S01.E09: AKA Sin Bin

[Cranberry]

Just when Jessica has Kilgrave right where she wants him, Hogarth's involvement complicates the situation. Details of Kilgrave's past emerge.

[gik910]

So Jessica is really not good at plans at all.  That was amateur hour all round.  I can't figure out if it is the writing (just in this episode) or if it is true to character that everyone would drop the ball so hard.  On the one had I appreciate that none of these people are perfect, but wow that was just bad. Still loving the show though.

 

It looks like Jessica has built up a resistance-so that should make the next confrontation interesting. 

[tanita]

At this point, I think Kilgrave always has the advantage because he knows Jessica will not let someone get seriously hurt just to get him. She cares, it's her weakness. It's why he isn't dead yet and he is pushing her to the max. She didn't anticipate that the parents would try to kill him but when it happened she let it play out because she thought she was in control - just push the red button, all is good. Unfortunately, someone cut it and she had to intervene at which point everyone tried to do something and they just got in each others way. Frankly, they are all lucky they weren't all compelled to kill themselves/to stop breathing or something to that effect, and Trish was SUPER lucky that that gun has like 5/6 bullets.

 

Given that in the comics X-Men's Jean Grey is the reason Jessica resist Kilgrave, I'm glad they chose to have her ether build up tolerance or the fact that she killed an innocent person snap her out of his control for good.

[AimingforYoko]

Simpson asked for a 'Red'. Comics readers know I'm referring to.

Like a drinker building resistance to alcohol, looks like Jessica has built up a resistance to Kilgrave.

[Valerie]

Why did they have to make all three lesbian characters on the show so unlikeable and unsympathetic. Representation fail.

[calliope1975]

Why did they have to make all three lesbian characters on the show so unlikeable and unsympathetic. Representation fail.

 

Awww, I liked Pam and her wrap around, patterned dresses. She got a raw deal. 

[Sakura12]

Jessica does suck at making plans but I like that. She's not perfect, she's far from it. She's human and lets her emotions cloud her judgement. Which makes perfect sense to me after hearing what that man did to her and to Hope. She wants him to confess so badly that it's driving her crazy. It's horrible how much Killgrave destroyed her body, mind and soul. What makes it worse is that he did the same thing to Hope. That's what is hurting Jessica more. Hope is the only one that understands and why Hope trusts Jessica over anyone else. But it does look like she built up a resistance to him, which should make things interesting.

 

Hogarth has no idea, she only hears about but doesn't think about anything unless it can help her. And Simpson only wants revenge he doesn't care what Killgrave did to Jessica and to Hope. He wants revenge for himself and now will probably become a monster or something from taking those enhancement pills. 

 

I also liked her making fun of his name "Was Murdercorpse already taken?" 

[xqueenfrostine]

Why did they have to make all three lesbian characters on the show so unlikeable and unsympathetic. Representation fail.

 

I don't know, I think it's a good thing when gay and minority characters are allowed to be seriously flawed if they are flawed in ways that are unrelated to bigoted stereotypes.  Noble/Wise Gay characters are as damaging as any other stereotypes, because it turns those characters into tropes rather than characters who just happen to be gay.  And I don't find Wendy unsympathetic at all.  Blackmailing your ex is wrong, but who can blame her for fighting dirty after Jeri sicced Jessica on her?  Jeri told Jessica to do whatever it took, even holding her out of a window, to get her to sign the divorce papers.  And Pam might be morally flawed for having an affair with a married woman, but she's flawed in a way that we allow straight characters to be all the time without completely writing them off.

[zxy556575]

Why did they have to make all three lesbian characters on the show so unlikeable and unsympathetic. Representation fail.

 

I like Jeri a lot. She's awesome in her shrewd and self-interested intelligence.  I was going to call her "cunning," but no. :)

 

I'm really intrigued to see where her desire to use K to take Wendy down ends up.

 

On the one had I appreciate that none of these people are perfect, but wow that was just bad.

 

So bad! Jessica and her Messiah complex strikes again. Gah.

 

And try locking the damned warehouse door next time.

Edited November 22, 2015 by lordonia

[Cthulhudrew]

Haven't finished watching this episode yet, but holy crap- NUKE!?!?!

 

EDIT: Oh, and Jessica is the queen of bad plans. Although that ending answered a question that's been bugging me since around episode 2 or so.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Cthulhudrew

[Cranberry]

One thing I like about the lesbian characters is that their character flaws have nothing to do with their sexuality. If Jeri were male (as in the comics), these characters would barely have to change. Too many shows and movies over the years have made their "bad" lesbians bad because they're lesbians -- they've hypersexualized them, they've made them sexually frustrated (because the women they're obsessed with are straight, of course), they've made them uncomfortably flirt with or even threaten to sexually assault straight women, and on and on in that vein. It's refreshing to see lesbians who are assholes in the way that anyone could be an asshole, and it's refreshing that their sexuality is a non-issue to other characters.

 

I agree that Pam is likable, though. Her only crime is sleeping with a married woman. I also like Wendy. Yeah, she's angry and vengeful, but she feels betrayed and discarded, so that's understandable.

[Sakura12]

I actually like Pam, Wendy and Jeri all for different reasons. Pam is the most likable being that she's rarely seen and her only bad thing is sleeping with a married woman. Wendy has a right to be vengeful, Jeri is walking around with her mistress and taking her to the restaurant she proposed to her at. I didn't mind her wanting to have Jeri suffer in a way that would hurt her but not physically. And Jeri is a great morally grey character that needs to know what Killgrave could do first hand to really understand Jessica. She's a shark, like Jessica is an asshole, it's just who they are. You take 'em or leave 'em. 

[AzureOwl]

One thing I like about the lesbian characters is that their character flaws have nothing to do with their sexuality. If Jeri were male (as in the comics), these characters would barely have to change. Too many shows and movies over the years have made their "bad" lesbians bad because they're lesbians -- they've hypersexualized them, they've made them sexually frustrated (because the women they're obsessed with are straight, of course), they've made them uncomfortably flirt with or even threaten to sexually assault straight women, and on and on in that vein. It's refreshing to see lesbians who are assholes in the way that anyone could be an asshole, and it's refreshing that their sexuality is a non-issue to other characters.

 

It's pretty obvious to me that they wrote the Horgath character in such a way he could've easily been played by man and they wouldn't have had to change a single line of dialogue. At time I even think that the part was written for a man and then they changed their minds.

[AimingforYoko]

It's pretty obvious to me that they wrote the Horgath character in such a way he could've easily been played by man and they wouldn't have had to change a single line of dialogue. At time I even think that the part was written for a man and then they changed their minds.

He's a man in the comics, "Jerry".

[The Kings Foot]

wrong episode

Edited November 22, 2015 by The Kings Foot

[NorthstarATL]

It's pretty obvious to me that they wrote the Horgath character in such a way he could've easily been played by man and they wouldn't have had to change a single line of dialogue. At time I even think that the part was written for a man and then they changed their minds.

Well, gay divorce was not a "thing"  back when the comics were written, except among those of us who signed contracts, etc. and that usually only happened with kids/money involved, and I don't really recall what Hogarth's story was, except being a fat lawyer. Now, of course, we've got Divorce Equality, and the same crap straights go through is shared by us. Yay?

        Yeah, this is the second plan gone wrong. I hope the third time is the charm, at least for Hope's sake.

      I've read comics,

but have no idea what the red pill does. Pills I generally associate with Carrie Ann Moss' other big role.

[Sakura12]

I thought of the Matrix as well with the red and blue pills. 

 

I liked that they didn't change Hogarth's personality when they turned her from a male character to a female character. 

[Xenith22]

but have no idea what the red pill does

Red pills are an adrenaline/focus boost for combat purposes.   White pills bring everything back down to normal after the mission.  Blue pills were to reduce pain and to try to manage his mental stability keeping him calm and controllable.

Unless you go by the later retcon where they are all just placebo's and the whole state change is purely a mental thing for Nuke...

 

Although given the seeming strength change in Trish after taking a red, it seems like this version of the pills were more likely the real deal.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Xenith22

[AzureOwl]

Red pills are an adrenaline/focus boost for combat purposes.   White pills bring everything back down to normal after the mission.  Blue pills were to reduce pain and to try to manage his mental stability keeping him calm and controllable.

Unless you go by the later retcon where they are all just placebo's and the whole state change is purely a mental thing for Nuke...

 

Although given the seeming strength change in Trish after taking a red, it seems like this version of the pills were more likely the real deal.

 

The way the doctor explained it on the show, the red pills give powers, the white ones stabilize, and the blue ones bring you down. But, he did imply that it used to be different, hence why he needed to explain this to Simpson. Maybe we are supposed to assume it used to be like you describe.

[Bec]

Was Kilgrave’s name always Kevin even in the comics, or is this some kind of “We need to talk about Kevin” reference?

 

Of course he lied (and/or omitted important info) about his parents.

 

Red, white & blue pills? How patriotic! Is Simpson taking Captain America drugs?

 

Good to have it confirmed that Kilgrave in fact can’t control Jessica anymore ever. I love the smile on her face at the realisation. She’s free at last! Sort of.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Bec

[xqueenfrostine]

His name was Zebediah in the comics if I'm not mistaken. I assume they changed the name because they wanted something more modern.

[tanita]

Yeah, he was Zebediah Killgrave in the comics with Purpul Man being his alias/super villain name. Here, Kilgrave is his alias and Kevin Thompson is his given name.

Edited November 23, 2015 by tanita

[FurryFury]

Holy freakin' shit, that last confrontation was probably one of the best scenes I've seen in years. Absolutely amazing.

 

And Tennant just owns all of his scenes. Riveting, just riveting.

 

I'm in complete and total love with this show. The only thing I hate is that I don't have time to binge it at once. Gonna have to finish it tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.

 

But really, good job, Netflix, Marvel Studios, Melissa Rosenberg, Kristen Ritter and David Tennant.

[VCRTracking]

Whoa! Killgrave can't control Jessica anymore and it's a whole new ballgame.

 

When I saw John Dahl's name in the credits as director I knew it was going to be great. The Last Seduction from 1994 directed by Dahl and starring Linda Fiorentino is one of the great modern noirs.

 

Really glad Jeri wasn't tempted to use Killgrave to make her problems with her ex go away, although there's still time.

 

What is with Simpson's doctor and those red, white and blue pills? A new form of super soldier like Captain America?

 

That final scene.....holy cow. Yeah, Jess' plan was sooooooo not well thought out.  So it turns out Killgrave was like The Twilight Zone episode with Bill Mumy.   Huge, huge HUGE sigh of relief when Trish's gun turned out to be out of bullets.

 

Why did they have to make all three lesbian characters on the show so unlikeable and unsympathetic. Representation fail.

 

I like Pam and I can sympathize with Jeri's hurt feelings. As already posted having the minority character be the paragon of virtue is also detrimental as the opposite. Gay characters can be just as flawed as heterosexual characters.

Edited November 23, 2015 by VCRTracking

[Ororo Monroe]

I have so many questions:

 

1. Why didn't Jessica have someone bring the videos of the experiments and take the parents to the precinct, their statement with the video could have provided compelling evidence, yes?

2. Since Kilgrave can't control Jessica anymore, her plan to have him try to stop her from kicking his ass on video would have flopped anyway. So what was her backup plan?

3. Why would Lester Freamon not bring back up (I'm sorry, I keep forgetting his JJ character's name and I'm a Wire fan)? He's supposed to good police.

3a. Why has Clarke Peters been so criminally underused in this show?

4. Was Jeri going to release Kilgrave or did she just want to convince him to work for her so she can get this divorce settled? And why wasn't she concerned about getting hurt herself? Whose side is she actually on?

5. How does Jessica's hair stay so shiny after the hell she keeps going through?

6. Is Simpson a superhero too--I mean, "gifted"? What's up with the pills? Is this another Captain America kind of situation? I guess I just need to be patient and see how this unfolds. Also: I don't like the actor who plays him. He's so...milquetoast. 

 

OK, that about covers all of my questions. Usually I can suspend disbelief but some of the decisions these characters made were just stupefying. Other observations: Trish had an accent slip-up in the hospital scene. Kind of like an Irish lilt. I'm digging the subtle red, white, and blue motif that keeps popping up. Trish is almost always wearing some combination. Jessica is usually in black and grey, and Jeri is pretty much exclusively in tan and black. Just really digging the palette.

 

One more thing: Malcolm is so cute and one of the most genuinely kind characters in this show; he provides a bit of light in what is obviously the darkest timeline. 

I really hope he doesn't get killed off. One thing that really pissed me off about Daredevil is that it the two out of three lead characters of color were killed off, just leaving Rosario Dawson. It's like, what is the point of having brown folks on a show just to make them the sacrificial lambs so the white heroes have more motivation to stop the Big Bad. It's a disturbing trope and I'm kind of sick of it. Yes, I know Luke Cage will have his own show next and I'm very intrigued to see where it goes, but it still bugs.

[VCRTracking]

 

Trish had an accent slip-up in the hospital scene. Kind of like an Irish lilt.

 

The actress Rachel Taylor's native accent is Australian. She used it in the first Transformers movie.

Edited November 24, 2015 by VCRTracking

[Bama]

I have not watched past this episode, so the following is just my speculation.

 

Really glad Jeri wasn't tempted to use Killgrave to make her problems with her ex go away, although there's still time.

 

But what if she already has?  What if she's the one that disabled the wire that allowed everything to go haywire and allow Killgrave to escape?

[thuganomics85]

Yeah, that what I was wondering too.  If Hogarth somehow sabotaged the button and everything.  It would be more surprising if it ends up being something as simple as faulty wiring, so I'm currently giving her the side-eye.  She really seemed desperate enough after Wendy's last threat and Pam's ultimatum, that she would go this far. 

 

The thing about Jessica and her plans are that, on some level, they aren't that bad and even make sense in some ways.  The problem is that she does not think them out entirely and the execution of them just sucks.  I mean, trapping Kilgrave and having him uses his powers on camera is probably the best idea with that they have, but when your plan involves locking people in a cell with him, well.... maybe find another option.  Or at the very, very least, have a back-up button.  I'm just glad the body-count was only one.  Had there been another bullet though, then Trish would have been a goner.  I can only imagine how that would have effected Jessica.

 

It looked like Kilgrave didn't have time to wipe Clemmons mind, so I'm guessing he's now in the know.  Could be a good thing.  Or maybe not.  Have no idea.

 

Speaking of having no idea, what is the deal with Simpson and those mysterious pills, and this somewhat shady doctor?  What is he into?

 

Glad to check in on Malcolm again.

 

But, hey, the good news is that it really does look like Jessica can't be controlled by Kilgrave anymore.  Sure, he can still control everyone else around her and use that to his advantage, but that's something, right?!

[Morgan of Hed]

Regarding Simpson (DD comic spoilers):

Nuke is a character from the Frank Miller version of Daredevil. Miller's Daredevil was a strong influence on the Netflix version. He is some version of super-soldier like Captain America, but powered by pills rather than permanently enhanced. In the Miller books he is kind of deranged but under the control of other nefarious people.

[Actionmage]

I am mesmerized by this series.  Daredevil I gobbled down like Halloween candy, but this? This leaves me needing to take a break now and then, to fully appreciate everything.

 

Simpson: It makes more sense this episode. It's been ages since I looked at Miller's run on DD, but I remember the more powered version of Simpson.

 

The very dysfunctional Thompsons: Talk about bad plans and not thinking about long-term repercussions. That still doesn't let them off the cerebral-spinal fluid stuff, for me. This was a hard episode to watch and I know I probably missed some dialogue that will be important later because I could not listen past Li'l Kevin and his pain.

 

The other children: Jessica and Trish will be haunted by those kids.

 

Malcolm: I agree with Jessica; his superpower is helping people. He just helps differently from Jess. I hope he gets that it's as valuable as being able to fly or stop a car, if not moreso.

 

Trish: Killgr- Kevin had best thank whatever power he believes in that Trish was out of bullets.  I just wish Trish would leave Simpson alone or break up with him, if they consider themselves more than just FWB.  I know he comes from a protective and caring place, but he apparently doesn't hear how controlling he sounds while trying to make Trish safe. It's not your call what she chooses, dude.

 

Hogarth:  I want Jess to knock her teeth out. Jessica is trusting the shark to act ethically and I would be surprised if the short wasn't helped along by the Armani-covered ass.  Jeri wants, and she apparently has had it relatively easy, not unlike Kevin. Still, game recognize game and she thought she could handle him, like she's handled everyone else she has ever met. I like that Jeri isn't the easiest person to convince of anything, but it will be a chunk of whatever is coming no doubt.

 

Jessica: Damn. Krysten is just amazing to watch and the "you suck" speech was just right.  I think Jessica totally knew what Mum was going to do, if not suggested it herself. Jessica may not have known the exact method, but the way she told everyone that everything was not done makes me think she knew.

 

 

My big question is: how is a tape with a man in a torture room- with "Help Me" written in a blood-looking substance- going to help in the long or short- run? Get a CSI team to ensure it's ketchup, fine, but it's everything else before Mum and Dad entering the cell that might damage their credibility.  I am not a fan of Jeri's, but she wasn't entirely wrong.  Winning the battle ( proving Kevin's powers) doesn't mean Jessica will win the war ( to save Hope and the others, getting a safer way to keep Killgrave away from influencing people).

 

Hope everyone has a safe and enjoyable holiday!

[Rai]

Simpson asked for a 'Red'. Comics readers know I'm referring to..

It's weird that I sat straight up and basically cheered at the line "Gimme a Red," but damn if I didn't.  Aw yeah!

[Danny Franks]

This was the first episode that dragged, for me. And I mean really dragged. It took them an hour to get to the inevitable, 'plan doesn't work, Kilgrave gets away' denouement, with Jessica coming up with one unsuccessful idea after another, parading people in and out of that place like it was a zoo.

 

I think it all could, and should, have been done more elegantly and more quickly than it was. And relying on a convenient failure of the power for it all to go wrong is weak plotting. I don't buy Hogarth being able to sabotage the wiring without anyone realising. She's probably never even changed a plug socket in her life.

 

I did like the temptation of Hogarth, and it's easy to see why she would want to give in to it. She's in a terrible position, with the blackmail, and is going to lose everything, whatever she does. It would be easier for her to just hire a hitman to kill Mandy (say, when she's leaving the free clinic in the sketchy part of town she's working in), though. Not sure why that hasn't occurred to her. Pam is okay, I think. She's a lawyer at the sort of big firm that Matt and Foggy despised, so we can assume she's fairly morally compromised. It doesn't make her a bad person. She just fell in love with her boss and wants a life with her. As has been said, that happens all the time, and people won't always be empathetic to others when the heart is involved.

 

Jessica is definitely losing perspective, and the scene with the support group, where she totally dismisses what Kilgrave did to that guy just because it wasn't as 'bad' as what happened to her, and then the scene where she tells Hope they need to make Kilgrave pay for what he did to them, showed that. She's becoming unravelled, while she seems to think she's on point, and it's endangering everyone. Kilgrave's mother is dead, and if Will had given Trish a semi-auto instead of a revolver, she'd be dead too.

 

But I like that Trish is in this with her best friend, all the way. She pulled a gun on a cop because Jessica needed her to! Trish is the best best friend ever. Sadly, Will is still coming off as a bit of a dick. Did he take two red pills, in defiance of what the doctor told him, or were they the two whites he was meant to take? I couldn't tell. If he does become a villain, I wouldn't shed any tears.

Also, Nuke? A pill-popping, gung-ho patriot, mass murderer? More of that famous subtlety, huh, Frank Miller?

 

I love Malcolm, and I love that Jessica has recognised that he's doing a great job with that support group. He is truly helping people, just as he always wanted to (social worker), and he seems to have a purpose that will keep him away from any relapse. It's one of the brighter points of the show, that this hopeless, comedy junkie has become this strong, solid moral presence.

 

It's this saving people, and the importance of people, on a small scale that makes Daredevil and Jessica Jones resonate more than the big, superhero movies. Karen Page, Mrs. Cardenas, Malcolm, Hope. These are the people who run about in panic as the Hulk trashes a city block, or Iron Man destroys giant robots that he accidentally helped create (again), they're of no consequence to the Avengers, but they're of crucial importance in these shows.

 

Jessica being immune to his powers is a game-changing development. As some of us guessed, this may be what Kilgrave has been afraid of and why he has been so tentative about coming for Jessica. The shock of killing someone broke his control, and now he can't get it back. I'm not sure how immune she is, though. Wouldn't want to test it too far.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Danny Franks

[Rai]

Also, Nuke? A pill-popping, gung-ho patriot, mass murderer? More of that famous subtlety, huh, Frank Miller?

Actually, in a show about PTSD, that's kind of a brilliant addition to the cast. 

Nuke was a tragic character, since his PTSD wasn't treated, instead, it was just manipulated with drugs and brainwashing. He's stuck in the past perpetually, reliving his battles and trying to change them. It's a horrifying perversion of his patriotism. I grant Frank Miller wasn't subtle, but it doesn't mean he didn't have some depth to the characterization as well.

  Granted, all of that was in the comics, but Simpson presumably did have something in his past before he became a policeman.  I can only assume there's stuff there that's made him so gung-ho to make amends to Trish, and has him so riled up about being brainwashed by Kilgrave.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Rai

[VCRTracking]

I like this Tumblr post about it:

 

I don’t know why people are surprised by the dark turn Simpson takes on Jessica Jones. The one thing Kilgrave took from Simpson that was very, very important to him was control. That’s why he wants Kilgrave dead so badly. Kilgrave robbed him of his control over his body and mind. Simpson’s need for control manifests in him making Patsy like/trust him (because Kilgrave made her fear him), talking over Jessica and Patsy’s conversations whenever they’re trying to make a plan, ignoring Jessica’s decisions completely, and resorting to taking things in his own hands when he’s not satisfied with what Jessica is doing. Even his need to “protect” Patsy is all about control, and he has no issue using her to get what he wants (such as Jessica’s location).

Simpson, like Kilgrave, is all about control. And like Kilgrave, he manipulates people to get what he wants, just without the powers.

 

This show nailed toxic masculinity to the wall.

 

[xqueenfrostine]

I did like the temptation of Hogarth, and it's easy to see why she would want to give in to it. She's in a terrible position, with the blackmail, and is going to lose everything, whatever she does. It would be easier for her to just hire a hitman to kill Mandy (say, when she's leaving the free clinic in the sketchy part of town she's working in), though. Not sure why that hasn't occurred to her. Pam is okay, I think. She's a lawyer at the sort of big firm that Matt and Foggy despised, so we can assume she's fairly morally compromised. It doesn't make her a bad person. She just fell in love with her boss and wants a life with her. As has been said, that happens all the time, and people won't always be empathetic to others when the heart is involved.

 

I don't know that it's that the fact hasn't occurred to Jeri.  I think it's more likely that she doesn't actually want Wendy dead.  Scared into signing the divorce papers sure, but not dead.  Also, Pam isn't a lawyer, she's Jeri's secretary.

[AlliMo]

I'm clearly in the minority, because I consider Pam the most useless character on the entire show. I also didn't find her goading Hogarth to do whatever she had to do, ethical or otherwise, to be rid of Wendy to be in line with the whole, "Poor innocent thing who just fell in love" story. Nobody on this show is innocent, which is what I like about it.

 

Kilgrave may be the most fascinating villain I've ever seen, and Tennant is a big part of that. He manages to give him layers upon layers, he's mesmerizing.

[zxy556575]

I'm clearly in the minority, because I consider Pam the most useless character on the entire show. I also didn't find her goading Hogarth to do whatever she had to do, ethical or otherwise, to be rid of Wendy to be in line with the whole, "Poor innocent thing who just fell in love" story. Nobody on this show is innocent, which is what I like about it.

 

Pam was using her sexual wiles to get what she wanted from Jeri, which while classic mistress behavior, isn't exactly admirable. I wouldn't go so far as to call her a gold-digger, but she was certainly dating up. Her character was useful as a plot device, and I enjoyed Jeri's divorce storyline as a whole, but I'm pretty neutral on Pam as a person. Didn't like her, didn't dislike her.

 

I am very interested to see how Jeri climbs out of the financial, personal, legal, and professional hole she's dug for herself, though, and I really hope she'll be back next season.

[Danny Franks]

I'm clearly in the minority, because I consider Pam the most useless character on the entire show. I also didn't find her goading Hogarth to do whatever she had to do, ethical or otherwise, to be rid of Wendy to be in line with the whole, "Poor innocent thing who just fell in love" story. Nobody on this show is innocent, which is what I like about it.

I don't think anyone described Pam as that. In the scope of the characters on this show, Pam is probably one of the less morally compromised people, and nothing she's said or done has been outside what you might find in everyday life. Dating someone who is in a relationship is hardly uncommon, and it doesn't make someone a bad person.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Danny Franks

[Bec]

The idea that as long as it’s a common crime and there are worse crimes, it’s not so bad - isn’t that just moral relativism? When it comes down to it, Pam just doesn’t give a shit if someone else is hurt as long as she gets what she wants. Jeri feels the same. And interestingly enough, Kilgrave also feels the same. It can be a slippery slope to psychopath-town.

 

Anyway…

 

That part when Jeri said they needed someone like a cop to testify against Kilgrave, I was scratching my head at Jessica involving Detective Clemmons. You already know a cop who can testify against Kilgrave, Jessica! Okay, he tried to kill Kilgrave the last time you saw him, but, well, you brought Kilgrave to the sealed room Simpson set up for you, so you’re obviously not hiding from Simpson. And you didn’t know that he got blown up. You have talked him out of killing Kilgrave before (when he wanted to use an actual gun on Kilgrave instead of a dart gun on your first op together), so what the hell?

Edited November 27, 2015 by Bec

[Morgan of Hed]

Dating someone who is in a relationship is hardly uncommon, and it doesn't make someone a bad person.

I think knowingly dating a married person does make you a bad person.  Not serial-killer bad, but still bad on a certain level.

[tanita]

IDK, it's not as if Pam is married to Wendy. There is only one bad guy/womanl in that triangle and it's Jeri. She is the married one. Pam as far as we know was single, and while it's generally morally wrong, the one people would have a problem is Jeri. She is ruining her own marriage and the fact is, she isn't some dumb woman who went head over heals in love and this young bimbo is pulling her nose. Jeri is a shark, I'd say in life just like in work and she knows what she is doing. I would bet Pam isn't the first chick she cheated Wendy with, but they are getting on with age and Jeri needed a newer model.

[xqueenfrostine]

When it comes down to it, Pam just doesn’t give a shit if someone else is hurt as long as she gets what she wants.

I don't think that's entirely true. After all, Pam

got pretty upset when she realized that Jeri had brought Kilgrave over to Wendy's place of that she had hoped to use him to force Wendy into signing the divorce papers.

She also seemed appalled that Jeri would bring her to the restaurant that she proposed to Wendy in.

Pam's no saint and have done some pretty hurtful things by pursuing a relationship with her married boss, but that doesn't make her an irredeemably terrible human being. I agree with Danny that if we're grading the morality of the characters on Jessica Jones on a curve, she's better than average.

[Kel Varnsen]

This episode really showed how the normal justice system really doesn't have a chance of being able to handle someone like Killgrave. I mean how would he ever stand trial, or serve time in jail? I guess if we were still in Phase 1 of the MCU this would be kind of the time where Agent Coulson of SHIELD shows up, like in Iron man and Thor, but since that version of SHIELD is pretty much gone not sure how he could be dealt with. Thanks a lot HYDRA.

 

Then again I am just surprised Jessica hasn't just punched Killgrave in the phase by now and broken his jaw, although that would really mess up the rest of the series though. 

 

That ending was super intense though. I am curious to see how the next episode works if Killgrave's powers last around 8 hours and he told Trish to blow her head off. Is someone going to have to stand watch over her for that amount of time to make sure she doesn't try and go buy a gun?

[Sakura12]

Or find a way to knock them out for that amount of time. Once you do what he told you do to, it breaks the control.

The Trish put a bullet in your head was solved by Jessica putting a bullet in Trish's mouth, therefore it's in her head. That broke his control over her.

Everything Killgrave says is taken literally, they have to pay attention to the words he uses.

Edited November 28, 2015 by The Crazed Spruce
hid spoiler from a later episode

[zxy556575]

The idea that as long as it’s a common crime and there are worse crimes, it’s not so bad - isn’t that just moral relativism?

 

If we're going down that road, the entire series* is a quagmire of moral relativism.

 

 

* And perhaps all superhero shows?

[Bec]

How so? The show doesn't keep moving the goal posts for what's "bad", as far as I can tell. Nobody is totally clean, but when they do something bad they get called on it.

 

Anyway, nobody is saying she's Kilgrave's equal in badness. She's not as bad as Jeri, who's not as bad as Kilgrave. Somebody out there is worse than Kilgrave.

 

I certainly think Pam's redeemable, but I'm just not gonna handwave her willingness to keep on being with a married woman with "oh, it's not so bad". It is bad and she seems to realize it sometimes, that's why she's redeemable.

 

Way I see it, "bad person" is not necessarily a permanent label. I'm a big fan of redemption stories. But they all start with recognizing the bad (then doing something to stop it) instead of minimizing it, ignoring it or excusing it.

[questionfear]

I played rugby for years, and didn't connect the dots on the title until Jessica started googling "sin bin", and I was ready to call bullshit if she didn't have to wade through a ton of rugby links...was pleasantly surprised to find it out it was relevant!

[AimingforYoko]

I played rugby for years, and didn't connect the dots on the title until Jessica started googling "sin bin", and I was ready to call bullshit if she didn't have to wade through a ton of rugby links...was pleasantly surprised to find it out it was relevant!

It's been used in hockey as well.

[xqueenfrostine]

Anyway, nobody is saying she's Kilgrave's equal in badness. She's not as bad as Jeri, who's not as bad as Kilgrave. Somebody out there is worse than Kilgrave.

 

I certainly think Pam's redeemable, but I'm just not gonna handwave her willingness to keep on being with a married woman with "oh, it's not so bad". It is bad and she seems to realize it sometimes, that's why she's redeemable.

 

Way I see it, "bad person" is not necessarily a permanent label. I'm a big fan of redemption stories. But they all start with recognizing the bad (then doing something to stop it) instead of minimizing it, ignoring it or excusing it.

 

 

I think there's a difference between handwaving away someone's wrong doing and saying that that someone doesn't care at all if someone else gets hurt so long as they get what they want.  It's possible, even extremely common, to do things that could hurt others and still care about the hurt that you're causing,  That's what guilt is all about.  So I don't think the difference between Pam and both Jeri and Killgrave is just that her defenses are comparatively minor.   It's that the later two don't give the collateral damage of their decisions any thought at all.  Pam doesn't seem that way.

Edited November 28, 2015 by xqueenfrostine

[Bec]

Okay, maybe it’s an overstatement to say she doesn’t give any shit. I should say she gave about two shits but didn't care enough to stop? I’m honestly not sure it’s a whole lot better to be aware something is bad and keep on doing it regardless. The only good thing about “feeling guilty about it” is that it makes it more likely the person might stop doing it. Though stopping isn’t a given, so as long as the bad behavior continues, it's too soon to take the “bad” label off, that’s all.

 

Edited to add: this show is a bad influence on my language. I've noticed I'm saying "shit" a whole lot more lately. Hee!

Edited November 28, 2015 by Bec