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During the course of the production, we listened to the players intently, investigated responsibly and responded accordingly

“The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”

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1 hour ago, Eolivet said:

I get that, to a point, but increased publicity would usually lead to people becoming curious about a show and then checking it out -- thus leading to increased ratings or visibility.

But I can't feasibly see anyone, anywhere ... ever going, "Wait, Survivor had someone sexually harassing women? And people were mad at the show for how they handled it? You know, I think I might check that out."

I think the goal is the opposite: to get people to stop talking about this, to make this go away and most importantly, to keep existing viewers (versus attracting new ones as a result of publicity). And what they really hope is that viewers will confine their anger to this season, not direct it towards the franchise as a whole. Although now that super-early premiere date for Survivor 40 sure makes a lot more sense.

I think it's both.  After last season, and what Julia said happened (and was virtually ignored by producers), I think Survivor went into this season intending to showcase any serious issue or moment that came up.  Julia wasn't just complaining about someone saying the N-word, she also complained about the editing, and the lack of character development, and we got more of that this season.  We saw emotional moments with Karishma talking about her husband, Elaine talking about what she's been through the last few months, conversations about racism, and of course sexism and sexual harassment.  Though I know some found it laughable that Survivor was suddenly trying to make itself a social justice warrior, but I guess that's ones opinion whether they think Survivor was milking certain moments or was being sincere in showing them. 

Anyway, back to Dan-I still believe TPTB didn't expect this to go the way it did.  They figured it would be water cooler talk, people would be enraged, it would prompt discussion (hell, it brought past contestants out of the woodwork, from the bitter to the 'this show is still on?'), and they would wrap it up in a neat little package and end the season with Jeff acting like the big hero at the reunion.  So I think they were looking forward to the publicity, however negative, but didn't expect it to the this negative.  Now they are ready for it to go away.  They probably figured that eventually canning Dan, even when he made it to day 36 and they virtually ignored what happened previously, was going to make people happy.  And it did, except it was also too little, too late.  

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After the number of Survivor reporters that showed integrity over this season (Josh Wigler chief among them, but Andy Denhart, Daniel Feinberg in the Hollywood Reporter, the Variety columnist, even the New York Times), how does Dalton Ross look himself in the mirror every day? Denhart said it best when he said Entertainment Weekly (through Ross) functioned as "Survivor state media."

I lost a lot of respect for him, to allow himself to be used to parrot the party line like that. Without EW functioning as Survivor Pravda, the show wouldn't have had anyone to get their side out there on a consistent basis. But I guess network access was more important than personal integrity.

If anyone deserves the "sold out your [morals] for a stack of greenbacks" speech, it's Dalton Ross.

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I’ll be interested in reading what others post about Dalton Ross.  With EW being his employer, I doubt that he has much choice in what is included in his articles and what is not. 

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It would almost seem that with their straightforward comment about a player's unacceptable behavior, they're sending a message to Dan:  "Go ahead and sue us.  We have video (including outtakes) of your behavior.  We'll let a jury decide.  We're not scared."

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From the People article:  At one point, Spilo allegedly touched the female crew member’s leg. According to multiple sources, he insisted that the contact was inadvertent and accidental as he lost his balance while trying to get into the boat.

If they hadn't removed him for harassment they might have needed to remove him for medical reasons - I mean the guy sure "losses his balance" a lot.  If it's not on purpose there must be something medically wrong with him.  But it's pretty handy how every time it happens there's a pretty girl right there to grab on to so he doesn't fall.

Disclaimer; yes that was sarcasm and no I'm not making fun of what happened.  Just thinking how Dan is pretty one note; he has the "It wasn't intentional", the "You misunderstood" and the "IF I made anyone uncomfortable" excuse trifecta down pat.  

Whatever media attention the reunion gets tomorrow tonight it's going to be an interesting tightrope walk to watch them balance between addressing it because they have to, not saying anything that would get them in trouble legally and not letting it overshadow the reunion show completely.

Edited by sigmaforce86 · Reason: fixed tomorrow to tonight because I DO know what day it is!
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Isn't it curious that both Dan and CBS/Survivor address the issue on the same day? Dan finally apologizes now (although he knew he wasn't accepted at the reunion since the merge episode) and the production finally makes it known that they understand their mistakes, in a way apologizing, and that they will include new rules from now on. Could this mean that there is a setlement there and both parties accept not to talk about this matter anymore and this is why the reunion will be pre-recorded? 3-4 days earlier Dan was caught by a paparazzi and when he was asked to apologize he said "I apologized on the show". What changed since then and he felt the need to publicly apologize again? Something doesn't sit right with me and it seems that also Kellee who is one of the victims here was caught off guard by this. I think there are things that only the producers and Dan know, not even the rest of the players, and this fact makes me feel we as the audience are being used for numbers. They don't care to get the truth out there, they are only interested in doing things the way their lawyers have consulted them to do. So frustrating.

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I'm curious how the episode will start tonight.  Will we get the aftermath of what happened to Dan, or will they go straight to a challenge or something else non-Dan related?

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21 minutes ago, LadyChatts said:

I'm curious how the episode will start tonight.  Will we get the aftermath of what happened to Dan, or will they go straight to a challenge or something else non-Dan related?

I think the Dan thing has already been addressed in the last episode... it probably (IMO) not be addressed again until the reunion.

Edited by DEL901
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They'd better not try and do Probst's typical hyping up of the finale with the audience or I may throw something at the screen.

My pie-in-the-sky dream for the reunion (if we can't have contestants and victims of sexual assault shame Probst and the network for an hour) is to let the contestants talk. That Probst shuts his piehole and listens -- to Kellee, to Janet, to Molly, to Jamal, even to Missy and Elizabeth. And that he doesn't even dare to insinuate that the show handled this properly or defend their actions. Just keeping his trap shut and silently accepting responsibility would be a start.

I hope Probst realizes how tone-deaf and insensitive he looks if he tries to make others' pain into a "teaching moment." Because the only people who need a teaching moment is Survivor production: on how not to expose themselves to lawsuits and freaking take women seriously the next time. But you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, as my poli-sci professor used to say.

I don't need them to admit wrongdoing (though they should, but I get why they can't) or apologize. But I do need them to not pretend they did everything right, like that arrogant statement they released about "listening responsibly" and "taking appropriate action." No. They did neither. So the next best thing they can do is shut up and listen.

But I know that probably won't happen.

Edited by Eolivet
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5 hours ago, Eolivet said:

They'd better not try and do Probst's typical hyping up of the finale with the audience or I may throw something at the screen.

My pie-in-the-sky dream for the reunion (if we can't have contestants and victims of sexual assault shame Probst and the network for an hour) is to let the contestants talk. That Probst shuts his piehole and listens -- to Kellee, to Janet, to Molly, to Jamal, even to Missy and Elizabeth. And that he doesn't even dare to insinuate that the show handled this properly or defend their actions. Just keeping his trap shut and silently accepting responsibility would be a start.

I hope Probst realizes how tone-deaf and insensitive he looks if he tries to make others' pain into a "teaching moment." Because the only people who need a teaching moment is Survivor production: on how not to expose themselves to lawsuits and freaking take women seriously the next time. But you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, as my poli-sci professor used to say.

I don't need them to admit wrongdoing (though they should, but I get why they can't) or apologize. But I do need them to not pretend they did everything right, like that arrogant statement they released about "listening responsibly" and "taking appropriate action." No. They did neither. So the next best thing they can do is shut up and listen.

But I know that probably won't happen.

Elizabeth (and Jack, who she is dating) won't be at the reunion. I think she's trying to pretend that she was never on Survivor.

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Noura talk about Dan.

 

“I think the story will unfold. I love Dan. He is an amazing man. I’m gonna tell you the truth. He’s an amazing man with a good heart, and we’re all different. I was in yoga today and the instructor said, “Raise your hand if you don’t want to be touched.” Some people like me are like “yes give me the adjustments, I love it” Some people are like “please don’t touch me.” That’s how we are in life. Dan is this way, and this is Kellee this way. And they’re just very on the opposite ends of the spectrum. And you gotta respect the different ways.”

 

 

Edited by LanceM
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14 minutes ago, LanceM said:

Noura talk about Dan.

 

“I think the story will unfold. I love Dan. He is an amazing man. I’m gonna tell you the truth. He’s an amazing man with a good heart, and we’re all different. I was in yoga today and the instructor said, “Raise your hand if you don’t want to be touched.” Some people like me are like “yes give me the adjustments, I love it” Some people are like “please don’t touch me.” That’s how we are in life. Dan is this way, and this is Kellee this way. And they’re just very on the opposite ends of the spectrum. And you gotta respect the different ways.”

 

 

Ugh.  She’s so clueless.   Clearly Dan didn’t respect the different ways.  

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I mean we had Janet saying she loved Dan on her instagram a few weeks back, and now we have Noura not only saying she loves Dan but saying the story will eventually unfold?  I hate to say but there might be some truth to what Varner was spewing the last week or so.

Edited by LanceM
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I just wonder if people are pissed for different reasons-that because it didn't happen to them, and they didn't see it unfold, it must not be true.  That the show used Dan as a scape goat and kicked him out over something that could have truly been an accident over something that was obviously more intentional.  And that they threw other people under the bus with the editing.  And, according to Aaron, just gave them a blanket statement about personal space and feeling safe, and made them all wonder what it was about.  People were getting death threats and hate mail over something that could have been handled so differently.  

 

Edited by LadyChatts
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7 hours ago, omophagia said:

Yup....he actually kinda makes sense. 
 

Thinking more about this last night...  it is one thing for the show to create a villain through editing for ratings, but I can’t believe that they would more or less accuse someone of criminal behaviour if they didn’t have proof. 

Edited by DEL901

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I started reading through Varner's blog, but after just watching Kellee, I just can't take him seriously.  He has every reason in the world to be bitter at Survivor and Probst, and it's not like he's ever being asked back.  In addition, Probst just said some of the cast knew it was Dan, but knew if he stayed in the game that they could drag him to the final 3 because he wouldn't win.  Varner seems more upset over what happened to Dan than to Kellee.  

As far as I'm concerned, you go on this show, your risking a lot.  In reality, there are few people who come out looking as good as Elaine and as bad as Dan, as most just fade into Survivor oblivion after the show is done.  Still, Kellee asked Dan to stop.  He knew what he was doing.  It's 2019.  If a woman doesn't want you touching her, you don't run after her down the beach like it's a joke and try to touch her hair.  Dan did this all to himself.  Maybe it was an accident with the producer, but they did then what they should have done in the first place.

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36 minutes ago, DEL901 said:

Yup....he actually kinda makes sense. 

The one part that doesn't make sense to me is about Missy's original comments to Kelly about Dan. From what we saw, it didn't appear that Missy was playing Kelly then because we saw Missy decide to target Kellee after Lauren told Missy that Kellee was playing her. Lauren told Missy how Kellee was faking all that bonding and Missy got pissed. Why would Missy get pissed if she had been faking then too? Obviously it could have been edited, but the footage doesn't make sense. I think Missy was genuine that Dan's touching bothered her, just not as much as it did Kellee.

I can't judge the incident with the crew member because we didn't see it and haven't heard from the people involved. If the crew member/producer doesn't think Dan slipped, then that seems more valid than what Jeff Varner thinks. If the producer wasn't bothered but CBS pulled him anyway, that would seem odd to me, but we don't know anything.

But I do agree with his point that what Dan did doesn't compare to Harvey Weinstein allegedly raping women.

 

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6 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

The one part that doesn't make sense to me is about Missy's original comments to Kelly about Dan. From what we saw, it didn't appear that Missy was playing Kelly then because we saw Missy decide to target Kellee after Lauren told Missy that Kellee was playing her. Lauren told Missy how Kellee was faking all that bonding and Missy got pissed. Why would Missy get pissed if she had been faking then too? Obviously it could have been edited, but the footage doesn't make sense. I think Missy was genuine that Dan's touching bothered her, just not as much as it did Kellee.

I can't judge the incident with the crew member because we didn't see it and haven't heard from the people involved. If the crew member/producer doesn't think Dan slipped, then that seems more valid than what Jeff Varner thinks. If the producer wasn't bothered but CBS pulled him anyway, that would seem odd to me, but we don't know anything.

But I do agree with his point that what Dan did doesn't compare to Harvey Weinstein allegedly raping women.

 

 

Yeah this is where he lost me. I understand editors can show scenes out of order and can manipulate quotes by splicing spund bytes together but in that scene with Lauren,  Missy literally asked why if Kellee was gunning for her did she just "spend a couple hours talking about reali life" stuff.  And it was clear Missy was having a hard time believing it.  

Edited by LanceM
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Kelle seeked legal counsel in order to ensure she was able to speak freely tonight,

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/18/business/media/survivor-finale.html

"For the first time, instead of airing live, the reunion special that is broadcast after the winner is announced was taped hours in advance. And as recently as a few days ago, a “Survivor” contestant who raised concerns about inappropriate touching, Kellee Kim, was not sure if she would be allowed to speak freely about her experience during the reunion.

The backlash over “Survivor,” which ranks as CBS’s highest-rated entertainment show for adults under 50, took place at a network that has been rocked by a societal reckoning on workplace sexual misconduct. The chief executive, a star anchor and several leading producers at the company have been felled since the start of the #MeToo movement.

Debra Katz, a lawyer representing Ms. Kim, contacted CBS late last week to express her concerns. After talks, the network said Ms. Kim would be permitted to speak freely at the reunion special.

In a statement this week, CBS also acknowledged that there were “things we could have done differently” this season, adding that “we are determined to do better going forward.” The network also announced a series of “Survivor” production changes “to ensure that the events that occurred this season are not repeated.”

In an interview on Wednesday evening, after the reunion taped, Ms. Kim said, “What’s really most important is that ‘Survivor’ and CBS took responsibility and apologized. These changes that I’ve been asking for for many, many months have been put into place, so no one else is going to have to go through something like this.”

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2 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

No, dipshit, it was NEVER ok to be an overly affectionate man. Women have NEVER wanted to be groped. Why is this such a difficult concept for some men to grasp? God, I hate him.

It's also not okay to be an overly affectionate woman. If it isn't very, very clearly consensual, keep your damn hands to yourself. A female friend of our neighbor is always all over men. Kissing their cheeks, playing footsie, grabbing their butts, ruffling their hair and so on. She's over 70 (and married) but age appears to be no obstacle. I know she had issues at work before she retired because of this. Both of my parents duck and run when they see her.

I mean, I'm a hugger, but there are ways to do that where you give the person an option. You kind of turn towards them and start to lift your arms a bit to each side and then pause to see if they reciprocate or put a hand out to shake or what. And you can always ask what someone prefers. I don't really understand people acting like, "OMG! I will never be able to have any contact with another human being without being sued!" 

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5 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

I cannot believe Jeff Varner used to be one of my favorites.   First of all, there is literally nothing new in his blog post. He’s simply recapping things from the show and referencing the same articles and rumors we’ve all heard. Secondly, he clearly has an agenda as he’s still trying to convince people that we were gaslighted and he really didn’t out Zeke or whatever he’s claiming. And finally, even if everything he said is true (and I guarantee you it isn’t), he’s still a piece of shit because of this:

 

 

No, dipshit, it was NEVER ok to be an overly affectionate man. Women have NEVER wanted to be groped. Why is this such a difficult concept for some men to grasp? God, I hate him.

Well, they're not looking at her as being a thinking, sentient being but as a vagina and boobs. Candy for the taking. 

He made a mistake, though, in thinking Kellee was some impressionable young starlet or starlet-wannabe who wouldn't say anything because He Is An Agent!!

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1 hour ago, ProfCrash said:

 He did make 5-6 women uncomfortable enough that there were regular comments about his touching people and how it was inappropriate. 

Yeah, that's something Varner conveniently skipped over in his recap of episodes 2-7, because I distinctly remember Missy and Elizabeth acting out how Dan was all over them in the shelter, and "oh, I didn't get touched last night, he found Janet and he was good." That's a coping mechanism. That's what you do when you're uncomfortable, you joke and minimize and say "it's fine, everything's fine, you know, it's fine."

As someone who's always believed that Missy and Elizabeth were as uncomfortable as Kellee and chose to express it and deal with it differently (and yes, use it as gameplay because production refused to do the right thing, and they had to work within the broken system's rules), this is why women don't speak up, Jeff Varner. Because when they do, like Kellee, they're accused of being outliers, and when someone takes back an accusation or pretends like it doesn't bother them in order to survive in the real world (or a game show), the man is automatically vindicated and exonerated because "See! See! Those other girls were okay with it! That makes it okay!"

I think Varner is lying to himself if he thinks this has ruined Dan. Show me a sexual harasser that has ever been "ruined" by his behavior becoming public. Weinstein raped women and is facing criminal charges. But sexual harassment gets a pass -- always has, always will (ever since Anita Hill, really).

Elizabeth got rumored death threats. Dan will be fine. Because Survivor really is the microcosm of society it's always claimed, just probably not in the way that it wanted to be.

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Personally I think Missy and Elizabeth were playing the game. They were competing. 

There is no way IMO they should hang their heads. Nor should they get death threats. This isn’t on them.  

 

 

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I agree that they shouldn't get death threats but they absolutely should hang their heads.  It doesn't mean that they're horrible people who deserve to be miserable and chastised forever, but what they did was shameful.  I believe that Elizabeth and Missy are good people who just used really poor judgment, so they don't deserve the violent threats at all, but yeah, they do deserve to feel at least a bit of shame every time they think about what they did.

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8 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

The fact that he stopped before raping someone is not something I applaud.

Agree with you.  It keeps being pointed out that "Dan didn't rape anybody".  This is not a bar for behaviour.  Nobody claimed he did.  It's not even relevant.  It's just stating something like, "The sky is blue" and "People fear clowns".

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Six weeks of episodes go by, and it’s clear that Dan has listened.  The tribes have swapped, and Dan and Kellee have been separated, but we do not see inappropriate touching of anyone. We do not see Kellee or anyone complaining about touching.

Of course we don't see Kellee complaining about touching. They've been seperated as just stated in the previous sentence The first day they're on the same beach, he's back to touching her!!! And it's clear Dan has not listened by the way the women on his new beach were reenacting his shelter behavior. I feel gaslighted by this blogpost.

Tommy mentioned in his interview with Rob C. that one night after he made too many people laugh he spent all night worrying he'd done too much to make himself likeable and changed his behavior the next day. There's nothing but time on the island to think, reflect, worry, examine your behavior,...Yet after that conversation with Kellee in episode 1, Dan didn't change his behavior at all. That's saying something. That makes me wonder what he does in the real world in a power position with young women licking his boots for an opportunity if this is what he does on a televised gameshow after someone points out his behavior.

I'm not an idiot. I know things get edited and spliced. They used a lot of the same footage in the Touchy Dan montage. They tried to make themselves look good by embellishing the talk with the contestants and making it look like Kellee was involved in the conversation about whether or not she should speak from the jury. Things like that. Covering their ass basically. But the facts are clear. Kellee was uncomfortable. She made that clear. He kept doing it. There's the door. I'm sure if we didn't live in the #metoo era this could have slid by like nothing happened and the contestants clearly didn't think much of it at Ponderosa or expect this viewer reaction. Survivor incidents in the past have gone further than touching hair and nothing was done so this was a long time coming.

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18 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

No, dipshit, it was NEVER ok to be an overly affectionate man. Women have NEVER wanted to be groped. Why is this such a difficult concept for some men to grasp? God, I hate him.

Exactly! I actually heard someone say how sad it was that "men can't be men" anymore. If you think being a man means you can grope women whenever you want, then you need to rethink your definition of man.

15 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

 

The fact that he stopped before raping someone is not something I applaud.

I wasn't saying it is something to applaud, I was just pointing out that there are scales of assholes. A rapist deserves to go to jail for years. Someone who touches women inappropriately deserves to lose their job/get kick off Survivor. But not every inappropriate action is the same. Pointing that out isn't a compliment to Dan, it is just an observation.

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No one claimed all actions are the same though.

This all just feels like (Matt) Damonsplaining.  

Quote

In another series of interviews during December 2017, Damon advocated for a "spectrum of behavior" analysis[143][144][145][146] of sexual misconduct cases, noting that some are more serious than others.[147][145][146] The comment caused offense to prominent members of the #MeToo movement[147][148] and the public for being tone-deaf in "understand[ing] what abuse is like".[148][147] On January 17, 2018, Damon apologized on The Today Show for his social commentary stating: "I should get in the back seat and close my mouth for a while."[149]

 

Edited by Ms Blue Jay
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10 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

No one claimed all actions are the same though.

This all just feels like (Matt) Damonsplaining.  

 

I feel like some people are acting like all actions are the same. Not necessarily here, just general fan response on the internet. That was Varner brought it up.

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If I'm being outed on national tv for touching (you know tribal is going to be aired if nothing else) and then you get ejected from the game for touching, 

you would, minutes later after being told you are getting ejected, get on the boat......fake fall just to touch a womens thigh.  Does that make sense?   Even a toucher can have an accident. Just saying. 

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19 minutes ago, marys1000 said:

If I'm being outed on national tv for touching (you know tribal is going to be aired if nothing else) and then you get ejected from the game for touching, 

you would, minutes later after being told you are getting ejected, get on the boat......fake fall just to touch a womens thigh.  Does that make sense?   Even a toucher can have an accident. Just saying. 

I think that Dan doesn't really believe that his touching was a problem. He feels fine using other people's bodies if he has, what he believes, is a legit reason: Warmth, demonstration aid, love language expression, fall stopper. Frankly, if I were him, I'd have taken the fall at that point. But I would also not continue to touch someone who asked me to stop, so therein lies the difference I guess. 

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31 minutes ago, marys1000 said:

If I'm being outed on national tv for touching (you know tribal is going to be aired if nothing else) and then you get ejected from the game for touching, 

you would, minutes later after being told you are getting ejected, get on the boat......fake fall just to touch a womens thigh.  Does that make sense?   Even a toucher can have an accident. Just saying. 

Also your sequencing is wrong.  He didn’t touch her thigh “minutes after being told” he was getting ejected.  He touched it before, and THEN, because of that, was ejected.

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22 hours ago, Jel said:

He feels fine using other people's women's bodies if he has, what he believes, is a legit reason: Warmth, demonstration aid, love language expression, fall stopper. 

FTFY.

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On 12/19/2019 at 4:35 PM, CloudySky said:

I feel gaslighted by this blogpost.

Yes, as soon as Varner started telling us that Dan's fondling and groping was his "love language" I started getting that blurry, confused, did I hear that right feeling that signals gaslighting.

Another one of Varner's attempts to make us doubt our own observations is, "Janet loves Dan!" as some sort of evidence that he's a good guy.  It's Kellee's opinion that matters here.  

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Varner also conveniently leaves out the "Yeah, SNUFF that torch!" angry comment when Kellee was voted out--we don't know if he was feeling that angry mainly about these claims, or just in general, but it certainly wasn't symptomatic of someone who is "oh so caring and would never hurt anyone blah blah blah" which he had just gone on about at length at tribal council.  

 

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