American Scandal With Barbara Walters - General Discussion

[Meredith Quill]

Discuss Here!

[AnnieGirl]

I have often wondered (and Google searched) what ever happened to Kimberly Mays. Sounds like Barbara had a hard time finding her too. It's clear she's struggled in her youth but seems to be doing okay now in her late 30's. The saddest part about this story is two deaths, Barbara Mays and Arlena Twigg.

I can't imagine how weird and tumultuous Kimberly's youth must have been.

[WescottF1]

I remember the tabloid articles that came out when she was stripping but then after that, there was nothing for years.  It was an interesting episode and afterwards I got to thinking how she might have turned out had the Twiggs never contacted her and she just lived her live with Bob Mays.  

 

Seemed she was on a good track at that point in her life.  Pretty, articulate, dreams of having two kids and possibly going to law school.  

 

Can't see Regina Twigg being a positive influence.  That woman is nuttier than a squirrel turd.

[RedheadZombie]

I find Regina Twigg to be contemptible, and I feel no sympathy for her.  That's saying a lot considering how much this woman has gone through.  She lost a baby from heart failure, lost another young child to heart disease, discovered her baby was switched, and has been shut out of that child's life.  But she absolutely disgusts me.  She has never seen Kimberly as Kimberly.  In her mind, this is her beloved Arlena who died tragically.  To then not only call Kimberly Arlena, but to allow your attorney to announce in open court that Kimberly is dead, and Kimberly is actually a child called Arlena.  Total nutbag. 

 

What I want to know from Regina, but am afraid to ask - did you alter poor little Arlena's tombstone to "Kimberly Michelle Mays"?  When talking about Arlena do you now call her Kimberly.  I'll bet anything she hasn't.  It's because she insanely believes that Arlena never died, and that she's now in Kimberly's body. 

 

What's sad is that Kimberly's life with Bob Mays wasn't a joy ride, either.  Losing her first mother, then losing her second mother (who was a fool for not adopting Kimberly, which would have given her rights after the divorce), then whatever happened with Bob's third wife, and then crazy Regina Twigg.  But she was still clearly better off with Bob.  The court appointed psychologist called Regina paranoid, erratic, and a liar, and the court appointed guardian advised that the Twigg's parental rights be terminated.  That's a huge decision considering crack mothers were getting custody of the children they abused and neglected.

 

And then this nut was "lonely" so she decided to walk the halls and harass other new mothers.  And because Mrs. Hays didn't want to talk with her, this meant she was knowingly harboring the Twigg baby.   Obviously something bad happened to cause the babies to be switched, but I'm not convinced anyone paid for the event to happen.  Corrected medical reports happened all the time back then.  Not documenting a baby's weight before discharge could have been a simple over sight.  And I find it hard to believe that a doctor, especially one who's being bribed, would pick a low level employee and instruct them to break the law.  It is odd that a baby diagnosed with heart problems, was discharged three days earlier than a supposed healthy baby.  But the altered documents were nowhere near the level that would be needed to erase any documentation of Baby Mays' heart problem, and to create a heart problem in Baby Twigg.  This leads me to believe that is was pure negligence that caused the switch, and perhaps the woman blaming it on the doctor is the one who screwed up.  One nurse testified that bands fell off occasionally, and one nurse claimed they had to be cut off.  I am an RN, and when someone claims something "never" happens, I immediately disbelieve them.  I think she was CYA.

 

I did some googling, and Kimberly's story is pretty consistent from fifteen years ago.  She said that she left the Twigg house because Regina was so fixated on her that her siblings resented her.  And how horribly ironic is it that Kimberly handled her turbulent childhood in the same manner as Regina - by having half a dozen children.  And then Kimberly lost one of her children, too.  I believe her when she says she wants nothing to do with Regina.  She showed no emotion when discussing her bio mom, but became very emotional when talking about Bob. 

[Ina123]

To me, this tragedy is like Solomon threatening to divide the baby in two.

As her bio mother Twig's normal response should have been, "what is best for Kimberly?" If she wasn't such a nut case, she would have done the right thing and just left her alone. Difficult? Yes. But that's what you do when you love a child. If she had just stayed out of her life and not tried to force the issue, perhaps later in life, Kimberly would have come to her for some kind of relationship, like many adopted children do. Who knows? The woman really screwed her up.

And Arlena. Even though she was proven to be not her bio child, how could she just toss her aside. Once she knew Kimberly was her real bio child, it was like non-bio "Arlena" didn't matter to her. Bio "Arlena" was an obsession.

[Ina123]

The Menendez Brothers.

I thought it was interesting that they allowed Lyle to wear his toupee during the interview since he is not allowed to wear it in his cell. There was even a short clip of him without it.

Women who want relationships with murderers...SMH. I'll never figure that out. I just feel for the daughter who is being dragged along.

[WescottF1]

Women who want relationships with murderers...SMH. I'll never figure that out. I just feel for the daughter who is being dragged along.

 

It's pretty fascinating and at the same times frightening how many groupies famous murders get.  Manson, Ramirez, Bundy... on and on.

[Ina123]

And buying their art. Gacy painted clowns and people are still buying and selling the paintings. Even the recent prison break in NY brought to light that the guards were manipulated with one escapee's art work. I just don't get what's with these people.

[Guest]

I watched the JonBenet episode and, yeah, it was nothing more than a rehash of everything past. Not like I thought she was going to solve the crime but there was nothing new about the case, or the players in it, of any worth. I mean, come on! Dig up John Mark Carr! I would love to see him now and here his tale of woe. Then, at some point, Walters pointed out how broke John was but then immediately started talking about how he and the new wife traveled constantly. And from the looks of it, she wasn't talking about them taking trips to Costco or Dollywood.

IMO, DNA or no DNA, someone who lived in that house killed that poor child -- the ransom note seals it for me. And I have never seen parents of a murdered child who were innocent of the crime act so phony. Blech. Horrible people.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Guest

[Ina123]

You really should have watched the "Switched at Birth" episode. Totally fascinating. I remember it well when it happened but seeing now what it did to her life was very interesting.

[Guest]

I actually did watch the Kimberley Mays episode yesterday. And I was a little shocked to see that none of it was new. I saw that interview with Kimberly Mays years ago on some ABC show - maybe 20/20? I mean, I think the only "new" thing on this show are the extreme, uncomfortable close ups of Barbara and her newly formed crazy eye. And why is she wearing a coat? Can't they give her a space heater while she's doing these interviews? Surely, they can't take up more than 10 minutes of her time.

 

I remember it well when it happened but seeing now what it did to her life was very interesting.

So, so true. I remember it as well and remember that Twiggs woman as a nasty, narcissistic shrew -- and time hasn't tempered my opinion. To actually call Kimberly "Arlena," was cruel and inhuman. Poor Kimberly never had a chance after all that mess started -- she was way too young to have to deal with that burden.

[WescottF1]

I actually did watch the Kimberley Mays episode yesterday. And I was a little shocked to see that none of it was new. I saw that interview with Kimberly Mays years ago on some ABC show - maybe 20/20? I mean, I think the only "new" thing on this show are the extreme, uncomfortable close ups of Barbara and her newly formed crazy eye. And why is she wearing a coat? Can't they give her a space heater while she's doing these interviews? Surely, they can't take up more than 10 minutes of her time.

 

 

 

 

Wait - weren't the interview bits with now-36-year-old-goth Kimberly new?

[Guest]

I swear I saw that interview before! (Maybe I'm hallucinating!)

[cooksdelight]

They use old interviews clipped in with the new ones. The current Barbara has that brown hair that is fluffed out in a weird way.

I am glued to watching her Mark David Chapman interview. I catch myself holding my breath, especially when he goes through each detail of the shooting.

[Ina123]

The Chapman interview was wild. The way he so calmly described every step.

[cooksdelight]

I know!! And that photo the guy took of Lennon before he was shot. I am wondering if his wife will get any backlash. She says she didn't think he'd do anything, but as soon as word came out that Lennon was shot, she knew who did it.

And Barbara.... did you really have to ask "Did you have sex?"

[Yokosmom]

I can't watch the Chapman interview as I never see the guy without wanting to punch him.

[RedheadZombie]

IMO, DNA or no DNA, someone who lived in that house killed that poor child -- the ransom note seals it for me. And I have never seen parents of a murdered child who were innocent of the crime act so phony. Blech. Horrible people.

 

It's absolutely impossible to leave the DNA out of who killed Jon Benet.  The child was raped.  The semen was not related to her father or brother.  Are you suggesting that they invited another male into the house to rape their daughter, and then they killed her?  That doesn't jibe with the story that Patsy was angry and killed Jon Benet when she wet the bed.

 

I've read tons on this case, including things written by FBI profilers, and the only people who believe the Ramseys were involved were the local keystone cops.  They were in over their heads, and they are the reason this remains an unsolved crime.  How anyone expects a parent won't instinctively remove tape obstructing their child's face, is beyond me.  Any woman cold enough to observe their just discovered murdered child and not embrace that child, is beyond me.

 

The media was immediately against the family due to the pageant spectacle.  I have Southern relatives, and although I personally despise child pageant culture, I realize how important it is to many Southerners.  I think these pageants are a pedophile's fantasy, and I think some freak became obsessed with their child.  They also had the tradition of allowing strangers in and out of their house during the Christmas season.  I believe someone fixated on their child, hid in their house during an open house, hid until the family came home and went to sleep, then killed Jon Benet.  Stun gun marks were found by outside investigators.  A parent wouldn't need to use a stun gun on their child.  They actually exhumed the body of John's daughter from a previous marriage, looking for signs of sexual abuse.  The whole thing was absolutely disgusting, especially considering she died in an accident, and was an adult when she died.  People were also suspicious of Jon Benet's unusual name, and Patsy's overt religious beliefs.

 

Of course the parents weren't perfect.  But I thought Elizabeth Smart's parents made similar terrible mistakes.  Allowing transients to work in their home, leaving a window open that allowed the pervert in, not allowing Elizabeth's sister to be questioned for months, not providing Elizabeth with counseling, and allowing Elizabeth to do multiple interviews after she was found (including slo-mo images of her riding horseback with her long blond hair flowing in the wind).  That didn't make them culpable for Elizabeth's kidnapping and abuse.

 

I will admit I was just as suspicious of the Ramseys at the time.  Most of what we heard came from the police and DA's office.  I think it's tragic that Patsy died before they were exonerated, and I wonder if the stress and trauma brought on the recurrence of cancer that killed her.  Poor Burke.

[Ina123]

Lt. Joe Kenda of "Homicide Hunter:Lt Joe Kenda" (ID Channel-Tuesdays) was asked to get involved. He refused. He said the original cops did such a poor job and tainted the investigation so badly that even if they have a good suspect now, they'll never get a conviction.

[Yokosmom]

not allowing Elizabeth's sister to be questioned for months

 

I could well be wrong on this, but I thought that the parents were told not to question her, as children that age have fungible memories, and that it would be better to let the little girl remember on her own without pushing her. Did the parent's not allow law enforcement to question her?  That would be strange if true.

[FanOfTheFans]

It's absolutely impossible to leave the DNA out of who killed Jon Benet. The child was raped. The semen was not related to her father or brother. Are you suggesting that they invited another male into the house to rape their daughter, and then they killed her? That doesn't jibe with the story that Patsy was angry and killed Jon Benet when she wet the bed.

I've read tons on this case, including things written by FBI profilers, and the only people who believe the Ramseys were involved were the local keystone cops. They were in over their heads, and they are the reason this remains an unsolved crime. How anyone expects a parent won't instinctively remove tape obstructing their child's face, is beyond me. Any woman cold enough to observe their just discovered murdered child and not embrace that child, is beyond me.

The media was immediately against the family due to the pageant spectacle. I have Southern relatives, and although I personally despise child pageant culture, I realize how important it is to many Southerners. I think these pageants are a pedophile's fantasy, and I think some freak became obsessed with their child. They also had the tradition of allowing strangers in and out of their house during the Christmas season. I believe someone fixated on their child, hid in their house during an open house, hid until the family came home and went to sleep, then killed Jon Benet. Stun gun marks were found by outside investigators. A parent wouldn't need to use a stun gun on their child. They actually exhumed the body of John's daughter from a previous marriage, looking for signs of sexual abuse. The whole thing was absolutely disgusting, especially considering she died in an accident, and was an adult when she died. People were also suspicious of Jon Benet's unusual name, and Patsy's overt religious beliefs.

Of course the parents weren't perfect. But I thought Elizabeth Smart's parents made similar terrible mistakes. Allowing transients to work in their home, leaving a window open that allowed the pervert in, not allowing Elizabeth's sister to be questioned for months, not providing Elizabeth with counseling, and allowing Elizabeth to do multiple interviews after she was found (including slo-mo images of her riding horseback with her long blond hair flowing in the wind). That didn't make them culpable for Elizabeth's kidnapping and abuse.

I will admit I was just as suspicious of the Ramseys at the time. Most of what we heard came from the police and DA's office. I think it's tragic that Patsy died before they were exonerated, and I wonder if the stress and trauma brought on the recurrence of cancer that killed her. Poor Burke.

The DNA was not from semen. I have followed this case and the DNA was explained in layperson's terms as being from someone who for example had sneezed or coughed on the underwear and it could have even happened during packaging of the underwear. They had that sample from the get go but only more recently were able to get a partial profile due to advancements. But the interesting thing about the sample is that it would never be able to convict someone in court because it is still degraded enough that they can't give statistics on it. For example saying odds are a million to one that a certain person fits the profile. And that in a nutshell is what bugs me about BW. She doesn't do her homework. Even though Ramseys were able to be excluded from sample, I am not convinced said sample belongs to the killer either. It could be some random person in a factory.

I have been back and forth about the Ramsey's. So many mistakes made in this case.

Edited December 10, 2015 by FanOfTheFans

[RedheadZombie]

I could well be wrong on this, but I thought that the parents were told not to question her, as children that age have fungible memories, and that it would be better to let the little girl remember on her own without pushing her. Did the parent's not allow law enforcement to question her?  That would be strange if true.

I'm pretty sure the parents kept her from being questioned, even though she saw the kidnapper. They figured she'd speak when she was ready. In the meantime, Elizabeth was being raped daily. Very poor decision, IMO.

[Irritable]

I was too young when John Lennon was killed to fully comprehend how much of a waste and tragedy it was, and had never seen Barbara's original interview with Chapman, so this episode was utterly fascinating for me.  I think I cried through more than half of it, now that I am older and have a better appreciation and understanding of who John Lennon really was, what he was about, his kind soul, his endless potential that was stolen in an instant of pure insanity. 

 

Listening to Chapman recount the story was absolutely chilling, especially hearing the reason why he chose Lennon as his target, and as I listened to his words and watched him come across as a rational person with possibly genuine regret, I thought he must have gotten some decent psychiatric care and medication that did wonders for him...until he said he had been cured by God, and that when the demons left his body he could feel them exit.  So he's still insane, he has just taken it in a different direction, and now is somehow allowed to speak to large groups of violent criminals about God's forgiveness.  GREAT.  The message that no matter what horrible, unspeakable thing you do will always be forgiven by God, and that in the end His forgiveness is all that matters sounds like just a super way to convince people to go ahead and give in to their violent urges, and repent later.  Pretty sure that is not the message that decent people with true faith want floating around. 

 

His wife seems like a nice and smart enough lady, and I can make no sense of her unflinching loyalty to Chapman for all these years.  I can see her forgiving him, and having love in her heart for him because she is the one person who doesn't define him by that one unspeakable act, but to not say her goodbyes and move forward with her life doesn't make sense to me at all.

 

I don't think I can ever watch this episode again.  It was physically painful, the emotions hit me so hard.  I was riveted, my mouth was open the whole time, the story intrigued me in a macabre way, and I hope now that I can shake it out of my head forever.

[Yokosmom]

I'm pretty sure the parents kept her from being questioned, even though she saw the kidnapper. They figured she'd speak when she was ready. In the meantime, Elizabeth was being raped daily. Very poor decision, IMO.

 

This was bugging me a bit so I looked it up.  She did speak to the police, though her description of the kidnapper wasn't very accurate.  It was the police who told the family not to try to pry memories out of the girl and to wait for them to come naturally.  It must have been very difficult for the parents to follow those directions, but they did pay off in the end.  Sorry to get off topic a bit, as Baba hasn't covered this case (yet?).

 

I go back and forth on the Ramsey's.  The true crime boards that I've been on have a strong contingent of folks who think that Burke accidentally injured his sister and that the parents covered it up to save him (since JonBenet was either dead or dying).  But you'd think that if that was so, they'd call an ambulance and claim that the child slipped in the shower or something--not garotte her. There's a lot of really odd things that point towards the parents--the note, the food in JonBenet's stomach, their stonewalling of the cops, but none of it is definitive enough for me to 100% vote for a conviction in a trial.  I believe that if the parents were involved, it was to cover up an accident and not some twisted serial sexual molestation, but what do I know.

 

Interesting that they asked Kenda to look at the case.  He was wise to keep out of it.

 

but to not say her goodbyes and move forward with her life doesn't make sense to me at all.

 

Didn't know that about Chapman's wife.  Bizarre, to say the least.

[andromeda331]

There's a lot of really odd things that point towards the parents--the note, the food in JonBenet's stomach, their stonewalling of the cops, but none of it is definitive enough for me to 100% vote for a conviction in a trial.

Wasn't her body found in a room that seemed unlikely someone breaking into their house would know of? Unless, I'm

remembering wrong the cops looked through the house and then her dad remembered the room and they found her there?

[MsTree]

Wasn't her body found in a room that seemed unlikely someone breaking into their house would know of? Unless, I'm

remembering wrong the cops looked through the house and then her dad remembered the room and they found her there?

That is my recollection as well.

[Yokosmom]

Wasn't her body found in a room that seemed unlikely someone breaking into their house would know of? Unless, I'm

remembering wrong the cops looked through the house and then her dad remembered the room and they found her there?

 

People who believe in the intruder scenario believe that the initial break-in came via the window in that basement room.

[RedheadZombie]

If the intruder entered during a house tour and hid inside, he had plenty of time to explore the house while the family was gone.

The Ramsey's hired the former director of the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit to investigate her murder. He said evidence supported the intruder theory and I believe he's the one who found the taser marks. His investigation was included in his book, The Cases that Haunt Us. The book was fascinating. I read it while on the treadmill and it frightened me a bit.

[RedheadZombie]

This was bugging me a bit so I looked it up.  She did speak to the police, though her description of the kidnapper wasn't very accurate.  It was the police who told the family not to try to pry memories out of the girl and to wait for them to come naturally.  It must have been very difficult for the parents to follow those directions, but they did pay off in the end.  Sorry to get off topic a bit, as Baba hasn't covered this case (yet?).

I'm going off an interview with the Smart parents. Ed definitely gave the impression that they sheltered Mary-Katherine from interrogation. But my earlier point was that it's this type of thing that can be innocent, and yet is immediately viewed as suspicious by some. Another example: Mary-Katherine initially believed Elizaberh was taken with a gun. Yet the Smarts claim MK came to them and stated Elizabeth was taken with a knife. Quite an inconsistency, yet we know the Smarts weren't guilty of anything.

[cooksdelight]

Jim & Tammy Faye Bakker.... I had forgotten all about them, the scandal, the money, Heritage USA theme park...what a sordid story. Jim is still preying on people's fears for money. First, the fear of going to hell. Now the fear of the world coming to an end and you not having his plastic survival gear.

[WescottF1]

Bakker, and televangelists as a whole, are proof that P.T. Barnum was right.

[cooksdelight]

Notice that one of the most respected and revered preachers in the U.S. has never had a TV show. Billy Graham. Yes, he's been on television, but it was usually just a special type of show, not something that was broadcast 24/7.

The 1996 interview Barbara did with Jim, he actually seemed somewhat remorseful. And when she asked if he was conning her, I believe he was. Based on what he's doing now.

[WescottF1]

When they showed Tammy Faye's final interview, she looked like something straight out of The Walking Dead.  I would have thought she would have been far too vain to appear on TV like that.

[Guest]

Finally got around to watching the Menendez brothers episode and came away with two thoughts:

1.) Oh, how I mourn the loss of Prison Wives on ID not only because Tammy would be a perfect subject but mostly because that show was so damned awesome.

2.) Barabra Walters seems to have some f-ed up crush on Erik who seems like nothing more than a sociopath to me.

[smittykins]

I felt so bad for her. The voiceover said that she died the very next day after that interview. I believe it.

I always felt sympathy towards Tammy, given the Hahn scandal and Jim basically shunting her aside due to his Heritage USA obsession. IMHO, she didn't deserve to die like that.

Edited December 18, 2015 by smittykins

[cooksdelight]

Mary Kay whateverhernameisnow.... she's as nutty as a fruitcake, still today. A grownass woman doesn't have sex with a 12-year old and think it's OK if she's not mentally ill.

[smittykins]

I can't believe they were allowed to get married.

[cooksdelight]

Me either. And the way they answered Barbara's questions today, while raising two teenage girls.... just wow.....they act like kids themselves.

[WescottF1]

I suppose once he turned 21 or so, there wasn't a whole lot that could be done to legally prevent it from happening.  They're both adults at that point and were bound and determined to be together come hell or high water.  I'm not saying it's right, but at that point it wasn't illegal anymore.

 

It was quite strange when Barbara asked Mary Kay if it was all worth it and she started to answer the question only to have Vili stop her and ask BW if the question could be re-asked so MK could simply answer, "Yes."  Controlling much?

[cooksdelight]

THAT was the strangest moment of the interview. He's definitely in charge, and Mary Kay just goes along.

I'd love to know what her other 4 children think.

[Ororo Monroe]

I suppose once he turned 21 or so, there wasn't a whole lot that could be done to legally prevent it from happening.  They're both adults at that point and were bound and determined to be together come hell or high water.  I'm not saying it's right, but at that point it wasn't illegal anymore.

 

It was quite strange when Barbara asked Mary Kay if it was all worth it and she started to answer the question only to have Vili stop her and ask BW if the question could be re-asked so MK could simply answer, "Yes."  Controlling much?

The whole thing is so creepy and wrong. I watched this episode and was cringing the whole time.

[cooksdelight]

When Barbara interviewed her the first time, she'd just gotten out of prison, 7 years, correct? I color my hair, that was not even close to being 7 years of hair growth for her dark roots to be showing. Do they allow prisoners to dye their hair?

[smittykins]

I suppose once he turned 21 or so, there wasn't a whole lot that could be done to legally prevent it from happening. They're both adults at that point and were bound and determined to be together come hell or high water. I'm not saying it's right, but at that point it wasn't illegal anymore.

ISTR that they had to go to court to have the no-contact order lifted after he turned 21.

ETA: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Kay_Letourneau#Release_from_prison_and_marriage_to_Fualaau

Edited December 22, 2015 by smittykins

[Ina123]

It was quite strange when Barbara asked Mary Kay if it was all worth it and she started to answer the question only to have Vili stop her and ask BW if the question could be re-asked so MK could simply answer, "Yes."  Controlling much?

 

But notice she didn't answer with just "yes" the second time. She answered the same way she began the first time..

[cooksdelight]

They kept showing that photo of 12-year old Villi and Mary Kay, looking at him sideways with that crazy expression. Sums up my thoughts on who and what they are.

[grumpypanda]

I just watched the Mary Kay episode and this case never fails to get my blood boiling. Mary is a sick deranged person and I don't care if they are married now. She molested a little boy and destroyed his life. Villi is obviously not doing well and I'm not buying their happy family act.

I can't believe she had the nerve to act like he was the aggressor. He was 12 for God's sake and she was 34. I'm in my thirties and I can't fathom seeing a 12 year old in a sexual way.

I call bull shit that she didn't realize it was illegal. She might act like a immature child but I don't believe that she's as dumb as she would like people to think. He was a little boy and she was a predator.

I feel sorry for her six children but especially sorry for the two girls she had with Villi. I wonder if she has a relationship with her other four children.

Edited December 22, 2015 by grumpypanda

[cooksdelight]

There was a movie about Mary Kay that hinted she had an incestous relationship with her brother. I don't know how true any of that is, but she seems to have had some type of stunted emotional growth. Which doesn't excuse her molesting a 12-year old, by any means. She's mentally ill, in my opinion, and Villi isn't too far behind her.

[Cobb Salad]

I tried to watch last night but fell asleep. When this was first happening I couldn't fathom how she would be interested in a 12 year old boy or how he came on to her. Anyway was it ever mentioned last night what either one of them does for a living? She can't teach anymore and he probably doesn't have much of an education to get a good paying job. What a train wreck.

[cooksdelight]

Mary Kay works at a law firm, as some type of assistant. I'm not sure if it was mentioned what Villi does, but he's got a very noticeable scar on his face.

[Sammich63]

He works nights as a club DJ. I feel for the two girls, but more so for her other four children. Villi seems unhappy to me.
 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Sammich63