Small Talk: Out of Genoa

[Cupid Stunt]

Pegi Young, Musician & Former Wife of Neil Young, Dies at 66

Pegi Young was not a music artist by design.

She was a lifelong fan and started writing songs when she was in high school. Singing backup for then-husband Neil Young seemed somewhat casual, and her primary focus was the Bridge School, which she and Young started in 1986 to help children with severe physical and speech impairments. But starting with 2007's self-titled effort, Young wound up making four albums and fronting a band dubbed the Survivors.

"It was, 'OK, let's just plunge in,'" Young said about her music career as she began it. "I was as surprised as anybody else to hear how things came together."

Young passed away on New Year's Day at the age of 66, after a yearlong battle with cancer, "surrounded by friends and family in California," according to an official statement. She's survived by her children with Neil Young -- son Ben, and daughter Amber -- as well as ex-stepson Zeke and two grandchildren.

Graham Nash, a longtime friend and musical partner of Neil Young, told Rolling Stone, "Pegi was a very strong woman in many ways, certainly a lady to be admired."

Young, who was born Margaret Morton in San Mateo, Calif., will best be remembered for her work with the Bridge School. Inspired by experiences trying to find schools for their son Ben, who was born with cerebral palsy, she and Neil started their own school with another parent, Jim Foderer and Dr. Marilyn Buzolich, creating groundbreaking methods for educating and enriching the lives of its students. Young served as president of the Bridge School's board of directors since its inception, and was its Executive Director for seven years. From 1986-2016 she worked with her ex-husband on the annual Bridge School Benefit concerts, a yearly musical highlight that featured a diverse who's who roster of artists over the years -- Bruce Springsteen, Tom Petty, Elton John, Pearl Jam, Metallica, R.E.M., Jams Taylor, Willie Nelson, reunions of Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young and Buffalo Springfield and scores of others -- that helped fund the school. "It's grown way behind my expectations," Pegi Young said in 2017. ”I really didn't know what to expect, but the global impact that we're having... We've had people that come from different countries around the world and they come and mentor at the Bridge School for a year and get different opportunities for ongoing professional development and then go back to their countries and begin to affect change there. It's having a global impact. That was my dream, but to actually be realizing it is huge," she said.

Another dream, achieved, for Young was the family life she had during her 36-year marriage. "We wanted to be together as a family," she said, "so when we could we lived like gypsies and just lived on the bus and traveled together. I tried to keep a real balance of normality in our family, and I guarded our privacy fiercely."

Young's music career, meanwhile, began in 1994 -- at the nationally televised Academy Awards ceremony, singing backup for Neil Young on his Oscar-nominated "Philadelphia." She eventually became a regular backup singer on his tours and sang and played occasional acoustic guitar on some of his albums, including Greendale, Prairie Wind, Chrome Dreams II and more. She also took photographs for Neil's Silver & Gold and for Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young's 1999 comeback album Looking Forward.

She didn't entertain the idea of making her own music for many years "because I was too shy or insecure to break out my own stuff. I guess little by little my confidence was growing, and it seemed like all of a sudden we were putting together a band and seriously going into the studio to make a record." Young became a touring as well as recording artist and noted in 2017 that "I came into my own, you might say, in terms of putting out my first record quite late in life. And yet there's some authors and photographers and even probably recording artists that didn't really hit their stride until their mid-50s. Some people write a lot more and put out a lot more product than I do, but I'm pleased with what I've been able to do in the last decade, and I don't see this as my last record by any stretch."

As a recording artist, Young was a late bloomer -- she didn’t record her own music in a studio until she was in her fifties. Better late than never: for her self-titled debut, she simply dug out her old compositions from her “little brown suitcase” she habitually carried around and sang them. She’d been hiding some serious gems: “Key to Love” is a simmering waltz for the wee small hours. “Drive without your glasses / To a moonlit path at night,” she sings. The late slide guitarist Ben Keith plays like he’s in soft focus.

"What a gift it is to be able to do this," she said. "It's huge. In some ways it's like a new beginning, even."

That was certainly the theme of 2017's RAW, Young's last album. It came out in the wake of the acrimonious end of her 36-year marriage. "I don't think I had a real grasp on how much people viewed us as a couple -- and a couple that had been through so much together and stuck it out and had been collaborators on so many different levels -- until after the separation," Young said. "Then when the divorce papers were filed and all that and the news broke it was like, 'Oh, whoa, yeah.'"

If Young had touched on marital uncertainty in her songs before, her post-divorce album Raw throws the entire cocktail in your face and leaves you with the tab. “Gave My Best to You” is an excoriation of Young’s mid-life crisis: “Everyone’s disposable / Everyone’s replaceable / Everyone’s dispensable!” she seethes over a honky-tonk backing.

But Young ultimately took a high road even during that dark time. She seldom slammed Neil in public, and even kept her songs, save for something like "Why'd You Have to Ruin My Life," from being too specific about the situation.

"I was having to adjust and learn to live in this new world order in my early 60s," Young said. "There's that process of discovery of 'Well, who am I now that I'm not doing what I did for so many years?' That's been my process, but it's also, I think a universal experience, whether it's a late in life divorce or a divorce at any stage of the game or a death or any significant loss. You've got to learn now to function in the new world order -- and that's what I'm doing."

Memorial plans for Young are pending.

[Capricasix]

Did Neil dump her for Daryl Hannah?

[Cupid Stunt]

1 hour ago, Capricasix said:

Did Neil dump her for Daryl Hannah?

Yes. He openly cheated on Pegi with Hannah for about a year. Neil Young released Storytone in 2014; a ten track love letter to Hannah. Then the shit hit the fan.

I won't go into what Hannah's intentions were pursuing an older, wealthier married man, but It was a ugly celebrity divorce.

[PatsyandEddie]

Jerk. 🤬 

[Capricasix]

2 hours ago, PatsyandEddie said:

Jerk. 🤬 

Yeah, that 😡

[OhioSongbird]

Man...I'm bummed.  Did not know that...and I love Neil's music solo and with CSNY.

How were the holidays for y'all?  

[peacheslatour]

28 minutes ago, OhioSongbird said:

Man...I'm bummed.  Did not know that...and I love Neil's music solo and with CSNY.

How were the holidays for y'all?  

Much better than last year. We were more prepared and it didn't snow while my dad was over for dinner and the oven didn't break. Small favors.

[Cupid Stunt]

6 hours ago, OhioSongbird said:

How were the holidays for y'all?  

Excellent! Mr.Stunt's grandmother joined us at my parent's; always a welcome guest. Bea was the only sibling that didn't make it, and we celebrated her December 24th birthday in absentia. Bea prefers pie (Pie is love.) over cake -- Smart girl. There was some snow, but not enough to slow us down.

 

 

 

263 celebrities, politicians, CEOs, and others who have been accused of sexual misconduct since April 2017

 

New Year Resolution: Day 9 -- Shiver under pile of blankets in my new bed, wearing an ice pack for the throbbing headache, and everything tastes like stale cereal. <bleah>

[boes]

1 hour ago, Cupid Stunt said:

 Bea was the only sibling that didn't make it, and we celebrated her December 24th birthday in absentia. Bea prefers pie (Pie is love.) over cake -- Smart girl. There was some snow, but not enough to slow us down.

Bea is my kind of person!  I like cake, etc., but there were so many cookies, cakes, candies, etc., over the holidays that for my birthday, which was the 29th of December, I made my own celebratory item, an apple pie, and it might have been the best one I've made so far....

http://

[Sake614]

Well happy belated birthday @boes! That pie looks scrumptious. Mine won’t win any beauty contests but I think I’ve finally mastered the art of at least making it taste good lol!

[Cupid Stunt]

1 hour ago, boes said:

Bea is my kind of person!  I like cake, etc., but there were so many cookies, cakes, candies, etc., over the holidays that for my birthday, which was the 29th of December, I made my own celebratory item, an apple pie, and it might have been the best one I've made so far....

Twenty-nine and holding?

You'll always be twenty-four to me, boes.

[jewel21]

Happy belated birthday, Boes!! Also, I wish you loved nearby so I could come over for pie. That looks delicious! Damn, now I want pie, lol. 

[Petunia13]

Happy birthday @boes you deserve the best of everything ❤️ I hope this year is as amusing and wonderful as you. 

[Snaporaz]

Here's to another year of making us laugh every day, @boes!

 

[bannana]

On ‎2019‎-‎01‎-‎08 at 4:13 PM, Capricasix said:

Did Neil dump her for Daryl Hannah?

 

On ‎2019‎-‎01‎-‎08 at 5:43 PM, Cupid Stunt said:

Yes. He openly cheated on Pegi with Hannah for about a year. Neil Young released Storytone in 2014; a ten track love letter to Hannah. Then the shit hit the fan.

I won't go into what Hannah's intentions were pursuing an older, wealthier married man, but It was a ugly celebrity divorce.

 

On ‎2019‎-‎01‎-‎08 at 5:53 PM, PatsyandEddie said:

Jerk. 🤬 

 

12 hours ago, OhioSongbird said:

Man...I'm bummed.  Did not know that...and I love Neil's music solo and with CSNY.

How were the holidays for y'all?  

So when I read @cupidstunt's beautiful tribute to Pegi, I did not want to post my harsh feelings about how Neil Young (whom I loved) treated his fantastic wife.  It pains me to this day.  So glad you all put it out there.  It pisses me off the way he treated her.  And Darryl Hannah?  Come on!

[Cupid Stunt]

7 hours ago, bannana said:

So when I read @cupidstunt's beautiful tribute to Pegi, I did not want to post my harsh feelings about how Neil Young (whom I loved) treated his fantastic wife.  It pains me to this day.  So glad you all put it out there.  It pisses me off the way he treated her.  And Darryl Hannah?  Come on!

People make a  lot of ill-advised choices in their marriage to the point of breaking, and then repent at leisure with the results.

Pegi Young will be profoundly missed by the Bridge School community, and her many friends and fans.

 

The scientist who tried to be as selfless as possible, until it killed him

 

The Best From the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas.

 

Scientists seek ways to finally take a real measure of pain

 

 

Argyle loves Aunt Grace. The feeling is not mutual.

[OhioSongbird]

Yes...Happy Belated Birthday boesy!

Argyle...love the name.  He/she looks very content.

We had an interesting holiday.  Two days before Christmas hubby is driving home from work and 3 deer appear magically.....as they seem to do.  Deer 1--'09 Elantra 0.  Car be totaled.  To add insult to injury we had just put $600 in it for new brakes.  Low mileage, clean, hubby takes super care of our vehicles (he works in auto parts so he knows the importance of proper maintenance).  I loved that car!  Insurance is being very fair and we're getting a nice check.  I will buy another Hyundai.  Have had 2 now and they're comfy and reliable.

Then comes New Year's.  Been cooking for a couple of days (anything I can do in advance I do) then woke up Sunday morning feeling like shit and Monday wasn't any better.  Did get dinner together (thank God for a slow cooker...pork and kraut) and boychild helped when he got here with the other stuff.  Still forgot to get out things (champagne in the fridge) but we all had a good time.  Small gathering, just us 3 and another couple but a good time was had by all.  Had some leftovers, now in the freezer for later.

Oh, I forgot!  boes, that pie was (I'm sure it is by now..;-)) a thing of beauty!

Edited January 10, 2019 by OhioSongbird

[peacheslatour]

Happy belated birthday boesy! Only good things coming your way as you finally approach your late twenties!

[pearlite]

Sorry, boes, I'm a bit rusty with InDesign...but I tried...

Belated Happy Birthday!

[crosby777]

I haven't been around much.. my mom has been ill and she lived with me.. but she died on Monday in my arms and I am so reeling.. if anyone has some words to help me .. please send them my way.. I am struggling..

[Capricasix]

I am so sorry for your loss, crosby 😢 There are several folks here who know the depth of your grief and pain better than I do - but please know that we’re all here to offer you a virtual hug and a shoulder to cry on ❤️

[OhioSongbird]

Oh, honey.....I am so sorry to hear that.  It hurts but it will get better.  After awhile you'll start remembering all the good things and you will smile.  Lost my Mom 4 yrs ago but I couldn't get there in time (she was in FL at my brother's) so cherish that moment.  She was there at the beginning of your life and you were with her at the end of hers.

(((hugs)))

[Cupid Stunt]

Gracious Father, You have destroyed death by Your Cross and have restored man to life by Your Resurrection; give rest, Lord, to the soul of Your servant, Mother Crosby, who has died. In Your Kingdom, where there is no pain, sorrow or suffering. In Your goodness and love for all men, forgive her weakness and sins she has committed in thought word or deed. There is no one who lives and sins not, You only are without sin.
For You are the Resurrection, the Life, and Repose of Your servant Mother Crosby, departed this life, We send up glory with Your Eternal Father and Your All-holy, Good and Life-creating Spirit; both now and forever and to the ages of ages. Amen

 

O God, our help in time of need, Who are just and merciful, and Who inclines to the supplications of His people, look down upon Crosby and have mercy on him. Guide him according to Your manifold mercies, for we are the works of Your hands. I pray to you to grant Crosby Your divine grace, and endowed with patience and strength to endure the death of his mother. Only You know our misery and sufferings. You are our hope and refuge, May Crosby trust in Your infinite love and compassion to deliver him from his bereavement into peace. Lord of the Powers hear our prayers, Loving Father, Son and Holy Spirit, both now and forever and to the ages of ages. Amen

[OhioSongbird]

Amen

[bannana]

2 hours ago, crosby777 said:

I haven't been around much.. my mom has been ill and she lived with me.. but she died on Monday in my arms and I am so reeling.. if anyone has some words to help me .. please send them my way.. I am struggling..

It is so difficult to go through losing your mother, I never thought I would be able to deal with it, but my mom had Alzheimer's and then cancer so it was a blessing and a relief to see her pain and confusion end.  I still dream about her all the time, she is like a supporting cast member in my dreams.  She died 9 years ago.  My heart goes out to you @crosby777.

[boes]

3 hours ago, crosby777 said:

I haven't been around much.. my mom has been ill and she lived with me.. but she died on Monday in my arms and I am so reeling.. if anyone has some words to help me .. please send them my way.. I am struggling..

I know it's hard to see or believe right now, but there is light at the end of that tunnel.

And when you can, I hope it will be some comfort to know that you provided the most loving surround for your mom, body and soul, that anyone could ever have done.  

Bless you.

[peacheslatour]

Crosby, I lost my mom to cancer in 2017. I was with her at the end. She chose to end her life and she did. Our mothers are wise and we relied on their wisdom all our lives and we will continue to remember what they taught us and be thankful for them. She loved you and was with you and is still with you forever. Think of the good times and know that she is watching over you and loving you still. ((((hugs))))

[PatsyandEddie]

crosby, my deepest condolences. I lost my Mom two years ago and held her as her soul departed. Just remember that she was there at your beginning,soothing your frantic newborn cries and you were there at her passing, giving her comfort. It is a difficult situation to be in so just give yourself the precious and personal gift of time to grieve. 

 

Beautiful words CS, as always. 

Edited January 11, 2019 by PatsyandEddie

[pearlite]

My condolences, crosby

[crosby777]

Thanks everyone.. I knew this group of awesome people would make me feel better and you all have..

[Gloriole33]

My deepest condolences to you, Crosby.  Treasure the relationship you had with your mother.  She will always be with you.

[Petunia13]

15 hours ago, crosby777 said:

I haven't been around much.. my mom has been ill and she lived with me.. but she died on Monday in my arms and I am so reeling.. if anyone has some words to help me .. please send them my way.. I am struggling..

Oh no. I’m so sorry. I’m glad you were together and you were a source of comfort and strength for her. That is very brave and beautiful of you. Sending love and prayers your way ❤️ that you find comfort and peace and that she is in a better place held in God’s care. 

[AngelKitty]

Dear @crosby777, my thoughts and prayers go out to you. Losing a close parent is hard and something most of us have gone through or will go through. The pain of loss will come and go but she will never leave your heart. ❤

[Cupid Stunt]

If you want to talk, we're here to listen, Crosby.

 

On ‎1‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 9:41 AM, OhioSongbird said:

Argyle...love the name.  He/she looks very content.

He's my brother's cat, and a bit of a stinker. Argyle will zero in on the one person in the room that hates cats and go make himself at home. My sister-in-law's Aunt Grace is a regular victim.

 

Japanese photographer makes hats for his cats from the hair they’ve shed

 

Some food inspections were postponed during the shutdown. It’s not an emergency — yet.

 

<Le Sigh>

[Petunia13]

I have strep throat and it’s a big snowstorm ❄️☃️ In Chicago so George is being an extra sweetie and snuggling the heck out of me. It definitely makes me feel better. 

[boes]

1 minute ago, Petunia13 said:

I have strep throat and it’s a big snowstorm ❄️☃️ In Chicago so George is being an extra sweetie and snuggling the heck out of me. It definitely makes me feel better. 

Snuggle deep!  There's no better comfort and cure than George!  Feel better.

[Petunia13]

Isn’t it amazing how our pets know when we’re feeling shitty either emotionally or physically and do whatever they can to help  🤗🐶🐰😻

a few days ago I was really stressed out and grumbling to myself and George patted my arm then licked my face, then locked eyes w me tilting his head like “it’s not that deep.” And today he’s a total cuddle bug. I’m not even going anywhere or doing anything today! 

[Snaporaz]

My sympathy for your loss, @crosby777.  When her mother passed away, I remember @peacheslatour saying that her mom was now "one with the universe".  I love that image and I think of it every time I'm remembering someone who has passed.

[peacheslatour]

42 minutes ago, Snaporaz said:

My sympathy for your loss, @crosby777.  When her mother passed away, I remember @peacheslatour saying that her mom was now "one with the universe".  I love that image and I think of it every time I'm remembering someone who has passed.

Thanks, Snap. I believe we're all part of The Great Energy and when we pass we go back into it and our energy goes on.

[OhioSongbird]

Amen

[Sake614]

10 hours ago, Cupid Stunt said:

Argyle will zero in on the one person in the room that hates cats and go make himself at home

That’s too funny! Poor aunt grace lol!

[jewel21]

Our bodies are made of energy and energy cannot be destroyed. Therefore, after we pass away, our soul/energy still exists. There's comfort in that. We are never truly gone. 

I'm sorry about your loss, Crosby *hugs*

[crosby777]

one day at a time is the best advice I have received.. some days are harder than others. I picked up her ashes friday.. so now I have both my divorced parents ashes.. is it wrong to have them side by side :) forever

 

thanks again everyone.. I am starting to feel a bit human again.

[Cupid Stunt]

1 hour ago, crosby777 said:

one day at a time is the best advice I have received.. some days are harder than others. I picked up her ashes friday.. so now I have both my divorced parents ashes..

is it wrong to have them side by side :) forever

They're getting along, and beyond their past discord.

; )

Quote

thanks again everyone.. I am starting to feel a bit human again.

(((Crosby)))

[valleycliffe]

oh poop....,my tv has gone kaput....no video only audio

looked it up online and it seems it would be more expensive to fix then to buy a new one...

it's an insignia tv from best buy...have to find receipt to see if we bought a warranty with it and also to see when we bought it.

LOL  looking at the faq's it seems the tv is only reliable for about 3 yrs before trouble starts.

ETA:  hubby got up, turned off the power bar, waited about 5 min turned power bar back on, turned tv back on and then got the picture back on....he said he had been watching vod last night and maybe that had something to do with it....anyway, happy i don't have to go out this morning and blow up the credit card buying a new one.

Edited January 13, 2019 by valleycliffe

[Cupid Stunt]

Latin trap artist Kevin Fret has been shot and killed in Puerto Rico. The 24-year-old was on his Yamaha motorcycle when he was shot at around 5.30am on January 10 in Santurce, San Juan. He died later the same day at the Medical Center of Río Piedras of injuries related to the shooting, police confirmed to El Nuevo Dia. 

According to Billboard, Fret’s manager, Eduardo Rodriguez said: “Kevin was an artistic soul, a big-hearted dreamer. “His passion was music, and still had a lot to do. This violence must stop.

“There are no words that describe the feeling we have and the pain that causes us to know that a person with so many dreams has to go.

“We must all unite in these difficult times, and ask for much peace for our beloved Puerto Rico.”

The singer, who is from Puerto Rico, stepped into the spotlight less than a year ago with the release of “Soy Asi.”

Fret spoke openly about his sexuality and was an outspoken advocate for the LGBTQ community.

According to El Nuevo Dia, the Criminal Investigation Corps of San Juan is investigating his death.

Violence and lawlessness of every stripe has becoming more prevalent on the island of Puerto Rico since Hurricane Maria in September 2017.

 

 

Bassist Joe Osborn died of pancreatic cancer on Dec. 14 at 81.

Osborn was no ordinary studio musician. From the early 1960s to the mid-1970s, Osborn was ubiquitous, playing on tunes as silly as The Monkees theme and as sublime as Simon & Garfunkel’s “Bridge Over Troubled Water.”

You can see Osborn backing Ricky Nelson on the early 1960s TV series “The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet.” He later became a key member of the elite Los Angeles performers that have come to be known as the Wrecking Crew. He appears prominently in documentaries about the period including “The Wrecking Crew!” (2015) and “Glen Campbell: I’ll Be Me” (2014).

Originally a guitarist, Osborn played the electric bass with a pick which enabled his parts to cut through on recordings — even when played on tiny transistor radios.

But producers featured him because his floating slides, hooks, and counterpoints added the distinctive energy and bounce that distinguished L.A.’s hits. He influenced that fruitful period as much as his bass-playing contemporaries including James Jamerson at Motown, Duck Dunn at Stax, and John Entwistle with The Who.

“Joe’s sound is as distinct and unique as Erroll Garner’s, Wes Montgomery’s, or even Ella Fitzgerald’s,” drummer Hal Blaine – who frequently teamed with Osborn – told Downbeat magazine in 1972.

Studio musicians’ influence is often benchmarked by the number of hits on which they appeared. The Shreveport, La. native’s run included 16 No. 1 songs, starting with Nelson’s “Travelin’ Man,” a song written for – and rejected by — Sam Cooke that Osborn heard and brought to Nelson’s attention.

After that, Osborn drove chart-toppers from performers including Johnny Rivers (“Poor Side of Town,” “Secret Agent Man”), Barry McGuire (“Eve of Destruction”), Gary Lewis & the Playboys (“This Diamond Ring”), the Mamas & The Papas (“Monday, Monday”), Glen Campbell (“Gentle On My Mind”), the Turtles (“You Baby”), the Association (“Windy”), the Fifth Dimension (“Aquarius/Let the Sunshine In”), the Cowsills (“The Rain, The Park and Other Things”), Richard Harris (“MacArthur Park”), Tommy Roe (“Dizzy”), Seals & Crofts (“Summer Breeze”), Neil Diamond (“Holly Holy”), Helen Reddy (“I Am Woman”), America (“Tin Man”), Barbra Streisand (“Stoney End”), England Dan and John Ford Coley (“Nights Are Forever”), the Partridge Family (“I Think I Love You”), the Grass Roots (“Temptation Eyes”), and Olivia Newton John (“Don’t Stop Belevin’”).

Osborn’s influence was especially evident in his work with The Carpenters. He discovered the brother-and-sister team in 1966 when they showed up at his short-lived Magic Lamp records label to accompany an auditioning trumpet player. He helped them to shape their distinctive harmonies and played on all of their hits.

By 1974, the demands of playing about 20 sessions a week became too much for Osborn. He moved to Nashville where he continued his studio work backing performers including Chet Atkins, Eddie Rabbitt, Merle Haggard, Reba McEntire, Kenny Rogers, Jimmy Buffett, and Neil Young.

Osborn moved back to Louisiana in 1988. He gave Nashville’s Musicians Hall of Fame the legendary Fender Jazz bass he used on countless recordings, and had autographed by musicians he accompanied including Karen Carpenter, Olivia Newton-John, Glen Campbell, Merle Haggard, Neil Young and Paul Simon.

 

 

*** Ear Worm Warning***

Baby Shark (doo doo do doo do doo), explained

[pearlite]

From the somewhat temperate paradise that is south-west downtown Toronto...DUCKS

Edited January 14, 2019 by pearlite
image wouldn't resize

[Cupid Stunt]

The Manilla of Ontario is looking very balmy. Are the Durians ripe yet?

[Capricasix]

You laugh, but there actually is a Manilla in Ontario! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariposa_Township,_Ontario?wprov=sfti1
 

Edited January 15, 2019 by Capricasix
took out the silly Apple Maps link

[crosby777]

On 1/13/2019 at 9:09 AM, Cupid Stunt said:

They're getting along, and beyond their past discord.

; )

(((Crosby)))

For real.. thank you.. I have been getting lots of real time support but it is especially nice from my soap buds.. bad thing tho I can't even argue about the soaps right now.... they all suck so bad