretly hoping Julie turns out to be the hero, not Quentin. 6 Link to comment
Izeinwinter January 28, 2016 Share January 28, 2016 Q is depressive. I nearly yelled at my screen when the dean told him they hoped he wouldn't need his meds. That is not how neurochemistry works, ffs. If his point had been that they had better, magical ways to treat his dysfunction, that would be one thing, but he isn't miserable because of the circumstances of his life, the guy is a walking pile of privilege, after all, he's miserable because his brain is broken. That's a real problem, and it needs actual fixing, not just ignoring because the school is just that awesome or whatever. He is indeed very hard to like, but depression does that. 7 Link to comment
JTMacc99 January 28, 2016 Share January 28, 2016 I've read the books and after the first one, they are just so much fun, but that aside. I like your take on the characters and what they are probably feeling. It's hard for the TV show to really paint such a rich picture of them while also setting the scene for us in just the first couple episodes. I think in time I'll be on board with what is really going on with each of them, but it will probably take a few episodes or more depending on how it's done. I got Quentin pretty much within the first half hour, but I don't yet have a handle on Julia. I'm sticking with it though. The fact that there is quality source material behind this gives me a good feeling. He is indeed very hard to like, but depression does that. Yep. 1 Link to comment
iMonrey January 28, 2016 Share January 28, 2016 Calling Quentin whiney doesn't fit to my mind. He's been clinically depressed and the show made a point of underlining that. I like Quentin, he's an acquired taste even in the books, but here's the comparison that I made to a friend in discussing the books: I think Quentin's case he just gets under people's skin because he tends to remind people of the worst traits in themselves and those around them. That's still no excuse for that hair. 4 Link to comment
gibasi January 29, 2016 Share January 29, 2016 I could not stand Quentin or maybe it was Jason Ralph I could not stand. Okay, I could not stand either of them. I did not care for any of the school stuff. I like the character of Julia better but I really don't like the way television shows find it so easy to use near rape to move their stories along. Arjun Gupta is gorgeous. If I watch again it will be for him. I didn't like it much at all. But kudos for SyFy rebranding themselves. Everything they are doing lately is better than where they've been these past post Farscape years. Even if The Magicians is not for me I like that SyFy is airing it. Link to comment
vendredi3 January 29, 2016 Share January 29, 2016 I want to like this show, but every time I look at Quentin I just see Dawson Leery. It doesn't help. 3 Link to comment
Anela January 29, 2016 Share January 29, 2016 Wait, I must have watched the second episode first, somehow. It started with the classroom, and their fighting someone off. This is what I get for using the Syfy app. Link to comment
Lemur January 29, 2016 Share January 29, 2016 Yet most of us find some way to be unhappy with our lot in life, no matter how spectacular this world of privilege and opportunity affords. I think Quentin irks people because he's us. A guy given everything and it still isn't enough. See, I totally get that. I remember what I was like at 22/23. And I was a whiny snot-nosed jerk because I had done everything right and I still wan't happy. Sound familiar? Yeah, and people told me to stop whining. So stop whining, Quentin. (That aside, I get that he's clinically depressed. And yes, it can make people very unlikable. I personally felt that whole scene was a little too on-the-nose.) It's not entitled to take that as a soul-crushing blow. The keys to the Kingdom, Dude, but you've been judged and found wanting, and why? For every trait that has made you successful in this now too mundane and ordinary world. Because, she didn't *believe*. See, that's the difference between her and Quentin. Quentin bought in hook, line and sinker from the minute he came though the hedge and passed. Julia was a skeptic until she found the spell online and managed to do it; she spent the exam period not so much questioning but refusing to buy in. She couldn't pass the exam because it was a Shibboleth and she couldn't say the word. It wasn't until after she found it was real that bought in and by then it was too late. Also, she wouldn't have known she'd had the keys to the kingdom, so to speak, in her hand if she hadn't cut herself. (Also, I really hated how this scene was presented and thought a more organic and less self-harmy way of portraying this would have been a better choice.) 5 Link to comment
Lion January 29, 2016 Share January 29, 2016 *smacks head* I feel so dumb because I missed the entire point of Julia's arc. That had totally gone right over my head. Thanks for filling me in, Lemur! I think I'm even more on Julia's side now that I realize that she's the skeptic. It actually starts to paint a sinister cloud over the school and the staff because demanding blind faith is generally not exactly a positive quality. 2 Link to comment
Lemur January 29, 2016 Share January 29, 2016 I think I'm even more on Julia's side now that I realize that she's the skeptic. It actually starts to paint a sinister cloud over the school and the staff because demanding blind faith is generally not exactly a positive quality. I wouldn't say that it has anything to do with the school. Recall, if you will, her conversations with Quentin regarding Fillory. She was pressuring him to sell his first additions and then when he got the sixth book after the non-interview, she basically told him to put the fantasy shit aside and grow up. Then what happens? They end up at a place with a seemingly different climatic zone, at a large country house, seemingly by magic. Fanboy Quentin ate it up, skeptical Julia found the whole thing beyond bizarre. 1 Link to comment
Lion January 29, 2016 Share January 29, 2016 I think this calls for a rewatch. I was thoroughly unenthused with the pilot, but I think it's clear I missed quite a bit. Link to comment
Canada January 29, 2016 Share January 29, 2016 I feel like there a lot of little details which I've missed by not reading the books. Stuff that would have helped me enjoy this more and actually understand what was going on. I'll give it a couple more episodes, see if it gets better. And... is Hiro Kanagawa just in everything???? I feel like at least 50% of the shows I watch, he turns up! 1 Link to comment
stillshimpy January 30, 2016 Share January 30, 2016 (edited) Because, she didn't *believe*. See, that's the difference between her and Quentin. Quentin bought in hook, line and sinker from the minute he came though the hedge and passed. Julia was a skeptic until she found the spell online and managed to do it; she spent the exam period not so much questioning but refusing to buy in. She couldn't pass the exam because it was a Shibboleth and she couldn't say the word. It wasn't until after she found it was real that bought in and by then it was too late. Also, she wouldn't have known she'd had the keys to the kingdom, so to speak, in her hand if she hadn't cut herself. (Also, I really hated how this scene was presented and thought a more organic and less self-harmy way of portraying this would have been a better choice.) That isn't quite what happened though. Contrast what happened to Quentin and to Julia: He has someone give him this "Wait, don't forget this!" packet and there's someone waiting for him with his name on a card. He gets to interact with someone and is TOLD where he is at that moment. What happens to Julia is she gets on an elevator and exits into what seems a hallucination. Rather than freaking out at any turn, she follows signs, sits down in the fucked weird reality and attempts to take the test and the first person she interacts with is Quentin who has had it explained to him where he is and what is going on, before he sits down. Julia was flying by the seat of her pants. It has nothing to do with refusing to believe. It's that she tried to have the test make sense because her reality has already stood on its ear and she didn't have a helpful guide waiting for her. She doesn't have any problems believing, at all. She just didn't understand the approach she was meant to take. She begs the professor for another chance. She believes and leaves that scar on herself so that cannot magically wipe her mind. She believes so much that she CONTINUES SEARCHING through countless bullshit spells until she finds one that works. She fucking believes, and won't give up until she finds one that works...and then waits for the only other person she knows she saw there to ask him for help. Also she tells Quentin to sell his first editions because he's been in a mental hospital and has retreated from a party to interact with the books. She's not rejected for failure to believe, she's rejected because she can't make sense of the test and desperately wants to try again. When she's told they'll take her memory away, she believes that so much that she maims herself to make sure that won't even work. Girlfriend believes. In her case it's not comparable to being the snot-nosed kid who is just determined to be miserable, it would be like my telling a 22-year-old "You get to go back to 1974 now! Don't worry! You'll like it! Oh sure, it will be a good five years before the VCR is invented and PCs are well in the offing. Also you'll get used to using Encyclopedias instead of googling everything. Facetime? You'll never miss it. Or cell phones, or smart TVs or Netflix or anything. There are three channels and a slew of variety shows, you'll be happy! Hold still while I hit you over the head with this time machine. Mmmm, kay?" And you are stuck in 1974, knowing that 2016 is out there. Edited January 30, 2016 by stillshimpy 14 Link to comment
grandemocha January 30, 2016 Share January 30, 2016 That isn't quite what happened though. I think Lemur is referencing what happened in the book and you are focusing on the show, no? Apologies if I am wrong! Link to comment
wayne67 January 30, 2016 Share January 30, 2016 I'd like Quentin more if he had a single moment where he was like fuck yeah magic is real reaction. While I understand that he's depressed and knowing magic was real wouldn't magically fix all his problems instantly it'd still be nice to have even a moment of light hearted woohoo magic powers demonstration. Oh well. As for Julia she seems to be joining the dark side because the rich magical kids didn't like her. So far I'm not liking her all that much. I'm not sure I like anyone that much. Except maybe Elliot. He seems to be more amusing second episode. Probably helped that he revealed his backstory and it was delivered with such pathos and whimsy. I think I'll watch another episode and see how I feel. So far I'm not sold. 3 Link to comment
AnnaMayWong January 30, 2016 Share January 30, 2016 (edited) That isn't quite what happened though. Contrast what happened to Quentin and to Julia: He has someone give him this "Wait, don't forget this!" packet and there's someone waiting for him with his name on a card. He gets to interact with someone and is TOLD where he is at that moment. What happens to Julia is she gets on an elevator and exits into what seems a hallucination. Rather than freaking out at any turn, she follows signs, sits down in the fucked weird reality and attempts to take the test and the first person she interacts with is Quentin who has had it explained to him where he is and what is going on, before he sits down. Julia was flying by the seat of her pants. It has nothing to do with refusing to believe. It's that she tried to have the test make sense because her reality has already stood on its ear and she didn't have a helpful guide waiting for her. She doesn't have any problems believing, at all. She just didn't understand the approach she was meant to take. She begs the professor for another chance. She believes and leaves that scar on herself so that cannot magically wipe her mind. She believes so much that she CONTINUES SEARCHING through countless bullshit spells until she finds one that works. She fucking believes, and won't give up until she finds one that works...and then waits for the only other person she knows she saw there to ask him for help. Also she tells Quentin to sell his first editions because he's been in a mental hospital and has retreated from a party to interact with the books. She's not rejected for failure to believe, she's rejected because she can't make sense of the test and desperately wants to try again. When she's told they'll take her memory away, she believes that so much that she maims herself to make sure that won't even work. Girlfriend believes. In her case it's not comparable to being the snot-nosed kid who is just determined to be miserable, it would be like my telling a 22-year-old "You get to go back to 1974 now! Don't worry! You'll like it! Oh sure, it will be a good five years before the VCR is invented and PCs are well in the offing. Also you'll get used to using Encyclopedias instead of googling everything. Facetime? You'll never miss it. Or cell phones, or smart TVs or Netflix or anything. There are three channels and a slew of variety shows, you'll be happy! Hold still while I hit you over the head with this time machine. Mmmm, kay?" And you are stuck in 1974, knowing that 2016 is out there. I agree that Julia was essentially dazed and appropriately confused upon her arrival at the school and subsequent testing. I mean, really, who knew? Magic? Well, seemingly all but Julia either knew ALL about magic, the school,..or, at least, received a heads-up 'packet' of 'new employee' information. Julia did not. The afore-knowledge is monumental. For instance, in the real world, if someone with no knowledge of law, medicine, business was suddenly told one afternoon that in just a few minutes that they would be sitting for the LSAT, GMAT,... I think stunned and confused would be be apt descriptions. Now, imagine if someone was rather abruptly informed that they were commencing to take a test 'on magic' without experiencing any type of introduction, warning,...that magic even exists. Confusion and disorientation would be the primary responses to say the least. Yeah, BELIEF would be certainly suspended. However, she is still irritating--to this point. Hey, she may not have been accepted at this Ivy League school, but she IS learning some magic. Right? Oh, and, many people do NOT whine and gripe about their lives but are grateful despite the luxuries of technology,... Quentin always 'felt' different. Fine. So do a lot of people. Quentin read the 'fictional tales' and sorta wished upon a star for them to be true. Fine. They are true. Now, buck up and get on with it. Suffering from Depression(mild, clinical,...) is horrible just as are many mental, emotional, physical afflictions. However, we are watching a T.V. SHOW about... We are not reading The Books. Time is not allotted to travel down certain avenues. It just isn't. So, now, let's get on with The Show. * I have not read The Books, do not wish to do so, nor should I need to do so. The creative team for this T.V. SHOW simply needs to do their jobs for the T.V.SHOW.* Edited January 30, 2016 by BookElitist 2 Link to comment
wayne67 January 30, 2016 Share January 30, 2016 (edited) Does it really matter why Julia failed the test? As I've never read the books, I just assumed she failed it because she didn't meet whatever criteria they have for admitting students. Since they appear to have a 90% mortality rate for students I'm not sure that failing to get in is such a tragic outcome. I'm not sure why she can't just do magic on her own? Why does she need some organisation to validate her existence? She already has magic and if Quentin survives his first year he might be able to teach her some magic on the side. It's not like anyone is telling her not to use magic. So I'm not clear on why she feels so hard done by. She got rejected from a school she didn't even apply to ... What a horror. Edited January 30, 2016 by wayne67 6 Link to comment
Happytobehere January 30, 2016 Share January 30, 2016 (edited) Does it really matter why Julia failed the test? As I've never read the books, I just assumed she failed it because she didn't meet whatever criteria they have for admitting students. Since they appear to have a 90% mortality rate for students I'm not sure that failing to get in is such a tragic outcome. I'm not sure why she can't just do magic on her own? Why does she need some organisation to validate her existence? She already has magic and if Quentin survives his first year he might be able to teach her some magic on the side. It's not like anyone is telling her not to use magic. So I'm not clear on why she feels so hard done by. She got rejected from a school she didn't even apply to ... What a horror. Since I haven't read the books, I'm just going by what I have seen thus far. I think the point is to set up Julia's sense of entitlement. As Quentin stated, she's the type who always excels and gets what she wants. The fact that she was reject by a group whose acceptance would make her extraordinary is more than her puffed up ego can take. I'm inferring that this will be the rationale used to justify her aligning herself with people who at best are clearly not well-intentioned, and at worst are outright evil and capable of anything to get what they want. I'm giving this my usual three episode try (maybe four since episodes 1 & 2 were bookended). I can at least say that I like what I saw better than Colony (which I found to be dull and pointless, and as a result, I have already chucked it from my DVR). I do however dislike the blinding and de-handing of the headmaster/president/chancellor? of the school since I really like that actor in things I have seen him in (currently blanking in his name) and I don't know how much longer he will be a viable cast member given his current deficiencies. Edited January 30, 2016 by Happytobehere 1 Link to comment
ParadoxLost January 31, 2016 Share January 31, 2016 I do however dislike the blinding and de-handing of the headmaster/president/chancellor? of the school since I really like that actor in things I have seen him in (currently blanking in his name) and I don't know how much longer he will be a viable cast member given his current deficiencies. I imagine they will magic just enough recovery to keep him a viable cast member and teacher but weak enough that it makes sense that the students must defeat the Beast rather than the Dean. So I don't know whether it was supposed to be clear or unclear. But should Quentin be staying on the garden path or getting the heck off it? Penny seems to think that the voice he hears was the Beast. Given that the voice led to helping release moth man, that seems like a reasonable guess. But that leads to thinking that Fillory girl is also an agent or manifestation of the Beast since the symbol led to the spell. Which also makes the woman that gave Quentin a probation and warning about staying on the garden path a suspected agent of the Beast if Fillory girl is. 1 Link to comment
benteen January 31, 2016 Share January 31, 2016 I enjoyed it, more the first episode than the second one. I'm definitely intrigued and will continue watching more. The actress playing Julia reminded me so much of Chloe Bennett in both appearance and voice. Her adventures in Shitty Hogwarts should make for an interesting storyline. Recognized a number of actresses in this show. Link to comment
WildPlum January 31, 2016 Share January 31, 2016 Since I haven't read the books, I'm just going by what I have seen thus far. I think the point is to set up Julia's sense of entitlement. As Quentin stated, she's the type who always excels and gets what she wants. The fact that she was reject by a group whose acceptance would make her extraordinary is more than her puffed up ego can take. I'm inferring that this will be the rationale used to justify her aligning herself with people who at best are clearly not well-intentioned, and at worst are outright evil and capable of anything to get what they want. Given the heavy-handed foreshadowing we have seen in the Dean and the Sweeper or whatever she was called agonizing over the "they aren't ready!" thing, which pretty much implies that they are going to pitch the students head-first into a horrible confrontation that the "adults" are sure they are going to lose and Fillory-girl deliberately branding Quentin's hand with the thing that directly results in him helping to summon the Beast (after she warns Quentin not to walk the garden path or The Beast will get him), I'm not sure that there IS a "well-intentioned" side. Everyone seems to have their own agendas. The last time I watched this channel it was still SciFi and I think MST3K was still in repeats, at least on Thanksgiving. At least this show seems to have set budgets and a bit of special effects budgets, which is good. Link to comment
stillshimpy February 1, 2016 Share February 1, 2016 (edited) I think Lemur is referencing what happened in the book and you are focusing on the show, no? Apologies if I am wrong! I have read the books and that isn't what happens in the books either. Very briefly and incredibly vaguely, what Julia goes through in the books is a truly Herculean effort that also isn't related to an ability to believe. Book In the book the memory wiping spell works and it's only that Julia discovers an error in a paper she allegedly wrote during the period she was at Brakebills. A really sloppy error that she wouldn't have made. What follows is a really, really arduous path and the poor woman actually does attempt to go off to Yale and put her life back together...but the Hedge Witch/Underground Magic group actually set out a very deliberate path and test for her to find her way back to them. Edited February 1, 2016 by stillshimpy 4 Link to comment
xaxat February 1, 2016 Share February 1, 2016 (edited) It's funny, but something similar to what happened to Julia happened to me in real life. I was a punk collegiate drop our (OK, I was kicked out) waiting tables when I decided on a lark to take the Foreign Service Officer Exam. It's the test the State Department uses to find future diplomats. To my surprise, I scored well enough that was invited to DC for an interview, the second part of the hiring process. There was another test, group exercises and the final part was an interview in front of three employees of the Foreign Service (just like on the show). The panel asked a series of "What would you do/recommend if. . ." hypothetical questions. I did really well for the first couple of questions, but the last question I totally bombed on. Not only was I disappointed, I could see on the face of the lead interviewer that he was as well and that I was done. They said "Thank you." and I was shown the exit. I took the test a couple of times after that, but never got back to the interview stage. Unlike Julia though, I was never invited to join the shadow State Department. Edited February 1, 2016 by xaxat 5 Link to comment
paramitch February 1, 2016 Share February 1, 2016 (edited) I've read all the books, and was very excited for this (I didn't love book one at first, but adored books two and three, and upon reread enjoyed all three and their specific journey). I was also really happy overall with the first two episodes, and am always kind of energized to see how a story will translate to a new medium. I'm not tough on book-to-film or book-to-tv at all (ahem, I think my avatar also shows that as well, hee) -- each offers something new and lovely so many times. I will say however that nothing has perhaps harmed the books or the series as the constant references to "Harry Potter for Grownups." Just... no. It's not. Seriously. Not remotely. There is magic and there is a school, but the universes could not be more different. (I have posted in the book thread about specific differences if anyone wants to talk further there.) Meanwhile, I was very happy with this in many ways. I enjoyed most of the casting -- I adore Esme Bianco and thought she did pretty amazing work with an initially thankless character on "Game of Thrones," so I LOVED seeing her here as Eliza. I also loved seeing Rick Worthy, who I think is so handsome and charismatic, but dammit, the poor guy never plays characters who have it easy! Sigh. I hope the Dean recovers. I also love the casting for Quentin, Penny (good lord, I forgot how handsome Arjun Gupta is), and for Eliot especially. I like Pete's actor and tentatively like Julia's actress as well, even if she isn't what I envisioned at all in the book. I was also thrilled to see wonderful Kacey Rohl as Marina (I loved her so much on "Hannibal") and loved the sudden complexity she showed here. My jury's still out on Alice, Kady and Margot. I certainly identified with the depressed protagonist who likes to lose himself in fantasy books rather than talk to people at a party. I also liked the Julia character, though I could have done without the gratuitous bra scene (guess they always have to please those SyFy fanboys -- but what about us girls? I think (and hope) that there was a deliberate reason that Julia's first outside test was one that was disturbing and potentially violent. I was very uncomfortable with it, and just as relieved when Pete revealed that it was all a test and was actually rather endearingly awkward and upset that she thought he would actually rape her (his stammered, "Oh, no, no, I would never, never..." did at least soften the situation a bit). Not sure it works to bring forward Julia's story so early but I guess they wanted a dual protagonist structure. I think it's also a necessity for the adaptation, however, since both take place at the same time. Flashing back to Julia next season as "Book 2" I think would be very awkward, and would certainly have many viewers wondering why she's hijacking the story, who she is, and what her deal is. This way, she begins as the dual protagonist she is ultimately revealed to be in the books, so it works. And I love the added nuance that comes with watching Julia's seedy nightly struggles side-by-side with Quentin's far brighter sunnier journey thus far. ....But, but, Julia IS just as whiny as Quentin, and she's just as selfish--more so, actually. At least, Quentin gives some thought to Julia(clumsy phone call! Ha!) albeit in a whiny, snuffling, 'come pity me' manner. Whereas, Julia couldn't give two and one-half shits about Quentin thus far. I really find this comparison very apples and oranges, and I can't really agree that what Julia is doing is actual whining. I also find it hard to measure their behavior based on the fact that Quentin is in love with Julia but Julia doesn't return that. We saw that pretty clearly early on, but we also saw that she does care about him. Ironically, I thought Quentin's call to Julia was actually very selfish, especially after his pretty tone-deaf previous response to her similar situation. But I also think that's very true to life. He didn't show any sympathy to her when she confessed to him about the school situation, and was actually kind of smug and (I felt) ever so slightly enjoying his situation. I don't think this makes Quentin a terrible person, but it was hard to watch. Especially as he had it so easy -- he's basically invited into magic, steps into the green and perfect school grounds (in a very very deliberately "entering Narnia" moment), and is then encouraged and even pushed to reveal his gift. Julia meanwhile finds herself in a sort of creepy/weird corridor suddenly, handles the freefall of the testing scenario in a more skeptical/scientific way, and then boom. Judged. Failed. And has to sit across from a smirky little man who tells her she is magical just as he also reveals that he is going to take away her very knowledge of it from her. It made me sick in an empathetic sort of way. Yet most of us find some way to be unhappy with our lot in life, no matter how spectacular this world of privilege and opportunity affords. I think Quentin irks people because he's us. A guy given everything and it still isn't enough. As for Julia, yeah, imagine being her just for a moment: You find out magic is real. Every fairy story you told yourself as a child, every make-believe you could conjure was there, out there, waiting for you. My god, it's like Life Powerball, imagine the possibilities!! But you can't have it. This world-bending, reality changing thing, every dream, every possibility you ever wanted is real...but you've been rejected from it. It's not entitled to take that as a soul-crushing blow. The keys to the Kingdom, Dude, but you've been judged and found wanting, and why? For every trait that has made you successful in this now too mundane and ordinary world.. As someone who has always been a dreamer and writer, who kept a knapsack in my closet prepared to go off with Bilbo and the dwarves, who checked every closet for Narnia, I understand Julia. Her situation is one of the worst things I can imagine: Yes, magic and fantasy exist. No, you are not worthy to experience them. AGHGHGHG. Julia's parallel story as it's shown here has me holding my breath already. I love the difference between her journey and Quentin's. Quentin already feels so much younger than she is, and so much more naive. It's like he was invited into the House of Magic via a big sunny front door while Julia is going to have to fight her way through a maze in darkness and then pick the locks at the back. I hope it's not just simply all brushed away and shrugged off as no big deal. It was distressing to watch. I'm secretly hoping Julie turns out to be the hero, not Quentin. Julia is my favorite character in the books, and I'm very pleased with how they're handling her journey thus far. The actual scenes are different from the books, but the feel of her struggle thus far is the same for me. I also love the group she's found herself with and am interested to see how Kady bridges the gap between the two, as she evidently will (she is not a book character). That isn't quite what happened though. Contrast what happened to Quentin and to Julia: He has someone give him this "Wait, don't forget this!" packet and there's someone waiting for him with his name on a card. He gets to interact with someone and is TOLD where he is at that moment. What happens to Julia is she gets on an elevator and exits into what seems a hallucination. Rather than freaking out at any turn, she follows signs, sits down in the fucked weird reality and attempts to take the test and the first person she interacts with is Quentin who has had it explained to him where he is and what is going on, before he sits down. Julia was flying by the seat of her pants. It has nothing to do with refusing to believe. It's that she tried to have the test make sense because her reality has already stood on its ear and she didn't have a helpful guide waiting for her. She doesn't have any problems believing, at all. She just didn't understand the approach she was meant to take. She begs the professor for another chance. She believes and leaves that scar on herself so that cannot magically wipe her mind. She believes so much that she CONTINUES SEARCHING through countless bullshit spells until she finds one that works. She fucking believes, and won't give up until she finds one that works...and then waits for the only other person she knows she saw there to ask him for help. Also she tells Quentin to sell his first editions because he's been in a mental hospital and has retreated from a party to interact with the books. She's not rejected for failure to believe, she's rejected because she can't make sense of the test and desperately wants to try again. When she's told they'll take her memory away, she believes that so much that she maims herself to make sure that won't even work. Girlfriend believes. In her case it's not comparable to being the snot-nosed kid who is just determined to be miserable, it would be like my telling a 22-year-old "You get to go back to 1974 now! Don't worry! You'll like it! Oh sure, it will be a good five years before the VCR is invented and PCs are well in the offing. Also you'll get used to using Encyclopedias instead of googling everything. Facetime? You'll never miss it. Or cell phones, or smart TVs or Netflix or anything. There are three channels and a slew of variety shows, you'll be happy! Hold still while I hit you over the head with this time machine. Mmmm, kay?" And you are stuck in 1974, knowing that 2016 is out there. I think this put Julia's situation very well. I would also add that with Julia, there is the undercurrent of what I would call a dual yearning/fear response. She yearns to believe. That's why it scares her. That's why she is cautious. That's why she doesn't jump in with both feet. Because to do so blindly could be absolutely catastrophic if you do it too soon, without understanding the situation. Quentin just jumps with both feet, but Julia isn't that kind of person, I think. I don't judge either response as better or worse, it's just that they're different. And I can't help but feel for Julia when she is so harshly punished simply for taking a moment longer to process a situation for which she was completely unprepared. I think the point is to set up Julia's sense of entitlement. As Quentin stated, she's the type who always excels and gets what she wants. The fact that she was reject by a group whose acceptance would make her extraordinary is more than her puffed up ego can take. I'm inferring that this will be the rationale used to justify her aligning herself with people who at best are clearly not well-intentioned, and at worst are outright evil and capable of anything to get what they want. I don't agree with any read on Julia as being "entitled" in any way. And I absolutely don't think that her rejection is simply a blow to her "puffed up ego" (nor do I agree that this is what we've seen). I think there's a huge difference between someone who is consistently willing to work to achieve excellence, and someone who always "gets what they want." Julia's willingness to work, to embrace magic, to prove that she can do this, that Brakebills was wrong to reject her, are all very understandable to me and not remotely entitled. She has shown herself to be someone willing to work for excellence, and here, she was thrown into a situation for which she was unprepared, was told that magic is real, and was then judged as harshly as possible for a response in which she wasn't even able to process that fact. I also think it's too soon to judge her new companions as evil or not well-intentioned. In both testing scenarios, she was pushed to demonstrate her magical and problem-solving abilities under duress (as with Quentin, it's a safe assumption that a stress or a 'push' are often required for the magical abilities to show themselves for neophytes). Yet it was also revealed that Pete had no intention of actually harming her, and that even in the freezer, she was not nearly in the amount of danger she perceived at the time. I just don't see them as evil, at least not yet. I see them as being outsiders who are willing to work outside the rules and on the fringe to get into a society that appears pretty determined not to let the 'unworthy' enter it. Quentin and his cronies are the shiny happy privileged ones, but that door has already been shut for Julia and the others, which is why I love the way they're assembling in these crummy old houses on the fringes and getting tattoos that show their level of skill. Anyway, thanks for the chance to discuss these first episodes -- I love most of what I've seen thus far, and I'm all in. Magic for the win! Edited February 1, 2016 by paramitch 10 Link to comment
Lemur February 1, 2016 Share February 1, 2016 That isn't quite what happened though. Contrast what happened to Quentin and to Julia: He has someone give him this "Wait, don't forget this!" packet and there's someone waiting for him with his name on a card. He gets to interact with someone and is TOLD where he is at that moment. What happens to Julia is she gets on an elevator and exits into what seems a hallucination. Rather than freaking out at any turn, she follows signs, sits down in the fucked weird reality and attempts to take the test and the first person she interacts with is Quentin who has had it explained to him where he is and what is going on, before he sits down. Julia was flying by the seat of her pants. It has nothing to do with refusing to believe. It's that she tried to have the test make sense because her reality has already stood on its ear and she didn't have a helpful guide waiting for her. She doesn't have any problems believing, at all. She just didn't understand the approach she was meant to take. She begs the professor for another chance. She believes and leaves that scar on herself so that cannot magically wipe her mind. She believes so much that she CONTINUES SEARCHING through countless bullshit spells until she finds one that works. She fucking believes, and won't give up until she finds one that works...and then waits for the only other person she knows she saw there to ask him for help. Also she tells Quentin to sell his first editions because he's been in a mental hospital and has retreated from a party to interact with the books. She's not rejected for failure to believe, she's rejected because she can't make sense of the test and desperately wants to try again. When she's told they'll take her memory away, she believes that so much that she maims herself to make sure that won't even work. Girlfriend believes. In her case it's not comparable to being the snot-nosed kid who is just determined to be miserable, it would be like my telling a 22-year-old "You get to go back to 1974 now! Don't worry! You'll like it! Oh sure, it will be a good five years before the VCR is invented and PCs are well in the offing. Also you'll get used to using Encyclopedias instead of googling everything. Facetime? You'll never miss it. Or cell phones, or smart TVs or Netflix or anything. There are three channels and a slew of variety shows, you'll be happy! Hold still while I hit you over the head with this time machine. Mmmm, kay?" And you are stuck in 1974, knowing that 2016 is out there. Again, I disagree. Keep in mind, and this has nothing to do with the book, that Julia isn't being set up as The Chosen One. So therefore there is no one guiding her to the school. She's skeptical of the place right up until she's told she may have had some magical aptitude and then disputes it immediately. She didn't believe until she was told. I have read the books and that isn't what happens in the books either. Very briefly and incredibly vaguely, what Julia goes through in the books is a truly Herculean effort that also isn't related to an ability to believe. And you'll remember in the book, she spends the exam - which is a pity it wasn't presented in the show because it's a really cool scene - looking around and trying to figure out what the hell is going on and why all of these people are just sitting there taking a really bizarre exam instead of asking questions. Quentin jumped in and rolled with it. Julia didn't quite start getting an inkling of what had happened until there was an issue with a paper she was writing, which sent her down the rabbit hole. It's obviously up to interpretation, and again, cheating because I'm stealing a bit from the books and what's to come in them, so to frame it without potentially spoiling it is difficult. Consider Mayakovsky's speeches about magic and what makes a truly great magician when they are at Brakebills South, as well as Josh's inconsistencies as a spellcaster. Link to comment
stillshimpy February 1, 2016 Share February 1, 2016 (edited) Julia's parallel story as it's shown here has me holding my breath already. I love the difference between her journey and Quentin's. Quentin already feels so much younger than she is, and so much more naive. It's like he was invited into the House of Magic via a big sunny front door while Julia is going to have to fight her way through a maze in darkness and then pick the locks at the back. Very briefly, for the moment, far from setting up an arc about "Julia is entitled" the books and seemingly now the show, demonstrate Quentin's Male Privilege at every turn. For everything handed to Quentin -- and clearly without realizing "Holy Shit, I won the Everything Lottery!" -- Julia has to fight her ass off and is initially denied things just given to Quentin because....he's Quentin (and I like Quentin from the books). They changed a couple of things about Alice, but even in this she didn't receive an invitation -- she had to invite her own ass to the place and whereas here it was a fairly easy "I stole the key from my parents" to put it mildly, she goes through more in the books to get there. It's not subtle, it isn't an accident, in Grossman's tale the two main female characters have to slug it out with all the fates to get what is given to men. It's kind of a cool and empowering theme and I was glad to see it continued here. I know the bra scene was upsetting, but what I liked about it? Julia kicks ass as a response whereas before she struggled to make sparkly lights for Quentin, when it's back to the wall time? "Hi, I'm part Wolverine! Sure you want to fuck with me? Nope, didn't think so." Again, I disagree. Keep in mind, and this has nothing to do with the book, that Julia isn't being set up as The Chosen One. So therefore there is no one guiding her to the school. She's skeptical of the place right up until she's told she may have had some magical aptitude and then disputes it immediately. She didn't believe until she was told. We will simply have to continue to disagree then, because I see an entirely different point to both the books and the series, neither of which line up with yours. Edited February 1, 2016 by stillshimpy 6 Link to comment
wayne67 February 2, 2016 Share February 2, 2016 Wait Quentin is supposed to be lucky to be in a school where he's apparently a target for occult forces he doesn't understand and also quite likely to die in a school with the worst mortality rate ever ? I didn't know Male Privilege meant you got depression, strange foreboding dreams about garden paths and the oncoming threat of Moth Man and the Beast and probable death as a result of spell casting. Julia gets the option at a long and possibly mediocre life... Oh and she can still do internet magic... but apparently that's not good enough. So she feels compelled to risk her life to what? exactly ? learn more spells ? for something ? Which is why I don't care about Quentin or Julia. They both come off as whiney to me. I prefer Elliot's modus operandi. I may die horribly and suffer from crippling guilt over a telekinetic murder I committed at the age of 14 but I'm going to enjoy casting magic as long as I survive and PARTY :P At least he has some life in him. 2 Link to comment
carrps February 2, 2016 Share February 2, 2016 Elliot reminds me of a tall Johnny Weir. And I'm Team Julia all the way. 4 Link to comment
paramitch February 2, 2016 Share February 2, 2016 (edited) Very briefly, for the moment, far from setting up an arc about "Julia is entitled" the books and seemingly now the show, demonstrate Quentin's Male Privilege at every turn. It's not subtle, it isn't an accident, in Grossman's tale the two main female characters have to slug it out with all the fates to get what is given to men. It's kind of a cool and empowering theme and I was glad to see it continued here. I know the bra scene was upsetting, but what I liked about it? Julia kicks ass as a response whereas before she struggled to make sparkly lights for Quentin, when it's back to the wall time? "Hi, I'm part Wolverine! Sure you want to fuck with me? Nope, didn't think so." I really liked that as well, that when she had to defend herself, Julia all of a sudden is like magical rocket fuel. It was a great moment, especially in comparison to Quentin's visible contempt for her poor little finger-sparks earlier. Wait Quentin is supposed to be lucky to be in a school where he's apparently a target for occult forces he doesn't understand and also quite likely to die in a school with the worst mortality rate ever ? I didn't know Male Privilege meant you got depression, strange foreboding dreams about garden paths and the oncoming threat of Moth Man and the Beast and probable death as a result of spell casting. Julia gets the option at a long and possibly mediocre life... Oh and she can still do internet magic... but apparently that's not good enough. So she feels compelled to risk her life to what? exactly ? learn more spells ? for something ? My short answer would be, Yes. Quentin is lucky to be wafted into Brakebills -- I mean, he practically gets an engraved invitation, while Julia is dumped right in the middle of the corridor to the test with no welcome, no moment of companionship or acclimatization, no nothing. The difference between how Quentin gets in and how Alice does so (and how Julia is turned away) is pretty striking. Male privilege doesn't mean Quentin has it perfect or that he can't be depressed or have his own struggles. It just means he has it easier in a lot of ways, even if he's not aware of it. That doesn't mean that magic isn't dangerous, however. I definitely don't think Quentin's situation is safe, because magic itself isn't safe. Magic is scary and wild and the school is pretty honest about the fact that bad things happen pretty often (even if lately it seems more often than usual). So yes it's a risk for Quentin or anyone else to stay there. But it's a risk, to me, that comes with saying yes to magic in general. I think it will always be dangerous and unpredictable. Why should Internet magic be enough for Julia? Why shouldn't she want to keep studying and learning, and finding her gift? I can't imagine many people who wouldn't do at least a little exploration if they discovered, hey, I can do actual freaking magic. As for whether Quentin is lucky or privileged even with all that danger, I'd say again, that yes he is. I dislike most Harry Potter comparisons for The Magicians, but even with the Chamber of Secrets or Voldemort, I don't know many people who wouldn't want to go to Hogwarts in a heartbeat if they actually could -- versus choosing to be a Muggle with a "long, mediocre life" (what a subtly terrible thing). Edited to fix terrible parentheses. Edited February 2, 2016 by paramitch 4 Link to comment
wayne67 February 2, 2016 Share February 2, 2016 Why should Internet magic be enough for Julia? Why shouldn't she want to keep studying and learning, and finding her gift? I can't imagine many people who wouldn't do at least a little exploration if they discovered, hey, I can do actual freaking magic. My biggest problem with Julia is that I have no idea why she wants to do magic other than that she was told she couldn't learn from the magic school. Quentin sees it as a way out of his depression which doesn't seem like it's working very well since I don't think he's cracked a smile the entire time. Julia had a guy assault her on her birthday with magic, dealt with a possessed corpse and I have no indication as to why she's putting herself through this ordeal. Sure magic is great but the price tag is probable death. If she had goals of using magic to cure a loved one, fight some dark demonic thingymawhatsits or even to make her hair straighter maybe I could understand her risking her life to pursue magic... But it seems a fairly steep price to pay for what the show paints as pique for not being allowed into an exclusive club. It comes off as she's so bored of what the world has to offer she's willing to throw it all away to pursue magic for no end goal whatsoever. At least Harry Potter had his parents to avenge/feel closer to with magic I assume. I only read the first book and watched a couple movies before bailing on that. Quentin isn't being told he has a great destiny and Julia has no compelling reason to want to do higher order magic as far as I can tell. Maybe the next episode will provide some kind of clarity to Julia's motivations. Also does she still have a boyfriend ? 1 Link to comment
paramitch February 3, 2016 Share February 3, 2016 My biggest problem with Julia is that I have no idea why she wants to do magic other than that she was told she couldn't learn from the magic school. Quentin sees it as a way out of his depression which doesn't seem like it's working very well since I don't think he's cracked a smile the entire time. Julia had a guy assault her on her birthday with magic, dealt with a possessed corpse and I have no indication as to why she's putting herself through this ordeal. Sure magic is great but the price tag is probable death. If she had goals of using magic to cure a loved one, fight some dark demonic thingymawhatsits or even to make her hair straighter maybe I could understand her risking her life to pursue magic... But it seems a fairly steep price to pay for what the show paints as pique for not being allowed into an exclusive club. It comes off as she's so bored of what the world has to offer she's willing to throw it all away to pursue magic for no end goal whatsoever. At least Harry Potter had his parents to avenge/feel closer to with magic I assume. I only read the first book and watched a couple movies before bailing on that. Quentin isn't being told he has a great destiny and Julia has no compelling reason to want to do higher order magic as far as I can tell. Maybe the next episode will provide some kind of clarity to Julia's motivations. Also does she still have a boyfriend ? I don't understand the question. Harry didn't want to do magic because of his parents. It was a part of him. It's a part of Quentin. It's a part of Julia. It helps them to express who they are. It isn't a means to an end. For them, magic IS the end. I understand this really well. If you could do magic, wouldn't you want to keep on doing it? How is the desire to do magic not an understandable motivator? For one thing, magic is about power, about understanding, about potential freedom on levels beyond those in our current world, which can certainly be dreary and difficult. While magic has its dangers as we quickly learn, it also seems pretty irresistible. Most clearly, it offers an escape from a difficult and sad current world and into one that is more complex, vibrant and interesting -- a whole other society and level of understanding. I know I'd explore the heck out of even the tiniest flicker of power if I had it. Meanwhile, if y'all want a laugh, I re-viewed this episode recently, and one of the best parts was watching Quentin's interview with Eliza (in one of the other offices -- perhaps Ann Dudek's? Not sure), and if you pay attention, the entire office is FILLED WITH CATS. The mantel is nothing but 3-4 cat pictures. Then there are cat sculptures there and on the desk. Plus a kind of cat carousel on the desk and a mug saying " CRAZY CAT LADY." Just the best set dressing ever. I kept wondering if it was a cute shoutout to the incredibly evil and scary Dolores Umbridge. Which <shiver> -- she scared me way more than Voldemort, man. And meanwhile, I mean, if it's the Dean's desk? I am totally dying here. 5 Link to comment
wayne67 February 3, 2016 Share February 3, 2016 I don't understand the question. Harry didn't want to do magic because of his parents. It was a part of him. It's a part of Quentin. It's a part of Julia. It helps them to express who they are. It isn't a means to an end. For them, magic IS the end. I understand this really well. If you could do magic, wouldn't you want to keep on doing it? How is the desire to do magic not an understandable motivator? For one thing, magic is about power, about understanding, about potential freedom on levels beyond those in our current world, which can certainly be dreary and difficult. While magic has its dangers as we quickly learn, it also seems pretty irresistible. Most clearly, it offers an escape from a difficult and sad current world and into one that is more complex, vibrant and interesting -- a whole other society and level of understanding. I know I'd explore the heck out of even the tiniest flicker of power if I had it. Didn't Harry accidentally display magic and get an invite to join a magical school and get told he was the chosen one destined to kill Voldemort? That sounds like a motivation to do magic to me. As for whether I would do magic, it would really depend on the type of magic and the cost. As an adult I think about risk vs reward. Is the magic I'm using like the covenant magic where the magic you use hastens your own death? Is it the type of genie type magic, flashy but with horribly ironic consequences based on word choices ? Is it the Discworld magic where if you use too much of it you disrupt the fabric of reality and unleash Dungeon Dimension creatures on everyone. So far doing magic for magics sake doesn't really explore the characters inner world much. The price tag for this magic seems a mix between draining your life force and unpredictable results. It'd be nice to get more motivation for these adults wanting to learn all this magic other than "OMG magic is real, look how cool I am, I can make a dove appear from my hands". Especially since this magic comes with the caveat that it will probably kill you during training. Only 2 survivors of the 3rd year class would make me question whether to limit myself to parlor tricks instead of learning higher magic. There's also no indication about whether they're allowed to use it in the outside world or what the difference between being a trained magician and a hedge witch. Link to comment
Clanstarling February 4, 2016 Share February 4, 2016 (edited) The "Harry Potter" marketing reference did kind of turn me off at first (though I loved Harry Potter). The pilot episode didn't wow me until the Beast came in, and I loved the way he was done. Even so, I didn't watch the second episode until today. I liked it better than the first episode, so I'll keep watching. I don't dislike any of the characters at the moment - I didn't read the books, so I have no expectations regarding plot or characterization. Edited February 4, 2016 by clanstarling Link to comment
stillshimpy February 5, 2016 Share February 5, 2016 (edited) Male privilege doesn't mean Quentin has it perfect or that he can't be depressed or have his own struggles. It just means he has it easier in a lot of ways, even if he's not aware of it. Precisely, paramitch, and as always? Awesome to see you in a forum, my longtime friend. That really is the most concise way of putting it. Male Privilege isn't interchangeable with perfection, it just means fewer challenges than those faced by women and often people of color. What may be difficult for a white male, is far, fare more difficult for women or POC. Not effortless, just much easier. I have no indication as to why she's putting herself through this ordeal. Because it is magic? Reality changing, limitless potential realizing magic? It has nothing to do with being told she can't have it -- and by the way mention was acutally made by Julia to Quentin that belief in Fillory (a magical land) was what got them both through the hellscape that was high school for them. So that's why. Edited February 5, 2016 by stillshimpy 3 Link to comment
wayne67 February 5, 2016 Share February 5, 2016 Male Privilege isn't interchangeable with perfection, it just means fewer challenges than those faced by women and often people of color. What may be difficult for a white male, is far, fare more difficult for women or POC. Not effortless, just much easier. Quentin and Julia both had the same test (from what I could gather) and were presumably judged on their results not their gender. If Quentin is given preferable treatment which I'm not sure he has it's because he dreams of Filory not because he's male. That specialist also had a potential to live up to for the same reason and she was female. So I don't see any particular gender bias. Julia failed the test. She didn't get in. Quentin passed he got in. There's been no indication that male magicians are preferred over females. We had 4 potential magicians casts a spell and there was equal numbers of boys and girls. The only person that could possibly be said to have a leg up over everyone else is Alice because she had parents that were magical alumns and a brother that taught her magic. She got magic keys that bypassed the normal process of admission and she was a legacy. So I'd say of what we've seen so far the system is rigged in lots of different ways and none appear to be gender biased. Link to comment
paramitch February 5, 2016 Share February 5, 2016 (edited) Quentin and Julia both had the same test (from what I could gather) and were presumably judged on their results not their gender. If Quentin is given preferable treatment which I'm not sure he has it's because he dreams of Filory not because he's male. That specialist also had a potential to live up to for the same reason and she was female. So I don't see any particular gender bias. Julia failed the test. She didn't get in. Quentin passed he got in. There's been no indication that male magicians are preferred over females. We had 4 potential magicians casts a spell and there was equal numbers of boys and girls. The only person that could possibly be said to have a leg up over everyone else is Alice because she had parents that were magical alumns and a brother that taught her magic. She got magic keys that bypassed the normal process of admission and she was a legacy. So I'd say of what we've seen so far the system is rigged in lots of different ways and none appear to be gender biased. No, wait, I feel like this is backtracking quite a bit. Quentin isn't an example of male privilege because he passed and Julia didn't. Quentin is an example of male privilege because he was: Literally invited in (the "college advisor meeting" with the guy who died was supposed to invite him to Brakebills) Given a gift (by Eliza) that led him directly to the magical portal Allowed to enter a sunlit Brakebills where he is greeted by Eliot by name (complete with a printed card) Eliot then (1) assures Quentin he's not crazy, (2) tells him about the upcoming test, and (3) personally escorts him to the testing room Compare that with Julia, who: Unexpectedly ends up in a Brakebills hallway after a creepy elevator ride at night Is not greeted, spoken to, or given any information or instruction Literally wanders into the testing hall like your worst nightmare from high school, completely in shock and unprepared Is not allowed to ask even one question when she tries as testing starts And is treated with fairly visible contempt by the advisor who fails her (and again by Quentin later on, not once but twice) Or compare that with Alice who: Wasn't invited even as a magical prodigy in a family of magicians Stole her parents' 'magical key cards' to Brakebills (and had to figure out a new enchantment) -- she wasn't "given" a key Then she literally broke into Brakebills -- forcing her way in -- only then was she allowed to study there. I definitely don't think these are accidental and do think that Grossman and the show are exploring a certain amount of irony and privilege in Quentin's situation. That's where the gender bias comes in. I definitely think it's deliberate. Edited February 5, 2016 by paramitch 5 Link to comment
Lemur February 5, 2016 Share February 5, 2016 I never got the impression that Quentin was the recipient of Male Privilege. More he's The Chosen One. But as I don't keep up with this sort of thing, do the two go hand in hand? Are Chose Ones always male and thus it's another Male Privilege? 1 Link to comment
wayne67 February 5, 2016 Share February 5, 2016 I never got the impression that Quentin was the recipient of Male Privilege. More he's The Chosen One. But as I don't keep up with this sort of thing, do the two go hand in hand? Are Chose Ones always male and thus it's another Male Privilege? Nine Lives of Chloe King has a female chosen one who drips with special treatment. The Circle and the Craft could all be argued to feature heavily female protagonists. Most books with a female protagonist tends to have super special abilities which is kind of how it works with protagonists. Most of the Game of Throne females are nobles for instance, Khaleesi is an albino girl with dragon magic . Kate Durran has super special blood magic. Elena is the first female werewolf. So on and so on. Quentin is an example of male privilege because he was: Literally invited in (the "college advisor meeting" with the guy who died was supposed to invite him to Brakebills) Given a gift (by Eliza) that led him directly to the magical portal Allowed to enter a sunlit Brakebills where he is greeted by Eliot by name (complete with a printed card) Eliot then (1) assures Quentin he's not crazy, (2) tells him about the upcoming test, and (3) personally escorts him to the testing room Compare that with Julia, who: Unexpectedly ends up in a Brakebills hallway after a creepy elevator ride at night Is not greeted, spoken to, or given any information or instruction Literally wanders into the testing hall like your worst nightmare from high school, completely in shock and unprepared Is not allowed to ask even one question when she tries as testing starts And is treated with fairly visible contempt by the advisor who fails her (and again by Quentin later on, not once but twice) Or compare that with Alice who: Wasn't invited even as a magical prodigy in a family of magicians Stole her parents' 'magical key cards' to Brakebills (and had to figure out a new enchantment) -- she wasn't "given" a key Then she literally broke into Brakebills -- forcing her way in -- only then was she allowed to study there. I definitely don't think these are accidental and do think that Grossman and the show are exploring a certain amount of irony and privilege in Quentin's situation. That's where the gender bias comes in. I definitely think it's deliberate. It's a bit of a reach to say all males have it easier since the only male we follow is the Male Chosen One and is of course given preferential treatment over everyone. If we saw another male get the sort of treatment Quentin does... Maybe we could infer Male privilege then because we would have two data points. Quentin is not the norm for anything. He's the chosen one, the presumably super special one who'll prove himself in the last act. Quentin got headhunted. Julia tagged along. He supposedly has a great destiny. She may chase one down. As for Alice being a magical prodigy. We've seen her display great skill in ONE spell. Which she was taught an unknown amount of years ago by her brother. We have no idea if she is a magical prodigy, she's just good at the ONE spell she knows. The reason she probably didn't get an invite from Brakebills has probably more to do with her dead brother than her gender. Brakebills has already allowed one member of that family to die at that school and if her parents survived a Darwinian stay at Brakebills they might not be eager to let their last offspring go off to die. Julia got treated with contempt by Quentin and the advisor because she's asking/demanding special treatment. She wants a retest and while that might be a thing you can ask of faculty. It's a stupid thing to ask of a new student. It's like saying a Harvard Student has any pull with Harvard admissions board. 3 Link to comment
stillshimpy February 6, 2016 Share February 6, 2016 (edited) Julia got treated with contempt by Quentin and the advisor because she's asking/demanding special treatment. As opposed to Quentin, who was simply given it which in this instance means she was asking for equal treatment. Edited February 6, 2016 by stillshimpy 2 Link to comment
Black Knight February 6, 2016 Share February 6, 2016 I just got around to watching this last night. I've read the books, and my feelings about those are that I merely liked the first book (mainly because of Quentin's extreme annoyingness), absolutely loved the second book, and loved the final book nearly as much. The reason I give this background is because I actually hadn't been looking forward to the TV adaptation that much because I expected the first season, and possibly more, would only be covering the first book. I got so excited when I realized that they moved Julia's storyline - a big part of why I love the second book the most, and my favorite storyline of the whole series - up to this season. It makes sense now that I think about it, because it would've been nuts to try to do her story in flashbacks later - it's too big a storyline to fit into one flashback episode, but it'd be hard to do a series of episodes that include sustained flashback sequences while also trying to move the current story along. Plus it's very effective to have her street learning juxtaposed with Brakebills' formal education. Getting to have Julia's storyline now makes it totally easy for me to deal with book 1/S1 Quentin (I do look forward to seeing his book 2/book 3 material, hoping the show lasts long enough for that). And the show's doing a great job with it so far...I'm very happy. I like the actress playing Alice a lot. I keep feeling like I've seen her somewhere before and yet I know I haven't. She's a cross between a few actresses - Stephanie March, Leven Rambin, maybe one or two others I can't quite put my finger on right now - and that's what's giving me the deja vu feeling. 2 Link to comment
wayne67 February 6, 2016 Share February 6, 2016 As opposed to Quentin, who was simply given it which in this instance means she was asking for equal treatment. She didn't get special treatment because she's not special. It'd be like an average joe asking for the same treatment a celebrity gets. Harvard doesn't want average people, they want the best of the best. Quentin is supposedly special because he's one of two people who get interactions with the Fillory people. The other being the specialist he met. Also Julia doesn't know that Quentin got any special treatment so she doesn't even know she's asking for supposedly equal treatment. So far all Quentin got was a convoluted invitation to the school involving a dead body and a preppy boy giving him the white rabbit you're late treatment. She keeps harassing Quentin trying to make him feel guilty for getting in when she didn't and trying to end run the whole admissions process. She got tested, she failed. It happens to lots of people. Admittedly Quentin could have asked Elliot about the admission process but considering Julia's attitude I don't know why he'd want to spend any more time around her type A personality. 3 Link to comment
paramitch February 6, 2016 Share February 6, 2016 It's a bit of a reach to say all males have it easier since the only male we follow is the Male Chosen One and is of course given preferential treatment over everyone. But I never said that "all males have it easier" (and it would be an understatement to say it's a pretty simplistic reduction of the concept of male privilege). I got so excited when I realized that they moved Julia's storyline - a big part of why I love the second book the most, and my favorite storyline of the whole series - up to this season. <snipped for space> Plus it's very effective to have her street learning juxtaposed with Brakebills' formal education. Getting to have Julia's storyline now makes it totally easy for me to deal with book 1/S1 Quentin (I do look forward to seeing his book 2/book 3 material, hoping the show lasts long enough for that). And the show's doing a great job with it so far...I'm very happy. This perfectly reflected where I was coming from on the series as well. I've been really pleasantly surprised thus far. She didn't get special treatment because she's not special. It'd be like an average joe asking for the same treatment a celebrity gets. <snipped for space> Also Julia doesn't know that Quentin got any special treatment so she doesn't even know she's asking for supposedly equal treatment. But we have already seen that Julia IS special, and a seriously talented magician. Julia was specifically denied Brakebills because they believed that the test showed she had no magical ability. They were wrong. And I can't agree that just because Julia isn't aware of Quentin's special treatment that this makes it anymore acceptable. What is happening to Julia is incredibly unfair, but it makes for a great story (and an interesting counterpoint to Quentin's journey), and I'm rooting for her. Anyway, I think at this point we'll just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for the discussion. 2 Link to comment
stillshimpy February 6, 2016 Share February 6, 2016 (edited) She didn't get special treatment because she's not special. It'd be like an average joe asking for the same treatment a celebrity gets. No, Julia is incredibly special. I know that, not just because I have read the books, but because she actually managed to teach herself what will come to be known as a form of battle magic (which we saw previewed here). The test was to determine if she had magical ability but Quentin was bombing it until Ricky Worthy's Dean gets directly in his face and screams at him to do some magic. Quentin does a truly impressive card trick at that point. When threatened and with no training other than what she taught herself on the internet, Julia shoots slicing lightning from her hands. Even with the scope of this episode, Quentin is not the better magician. Julia is actually the better magician in the books, by .....a LOT....as is Alice but here he is not being presented as the more talented one, just an equal one. Quentin isn't the greatest magical force in this even within these episodes. Although Alice's conjuring of the little glass horse isn't played as big as Quentin's card trick, everyone there was pretty impressed and she also had to fight her way into the school. So we've got one woman on the outside, rejected because she wasn't handed the engraved invitation and one on the inside who had to beat down the door to get in there and both are at least equal in the TV series's telling of the story in terms of talent. Also Julia doesn't know that Quentin got any special treatment so she doesn't even know she's asking for supposedly equal treatment. She asks her friend for help. This is not interchangeable with asking for specialized treatment and to me it doesn't matter that she doesn't know Quentin received special treatment, we know Julia is asking to be treated equally. The Audience saw that Quentin was met by the ambassador of explanation and reassurance contrasted with Julia's "I wonder if the barista drugged the fuck out of me??" elevator ride. In the tale that Grossman told it's even more apparent, so they mildly toned down while keeping a lot of Grossman's themes intact. Anyway, I think at this point we'll just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for the discussion. I join you in this, paramitch. In part because Series to Book comparison whereas I never had as much difficulty liking Quentin as some, the biggest challenge to that was not his general approach to life, but knowing that when he sees Julia after he's been at Brakebills, far from confirming where he is, he lets her think she's just nuts, tries to send the magical mind-wipe goon squad after her by telling the Dean the mindwipe failed...and she manages to get away from them again....and then he will finally admit to Julia that part of the reason he didn't help her had to do with liking that feeling of being more special than she was and also -- the most difficult part -- partially as punishment for Julia having never returned his feelings for her. One thing I liked about Grossman is that he included flaws in Quentin that are so incredibly human and realistic. I'm glad they removed those details from the story, because it was only forgivable in an 18 year old, late-adolescent and just barely then. Also, Quentin admits that to Julia and is actually apologetic, realizes it was petty and cruel. The books take Quentin from that flawed, human impulse into actual growth. I think that's why I liked Quentin. He fucks up, knows it and actually trie to become a better guy and does. The reason I give this background is because I actually hadn't been looking forward to the TV adaptation that much because I expected the first season, and possibly more, would only be covering the first book. I got so excited when I realized that they moved Julia's storyline - a big part of why I love the second book the most, and my favorite storyline of the whole series - up to this season. It makes sense now that I think about it, because it would've been nuts to try to do her story in flashbacks later - it's too big a storyline to fit into one flashback episode, but it'd be hard to do a series of episodes that include sustained flashback sequences while also trying to move the current story along. Plus it's very effective to have her street learning juxtaposed with Brakebills' formal education. Getting to have Julia's storyline now makes it totally easy for me to deal with book 1/S1 Quentin (I do look forward to seeing his book 2/book 3 material, hoping the show lasts long enough for that). And the show's doing a great job with it so far...I'm very happy. - Black Knight It does make sense, but I was also similarly thrilled to see Julia present in the main story from the start. I'm less enthusiastic about the changes to Alice's character, but it's not anything having to do with the actress and I'm willing to wait and see how they develop her. One of the things I adored about the trilogy is that Grossman was that he created such strong female characters. Janet/Margot is currently kind of lost to sight, but since she really didn't come into focus until the third book anyway. Edited February 7, 2016 by SilverStormm Spoiler Tags added Link to comment
wayne67 February 6, 2016 Share February 6, 2016 But we have already seen that Julia IS special, and a seriously talented magician. Julia was specifically denied Brakebills because they believed that the test showed she had no magical ability. They were wrong. Well as an unspoiled audience member I have no idea if she's supposed to be special because the only person who said she was impressive was the guy that was all rapey with her in a bathroom and I'm not conditioned to give those kind of people much credit. Julia displayed magic AFTER her test. It's not much use to the Brakebill staff if she displays magic after they've tested her. It'd be like a football star failing to impress during a game when the football scout is watching then making some impressive play in the next game. She may have magical aptitude but if Brakebills didn't see it, they can't be held to fault for not seeing it. Unless you're suggesting they should fake a rape during the exams just to provoke a magical reaction. 3 Link to comment
paramitch February 6, 2016 Share February 6, 2016 Well as an unspoiled audience member I have no idea if she's supposed to be special because the only person who said she was impressive was the guy that was all rapey with her in a bathroom and I'm not conditioned to give those kind of people much credit. Julia displayed magic AFTER her test. It's not much use to the Brakebill staff if she displays magic after they've tested her. It'd be like a football star failing to impress during a game when the football scout is watching then making some impressive play in the next game. She may have magical aptitude but if Brakebills didn't see it, they can't be held to fault for not seeing it. Unless you're suggesting they should fake a rape during the exams just to provoke a magical reaction. Just in case it helps, to clarify, nothing I have referred to goes beyond the TV show in any way. I have been very careful to show that anything I reference comes from the show (which is very different from the books thus far). Julia has blatantly displayed very powerful magical power ON THE SHOW. How is that spoilery or subtle? It's a fact. Meanwhile, I'll respond to a few additional aspects you reference in case it helps: 1. Brakebills specifically implies it tracks magical ABILITY. Inherent or otherwise. So the fact that it misses not just Julia, but Alice, I think has to imply some serious flaws in the system; 2. I do not think Pete's bathroom test (the faux attempted rape scenario) was specifically important for Julia to manifest ability so much as his triggering a vital and basic defense mechanism. Julia showed tremendous magical power to defend herself there, and what I took from it was that Julia's abilities kicked in when she needed to defend herself (not very different from the Dean pushing Quentin to reveal his abilities in the final testing scene). The situation was unimportant (if disturbing) -- what was important was that Julia was basically rocket fuel-magic-girl there. She was able to save herself in seconds and show serious magical chops. 3. But Julia IS special. Honestly, her magical abilities show that she is more special than Quentin at this point. Julia's magical abilities have been commented on and complimented not just by Pete, but by Marina and the "hedge witch" team, repeatedly implying that she's learning at a seriously impressive rate. So again, Brakebills failed. They literally said they were wrong when they thought she could be capable of magic. She has been able to prove them wrong with a vengeance almost right away. And continuously since then. Anyway. Again, I just think we are never going to agree. So I'll bow out after this from any further discussion to avoid repetition. I appreciate the chance to debate as always. Cheers! 2 Link to comment
formerlyfreedom February 7, 2016 Share February 7, 2016 It's time to agree to disagree, and move on please. 3 Link to comment
Meredith Quill February 7, 2016 Share February 7, 2016 Mod Note: Late to the game here but having read through the whole thread I now feel it is worth stating that book talk should not take place within the episode topics. I have spoiler tagged any I've found, if I have missed any please let me know. For further information please see the pinned topic in the forum regarding book talk. Thanks. Link to comment
Jordan27 February 7, 2016 Share February 7, 2016 It was better than I thought it would be. The trailers made it look like Magic 90210, but it wasn't. I'll go for a second episode. Link to comment
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