S05.E07: Nimue

[YaddaYadda]

Anyone else find it weird that they gave Nimue's village a name, and had some Greek letters right under it?

[Ikki]

I loved Zelena this episode. Hated what they've done to Snow, but I almost feel like Zelena's my favorite current character (in the "fun to watch" aspect).

 

But then there's the whole "raped Robin Hood and we're not going to address that" aspect that keeps me from fully enjoying her.

[orza]

Once again Snow being called Mary Margaret annoyed the crap out of me.  The only thing I can think of is that we're supposed to believe that Regina cast a secret new curse on Snow just before the shenanigans with Jefferson's hat in the 2A premiere, in which she loses part of her brain every time someone calls her Mary Margaret.  So, after 3+ seasons of this, she's now as dumb as a hat.  If they were to start calling her Snow again I'd imagine her brains would grow back.

There was a some exposition in season 2 that Snow wants to be called Mary Margaret now. She had no desire to go back to Fairytale land and wanted the small town life with cute house and the white picket fence. They showed her being unhappy about landing back in Fairytale land at the beginning of 3b. Mary Margaret of Storybrook, simple wife and mother, is who she wants to be now.

 

Snow has never been shown to be a person of great or even moderate intellect. Even in season 1 Snow was not too bright. She was a pampered princess who had to learn to live like the majority of her subjects when she was on the lam. That doesn't take a lot of smarts. She also had help with that. The whole Charming family has never been shown to more average in the intelligence department.

[mjgchick]

Didn't Snow wanted to go back to Enchanted Forest in S2b? Wasn't that why they were making the beans? And I can't call Bandit Snow not bright if she survived all those yrs on the lam after being a Princess for most of her life. Having others their to help you doesn't make you weak either. This current Snow on the other hand had her brains sucked out of since leaving Neverland If you ask me.

[maryle]

I didn t liked this episode I loved it !! Best episode since long time..

Merlin and Nimue were cute and l loved the obvious parallel to CS.

Pro ; Jen she deserved praise for this episode she play the emotional journey with subtility, that make Emma doubt about her power and own capacity to resist the power more realistic and human.

But I am still not sure about her real end goal in Storybook and I hope it is more than just make Hook immortal. Will see!

Zelena makes me smile, cannot help it!

Arthur totally is the real villain of this half!! And he is so going to use team heros to turn Emma Dark! The actor was really good in the scene with Merlin.

CS was adorable as ever!!

[orza]

One can be strong and determined without being particularly smart. They are not mutually exclusive. Weakness and lack of intelligence are two different things. Snow had never been very smart.

 

Some of the other people in Storybrook wanted to go back and magic beans are a very handy thing to have, so it is a good idea to plant them even if one has no immediate use for them. Apparently, they store well.

[october]

Though there were weaknesses in Merlin and Nimue's story (in terms of continuity, common sense, you know- the usual stuff this show struggles to handle) I enjoyed seeing them together. I think the actors gave good performances and I found Nimue genuinely intimidating.

 

I actually skipped Snow and Zelena's scene because I wanted to leave for work on time, and from the looks of things I'm glad I did.

 

Captain Swan continues to fill me with all the feelings.

 

What can I say about Emma? She was already in my top ten of favourite female characters on TV, but this cemented her standing. Seeing her stand up for her own self worth was incredible.

 

Looking forward to next week (well, for Birth anyway. Couldn't care less about Merida).

[myril]

Still a nonsensical mess with pretty costumes. Or should I say nonsensical "Holy" mess? Bringing in the Holy Grail and organized religion history of any sort was hugely disappointing and jarring to their whole fairy tale/happy ending theme.

They like shiny toys, be it characters or some magical gadget, don't they? ;-) It's kinda funny seeing that there are some prejudices about U.S. culture and especially entertainment saying it is superficial, shallow, rash, into things for the thrill, action crazy, fixed on materialistic values - and it sometimes sounds as if this show seems to aspire to become one of the new icons to prove such prejudices right. Occasionally I wonder though if it is not a huge troll attack on the whole Disney and hero fluff (including Marvel, star Wars), as such it could turn out as brilliant. A big joke on all middle-classy and suburban-romantically fairy tale interpretations since the 1940s, a witty revenge on Disney's imperium. Of course the show runners could never admit that while the show is running, or maybe even never. But when I watch the show that way I begin to enjoy it a bit again.

Playing around with all the religious motives as they are makes me only wonder, why no zealotic Christian group is already campaigning for banning the show from mainstream broadcast and asking for it to be locked up in the depth of a deep, deep vault far out of reach of any child and teenager. Savior, resurrection, evil and good, the last battle, battling the dragon(s), burning tree (instead of bush), the words of the prophets, chosen writers giving testament of events of the magical realms in books (good thing they didn't name Henry Matthew, Mark, Luke or John) the Holy grail now (to name just a few things coming right to my mind) - the show is full of it.

I found it rather an interesting idea to turn the grail into Excalibur. Although wish they wouldn't have done it with such boring CGI magic and used a blacksmith instead - not the least because Rumple's father had been sold to a blacksmith as kid and blacksmiths have been believed to have some connection with magic in mythology. They could have set up just another connection to the Greek olymp with it. But that are the moments when I notice the show lacks some deeper thirst for and fun with background stories and mythology. They go for the shiny toy for it being shiny. So, while I might consider the show as a big troll attack on the Disney Imperium, it likely is not.

Although would have been a time issue eventually to bring a blacksmith in.

Stripping the episode from all related to the main cast, exception Emma, concentrating on the Merlin and Nimue/Emma Dark One I could see some potential in it. As usual though expect nothing interesting to come out of it.

I forwarded through most of the Mills-Charmings quest, because, sorry, not interested in them anymore, not at all, wouldn't mind if the magic dragon puffs them away with just one deep breather.

And Arthur - kinda interesting although having a feeling here too, they will scrap only the surface as well. He is so obsessed with the idea of glory. Guess Excalibur had not much of a good influence on him, being in a different way as poisonous as the Dark One dagger is on its own. A tool of life, the grail, turned into a tool of might, the sword, which split up has become two poisonous thorns in the sides of people, feeding and bringing out the darkness in them, turning them into tools of destruction while they keep on reasoning, they do all for good reasons. And in some way the root of (this) evil had been love. Ironic.

One thing I got out of this episode: Think should keep an eye on Caroline Ford. Hope she'll get some interesting roles.

[YaddaYadda]

One thing I got out of this episode: Think should keep an eye on Caroline Ford.

 

I thought she was pretty spectacular in that scene with Merlin when she's about to crush the heart, and her scenes with JMo were outstanding. She looked like someone who has been in this role for a really long time. She was great.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Once Upon A Time's Merlin Gets A Bummer Of A Backstory
Also: Emma continues to struggle with her dark side, Zelena makes funny faces, and Jesus Christ enters the OUAT mythology.

[MedievalGirl]

The idea of the Holy Grail is based on Celtic Mythology. One version make its way into the Disney film the Black Cauldron. The only explicitly Biblical reference I've seen on the show so far is Arthur mentioning that the magic torch they used had a piece of the burning bush. The Christianity of Arthurian legends seems like such a thin veneer I guess it never occurred to me that this show acknowledging Arthur also acknowledged Jesus. 

The Black Cauldron, wouldn't that be fun. 

Oh wait. That cauldron of magic goop that Arthur made to kill our Heroes. I though it purpose was the make Guinevere realize how far he's gone or maybe it will accidentally harm her. Maybe it is to contrast the peace and healing Merlin professed. 

[iMonrey]

 

I don't think it was the grail alone that turns people to dust. I think the rock is involved. Emma could not touch the sword when it was in the rock, but she could easily pick it up once it was pulled.

 

I don't think it had anything to do with the rock it was sitting on, otherwise they did a crap job of explaining that. My impression was that Merlin's companion in the opening scene was somehow unworthy. When Merlin approached the Grail he looked up to the heavens and said "With your permission" or something like that. It didn't really make any sense that Nimue was able to drink from the Grail without some kind of special permission. 

 

Also, I'm really tired of the show playing fast and loose with the rules of what makes someone "Dark." Nimue used magic to kill someone, so she became the First Dark One. Well . . . Regina has used magic to kills someone over and over again. Why isn't she the Dark One? Is it that there can be only one "Dark One?" And in Camelot, Emma has the the "darkness" inside of her which makes her magic "dark" but she won't be "The Dark One" until she . . . what, embraces the darkness? Kills someone with magic? Seems like there are an awful lot of variations on what makes someone Dark and whether or not it's permanent. 

 

It looked like Merlin had to brew some special kind of cauldron potion to make the Dagger control Nimue but all Zelena had to do was look at a spell in a book and "poof" Excalibur into conrolling Merlin. Guess she figured out a shortcut?

[scenicbyway]

Well, at least the story is moving forward, backward and sideways (thanks Zelena).  I liked the backstory on Nimue and Merlin (curious that he couldn't see the future with Nimue, perhaps love is blind)?

So how did the Apprentice live so long?  Did he know that Merlin was trapped in a tree?  Why did Merlin have a mansion in Storybrooke after the last curse if he's been trapped in a tree.  How could Merlin visit Emma at the movies but not Arthur who was next door in his sand castle?  Why didn't Nimue dissolve into dust when she drank from the cup?

 

Why do the Nevengers continue to make dumb mistakes, how many times was it voiced that they knew Zelena would betray them? I wonder if Zelena really has an escape plan or if she just plans to live in Camelot and raise her baby? 

 

Why did Merlin and Emma walk to the former flame garden?  Why didn't they just poof there?

 

The actress portraying Nimue was great and I think help raise the level for Jen to perform Emma. 

 

So a soul can to be tethered to Excalibur?  Why was it that Arthur was allowed to pull the sword again? How does his role make any sense?

[Daisy]

I'm not understanding how Nimue became "the dark one"

Like what specifically. She crushed a heart like we've seen all the time, and used magic to do it, like we've seen it all the time. 

Is it because she was immortal? Was it because she used the HG's power for bad? 

speaking of

Why did the HG give Merlin magic? why was he immortal

 

but back to Nimue - so. okay. she's all glittery skin and evil, and mask wearing.... but how does the whole - Kill me, and become the dark one tie in? like.. I'm lost. Did Merlin build it in there somehow like "let's keep it tethered. What about the black magic-goop - the pure evilness? 

[RadioGirl27]

If I completely ignore the absurd timeline and the wacky morality, I think this was the best episode of the season. The scene between Hook and Emma was beautiful and, with the one with Emma and Nimue, the highlight of the episode for me.

 

I love Zelena and Arthur. They are terrible people and nobody is trying to sell them as something different.

[Rosiejuliemom]

I'm kind of disappointed that we haven't seen the dwarves or granny for 3-4 episodes in the Camelot flashbacks. And no, a blurry image of Granny in the background doesn't count. Why bring them along at all? They once again promised to shake up the status quo with them tagging along, but it's like they don't exist. Why bring them along in the first place?

The dwarves or Granny could have easily come along to help watch Zelena.

Heck, Granny would have never fallen for Zelena's trick.

 

Granny would have shot a crossbow bolt into Zelena's leg the moment she saw her foot move. "There. Now you have a real reason to cry."

 

I'm not sure what I enjoyed more, all the CS goodness, Emma grabbing the necklace while summoning Nimue, or Emma's "I'm not nothing! I've never been nothing!". Tough call. JMo definitely knocked it out of the park.

 

Arthur sucks once again.

[ParadoxLost]

Did I understand that correctly?  Was Zelena able to magic Merlin's name onto Excalibur?

 

If so, I'm enormously annoyed that there is such an easy out to get Emma's name off the dagger.  I'm not sure if I'm more annoyed that it hasn't been used yet or that it will be.  Also, if this is right, then Zelena is also too powerful and that was a stupid move they will regret later.

Edited November 10, 2015 by ParadoxLost

[mercfan3]

My theory is that Merlin was the first to be gifted with magic, from the grail. Once Nimue took a sip, she became immortal and full of magic herself. I thinks he was the first to pull a heart, and I think she was the first to do evil with magic. That's why she's the dark one. Sure, others have done dark things, but she's the origin of dark magic. 

 

I also thought that it was pulling from the stone that caused turning to dust. Once someone worthy pulled it, anyone could touch it. Similarly to how Merlin was the person worthy of the grail, but once he had it, anyone could drink from it. 

Edited November 10, 2015 by mercfan3

[chrisvee]

My theory is that Merlin was the first to be gifted with magic, from the grail. Once Nimue took a sip, she became immoral and full of magic herself. I thinks he was the first to pull a heart, and I think she was the first to do evil with magic. That's why she's the dark one. Sure, others have done dark things, but she's the origin of dark magic.

That's what I took from it. Both were granted power but Merlin used his for the light while Nimue used hers for the dark. Thus she began to transform into the first Dark One.

Merlin kept her under control by tethering her to the dagger and creating the rules around it to limit the immortality of any individual Dark One but he lost control of it when he confronted her but couldn't kill her. She treed him then went on her merry dark way until Dark One #2 killed her.

Edited November 10, 2015 by chrisvee

[mercfan3]

I'd like to know how she died. 

 

Rumple was tricked into killing the dark one. I wonder how Nimue  died. In fact, I think I'd like to see a whole series of the history of the dark one. 

[Daisy]

My theory is that Merlin was the first to be gifted with magic, from the grail. Once Nimue took a sip, she became immortal and full of magic herself. I thinks he was the first to pull a heart, and I think she was the first to do evil with magic. That's why she's the dark one. Sure, others have done dark things, but she's the origin of dark magic. 

 

I also thought that it was pulling from the stone that caused turning to dust. Once someone worthy pulled it, anyone could touch it. Similarly to how Merlin was the person worthy of the grail, but once he had it, anyone could drink from it. 

 

Ohooo that makes sense. Thanks!!

So it's sort of like. had Nimue had chosen to be good - there wouldn't have been a Dark One at all - i wonder. Hm. but there always needs to be some sort of balance. (and I wonder if this was something Merlin could see, even though he lied) - he was kind of adamant about not having Niume drink from the HG. 

 

That's what I took from it. Both were granted power but Merlin used his for the light while Nimue used hers for the dark. Thus she began to transform into the first Dark One.

Merlin kept her under control by tethering her to the dagger and creating the rules around it to limit the immortality of any individual Dark One but he lost control of it when he confronted her but couldn't kill her. She treed him then went on her merry dark way until Dark One #2 killed her.

 

It is v. obvious I need to rewatch this. (laugh). but thanks for expanding on this, this makes sense now :)

 

 

I'd like to know how she died. 

 

Rumple was tricked into killing the dark one. I wonder how Nimue  died. In fact, I think I'd like to see a whole series of the history of the dark one. 

 

Me too. like. how does the transfer of Dark-Oness start. And the bigger question - I wonder if you were to kill Merlin, would he transfer over, curiouser and curiouser. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Also, I'm really tired of the show playing fast and loose with the rules of what makes someone "Dark." Nimue used magic to kill someone, so she became the First Dark One. Well . . . Regina has used magic to kills someone over and over again. Why isn't she the Dark One? Is it that there can be only one "Dark One?" And in Camelot, Emma has the the "darkness" inside of her which makes her magic "dark" but she won't be "The Dark One" until she . . . what, embraces the darkness? Kills someone with magic? Seems like there are an awful lot of variations on what makes someone Dark and whether or not it's permanent.

It looked like Merlin had to brew some special kind of cauldron potion to make the Dagger control Nimue but all Zelena had to do was look at a spell in a book and "poof" Excalibur into conrolling Merlin. Guess she figured out a shortcut?

On a related note, Merlin clearly told Nimue that if he used magic to kill someone, the darkness would overtake him but how exactly did he know that? His powers didn't come with a mentor or a training manual. I mean, I admire the fact that he used magic for over 500 years without ever using it for revenge or in anger but how did he KNOW that killing someone with magic would turn him dark? Was that written on the big rock where he found the holy grail?

The magic that we saw him do in the flashbacks was all of the "look constipated while making swirly hand motions" variety yet later Zelena found his spell book. So did he just experiment to see what would happen if he yelled, "JELLO PUDDING POPS!" while holding daisies in one hand and pointing at a lake and then write down the results? What differentiates the kind of magic where you just have to focus and concentrate versus needing ingredients and words? And how did Merlin know that turning the cup into a sword by using the spark would free him from magic anf immortality? More guessing?

Edited November 10, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[tennisgurl]

 

The Christianity of Arthurian legends seems like such a thin veneer I guess it never occurred to me that this show acknowledging Arthur also acknowledged Jesus.

Yeah, this show got kind of close to acknowledging religion in the first season, with some of the religious looking iconography in the Enchanted Forest, and the fairies being nuns, but its backed away from that as soon as possible. Its a bit of an elephant in the living room, especially this season with the Arthurian mythology. Now, I cannot imagine this show actually dealing with anything religion or anything close to it, but it is funny watching them inch closer to religious mythology, and then scampering away as quickly as possible. 

[Dianthus]

Have I mentioned lately how f*cking tired I am of Regina's f*cking attitude?

 

Also, Nimue crushes the heart of one really bad guy, thus becoming the Dark One, while Queen Bitch crushes the heart of an innocent man - on his wedding day, in front of his loved ones - and now she's a hero?

WHERE ARE YOUR F*CKING PARALLELS NOW, SHOW?!?

Hell, Emma's replaced both of the hearts she's taken so far.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Dianthus

[Camera One]

On a related note, Merlin clearly told Nimue that if he used magic to kill someone, the darkness would overtake him but how exactly did he know that? His powers didn't come with a mentor or a training manual. I mean, I admire the fact that he used magic for over 500 years without ever using it for revenge or in anger but how did he KNOW that killing someone with magic would turn him dark? Was that written on the big rock where he found the holy grail?

The magic that we saw him do in the flashbacks was all of the "look constipated while making swirly hamd motions" variety yet later Zelena found his spell book. So did he just experiment to see what would happen if he yelled, "JELLO PUDDING POPS!" while holding daisies in one hand and pointing at a lake and then wrote down the results? What differentiates the kind of magic where you just have to focus and concentrate versus needing ingredients and words? And how did Merlin know that turning the cup into a sword by using the spark would free him from magic anf immortality? More guessing?

 

The writers would probably say he knew because he knew.  Since he could see the future sometimes when it's convenient.

 

I also loved his "I have magic!" declaration when he drank from the chalice and the grass turned green.  Or maybe they were just spelling it out for the audience who might have concluded something else.

[babyPhat279]

Wait, so I'm confused. Is Nimue dead? I thought she said she wasn't, which confused me because usually you have to die to pass on the DO status. Eh, whatever. That bitch caved fast to the darkness.

[Terrafamilia]

Yes, Pretty Merlin. That's it. Set the world to rights. Call the Dragon. Mend the sword. Speak the Charm of Making.

Anál nathrach, orth' b...Er, sorry, wrong Merlin.

 

Arthur Pendragon's people should be filing a defamation suit.

 

As we saw last week, if you have the right magic ingredients and the right magic implements non-magical people can whip up spells out of the right magical spellbooks. Or at least certain spells, or something.

[Tiger]

I thought she was pretty spectacular in that scene with Merlin when she's about to crush the heart, and her scenes with JMo were outstanding. She looked like someone who has been in this role for a really long time. She was great.

If the producers needed an extra hour, they should have sent the second unit out with Elliot Knight & Caroline Ford and expanded upon Merlin & Nimue's backstories.

I really hope ABC puts the two of them (and Dillon Casey recently on Shield) as regulars on shows soon.

[Camera One]

If the producers needed an extra hour, they should have sent the second unit out with Elliot Knight & Caroline Ford and expanded upon Merlin & Nimue's backstories.

 

I can already imagine the promo with "Total Eclipse of the Heart" playing in the background, with all the slo-mo moments.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Camera One

[Mathius]

Wait, so I'm confused. Is Nimue dead? I thought she said she wasn't, which confused me because usually you have to die to pass on the DO status. Eh, whatever. That bitch caved fast to the darkness.

 

Physically, yes.  But the Darkness is literally her soul, with the darkness of every other Dark One assimilated into it, so she's still alive in that sense.

[MedievalGirl]

I think Nimue was able to drink from the Holy Grail because initially her idea of revenge was planting flower seeds. Even after they visited her destroyed village she still talked about revenge in terms of using a power like Merlin's to help those who have had a lot taken from them. It is only after she has drunk from the cup and gained the power herself that she talks about killing someone.  That's the beginning of her descent into being the Dark One. 

[Camera One]

Jane Espenson said Nimue didn't become dark from drinking from the cup.  I suppose it was from wanting vengeance and giving in to the darkness.  Maybe it was an acting choice, but her face seemed to completely change when Merlin revealed he possessed the holy grail, and not in a good way.

[Shanna Marie]

I wonder if some of the stuff that's been attributed to Merlin was stuff he created while trying to deal with Nimue and his own powers but that's since been corrupted by people trying to use it in other ways. I don't think we've been given any indication of how long it was between Nimue becoming the Dark One and her treeing him. Since they're both immortal, it could have been centuries -- assuming that "200 years ago" thing was an error -- or at least years. We know he had at least long enough to put the sword in the stone and create the dagger. She broke the sword so he couldn't rid himself of his own powers, so maybe the hat was another attempt of his to save her or stop her either by sucking her into the hat or removing her power, or it could have been something he came up with to try to remove his own power. And then later Dark Ones figured out other ways they could use it. I'm not sure where the Authors fit in -- maybe his way of having correspondents to keep him updated on what was going on in the world while he was in the tree? But then why on earth would he give them the power to change events?

 

I got the feeling that Merlin, pre-tree, was the kind of good who's rather naive. He's a naturally good person with good intentions, so he has no concept of someone using something he sees as a force for good for evil. It just doesn't occur to him how something could be misused (like Leonard of Quirm in the Discworld books, where he just enjoys inventing stuff and the fact that his inventions all seem to have deadly military applications doesn't even occur to him).

 

As for how he knew about forging a sword from the Grail, etc., it seems like he knew the Grail for what it was, so apparently it was known, and he'd had plenty of time to do all the research on it.

[Camera One]

This reminds me, hopefully Belle brought the Hat Box in her purse, since it would come in handy right now to cleave Merlin from the broken sword.  Now, if only the moon and the stars would align.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Jane Espenson said Nimue didn't become dark from drinking from the cup.  I suppose it was from wanting vengeance and giving in to the darkness.  Maybe it was an acting choice, but her face seemed to completely change when Merlin revealed he possessed the holy grail, and not in a good way.

 

Nimue was seduced by the power that the grail offered. She talks about how much they could help people. Rumpel felt the same way about the power and how he could use it to end the ogre wars. He too was seduced by it. Nimue chose to use the power given to her to exact revenge and it twisted her into something evil. Rumpel killed Zoso for the power and it twisted him as well. Emma, meanwhile, rejected the power. Emma was not seduced by the Darkness. She faced it head on and said she did not need it. Do you hear that, Belle? That's the difference between Rumpelstiltskin and Emma Swan.

Edited November 10, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[InsertWordHere]

So before Merlin left in the middle of their conversation (that's rude Arthur!), Emma was saying "Henry, my God, he's growing up so fast. Sometimes I can hardly believe..."

 

She was totally going to finish it with "He's only 13." Right? 

[Camera One]

ONLY conversation in the entire episode (dare I say, the entire half season) which was a normal, everyday conversation, and it's cut short.  Of course..........

Edited November 10, 2015 by Camera One

[jhlipton]

I think I'd like to see a whole series of the history of the dark one. 

 

As long as it's not by these writers!

[myril]

The idea of the Holy Grail is based on Celtic Mythology. One version make its way into the Disney film the Black Cauldron. The only explicitly Biblical reference I've seen on the show so far is Arthur mentioning that the magic torch they used had a piece of the burning bush. The Christianity of Arthurian legends seems like such a thin veneer I guess it never occurred to me that this show acknowledging Arthur also acknowledged Jesus.

The Holy Grail might have some Celtic elements and roots but it became a Christian myth, mingled with the legend of the Holy Chalice. The Arthurian tales are interwoven with as much as creating ideals of Christian knighthood and courtly love. One theory of origin is the myth of a magical cauldron able to give life back to fallen warriors, though eventually without giving them souls (thus turning them into zombies, walking dead), which is said to be Celtic mythology. That is the cauldron you mentioned Disney referenced to in the film Black Cauldron. Thing with Celtic mythology is, that it itself has become myth, we don't know that much about the Celts from the Celts themselves, there is a lot of second hand sources in play. And as often when looking into mythology and folktales can find similar elements in different cultures and stories, sometimes might be coincidence sometimes they copied or influenced each other. We by now have mingled and mixed in our narration these stories and reused them as templates for our own modern fantasies and fairy tales. Christian lore and mythology is full of elements of other, older mythology, they haven't invented story telling and creation of legends, that is likely as old as human self awareness. As I see it the Holy Grail has become much associated with Christian legends and symbolism.

While the Holy Grail has strong references in general to Christian tales, the Holy Grail on the show doesn't have to have any kind of that reference though. Just because it shows up on the show doesn't mean there had to be a Jesus in the OUaT worlds, or anyone comparable to it. That myth and the connection of the Grail to the Holy Chalice could be very well even in the OUaT universe a narrative of "our" world, (which once was called the world without magic), while the grail we get to see, the one Merlin and Nimue drank from could have a different story of origin. That always has been an implication of the show's universe IMO, that the narrative we have in books, as myth, legend, fiction, are not one and the same with the events that happened in the OUaT worlds.

Think what can happen easily, but that is more an interesting matter for discussing audience reception of the show less the episode in itself, is that we mix in our perception our own interpretation of imagery, possible ideas the writers might have had and the meaning or use of something inside of the OUaT world, what it means for the characters, their action, how something came into existence inside the OUaT world. So because we are used to see the Holy Grail in connection with Christian myths of salvation we conclude that it has to be the same inside the OUaT story world. It wasn't said though it is, nothing is said about how the Holy Grail came to be, if I am not mistaken. It though looked less to be about the myth of a cauldron bringing fallen warriors back (maybe the cauldron Arthur worked with was a potshot), but more about a miracle tool which showed up right in time to someone hoping for the gods (whatever gods he believes in) to take care of him and his companion - that scene was full of Christian imagery even if the Holy Grail in OUaT likely has little to do with the Holy Chalice legend in our world. Was anyone else thinking during that scene of some 1940s and 1950s biblical epic Hollywood Golden Age Technicolor movies with Charlton Heston (which could have inspired some Star Wars design)?

 

 

Yeah, this show got kind of close to acknowledging religion in the first season, with some of the religious looking iconography in the Enchanted Forest, and the fairies being nuns, but its backed away from that as soon as possible. Its a bit of an elephant in the living room, especially this season with the Arthurian mythology. Now, I cannot imagine this show actually dealing with anything religion or anything close to it, but it is funny watching them inch closer to religious mythology, and then scampering away as quickly as possible.

As I see it the show doesn't need to explicitly bring up religion as subject per se to use tons of religiously charged imagery as in this or other episodes. The Grimm Brothers narrations of fairy tales are full of Christian imagery, so IMO it would be more of a surprise if the show wouldn't be as well. And certainly the Arthurian tales have been mixed over time with plenty of Christian imagery too, so no surprise either if it shows on the show. Likely that is something more for an academic analyse (anyone looking for a master theses subject in anthropology, history, literature, film arts?) and less for simply enjoying the fun of Sunday eve distraction entertainment. The writers are playing with themes and imagery that can work on many levels of meaning, not always sure how much of it is implied or noticed by the writers themselves though. I don't think they are scampering away from religion of any kind as if it's too hot of a subject to touch, it just doesn't matter to their narrative, despite that they are using plenty of religiously charged imagery. I might think it's a pity, I like fantasy stories with elaborate world building in the background, and it can add dimension to a fictional world, but the show can go without showing us the likely many religions of the OUaT universe.

 

 

Nimue was seduced by the power that the grail offered. She talks about how much they could help people. Rumpel felt the same way about the power and how he could use it to end the ogre wars. He too was seduced by it. Nimue chose to use the power given to her to exact revenge and it twisted her into something evil. Rumpel killed Zoso for the power and it twisted him as well. Emma, meanwhile, rejected the power. Emma was not seduced by the Darkness. She faced it head on and said she did not need it. Do you hear that, Belle? That's the difference between Rumpelstiltskin and Emma Swan.

Agreed. Power corrupts, or it often does. Magic is power, the Holy Grail offered power. While the Dark One is certainly a personification of evil I don't see it as an entity in itself. Emma asked Merlin, if it is possible that someone could ever use that darkness or power of it in a good way, which he first denies, then says, maybe, one day someone might be strong enough and not loose their soul to the darkness while using the immense power. It was one of those moments which often get buried in plot rush hour and throwing more gadgets and characters into the story. Wonder if something will come out of it.

When making a power visible as they do with the Dark One and its darkness on the show, it tempts us viewers to see it as an entity in itself, on its own, but maybe we shouldn't take everything shown on the show that literally. When the characters talk what we get to hear what is their interpretation of events, but that doesn't meant that is the only way to look at what happened nor that it is what happened. Meanwhile magic is something they have to make visible for us to see, as a process and not just as result (the downside of screen story telling, you have to be visual not wordy), be it these colorful light rays and smoke clouds or some goo looking whirling something and a person showing dark snake or lizard like greenish skin (ah, they symbolism of snakes as representation of evil, more Christian imagery included). Although at times think they should give the audience a bit more credit for being likely imaginative and having some smarts to get something without having to see comic like CGI representation.On the other hand often enough see audiences not getting some things because of the way they are made visible on screen.

[YaddaYadda]

Zelena did not call Arthur "Artie". I actually giggled at that.

[Mitch]

Okay episode...I hate the extra characters which we know will disappear in the second half of the season, but at least these characters are used to tell a story about how the dark one thing got created.  What I don't understand is, Blue said the "Dark One," magic is not from there world...but isnt Camelot part of their world???Or is it a different realm?

 

Loved Zelena and they are using her correctly...as a foil to the main cast and, yea, I pretty much like her expressions and dismissal of the Charmings and Regina. Snow, as usual agains earns her S2 nickname of "Those idiots," and can we just leave the Charmings in SB next time when everyone goes on an adventure? Arthur is an ass but he is hot..if only Zelena and he could team up for a couple of episodes... Could Robin Hood be duller???I am still not buying Regina being that into him.

 

Hey, no Henry mean a good episode. Please no more pre teen love stories....

[Starving Writer]

What I want to know is ... what was the point of making a big deal about bringing Granny and the Dwarves to Camelot in the first episode, only to then promptly have them disappear over the rest of the season? Or did I imagine all of that?

Anyway, this is where I see this storyline going. I think Emma is working with Merlin and pretending to be dark in Storybrooke. This whole thing is a ruse that Emma, Merlin, and the Storybrookians came up with to defeat Arthur. The plan, basically, is for Emma to take away everybody's memories, and to transport everybody back to Storybroook while pretending to re-enact the the "curse." (Note that none of Emma's "true love" is dead, which is a requirement to enact that curse.) Emma will pretend to have succumbed to the darkness, attempt to repair Excalibur, and ferret out Arthur's true plans. This episode revealed several clues (namely, everybody saw Emma making dreamcatchers, which as we all know stores memories, as well as Arthur's two possible choices that Emma could take).

I also think that Emma's true purpose for reforging Excalibur is to open the way to the Underworld, in which she will then attempt to rescue Neil/Baelfire. There's been too many anvils dropped regarding Neil this half-season for it to be mere coincidence. I suspect that 5B will utilize the Hercules characters and world.

[legaleagle53]

I'm not understanding how Nimue became "the dark one"

Like what specifically. She crushed a heart like we've seen all the time, and used magic to do it, like we've seen it all the time. 

 

It's because Yoda was right -- anger leads to the Dark Side. That's what Merlin specifically warned both Nimue and Emma against.

[Shanna Marie]

I'm not understanding how Nimue became "the dark one"

Like what specifically. She crushed a heart like we've seen all the time, and used magic to do it, like we've seen it all the time.

I think it's the fact that she used the power from the Holy Grail to crush a heart that did the trick. If they're going anywhere near the Christianized Grail mythology, then the Grail has a lot to do with purity. Only the most pure knight was able to find it. So, taking the power of the Grail and then using it to kill for revenge corrupted the purity and turned it dark. Presumably, the same sort of thing might happen to Merlin if he did something dark.

 

I suppose it mirrors that fear of what Emma would turn out to be as a True Love baby -- she would have great power, and it could go either light or dark.

 

I was going to say that the price for the magic of the Grail was having to remain good, but there actually doesn't seem to be that big a downside to being the Dark One as long as being controlled by the dagger doesn't come into play.

[MDKNIGHT]

"I didn't think that was the case this time: the Holy Grail's magic is holy, granting eternal life to the one who intakes it, which means that there is no need to kill anyone in self-defense because you can't die now (unless killed by the same power, so in Merlin's case either Excalibur or the Dark One can kill him), and your magic is so powerful that you can subdue an enemy nonlethally. "

Not that I think the writers thought about this but if that is how things work why did the Grail kill the guy Merlin was running away with and NOT kill Nimue when she sneaked a sip? What the heck criteria is the Grail using as to who gets immortality or not?

I am having trouble following Arthur's decent into evil. That rant about his sword and how somehow Merlin harmed him by making him king I just don't get it. The only thing I can sort of piece together is that Arthur is slightly crazy so his rage isn't supposed to make rational sense. It is sort of like blaming a 10 year old for your fiance's death when it was your mom who killed him. I definately think Arthur's madness centers around lack of confidence in his sexual verility. He seems to think everybody is snickering about the size of his phalic symbol when nobody but a couple of people even know the sword is broken. He could have reigned Camelot for all is life and there would have been no problem. And then Guenivere chooses another man and that finished his snapping. But again the sword and his manhood are inexticably entwined for Arthur in a way they really shouldn't be.

I too enjoyed Emma's performance. However I am still completely confused about what her end game is. I hope Merlin isn't actually dead but it doesn't look good yet he STILL has more of a shot of being alive than Glen on TWD. Rats.

[Shanna Marie]

Not that I think the writers thought about this but if that is how things work why did the Grail kill the guy Merlin was running away with and NOT kill Nimue when she sneaked a sip? What the heck criteria is the Grail using as to who gets immortality or not?

The only thing I can think of is that it's the stone, not the chalice. It seems to be the same one that was guarding the sword. Only certain people could draw the sword or take the chalice from the stone, but once those people have removed these things from the stone, anyone can use them. Which seems like a crappy security system.

 

As for Arthur, he is reminding me a lot of Regina in his blaming Merlin for everything. From the sounds of it, Merlin told him he could draw the sword and be the king who could make Camelot great. Then Arthur decided that because the sword was incomplete, it was all a joke on him. He felt like he could only be the prophesied king if he completed the sword, and so he got obsessed with that, and he thought Merlin tricked him.

 

The moral of the story is, prophecies never go well. People get obsessed with either trying to force things to happen or prevent things from happening, so there's no point in telling anyone what you've seen in their future.

[AudienceofOne]

Actually both the cup and the Arthurian mythology is pre-Christian with a Christian veneer over the top of it. I have written a lot of Merlin fan fiction (though as usual I'm not sure I should admit that) and I deliberately centred the mythology pre-Christian because a lot of the Christianisation of the myth doesn't actually make much sense. You could argue Arthur's story is a perfect representation of the monomyth, as was the constructed Jesus myth itself, so it would make sense for Christians to appropriate Arthur as a Christ figure. But he was always a complete douche as far as I can tell. I kind of like that Once has embraced that.

 

The Holy Grail itself is manifestly pre-Christian, with its existence given Christian elements later. Basically, nothing the show has done hints at religion so far in anything but a Dan Brown-esque way. Which is to say, not at all. Unless of course you acknowledge that religion is just a dogmatic acceptance of a body of myths. But I wouldn't want to offend anybody here.

[Dianthus]

So, out of some morbid curiosity, I just had to go read Lily Sparks's recap of this ep on tv.com. LOL! She made it seem like Hook was scared to go after Excalibur in the scene where he gets (justifiably, IMO) angry at Merlin. Then she reduces their insanely romantic leave-taking, lip-locking scene to Hook saying "Here, take this trinket" to Emma while holding out his ring (and denying that it could possibly be anything special by making a snotty comment about how much jewelry he wears/owns). What a joke. Oddly (and blessedly) silent on the SQ front, tho'. Stupid cow.

[Camera One]

And what happened to Lancelot? Wasn't he just recently hanging with Merlin, Hook, and Charming in the woods after the jail break? Did the four guys ever realize Merida and Belle went missing? What was the point of Merlin, Charming, Hook, and Belle rescuing Lancelot from the cell if it didn't even lead to anything important? Why not leave Lancelot's dungeon rescue for this episode when the gang actually had a legitimate reason to storm the castle? Or why not steal Excalibur during their first prisoner break in last week's episode? Or why didn't they bring Lancelot along with them in this episode to retrieve Excalibur because he knows the castle layout better than anyone? Hadn't he been sneaking around the castle for a while before Snow discovered he was alive? .

 

That is such a great question.  I can't believe I didn't even wonder where Lancelot was.  This show is SO good at distracting you that even discussing the last episode for a week, it completely slipped my mind that Merlin, Charming, Lancelot, etc. were purposefully going into the forest to do something... exactly what?  Why wouldn't Arthur's troops have stormed Granny's by now?   

 

And why is Regina's powers suddenly so weak now that she's a "hero"?  Can't every magical user just "freeze" someone in their place?  Couldn't they have done that to every guard they saw?  Why didn't they just tell everyone in Camelot that Arthur has a broken sword, and deprive him of any loyal soldiers?

 

I kinda wish they incorporated a bit of Blue in Merlin/Nimue's backstory.  Like Blue was a human neighbor or friend or a sister of Merlin who warned him about Nimue but he refused to listen.  That could explain why Blue became so bitter and contemptuous of the Dark One, and lead to a story of how she too became immortal, but with strings.  Maybe she agreed to never have love because she was so in love with Merlin that she felt she would never love another.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

 

And why is Regina's powers suddenly so weak now that she's a "hero"?

 

Zelena said that they couldn't poof into Arthur's bedchamber because they might poof onto the sword or something. I wondered why the hell Regina can't just use her magic mirror to see where Arthur is, then once assured he's not in his room, poof in there and wait to ambush him when he arrives. The whole part where they couldn't use magic because reasons was stupid.