S05.E09: The Bear King

[FormerMod-a1]

Well, gee, Merida has her validation and confidence now.  Yay.

[FormerMod-a1]

So Arthur can't lead at all on his own.  He needs a magic sword or a magic helmet.   God forbid he learn or something

[Tara Ariano]

I know it's a bit late to put the genie back in the bottle, but: there will be two separate editorial posts, so here's a second thread for the second hour.

 

Zelena and Arthur travel to DunBroch to obtain an ancient relic, and they cross paths with Merida, who's trying to repay a debt her father owed to the Witch.

[Curio]

Thank you, mods! It's honestly for the best, the other thread was pretty much 95% discussion about the first hour anyways.

[Delphi]

Okay, so I was under the impression that Red was still in Storybrooke just off sing her own thing. I thought they referenced her a few times, or did I just make that up in my head to explain get absence?

[InsertWordHere]

Aside from Snow (in a flashback) and Zelena, and Red who used to be a regular, did this episode feature any other cast members? I don't think we've ever had an episode without Emma, have we? 

Okay, so I was under the impression that Red was still in Storybrooke just off sing her own thing. I thought they referenced her a few times, or did I just make that up in my head to explain get absence?

Well, she was in Storybrooke up until the Season 3 finale. I can't remember any mentions of her in season 4, but that's my least watched season.

[Serena]

204 was without Emma (and Snow), I believe.

[Curio]

Aside from Snow (in a flashback) and Zelena, and Red who used to be a regular, did this episode feature any other cast members? I don't think we've ever had an episode without Emma, have we? 

 

"The Crocodile" might be the only other episode to not feature Emma. But I can't remember if she wasn't in it at all or just in it for like 2 seconds.

[Serena]

Emma and Snow weren't in 204 at all, and they were in 202 for 3 seconds (the scene at the very end where they're chained and following Mulan and Aurora).

[myril]

Now that we have a thread for The Bear King episode to discuss on its own, moving my commentary from the other thread here.

Once Upon a time... the story of crossover fan fiction turned into a (more or less successful) TV series. Or so. Paid little attention to the first episode of this Sunday eve unlike I guess the majority of viewers, was more interested in the Bear King, merely for Mulan and Red.

The Bear King could have been a nice story. As usually with this show there was potential in the ideas they had, but what they made of it was mostly only bearable if someone is capable of viewing every episode and character moment as isolated from the rest of things. Unfortunately the story line suffered the same fate as so many things on this show, lack of coherence and continuity. Characters are not allowed to evolve, they are driven by the writers "brilliant" twists and ideas. So Mulan turned heartbrocken into a cynic mercenary giving up on her believe in the code of honor pretty much out of the blue just because. Not saying a broken heart can't change people quite a lot, but it didn't make sense for Mulan, not without some more explanation. I mean, I can get there, code of honor getting in the way of just a chance on happiness, the Merry Men turning out to be just some gang of bigmouthed thugs using honor as smoke screen to justify everything, seeing that the honorable nobility with their wicked true luuv dramas does so much harm to innocent people, but still, it takes some work and guessing.

 

(Was anyone actually missing Ruby or Mulan?)

I did miss them, always liked these characters. And there were some calls over the past 2 seasons wondering what happened to them. For me these two were half of the reasons why I still am hanging around, curious what they would do with them now. No high expectations, luckily not.

 

 

* Another magic bean? How many jokes can we crack about the ongoing taxi service between realms?

 

Another magic bean magically contrived, uhm conjured to magically shut up pesky geeks looking for boring story details and elaborate world building. The subtle message to the geeky fans: Chill, people, have some chili beans and enjoy the crazy ride. Or in other words: Stop making sense of things that never were meant to make sense and no one should care about.

 

 

The people in this world have absolutely zero resilience when it comes to romance. No, Mulan, you didn't lose the person you love because you waited until it was too late to say anything. You never had a chance because she was already engaged to someone who was her verified True Love via a curse-breaking kiss before you met her. You were friends with her True Love, who was on a desperate quest to find and save her, before you met her, so saying anything would have been a jerk move.

 

Like never growing up teenagers: Every crush is life changing and never ending drama. But disagree with it being a jerk move, it would have been honest.

The problem is though less Mulan, it's the writing for her. Can't make sense of inner character reasoning if the writers have little patience for character development. There is just so much one can fanwank.

 

No.  Mulan and Red made eye contact a few times, and Red landed on Mulan when she was dewolfed, but there was nothing that couldn't be completely platonic.  If this was the big girl/girl romance, it was decidedly nonromancey.  They decided to go on a quest or something together at the end of the episode, but since both of them have done that before without romance being involved, that doesn't really mean anything.

 

There wasn't much subtext, let alone text.

 

The writing on this show doesn't show mastership of subtext, despite some oneliner sassines and occasional ambiguous meanings. The writing lacks a sense of subtlety and depth for that IMO. Whatever subtext showed up on the show over the years happened more by accident, thanks to the actors mostly, not intentional by the writers, at least not for the first 2 seasons.

Agree, there was a bit of eye sex going on in this episode, the kind of thing easy to miss if not trained to pay attention to, trained by necessity due to lack of representation. The kind of thing making it way too easy to ignore if one chooses to ignore to be able to insist, that it was all about friendship and nothing but. It's so eerie and like from a different century to look at what this show is doing while you can find on Netflix a show like Sense8, or take just The Fosters on ABC family. I see OUaT close to dark 50s TV prudery - which could be fun if played out as hilarious retro mockery, but that is not this show, think they're just that prude or maybe angsty about viewer reactions. Somehow it's never as repelling to some to show some blood, violence and questionable ethics than it is to show gay or lesbian love.

 

This. I thought maybe Mulan and Red were going to already be together or something. A&E promised to explore an LGBT relationship without actually exploring it. Not that I was necessarily expecting them to kiss passionately, but like you said... there was absolutely nothing.

 

Maybe that is what they meant, exploring it without exploring it?

If I am not mistaken, they never said it would be Mulan with someone, that was media and fan assumption so far, but fan theory with good reasons. But it is possible Mulan and Red might not be it.

It's frustrating and rather obstructive particular in this matter, that A&E keep playing their usual, "psssst.... we have a surprise" card. They should be frank about it. This goes beyond teasing and keeping things interesting by keeping people guessing, it becomes destructive and means feeding trolls and frustration in the fandom even more. Won't silence some folks, think even it shouldn't, but please, let's now stop this obnoxious guessing game, they behave like it's just some kindergarten trivia.

At least they avoided the Sweeps Week Lesbian Kiss trope. Congratulations.

 

Also, the gay story between Red and Mulan is only starting, A&E confirmed them for 5B already

.

Did they? And do we have a beginning romance between Mulan and Red?

This episode left things so wide open they could drop and forget it all along again, which would be no surprise at all, given the attention deficit the show has anyway.

Sorry for being a pessimist, but this was was more frustrating than awarding any stamina rooting in faint hope. It's due time for this show to at least go boldly where other shows have boldly gone a long long time ago and not dance around it like some Rumplestiltskin. As there is (magical) power in names there is power in making something clearly visible.

 

  

Thank you for reminding me of the ship name "Mulan Rouge;" I was wasting my time referring to it as "Red Warrior" when clearly the other is superior.

Disagree with it being superior. Because of sounding so close to Moulin Rouge it makes me think of can-can dance and of sexualization of women for entertainment (claimed occasionally to mix with art) and of prostitution. Might fit this show, might fit as well a show going for on male gaze based state of excitement of watching two women interact sexually. I don't think of Moulin Rouge as scandalous but neither do I romanticize the show business it was. But okay, that might all just be my warped sensitivities. Use what you like.

I will stick to Red Warrior, or maybe Wolf Warrior. Not great, but IMO still better. Or look for something different, Ruby Sword, Red Flower, Red Magnolia, Ruby Magnolia ... At least Red Warrior makes me think among other things of Hans Zimmer's soundtrack for Last Samurai and more importantly the Nightwish song "Dark Chest of Wonders", prefer that in this case over Can-Can-Dance.

Okay, guess I better go now wolfing out ;-

[Rumsy4]

I thought Mulan and Merida had more chemistry than Mulan and Red. But that doesn't mean it won't happen in the future. 

[iMonrey]

 I was kind of under the impression that the reason we were getting a 2-hour episode was that it was going to be the mid-season finale (I didn't realize there was another episode in 2 weeks). So imagine my shock when the entire second hour was devoted to a newly introduced character nobody gives a flying crap about. Even if the show runners believe Merida is a compelling character the audience will fall in love with, what on earth are they thinking by leaving us on such a riveting cliff-hanger then shelving the entire main storyline for a one-off about minor supporting characters? This is the second time they've done this within the past month. They are killing the momentum and doing a lousy job integrating Merida into the main story.

 

Even Arthur and the whole Camelot storyline has turned out to be a drag on the show and annoying. I find myself irritated whenever there's a scene with Arthur and Zelena. They've proven to be too superfluous to the main story about Emma becoming The Dark One. I just think the writing on this show is suffering from fatigue. It's become overly mired in its gimmicks, and even when they finally come up with an interesting idea they still act like they have to rely on a formula that's gotten stale over five years.

 

I was so annoyed with this one I kept expecting them to get back to Emma and Hook and they never did, so by the time it was over I just thought "Well I want that hour back." I can't believe I wasted my time on it. And maybe that's why it was paired with the first hour. Maybe they knew how weak it was and that nobody would sit through it as a stand alone.

[Primetimer]

Part 2 of last night's double episode event is a really great use of everyone's time.

Read the story

[MedievalGirl]

Typical that the thing that bothered me the most about this episode was a big epic battle with no shields. I know it was so that we wouldn't see the Camelot heraldry but it looked awkward. Arthur's jousting helmet was silly too. Those things have terrible sight lines for foot combat.

 

Okay, the abrupt change in focus after the big reveal and the lack of main characters bothered me too. The mom wasn't well cast and where were the pesky brothers? I did like the fairy tale mash-up-ness of it and the connection Merida had with her father. Mulan joyfully training Merida was fun to see as was Red. I missed her! Part of my delight at the viewing the end of The Bear King was imagining how one friend will squee with delight over Mulan and Red running off to have adventures. I really hope we get to see some of that in 5B.

 

[myril]

I was so annoyed with this one I kept expecting them to get back to Emma and Hook and they never did, so by the time it was over I just thought "Well I want that hour back." I can't believe I wasted my time on it. And maybe that's why it was paired with the first hour. Maybe they knew how weak it was and that nobody would sit through it as a stand alone.

Think even these writers would have written the episode differently as stand alone. I disagree, the episode was not weak per se, the writing was average OUaT level of okay. I see the problem more in the lack of connection to the rest of the show and this season and what likely most still watching are interested in. Anyone interested in the core lore, in Dark Emma, Captain Swan, RumBelle or Regina and her adjuncts must have been rather been bored by it. While the episode on the other hand was too isolated and not good with continuity to get back viewers or keep them interested in the show, who always had a liking for these supporting characters from season 1 and season 2. And if it was meant to set up a love story like any other love story on OUaT for Mulan and Red, then it failed with that as well, I think. Still not sure if there is a romance meant to be between them or not. 

[Shanna Marie]

It's not just this show that does this, but I'm so tired of the "training a person to be a great warrior on the eve of battle" trope. There's a reason boot camp takes weeks. You can't really develop physical skills overnight. They have to be trained to build both the necessary muscles and the muscle memory to make it all so second nature that even in a stressful situation where you can't think straight, your body knows enough of what to do to function on autopilot. The more physical the fighting is, like with swords, the more training it takes. If Fergus wanted Merida to be able to fight, he should have brought in Mulan weeks before they had to go to war. Bringing the war tutor to the battlefield would do no good. Galavant may be a parody, but they got this bit right when they had Galavant going through the training montage the day before the tournament, with the result that he was too sore from all the training to be able to move for the actual tournament.

 

So far, we've spent two entire episodes in this arc on Merdia learning that she's capable of being a ruler, when odds are that after this arc we'll never see her again.

[Delphi]

This episode really should have been switched with the other one. Or adore this one last night and give us a two part mid season finale. Because I liked this episode buy it was so. ..disjointed.

Shanna Maria, I don't believe Fergus planned for Merida to be in the battle at all. That's why he had Mulan there to be her bodyguard and to have her distracted when the battle actually began.

[Curio]

the episode was not weak per se, the writing was average OUaT level of okay. I see the problem more in the lack of connection to the rest of the show and this season and what likely most still watching are interested in.

 

I agree that the episode in and of itself wasn't necessarily bad, but pairing it with the far superior first hour (if you're into the main plot and cast) was a huge mistake. If this Merida/Red/Mulan adventure was a random episode that was played some time during the summer or winter hiatus as an extra goodie for the audience to keep us interested during the break, then it probably would have been received positively. But throw it into the huge climax of the Dark Swan arc? No. Just...no.

[Rumsy4]

I agree the placement was horrible, but the complete lack of any main characters might have made this episode worse as a standalone. They should have aired this episode last week, and had "Nimue" and "Birth" for the double episode. However I suppose some viewers would have assumed that was the mid-season finale like it happened last year. No one would think The Bear King as the mid-season finale. :-p 

Edited November 16, 2015 by Rumsy4

[kili]

If Fergus wanted Merida to be able to fight, he should have brought in Mulan weeks before they had to go to war.

 

Fergus did not want Merida to fight. That's why he had Mulan take her away from the battle in the early morning. Merida figured it out and ran back. He was probaly just using this battle as Battle 101 - Learn How Horrible War Is. She'd get to see the prep, start her training and see the aftermath. Not all fun and games and writing letters home to the loved ones.

 

So Arthur can't lead at all on his own.  He needs a magic sword or a magic helmet.

 

Arthur can lead all on his own. He doesn't use excalibur in battle because it is broken and he clearly led a successful raid on Merida's country. He killed the King himself.

 

Arthur's problem is that he keeps thinking he needs magic to fix things when he really can do a lot on his own. He needs to visit the Wizard of Oz to learn that he's always had it inside of him.

 

As this goes on, I continue to be mystified as to what Merlin had planned for him and why Merlin never tells anybody anything he knows. He was happy to let Vartogan slaughter villages and would not lift a finger to imprison him. He was happy to Merlin to grow increasingly crazed with the stupid half clues that he left him. He was happy to give childhood Emma a stupid out-of-context suggestion instead of giving her some words of hope. He was happy to send his appretnice to further screw up Ingrid and Lily.  And he was happy to let Hook and Emma go dark without giving them a hint about what was going to happen. And he is happy to leave useless voice-mailes.

 

I think he's related to the witch in this episode, but at least she wraps up her cryptic clues and schemes rather quickly. I wouldn't take a thing from that women after the bear trick. And is she supposed to be a good guy when she imprisons Red? Thanks for your lesson of the day, you crappy old witch. Maybe next time you can teach Merida to stop trying to get revenge and have it last. I suppose Merida getting revenge will be a good thing while it is oh so evil for everybody else.

 

The time switches in this episode gave me whiplash especially when most of the characters were dressed the same or nearly the same. The only thing that seemed to change is Merida's wig.

[Actionmage]

and he clearly led a successful raid on Merida's country. He killed the King himself.

 

If killing King Fergus meant the raid/invasion ws successful, that seems a very narrow definition of success to me.

 

Arthur was looking for the magic helm. He took the one off of King Fergus, but [entitled whine] "It didn't work!" So Arthur was unsuccessful at his main objective: steal the magic helm.

 

If Arthur was indeed raiding, or invading as Fergus read the situation, then again, it was a failure because all episode Merida fights were with her own clansmen and the Witch. (And her self-doubts, but anyway.) Merida and the clans didn't have to retake any land. They didn't have to run Arthur out of their country,as someone who had taken DunBrough for Camelot. So Arthur killed a King for naught. He made an enemy of a neighboring kingdom and incited the new ruler to pay him back for that death.  

 

That the Witch made a magic item that could so easily be misused, if not out-and-out evil, leaves me scratching my head. If the Witch was relatively benign in the movie , except for her bear-fetish and need to test Merida's family, then why make a functioning helm that could do so much harm in the wrong folks' hands? That is playing with fire, as it were. If the Witch knew that Fergus just needed to come to his senses and trust in his personal power to lead, then why not make a placebo helm that twinkled or glowed or whatever and let King Fergus think he was bolstered by the magic? Simple enough.

 

Side note: I thought the Witch's hair/wig was fabulous in that off, witchy way witches can have when they aren't glamazons.

 

To echo other folks: where were Merida's brothers? Suitor McHunkand his two buddies would not be the only male trio to watch over their new sovereign-to-be! I also doubt the Queen would be able to or want to stop them either.

[kili]

Arthur was looking for the magic helm. He took the one off of King Fergus, but [entitled whine] "It didn't work!" So Arthur was unsuccessful at his main objective: steal the magic helm.

 

His objective was to get the magic helm and there was no magic helm to be gotten. At least he didn't end up dead like Fergus. In many wars a war you can walk away from his a success. And apparently, Merida had no clue who had killed her Dad so he didn't even start an inter-kingdom war until he went back for seconds.

 

Suffice to say is that he led his men into battle. The helm is to get people to follow you into battle and he did that. His troops fought well despite having to face bagpipes. Besides, he has magic roofie sand that gets people on his side.

 

The entire helm thing is a continuity flaw within the episode. Fergus heads out to the witch to get something to inspire his men against an overwhelming force headed their way. The witch gives him the helm and he goes into battle and is killed. But, the only reason the overwhelming force was headed their way was because Arthur wanted the helm which didn't even exist when he started heading to battle Merdia's kingdom.

 

And since this all happened two years ago, what have the clans been doing for a leader all this time? The leaders of the other clans only recently kidnapped Merida's brothers and that was resolved a few hours ago (now they are completely devoted to her).  Were they fighting for the last two years? It should have been two months ago, not two years.

 

And how did Arthur not know that Merida had been broken out of his prison? Does that castle have no security at all? What is the timeline from the breakout to this one? We know that Merida and Belle spent 1 day futzing around and at least one day was spent looking for the helm (they finished just before their sun related deadline was up). Meanwhile, back at Grannie's, it seems like less than a day has passed as they started their raid for the sword, got trapped, escaped and started to reforge the sword.

[MedievalGirl]

Arthur said that he and his knights were questing for Excaliber when he encountered Fergus and the clans. There are plenty of continuity problems but that's not one of them. 

[kili]

Arthur said that he and his knights were questing for Excaliber when he encountered Fergus and the clans. There are plenty of continuity problems but that's not one of them.

 

How does Arthur know about the helm at all? Fergus got it one night before the battle and told nobody else about it. Did the witch tweet it out to all her followers?

 

Shouldn't it have been "Oh, look, a shiny helmet. How nice. Doesn't fit with outfit, so whatever". Why is he griping it doesn't work if he didn't know it should have worked? Why is he griping about needing a troop-inspiring-helm when he is already fully capable of inspiring his troops to quest?

 

What he is even questing for? He has had the sword already for like 40 years and after he sanded Gwen, he should know the Dark One has the dagger.

 

Is two years ago before they curse or does it fall after the curse? I'm thinking before curse since Mulan met Aurora shortly after the curse (like a day or two) and Mulan was still happy back then.

[Shanna Marie]

Fergus did not want Merida to fight. That's why he had Mulan take her away from the battle in the early morning. Merida figured it out and ran back. He was probaly just using this battle as Battle 101 - Learn How Horrible War Is. She'd get to see the prep, start her training and see the aftermath. Not all fun and games and writing letters home to the loved ones.

Good point. But then Merida's awfully naive if she fell for the idea that she could be fully trained for war with a good pep talk and some sparring the day before the battle.

 

Then again, this is the show that had David able to take on a warlord and all her flunkies after a quick swordfighting 101 session and a pep talk from Anna, so I'm not inclined to cut them a lot of slack in this area.

 

Something tells me these writers have never so much as touched a sword. Just about every muscle in my entire body was sore for the first two weeks of fencing classes, and that was just a foil, which isn't a lot of weight. Even with almost no weight, holding your arm like that isn't natural and uses different muscles than most people are used to, and learning to act as though your arm is suddenly three feet longer takes a lot of getting used to before the movement becomes second nature.

[snarkastic]

Arthur said that he and his knights were questing for Excaliber when he encountered Fergus and the clans. There are plenty of continuity problems but that's not one of them.

I don't remember exactly what Arthur said but he couldn't be questing 'for Excalibur'. He would have had the sword 3 years earlier. Now questing for the dagger...

[YaddaYadda]

On a whole other note, they confirmed that Philip was with his family in Storybrooke since Ruby saw him there.

[myril]

I don't remember exactly what Arthur said but he couldn't be questing 'for Excalibur'. He would have had the sword 3 years earlier. Now questing for the dagger...

 

He said he was with his knights looking for "the missing piece of Excalibur" and he had heard the land had magic, so he came hoping to find there what he was looking for. The rest is rather the usual mess OUaT does with their magical gadgets and their place in the stories. They seldom seem to think things through. 

Edited November 16, 2015 by myril

[Mari]

Is two years ago before they curse or does it fall after the curse? I'm thinking before curse since Mulan met Aurora shortly after the curse (like a day or two) and Mulan was still happy back then.

The problem with the "Two Years Ago" stamp, is that the curse was broken more than two years ago.  Two years ago would be smack in the middle of the Team Princess adventures.  

 

They really should have been more accurate with the timeline, because timestamps that fall within the amount of time after the curse are not helpful, if they meant "two years before the curse."

[LaChavalina]

That whole scene between Ruby and Snow seemed a bit heavy-handed, no? "There's no one else here like me," "I need to find more of my own kind." In the same episode where we bring back the lone LGBT character? Makes you wonder if finding a werewolf is really the endgame here.

[Camera One]

I'm so glad we got a separate thread for this.  I didn't get a chance to talk about this episode last night.

 

They had to make this episode filler in every possible way, didn't they?  Arthur and Zelena essentially accomplished nothing, and their entire quest made no sense anyway.  Arthur needed an army for what exactly?  As if he was any match against the Dark One flanked by Regina and Merlin.   I was still annoyed his ass wasn't in a dungeon yet.

 

But good thing, I was immediate distracted by Merida's older sister Pocahontas.  I had a few incredulous moments of "Who the hell is she supposed to be?"  They usually do such an awesome job of casting on this show, but this one was really off the mark.  

 

This entire episode, I was wondering how Arthur would know about the Helmet when the Witch created it so recently.  During "The Bear King", I was trying to figure out how it would make any sense for the killer of King Fergus/stealer of the Magical Helmet to be Arthur, and it still makes no sense.

 

I actually liked Merida more in this episode, than all the previous episodes before this.  She did have decent chemistry with her father.  But boy, is anyone more feeble-minded and lacking in self-esteem?  I rolled my eyes halfway to Neverland with her wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I can't do this!!!!!!!!!  Anyone would be a better leader than meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.   Didn't we go through this once already with Cheerleader Belle?  This whole insta-respect thing from the other clans isn't getting any more believable, A&E.  

 

It was nice seeing Mulan again, though I'm confused about the timeline since she seemed super happy and completely not like the uptight and reserved version we saw in Season 2 or 3.  I don't understand her insta-reversal to wanting to help Merida and realizing she had been a "bad example".  I also enjoyed seeing Red, though not in this context.  I don't buy she wanted to find her pack, and the retcon that she went back to the EF but no one mentioned it was lame.  That could have been a way to incorporate some everyday life stuff with some Storybrookers wanting to go back home.  I suppose Ginnifer Goodwin should thank Megan Ory for getting the longest kitchen sink/bathroom hallway conversation she has gotten in ages.

 

Mulan got the clunkiest line of all though after Merida found out about the helmet in the lake... "And you know what that means?"

 

Why was Zelena standing around listening to Merida's sob story to Arthur?  She could have apparated over, grabbed the helmet and she and Arthur would have been out of there stat.  After she was drugged, she was able to apparate herself and Arthur away, but she couldn't apparate a few feet over, steal the Helmet and then apparate away?  Zelena was so overpowered that I couldn't believe that Red, Merida and Mulan would be any sort of chance against.  

Edited November 17, 2015 by Camera One

[kingshearte]

That the Witch made a magic item that could so easily be misused, if not out-and-out evil, leaves me scratching my head. If the Witch was relatively benign in the movie , except for her bear-fetish and need to test Merida's family, then why make a functioning helm that could do so much harm in the wrong folks' hands? That is playing with fire, as it were. If the Witch knew that Fergus just needed to come to his senses and trust in his personal power to lead, then why not make a placebo helm that twinkled or glowed or whatever and let King Fergus think he was bolstered by the magic? Simple enough.

Do we know for certain that the thing was not in fact a placebo? We never actually saw it do anything. The witch told Fergus it was magic, Arthur believed it was magic, Merida believed it was magic, etc., but I don't recall any confirmation that it actually was magic and not just a big ole test for Merida.

 

Good point. But then Merida's awfully naive if she fell for the idea that she could be fully trained for war with a good pep talk and some sparring the day before the battle.

I don't think we're meant to believe she never picked up a sword before. If anything, I think it's more likely that she thought she was already pretty good — albeit better with a bow — but Fergus knew she wasn't so good as to be battle ready. If things had gone according to Fergus's plan, she wouldn't have even known she was being protected, and would have gained some more skill in the process.

 

Overall, my feelings about this episode are somewhat mixed. I rather liked Brave and Merida, I like Mulan OK, and I like Red, so from those perspectives, I didn't find this a completely unpleasant experience. But it had absolutely nothing to do with the main plot (even Arthur and Zelena didn't actually accomplish anything relevant), and given where we just left the main plot? Arg. So I guess what it boils down to is that as long as I don't think of it as an episode of OUAT, but rather as some sort of direct-to-video Brave movie or whatever, then I guess I liked it OK.

[KAOS Agent]

I don't buy she wanted to find her pack, and the retcon that she went back to the EF but no one mentioned it was lame.  That could have been a way to incorporate some everyday life stuff with some Storybrookers wanting to go back home.

 

The minute Ruby showed Snow that bean I was sincerely hoping that some sort of city wide bulletin went out to all Storybrookers offering them a way home should they choose to go. If Tiny & Ruby made only one bean and then used it exclusively for themselves, they suck. A lot.

 

I guess what it boils down to is that as long as I don't think of it as an episode of OUAT, but rather as some sort of direct-to-video Brave movie or whatever, then I guess I liked it OK.

 

I was kind of looking at this episode like it was a pilot for the spinoff of Once Upon a Time: The Adventures of Mulan & Red Riding Hood. I know it was a last minute order and it was filmed at the same time as "Birth" so they didn't have the main cast available to film, but this really needed to be placed elsewhere in their episode order. Or maybe they could have shown the beginning of "Birth" where Zelena & Arthur poofed away and then shown this episode followed by the remaining stuff from "Birth".

Edited November 17, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Actionmage]

Do we know for certain that the thing was not in fact a placebo? We never actually saw it do anything.

 

kingshearte, I sincerely hope it was. I would have loved Arthur to have been thwarted a second time. Still, the Witch should have come clean in her confessional, ala Glinda, and said that she only made it look enchanted, to fool King Fergus. That she had faith that he'd snap out of his funk, or whatever Ye Olde Scots is for the same. I mean, what was she going to do if Zelena fought smarter not stronger? Go ahead and curse the clans? Whatever, Witch.

[KingOfHearts]

Did Elanor remind anyone else of Isabella from Galavant?

[Camera One]

The actress who played the mom is around 36.  She and the actress who plays Merida have a 6 year age difference.  Great casting, folks.  

[jhlipton]

So Arthur can't lead at all on his own.  He needs a magic sword or a magic helmet.   God forbid he learn or something

 

He also can't fight and has to stab his enemies in the back.  Good thing for him Merida was "one-and-done" with her arrows.  "Damn, missed that one.  Not worth trying again!"

 

I guess what it boils down to is that as long as I don't think of it as an episode of OUAT, but rather as some sort of direct-to-video Brave movie or whatever, then I guess I liked it OK.

Not me.  They've soiled the character of Merida and now they soilo King Fergus as someone who would even think to use magic to win a battle.  And you don't inspire troops by leading the charge (although that may not hurt), you inspire them by giving them something to fight and die for.

 

The minute Ruby showed Snow that bean I was sincerely hoping that some sort of city wide bulletin went out to all Storybrookers offering them a way home should they choose to go. If Tiny & Ruby made only one bean and then used it exclusively for themselves, they suck. A lot.

 

My thoughts exactly. 

 

This hour was a waste.

Arthur killed King Fergus.

 

Correction: Arthur murdered King Fergus.  He came up behind him and stabbed him in the back.  How very noble!

Edited November 17, 2015 by jhlipton

[kili]

Correction: Arthur murdered King Fergus.  He came up behind him and stabbed him in the back.  How very noble!

Arthur is not a murderer. King Fergus was an idiot that turned his back on an attacking army. You need to watch your back in battle because you better believe that somebody is going to take advantage of your inattention. If Arthur had popped out from behind a curtain in Fergus's bedroom and stabbed him in the back, that would be murder. What Arthur did is just good battle tactics.

 

Do you think a modern day soldier in the middle of a battle wouldn't shoot the enemy in the back while the enemy was actively engaged in shooting too? What do you think snipers do? That's kind of their whole job - shooting people who don't even know they are there. If Merida's arrow had hit Arthur, would she be the murderer since she had not gotten his attention before sending the arrow his way?

 

Sword battles like that were ugly business. There was no room for nobleness. It's kill or be killed. 

[myril]

kingshearte, I sincerely hope it was. I would have loved Arthur to have been thwarted a second time. Still, the Witch should have come clean in her confessional, ala Glinda, and said that she only made it look enchanted, to fool King Fergus. That she had faith that he'd snap out of his funk, or whatever Ye Olde Scots is for the same. I mean, what was she going to do if Zelena fought smarter not stronger? Go ahead and curse the clans? Whatever, Witch.

Think she did. The witch told Merida it was always about her, that she did, what Fergus had asked for, something to ensure the future of his kingdom. So I am rather sure the helmet had no real magic and was a placebo. The clans followed Fergus not because of the helmet but he managed to rally them behind him on his own, and even if he might have worn it for a bit, it at best increased his confidence through make-believe. Fergus threw the helmet in the lake, realizing he didn't need it. That is the difference to Arthur, who clings to crutches, obsessed with technology, aka magical gadgets and magic, to lead instead developing himself as a leader. So of course Arthur fails, constantly, he doesn't get it. It is a theme in OUaT, that magic is just a crutch, and if you rely too much on it, it destroy you and the people you love. Just that it seems, the writers themselves are falling at times for the curse of the magical gadget, or is it us as audience doing so?

[Daisy]

Again my question is this. 

 

How did Arthur know about the Helmet? Fergus goes into the woods and talk to Witchiepoo. Witchiepoo makes the Helm, and I don't think Fergus is going to be drunk and boast about it. Merlin's a tree, and we've yet to hear Arthur dabbling with other witches. And I doubt the witch is going to be all "HEY! I just sensed that someone made a Helmet that can convince people to fight for you! GO GET IT!"

 

....so why does he start a war, to get the helmet? 

why doesn't he just go to Witchiepoo and GET ANOTHER HELMET?! 

[Canada]

I thought this was the best episode of OUaT that I've seen in a really long time, which is kind of sad really.  I'm tired of the ongoing Dark Emma character and her stupid hairstyle.  I'm tired of the constant back and forth between worlds and periods of time; we're almost half-way through the season and I feel like there's been no movement in the storyline.  Even the 'shocking' reveal at the end of the first hour tonight did nothing for me.  It's all been so boring.  So, I loved this episode for being something new and for giving me a complete story to enjoy.  Shame the rest of the season, with the actual main characters, has been so dull.

[myril]

....so why does he start a war, to get the helmet? 

why doesn't he just go to Witchiepoo and GET ANOTHER HELMET?! 

 

Arthur didn't start a war to get the helmet, he came to the lands to look for magic, the missing piece of Excalibur or at least some help to make his big important sword shiny whole. He was obsessed with that and manipulated or magically brainwashed people into following him. Arthur was battling Ferguson anyway. Possible he heard while preparing for the battle the rumour, that Fergus got from a witch a helmet to help to fight him back, there is always someone around blabbing about things, some talkative storyteller. And of course Arthur then wanted to have that helmet for himself. Magical gadgets like that are usually unique, not to mention not giving you much of an advantage when Ferguson still would have had his.

 

 

I thought this was the best episode of OUaT that I've seen in a really long time, which is kind of sad really.  I'm tired of the ongoing Dark Emma character and her stupid hairstyle.  I'm tired of the constant back and forth between worlds and periods of time; we're almost half-way through the season and I feel like there's been no movement in the storyline.  Even the 'shocking' reveal at the end of the first hour tonight did nothing for me.  It's all been so boring.  So, I loved this episode for being something new and for giving me a complete story to enjoy.  Shame the rest of the season, with the actual main characters, has been so dull.

 

The plot had holes, there were continuity problems with Mulan and Red, but still I too enjoyed the episode for what it was, something different from the dark lore of dull soap jelly A plot.

Edited November 17, 2015 by myril

[coops]

I liked this episode. It had a good mix of unsual characters interacting which made the story seem fresh and exciting and of course it was great to see Red and Mulan again. There's just no way this episode should be shoved in where it was. This episode should have come before the one with the big cliffhanger.

[kili]

Arthur was battling Ferguson anyway. Possible he heard while preparing for the battle the rumour, that Fergus got from a witch a helmet to help to fight him back, there is always someone around blabbing about things, some talkative storyteller

 

Ferguson kept the helm a secret. He didn't even tell his daughter about it . Even two years later, Merida and her countrymen had no clue that there was ever a helm (until the witch - the only other person to know told them).

 

If you think about it, a magical inspiring helmet is probably something you would want to keep on the down-low. Who is going to follow you if they know that you think your odds of success and reasons for battling people are so weak, you have to use a magic helmet to force people into battle against their common sense? People would never even show up to the battle grounds.

 

If the witch was trying to teach Ferguson a lesson, why would she blab? That's probably only get to end up getting him killed.

 

Alghouth, I could buy Merlin telling Arthur that. If Merlin can be checking out movies while living in a tree, he can probably see what the witch was doing. Merlin probably some cryptic nonsense while withholding the truth and then pretend to be shocked about it afterwords. I guess it gets boring living in a tree, so Merlin decided it would be fun to toy with the orphan kid until he became insane. That's where all the darkness that came out of Merlin comes from.

Edited November 17, 2015 by kili

[KingOfHearts]

I didn't like the Snow/Red scene, tbh. It was riddled with plot holes and just felt wrong. It wasn't so much a heart-to-heart between friends as it was, "Well it was nice knowing you. Ta-ta for now!" Snow had zero qualms about Red leaving and it was very apparent she had moved on to Regina + whatever villain is masquerading as a nice person each week. All their friendship built up from S1/S2 concluded in a scene sandwiched between 3B and the cliffhanger to 4A. You know that right after this conversation, Regina is going to walk in and find Marian and it'll all be about her. No one mourns Red.

 

There's something about these short conversations in the bathroom hall at Granny's that irritate me...

Edited November 17, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Actionmage]

Arthur didn't start a war to get the helmet, he came to the lands to look for magic,

 

(I'm using this as a talking point, myril, not a direct reply to you. :) )

 

I play table-top rpgs, mostly fantasy-based. No matter the system, there usually is a low-level spell that imbues an object with an aura that reads as magic. I am sure that is for players to confuse bad guys and hide treasure from those who want to steal it from the players among other uses. There is also usually a Hide Magic Aura spell as well.

 

I think that is what kingshearte and others mean when talking about the helm. It is also why Zelena was able to find it and why it glowed for Zelena at the lake. When she magicked it out of the water, it glowed Zelena's characteristic green. If it was Regina, it might have been red or purple. The glow was the indicator that it read/was magic, in the episode.  It also had the added placebo double-deal with it actually being King Fergus' property, so the tracking spell would not give away that it was a placebo/ aura-spell until Arthur donned the helm anyway. 

 

 

Possible he heard while preparing for the battle the rumour,

 

 

That falls into the timeline questioning and logic holes that have been pointed out- King Fergus just went to the witch the night before, so the run-up to battle couldn't have rumors of the helm reach Arthur. Yet...

 

I could buy Merlin telling Arthur that.

 

From how Merlin's treated everyone, and how dogs and cats are living together this season, it wouldn't surprise me if this is how Arthur actually found out.

 

No one mourns Red.

 

No one spares a thought for Red, which is worse, especially since she's not dead. I will not be moved that Granny thinks of her throughout her day, but just keeps it quiet because she can only speak to Snow if she's "feeling" entitled to electricity or being grumptastic about something ( the Queens of Darkness). Whatever bond Snow and Red had in the Enchanted Forest hasn't just faded, but has totally forgotten- until they need Red. (/bitterness over Granny and Red's treatment)

[Daisy]

Arthur didn't start a war to get the helmet, he came to the lands to look for magic, the missing piece of Excalibur or at least some help to make his big important sword shiny whole. He was obsessed with that and manipulated or magically brainwashed people into following him. Arthur was battling Ferguson anyway. Possible he heard while preparing for the battle the rumour, that Fergus got from a witch a helmet to help to fight him back, there is always someone around blabbing about things, some talkative storyteller. And of course Arthur then wanted to have that helmet for himself. Magical gadgets like that are usually unique, not to mention not giving you much of an advantage when Ferguson still would have had his.

 

 

 

The plot had holes, there were continuity problems with Mulan and Red, but still I too enjoyed the episode for what it was, something different from the dark lore of dull soap jelly A plot.

 

 

thanks so much :) i was tres confused. 

 

(hmm i wonder if that sand thing he used to make Camelot/MindRape Guwen has anything to do with that)

[KingOfHearts]

Wouldn't it have made more sense if Merida knew Arthur killed her father from the beginning? That line, "Any enemy of Arthur is a friend of mine" from 5x04 (?) sounded like there were more than just stolen boats involved. Seeking vengeance earlier would have given her a connection to the Camelot stuff much sooner. I feel like A&E held off on that for the big shocking reveal only. I knew it was Arthur from the beginning. I was halfway hoping, futilely really, that it would be someone else. 

Edited November 18, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[kili]

I knew it was Arthur from the beginning. I was halfway hoping, futilely really, that it would be someone else.

 

When they kept nattering on about how the invaders were from some Compass Point Location (North or South), I was desperately hoping that it was Hans and his brothers. All 12 of them could be menaces everywhere they go. Sure, two years ago they were probably still frozen, but when has continuity ever mattered?  Arthur could still come looking for this Helm he's heard of and try to find it before Merida. Heck, Arthur could be the missing 13th brother who was kidnapped by trolls as a child and sold to some traders who died in Camelot.

 

I think they were pouring it on a bit thick having Arthur kill Fergus in the back which we were meant to take as a slimey move. Arthur was once full of ideals and has just become increasingly desperate. Hans is always the sort of guy that would go around stabbing people in the back. He's kind of what Prince James would have become except for his untimely death (I'm still sad they used the Sherriff of Nottingham as Cora's blindadate for Regina - it should have been James. Come on, it would have been way more twisted and you know Cora would appreciate that he was a Prince). Hans could be the Princely Blackbeard.

[Camera One]

I didn't like the Snow/Red scene, tbh. It was riddled with plot holes and just felt wrong. It wasn't so much a heart-to-heart between friends as it was, "Well it was nice knowing you. Ta-ta for now!" 

 

That's because they would never have written this scene if they didn't have the need to explain what happened to Red.  This was a purely functional scene, for a very specific purpose, and that was NOT to build on their friendship.  To me at least, the actresses and their chemistry was the only thing that made the scene palatable.