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On 10/5/2020 at 9:38 AM, lasu said:

I just finished The Duel over the weekend, and holy shit, they dropped what to me was a bombshell in the last few minutes of the reunion.  Apparently, early on, they all got drunk as shit and Kenny passed out cold, and Big E took his own penis and balls and rubbed it them over Kenny's face.  Um, WHAT?  Ok, look, I've heard of such dumb ass behavior before from guys and I have never understood it.  You take YOUR dick out and rub it on another dude's face, and the other dude is supposed to be the humiliated one?  Regardless, let's be clear, rubbing your genitals on an unconscious person's face is sexual assault.  And I have been saying for as long as I can remember that we need to take sexual assault on males more seriously (like stop high fiving male teens who are raped by female teachers).  But this case makes it so fucking clear - imagine if MTV had taken this really seriously?  Do you think that MAYBE, just maybe, if MTV had taken this seriously, or if the cast had, if ANYONE took it as anything other than a gross joke, do you think that MAYBE it would have had an influence on Kenny's future behavior?

This show hold up really well, and really poorly at the same time.  Actually, the vast majority of the time, it seems almost timeless.  It's not like The Real World where they are discussing current events or serious timely issues.  There's no tv, they don't listen to music, it's just drunken hook ups and challenges, so there is very little to date it.  The clothes give a little away, but the main thing that dates it is the prizes given at challenges.  The only thing that is truly jarring is, like someone else mentioned above, is so much of the shit that comes out of people's mouths - even Coral saying something about Ev's penis.  I can't imagine the fall out today if Robin questioned Aneesa on is she Jewish, black, pick something, why are you always something different?  

It's really sad watching how much B/M and MTV let things go, and it's amazing that as awful as what happened to Tonya was, it wasn't actually something much worse.  They truly are so culpable for what happened to her, because they did NOTHING to try to stop the toxic sexism and just trash environment going on. Like, drunkenly ripping people's clothes off was funny!  It's just a joke!  Just keep the alcohol flowing and the camera rolling, nothing else matters.  They repetitively asked people back they shouldn't have.  CT shouldn't have been asked back after he punched Davis, and he sure as shit should have been banned for life after his stalking of Adam.  I love CT, and I love his redemption arc as must as the next girl, but it shouldn't have happened, it was near cruel to do put Adam in that situation.  It simply shouldn't have happened.  Just like it they took what happened to Kenny seriously, what happened to Tonya might have never happened.

I finished the reunion and felt the same way. I remember guys in my husband's fraternity "tea bagging" guys who passed out and feeling mildly uncomfortable with it 17 years ago, but looking back on stuff like this now...yikes. It's hard to watch everyone on stage laughing so hard at what E did. 

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On 8/3/2020 at 3:21 PM, Zima said:

Cara is very pretty, but in my opinion, Kina is prettier.  I do think you're right though. Cara is confident and sexy without really trying, and that was probably a bit off-putting to some women who weren't as secure in themselves.  

That's interesting about Beth.  Another interesting thing was that she was considered FAT in those days, whereas now, her body type is sort of ideal (the big butt and thighs). 

Kina has an extremely "hard" look to her. She's very attractive, but in angular sort of way that made me think that if you'd told me she was either 22 or a very fit 45 year old, I'd have believed you with no problem. I even looked up a current photo just to confirm that she looks exactly the same now as she did 10-12 years ago and yep. 

The comparison between her and Cara is a bit like Julie Bowen and Sofia Vergara on Modern Family. Julie Bowen is certainly an attractive woman and better looking than most, but put her up next to Sofia's look and her angular, hard face doesn't look as appealing. Cara obviously doesn't have Sofia's insane figure,* but she has the same soft prettiness.

*Completely shallow observation, but seeing Cara in a bikini made me wonder what her Playboy photos could possibly look like, she has no boobs whatsoever.

And yes, the Beth-o-saurus, Big Beth, she's a whole lotta woman, 'she weighs twice as much as whoever' comments were jarring. Sure, she was bigger than most of the teeny-tiny twig 20 year olds on the show, but they acted like she belonged on My 600-lb Life.

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I feel guilty for not liking Diem... but yeah, I didn't like her that much.  I felt like she just expected everything because, which is understandable... but I think minus the obvious, I don't think I would have liked her at all.  I had forgotten that she was on a whole season without CT.

Same. I'd ordinarily really roll my eyes with the whole fairytale romance, you can't kiss me until this perfect moment stuff, but knowing how little time she ended up having left on earth after this challenge, I could overlook it more than I would have with anyone else. And CT was there with her at the end, so he did turn out to be an important part of her life and not just another random showmance.

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I was never a fan of Diem. It sucks she got cancer, and that scene between her and CT on the top of mountain where he takes off her wig and they kiss definitely made me sob like a baby, but I still didn't like her nor her and CT's relationship.

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On 8/11/2020 at 12:06 PM, Zima said:

Ah yes, the elimination round where a number of contestants got DQed for ripping the flag instead of unclipping it. How frustrating. CT's behavior after being eliminated was so gross. 

I liked that loophole, since so many elimination challenges gave advantages to the bigger/heavier person.

 

On 10/26/2020 at 7:56 PM, Jillibean said:

Regardless, Evan acting like he was some sort of protector of Tonya, as though she were cognitively impaired or a small child, is disturbing on many levels.

That infuriated me. He, Kenny, and Johnny were the ONLY ones who bullied Tonya (Susie and Veronica did not like her and wouldn't defend her, but neither were they going out of their way to torment her). Yet after her breakdown, Evan pulls everyone in and lectures them all on how "they" had to stop. Wes was like, um, I haven't bullied Tonya. Syrus hasn't bullied Tonya. Cohutta hasn't bullied Tonya. You and your cohorts are the only ones who have. And Evan rolled his eyes like Wes was just being petulant, but he was absolutely right. Evan pushed and pushed, Veronica inadvertently was the straw that broke the camel's back, and the guys vilified  Veronica and acted like they were the saviors sweeping in. It was gross.

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On 8/11/2020 at 12:12 PM, forevertwentynine said:

I feel guilty for not liking Diem... but yeah, I didn't like her that much.  I felt like she just expected everything because, which is understandable... but I think minus the obvious, I don't think I would have liked her at all. 

I don't think she was a bad person, but she was prone to throwing tantrums when she didn't get her way (she did it on Fresh Meat, she did it on the Duel, she did it on Rivals*, and she did it on the first battle of the exes I think), and she certainly could be a shit stirrer. And this is minor, but there was one episode (I think Ruins) where she went up against Tonya for an elimination and lost. The minute the episode aired, Diem was on her blog squawking that she lost ON PURPOSE and she had to go home for another reason, and Tonya certainly did not beat her at her full potential.

 

*I'll cut her a little slack on Rivals because she said after the season was over the medication she was on caused massive mood swings which was confirmed by several people on the boards as being accurate.

 

I have been able to find most of the older seasons on Youtube, which is really cool because you get the original songs and the pop ups for late 90s shows, and I believe everything after Fresh Meat is available on some platform, but Inferno 3 has long been elusive. Daily Motion uploaded episodes 1-4 but that's the most I've ever found.

 

I forgot how much I hate Danny (Austin). Just watched the battering ram eppy and the opposing team wins, and Danny stomps off and bitches that his team lost because "the girls on the other team listen to the guys and the girls on our team don't". Like it's just a given that guys are smarter and the only way girls can be useful is to just accept whatever strategy the big strong men say and then cooperate fully.

Edited by Tatum
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1 hour ago, Tatum said:

I liked that loophole, since so many elimination challenges gave advantages to the bigger/heavier person.

 

That infuriated me. He, Kenny, and Johnny were the ONLY ones who bullied Tonya (Susie and Veronica did not like her and wouldn't defend her, but neither were they going out of their way to torment her). Yet after her breakdown, Evan pulls everyone in and lectures them all on how "they" had to stop. Wes was like, um, I haven't bullied Tonya. Syrus hasn't bullied Tonya. Cohutta hasn't bullied Tonya. You and your cohorts are the only ones who have. And Evan rolled his eyes like Wes was just being petulant, but he was absolutely right. Evan pushed and pushed, Veronica inadvertently was the straw that broke the camel's back, and the guys vilified  Veronica and acted like they were the saviors sweeping in. It was gross.

The thing with the guys, especially Kenny and Evan, is that the relationship they had with Tonya was really troubling. (I’m not including Johnny because I don’t think Tonya particularly liked him.) Tonya adored those morons and was constantly engaging with them and trying to win them over. As the season was airing, and people were commenting on how godawful they were to her, she passionately defended them and said Kenny and Evan were like her brothers, and she loves them and treasures them, and viewers just don’t understand that the way they behave is how they show their love. I believe more than one person correctly suspected that she had crushes on both. It was actually a very similar dynamic between Kenny and Sarah. Definite undertones, if not overt overtones, of an abusive relationship. Not a coincidence to me that both Tonya and Sarah had BEEN in abusive relationships before. It was only later, after Tonya was told about the incident, that she saw what they were really like. 

Johnny was terrible to Tonya but I don’t think she had a thing for him and it seems like the two of them just yelled at each other a lot. I remember one daily where he was talking to someone else and she just walked over and smacked him for no apparent reason. He should have pulled his (verbal) punches because she was clearly mentally ill, but I don’t think he cared much about that, and/or wasn’t smart enough to understand that she was truly not okay. 

But Susie and Veronica sucked too. They both treated Tonya very badly and used her clear alcoholism and mental health problems to justify their feelings about her. Susie made up “I hate Tonya because.” Veronica was awful to her on Inferno 2, a fact for which she still refuses to take accountability years later, and apparently brought up her previous rape during that fight with her that prompted Evan’s exercise in hypocrisy  The fact that the boys were basically evil incarnate makes the girls look better by comparison and I’m not sure they really deserve that. 

Evan’s speech, to me, is basically the equivalent of two five year olds both joking around in a China shop, then one pushes the other into a shelf and, when everything breaks, says “Look what you did!” He’s odious and I’m glad Wes called him out.

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54 minutes ago, Jillibean said:

The thing with the guys, especially Kenny and Evan, is that the relationship they had with Tonya was really troubling. (I’m not including Johnny because I don’t think Tonya particularly liked him.) Tonya adored those morons and was constantly engaging with them and trying to win them over. As the season was airing, and people were commenting on how godawful they were to her, she passionately defended them and said Kenny and Evan were like her brothers, and she loves them and treasures them, and viewers just don’t understand that the way they behave is how they show their love. I believe more than one person correctly suspected that she had crushes on both. It was actually a very similar dynamic between Kenny and Sarah. Definite undertones, if not overt overtones, of an abusive relationship. Not a coincidence to me that both Tonya and Sarah had BEEN in abusive relationships before. It was only later, after Tonya was told about the incident, that she saw what they were really like.

Kenny was pretty awful to Tonya during The Island as well. I always wondered what was up with that. Someone posting on TWOP who had ties to production/filming (unverified, but all their insider information seemed very plausible) said that Kenny absolutely hated Tonya and no one really knew why. I think Tonya was desperate for approval from the in crowd, and desperate to believe they tormented her to show their affection.

 

Susie and Veronica were both inexcusably cruel to Tonya on earlier seasons, but it seemed like both women were prepared to give Tonya a wide berth this time around. I think Susie in particular did not care for how many people thought she was a bitch after seeing her on Inferno 3. Which she undoubtedly was. But Evan and Kenny were terrible to her. Nonstop mocking and humiliation and no one other than Wes was willing to say anything about that. I remember Hollywood Kim going on record as saying after that experience she would never do another challenge again.

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3 hours ago, Tatum said:

I have been able to find most of the older seasons on Youtube, which is really cool because you get the original songs and the pop ups for late 90s shows, and I believe everything after Fresh Meat is available on some platform, but Inferno 3 has long been elusive. Daily Motion uploaded episodes 1-4 but that's the most I've ever found.

If you want to watch The Inferno III, there is a subreddit about the season, and someone on there was kind enough to send me the episodes that they had on their computer. I suggest going there and posting that you would like that person to forward the eps to you. 

How did you find the old seasons on YouTube? I've seen Inferno I, but the other seasons just had a few eps here and there that I've managed to find.

1 hour ago, Tatum said:

Susie and Veronica were both inexcusably cruel to Tonya on earlier seasons, but it seemed like both women were prepared to give Tonya a wide berth this time around. I think Susie in particular did not care for how many people thought she was a bitch after seeing her on Inferno 3. Which she undoubtedly was. But Evan and Kenny were terrible to her. Nonstop mocking and humiliation and no one other than Wes was willing to say anything about that. I remember Hollywood Kim going on record as saying after that experience she would never do another challenge again.

Hollywood Kim was a slut-shaming bitch on her RW season, so that kind of surprises me.  What she saw on The Ruins re: Tonya must have been absolutely heinous for her to react in that way. 

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29 minutes ago, Zima said:

If you want to watch The Inferno III, there is a subreddit about the season, and someone on there was kind enough to send me the episodes that they had on their computer. I suggest going there and posting that you would like that person to forward the eps to you. 

How did you find the old seasons on YouTube? I've seen Inferno I, but the other seasons just had a few eps here and there that I've managed to find.

Hollywood Kim was a slut-shaming bitch on her RW season, so that kind of surprises me.  What she saw on The Ruins re: Tonya must have been absolutely heinous for her to react in that way. 

There is a lot of speculation that Kim is the one who told Tonya what happened (hearing it secondhand months after it happened) which could be true, but I believe most of her on record complaints were prompted by how the girls in general were treated by the boys, not anything specific to Tonya. JEK make no bones about the fact that they consider the women on the show to be useful only for sex and entertainment when one of them gets pissed off. If any girl dare speak up for herself or another woman, she's immediately called a dumb bitch or a retard and told to shut up. Any guy that tries to defend them is almost immediately shunned as well. Most of the guys that try and defend the girls are on the outside anyways. Even Derrick gave up trying to reason with them, as he was generally a fringe member of the alliance anyways and needed these guys for the final mission.

You'd think the women on the show would have banded together but instead they all turned on each other in order to be the Cool Girl that "gets it" and was allowed into the JEK inner circle. But other than Susie (damn that bitch does play a smart game), being the girl allowed in to JEK's world never did any girl much good (just ask Paula, Johanna, Ibis, Sarah, Camilla, and Nany).

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Just randomly saw something from Reddit in which someone summarized a podcast Kenny did. The reddit post was two years ago; not sure when the podcast was. The only items I thought were noteworthy is that Kenny still hates Wes, sees Susie with some regularity, does not watch any Challenge seasons, saw Evelyn fairly recently (from the date of the podcast) and she ignored him/was short to him, and the best part: considers the Tonya allegations to be a cloud that forever follows him and he has had trouble getting jobs and dates because of it. In our victim blaming and rapist apologist culture, I would like to personally high five whatever woman heard this story, believed the victim, and declined a date with Mr. Beautiful over it.

 

ETA: I forgot, and this was pretty interesting, although maybe common knowledge here. Evan and Johnny were both good friends of Kenny's but they did not like each other. They would grudgingly work together but things were strained.

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I watched the Duel on Netflix, and I forgot how satisfying it was to see Svetlana and Aneesa pick off the other women after they kept getting thrown in each week. 

I never liked Kina, and I had also forgotten how dramatic she acted when she lost.

 

 

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16 hours ago, Jess14 said:

I watched the Duel on Netflix, and I forgot how satisfying it was to see Svetlana and Aneesa pick off the other women after they kept getting thrown in each week. 

I never liked Kina, and I had also forgotten how dramatic she acted when she lost.

 

 

Oh god.

 

"It's so unfair, because I have won...if I had beaten my opponent".

 

Yeah, that's usually how it works Kina.

 

(OK, that's not exactly what she said. She said her body gave out when her heart and her mind were set on continuing. So I guess by her logic I should consider myself an Olympic gymnast because it's only my body that can't do a backflip- my heart totally could). 

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Re-watching The Duel and yeah, I hated Diem from the jump. 

Hate to say it with what she battled, but she was an entitled brat. How she turned on Aneesa for daring to send her into the duel once (when everyone else had already been in twice) was awful, & I was never an Aneesa fan. 

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1 hour ago, snarts said:

Re-watching The Duel and yeah, I hated Diem from the jump. 

Hate to say it with what she battled, but she was an entitled brat. How she turned on Aneesa for daring to send her into the duel once (when everyone else had already been in twice) was awful, & I was never an Aneesa fan. 

She ALWAYS did that. Even CT pointed out that her little tantrums were par for the course when she didn't get her way.

 

Although I will say it was pretty of stupid of Aneesa to say she wouldn't send Diem in. Aneesa later clarified she said it because she thought Diem would win, which made no sense because if Diem won, Aneesa couldn't have sent her in. It was a dumb thing to say. Regardless, it's not like Diem did anything for Aneesa or made any kind of deal with her so for Diem to whine that Aneesa had no "integrity" was pretty stupid also. It's not like they had a quid pro quo deal and Aneesa reneged after Diem did her part.  In Diem's world, I guess, one ill advised comment in the heat of the moment trumps an established friendship with someone else.

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19 hours ago, Tatum said:

She ALWAYS did that. Even CT pointed out that her little tantrums were par for the course when she didn't get her way.

 

Although I will say it was pretty of stupid of Aneesa to say she wouldn't send Diem in. Aneesa later clarified she said it because she thought Diem would win, which made no sense because if Diem won, Aneesa couldn't have sent her in. It was a dumb thing to say. Regardless, it's not like Diem did anything for Aneesa or made any kind of deal with her so for Diem to whine that Aneesa had no "integrity" was pretty stupid also. It's not like they had a quid pro quo deal and Aneesa reneged after Diem did her part.  In Diem's world, I guess, one ill advised comment in the heat of the moment trumps an established friendship with someone else.

Yeah, Aneesa was dumb to tell her that. It made no sense at all. However, it was at the end of the Challenge, and yet, Diem seemed to think she was entitled to make it to the end. Diem also had no reason to believe that Aneesa would turn on Svetlana, who had been her only female ally in the game. The fact that Diem was also upset that Evan had pulled CT in to the Duel the week before just confirmed for me that it was all about entitlement, not any sincere belief that Aneesa betrayed her.

With that said, I found Diem to be more likable in some of the later Challenges (if I’m remembering correctly). 

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I feel so awful, because I am yet another person who never liked Diem.  I think she was more about being The Nice Girl than anything else.  That said, I was absolutely heartbroken when she died.  I disliked the reality show persona Diem; there also was a real person (whose name was Denise Michelle, for crying out loud) who truly went through a lot and died far too young.

This isn't really fair, and I'm not trying to project onto Diem, but after rewatching her seasons recently, I couldn't help but wonder if she had truly known how little time she had left, would she have chosen CT over career?  I'm not at all saying she made the wrong decision - it was her life and her choices and I honestly hope she made the right ones for herself.  But I've always wondered if she would have made the same choices if she had known.  

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On 1/11/2021 at 10:04 AM, lasu said:

This isn't really fair, and I'm not trying to project onto Diem, but after rewatching her seasons recently, I couldn't help but wonder if she had truly known how little time she had left, would she have chosen CT over career?  I'm not at all saying she made the wrong decision - it was her life and her choices and I honestly hope she made the right ones for herself.  But I've always wondered if she would have made the same choices if she had known.  

I’ve wondered that too. However, I think there were other issues in their relationship, and CT obviously went through a really rough period for a while. By the time they reunited he seemed to be more mature and ready to be a better partner to her. It’s truly tragic how little time they had left at the point they came back together. 

I rewatched a lot of seasons with my sister over the summer, and I sobbed at Diem’s last episode the same way I did when I watched it originally. Like others here, I didn’t always like her on the show. I thought she was attention-seeking, entitled, and yes, bratty. It certainly didn’t escape my notice that she had a meltdown every time she was voted into elimination (except in the Ruins when she threw it because she had to leave and, I think, in the Duel 2). She attributed a lot of her emotional outbursts on Rivals 2 to menopause, but the cast seemed to agree that she had sort of always been like that. But even when I didn’t care for her, I was always awed by her strength and courage in everything she had dealt with, and in sharing it, making her story accessible to people and educating people. She was a truly amazing person, and the fact is she was a person, a human with flaws and inconsistencies who sometimes made me want to reach through the screen and shake her a bit. And honestly, I think that just makes me cherish her memory and miss her even more.

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On 1/10/2021 at 1:11 PM, Tatum said:

She ALWAYS did that. Even CT pointed out that her little tantrums were par for the course when she didn't get her way.

Although I will say it was pretty of stupid of Aneesa to say she wouldn't send Diem in. Aneesa later clarified she said it because she thought Diem would win, which made no sense because if Diem won, Aneesa couldn't have sent her in. It was a dumb thing to say. Regardless, it's not like Diem did anything for Aneesa or made any kind of deal with her so for Diem to whine that Aneesa had no "integrity" was pretty stupid also. It's not like they had a quid pro quo deal and Aneesa reneged after Diem did her part.  In Diem's world, I guess, one ill advised comment in the heat of the moment trumps an established friendship with someone else.

In fairness though, why wouldn't she be confused and upset when Aneesa went out of her way to assure her that she wasn't going in, only to turn around to put her in. Had Aneesa just kept her mouth shut, Diem wouldn't have had any reason to blame her for sticking with her established friendships. 

And Aneesa has never dealt with arguments well, even when she's clearly in the wrong, she blows up and tries to make the person pointing out her mistake into the bad guy. This goes all the way back to the Chicago season where she was a slob around the house and lost the car keys, but lost her mind when she was held accountable for it. 

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Oh god.

"It's so unfair, because I have won...if I had beaten my opponent".

Yeah, that's usually how it works Kina.

(OK, that's not exactly what she said. She said her body gave out when her heart and her mind were set on continuing. So I guess by her logic I should consider myself an Olympic gymnast because it's only my body that can't do a backflip- my heart totally could). 

 

That was hilarious. Her foot "betrayed" her champion's heart and warrior's spirit. At least she lost to Svetlana so we didn't have to hear a repeat of her faux-pouty "too bad I'm so little" speech from earlier in the season when she was putting down Aneesa or Beth or whoever.

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I’ve wondered that too. However, I think there were other issues in their relationship, and CT obviously went through a really rough period for a while. By the time they reunited he seemed to be more mature and ready to be a better partner to her. It’s truly tragic how little time they had left at the point they came back together. 

I rewatched a lot of seasons with my sister over the summer, and I sobbed at Diem’s last episode the same way I did when I watched it originally. Like others here, I didn’t always like her on the show. I thought she was attention-seeking, entitled, and yes, bratty. It certainly didn’t escape my notice that she had a meltdown every time she was voted into elimination (except in the Ruins when she threw it because she had to leave and, I think, in the Duel 2). She attributed a lot of her emotional outbursts on Rivals 2 to menopause, but the cast seemed to agree that she had sort of always been like that. But even when I didn’t care for her, I was always awed by her strength and courage in everything she had dealt with, and in sharing it, making her story accessible to people and educating people. She was a truly amazing person, and the fact is she was a person, a human with flaws and inconsistencies who sometimes made me want to reach through the screen and shake her a bit. And honestly, I think that just makes me cherish her memory and miss her even more.

 

CT seems like a lot at the best of times and the time around his brother's murder were definitely not the best of times, so I'm sure that had some effect on the choices made at the time. The edits on these shows tend to show him in a light that I suspect glosses over a lot of his problematic characteristics in favor of highlighting his extreme physicality and unexpected moments of sensitivity, but most cast members seem to think he's on the crazy side.

I finally watched Fresh Meat for the first time and it was incredibly sad to see Diem in those early days of diagnosis and especially the episode where she's eliminated and cries about what's waiting for her at home now that the distraction of the challenge was over. Knowing that it wasn't something she could treat and get past is just so sad.

Also, she really did have gorgeous hair, I had only ever seen her with the wigs and the short hair. 

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11 minutes ago, ljenkins782 said:

In fairness though, why wouldn't she be confused and upset when Aneesa went out of her way to assure her that she wasn't going in, only to turn around to put her in. Had Aneesa just kept her mouth shut, Diem wouldn't have had any reason to blame her for sticking with her established friendships.

Right, it was an incredibly stupid thing to say. What I think Aneesa was thinking was that Diem would win (since going into the finals round she had done better than Jodi on the first round) and Aneesa would still get credit (in Diem's eyes) for not picking her. I think she was sucking up to Diem thinking she wouldn't have to follow through with it.

 

It would be interesting to watch if Aneesa hadn't made that promise though. Granted, Diem would have no reason to assume she wouldn't be going in, since Svet was Aneesa's closest friend and Jodi wasn't an option, but Diem probably would still sulk about it. Aneesa handed her a legitimate gripe on a silver platter.

 

I have never cared for Aneesa though either. She likes to try and sabotage her own teammates when she doesn't like them and she was a complete raving bitch to Shavoun on one of the later Duels.

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I am watching Fresh Meat 1 and I am really shocked that both Evan and Kenny seem almost...nice. It is so weird to watch them knowing how they would eventually behave on later seasons.

I am really disgusted with the number of "Tonya is a dirty slut" sentiments though. It's in just about every episode, and quite a few Fresh Meat kids who didn't even know her or witness her previous behavior were jumping on the bandwagon.

 

And Tina, shut the fuck up. "Let me tell you something about Tonya. She talks a lot of shit, and can't back it up." Um, unlike you, Tina? Tonya is mentally ill and generally under the influence of some controlled substances on just about every season, and she still manages to regularly outperform you. Like Aneesa, you usually have a size advantage over your female opponent, and that is your only asset. You suck at everything else, and I bet Evan and Kenny would be quick to say that you hit like a girl.

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On 1/26/2021 at 2:24 PM, Tatum said:

I am watching Fresh Meat 1 and I am really shocked that both Evan and Kenny seem almost...nice. It is so weird to watch them knowing how they would eventually behave on later seasons.

I am really disgusted with the number of "Tonya is a dirty slut" sentiments though. It's in just about every episode, and quite a few Fresh Meat kids who didn't even know her or witness her previous behavior were jumping on the bandwagon.

And Tina, shut the fuck up. "Let me tell you something about Tonya. She talks a lot of shit, and can't back it up." Um, unlike you, Tina? Tonya is mentally ill and generally under the influence of some controlled substances on just about every season, and she still manages to regularly outperform you. Like Aneesa, you usually have a size advantage over your female opponent, and that is your only asset. You suck at everything else, and I bet Evan and Kenny would be quick to say that you hit like a girl.

Yeah, that bothered me too. Tonya's partner on Fresh Meat was such a dick to her right out of the gate, it was definitely a pile-on. 

As for Evan and Kenny, I can totally see why people like them and they had such potential to be entertaining and snarky without being absolutely disgusting shitbags and they chose poorly as the seasons progressed. 

Just binged Gauntlet III and that final challenge was just awful to watch. Eric being dragged along, chained up to the others, convulsing and falling all over the place, while everyone except Brad screamed at him. It was just awful, in a Lord of the Flies sort of way.

In fairness, they should never have let him get to the end, they all know that the last challenge is extremely physical. Good for Brad for standing up for him and being a human in the moment. I loved when CT started trying to bully Brad and he immediately went all 'post-atomic wedgie, NOW IT'S A NECKLACE' Brad and CT quickly backed off, lol. 

Also, did the Vets team really think they won at the end after Eric got taken away? Like, when has it ever been "some of the team finished, so we win"??  If that was the case, people would have called a fake emergency to get rid of their dead weight players at the end.

Watching the reunion now and Eric isn't coming off great here. I get that it isn't fun to relive that, but he doesn't take any responsibility at all. Just a quick "I'm sorry guys, I thought I could do it and I was wrong, sorry for costing us the win." 

Coral looks amazing with bangs, covering up that fivehead makes her so much prettier.

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16 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

Yeah, that bothered me too. Tonya's partner on Fresh Meat was such a dick to her right out of the gate, it was definitely a pile-on. 

As for Evan and Kenny, I can totally see why people like them and they had such potential to be entertaining and snarky without being absolutely disgusting shitbags and they chose poorly as the seasons progressed. 

Just binged Gauntlet III and that final challenge was just awful to watch. Eric being dragged along, chained up to the others, convulsing and falling all over the place, while everyone except Brad screamed at him. It was just awful, in a Lord of the Flies sort of way.

In fairness, they should never have let him get to the end, they all know that the last challenge is extremely physical. Good for Brad for standing up for him and being a human in the moment. I loved when CT started trying to bully Brad and he immediately went all 'post-atomic wedgie, NOW IT'S A NECKLACE' Brad and CT quickly backed off, lol. 

Also, did the Vets team really think they won at the end after Eric got taken away? Like, when has it ever been "some of the team finished, so we win"??  If that was the case, people would have called a fake emergency to get rid of their dead weight players at the end.

Watching the reunion now and Eric isn't coming off great here. I get that it isn't fun to relive that, but he doesn't take any responsibility at all. Just a quick "I'm sorry guys, I thought I could do it and I was wrong, sorry for costing us the win." 

Coral looks amazing with bangs, covering up that fivehead makes her so much prettier.

I have been watching the older seasons on CBS All Access and I am SO BUMMED that for whatever reason, the Fresh Meat episode with Diem's meltdown isn't on there. It skips from episode 14 to 16. I wanted to see it because as I understand it, Diem was pissed that Tina chose her and Derrick to go into the final elimination, along with Darrell and Aviv. As those were the two strongest teams left, that makes perfect sense from a strategic view which was exactly what Derrick and Diem thought when they did THE EXACT SAME THING a few rounds earlier, sending in Theo and Chandra. I couldn't catch the whole meltdown, just what was highlighted during the "previously on...", and Diem is squawking, "We PROTECTED you!" to Tina. Diem, you chose not to send her and Kenny in when you had the chance because they were a weak team and you wanted them in the final because you knew you could beat them. Let's be real here. Kenny and Tina would be stupid to not take the chance to get one team eliminated who could surely beat them.

 

Theo showed the same level of graciousness after losing when he took several minutes to bitch to the camera about how short Derrick was. It seems that when people make an "alliance" on these shows, someone always assumes this means whoever they are in an alliance with ought to just step aside and let him or her just have the victory.

 

Watching Gauntlet 3 now. I find it HILARIOUS that the vets (except Casey) thought Johnny was more expendable than Big E. I didn't watch the first time, but I know how the finale turns out. Those vets must have felt pretty stupid. I love the part where the vets are wandering away and someone (I think CT) says, 'if Johnny gets force field, he's done. He's got no legs,' or something to that effect. I think Gauntlet 3 was John's official turning point from "not exactly progressive on social issues and has some sexist ideas, but isn't a bad person overall," to "oh my god, full on misogynistic cruel asshole with 0 redeeming qualities other than the ability to complete a Cross fit sequence".

 

eta: for whatever reason, CBS All Access through Amazon Prime is limited. I got the full eppy going through CBS's app directly, and I got to see the meltdown in full glory, and it was even better than I hoped. First of all, I am pretty sure Diem called Tina the C word. They bleeped it out and did it as a voice over, so you can't read her lips, but I don't think it was "bitch" and it was definitely a one syllable word. I am not even sure they bleep out bitch anymore- I recall a montage where Wes called Casey a stupid bitch multiple times. On top of that, Diem says she is the reason Tina is still there, which is completely delusional because at that point Tina had been in exile twice. And again, it wasn't like Diem chose to not vote Tina in out of kindness- it did not make strategic sense to do so.

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On 1/28/2021 at 9:43 AM, Tatum said:

I have been watching the older seasons on CBS All Access and I am SO BUMMED that for whatever reason, the Fresh Meat episode with Diem's meltdown isn't on there. It skips from episode 14 to 16. I wanted to see it because as I understand it, Diem was pissed that Tina chose her and Derrick to go into the final elimination, along with Darrell and Aviv. As those were the two strongest teams left, that makes perfect sense from a strategic view which was exactly what Derrick and Diem thought when they did THE EXACT SAME THING a few rounds earlier, sending in Theo and Chandra. I couldn't catch the whole meltdown, just what was highlighted during the "previously on...", and Diem is squawking, "We PROTECTED you!" to Tina. Diem, you chose not to send her and Kenny in when you had the chance because they were a weak team and you wanted them in the final because you knew you could beat them. Let's be real here. Kenny and Tina would be stupid to not take the chance to get one team eliminated who could surely beat them.

How funny, I just watched this on CBS All Access yesterday.  No missing episodes, I was able to see Diem's meltdown in full glory. Her argument to Tina made absolutely no sense, she was just utterly appalled that someone would dare send her into an elimination. After posting about her freak out on The Duel I'd been meaning to re-watch Fresh Meat to see if I had been too hard on her.  Nope, she was an insufferable entitled brat.  While I certainly feel terrible about her situation and death, I understand why I never warmed to her.

Also, Wes screaming "you stupid bitch" at Casey every 5 min certainly didn't hold up well either.

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2 hours ago, snarts said:

How funny, I just watched this on CBS All Access yesterday.  No missing episodes, I was able to see Diem's meltdown in full glory. Her argument to Tina made absolutely no sense, she was just utterly appalled that someone would dare send her into an elimination. After posting about her freak out on The Duel I'd been meaning to re-watch Fresh Meat to see if I had been too hard on her.  Nope, she was an insufferable entitled brat.  While I certainly feel terrible about her situation and death, I understand why I never warmed to her.

Also, Wes screaming "you stupid bitch" at Casey every 5 min certainly didn't hold up well either.

I thought she seemed okay for most of FM...she didn't get much screentime until the end, and that certainly did her no favors.

 

I would have cut her some slack over her tantrum on FM if she didn't go on to have one every time she was voted into elimination.

 

I thought she was much more obnoxious on the Duel, the Ruins, and the one where CT went crazy on Adam. She's not responsible for his behavior, but she did throw a freaking grenade in the room. She was also mildly obnoxious on the first Battle of the Exes, but nowhere near as bad as earlier shows. By the second battle of the exes (in what would be her final appearance) I thought she seemed a lot more mature. Then again, I suppose nearly 10 years had passed between her first and final season.

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I’m watching Gauntlet 3 on Paramount+. Finishing the finale and just cringing at Evelyn, CT, Kenny, Evan and others basically not caring that Eric was ready to die. I haven’t always enjoyed Brad but appreciated him trying to do the right thing. 

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Pluto was airing Cutthroat last night and I got to watch the Johnny Bananas backpack in all its glory on my big TV for the first time in a long time. I LOVED IT!

(I also totally forgot that not only did CT totally take Bananas to school, but Tyler actually beat CT! So it was doubly humiliating for Bananas!)

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51 minutes ago, Girl in a Cardigan said:

Pluto was airing Cutthroat last night and I got to watch the Johnny Bananas backpack in all its glory on my big TV for the first time in a long time. I LOVED IT!

(I also totally forgot that not only did CT totally take Bananas to school, but Tyler actually beat CT! So it was doubly humiliating for Bananas!)

If I recall correctly, Tyler didn’t actually win against CT. He just outlasted Johnny, giving him the win over Johnny. However, I don’t recall anyone winning the elimination against CT.

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For some reason, I watched the Ruins over the weekend and holy shit. Obviously, it has the whole black cloud of the Kenny / Evan / Tonya assault (although Paramount skips that particular episode) but I'd forgotten about Darrell & Brad's and Tonya & Veronica's fights which were really ugly. Aside from those extreme situations, the entire season is gross and steeped in misogyny - Kenny, Evan and Johnny are complete scumbags, of course, but it wasn't just them. It was pervasive through the cast. TJ was a prick then too.

I know this season was especially egregious but the fact that the show was even deemed releasable in 2009 is shocking. Not gonna lie - I kind of regret going down that rabbit hole. What a difference a decade makes.

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3 minutes ago, lyric said:

For some reason, I watched the Ruins over the weekend and holy shit. Obviously, it has the whole black cloud of the Kenny / Evan / Tonya assault (although Paramount skips that particular episode) but I'd forgotten about Darrell & Brad's and Tonya & Veronica's fights which were really ugly. Aside from those extreme situations, the entire season is gross and steeped in misogyny - Kenny, Evan and Johnny are complete scumbags, of course, but it wasn't just them. It was pervasive through the cast. TJ was a prick then too.

I know this season was especially egregious but the fact that the show was even deemed releasable in 2009 is shocking. Not gonna lie - I kind of regret going down that rabbit hole. What a difference a decade makes.

One of the worst seasons ever. The Axis of Ass wound up winning, Evan and Kenny's alleged scumbaggery wouldn't be revealed for a few years, I wound up hating Susie and Derrick as well, and Darrell wrecked his perfect record pummeling Brad. One thought: if Darrell has a "man cave" and there's a huge picture of Brad with the black eye mounted on a wall? I wouldn't be too shocked.

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On 3/17/2021 at 10:28 PM, lyric said:

Aside from those extreme situations, the entire season is gross and steeped in misogyny - Kenny, Evan and Johnny are complete scumbags, of course, but it wasn't just them. It was pervasive through the cast. TJ was a prick then too.

Yes, even ignoring the whole (alleged) sexual assault, that season was incredibly hard to watch. JEK's constant "pranks" on the female castmates with no repercussions, the insane bullying of Tonya and Katie- remember one of the guys put a USED PLUNGER in Katie's BED- and then laughed as she freaked out- I cannot believe BMP did not step in sooner. Even for 2009 standards, they were incredibly negligent.

 

I still believe that even if Tonya wasn't raped (the popular theory on Reddit is that K and E pantomimed inserting a toothbrush into her exposed vagina without actually inserting it), the lawyers that viewed the footage told BMP to cut Tonya a big check to make the mess go away and hope to run out the statute of limitations on any other unreported misconduct or sex crime. Pure speculation, but that's always what I've thought.

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I just finished rewatching the 2nd Duel, which I skipped the first time around. Kenny by himself is almost bearable, and Ev and Wes were so obnoxious about having the "upper hand" that I found myself thinking Kenny was the less annoying (ignoring anything that had already happened offscreen at that point, obviously what Kenny has been accused of doing is worse than anything Wes or Ev have done onscreen) of the two sides. Also, Wes has no loyalty at all to anyone. And I don't believe for one second Ev and Wes were playing up the villain angle, I think they are sincerely that obnoxious and delusional about their own intelligence levels.

 

Normally I don't approve of Teege scolding the cast members, since it's usually along the lines of berating them for not being willing to drink a vat of pig's blood or run 6 miles on a sprained ankle, but I LOVED Teege calling out Ev's poor sportsmanship every time she blamed her partner for their losses. I loved him saying, as she's stomping past him in a huff, wow, I've never seen a 4 year old on this challenge.

 

Wes, Ev, and Kenny had a LOT of competition for annoying cast members though this season. I forgot this was the season that introduced us to Laurel "Let me ask you point blank why you think I'm an asshole and then get huffy when you tell me", and Theresa "I'm the hottest girl in the room and everyone is jealous of me".

 

Oh, and Sarah "Kenny is still my god, but I'll hook up with his fatter, uglier, and even less articulate third cousin Vinny as a consolation prize". Gross. I did snicker when Ev correctly ascertained that Sarah only picked him because she wanted to fuck him. Which, ew (both for wanting to fuck him and for picking him for that reason. I feel like almost all the second fresh meat cast were sexually harassed by their veteran partners. It was pretty gross).

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1 hour ago, Tatum said:

I just finished rewatching the 2nd Duel, which I skipped the first time around. Kenny by himself is almost bearable, and Ev and Wes were so obnoxious about having the "upper hand" that I found myself thinking Kenny was the less annoying (ignoring anything that had already happened offscreen at that point, obviously what Kenny has been accused of doing is worse than anything Wes or Ev have done onscreen) of the two sides. Also, Wes has no loyalty at all to anyone. And I don't believe for one second Ev and Wes were playing up the villain angle, I think they are sincerely that obnoxious and delusional about their own intelligence levels.

I get the feeling you're referring to Fresh Meat 2. That's the only season I can think of where Kenny was "alone" and Evelyn and Wes had an alliance together. This was also Laurel's first season where she was partnered with Kenny.

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13 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I get the feeling you're referring to Fresh Meat 2. That's the only season I can think of where Kenny was "alone" and Evelyn and Wes had an alliance together. This was also Laurel's first season where she was partnered with Kenny.

Oh you're right, I watched both the second duel and FM2 recently, but all my commentary was in regards to FM2.

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Does anyone remember which season it was where Coral struggled in the final challenge? I think she got bit by a snake or spider. Is that season available anywhere?

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25 minutes ago, Jess14 said:

Does anyone remember which season it was where Coral struggled in the final challenge? I think she got bit by a snake or spider. Is that season available anywhere?

The Gauntlet.

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7 hours ago, Tatum said:

Also, Wes has no loyalty at all to anyone. And I don't believe for one second Ev and Wes were playing up the villain angle, I think they are sincerely that obnoxious and delusional about their own intelligence levels.

I can’t imagine what you mean. Wes is the most loyal cast member ever on the challenge; nay, on reality television. Just ask him. Or better yet, watch his Instagram live that went on for two hours in which he used a whiteboard to award himself points for his loyalty and told everyone who brought up legitimate times he’s betrayed his friends why they were wrong and misunderstood what happened and really he had never done anything disloyal, ever. I know this will shock you, but according to his own tally, Wes won the argument by about twenty self awarded points to zero.

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11 hours ago, Jillibean said:

I can’t imagine what you mean. Wes is the most loyal cast member ever on the challenge; nay, on reality television. Just ask him. Or better yet, watch his Instagram live that went on for two hours in which he used a whiteboard to award himself points for his loyalty and told everyone who brought up legitimate times he’s betrayed his friends why they were wrong and misunderstood what happened and really he had never done anything disloyal, ever. I know this will shock you, but according to his own tally, Wes won the argument by about twenty self awarded points to zero.

Haha, Oh Wes. Maybe he's a decent guy in real life but his behavior on Fresh Meat II was sleazier (only in regards to making promises to people then reneging) than anything JEK did. When Kenny is shocked at how cavalierly you are treating people, you know you've hit a new low.

 

Also, watching Kenny on FM2- for all his bragging about how beautiful he is, and how "retarded" everyone else is, it was pretty obvious he was super insecure and is desperate for people to like him. That doesn't excuse his horrific behavior (even just onscreen), but I definitely saw a different side to him when he wasn't with Johnny and Evan.

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I always find my way back to season 23 BotS. It's the first season of the Challenge I ever watched after flipping through channels and noticing Zach's face as I was flipping past MTV and also noticing it wasn't Real World, which Zach's season of Real World: San Diego was the first season of RW I ever watched.

Every once in a while, I go back and watch season 23. One moment that really make me crack up was during the season's trivia challenge. TJ asks Nany who won season 17's Duel 2. They cut to Nany's interview and she's like "The Duel? I don't even remember the Duel. Was I alive when the Duel aired?" in super smug and sarcastic way and it just cracks me up every time I watch it.

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Continuing a rewatch and onto Gauntlet III right now. Watching with someone who has never seen it and doesn't know who wins after all the fat trimming talk. I do like the rare unspoiled moments that catch a rewatch partner by surprise.

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On 4/5/2021 at 9:59 AM, AncientNewbie said:

Continuing a rewatch and onto Gauntlet III right now. Watching with someone who has never seen it and doesn't know who wins after all the fat trimming talk. I do like the rare unspoiled moments that catch a rewatch partner by surprise.

Just watched this finale and what a group of assholes. And Evan, in true form, is screaming at Big E and then once he realizes what a dick he's going to look like, tries to give a big inspirational speech about how Big E just needs to focus on getting better and they'll finish the race for him.

 

Ev is actually the biggest asshole of the group though when she snots, he deceived us into thinking he could handle this. Shut the fuck up, Ev, that's not why he stayed. You had one chance to eliminate him, and you blew it because you were all afraid his size advantage would allow him to beat Evan in an elimination round. You should have risked it, but none of the guys were willing to stick their asses on the line to get rid of him. The split between the teams was massively lopsided the entire game and you didn't hear the rookies whining about how unfair it was.

 

Also, it was $300,000- split ten freaking ways. After taxes, that's not that much cash, certainly not enough to appear on TV bitching that the dry heaving, convulsing guy on the ground cost you money.

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On 3/14/2021 at 5:45 PM, Mischievious said:

I’m watching Gauntlet 3 on Paramount+. Finishing the finale and just cringing at Evelyn, CT, Kenny, Evan and others basically not caring that Eric was ready to die. I haven’t always enjoyed Brad but appreciated him trying to do the right thing. 

Agreed, it was nice seeing Brad stick up for Big E. I think he was sincerely floored how little anyone else cared about the fact that Big E was not okay.

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14 hours ago, Tatum said:

Just watched this finale and what a group of assholes. And Evan, in true form, is screaming at Big E and then once he realizes what a dick he's going to look like, tries to give a big inspirational speech about how Big E just needs to focus on getting better and they'll finish the race for him.

 

Ev is actually the biggest asshole of the group though when she snots, he deceived us into thinking he could handle this. Shut the fuck up, Ev, that's not why he stayed. You had one chance to eliminate him, and you blew it because you were all afraid his size advantage would allow him to beat Evan in an elimination round. You should have risked it, but none of the guys were willing to stick their asses on the line to get rid of him. The split between the teams was massively lopsided the entire game and you didn't hear the rookies whining about how unfair it was.

 

Also, it was $300,000- split ten freaking ways. After taxes, that's not that much cash, certainly not enough to appear on TV bitching that the dry heaving, convulsing guy on the ground cost you money.

The G3 was such an incredibly unfair and lopsided season (much like the Ruins), but unlike the Ruins it's extremely satisfying in that the whole thing ends up as a win for karmic justice. And yes, Ev was awful on the G3. She got so much credit on The Island for "being a feminist" and "standing up to the boys" when in truth she would have happily jumped on board with the boys much sooner if they had just given her the opportunity. Ev was all about wanting to be told how great she was and how much better than the other girls she was, and if you fulfilled that need for her she'd be your bestie even if you were the most misogynistic pig on earth. She was a nightmare on the Ruins too--I don't know if you can tell as much on a rewatch, but I remember watching it at the time and watching all the "dailies" on the old MTV site, and she was so incredibly immature, always screaming and cursing and throwing furniture when she didn't get her way. 

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2 hours ago, Jillibean said:

The G3 was such an incredibly unfair and lopsided season (much like the Ruins), but unlike the Ruins it's extremely satisfying in that the whole thing ends up as a win for karmic justice. And yes, Ev was awful on the G3. She got so much credit on The Island for "being a feminist" and "standing up to the boys" when in truth she would have happily jumped on board with the boys much sooner if they had just given her the opportunity. Ev was all about wanting to be told how great she was and how much better than the other girls she was, and if you fulfilled that need for her she'd be your bestie even if you were the most misogynistic pig on earth. She was a nightmare on the Ruins too--I don't know if you can tell as much on a rewatch, but I remember watching it at the time and watching all the "dailies" on the old MTV site, and she was so incredibly immature, always screaming and cursing and throwing furniture when she didn't get her way. 

I felt so sorry for Evelyn on The Island, but she really isn't a very nice person. Much like Kenny on the beginning of Fresh Meat II, when she's the outsider she seems like a decent person, an underdog you can root for, and the minute she's part of the majority she turns into a complete asshole.

 

I rewatched the scene with Big E, and Evan and CT are definitely the biggest abusers, both screaming in his face telling him to move. Kenny and Adam are off on the sidelines rolling their eyes and largely unsympathetic, but at least they're not in his face. At one point, Evan is hollering at Eric, and CT actually pushes him out of the way and tells Evan he's making it worse, and to encourage Eric. I thought that was a moment of kindness on CT's part, but a scene later CT is physically dragging Eric while screaming at him and yelling at Brad for trying to defend him.

 

Even without the later allegations, I think there is plenty of evidence that Evan had a cruel streak a mile wide. He likes to play the nice guy, but I think he's really an awful person, and that's only going off what we were shown on TV.

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On 3/17/2021 at 11:28 PM, lyric said:

For some reason, I watched the Ruins over the weekend and holy shit. Obviously, it has the whole black cloud of the Kenny / Evan / Tonya assault (although Paramount skips that particular episode) but I'd forgotten about Darrell & Brad's and Tonya & Veronica's fights which were really ugly. Aside from those extreme situations, the entire season is gross and steeped in misogyny - Kenny, Evan and Johnny are complete scumbags, of course, but it wasn't just them. It was pervasive through the cast. TJ was a prick then too.

I know this season was especially egregious but the fact that the show was even deemed releasable in 2009 is shocking. Not gonna lie - I kind of regret going down that rabbit hole. What a difference a decade makes.

Yes! I watched the last few episodes of that season last night on Pluto, and just hearing Kenny or Johnny (can’t remember which) mention that the Challengers were left with “a slut, a poet, and Casey” was jarring. Then, the way he made fun of Sarah was gross. I don’t even like Sarah, but it was too much. 

I already knew the outcome, but even rewatching, I wanted Susie to just sit down right before the finish line, so KellyAnne and Sarah could win and the boys wouldn’t get the money.

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1 hour ago, Tatum said:

I felt so sorry for Evelyn on The Island, but she really isn't a very nice person.

Evelyn was pretty sympathetic in The Island but Evelyn was a bully too, not to the extent of the guys though. I remember on The Island, they were bullying KellyAnne so bad. Evelyn and KellyAnne were best friends.

Anytime that whole crew got together they all fed off of each other's shitty-ness and multiplied it.

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3 hours ago, Tatum said:

Even without the later allegations, I think there is plenty of evidence that Evan had a cruel streak a mile wide. He likes to play the nice guy, but I think he's really an awful person, and that's only going off what we were shown on TV.

Yes. Especially rewatching his seasons, he comes of as extremely disingenuous.  Knowing that he was a main player in whatever happened to Tonya, and then they way he turned around and became her defender?  It was obvious to me that he was doing damage control.  I've always felt that Kenny might have just gone too far, but I think Evan probably deep down got off on it.  I'm not excusing Kenny or saying he should come back, but if I had to spend time with one of them alone, there's no question which one it would be.

Also, I still have a problem with them letting Eric back. We need to take shit that happens to men just as seriously as we women, and if Eric had put his genitals on a woman's passed out face, I have trouble believing he would be back.

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4 hours ago, Tatum said:

I felt so sorry for Evelyn on The Island, but she really isn't a very nice person. Much like Kenny on the beginning of Fresh Meat II, when she's the outsider she seems like a decent person, an underdog you can root for, and the minute she's part of the majority she turns into a complete asshole.

 

I rewatched the scene with Big E, and Evan and CT are definitely the biggest abusers, both screaming in his face telling him to move. Kenny and Adam are off on the sidelines rolling their eyes and largely unsympathetic, but at least they're not in his face. At one point, Evan is hollering at Eric, and CT actually pushes him out of the way and tells Evan he's making it worse, and to encourage Eric. I thought that was a moment of kindness on CT's part, but a scene later CT is physically dragging Eric while screaming at him and yelling at Brad for trying to defend him.

 

Even without the later allegations, I think there is plenty of evidence that Evan had a cruel streak a mile wide. He likes to play the nice guy, but I think he's really an awful person, and that's only going off what we were shown on TV.

Evan has been an arrogant, awful person since he first appeared in Fresh Meat. Just horrible. Power went to his head and it made him even worse - and that is hard to believe. 

 

I question the woman who married him. Plus, Johanna making  Evan the Godfather to her son. WTH? 

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54 minutes ago, lasu said:

Yes. Especially rewatching his seasons, he comes of as extremely disingenuous.  Knowing that he was a main player in whatever happened to Tonya, and then they way he turned around and became her defender?  It was obvious to me that he was doing damage control.  I've always felt that Kenny might have just gone too far, but I think Evan probably deep down got off on it.

Totally agree. Not defending him because a bully is a bully, regardless of motivation, but their motivations were different. Kenny did it, in my opinion, because that's what he had to do/be in order to fit in. Evan did it (in my opinion) because he's malicious and enjoys demeaning and humiliating people, particularly emotionally disturbed women.

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One of favorite Wes moments was when he called out Evan on The Ruins. After the Tonya and Veronica fight, the guys were sitting around and Evan was saying how they all have said things about Tonya. Wes chimes in and says "I haven't. Derrick hasn't. Cohutta hasn't. It has been you three." Or something to that effect. Love that. Also, Wes was the first one up to stop the fight and then Evan decided he needed to to be a good guy, too. Evan holding Tonya, afterwards, was laughable 

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