S31.E10: Like Selling Your Soul to the Devil / S31.E11: My Wheels Are Spinning

[Turtle]

My biggest takeaway from these two episodes is that apparently Savage thinks he is some sort of teenage surfer. Or something, I don't even know.

I can understand worrying about Joe having an idol and so splitting the vote, but I think it is a completely ridiculous plan when you suspect that *you* are also on the target list - you need to be sure that someone other than you gets more votes than you (especially with all this dumb "bloc" talk, which seems to mean that you just can't trust anyone). Stephen needed to pick one other target, and focus on them and them only. Which, yes, means he needed to stop worrying so damn much about Joe- he should have either taken his shot and risked Joe having the idol, in which case Stephen leaves anyway, or turn all the votes to Abi. Instead he set up a scenario that left him vulnerable if even one person didn't vote the way he wanted them to. Total waste of what should have been a powerful advantage by Stephen, and total waste of what may be one of very few opportunities to get out Joe by everyone else.

I like Stephen on RHAP, but he has a tendency to over-complicate things and miss the obvious in the process.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Yes, two tribal councils in row, it honestly never even seemed to OCCUR to Stephen that he could receive votes!  He seemed to think the only person who voted for Stephen was Joe!

[LanceM]

Also Wentworth isn't as smart as people think she is. If she were truly clever instead of waiting for Abi to leave all she had to do was "accidently" drop the pendant she wears around her neck through the bambo...it's not like Abi is the kind of person who would graciously volunteer to go under the shelter to look for it so there was the perfect excuse. I really, really wanted her to get caught red handed.

 

I am sorry but I fail to see how it would be smarter to use some kind of trickery by dropping her pendent through the bamboo in front of Abi and then going to retrieve it (with Abi watching) as opposed to just waiting for Abi to leave where she was by herself and nobody watching.

 

(not to mention the fact that it is quite possible that Abi does try to help her find her pendent under the shelter since they seem to be pretty close on the island)

[Arkay]

Bryce Lynch, thank you

[truthaboutluv]

Classic Manipulator Tactic.  I could, however, watch Spencer trying to coax Abi on loop.  He was so desperate, he was practically whining. He sounded near tears, though it may have been in my head.  Spencer's displays of emotion continue to bewilder me in the most entertaining ways.

 

 

I didn't see it that way. To me he seemed frustrated which I feel that way just watching Abi from the comfort of my home so I can't imagine being out there, tired, wet, hungry and stressed and having to deal with her bullshit. He just seemed baffled and wanting to placate her but not say the wrong thing which with Abi and her crazy, could be anything. 

 

How ironic that he did pretty much what Kass did. Got his panties in a bunch that his alliance didn't value him enough, felt insecure, and flipped.

 

 

I didn't see Spencer's move that way. I never heard him say anything about not being valued enough and he certainly didn't get into any tiffs with anyone like Kass did with Sarah and whine about everyone taking her side. Spencer seemed quite calm and pragmatic in simply saying that Jeremy's move showed him how tight he and Stephen really were and then Stephen choosing Jeremy and Tasha for the reward solidified that they, along with Kimmi, were likely the real alliance despite all this talk of no alliance. And so he realized he had to do something or he would simply be dragged along for numbers and then booted down the road. 

 

I don't think it was stupid to not vote out Joe. Stephen had just cemented his alliance in front of everyone and they were supposed to just vote however Stephen wanted? Why? So the top 3 in the alliance could just vote everyone else off one by one? I'm glad they finally made it interesting, of course I'm not expecting it to last. At this point, I saw keeping Joe as a way of preserving the #'s momentarily and weakening the only true alliance in the game. Joe can't win every single challenge and he just proved it. The talk before was about having the voting block with the strongest members, Joe is the strongest and a shield to everyone bc he's always up as a target.

 

 

I agree. 

 

Joe deserves to win this game. He loses immunity and manages to bamboozle people into voting out Fish. He was of course helped by Spencer who wanted Fish out. But I'm not sure what Spencer's reasoning was. He was more threatened by that block of 4 than Joe?

 

 

Joe didn't do anything. Spencer, along with Wentworth and hell even Keith realized, because it wasn't too subtle, that for all the talk of voting blocs and no alliance, the closest in the the game was Jeremy, Tasha, Stephen and Kimmi. And yes I would say a block of 4 is more dangerous than one guy, no matter how many immunity challenges he can win. 

 

Yes we know just last season Mike immunity won his way to the end but Mike did make moves and played a decent game aside from just winning immunity challenges. These aren't all new players who would be on the jury and I think someone who can argue that they made significant moves, while also having to get to the end without winning immunity could beat Joe, as nice as he is. 

 

It really bugs that in the first episode Tasha calls the choice to compete selfish. To me, it's not selfish, its playing the damned game. I don't buy it at all. Whatever Tasha.

 

 

I did like that this was one time where Joe wasn't passive and spoke up immediately to defend his decision and rightly state that had he not done it, he'd be going home. 

 

eta: I will say that it was interesting that Tasha did vote for Stephen in that first tribal council when Jeremy played the idol but that's pretty much what Spencer was saying about Stephen's choice for reward. Picking Tasha when Spencer voted for him, as did Keith, etc. made it clear that Tasha is who they were looking to solidify and Jeremy and Kimmi were clearly with him. So that's your four and an alliance of four unchecked can absolutely run away with the game. 

Edited November 26, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[Trick Question]

Ok Probst, you win, I'll refer to them as 'voting blocs' from now on.  Why fight it?

 

Bloc #1: Kelley and Abi
Bloc #2: Jeremy, Kimmi, Tasha
The floating bloc: Spencer, Joe, Keith

 

Not a great night for Jeremy.  Voting out Wigglesworth alienated Tasha, Keith and (sorta) Kimmi, then going out of his way to save Fishbach alienated Tasha/Keith even more, and then Fishbach got eliminated.  I still have to believe Joe is the biggest target if he loses immunity again, but he wins another challenge, then the target is firmly on Jeremy's back and he'll have to use his HII.  Tasha may well jump ship and vote against Jeremy in that scenario as well.

 

I'd love to know the reasoning for targeting Ciera over Wentworth.  I know Ciera 'stirs things up,' but isn't Wentworth considered the bigger overall threat, hence the 9-3 vote against her a few weeks ago?  Maybe I'm underestimating Ciera since she did swing the vote Stephen's way and the plan would've worked had Jeremy not used his idol.

 

This season is a lot of fun.  Probst is overdoing the 'voting bloc' thing but there actually is a lot of very fluid strategy being played from round to round.  The last two all-returning player seasons featured pretty much standard Pagongings but things haven't been nearly as predictable this time around.

 

Classic Manipulator Tactic.  I could, however, watch Spencer trying to coax Abi on loop.  He was so desperate, he was practically whining. He sounded near tears, though it may have been in my head.  Spencer's displays of emotion continue to bewilder me in the most entertaining ways.

I really want to see a sitcom of Spencer and Abi having to share an apartment for a month.

[willpwr]

[quote name="North of Eden" post="1749979" timestamp="1448513452"

 

Also Wentworth isn't as smart as people think she is. If she were truly clever instead of waiting for Abi to leave all she had to do was "accidently" drop the pendant she wears around her neck through the bambo...it's not like Abi is the kind of person who would graciously volunteer to go under the shelter to look for it so there was the perfect excuse. I really, really wanted her to get caught red handed.

So it would have been smart and clever to potentially blow up her game by underestimating someone else? Maybe she believes it's better/smarter to play it safe and wait for the risk to be lowered. I don't see anything wrong with that. There's such a thing as being too clever for one's own good and underestimating oponents just like Stephen showed.

[yamashinaryu]

Tasha is the new definition of goat. 

[Knuckles]

" I did like that this was one time where Joe wasn't passive and spoke up immediately to defend his decision..."

 

Agreed. And Tasha would have done the same if she had as big a target painted on her back as Joe wears on his. Also liked Joe's answer that being the #1 target ...."sucked, but that's the game".  And it is. 

 

With Stephen out, is Tasha the next target? Or will Jeremy finally be in everyone's sights? 

[green]

I don't think it was stupid to not vote out Joe. Stephen had just cemented his alliance in front of everyone and they were supposed to just vote however Stephen wanted? Why? So the top 3 in the alliance could just vote everyone else off one by one? I'm glad they finally made it interesting, of course I'm not expecting it to last. At this point, I saw keeping Joe as a way of preserving the #'s momentarily and weakening the only true alliance in the game. Joe can't win every single challenge and he just proved it. The talk before was about having the voting block with the strongest members, Joe is the strongest and a shield to everyone bc he's always up as a target.

 

I totally agree.  First time Joe loses it will be an easy vote for the tribe if they want that.  If he loses again.  But if he makes finals it's his "challenge" stuff versus the real strategy person left (probably Kelly, Spencer or Jeremy or combo thereof) so I don't see him winning.

 

My DVR cut off before they showed Stephen's farewell speech and who voted for whom...can someone fill me in?

 

The new allia ... err voting block of Spencer, Kelly, Keith and Peaceful Abi voted out Stephen.

 

Correction:  Someone else got the votes right which is good cause I forgot how the other group split it up.  Except for how Stephen split his vote.  Stephen, always playing to the camera, played nice with it in his last 10 seconds of TV fame.

 

I liked the footage, editing and Kelly's narration of getting that idol.  Now that was a real fun segment.  But I don't understand why Stephen's side thought Joe might have found it though.  Because if they weren't pretty sure he had it well ... they already screwed up with split votes at that other TC.  You'd think they would have learned their lesson.

 

Jeremy said the other week he was playing for Val and his family.  This week he appeared to be playing for Stephen instead.  Insanely stupid move.  Exposed himself.  Wasted a valuable idol.  And let Spencer know (along with Stephen's reward picks) that he was at the bottom of that allia ... voting block so pretty much destroyed his whole game plan as a result.  He would be a fool NOT to know that the others wouldn't re-double their efforts to get Stephen and his advantage out of the game the very next time.  His only hope now is to hope Tasha is targeted before him and/or use his lone idol and hope he can become a Sandra-style vote for hire.

 

I mean really, going against the whole entire group to save Stephen was one of the most stupidest moves I've ever seen in the game.  Even Tasha and Kimmi, in his alliance, were down with voting out Stephen.  Way to turn everyone against you in one second.  And having two idols with this low of numbers left may well have assured himself in the finals.  NOT wasting one on Stephen.  And you want Stephen on the jury anyway since he is a lock to vote for you.  Dumb, dumb, dumb.

 

Good for Spencer to figure out the numbers finally and with him and Kelly working together and using Joe as a shield the game may have changed big time this episode.  I like Jeremy but dude screwed up a walk in the park and good for Spencer not sitting on his thumps and getting up and doing something about it asap.

 

Batshit crazy Abi adds the whacky to the game.  Go Abi, mess with all their depleted minds.

 

I really liked storytelling time.  I hate "challenges" that feature puzzles, untying knots, more puzzles, unlocking keys, still more puzzles, tossing balls, and, you know, this thing called puzzles.  Old school is good school.

 

Ironic that Spencer losing by a second to Stephen for the second time (along with the "advantage" swim) lead directly to Stephen's exit and Spencer looking like he and Kelly both have good shots at the finals now.  Liking this season a lot.

Edited November 26, 2015 by green

[North of Eden]

So it would have been smart and clever to potentially blow up her game by underestimating someone else? Maybe she believes it's better/smarter to play it safe and wait for the risk to be lowered. I don't see anything wrong with that. There's such a thing as being too clever for one's own good and underestimating oponents just like Stephen showed.

There was no guarantee Abi would leave BEFORE someone else or the entire group came back. If you are going to dupe anyone she would be your most logical choice. Besides as it was it appeared she just barely got out in time.

[Zuleikha]

Joe has to because if he doesn't, he's out - that's not selfish, that's smart.

Not necessarily. That was proven in the second episode when Fishbach was booted over him. Joe knew at that point that both Ciera and Stephen were being discussed as targets. I don't blame him for doing it, but I also think it was the very definition of selfish. He didn't want to have to strategize like everyone else, and he put his own desire for security over the best interest of the group.

 

I missed the first 15 minutes of the first episode, so I'm unclear on whether there was fallout from the Spencer/Jeremy/Stephen flip or not. In the part I saw, it didn't seem like it, but I was wondering if that was what opened the door for Tasha to flip with Spencer. 

 

I don't think Stephen taking Tasha and Jeremy was the worst strategy in the world, but my jaw dropped when he explicitly said it was about mending relationships with his alliance for Tasha. (ha, so much for voting blocs...) That is Survivor 101-level foolishness. Don't explicitly call out your alliances! Make up a BS reason. 

 

I would think Jeremy made a bad move burning his idol on Stephen if Jeremy didn't have another one. Joe is still a major target, and it seems like people have been coming to Jeremy on every move. It seems like it will be challenging to blindside Jeremy without him noticing a change of behavior. So IMHO people not named Kelley Wentworth are running out of time to do anything more than play for best runner up, and I'm not actually sure who wins between Jeremy and Kelley... probably depends on how they get there and who does what with their second immunity idol.

 

I feel like my theory about Abi being calmer when she knows she's on the bottom is holding up. She's included in big group strategizing and the paranoia comes back out. But maybe it's always been more editing than an actual change in behavior.

[BigRedCheese]

I don't know, no offense, but the dropping the pendant through the bamboo thing doesn't sound like a terribly bright way of going about it. If the pendant didn't fall through and bounced off(which, let's face it, is most likely what would happen), does she just continue to pretend to drop it until it works? Even if it falls through, she still has to untie the thing, even Abi would probably get suspicious. There's no guarantee that Abi wouldn't scurry under and try to help her find it. Best not to get too cute with it and just wait for everybody to leave, which obviously worked anyway.

[Lingo]

OMG, that was such an amazing and entertaining two hours! It was hilarious reading the live comments in this thread after. "I'm not gonna watch, it's so obvious Joe's leaving!"  *lol*

 

BTW, no one's mentioned (unless it's in the 16 posts that appeared while I was writing this one) that if Abi really DID jump ship and voted for Joe, all hell would have broken loose! It would have been a 3-way tie (3 each for Joe, Abi, and Stephen), and in the revote none of them could have voted (and no idols could be played). So the revote would have come down to Jeremy/Tasha/Kimmi vs. Spencer/Kelley/Keith -- either ANOTHER tie and a rock draw, or someone would have flipped. I would really like to have seen what would have happened in that situation!

 

Bwaaaaahahahaha

Seriously, Stephen = Dan and I love it. How great was that?

I kind of wanted Kelly's idol to be at the challenge but I guess that wouldn't have been possible.

 

Actually, Stephen was trying to be the opposite of Dan. Dan, as you remember, played his advantage and got knocked out due to an idol. Stephen orchestrated the split vote to avoid being idoled out. But, well, it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

Still, it says something about Stephen that he got a majority of votes TWICE in a row in the SAME episode, and they were BOTH blindsides! I don't know what it says, but it says something!

 

Dear Survivor "Expert,"

What good is it to be allowed to steal someone else's vote....and then instead of using your vote and his vote to vote one person out, you split the votes between two people? Was it a brain fart? Had you reached a level of smug that caused you to momentarily think that you were running the show? Or was your Joe-obsession so out of control, so nauseating and border line awkward that all you could think was that stealing JOE'S vote to vote for JOE was going to go down as the coolest, most symbolic move EVER, and that you'd finally showed up the Golden Boy? Here's a hint: that might have worked if you used both votes on Joe and he actually HAD gone to the jury. Seriously, what the fuck?

 

Obviously, he was worried about an idol and thought they needed another Abi vote, and he was expecting more votes for Joe. And even if he had voted for Joe twice, he still would have gone home.

 

I'm also so happy that Fish got got, finally.  I liked him in his first season, but here his brand of nervous energy was working my last nerve.    I have no idea what he was doing by how badly he handled both the reward and his special power.   Also glad Joe outlasted him.

 

All you people saying Fish handled the reward poorly, I'd like to hear what you think he should have done, because no one's given an alternative and I honestly don't know what would have been best. Obviously he pissed off Spencer, but Tasha was already on the fence and Jeremy would have been pissed if he hadn't been chosen. No matter what Fish did, someone was gonna be pissed. (Except Kimmi, apparently.)

 

Joe deserves to win this game. He loses immunity and manages to bamboozle people into voting out Fish. He was of course helped by Spencer who wanted Fish out. But I'm not sure what Spencer's reasoning was. He was more threatened by that block of 4 than Joe?

 

Well yeah, a block of 4 is almost insurmountable once you're down to 8. Joe is just Joe. I know he's a challenge threat but I don't think he'll win every challenge. Even Mike last season lost one and had to be saved by an idol.

 

OK, time to read more comments!

[Wandering Snark]

I didn't like the "advantage", and would have called some serious BS had his vote(s) made any difference because one of the basic tenets of Survivor is you can't vote for yourself. It's Joe's vote, he can't be made to vote for himself, no matter how cool Fish thinks it is.

 

But then I also feel for him as they screwed him by announcing what the advantage was and what would happen BEFORE the vote. To me that would have said "Wow I better really vote for him then" were I considering it. The advantage should have been after the vote (make the player last to vote) and he'd have then been given three "votes": One for whose vote he's stealing, write that down, show it to the camera. "That person now votes for ___" and my vote is.. write that down.

 

Otherwise, like he said, it's really a dis-advantage. But the way it worked tonight?? Couldn't have happened to a better guy. C-ya Mr. KnowNothing.

[BigRedCheese]

 

I didn't like the "advantage

 

I didn't either, too Big Brotherish. 

[Sarahsmile416]

Not necessarily. That was proven in the second episode when Fishbach was booted over him. Joe knew at that point that both Ciera and Stephen were being discussed as targets. I don't blame him for doing it, but I also think it was the very definition of selfish. He didn't want to have to strategize like everyone else, and he put his own desire for security over the best interest of the group.

I missed the first 15 minutes of the first episode, so I'm unclear on whether there was fallout from the Spencer/Jeremy/Stephen flip or not. In the part I saw, it didn't seem like it, but I was wondering if that was what opened the door for Tasha to flip with Spencer.

I don't think Stephen taking Tasha and Jeremy was the worst strategy in the world, but my jaw dropped when he explicitly said it was about mending relationships with his alliance for Tasha. (ha, so much for voting blocs...) That is Survivor 101-level foolishness. Don't explicitly call out your alliances! Make up a BS reason.

I would think Jeremy made a bad move burning his idol on Stephen if Jeremy didn't have another one. Joe is still a major target, and it seems like people have been coming to Jeremy on every move. It seems like it will be challenging to blindside Jeremy without him noticing a change of behavior. So IMHO people not named Kelley Wentworth are running out of time to do anything more than play for best runner up, and I'm not actually sure who wins between Jeremy and Kelley... probably depends on how they get there and who does what with their second immunity idol.

I feel like my theory about Abi being calmer when she knows she's on the bottom is holding up. She's included in big group strategizing and the paranoia comes back out. But maybe it's always been more editing than an actual change in behavior.

He might know they were being discussed but he also knows the way the votes went in the Wigglesworth ousting that he didn't know whom he could trust, so why would he choose to just hinge his game on names being bandied about basically. I think he would have been stupid to take that as gospel especially after his number one alliance in the game was voted out by people he thought were in his alliance.

[mojoween]

Personally I think the smartest play for Stephen in the RC would have been to take the second place finisher, Spencer, in this case, and then when offered a second choice take Jeremy which everyone would understand because of the idol save the day before.

He might not have WANTED to take Spencer, but it would have been smarter. Or, take Tasha but don't stick your foot in your mouth when you do it. Come up with some bullshit reason on the fly.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I expected Kelley to play her idol for Joe, which would have knocked all the votes back to Stephen.  Then there's the potential of Jeremy playing his idol for Stephen a second time but that would have been way too wacky.  Either way you slice it I guess Stephen goes home.  I did not expect votes for Abi.  I don't know WTF Stephen was thinking.  The plan was convoluted.  Would Joe really have played so hard for Immunity if he had an idol?  He probably would.  But I can't imagine fucking Joe ever finding an idol.  Sorry.

 

I didn't see it that way. To me he seemed frustrated which I feel that way just watching Abi from the comfort of my home so I can't imagine being out there, tired, wet, hungry and stressed and having to deal with her bullshit. He just seemed baffled and wanting to placate her but not say the wrong thing which with Abi and her crazy, could be anything.

 

Not sure how what you're saying is different than what I did.  Perhaps you think I was making fun of Spencer and are trying to defend him?  I wasn't.  I think Spencer trying to deal with Abi is hilarious and I still do.  I think that Spencer's default mode is "frustrated" and Abi's default mode of "paranoid" was ramping up his frustration to 11, hence, me being tickled.

 

The conversation went something like this:

Spencer:  Abi, what is going on?

Abi:  I don't know, Spencer, what is going on?

Spencer:  Abi, the plan is what's going on.

Abi:  Whatever.  I'm ready to go home if I have to.

Spencer:   Abi, you're not though.

 

My italics denote his desperate whining.  I don't know how anyone could not find this dynamic so hilarious.  Usually, Spencer doesn't feel the need to really slow down what he's saying and really stare into someone's eyes.  This stuff is very tough for him.  This shows his desperation; he was willing to do this with Abi to make the plan work.  What continues to fascinate me here about Spencer is he had absolutely no joy or excitement in dealing with Abi to do this.  You could see a spark of it with Kelley; she had some confidence that Abi would go along.  Spencer was absolutely tormented.  The power of Abi over somebody like Spencer.  

Edited November 26, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[princelina]

I don't blame him for doing it, but I also think it was the very definition of selfish. He didn't want to have to strategize like everyone else, and he put his own desire for security over the best interest of the group.

You can call it selfish - but not because he "didn't want to strategize like everyone else."  It was definitely because he "put his own desire for security over the best interest of the group" but in his case I think the self-interest was obvious!  He needed that security in a way no on else did. They were making it obvious with faces and eye-rolls that when he lost immunity he was gone!  And if he were a Fishbach he might have had more to consider, but as a Joe he knew that he had a really really really good chance of winning that challenge!  So why drop out?  Not a PC way of getting it done, but he had to have known he had it made.

[jumper sage]

DVR cut off the ending vote tally.  If Stephen had put both votes for Abi would she have gone to jury?  Great season by the way.

[willpwr]

I think the smart thing to do would have been to take Jeremy. Jeremy should have been his first choice since he had just saved him. It would have been understandable. I don't think the issue is that he took Tasha, more that he spoke about their alliance in front of everyone after stressing that there was no hierarchy, that they're all equals, there's no alliance, just voting blocks... He contradicted himself in a huge way.

[Zuleikha]

You can call it selfish - but not because he "didn't want to strategize like everyone else."  It was definitely because he "put his own desire for security over the best interest of the group" but in his case I think the self-interest was obvious!  He needed that security in a way no on else did.

It was a selfish move. Whether it was a smart move or a justifiable move has nothing to do with whether it was a selfish move. I agree his self-interest was obvious, but I don't agree that he needed security more than Ciera, Kelley, Abi, or Fishbach did (ha, not that Fishbach knew it). And even though Spencer, Keith, Tasha, Kimmi, and Jeremy haven't had their names meaningfully up for the vote yet, they all saw how seemingly randomly Wiglesworth became the boot. 

 

All you people saying Fish handled the reward poorly, I'd like to hear what you think he should have done, because no one's given an alternative and I honestly don't know what would have been best.

The safest picks are Jeremy (because of the idol save) or Spencer (because of being such a close runner up). I'm not sure why Stephen went with Tasha over Spencer in the first place other than perhaps Spencer being right about the pecking order (but then why did Stephen leave Tasha out in the cold about the Wigles vote?). If Stephen really wanted Tasha, he needed to come up with a convincing reason that was ANYTHING other than "to shore up my alliance". No Survivor Know-It-All should forget the lesson of the coconut chop challenge!

[blackwing]

I find myself more and more irritated with Keith. The man has ZERO gameplay other than "try and win immunity and go with the flow and hope it's not me". I don't think we've seen any strategy from him at all. I can't remember if he had any his first time, but I would think not. I only remember his "stick with the plan" comment that doomed his alliance. He's a complete lemming that just votes for whoever someone tells him to vote for. I can't stand this type of player, the one that doesn't do any thinking and just rides coattails. Gervase in BvW, Monica in BvW, Woo. Keith is thoroughly useless.

He just has this bumbling idiot look. Huge buggy eyes that always look confused. They also really need to subtitle him. In the first hour, I could barely understand what he was saying.

[green]

Silly! Don't you know that the majority of posters here are smarter than the actual players and would play the game way better than Fish, Jeremy, Joe, and all the other morons? Because it's just as challenging to figure out everyone's game and strategy with your ass on a couch and being able to watch everyone's THs as it is being an actual contestant. And it's especially challenging when you know the spoilers and future outcomes!

Loved the eps though! The game can truly be anyone's at this point. Except perhaps Abi, who will never not be awful to me. I cannot see her winning the votes. Which, makes her a great goat. I would say she might be playing for 2nd place, but I think she just may be that awful. At least under Survivor conditions.

 

I'm not spoiled and I hope you weren't implying anything in your post about how the game will come out now.  Please don't.  And this is a forum for armchair QBs' so what is the problem?  (Edited to add:  Okay sorry, me bad with this.  Leaving it so the posts below make sense to anyone reading all these posts).

 

Anyway I'll happily armchair QB.   I think Stephen's best move would have been to lose a single winner reward challange cause he would know he would traditionally have to pick two others and expose his hand and leave the majority of the players behind plotting and planning in his absence.  Granted his body wanted the reward desperately but strategically it was the worst thing for him to win that challenge.  And being a so-called strategist he should have known this.  But again, his body didn't give a fig for strategy at that point.

Edited November 26, 2015 by green

[BigRedCheese]

 

I find myself more and more irritated with Keith. The man has ZERO gameplay

 

I thought that, but he kind of impressed me tonight. I thought Spencer's little coup would collapse as soon as they brought Keith in, but he followed through and switched sides, and didn't accidentally blow it up at Tribal, good for him.

[green]

DVR cut off the ending vote tally.  If Stephen had put both votes for Abi would she have gone to jury?  Great season by the way.

 

No there would have been a two way tie I think between Abi and Stephen at 4 each.

 

Abi and Stephen then could not vote in the re-vote and no idols can be used in a re-vote I believe so Stephen still should have gone with the votes being:

 

For Abi - Jeremy, Tasha, Kimmi

For Stephen - Spencer, Kelly, Keith, Joe

 

If Stephen's side had NOT split the vote and Stephen cancelled out Joe then cast two votes for their ONE target only (be it Joe or Abi) then Stephen would have survived.  Otherwise not.  So Stephen's advange could have worked. 

 

With a For Abi (or Joe ... one only of course) - Jeremy, Tasha, Kimmi, Stephen, Stephen (with Joe's vote) = 5 votes.  And For Stephen - Spencer, Kelly, Abi, Keith (with no vote allowed for Joe) = 4 votes.  Stephen then becomes the great kingpin using the new advantage sucessfully and creating an epic, history making moment in Survivor for the ages, at least in his own mind.  We also would never have heard the end of his chirping about it on TV and, for those who listen to him on that podcast, on that too.  Thank goodness he messed it up big time.

Edited November 26, 2015 by green

[azshadowwalker]

I'm not a Joe fan, but Fishbach has made me one. I've grown weary of his obsession. If the edited show is to be believed, it's one reason he focused on Kelly last week; she was "too close" to Joe. This week, he finally had a clear shot at Joe himself, and it blew up in his face. Laughing so damned hard. I still won't be sorry to see Joe leave, but seeing good ol' Fish bow out first did my heart good.

[Kromm]

How was it even remotely fair to have a reward challenge that was structured to allow Joe to be "in" everytime?  Bull.

[Lingo]

OK, amending my previous comment to say: Yeah, I agree, Stephen calling Tasha his "alliance mate" at the Reward Challenge was definitely a stupid move.

 

With Stephen out, is Tasha the next target? Or will Jeremy finally be in everyone's sights? 

 

Man, what kind of spell does Jeremy have over these people? In the second hour, when people were talking about voting out Stephen, I was simply shocked that they said if Stephen won immunity they'd vote out Tasha! Like come on, you just saw Jeremy personally save Stephen, don't you think he's Stephen's closest ally, not to mention a big threat in his own right? What does it take to finally put a target on him??

 

Gosh, this was such a fun episode. Both reward challenges were fun to watch for once, and the second one was educational and actually suspenseful. Plus the idol clue Kelly lucked onto again! The second immunity challenge was also suspenseful. After that IC ended, I actually started thinking that Spence screwed himself -- he should have let Joe win so that his tenuous alliance of 5 would stick to the plan and not vote out Joe. But it worked out anyway.

 

But back to the first episode: the rain was so tremendous, about the worst we've ever seen on this show maybe. I was pissed that the IC was yet another balance challenge, and annoyed that the shelter twist meant that Joe would win another easy one, but the twist was entertaining anyway. Jeremy playing his idol for Stephen was shocking. I don't know if it's as stupid as everyone says -- he was trying to keep his true alliance intact and make a big jury move -- but it was definitely questionable and didn't pay off in the end. The second RC, as I said, was a real old-school treat.

 

Then the IC, then Abi explodes again and all hell breaks loose. It was just so ENTERTAINING. The way she just stared silently at Kelley for what felt like an eternity! And the way she then just walked away, all, "I gotta go make a decision", like she's the Godfather or something! She's always staring at people and scowling, like she wants to murder someone! I think I've decided I'm going to miss her when she's gone because she's just so over the top!

 

And then the final IC, and I have to confess that after the vote I had to pause the show with my mouth wide open and think hard for several minutes to figure out exactly who voted for whom and how it could have all gone so wrong! I think it's because I only expected them to throw one vote at Abi (which would have been enough if they'd all voted for Joe as planned) and I thought that maybe Abi had actually defected and maybe Spencer flipped on Abi after hearing about the advantage, and I couldn't figure out how they got 4 votes for Stephen even after Joe's vote was stolen, and actually started wondering if Kimmi and/or Tasha had actually flipped on Stephen. But I got it eventually.  Blah blah blah all I'm trying to say here is that I was hugely entertained tonight.

 

Happy turkey day!

[green]

I've spoiled nothing and wasn't directing that comment towards anyone in particular nor trying to shame anyone. I was snarking on the snark, because I find it all very amusing.

So, there is no problem.

I don't care about armchair QBing, that's part of the fun of message boards. I just find it, again, highly amusing to refer to some contestants as morons, dumbasses, etc. because they weren't able to figure out something that we were figuring out from home due to THs and being in the comfort of our couch or bed or bar stool. And some of us also have the advantage of being spoiled.

 

Okay thanks.  I thought there might be some hidden meassge regards spoilers so glad there wasn't.  Sorry I didn't understand you were joking too.  Me bad.  Also, me sleepy.

 

And I agree that we see way more than the Survivors or Amazing Racers or whoever see with editors directing us along their storyline of choice.  And that we experience less than they do and don't have fatigue etc to deal with.  So I usually cut most Racers especially some slack and some Survivors.  But Jeremy's idol play gets no slack from me.  That was terrible for him.  Not that he can't come up with a new Plan B to make it all the way.  But having to do that when he had a clear and seemingly easy path to the finals is like shooting himself in the foot a mile before the end of the marathon.

 

And of course Stephen's lack of any real strategic view and his obession with getting Joe out over anything else was just poor play period.  He was as focused on Joe as Abi was focused earlier on Woo.  Stephen and Abi as equally poor strategists, hah, I like that.

Edited November 26, 2015 by green

[princelina]

It was a selfish move. Whether it was a smart move or a justifiable move has nothing to do with whether it was a selfish move. I agree his self-interest was obvious, but I don't agree that he needed security more than Ciera, Kelley, Abi, or Fishbach did (ha, not that Fishbach knew it). And even though Spencer, Keith, Tasha, Kimmi, and Jeremy haven't had their names meaningfully up for the vote yet, they all saw how seemingly randomly Wiglesworth became the boot. 

 

He may not have "needed" security more than the rest, but he certainly believed (knew) that he did!  When he said that he would have been voted out that night without immunity, he was correct (in his mind - and I believe in most of ours!)  So while his move may have been "selfish" - it was also a move he made in a game he was trying to win.  Emphasis on GAME he wanted to WIN.  Whether or not he was correct, he was doing what was best for himself in the game.  Knowing now that he is going to make it to the point of the game where his dad shows up - that's what I knew he wanted and since I like him I am thrilled he made it this far :)  

[Artsda]

I laughed out loud of Fishback's big twist of stealing Joe's vote didn't even work and he got himself voted out instead.

[slowpoked]

 

Also Wentworth isn't as smart as people think she is. If she were truly clever instead of waiting for Abi to leave all she had to do was "accidently" drop the pendant she wears around her neck through the bambo...it's not like Abi is the kind of person who would graciously volunteer to go under the shelter to look for it so there was the perfect excuse. I really, really wanted her to get caught red handed.

Except that they've been friends, and allies, since the beginning of the merge. I could easily see Abi trying to help because she thinks that's what friends so:

 

Wentworth successfully "drops" her necklace on the ground.

Wentworth: Hey Abi, I dropped my necklace, I'm just gonna go under the shelter to find it.

Abi: Gosh, that's so awful. Here, let me help you...

Wentworth: No, really. I can manage. Just continue on with your coffee.

Abi: No, I'll help. Girl, it's hard to find a necklace in the sand, and you have to crawl underneath!

Wentworth: No really! I'll do this on my own!!!

Abi: WHY DON'T YOU WANT MY HELP??? What's going on here Kelley? Are you ok? Are you hiding something from me?

 

Abi is probably the only person on that island who can easily turn a polite rejection of assistance into paranoia.

[GaT]

I don’t think that the “we’ll build you a better shelter” thing was always planned, for them to do that, the rain must have been seriously dangerous to everyone. Or the ratings.

 

I don’t really like the challenges where everyone has to beat each other up, it doesn’t seem fair to put people in a position where they could be seriously hurt.

 

Jeremy is a moron for saving Stephen, & Stephen is a moron for not picking Jeremy first for the reward challenge. I’m glad he is gone.

 

I wouldn’t vote Abi out, I would drown her & burn her body in the fire.

[Subrookie]

Would have laughed if the Idol Clue Kelley found during the challenge told her where it was hidden in the challenge. She did get her first HII hidden in a challenge. Get back to camp, brag to the cameraman, open the clue and find that out, that would have been great TV.

[princelina]

Kelley W should have done what Boston Rob taught us all  - "Abi, let's go down to the water -- now I've got to poop!"  at that point Kelley could have run off to do it while no one would have been the wiser . . .

[SnideAsides]

Probst on whether you should win an individual reward challenge:

Survivor has changed.  It’s a game for winners — meaning, the game has evolved so much that weak ass players have a very hard time winning. Just look at the recent history. It’s been a long time since a “lesser of two evils” won the game.

Indeed. It's been a whole two-thirds of a season since that happened.

[Lingo]

I didn't like the "advantage", and would have called some serious BS had his vote(s) made any difference because one of the basic tenets of Survivor is you can't vote for yourself. It's Joe's vote, he can't be made to vote for himself, no matter how cool Fish thinks it is.

 

But then I also feel for him as they screwed him by announcing what the advantage was and what would happen BEFORE the vote. To me that would have said "Wow I better really vote for him then" were I considering it. The advantage should have been after the vote (make the player last to vote) and he'd have then been given three "votes": One for whose vote he's stealing, write that down, show it to the camera. "That person now votes for ___" and my vote is.. write that down.

 

Otherwise, like he said, it's really a dis-advantage.

 

I don't agree with your first point -- it's no longer Joe's vote, it's Fish's -- but I do find it interesting that they made him announce his advantage before the vote, which Dan didn't have to do. That allows people to rethink their vote. That, combined with the fact that he won it publicly and thus made himself a target, definitely reduces its power. Perhaps too much -- it's now failed two seasons in a row, so I think players might start to avoid winning it. I think if they do it again on a future season, they should remove one of those disadvantages: either allow the player to win the advantage secretly (like an idol) or let the player announce its use after the vote.

 

Personally I think the smartest play for Stephen in the RC would have been to take the second place finisher, Spencer, in this case, and then when offered a second choice take Jeremy which everyone would understand because of the idol save the day before.

He might not have WANTED to take Spencer, but it would have been smarter. Or, take Tasha but don't stick your foot in your mouth when you do it. Come up with some bullshit reason on the fly.

 

That's a good argument, I'll take it. And I thank everyone else who responded to my churlish challenge. You all had good arguments for what Stephen should have done.

 

The conversation went something like this:

Spencer:  Abi, what is going on?

Abi:  I don't know, Spencer, what is going on?

Spencer:  Abi, the plan is what's going on.

Abi:  Whatever.  I'm ready to go home if I have to.

Spencer:   Abi, you're not though.

 

My italics denote his desperate whining.  I don't know how anyone could not find this dynamic so hilarious.  Usually, Spencer doesn't feel the need to really slow down what he's saying and really stare into someone's eyes.  This stuff is very tough for him.  This shows his desperation; he was willing to do this with Abi to make the plan work.  What continues to fascinate me here about Spencer is he had absolutely no joy or excitement in dealing with Abi to do this.  You could see a spark of it with Kelley; she had some confidence that Abi would go along.  Spencer was absolutely tormented.  The power of Abi over somebody like Spencer.  

 

Are you sure that's not an exact transcript? Because that's exactly what I remember :) I was also tickled. But I was even more tickled by her interaction with Kelley, her scowl and her Godfather attitude and Kelley's eye-rolls. Oh and Kelley's exasperation at trying to get rid of her when she wanted to grab the idol was yet another golden moment from this episode. I guess Ciera really was the glue holding those two together -- they could barely rein Abi in this week.

 

I find myself more and more irritated with Keith. The man has ZERO gameplay other than "try and win immunity and go with the flow and hope it's not me". I don't think we've seen any strategy from him at all. I can't remember if he had any his first time, but I would think not. I only remember his "stick with the plan" comment that doomed his alliance. He's a complete lemming that just votes for whoever someone tells him to vote for. I can't stand this type of player, the one that doesn't do any thinking and just rides coattails. Gervase in BvW, Monica in BvW, Woo. Keith is thoroughly useless.

 

I'm willing to give him a slight pass, simply because I think the editors will sometimes completely ignore a player who doesn't win and whose gameplay turns out to be completely inconsequential to the plot (though to be honest that's not a great sign either). Like, say, Kimmi. Or to use another example, I think Erik had a little more gameplay going on in FvF2 than we saw but it turned out to be irrelevant when he got evacuated. On the other hand, there really is zero evidence of strategic thinking from Keith.

  So I usually cut most Racers especially some slack and some Survivors.  But Jeremy's idol play gets no slack from me.  That was terrible for him.  Not that he can't come up with a new Plan B to make it all the way.  But having to do that when he had a clear and seemingly easy path to the finals is like shooting himself in the foot a mile before the end of the marathon.

 

 

Well considering what Jeremy suffered last time -- voted out by his own alliance -- it's no wonder that Jeremy has trust issues.

[Oscirus]

I have to say, this is probably one of the better played seasons of survivor that I've seen. Ciera finally gets everybody to listens to her and even manages to blindside Stephen but then that pesky Jeremy comes along, reads the room and idols her out. Then Stephen, well that was just sloppy on his part but good move on Spencer's part using Joe's immunity loss to blindside Stephen again.

Tasha- Damn girl, you've been blindsided three times in a row. Get your head in the game.

KImmi- Poor Kimmi on the outside looking in. Never a serious finalist, just along for the ride till it's time to leave.

Abi- Hi Abi, nice to see you back. What I said to Kimmi applies to you as well.

Kelley-Ok I'm all for looking for idols and stuff but when they're falling in people's laps like that, that is just ridiculous. That being said, good idol get. That was probably the hardest one yet.

Ciera- If you would have survived that vote you probably would've won it all me thinks.

Joe- Please let this dude go soon. His non existent gameplay is bugging me.

Stephen- Congrats on being the last finalist standing. That being said, I'm surprised Jeremy didn't get a broken back from dragging your dumbass.

Keith- Most useless person left out there.

Spencer- Nice way of forcing your way into the Jeremy Tasha duo.

Jeremy- Well played in that first tribal. Also, I have no idea how you weren't even the second option the second time around, but way to go.

[Kromm]

I'll take the controversial position that as much as I enjoyed seeing Stephen get his (and glad we no longer have to put up with his pathetic ass on screen), that nevertheless, his "advantage" wasn't scarier than Joe's inherent immunity winning power.  The only person who should be voting with Joe at that point is someone who's deluded themselves that they can beat Joe in a final tribal (perhaps relying on some argument that Joe has no strategic game and the show shouldn't be won simply on Immunity challenges).  Even the fact that Stephen had some implied voting block of 3 people (if they assumed Tasha was immovable), shouldn't have trumped the fact that Joe with even ONE other steadfast ally is probably just as scary.

 

Abi is such a paranoid nutcase it DOES make this entertaining though. Lord, I wonder how people can stand to even be near her, much less play with her.

I will say, I hope Stephen's friends in the Podcasting/online world don't go easy on him. As hard as someone like Abi made playing the game, Stephen was SO predictably pathetic in every way possible, he'd better not declare himself any kind of "know it all" or Survivor expert ever again.

[KimberStormer]

Alas that I can't stay.  That was two hours of great, great Survivor.  A couple thoughts:  I can only imagine what dancing and cheering there is re: Ciera, but the plain fact is, she did it again, she is amazing.  No shame in going out to an idol when you're totally on the bottom and have somehow flipped it again (so there is no way to split the vote or whatever).  And then proof yet again that keeping a chaos force like Abi in the game is a bad, bad, bad idea.

 

I have to say, I do not share the feeling that I've often heard, that they should suffer more, "like the old days".  It just bums me out when they're that miserable.  The survival stuff is just scenery to me, I'd prefer if they are mildly uncomfortable, have a tough night or two, but basically they are fine.  Just a matter of taste.

[Oscirus]

The more miserable they are, the less strategizing they do and the more boring the game is. No thank you.  As soon as the conditions improved, the game started to pick up.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Oscirus

[LadyChatts]

Alas that I can't stay.  That was two hours of great, great Survivor.  A couple thoughts:  I can only imagine what dancing and cheering there is re: Ciera, but the plain fact is, she did it again, she is amazing.  No shame in going out to an idol when you're totally on the bottom and have somehow flipped it again (so there is no way to split the vote or whatever).  And then proof yet again that keeping a chaos force like Abi in the game is a bad, bad, bad idea.

 

I have to say, I do not share the feeling that I've often heard, that they should suffer more, "like the old days".  It just bums me out when they're that miserable.  The survival stuff is just scenery to me, I'd prefer if they are mildly uncomfortable, have a tough night or two, but basically they are fine.  Just a matter of taste.

 

My thing is, I don't want them to suffer or be miserable and not do anything as a result.  I remember in Thailand, they filmed during the rainy season, and the one tribe (I believe it was Sook Jai) sat around their beach and whined about food, some of which had washed up on shore.  One of the girls got so annoyed with their whining and the fact they were talking about possible nutrition that was feet away from them but they wouldn't move, that she got up, went over and picked up a fish and threw it back at them.  However, they make it too easy for them.  I know some will say that they still had to sacrifice immunity for a better shelter.  But they had people come in and build it for them.  As has been suggested, why not give them better supplies in the beginning and make them do it themselves?  Or in this case, sacrifice immunity for supplies where they can repair their shelter themselves.  It's more the fact that rewards are mirroring all you can eat buffets and patio displays at Lowes.  At least don't give them hand outs.  

[azshadowwalker]

Kelley Wentworth and Jeremy are easily the best players left in the game. Stephen really out-smarted himself at every turn in the game. He deserved to get voted out, and I hope he got some medical care at Ponderosa, because he looked terrible.

Despite getting voted out, I think Ciera played a decent game. If Tasha and Spencer hadn't stupidly tried to include Jeremy in the plan, Stephen goes home and Ciera is still there for another three days. Tasha and Spencer are nearly as blind as Stephen was about him.

 

Wentworth and Ciera are damn lucky that there were so many idols in the game. Without idols, they're both long gone. I don't consider having idols to be "good play", whether it's Russell Hantz playing them or Kelley Wentworth. It's especially lucky for Ciera, who didn't even have to find the damned things. She would have been gone weeks ago without Kelley's help and idol play.

[loki567]

Wentworth and Ciera are damn lucky that there were so many idols in the game. Without idols, they're both long gone. I don't consider having idols to be "good play", whether it's Russell Hantz playing them or Kelley Wentworth. It's especially lucky for Ciera, who didn't even have to find the damned things. She would have been gone weeks ago without Kelley's help and idol play.

 

Uh, Ciera was just taken out by an idol. So "Ciera's lucky there were so many idols in the game!" doesn't really fit...

[pennben]

Okay, Shirin can annoy me, but this tweet from her tonight made me laugh out loud!  It's about what Jeff needed for them to get the "million dollar shelter' (great line by Abi there, by the way):

 

 

"I'm looking for five whites." Good news: you don't have to look far. #survivor

[SlackerInc]

Great double episode, or two great, and very tense, individual episodes.  This is clearly why the show has such a loyal fan base: it continues to surprise, and engage us in different permutations, even with the same basic structure after 30 seasons.  The PTB have hopefully learned that doing multiple tribal shuffles early in the game makes for great television later, so I hope they will do lots of that in the future.

 

I think it's interesting that both of these episodes were gripping outings that could easily have stood on their own.  On a podcast, I heard speculation leading up to this that the first one would be some kind of boring/straightforward/obvious boot, and that they paired it with a subsequent one with more drama so as not to leave a weeklong bad taste.  For instance, Joe wins immunity and they just vote Abi out; or Joe loses immunity and everyone's like "duh, he's gone".  But that was completely off.

[kikaha]

 

I don’t really like the challenges where everyone has to beat each other up, it doesn’t seem fair to put people in a position where they could be seriously hurt.

 

The saving grace for this one is the water.  No one can move very fast, and when they fall the water cushions them. 

 

Survivor did a somewhat similar challenge at the very start of HvV -- only it was on the beach.  IIRC Rupert broke his toe and Stephenie separated a shoulder.  I disliked that challenge -- too dangerous -- but thought the one they did this season was much better.   

[SlackerInc]

Million dollar rock indeed.  I suppose most of them thought they couldn't win the challenge anyway, and that it was a good chance to pretend to be sacrificing their own immunity for the greater good.  But Joe was right - if he'd shown a white rock, he'd be going home.  No two ways about it.    

 

 

I don't blame Joe for picking the black rock. If he hadn't won immunity he would have gone home for sure.

 

The above two comments are representative of a large majority, it seems, but I don't get this.  As Zuleikha noted, in the next vote he didn't have immunity and didn't go home even with his vote stolen and used against him.  So why is everyone so sure he would have gone home that time?

 

I have to say, I do not share the feeling that I've often heard, that they should suffer more, "like the old days".  It just bums me out when they're that miserable.  The survival stuff is just scenery to me, I'd prefer if they are mildly uncomfortable, have a tough night or two, but basically they are fine.  Just a matter of taste.

 

I share your taste on this.  I don't think it's cool when people's skin is getting so messed up that they are likely to have permanent scars or other damage.  When it gets so grueling, it comes uncomfortably close, IMO, to the sadistic dance marathons portrayed in the classic Jane Fonda film They Shoot Horses, Don't They?  You are taking advantage of people desperate to win a million dollars, leading them to subject their minds and bodies to a kind of torture, and most of them aren't even going to get the money.

 

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I'd be fine with the whole game essentially being conducted at the equivalent of Ponderosa, albeit with the same challenges and so on.  Maybe without the endless supply of food: just the basics, and they can supplement by fishing.

Edited November 26, 2015 by SlackerInc