The Blacksite: Where the Hunt for Red Begins

[Danielg342]

Figured we needed this thread, since several episode threads wind up going off tangent into general show discussion, of which we have no place to discuss it. Until now.

A bit of “legalese” if you will (which the mods can clarify if they'd like):

-This is for “general show discussion” only, which includes discussion on (but is not limited to):

--The writers and the writing of the show overall

--Specific arcs and long-term storylines the show is pursuing or has pursued

--Any general themes explored from episode to episode or season to season

--The show's “universe” and “mythology”

--Secondary characters (I.e. “non-main” characters and not any specific Blacklister)

--Gripes you have about the show as a whole and what they've done

--What kind of changes you'd make to the show

--What kind of storylines you'd like the show to pursue

-This thread is not for:

--Specific episode/Blacklister discussion

--Specific main character discussions

--Unmarked spoilers

--Speculation about the show's mysteries

Let the fun begin. :)

[norask]

Thanks for the thread.

[norask]

I think you hit the nail on the head. They may have picked a young relatively unexperienced actress, but what exactly are the writers' credentials? A check on IMDB doesn't exactly show anything even remotely oh wow never mind Emmy winning. *growl*

 

Exactly. They are certainly not in the same group as  David Chase, Vince Gilligan or Jonathon Nolan or David Simon(off the top of my head). They are a bunch of middling talents who got lucky with James Spader. Apparently Spaders rewrites a lot of his stuff and so of course he is good. The other actors aren't allowed to do that and hence we have 2-dimentional cliches just walking around acting as part of the scenery.

[Drusilla]

Exactly. They are certainly not in the same group as  David Chase, Vince Gilligan or Jonathon Nolan or David Simon(off the top of my head). They are a bunch of middling talents who got lucky with James Spader. Apparently Spaders rewrites a lot of his stuff and so of course he is good. The other actors aren't allowed to do that and hence we have 2-dimentional cliches just walking around acting as part of the scenery.

 

It all collapses if Liz goes, because there is no reason then for Reddington to hang around, so you would think that they would do something with the character that doesn't make her alternately Drippy Crying Lizzie/Gun Toting Bonnie Parker. An actor can improve tremendously with the right direction, support and of course, scripting. NBC has shown a distinct lack of interest in the show's actors this season, gone are all those appearances on the Today Show etc and I just wonder how long Spader's ego can be bothered with this. Anyone know the current ratings?

[Danielg342]

I think one of the central problems with the direction of this show is that after the Pilot, the show decided they wanted to do some sort of “Doctor Who/Companion” kind of relationship between Red and Liz.

Which, in principle isn't a bad idea. Problem is, all the writing staff have done with it is allow Red to mouth all kinds of grandiose statements and recite all kinds of exposition while Liz just sits there and goes “ooh” and “ah”. We get no insights into what Lizzie feels or thinks about all this, and that's what ultimately drags down the character.

Granted, we don't get insights into Red's mind or Cooper's or Ressler's or anyone else on this show for that matter, but those characters still get something to do. In Red's case, he's the one who “knows everything”, and what he thinks is immaterial. Sure, it might be nice for Red to have a few moments of reflection, but it won't hurt him if he doesn't have them- he's the one who “paints” this world, so his function isn't to reflect on it but to describe it. He's there to navigate Lizzie and the rest of the crew through an unknown world, so he needs to be “in charge” and mentor-like, which doesn't leave much room for thought and reflection.

Lizzie, on the other hand, should be the one who thinks and reflects and wonders just what kind of world she's gotten herself into. She's learning about all this for the first time, so hearing her thoughts is vital to her character, since, almost essentially, through her character we start to understand the world that Red is painting. Her reflecting on things gives her plenty to do and is a veritable gold mine of material.

Of course, for that to work, Lizzie would have to be the central character and everyone else would have to be defined by their relationship to her. Which wouldn't have been hard to do:

-Red would be her “father figure/criminal underworld navigator” that helps her understand the criminals she's trying to catch. He'd be there primarily to balance Cooper's and Tom's influence on her.

-Ressler would be the “big brother who has her back”.

-Cooper would be Red's and Tom's contrarian who's there to remind Lizzie she's a law-woman and thus she needs to stick to the law.

-Tom would be the one who is actively trying to drag Lizzie into the “dark side” and actually embrace her criminal sensibilities instead of trying to counteract them.

Unfortunately, it would likely mean that James Spader wouldn't get the spotlight, since Red becomes a “support” player in this narrative. Which is why I think the show should go back to “tough Lizzie” from the Pilot and give Red some moments of reflection- after all, he too probably has no idea how much of his world actually makes sense.

[Miral9]

My opinion has always been that it was a mistake to hire such a young actress to play Liz. If you read the pilot script - http://www.zen134237.zen.co.uk/The_Blacklist_1x01_-_Pilot.pdf- you seen Bokencamps original idea had Liz being 36, not 26. That's why so little of Pilot!Liz backstory makes sense contextually.

I wish they had just hired someone older -and a more experienced actress. Someone like Robin Tunney (The Mentalist). I believe Bokencamp's kernel of inspiration was Boston gangster fugitive Whitey Bulger and his girlfriend. Their age difference is the same as the Red/Liz age difference in the pilot.

Making Liz younger gave it the whole "is he/isn't he her father?" Intrigue but that's a flimsy gimmick to keep people tuning in (not to mention a little icky with the dream sequences).

[Miral9]

My sister's opinion is that the writers are trolling us.

[Julia]

Well, Jace Alexander was an EP in the first season, and Megan Boone claims his mom (Jane Alexander, who was one of her professors in theater school, and who was on the board of the theater company which counterintuitively offered Ms Boone a job) was the only person who supported her desire to be an actress while she was in theater school. Add on Megan's extremely wealthy family's established habit of donating money to influence outcomes, its a little hard for me to believe that she was hired because someone thought she was the best choice for any part.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Julia

[norask]

Well, Jace Alexander was an EP in the first season, and Megan Boone claims his mom (Jane Alexander, who was one of her professors in theater school, and who was on the board of the theater company which counterintuitively offered Ms Boone a job) was the only person who supported her desire to be an actress while she was in theater school. Add on Megan's extremely wealthy family's established habit of donating money to influence outcomes, its a little hard for me to believe that she was hired because someone thought she was the best choice for any part.

I get your point but will a studio let some rich kid affect a big show like this? I mean Boone isn't some 18 year old newcomer in Hollywood - she's over 30. She has been trying her luck for years before she finally hit it. So why didn't her family help her out before if this is what they do? I think the truth is somewhere in between. She was one of their picks and family made her the top pick.

 

But even if Boone is a no-talent hack, I still put most of the blame on the writers. They just can't write a female character believably without men doing everything for her. Look what just happened to Samar!

Edited November 13, 2015 by norask

[Danielg342]

I still haven't seen “Zal bin Hassan” (which also isn't an Iranian name), but as I understand from the comments, Samar is now caught in a love triangle? How's that for a groaner? So much for the show knowing that a woman has more worth than what's between her legs.

I also wonder how Mozhan Marno agreed to be in this show. Someone who won accolades for portraying Soraya Manutchehri surely can do better than a character who's no better than a cliche and “Mrs. Exposition”.

[norask]

Samar is now caught in a love triangle?

 

Not a love triangle, thankfully. More like comfort sex after a horrible day with the wrong person. But yes, even in the episode touted to be her big episode, the men around her do most of the stuff while she kisses ex-lover in the middle of terrorist-hostage situation.

[Danielg342]

Unfortunately, I kind of *need* Solomon to die, because I have had more than enough of him. I wanted him gone before the Alphas guy, which is saying something given he came in later. His treatment of Dembe alone "demands" it. Not looking forward to more of him in any form, except as a mutilated corpse. (Ok, that sounds harsh. Not directed at the actor, who probably is a charming person (based on nothing).) But the character also made less sense to me as a cabal member than CIA dude did.

I agree Tom and Lizzie were getting old, mostly because Lizzie is such an un-self-aware idiot and detracts from pretty much all things/ characters/ storylines she touches. Expect her spawn to do much the same. By contrast, all loathing there is actually directly aimed at the actress. Her SLs & the writing aren't helping matters for me, but most people on this show do so much more with less. And the rest who are actually given stuff to do really do great things with it. (Red is nothing *but* cheese and clichés, yet Spader makes it an art form and absolute joy. And to this day I remain impressed that they were able to get me to enjoy Tom. He (both the character and actor, afaiac) really deserves a shot clear of all the Lizzie crap.) She really is a stand out here in the worst possible sense. As always imho, ymmv and probably does.

There were brief moments where Ressler was less of a tool, and the show almost set him up as an interesting alternative to Tom. Wish they could go back to that characterization of him, but I suspect the ONS with Samar ruined all that for good. They really don't seem to have the best handle on his character either.

I'll reply here, since it seems to fit this thread better.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on Matias Solomon. I think Edi Gathegi is a real joy to watch because you can see how much fun he's having with the role, so I enjoy seeing Solomon. The only real issue I have with Solomon is that the writing hasn't nearly been up to par as Gathegi is, and it's a real drag on the character. If only he had some nuance and character depth beyond being a one-dimensional "evulz" baddie, he really could be Red's equal on this show, if not one of TV's greater characters.

It's the same feeling I get with Tom. Ryan Eggold crushes it as an actor but the writing for his character is just poor. Tom seems to alternate between being a one-dimensional con man/vigilante and a puppy dog lover when it's clear Eggold can do so much more. I do hope, if there is a spinoff, that Tom's character gets some growth and some depth- and does more than Lizzie being a wide-eyed "questioner".