S31.E13: Villains Have More Fun

[truthaboutluv]

No one came into merge with a solid alliance, thanks to the tribe swaps. But Spencer entered merge as part of the Ta Keo 5 alliance. Kass/Ciera extended that to him at the tribe swap (remember Spencer's talking head about how excited he was to finally be in an alliance). He chose to go with the Brolliance instead--which effectively dissolved the Ta Keo 5 alliance--and he was as solid as anyone else in the Brolliance.

 

 

I admit I don't remember that TH but I thought as has been the case for much of the season (which you rightly pointed out), Ciera and Kass worked with Spencer for the Woo blindside mostly to weaken Savage's game but I didn't get the impression it meant they were aligned. And I'm not sure who the 5 was - I know Abi, Kass, Wentworth maybe were a group but who was the 5? Did that include Joe or Keith? And what I most remember about that first post merge tribal council is that everyone but Abi and Ciera voted Kass, including Wentworth. So how much of an alliance was there really?

 

And clearly it meant the majority numbers had swung that way so it made sense he voted that way. I just think that while there weren't any solid alliances, you could tell there was some type of bond between a few players but Spencer seemingly did not have that with anyone coming into the merge. I'm not saying it is the case now, just saying that was the way the season was edited up to that point.

Edited December 11, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[fishcakes]

If anyone entered merge with a distinctive disadvantage, it was Abi. IIRC, Abi went to every single pre-merge Tribal Council but one, so most of the people she worked with were out of the game already.

 

True, but that was her own fault since she flipped on every alliance she was in and voted them out.

[Ms Blue Jay]

truthaboutluv I didn't mean to offend and I'm sorry.  I was really laughing at the pro-Spencer sentiment in this thread I was feeling and trying really hard to challenge it.  I understand your points, but I was really trying to defend J & K (and apparently, Tony) against this pro-Spencer wave that I feel.  I for one do not see Spencer as underestimated or unlikeable.  I think a lot of the audience members seem to really like him.   An amount that I'm almost overwhelmed by, actually, which is why I like seeing concrete reasons for it typed out. I personally would not put Spencer in the 'underestimated' camp not sure if you used this exact word or not, but I do not place him there.  

 

This whole conversation is reminding me of The Office:

 

Jan Levinson: Well, Michael, I just... I underestimated you.
Michael Scott: Yeah, well, maybe next time you will estimate me.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[Sarahsmile416]

Maybe I'm letting my pro-Joe bias shine here but the Abi-Joe contretemps notwithstanding, I am truly not seeing where he was a jerk to the other cast mates. He is friendly with almost everyone from his previous season and if social media (and Ponderosa reception) is anything to go by he seems to be well-liked on this season as well. I am not saying he didn't make a mistake vis-a-via Abi. He clearly did not have the savvy or the maturity to handle her, but I do not believe that all of a sudden the editors are screwing with the footage to make a jerk seem like a nice guy. Not that it can't be done, but if it was, I would think there would be more people than Abi saying it.

[LadyChatts]

In returnee seasons, I understand why it isn't all warm and fuzzies-either because of past history (Kass/Tasha) or someone getting blindsided by a pre-game ally/friend (Lex/Rob).  I'm always cautious when Survivors talk about things that were said and done that they didn't show.  Not saying it didn't happen, but I need more than just one person (and not someone that has a very polarizing personality on here) to back it up.  And then, I wonder why bother to bring it up at all?  Bitter about their own edit?  Tasha is a good example.  She doesn't seem to be well liked at all by Survivors on her past season or this current season, yet nothing in her edit would really explain why that is.  I haven't seen anything Joe said or did that would make him a horrible person.  He admitted he and Abi had words.  He seems friendly with some of this year's cast members, and I know he's close with some of last year's.  But I haven't seen or heard anyone really say anything bad about him.

[Sarahsmile416]

In returnee seasons, I understand why it isn't all warm and fuzzies-either because of past history (Kass/Tasha) or someone getting blindsided by a pre-game ally/friend (Lex/Rob). I'm always cautious when Survivors talk about things that were said and done that they didn't show. Not saying it didn't happen, but I need more than just one person (and not someone that has a very polarizing personality on here) to back it up. And then, I wonder why bother to bring it up at all? Bitter about their own edit? Tasha is a good example. She doesn't seem to be well liked at all by Survivors on her past season or this current season, yet nothing in her edit would really explain why that is. I haven't seen anything Joe said or did that would make him a horrible person. He admitted he and Abi had words. He seems friendly with some of this year's cast members, and I know he's close with some of last year's. But I haven't seen or heard anyone really say anything bad about him.

Yes, exactly. I can certainly understand where Abi would feel hurt regarding what happened but Joe also came clean about it and he apologized from what I understand. Not that she is in any way obligated to accept that apology especially if she is that hurt. I think it may be easy for Abi to feel like she may speak for others she might not speak for - meaning she might think others have issues with him that they do not in actuality have.

Because honestly, if Joe was a villain edited into a good guy I really do not believe he would have gotten a) the reception he got at Ponderosa b) that people would have been so eager to get him out...he would have been seen as a goat - and THAT I don't think could be edited and c) there would be more evidence in other places that he was disliked.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Sarahsmile416

[Zuleikha]

I admit I don't remember that TH but I thought as has been the case for much of the season (which you rightly pointed out), Ciera and Kass worked with Spencer for the Woo blindside mostly to weaken Savage's game but I didn't get the impression it meant they were aligned. And I'm not sure who the 5 was - I know Abi, Kass, Wentworth maybe were a group but who was the 5? Did that include Joe or Keith? And what I most remember about that first post merge tribal council is that everyone but Abi and Ciera voted Kass, including Wentworth. So how much of an alliance was there really?

 

Yes, Ta Keo 5 included Joe/Keith. It was Kass/Ciera/Kelley/Joe/Keith. When the second swap happened and Ciera decided to vote out Woo instead of Spencer, Kass/Ciera pulled both Abi/Spencer into the Ta Keo 5 group, and Spencer appeared to have been happy about the plan. But when merge happened, Joe wasn't a sure thing and then he was lost to the Brolliance and Ta Keo 5 disintegrated. I don't think Spencer--with his already established relationship with Jeremy/Stephen/Kimmi--was more at sea than Kelley, Joe, Keith, or Abi at that point. The Brolliance turned Kelley/Ciera/Abi into a strong working unit for the next set of votes, but that's certainly not how they entered merge.

 

True, but that was her own fault since she flipped on every alliance she was in and voted them out.

It wasn't her fault that she had the bad luck to be on all of the losing tribes, though. Even if she hadn't flipped on everyone, she still would have entered merge with the most remaining players she'd never spoken to yet. 

[SlackerInc]

I like Tasha- I normally get to see only the second half of the show, so maybe I am missing something, but she seems like an ok contestant to me.

 

 

Abi should have had a clue when her "allies" Jeremy and Tasha didn't want to include her in their vote discussion. She deserves to be gone after voting for Keith (well, lots of other reasons too.)

 

Abi should have had a clue, but to me this is the most important reason why Tasha is a bad player (yet I've read through the whole thread and didn't see anyone else point to it).  Why on earth would you ever, ever, in Survivor, tell someone who thinks you are their ally that you are going to go off and have a discussion that doesn't include them?!?  Abi is known for getting paranoid easily, but that would make anyone paranoid--and with good reason.  Just wait until she has to use the bathroom or something and have your quick convo then.  I couldn't believe Tasha said that, nor for that matter that Jeremy went along with it (if I were in his shoes, I would have quickly objected "wait, why can't we talk in front of Abi?" and then set Tasha straight later).

Edited December 11, 2015 by SlackerInc

[Oscirus]

. 

On the other hand, Jeremy's only noticeable move has been to use his idol on Stephen.  Apart from that, he's never been in any real danger

 

You mean like at the first tribe swap when his new tribe consisted of two known strategists and 0 members of his broliance? Just because nothing happened to him doesn't mean that he wasn't in a dangerous situation.

 

It's why if I were a voter, I would vote for Spencer or Tasha over Jeremy.  They have had to fight to stay alive.  They made moves that kept them in the game and they have been at the bottom.

 

He has subtly deflected attention from himself and on to others, namely Joe.

 

Wouldn't that imply that Jeremy also made moves that kept him from being on the bottom?

 

Other than being lucky enough to get two idols and using one wisely, what has Kelly done that's been so impressive?

 

 

I guess it's in the eye of the beholder but I believe her sitting back and letting Ciera take all the heat for the amigas without anybody even noticing what she was doing to the point that Ciera became a bigger threat then her despite her recent idol play was quite impressive. I also thought her  and Kimmi's formation of the woman's alliance at the 7 was impressive in theory but not so much in execution.

 

If anyone entered merge with a distinctive disadvantage, it was Abi. IIRC, Abi went to every single pre-merge Tribal Council but one, so most of the people she worked with were out of the game already.

 

Abi went into the merge part of a seven person alliance and I'd assume that Kass or Ciera were nice enough to let her know about the broliance. I wouldn't call that a disadvantage.

 

[KimberStormer]

How Bout That, on 10 Dec 2015 - 1:01 PM, said:

To me he seems like the only one who has truly overhauled his game to take advantage of a second chance. He has recognized some of the flaws in his game and has done his best to adapt his strategy.

I don't see any growth from the other competitors.

 

Was going to respond to this but Ms Blue Jay said everything I wanted to say.  I will say that what Spencer certainly does is talk about how much he's changed/improved.  He is giving the editors enormous amounts of My Personal Journey Of Self-Improvement to put on screen.  I'd like to think well of Spencer, so I'm going to assume he means it, just like I assume he meant all the humble and self-effacing interviews he had post-Cagayan.  I just wish he wasn't so horrible in his pre-Cagayan interviews/questionnaire so I could fully believe it in my heart.

 

Ms Blue Jay, on 10 Dec 2015 - 2:46 PM, said:

"Jeremy has not had to fight to stay alive" is no strike against him, for me.  It's a point for him.  

 

This so much.  Kim got/gets this stuff too.  It's more enjoyable when there are massive challenges to overcome.  But's not better play.

[kikaha]

 

Other than being lucky enough to get two idols and using one wisely, what has Kelly done that's been so impressive?

 

First, she wasn't just 'lucky' to get her first idol.  She played brilliantly, from making a good excuse to leave camp, to setting up a pile of sticks as camouflage, to quickly finding the clue, to snatching the idol itself in one of the most stressful situations imaginable right under everyone eye's.  She was three steps ahead of everyone out there that entire way.  Result: she got the idol, and no one suspected a thing. 

 

Second, she is one of the most artful dodgers I've seen on the show.  While her tribe went to TC the first two episodes, no one even whispered her name as a target.  Bad luck cast her into minority positions after the shuffles.  But again she flew under the radar, building relationships, while throwing others under the bus. 

 

I think her one miscue was aligning with Ciera.  But even then she let Ciera and Kass take the heat.  She made the great idol play, in part due to her excellent social game.  She has kept the target off her ever since, and managed to turn things from down 3 to 9 to just about even.  She's one of the two or three best women challenge players this season, holds another idol in her pocket, and has gone deep with excellent jury management.  If she makes it to F3, IMO she wins against everyone except probably Jeremy. 

 

I think in some key ways Kelley and Jeremy have similar games.  Both are great socially: others trust them enough to bring key bits of information to them..  Both move along quietly under the radar, building good relationships with other players, surrounding themselves with shields.  Both perform well at challenges, but not so well as to raise paranoia against them.  Both strategize well, both found idols under trying conditions while totally pulling the wool over the other players' eyes, both played their first idol extremely well. 

 

IMO the two best players of the season.  Would love to see them at FTC, where I bet the vote would be close.  I think Kelley gets sure votes from Kass, Ciera and Abi; Jeremy gets sure votes from Savage, Stephen and Spence/Tasha; with Keith, Joe, Kimmi and Kelly determining the winner.  

 

I also think Jeremy wins easily if he makes the finals and Kelley does not. 

[Paws]

I agree, I don't see how anyone can beat Jeremy in the finals, but maybe Kelley would have a shot. Against Spencer he wins just by virtue of being the more like able of the two. I get a sense that Jeremy is the "big brother" around camp and every remaining player other than Kelley sees him as their #1 ally left in the game. And his final TC speech writes itself, particularly against Spencer: "this kid is so smart he'll make a million dollars within a year anyway. I'm a firefighter, I've got two kids, and now another on the way. I'll never have another chance for a million. "

[ProfCrash]

I think Kelly has a good shot if she makes it to the finals. This is a 10-11 person jury, depending on if it is a final three or two. I am assuming a final three given a two hour episode and the number of tribals they have mentioned. Assuming a three person FTC, Kelly needs 4-6 votes, depending on how many votes the other two contestants get. She needs a minimum of four, assuming the other 6 divide evenly between the other two contestants. She might need 6 if one contestant gets skunked.

 

I am only looking at the people on the Jury right now and who I think might vote for Kelley because spoilers are bad and I don't want to work scenarios for the other five players being in the game at the FTC.

 

Kelly:

Kass, Ciera and Abi are guaranteed votes. The four of them were aligned and working well together. I think they will see Kelly as an ally who played a good game and played from an underdog position to make it to the FTC.

 

So Stephen, Andrew, Joe and Kelly are left.

 

Andrew and Kelly will not vote for Kelley. I think that they had alliances with Kimmi, Jeremy, and Tasha and it is highly likely that one of those three will make it to the final. They will vote for someone that they were allied with. Kelly has shown at Ponderosa that she is not excited to be with people who she was not aligned with. Andrew has shown a level of disdain for Kelley's alliance mates.

 

Stephen and Joe might vote for Kelley if she makes a good enough case.

 

Joe told Kelley she was going home because he was working both sides. So he had been working with Kelley a bit and I think he can appreciate her game. He is a big time fan of the show and has been the underdog. I think he will respect how she managed to move from the bottom to making it to FTC. That said, he is likely to have at least one former ally in the FTC and he might very well lean towards a Jeremy or Spencer or Tasha because they played a strong game and he has stated on several occasions in the game and when he left the game that he wanted the strongest players at FTC. He made that argument to his allies, Jeremy, Spencer and Tasha.

 

Stephen prides himself as a Know It All and will make the most thought out choice. He could vote for Kelly based on her underdog status who managed to work the system to make it to the end. Her idol play was a big move in the game, it got Andrew out and no one saw it coming. She participated in taking out several strong players. I bet that she plays her second idol in order to makes it to the FTC and wins the final four immunity. That adds one more idol and a challenge win. That would give her one immunity and one reward win. That is a resume that can be sold to Stephen.

 

So with the jury as it currently stands, I can see three locked votes, probably four votes (counting Stephen). I think she can win a vote from some combination of Kimmi, Keith, Spencer, Jeremy, or Tasha. OK, not Jeremy or Tasha but I can see Spencer voting for her because she played the underdog role well and Spencer knows how hard that is. Kimmi because there is a part of her that might want to see a woman win and she could be convinced that Kelley played a good game.

[Bryce Lynch]

Agreed. In fact, I must have been editing my post to say a similar thing at the same time you posted. Plus he has kids, is a firefighter, Val is pregnant, etc...he's more sympathetic.

I think Jeremy is the favorite, but I don't think "Val is pregnant" will help him much, if at all. Generally speaking, "I need the money more" arguments are losing ones.

I remember being disgusted by Dawn trying to use her 6 adopted children spiel.

Plus, having a baby isn't exactly a horrendous hardship.

[Bouffe]

I think another misconception may be that Spencer is unlikable. I know that's certainly what the editing and his storyline has tried to sell this season, that he's the stoic who has to learn to show emotion and feelings. And I'm not saying that isn't in some sense who he is. However, I don't think that means he's unlikable. I know there was some drama or whatever on twitter some days ago after Stephen was voted out between him and Stephen but for the most part, I don't think anyone has ever really said anything truly bad about Spencer. 

 

I remember in his original season, most of the jury was more than ready to vote him for the million if he'd made the final tribal council which is exactly why Tony and company knew they had to get him out when he lost immunity at F4. None of the three of Tony, Kass and Woo were going to beat Spencer. And this season, I don't disagree that Jeremy is likable and a strong threat to sit next to in the end but I think some underestimate how liked Spencer himself might be.

 

I think back to Savage's comments when he wanted to vote him out. He said how much he liked Spencer, thought he was a great kid, that he was someone he'd be proud to call his son but that he was just too much of a threat to keep around. And clearly Savage and Varner and others who wanted him out earlier were right. Don't let him get deep into the game. 

 

I am truly amazed at the position Spencer has put himself in post-merge because frankly, some weeks ago, I thought he would be done very early into the merge. Spencer literally had NO ONE. He had no alliance, no numbers, not even one solid person with him, just no one. And somehow he managed to worm his way into the larger group of numbers and sort of just hide in plain site while everyone focused on the bigger physical threat, Joe and the more aggressive and unlikable people like Kass. And this is what I meant about Cierra's whole "people not playing..." speech. Sometimes when it seems like someone is not playing, it just means they're biding their time until they're in a good position to make a move.

 

The position Spencer was in coming into the merge, he NEEDED to lay low and stay out of the fray as much as possible until no one was paying attention to him. And that's exactly what's happened and allowed him to work himself in a good position. Now I don't know that he'll get to the end because again, I do think most players are playing for themselves, as they should, whether or not viewers think they're playing a great game and with less people and chaos to hide behind, the focus very well may come back very brightly on him. 

 

I agree with this 100%, truthaboutluv, and I hope you are right about Spencer. I have been thinking that if Spencer and Jeremy go to the end together that Jeremy would win, but you are making me rethink that.

[Bouffe]

Why can't we just me more upfront, like, I like player x.  That's why I'm cheering for player x.  Nobody is objective here.  I think any debate between J-S-K is really just a personal preference at this point.  Their games are all so close IMO.

 

It is absolutely a matter of preference, of both the player and the strategy they use. Of course the same argument (Jeremy has a solid alliance, Spencer did not) will be used differently depending on who one likes. It's all part of this Survivor-arm-chair-side-line game we play here. :)

[TheFinalRose]

I got the biggest laugh of the whole season hearing Abi say she had to start thinking about who she wanted to bring to the end with her. As if.  Abi Maria's existence on this season's cast always smacked of producer placement due to the fact that a cast of bona fide nice guys might result in less drama than the producers wanted. I do think her paranoia gave the season some needed laughs and I am also glad they voted her out and refused to let her cash in as the F3 goat.

 

I guess it's in the eye of the beholder but I believe her sitting back and letting Ciera take all the heat for the amigas without anybody even noticing what she was doing to the point that Ciera became a bigger threat then her despite her recent idol play was quite impressive.

 

 

Ciera opened her mouth and spouted off a lot and she also dinged her chances by aligning with Chaos Kass and outright lying in front of everyone, which was not a smart move. Ciera did a lot to put the target on her own back and I personaly wouldn't credit any of that to Kelly's game play. 

 

I'm getting a Spencer wins edit from the last few episodes. I'd love to see Jeremy win, but he looks like a fourth place boot to me, just because he doesn't win immunities for himself and he hasn't made enemies. I think instead of Abi Kimmi will be brought to the end because she is so bland I can't imagine her getting any votes. 

[peachmangosteen]

I think we can all agree that it's refreshing to even HAVE this many players worthy of fighting about left in the game at this stage.

 

YES! And honestly I wouldn't hate to see any of the remaining players win. Of them I am least impressed by Tasha's game and I have grown to dislike her, but if she won I wouldn't rage out like I have in the past over winners.

 

I think in some key ways Kelley and Jeremy have similar games.  

 

I have been thinking this, too. They are playing very similar games it's just that Jeremy has been playing most of the game from a power position and Kelley has been playing from an underdog position. Which honestly that is probably a big part of why I'm rooting more for Kelley. I almost always root for the underdog. The only time I can remember that I didn't was One World.

Edited December 11, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[LanceM]

I got the biggest laugh of the whole season hearing Abi say she had to start thinking about who she wanted to bring to the end with her. As if.  Abi Maria's existence on this season's cast always smacked of producer placement due to the fact that a cast of bona fide nice guys might result in less drama than the producers wanted. I do think her paranoia gave the season some needed laughs and I am also glad they voted her out and refused to let her cash in as the F3 goat.

 

 

Ciera opened her mouth and spouted off a lot and she also dinged her chances by aligning with Chaos Kass and outright lying in front of everyone, which was not a smart move. Ciera did a lot to put the target on her own back and I personaly wouldn't credit any of that to Kelly's game play. 

 

I'm getting a Spencer wins edit from the last few episodes. I'd love to see Jeremy win, but he looks like a fourth place boot to me, just because he doesn't win immunities for himself and he hasn't made enemies. I think instead of Abi Kimmi will be brought to the end because she is so bland I can't imagine her getting any votes. 

 

I am not sure what you mean by "producer placement" in regards to Abi being on this season. I mean, yes, she was put on the ballot because of the drama they knew she would cause. No doubt about that but the same thing can be said for Kass or for players like Shane and Stephanie who didn't make the final cast.  But Abi is very popular among the fan base and that is why she ultimately ended up in the show.

 

As far as Spencer's winning chances go if he is in a F3 with Jeremy or Kelley he loses in my opinion.  With neither of those two he wins fairly easily.

[TheFinalRose]

I am not sure what you mean by "producer placement" in regards to Abi being on this season. I mean, yes, she was put on the ballot because of the drama they knew she would cause. No doubt about that but the same thing can be said for Kass or for players like Shane and Stephanie who didn't make the final cast.  But Abi is very popular among the fan base and that is why she ultimately ended up in the show.

 

 

I thought there was some "fine print" in the voting instructions that gave the producers final say on who made up the cast, leaving the door open for them to sprinkle in nasties who might not have topped the voting charts -- like Abi Maria and Kass -- for drama. I don't remember if this point was ever definitely proved or disproved, but Abi's inclusion in this cast has always been suspect in my eyes.

[pennben]

The fine print issue was addressed. Producers said the lawyers never should have put that language in (though it is stanndard fare) and it was removed and rendered inoperative. Producers control was at the level of who went on the ballot.

[Skeeter22]

Abi and Kass are two of the most visible female villains the show has had in years. They were pretty much guaranteed to get voted on. Kass, and to a lesser extent Abi, are actually very popular in other parts of the fandom. They are also memorable, and that name recognition made them more likely to get votes from casual fans who were forced to vote for 10 people to complete the ballot.

[LanceM]

If the producers were going to step in and cast who they wanted than Shane would have been on this season. I can see them salivating at the thought of putting Shane and Abi on the same tribe.

[LadyChatts]

If the producers were going to step in and cast who they wanted than Shane would have been on this season. I can see them salivating at the thought of putting Shane and Abi on the same tribe.

 

Don't forget Teresa.  The fact that she and Shane didn't make it makes me believe fans really did have the say (plus, I believe Probst would have welcomed back Brad with open arms).  But I think everyone thought Teresa would be a lock, and we know Probst really likes her.  I believe she's been on the short list for a lot of these returnee seasons.

[slowpoked]

The fact that she and Shane didn't make it makes me believe fans really did have the say (plus, I believe Probst would have welcomed back Brad with open arms). 

Joe and Culppepper in the same season?! That's most probably Probst's teenage dream.

[Zuleikha]

OK, not Jeremy or Tasha but I can see Spencer voting for her because she played the underdog role well and Spencer knows how hard that is.

If Kelley is at FTC next to Keith/Kimmi, I think she may get Jeremy's vote... maybe even Tasha depending on how Tasha is voted off. Jeremy/Tasha seem to view Keith/Kimmi as floaters. Even if they view Kelley as a floater, too, she's got the strongest resume of the three. Remember that by FTC, her second idol is going to have been pulled out. Jeremy will probably also tell people at Ponderosa how hard the idols were to find this year, so the jury is likely to have a better idea of exactly what Kelley accomplished to get her first one.

 

If Kelley's up against Spencer, there's no way they vote for her over Spencer, though... well, maybe if he really backstabs them to cause a boot. 

 

I don't think a Keith/Kimmi/Tasha f3 is very likely with the current set of relationships, but that's the funniest one for me to think of. I'm really not sure who would win in that scenario. 

[willpwr]

Jeremy's not sandbagging challenges. He was asked on twitter and pretty much admitted some challenges just aren't his thing. He's never been a challenge beast tbh. Keith is much better at challenges. Joe isn't the only player that told Kelley she was getting voted out. According to a behind the scenes blog, Kelley was told by a few players she was going home and that they didn't see the harm in telling her since they thought there was no way she had an idol. I don't know why Joe gets so much credit tbh as far as her still being there, she saved herself by being smart and keeping her idol to herself. He tried to protect her in the beginning but he gives up pretty fast unless it's a challenge , she saved him at one point but he pretty much admitted that HE changed after the merge and started ignoring the girls unlesd it was convenient for him. Jeremy has been brought up a few times to be voted out but not as first option. Oh and Kelley didn't pick who went on this reward, Keith did, which he so awesomely explained his picks so not sure how she screwed up the picks.

Edited December 12, 2015 by willpwr

[LadyChatts]

Joe said he wanted to work with the girls, but that at the merge people did not want to work with Kass.  Tasha had more support, and then the spat between Ciera/Savage happened so it put her on the outs.  Kelley and Abi were already on the outs.  So he didn't have much choice but to go with the numbers.  Plus, I can see where Joe might have felt safer sticking with the alphas and having more of a shield (even if it did him no good in the end).  Also, he did say he would have tried to work with Wentworth again, but things went sour between them after that vote where Savage was blindsided.

Edited December 12, 2015 by LadyChatts

[RedheadZombie]

Huh? When did Kelley have a hostile fixation on Joe?  You might be confusing her with Stepehen.

 

I think some of Abi's comments are being attributed to Kelley.

 

I was torn watching this episode between wanting Spencer to win immunity and wanting him voted off so he could go to Ponderosa and eat a dozen cheeseburgers.  Dude is painfully thin.  The last guy I remember getting that scary looking was Woo which makes me think it affects ones ability to make rational decisions concerning with whom to sit next to at final tribal.  I don't get Spencer's decision to go with Jeremy/Tasha unless he knew Abi was absolutely not to be trusted, which is a distinct possibility.

 

Most of the Australia cast looked pretty horrible, but I remember Nick being skeletal.  When Skupin fell in the fire, there's a scene where Nick just kind of stands there saying, "he's burnt real bad", and he looks and sounds like a zombie.  Skupin blamed breathing in the smoke for his fainting, but I wonder if it was truly starvation.

 

Ah, yes...

Abi's "You'll never find me in Brazil"...

...to which I would've kicked in some cash on my own for someone to come back with, "Whaaat, you think we'd come LOOK...?"

;>

 

The line was cute, but I thought she meant:  You'll never find me in Brazil because I live in the US.

 

Re:  Keith

 

 

I am not even a fan of Keith, but why?   How is Joe better than Keith when it comes to strategy?  Keith has outlasted Joe in the results in two different seasons.  Keith is going to make it much farther than Joe did, yet again. 

 

Sagittarius comes after Scorpio, not before.  Abi's on the cusp before.   There's no way that Abi is a Sagittarius.  

 

Abi-Maria Gomes ‏@theabimaria  13h13 hours ago Santa Monica, CA

His wife and daughter are. He knows what up. I am on the cusp. Libra/Scorpio.

 

Abi-Maria Gomes ‏@theabimaria  13h13 hours ago Santa Monica, CA

To Jeremy Collins

I wouldn't date you either

 

I'm not a Joe fan, and I think he and Keith both have pretty poor strategy.  But boy, Keith really seems to be oblivious at times.  Voting for Tasha because he didn't bother to find out who the target was last week, was stupid for two reasons.  One, he made a potential enemy of Tasha who seems to be in the dominant alliance, and two, if you don't know the target, it's very often because you're going home.

 

And then tonight, he was the only person bragging they knew what was going on.  He knew, and he knew he was voting with the majority.  There was one moment where he kind of had to cut himself off with his hand over his mouth, and I swear he was about to say "Stick to the plan". 

 

I don't understand Abi's tweets.  The first one sounds like a friendly tweet towards Jeremy, and the second let's him know she would never date him.  I don't think a married man with two children and a pregnant wife needs to be informed Abi would never date him.

 

I am a Scorpio, and let me tell the non-Scorpios out there - it's not a lot of fun.   I say I don't believe in Astrology, but reading a good break down of Scorpio is like reading the story of my life.

 

I feel like Kelley has been getting the blame for things other people have said.  She didn't say "payback's a bitch", did she?  I thought that was Abi.  And someone said Spencer let Kelley's "no goat should get to the end" argument get to him, but I sure don't remember that argument coming from her.

 

I think you're right.  Abi said the following when returning to camp after Joe was evicted:  "Tribal tonight was definitely a spectacle *jazz hands*.  Joe got voted out.  Paybacks a bitch. I don't feel like anybody has much compassion towards Joe, at the moment, and everybody is very glad that he has gone home packing.  You know what?  Good riddance."  All of this is speaking to the tribe, and her talking heads intercut. 

[RedheadZombie]

I think it was simply in realizing that Spencer didn't stick with her and Keith to vote out Tasha and yes, probably wondering who voted for Keith. And she was probably trying to do the math of where she could fit in if the group of Spencer, Jeremy, Tasha and Kimmi really is as tight as some assume (I don't think they are).

 

This above quote was responding to a poster speculating on Kelley's speculative look at the end of tribal.  I'm pretty much in agreement.  I think Kelley may have been as over-confident as Keith (but much better at hiding it).  For her, the vote went spectacularly bad and I'm sure she's simply trying to piece it together.  Not only did Spencer choose to go against her and she didn't realize it ahead of time, but Abi went rogue.  I feel like Kelley looked like a person who thought she was on the verge of seizing power, and then realized she really read things wrong.  I would like to think she was also realizing how pointless it is to think Abi may make a rational vote and think of her alliance.

 

There's a bonus clip ("He's Such a Nerd") that makes me for one believe Jeremy was not throwing this challenge to Spencer.

 

I haven't seen that clip, but I remain torn on this subject.  I definitely think Jeremy went in with preconceived ideas of how to keep the target off of himself.  Hiding Val's pregnancy was pretty smart.  I also wonder if the simple way that he dresses is strategy.  Unlike most players that look like him, Jeremy stays covered up most of the time.  And his clothes have looked pretty baggy since the beginning, which added to the affect that he wasn't a threat.  He's also stated that he toned down his workout regime to be less ripped on the show.  So these things seemed to be very much on his mind.  And even if Jeremy is simply down playing his abilities versus overtly throwing the challenges, I think it's a smart decision.  Joe was targeted specifically for his athletic abilities.  People are realizing that Keith is a huge physical threat.  And somehow Jeremy manages to not only win nothing, but to also not even come close.  And while Jeremy remains under the radar, Spencer is somehow stepping forward as a challenge threat.  Spencer ...... the one who let Stephen beat him in a physical challenge.

 

But as I said far upthread, I really think players with high muscle mass (Jeremy, Tasha) tolerate starvation even poorer than the rest.  I'm trying to remember muscled up guys who killed the challenges and I think of Colby.  But then I also remember that while the rest of his tribe faced starvation, Colby won all the reward challenges and ate well.  He was competing for immunity against people with one foot in the grave.  I think the greater advantage in the challenges is how aerobically fit you are, and then how mentally tough you are.  I have to believe that Jeremy, as a firefighter, is both of these.  I have a friend who was a firefighter.  The qualification test included gearing up on the hottest day of the year, and carrying a dummy with the weight of an adult up and down several flights of stairs.  Unlike police officers who quite frequently become out of shape, I think firefighters are required to stay fit.  And no offense to police officers, I have one in the family.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Ugh.  You're just turning me on about Jeremy even more. 

 

The line was cute, but I thought she meant:  You'll never find me in Brazil because I live in the US.

 

I know because of cooksdelight that Abi lives in the U.S. so I know what you mean.  However, it was such a hilarious line no matter how you slice it.  Her smug, self-satisfied grin and looking away as if she had some mischievous secret.  I'd never try to find anyone in Brazil.   It's only the 5th most populous country in the world!  Like I said before, it was very much like the tagline of a movie.  So funny.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[KimberStormer]

Actually, I thought she seemed offended.  MIffed, not amused.  I know Keith didn't mean it that way, but I could see how it might come off as "you're not an American" even though as far as I know Abi (and everyone on Survivor) is a US citizen.  Even if you're not quite as sensitive to perceived slights as Abi is out there.  Like when people ask non-white people "where are you really from", even though the answer really is Sheboygan.

[Sarahsmile416]

I think some of Abi's comments are being attributed to Kelley.

Most of the Australia cast looked pretty horrible, but I remember Nick being skeletal. When Skupin fell in the fire, there's a scene where Nick just kind of stands there saying, "he's burnt real bad", and he looks and sounds like a zombie. Skupin blamed breathing in the smoke for his fainting, but I wonder if it was truly starvation.

The line was cute, but I thought she meant: You'll never find me in Brazil because I live in the US.

I'm not a Joe fan, and I think he and Keith both have pretty poor strategy. But boy, Keith really seems to be oblivious at times. Voting for Tasha because he didn't bother to find out who the target was last week, was stupid for two reasons. One, he made a potential enemy of Tasha who seems to be in the dominant alliance, and two, if you don't know the target, it's very often because you're going home.

And then tonight, he was the only person bragging they knew what was going on. He knew, and he knew he was voting with the majority. There was one moment where he kind of had to cut himself off with his hand over his mouth, and I swear he was about to say "Stick to the plan".

I don't understand Abi's tweets. The first one sounds like a friendly tweet towards Jeremy, and the second let's him know she would never date him. I don't think a married man with two children and a pregnant wife needs to be informed Abi would never date him.

I am a Scorpio, and let me tell the non-Scorpios out there - it's not a lot of fun. I say I don't believe in Astrology, but reading a good break down of Scorpio is like reading the story of my life.

I think you're right. Abi said the following when returning to camp after Joe was evicted: "Tribal tonight was definitely a spectacle *jazz hands*. Joe got voted out. Paybacks a bitch. I don't feel like anybody has much compassion towards Joe, at the moment, and everybody is very glad that he has gone home packing. You know what? Good riddance." All of this is speaking to the tribe, and her talking heads intercut.

Perhaps...but then again, Joe was winning challenge after challenge after challenge and in their mind no one had a shot with him around (whether that was true or not and I don't think it is). I think that sometimes winning engenders some resentment like "if it wasn't for you, I could win" type feelings. It is possible that Kelley was being swayed as well by the Joe-Abi contretemps. Him winning just added fuel to the fire in her mind. She also resented him long before for not having the cojones to vote out Stephen. The difference, I suspect, between Abi and Kelley is that Kelley has since remembered what led the two to be friendly in the first place. They seem to be friendly on social media which is why I suspect whatever resentment she bore towards Joe was game-based and didn't bleed into real-life. The same cannot be said about Abi (and perhaps for good reason, I don't know)...but no one is expected to like everyone they played with.

However, I don't know how this turns into "Joe is getting a good-guy edit when he's really a Dan-type villain". Yes, they may not put in some of the less-savory aspects of his personality, but let's face it, not all of us have great aspects of our personalities and it doesn't mean we are jerk-offs being edited because of "good looks" to look like good people. Because as I've said, aside from Kelley's possible in-game resentment of Joe and Abi's clear dislike of him, I saw no evidence of anyone else jumping up and singing "ding dong the witch is dead" when he was voted out.

[NutMeg]

If I ever was on Survivor, I would be delighted that people didn't remember my name. I might even mumble something different each time someone asked me what my name was. And change the mumble each time. Until I made it to FTC, if I even made it, and then I'd be sure to adress each juror's question starting with "Well, X, when you told me 'NutMeg', I want to do such and such", "Y, when you told me 'NutMeg', so and so have to go", "Z, remember when you said 'NutMeg, that player - which my dream F2/3 - had to go'" - you get it, basically burn my name so much in their brain that they wouldn't remember any other name of people eligible for the final vote :-) 

 

Of course, this might be mute in a returnee season...

[JudyObscure]

Actually, I thought she seemed offended.  MIffed, not amused.  I know Keith didn't mean it that way, but I could see how it might come off as "you're not an American" even though as far as I know Abi (and everyone on Survivor) is a US citizen.  Even if you're not quite as sensitive to perceived slights as Abi is out there.  Like when people ask non-white people "where are you really from", even though the answer really is Sheboygan.

If that's the situation, Abi has no one but herself to blame.  If she wants to be viewed as American she should quit talking about her, "Big Brazilian ass," and her "Fiery Brazilian temper," etc.

[Oholibamah]

If that's the situation, Abi has no one but herself to blame. If she wants to be viewed as American she should quit talking about her, "Big Brazilian ass," and her "Fiery Brazilian temper," etc.

Not that I think that's what happened between her/Keith, but being proud of her heritage doesn't make it okay for people to assume she's not American.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Oholibamah

[peachmangosteen]

I don't understand Abi's tweets.  The first one sounds like a friendly tweet towards Jeremy, and the second let's him know she would never date him.  I don't think a married man with two children and a pregnant wife needs to be informed Abi would never date him.

 

Jeremy said in this ep that he wouldn't date Abi, which was a weird comment for him to make at the time imo, so Abi was just responding to that.

[JudyObscure]

Not that I think that's what happened between her/Keith, but being proud of her heritage doesn't make it okay for people to assume she's not American.

Well I wouldn't think it was okay to assume that everyone I met on a game show filmed in Cambodia was American.  Yes, it's a show made for American TV, but Juan Pablo was the star of "The Bachelor," and I don't think he was American.  As far as I know, anyway.   I don't make it a point to ask everyone I meet for citizenship papers, If they speak with, say, an Irish accent  and keep referring to themselves as  Irish,  I'll probably take their word for it.

[LanceM]

In order to be on Survivor you have to be an American citizen. It is a requirement. Whether or not Keith is aware of that who knows.

Edited December 12, 2015 by LanceM

[KimberStormer]

Here's an explanation of what I'm thinking about, in song! 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11Qg3svxrug

 

Obviously I have no idea what Abi was thinking at that moment, it's just how it struck me.  I'm probably making things up!

[truthaboutluv]

Well I wouldn't think it was okay to assume that everyone I met on a game show filmed in Cambodia was American.  Yes, it's a show made for American TV, but Juan Pablo was the star of "The Bachelor," and I don't think he was American.  As far as I know, anyway.   I don't make it a point to ask everyone I meet for citizenship papers, If they speak with, say, an Irish accent  and keep referring to themselves as  Irish,  I'll probably take their word for it.

 

Juan Pablo is American. He was born in the U.S. but his family moved back to Venezuela where he was raised until he came back to the U.S. for college and attended on a soccer scholarship. 

[cooksdelight]

Abi's parents live in San Francisco, she has been a U.S. citizen for some time. My take on it is that she thought "Keith...I don't live in Brazil, you know that."

[JudyObscure]

Okay, thanks. 

[rose711]

It's not true that Spencer had no one at the merge. He had Stephen who he had been working with pre-game on stuff like a fake Twitter account to troll the other second chance players. (That's from Stephend RHAP exit interview)<br /><br />Stephen felt his pre game relationship with Spencer was so tight that he never questioned Spencers loyalty.<br /><br />Spencer really hasn't been playing a good game. He hasnt got anyone on the jury who would vote for him over Jeremy. He needed to get Jeremy out not Stephen. I think Soencer could have beaten Stephen, but no way he can beat Jeremy.

Kelley is the one who should have buyers remorse at losing Joe. He was keeping her side informed. Now he's gone and she is on the wrong side of the vote. I expect that to last until she's gone.

[truthaboutluv]

For the record, most of my comments are based on what was shown so I'm not going to comment on what might have happened pregame based on what an eliminated contestant said in their interview. Also, pregame alliances don't always work or last especially if the players end up on separate tribes and perhaps bond with other people. So once again, based on what the edit showed during the season, I believe Spencer came into the merge with no strong alliance. 

[Zuleikha]

So once again, based on what the edit showed during the season, I believe Spencer came into the merge with no strong alliance.

Spencer was not uniquely disadvantaged in this, however. If you're going to discount Ta Keo 5 as an alliance for Spencer, then almost no one came in with a strong alliance. People simply came into merge with potential alliances based on the relationships they'd been building over the course of the game. 

 

Spencer was fortunate to have relationships with Jeremy/Stephen/Kimmi and Kass/Ciera that gave him good options at merge. He was also fortunate that Savage and Wigles were still willing to work with him even though he'd been part of the great Woo betrayal (and how interesting that Savage was so very angry at Kass/Ciera but not angry at all at Spencer. I'm sure gender played zero role in this).

[truthaboutluv]

Okay one more time because this is getting circular. I am not saying that Spencer hadn't worked with anyone or talked to anyone ever. I am saying that compared to some others (yes like a Jeremy who seemed very tight with Stephen and Kass and Ciera who seemed very tight) he didn't have that, so he didn't have any solid connection. He was very close to Shirin apparently and she got voted out second in a vote that came down between him and her. Wentworth was happy to work with him before the numbers flipped in the tribe and after the Shirin vote the tribes were shuffled and they ended up on separate tribes. 

 

And then yes, he tried to make inroads with Jeremy and Stephen which seemed to work well enough since the one time that tribe went to tribal council the vote came down to Monica and Wigglesworth but note, Jeremy and Stephen and Kimmi didn't even bother telling Spencer about the Monica blindside because they didn't need him to make that happen and in my opinion, that was indicative of where he really stood with that group of three. And then another shuffle happens and the tribe was MORE than ready to boot him until Ciera thought, "wait a minute, why is Savage throwing my name around so easily" and then she and Kass worked with him to make the Woo blindside happen. 

 

So once again, I am not suggesting no one was willing to work with or talk with Spencer ever but that he came into the merge without a solid partner and kind of just had to search around and figure out where the numbers really were and try to fall in line with that. 

[LanceM]

Well according to Kelley on her periscope this week she and Spencer apparently have been aligned for awhile something that has not been shown to the viewers.  That is why she looked so pissed after the tribal the other night because Spencer backstabbed her.  The editing this season has been so confusing.

[truthaboutluv]

They did show Kelley and Spencer aligned early in the season when they were in the same tribe and when Varner managed to change the numbers that put Spencer and Shirin at the bottom, Kelley stated clearly in a TH that she wanted to work with Spencer but the numbers changed somehow and she just had to protect herself. So I can buy that they were aligned at the beginning but with the double tribal switch ups and having to protect themselves,

 

I don't know that I buy that they were tightly aligned by the point we're at in the season - willing to work together when it suited them both, sure but closely aligned I don't know. But maybe they are and for all the talk of Spencer being stupid to vote out Abi this week, that Final 3 promise of him, Wentworth and Keith really will come to pass. 

[interesting]

Well according to Kelley on her periscope this week she and Spencer apparently have been aligned for awhile something that has not been shown to the viewers.  That is why she looked so pissed after the tribal the other night because Spencer backstabbed her.  The editing this season has been so confusing.

I don't understand THAT part, she should have been really pissed when he tried to vote her out during Savage's elimination when her idol came into play.

 

And I'm happy about the result, oy vey, she was hard to take, even in small doses.