S02.E10: 210

[Tara Ariano]

Noah grapples with some essential questions. Meanwhile, Alison begins to doubt a recent ambition, and renewed interactions with the Lockhart brothers force her to consider a harrowing possibility.

[Primetimer]

Say this for Noah: he is getting much more efficient about torpedoing his relationships, as he drags his feet about finally giving marriage a second go with Alison.

Read the story

[AmandaPanda]

I was definitely not expecting there to be such a huge time jump between the two episodes.

 

The main thing that hasn't changed: Noah is still an asshole. I'm so sick of hearing Noah complain about how he's such a good man, but everybody hates him. He doesn't get a prize for only cheating on his wife once. That's not admirable.

 

I definitely did not see Alison becoming a doctor. Scotty is as destructive as ever. I loved seeing how happy and put-together Cole seems to be.

 

Now, I wonder who is the more unreliable narrator. Did Noah even stay at therapy? Or did he just not tell Alison that he stayed there?

[ScoobieDoobs]

I got that Noah was being cagey.  And given that Cynthia was making judgey eyes at him thru his lone therapy session, I bet slimy Noah thought Alison might pick up on something, even if Cynthia didn't let on anything specific.

 

So Ullah & Helen are a couple now?  Hmmm.  Is he gonna be calling her a needy bitch behind her back?

 

Was trying to determine where Alison's & Noah's apartment is.  Looks like Tribeca to me.  Thought I saw Broadway in the background.  Could anyone tell?

 

Kinda liked Cynthia here, but I was expecting her to be interrupted by an annoying, crazy-haired chick whining about a Mr. Big.

Still think Colin Donnell is a crappy actor.  Good thinkin' killing Scotty off, Treem.

[truthaboutluv]

It's late, so I'll keep this short and probably have more to say tomorrow. My stream froze for much of Noah's part but I caught the last minutes of his therapy session with the woman and I feel like I didn't miss much. Noah's pontificating about good vs. great men and trying to sound all deep and complex to excuse the fact that he's just simply a selfish, narcissistic asshole was quite honestly the best comedy of the hour. And his trying to make this about his not being able to be a great writer without being a selfish asshole...once again, just laughable. 

 

I guess the writers could throw a last minute curve-ball just to screw with the viewers but it sure looks like a done deal that this kid is Cole's. And it looks like Alison contemplated telling him when she realized Scotty might have put it together and would likely try to hold it over her head, but she chickened out at the last minute. You know, Alison and Cole's scene in the bar could have been really beautiful since they did have this nice warmth between them. But all I kept thinking is that she's keeping the man's child from him so again, as with last week, fuck her. May her little house of cards come tumbling down which let's face it is already happening. The fantasy she chased with Noah is a freaking joke.

 

I love that Noah wasn't even fully divorced from Helen and yet he and Alison are already in couple's counseling. Again, love story for the ages those two. And that ending scene in Noah's version could not have been more sterile and screamed unhappy couple in their perfect shiny apartment that from the outside looking in seems so perfect and great. Also, Alison really sees herself as a victim doesn't she? When Luisa walked in, my first instinct was to go, "why she is being such an unnecessary cold bitch..." and then I quickly remembered that this is Alison's version. So of course she remembers Luisa being a bit short and curt and looking at her with slight disdain because someone is always being mean to poor little wounded Alison. 

 

One interesting difference in the versions, and they haven't done this as much this season as opposed to last season. Noah in his version basically told Alison he stayed for the session without her. However, in Alison's version he said he went to see a movie and he brings up the no longer going to therapy that he mentions in his version but to the therapist. And he immediately changes his mind on that.

 

Also his whole demeanor is casual and happy and shinier in Alison's version but in his, he is sullen, wearing a dark suit, the apartment is mostly in darkness while Alison alone washes the dishes. In Alison's version Trevor and Stacy are happily playing and there's activity and fun in the apartment. Thought that was interesting. 

Edited December 7, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[ScoobieDoobs]

Back to labeled POV's, eh?

 

So in Noah's POV, he said Alison was in med school.  But in Alison's POV, when she asked the instructor about dropping the course, he said she'd need it to get into med school.  Um, what gives?

 

Wow, Cole/Joshua actually not being angsty/sulky.  Er, huh????  Man, I rubbed my eyes in disbelief -- he was smiling!  What the what??

Edited December 7, 2015 by ScoobieDoobs

[LoveLeigh]

I am so fed up with every episode of this show ending with a cliffhanger: some huge news is ushered in and we have to wait a week to find out what is going on. I think these sort of endings are a huge reason to binge watch the entire seasons of so many shows: The Affair and Homeland are good examples. 

 

The Sopranos and Mad Men were great shows and I cannot recall each episode ending with a cliffhanger. The plots moved along and each episode was a great story. 

Edited December 8, 2015 by DakotaLavender

[mjc570]

 

he's just simply a selfish, narcissistic asshole

 

Absolutely, yet I have always found him to be insanely sexy, although I have no idea why.  Please don't judge me! 

[Moncheechee]

I am so fed up with every episode of this show ending with a cliffhanger: some huge news is ushered in and we have to wait a week to find out what is going on. I think these sort of endings are a huge reason to binge watch the entire seasons of so many shows: The Affair and Homeland are good examples. 

 

The Sopranos and Mad Men were a great shows and I cannot recall each episode ending with a cliffhanger. The plots moved along and each episode was a great story. 

 

I didn't think this episode ended in a cliffhanger.  Richard Shiff, TV Attorney at Law's "well, well, well," and long face kind of told the story, if you ask me.

[VioletMarx]

Was trying to determine where Alison's & Noah's apartment is. Looks like Tribeca to me. Thought I saw Broadway in the background. Could anyone tell?

.

The Alison/Scotty scene was indeed shot in TriBeCa at the corner of Varick and N. Moore.

[Irlandesa]

Before I say anything, all my love to the recappers for saying Noah is "kaizening" his infidelity.  One of my bosses was a huge Six Sigma fan so that was a fun little bit of nostalgia for me even if all the business/management theories I've been exposed to over the years want to make me want to bash my head in at times.

 

So in Noah's POV, he said Alison was in med school.  But in Alison's POV, when she asked the instructor about dropping the course, he said she'd need it to get into med school.  Um, what gives?

I deleted it so I can't go back and watch what he said but I think either Noah misspoke or didn't fully understand what Allison was doing.  He did mention she's in an "accelerated" program. I'm guessing Allison is pursuing her bachelor's degree and taking the courses she may have missed while getting her nursing degree that she needs to take to enter med school and/or pass the MCAT.  I'm guessing they just run together for Noah.

[grumpypanda]

I don't understand why it would take almost two years for the divorce to be finalized. I briefly worked for a divorce attorney and normally once both parties agree to the terms of the divorce it takes about six weeks for the final order to be issued (at least in my state it does.)

Anyway, I hate Alison more and more each episode. It takes a real piece of shit to lie about your child's paternity. I mean Noah loves Joanie, I guess. Speaking of the baby, the dada at the end sounded so fake. Couldn't they find an actual recording of a baby talking?

Louisa looked awesome at the bar and I'm amazed that Cole was actually smiling.

I doubt that Alison will ever make it to med school. If she can't handle being a nurse how does she plan on being a doctor. If she shows up next season working with Helen's doctor I'm going to be pissed. Hands off Helen's new man, homewrecker!

Edited December 7, 2015 by grumpypanda

[racked]

My guess is Allison doesn't know who is the father and just knows there is a chance it's Cole. Still selfish of her to not find out and tell him if he does have a child.

But I liked everyone this episode. Even Noah which is shocking to me. He's not a good man but some part of him wants go be a good father. I wonder if the divorce taking so long is part of the unreliable narrator theme? Like he actually got the divorce settled long ago but was stalling a long time and let himself off the hook a bit in his memory.

I liked the detail about Allison thinking he skipped therapy and went to the movies. He said he'd go see Captain America in the voicemail he left her, and his being at therapy or missing it was irrelevant to where her mental focus was so she didn't really pay attention to the fact that he did go.

So Ali was able to buy a huge TriBeCa pad with just a portion of the sale of her montauk home? Hmmm

Edited December 7, 2015 by racked

[EyesGlazed]

So Miranda and Steve must be doing pretty well, maybe Steve owns a few bars now, so Miranda quit law and became a shrink, inspired by her many years of listening to the rantings of Carrie and Samantha and Charlotte, and . . . what?  Sorry.  I fell into a SATC fugue state.  I do like seeing Cynthia Nixon in anything.

 

Lordy I am sick of Alison's hanging-open mouth.  Even in her classroom, she stands there like a gaping fish.  My grandmother used to tell us kids that if we kept our mouths hanging open we'd catch flies.  I suppose this habit of Alison's / the actress's is supposed to show how lost and at sea she is, but it's just too annoying when she does it all the time.

 

Helen really ends up seeing that doctor??  What about all his Tinder dates and horror at watching TV with her kids?  Well, if she just wants a hot fun guy to go on trips with, I guess he'll do.

 

Cole and Luisa looked great.  I wonder what Alison was planning to do, tell Cole about Joanie's paternity and then ask him to cover for her?  That would figure.

[KittyS]

Ugh! The nurse wanting to "better" herself by becoming a doctor is such a cliche. Why not have Allison continue her studies so she can become a nurse practitioner? Maybe I'm taking it too personally, but this is a standard plot device on lots of medical dramas. Also, Alison doesn't exactly strike me as the intellectually curious type.<br /><br />Also, Noah is a horny scumbag. Scotty is a deranged junky con artist. Joanie is a shitty baby name.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Sheesh, that Jon Gottlief is such a freakin' blowhard windbag.  Why does he get the big bucks?

 

I liked Cynthia's office.  I'd spill my guts there too.  But no interruptions from Carrie, please.  Maybe from Steve, but only if he's still cute & talks in that adorable baby voice.

 

Will we ever see Whitney again?  Is she screeching & whining in Williamstown?  Is the gal who gave her the college tour still taking her to Entourage fuck parties?  Hmmmm.

 

The Alison/Scotty scene was indeed shot in TriBeCa at the corner of Varick and N. Moore.

 

Wow, good call.  Thought I spotted Hudson, but some blocks on Hudson & Varick look a bit similar.  Anyhoo, here's the building.  5 beds is going for 9 mil.

 

https://www.cityrealty.com/nyc/tribeca/the-atalanta-25-north-moore-street/5438

 

Guess Alison did nicely selling granny's place.  And yeah, yeah, sure, sure, Cole ain't gonna take the dough.  He'd rather do spotty construction work.  Yeah, right.  Let's see how long Cole's smiley attitude lasts & if he morphs quickly back into the usual Pacey-like angsty/sulky shit.  Seriously, I didn't recognize Cole smiling.  Wonder if Joshua had a stunt double for this.

 

Ugh, more unsexy Alison/Noah sex?  Oy, please make it stop, Treem.

Edited December 7, 2015 by ScoobieDoobs

[izabella]

So Ali was able to buy a huge TriBeCa pad with just a portion of the sale of her montauk home? Hmmm

 

Was it confirmed that Allison bought it?  I thought she told Scotty that it was Noah's money that bought that place?

 

 

Cole and Luisa looked great.  I wonder what Alison was planning to do, tell Cole about Joanie's paternity and then ask him to cover for her?  That would figure.

 

I wondered that, too.  If Louisa hadn't come in, and Allison told Cole the baby was his, what did she expect to happen then? 

[ScoobieDoobs]

Was it confirmed that Allison bought it?  I thought she told Scotty that it was Noah's money that bought that place?

 

Would you tell some drugged-out/junkie scuzzball, who's looking to squeeze money from you, that you had tons of dough to buy a fancy-shmancy place?  At this point, all Noah's done is written one book that has sold well.  Does he have enough dough to buy a place in a building where apts. go for 9 mil?  Kinda doubt it.

Edited December 7, 2015 by ScoobieDoobs

[izabella]

I might tell the scuzzball, yes, it's my place and that's why I don't have any more money for your nightclub. 

 

I think she contributed to the apartment, but I think Noah also paid for part of it.  They were already in the apartment when Allison's mom visited for Thanksgiving, and at that point, her Montauk house was still in escrow so she didn't have any money yet. 

[preeya]

What was in the plastic bag delivered to Richard Schiff? I replayed the scene multiple times, but couldn't make it out.

Edited December 7, 2015 by preeya

[izabella]

It was the baby's pacifier and DNA test results. 

 

What could those results say?  Unless they had both Noah's and Cole's DNA to check it against, how would they know who the father is?  All they had was the pacifier.

[DiabLOL]

What was in the plastic bag delivered to Richard Schiff? I replayed the scene multiple times, but couldn't make it out.

It's Joanie's pacifier, they ran a DNA paternity test thinking Scottie was the dad.

[izabella]

Did they have Scotty's DNA?

Edited December 7, 2015 by izabella

[DiabLOL]

It was the baby's pacifier and DNA test results.

What could those results say? Unless they had both Noah's and Cole's DNA to check it against, how would they know who the father is? All they had was the pacifier.

This has been driving me crazy. I'm pretty sure we didn't see Alison collecting samples from not only Noah but Scotty either.

[VioletMarx]

Helen could have supplied DNA of any kind from one of her four kids and the lab could've compared that to the baby's pacifier to see if they have the same father.

[DiabLOL]

Helen could have supplied DNA of any kind from one of her four kids and the lab could've compared that to the baby's pacifier to see if they have the same father.

Ugh! I can't believe I said Alison instead of Helen! Anyhow, I'd still want to see her collect those samples as well.

[chocolatine]

I was surprised that Cynthia Nixon didn't say anything when Noah was boasting about changing diapers and doing dishes as a way to "make up" missing the birth to Alison like he was making such a huge sacrifice. That's what being an equal partner in parenting entails, asshole. I guess she's used to rich jerks paying her to make them feel better about themselves.

 

I thought Alison was initially going to tell Cole that Joanie might be his, but when he told her he was marrying Luisa and she saw how happy he was she decided not to jeopardize that. Perhaps she had also thought that getting back with Cole would be a possibility if Joanie was his, but when she found out he was getting married, that door closed. Either way it was wrong not to tell him, but she *may* have done it for unselfish reasons for once.

 

I'm surprised Helen is still with Dr. Asshole and he's even accompanying her to Noah's trial. I was 100% sure he'd never call her again.

 

Can someone tell me, are DNA test results binary, or do they recognize partial relatedness? In other words, assuming Gottlief ran the pacifier against Scotty's DNA, would the result just be negative - since he's not the father - or would it say "negative, but the two people are related"? (I suck at biology, can you tell?)

Edited December 7, 2015 by chocolatine

[Glade]

I went into this episode thinking it was the season finale only to find in the last seconds that instead of the driver being revealed, there are actually 12 episodes this season, which is good...

 

was moved by Noah's therapy session, particularly when he started talking about his parents.  Many children of alcoholics grow up feeling that their role is take care of others.  With Noah, he very literally had to take care of his dying mother all on his own as a teenager while his father went off and got drunk all the time, so it's even bigger.  Obviously he hadn't worked through and healed all of that by the time he got married at 21 or so and then started having kids with Helen. 

 

So it seems like eventually he felt sort of this same pattern arising again--like he was taking care of everything and everyone else, but what about his own needs being met?  The therapist pointed out that in his current relationship, he can try to make room for his needs, have the sitter put in extra hours while he is away in France for a month or two.  It doesn't have to be all or nothing.  But maybe he doesn't feel totally ready to just jump in with a new family right now.  That doesn't make him a bad person either, they're just emotions to work through and everyone has their own process, so fuck the hate fest, the hypercriticism, judgements and labels.

 

I think it's good that people can have rational discussions about these issues of fidelity and monogamy, etc. outside of the hysterical, shaming morality it's usually couched in.  The therapist is totally right, that truly narcissistic people don't stop to wonder if they are the ones in the wrong, if they are a bad person.  What I didn't like is that Sarah Treem/her writers had to give Noah such a stereotypical, outdated view of masculinity and "war heroes," etc.    

 

I'm disapointed that Cole is marrying Luisa.  I find nothing likable about her character.  It looks like Alison is having trouble admitting even to herself that her daughter may biologically be Cole's.  And she's unwittingly making Noah feel bad because he doesn't realize she's looking for a resemblance to see if he's really the father.   Undoubtedly it's going to hard going back to school, I hope she can stick with it.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Glade

[Ursula Parrott]

Did I see Dr. Tinder sitting beside Helen in the courtroom as Schiff began his opening argument? I'm surprised too if it's lasted this long and it's that serious.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Guess we got our answer as to who's Joanie's daddy by Gottlief's reaction to the pacifier results?  Or will Treem make it more obvi -- maybe little Joanie will get super angsty or sulky or grow a beard?

[Ruby25]

So, I'm guessing there's no way the baby's NOT Cole's now, right? With all these meaningful facial reactions but no actual verbal words to confirm it, I have to wonder why they're still not saying it at this point. I guess the lawyer could pull some kind of stunt where he drags it out to fuck with Allison, knowing all along the real result isn't what she thinks, but it's looking like a pretty done deal. And I have to say, that does make Allison a pretty big shit, to lie about the paternity like that.

[Quiche]

Slow episode.  I found the Noah segment absolutely useless.  The best part was Allison and Cole.

It seems the glue in the Noah – Allison relationship is sex.  As long as they're having good sex, they seem to be good with each other.

But Allison does not seem to be as tuned in with Noah as she so naturally seems to be with Cole.  Also, I find Cole – Louisa pretty lame.

With the way the show ended with the lawyer opening the DNA results on the baby, it does seem the baby is not Noah's.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Quiche

[albaniantv]

Haha lots of fun comments tonite...my favorites were Dr. Tinder and the Sex and the City related comments.

 

Cynthia Nixon is one of my favorite actors and I did not find her judgemental of Noah's statements and reveals. I felt, that as the script probably indicated,  she took every one of them and pushed forward to force something else of significance to his understanding of his role as part of a couple. Their interactions made me see Noah as almost human for the first time this season. From the description of the dynamics of his childhood and marriage, it made sense to me how Noah got conflicted about husband and wife roles. The therapy session was my favorite scene this season...it was so coherent.

 

The therapy session didn't depend on conflicting memories or the ongoing unending shots of twisting mouths (Allison, Noah and Helen). It took me a long time to get used to the regime that no one ever smiles or laughs on this show. Not sure if it's because the writers are trying for maximum angst? Anyway, once in a while, lovers do share a rare smile, but largely, actors seem to have been cast by how many downturn expressions they can do -- sad, angst, unhappy, distressed, worried, bored, concerned, disappointed etc. 

 

I just got a vision of how this angst is going to end: once the DNA is revealed, Noah will return to Helen and Allison will return to Cole so everyone is raising only their own children. They will somehow battle and defeat the interlopers and naysayers. Well, that would be my show and it would wrap up next month. 

[glowbug]

I don't think the lawyer was testing the DNA against Scotty's. He's testing it against Noah's, whether directly through his own DNA (collected without his knowledge) or through someone related to him. If it comes up that Noah isn't the father then the lawyer is just going to assume it's Scotty based on the conversation that Oscar overheard.

I'm not sure if Joanie is Cole's. The show certainly wants us to think that with the birth scene and the lawyer's reaction at the end, but I could see them faking us out. if she isn't Cole's this whole "who's the daddy" storyline is a big waste of time, and I admit to being very interested to see the fallout if she isn't Noah's. I'm just not sure how Alison and Noah could come back from that, and if this is supposed to be a story of true love I don't see how they can have Joanie not be Noah's child.

[Anne Elk]

During the course of Season 2, we have now jumped forward in time almost 2 years. That's just too much. It's like the writers are bored and want to be writing a totally different story every week, Characters's emotions are whiplashing all over the place, and I feel like I can't trust that some important thing didn't happen that they skipped over.

 

I still have the same complaints about Noah -- his character now makes no sense whatsoever. All that therapy-session musing about good vs. great men and so on would be fine in a guy who is 25-35 years old. Noah is pushing 45. I was sitting there waiting for someone to point this out when Cynthia Nixon brought up Hemingway's suicide. Noah is hardly more than a decade and a half away from the age where Hemingway died! The whole thing just doesn't work. Noah has a psychological issue with fidelity ... so how was he a totally 100% faithful husband for 20 years? Was he lying about that?

 

I did notice that he claimed to Dr. Nixon that he turned Eden down all throughout his book tour, so maybe we were supposed to assume he was lying about everything else as well. And if he were lying so he wouldn't have to admit that he really does not want to be tied down with another wife and family at this point in his life, that would be believable. But once again, the show seems to be insisting otherwise -- look at the difference between how he reacts when baby Joanie interrupts sex in this episode compared to how he was when Trevor interrupted him and Helen in the first episode. 

 

As for the DNA test, the most logical thing would be for the lawyers to run the test to see if the baby is Scotty's. I'm sure they would have no problem getting access to Scotty's DNA from his blood or other evidence from the case. And if Cole really is Joanie's father, then the test would show that Joanie and Scotty are related, but not closely enough for Scotty to be the father. But that would, of course, rule out Noah as the father.

 

I get the feeling that Cole knows he might be Joanie's father but has decided not to rock the boat for reasons of his own. Don't know what they might be though. Maybe he's just that glad to be finally done with mopey Alison.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Anne Elk

[cardigirl]

Well, I enjoyed that episode. I thought the session in therapy was great, and actually had me kind of liking Noah. There's a lot of turmoil rolling around in that guy. Treem does therapy pretty well, or , at least, she makes the therapy seem very realistiic and that opinion is based on my own experience with working with a therapist. Family of Origin affects so much of why we choose what we choose.

I also saw, at least in Noah's mind, that he took ownership of being a good father, a present father and he still cares about what happens with Helen. She still influences his thoughts, as in the talk of reading obituaries and looking for clues that a man had a good life. It seems that Noah is going through what many people go through at his age, which is the realization that life is finite and how do we not squander it. He's torn between wanting to be a good man (as he thinks his father was not) and also being this very dedicated writer with no responsibilities. That's not unusual at all. I would say many men struggle with that dilemma.

And some, like Hemingway, end up suicidal.

I was a little sad, and I think he was sad and ashamed, that he has not been able to repair his relationship with Whitney. He may never be able to.

As for Alison, I'm not sure what to think of her. She clearly has doubts as to who the father of her baby really is. Seeing Scotty and seeing Scotty make a connection clarified it for her. So yeah, knowing Cole's pain at losing their son, and not telling him he may be the father, is pretty cruel and desperate. I don't know what she expected Cole to do if she revealed he might be Joanie's father, I doubt that she was hoping to get back with him. I think she was surprised to see him happy and healthy and their old connection of family gone. So she chose not to tell him, which was unselfish at this moment, but this girl is in a pickle for sure. Maybe she really did run Scotty down.

I'm glad to think of Helen having a new relationship with the doctor. Like I said, he was pretty honest with her during their 'escapade' at her brownstone, but he was also a damn fine physician is helping her and her son figure out a way to deal with the painful shots. No sugar coating for this guy. I would love to see the two of them on safari.

And Cole, I'm pretty happy he's found Luisa, but she did look stone-cold evil in Alison's mind. Ha. Hopefully she's a bit warmer than shown tonight.

Re: DNA testing, not sure how complete it can be. If Joanie is Cole's, the DNA report would show a connection to either of the brothers, right? So Gottlieb's wrong-headed theory about Alison having an affair with Scotty would start to look correct because he and Cole share similar DNA. Or would Scotty's DNA definitely prove that he is related but NOT the father? I can only go by what I've seen on TV, but I'm thinking that all the DNA test would prove is that Joanie is not related to Helen and Noah's children.

Edited December 7, 2015 by cardigirl

[Ellaria]

Well, I enjoyed that episode. I thought the session in therapy was great, and actually had me kind of liking Noah. There's a lot of turmoil rolling around in that guy...

I also saw, at least in Noah's mind, that he took ownership of being a good father, a present father and he still cares about what happens with Helen. She still influences his thoughts, as in the talk of reading obituaries and looking for clues that a man had a good life. It seems that Noah is going through what many people go through at his age, which is the realization that life is finite and how do we not squander it. He's torn between wanting to be a good man (as he thinks his father was not) and also being this very dedicated writer with no responsibilities. That's not unusual at all. I would say many men struggle with that dilemma...

...As for Alison, I'm not sure what to think of her. She clearly has doubts as to who the father of her baby really is. Seeing Scotty and seeing Scotty make a connection clarified it for her. So yeah, knowing Cole's pain at losing their son, and not telling him he may be the father, is pretty cruel and desperate. I don't know what she expected Cole to do if she revealed he might be Joanie's father, I doubt that she was hoping to get back with him. I think she was surprised to see him happy and healthy and their old connection of family gone. So she chose not to tell him, which was unselfish at this moment, but this girl is in a pickle for sure. Maybe she really did run Scotty down.

Re: DNA testing, not sure how complete it can be. If Joanie is Cole's, the DNA report would show a connection to either of the brothers, right? So Gottlieb's wrong-headed theory about Alison having an affair with Scotty would start to look correct because he and Cole share similar DNA. Or would Scotty's DNA definitely prove that he is related but NOT the father? I can only go by what I've seen on TV, but I'm thinking that all the DNA test would prove is that Joanie is not related to Helen and Noah's children.

 

To prove paternity, Joanie's DNA would have to be compared to either Noah's, Cole's or Scotty's DNA. I think that it is safe to say that Schiff didn't have access to Cole's DNA. Noah's DNA could have been accessed from Noah directly or from one of his children with Helen and would prove that Joanie is not his child. Since Scotty is dead, it is probable that Schiff ran a test using his DNA against Joanie's. In either case, it would prove that neither Noah or Scotty are the father. And yes, it would prove that Scotty is related to Joanie. At this point, Schiff knows that Scotty couldn't be Joanie's father and, presumably, makes the guess that the father is Cole.

 

I enjoyed the therapy session, too. It provided interesting insight into his thought process. Knowing what we know about Noah - that we wants to live/work in France for two years and sleep with lots of women -  I am interested in seeing how he and Alison moved from the scenes last night to the scene in last season's finale right before he was arrested. They make the decision to end couples therapy. She appears to have abandoned plans for medical school. How do they become the happy, trendy couple? When do they get married?

 

Did Alison ever consider that Joanie might be Cole's baby prior to the events of last night? It seems that the possibility didn't cross her mind until that ill-fated meeting with Scotty. Right now, she is the keeper of a devasting secret. 

[blixie]

 

I get the feeling that Cole knows he might be Joanie's father but has decided not to rock the boat for reasons of his own.

 

Thank You I thought I was the only one who picked up on that, when the baby came up, it seemed like they both knew Joanie could be Cole's, but for reasonably good reasons they don't want to bring it out in the open (Cole describing his families dysfunction, not to mention his new relationship with Luisa who can't have kids, perhaps whatever residual guilt he has about Gabriel's death, and how he thinks he failed his marriage w/Alison). I also thought thought we were meant to think Alison had been lying to herself about it, until Scotty was so smugly happy about how much Joanie looked like her daddy, she bent down and seemed to be searching for just how obvious it was to him. 

 

Noah and his therapy session were INSUFFERABLE, it was all so META, c'mon you haters can't you see he's a HUMAN BEAN?! He doesn't want to be dishonest, and yet he IS, FYI Noah we all do exactly what we WANT to do, you are lying because you are a LIAR, and you want to be a "good" husband and father, but also fuck who ever you want so you can be great? I did like that the therapist smacked him down, all taking whatever you want and being selfish doesn't make you a great man, regular every day assholes do that too, with her begging the question: guess which one you are Noah?

Narcissism manifests in many ways, one can be physically present and responsible and emotionally checked out and  a resentful fuck of a father at the same time, pretty sure that is exactly how you and Helen's *delightful* children already see you. Plus I still don't buy his narrative about his dad/mother, his sister doesn't have this baggage about their dad. No one forced him to be a self sacrificing martyr.

[Adultosaurus]

I know it's Noah's POV but I hate and am bothered by how indulgent "Cynthia" is of him.  His whole session made it seem like she was yet another woman fawning a bit over him.

[Lone Wolf]

I guess father/daughter relationships have ended for lesser reasons, and I know that we can't rely on anything that's said to be reality, and I'm the kind of guy who likes everything wrapped up in a neat little package with a bow on top, but it seems strange (especially in light of all the praise being heaped on Noah for wanting to be a good father) that a year has gone by and he hasn't seen Whitney since the hot tub incident.  That said, maybe he's reached out and she's avoiding him, but she's a kid and he's the dad. I think the onus is on him to get that fixed.  

[cardigirl]

I get the feeling that Cole knows he might be Joanie's father but has decided not to rock the boat for reasons of his own. Don't know what they might be though. Maybe he's just that glad to be finally done with mopey Alison.

Not sure what you base this on?  The only thing I've seen of Cole suspecting was in the first episode at the start of the trial when he talks to Alison and Joanie. Then he looked like he suspected, well, SOMETHING.  But in this episode, and in the bar, I don't think Cole had even the beginning of a suspicion about Joanie's paternity.  And the meeting in the bar takes place in the timeline before the start of the trial. 

I know it's Noah's POV but I hate and am bothered by how indulgent "Cynthia" is of him.  His whole session made it seem like she was yet another woman fawning a bit over him.

I didn't see this AT ALL, she was pushing him the whole way.  What I did see was that he thought she was judging him, when in fact, he was thinking she SHOULD be judging him, because he feels bad about his choices. 

[blixie]

 

Not sure what you base this on?

 

Cole and Alison share a knowing look, his look read to me like, oh that kid that you had right after we slept together, which clearly might be mine, but we won't talk about THAT. She even emphasizes the time frame (almost a year) and then I think Luisa walks in scuttling all that is unsaid between them. It's not a DEFINITE thing, but that's what I read on his face, and also in the context of them both being "happy" and having moved on with their lives at last, after so much pain.

[truthaboutluv]

I get the feeling that Cole knows he might be Joanie's father but has decided not to rock the boat for reasons of his own. Don't know what they might be though. Maybe he's just that glad to be finally done with mopey Alison.

 

Thank You I thought I was the only one who picked up on that, when the baby came up, it seemed like they both knew Joanie could be Cole's, but for reasonably good reasons they don't want to bring it out in the open

 

I didn't get that impression at all. In fact the way Cole was casually asking about the baby solidified to me that he quite literally had ZERO inkling, suspicion, question, etc. about the baby's paternity. Also yes, he was slightly tentative in asking about her but I took that as some discomfort and lingering pain over the fact that the child he and Alison shared, tragically died. Yes it seems obvious to viewers that Cole should have done the Math but I can very easily believe and understand why Cole would have never entertained the idea that Alison's kid was his.

 

Yes they slept together but Cole probably remembers that as a last moment between them because Alison was hurt over Noah. And then she went back to her life and he moved on with his and now she's getting married and has a kid with Noah. As humans, it is amazing how easily we can miss the obvious when that is not where our minds and subconscious are at all. Also, Cole really not knowing would explain that epic stare down at the end of the first episode of the season, that so many viewers were confused about and trying to understand. 

 

They make the decision to end couples therapy. She appears to have abandoned plans for medical school. How do they become the happy, trendy couple? When do they get married?

 

Were they really happy though? All we saw was Alison checking up on the baby, Noah on his laptop and she comes next to him and he talks about some meeting he has at a hotel with some actor or actress they are thinking about for the part in the movie based on Descent I assume. The police shows up and Alison's asking him to trust her when she says she'll get him out of it.

 

I remember thinking that was very interesting last season, that Alison would be asking Noah to trust her and asking him, "you believe me right?" when they supposedly were now happily married and in love. I think what we saw at the end of last season is the same relationship we're seeing now - strained, slightly uncomfortable and awkward, with the occasional great sex and decent moments. I still say Noah and Alison are like a hookup that went very, very wrong and now neither wants to just accept and admit the truth that all it was, was a hookup that's lasted much longer than it should have. 

 

In regards to the paternity, I'm with the other poster in believing that the lawyer was merely confirming whether or not Noah was the father. I doubt it would have been difficult for him to get Noah's DNA with Noah in his office multiple times to talk about his case.  I'm sure there was some bottle of water, tea cup, etc. that Noah used. The video Oscar showed him raised the possibility of the baby not being Noah's and possibly Scotty's.

 

So he probably just tested to confirm whether the baby is Noah's or not. If she is Noah's, it throws a dent in his theory of why Alison could be the one who really ran Scotty down.  If she's not, then Alison makes a great alternative suspect. I actually think the lawyer still has no clue that any of this is tied to Cole. If the baby isn't Noah's, he's probably assuming it's Scotty's based on the video. The Cole aspect likely won't come out until Alison is confronted about the video and the paternity test.

 

but it seems strange (especially in light of all the praise being heaped on Noah for wanting to be a good father) that a year has gone by and he hasn't seen Whitney since the hot tub incident.

 

I don't find that strange at all. Trust me, I know from personal experience (not me but people I know personally), parent-child relationships that have been severed for way less and where the people don't speak or see each other at all and they live in the same state. Witney is 18, so she wasn't obligated to see Noah like Stacy and Trevor are and you know Helen can't force her to do anything. And my guess is they probably both avoided telling Helen about that awkward situation. So yeah, I can very easily see how Witney avoids seeing or talking to Noah after going through something that disturbing and awkward.

Edited December 7, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[VioletMarx]

Cole and Alison share a knowing look, his look read to me like, oh that kid that you had right after we slept together, which clearly might be mine, but we won't talk about THAT. She even emphasizes the time frame (almost a year) and then I think Luisa walks in scuttling all that is unsaid between them. It's not a DEFINITE thing, but that's what I read on his face, and also in the context of them both being "happy" and having moved on with their lives at last, after so much pain.

I read it that as a mutual, bittersweet rememberance of Gabriel as they discussed Alison's new child.

I think the kid will end up being Noah's. The writers are so over the top hinting that she's Cole's, and they don't seem to be the cleverest bunch. I'm sure they're all giggling in the corner about how shocked we'll all be when they spring it on us.

Edited December 7, 2015 by VioletMarx

[grumpypanda]

I was thinking about Noah not seeing Whitney for an entire year. The hot tub incident had to happen in March or late February because Alison 's actual due date was in April so does that mean Noah didn't even go to Whitney's graduation? She was obviously still a senior in high school during the college tour episode which happened during Allison's pregnancy. I wonder what Helen thinks happened between them.

This whole paternity issue is annoying me. At this point I don't even care who killed Scotty, I just want to know who the baby daddy is. I think that deep down Alison has always known that Cole was a possibility but she wanted Joanie to be Noah's so badly that she was deep in denial.

Edited December 7, 2015 by grumpypanda

[blixie]

 

I read it that as a mutual, bittersweet rememberance of Gabriel as they discussed Alison's new child.

 

Right I think that look could have been read that way for sure (as well as many others it's LOOK afterall). I don't think either Alison or Cole has consciously confronted the possibility precisely because of how much is at stake if Joanie is Cole's, I've seen this kind of knowing denial in action, my aunt cared for her husband's kid by the other woman (who had lived in their home since she was 16) for two years, let me tell you she KNEW, not admitting something, and not knowing it or two different things. She put up with it because she didn't want to face the reality of her life blowing up if she brought it up and said it out loud.

 

I think Cole trusts that IF the baby were his, Alison would have said, that she would have checked to make sure, and since she hasn't said, best to assume the baby isn't his, and thus yes the look could have been about their shared missed opportunity in light of Alison's second chance to be a mother. Maybe on some other show that hadn't stressed my bullshit meter at least 5 times an episode, I'd go with the they have NO IDEA, none of them not a one can do basic math, but not this show it has not earned that kind of affectionate suspension of disbelief.

[Tikichick]

I'm completely fascinated by Noah's "therapy session".  For the most part I believe it didn't happen, except I can't see the guy actually being capable of honestly and truthfully digging deep enough to come up with some of the analysis on his own.  I believe he did duck out of the session and go see Captain America the way he told the therapist he was tempted to and told Allison he did do.  He also referenced Captain America in his discussion about Omar Bradley, so I suspect in his mind he made seeing the movie into research for his book.

[Constantinople]

Guess we got our answer as to who's Joanie's daddy by Gottlief's reaction to the pacifier results?  Or will Treem make it more obvi -- maybe little Joanie will get super angsty or sulky or grow a beard?

 

During a huge storm, she'll see visions of Gabriel floating outside the window, then pour her formula all over and light her crib on fire.

[LuciaMia]

"I know it's Noah's POV but I hate and am bothered by how indulgent "Cynthia" is of him."

No, I agree with you. She gave him a couple of prods, but Nixon seemed to be playing the most- non-confrontational therapist on tv.

[attica]

Can someone tell me, are DNA test results binary, or do they recognize partial relatedness?

 

The latter.  For instance, Thomas Jefferson was determined to be the father of Sally Hemings's kids by connecting her known descendants with his brother's descendants. 

 

A kudo to Nixon's performance. Such a thankless role, 'tell me how you feel about' blah blah, but she played it with an interesting intensity. I don't think she moved much in her chair, and still she managed to infuse her line readings with strength. (I guess they train counselors to ix-nay on the esticulating-jay while in session? Because I'd be sitting there with my arms folded over my chest all, 'Yeah, no, you daughter-perving douchebag.' I'd be a ...bad counselor.)

 

My, cheerful Pacey is a sight to behold! How downright weird!

Edited December 7, 2015 by attica