S02.E21: Everybody's Talking 'Bout It

[Primetimer]

Can a student really campaign effectively for increased access to safer sex resources if she's A VIRGIN??? (Some people will not just tell you no; they will bray it into your face.)

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[Primetimer]

Only a victory confirmed by adults could make Andrea gloat like this! But don't worry: Brandon's going to make sure her feelings of elevated self-esteem don't last.

Read the story

[Tooch]

Aha, this episode brings relevance to my mentions on previous threads: for someone who acts like such a goddamn casanova and walks like he has an eight-pound dick, Brandon has, at the time of his tearing a strip off Andrea for talking about sex when she's never had any, had sex exactly ONE time.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Tooch

[TeeVee329]

Brandon and Emily Valentine never Did It?

[YoSaffBridge]

What kind of asshole waits for the pizza to get there to try and bone? Come on, David.

[TeeVee329]

What kind of asshole waits for the pizza to get there to try and bone? Come on, David.

 

To be fair, he went into his wallet to get money for the pizza and the condom fell out.  He wasn't trying to get it in while the pizza was congealing.

[TaibasJones]

That French manicure is very 80s VHS porno.

[Picture It. Sicily]

They were always kind of ambiguous about Brandon and Emily going all the way.

[Picture It. Sicily]

He's a teenage boy. The pizza would never have had time to congeal.

[gesundheit]

They were always kind of ambiguous about Brandon and Emily going all the way.

I'm pretty sure they had sex right after Dead Scott became Dead Scott because Emily gave a speech about how they don't know how long they've got so they might as well enjoy life while they're at it. She'd been a virgin before that.

[MostlyC]

I going to think about this episode as The One With All The Awkward Pauses.  Your audio clips have sealed the deal for me.

 

Brandon, I thought, got around.  I was pretty sure he had sex with every girl he went out with.  We just didn't get actual confirmation so it didn't piss off the advertisers.  Also, his attitude towards Andrew is beyond appalling.  

 

One of the Five Ways to kill Brandon needs to be:  Andrea strangles him with a condom.

 

They wanted Kelly to hand out the condoms because she is girl with the reputation.  It's okay for high school guys to have sex, but not girls; such is the double standard.  

 

Poor David- all set to get frisky, and then he's shot down.  For the next five seasons.

 

"That's way harsh Tai."  HA-hahahahahahahahahaha!  You guys need to have a Clueless commentary.

[Hollysdower]

GO HARD FOR ABSTINENCE!

 

My favorite thing about this episode was the TV news reporter at the school at the beginning who said this:

 

No matter what happens tomorrow, one thing remains clear: when it comes to the issue of teenage sexuality, everyone's passion can become inflamed. For Newswatch, I'm Ebony Bear.

 

He's Ebony Bear?!

 

I don't know how I can continue to be surprised at what an ass Brandon is, but he really topped himself this week.

 

I don't understand what David meant when he said to Donna, "I guess driving to Vegas is out of the question"? Can someone enlighten me?

Edited November 9, 2015 by Hollyhox

[sinkwriter]

I assume "driving to Vegas" means going there to get married (the place of quickie weddings in Elvis chapels) so that then Donna will have sex with him (because she won't have sex until she's married).

Edited November 9, 2015 by sinkwriter

[Tooch]

I always thought Brandon and Emily did NOT do it (until Thanksgiving 1993, of course), actually, because of the night she sneaks into his bed and begs him to do it with her, promising that he won't want to break up with her if they do it (gross).

But I suppose the Dead Scott episode and her speech about living life makes a compelling argument...

I never got the sense that he was boning any of his one-episode girlfriends.

[Tara Ariano]

I always thought Brandon and Emily did NOT do it (until Thanksgiving 1993, of course), actually, because of the night she sneaks into his bed and begs him to do it with her, promising that he won't want to break up with her if they do it (gross).

 

...as I said in the podcast! :)

[sinkwriter]

"He put his thing in someone else's thing"? Tara, when you said that, I almost spit out my lunch, I was laughing so hard. Heeeee.

Also, shut up, Brandon.

 

I thought they did sleep together, because when Brandon finally snapped after all her stalking and his lousy attempts at ending their relationship, didn't Emily say something about being a virgin before she started dating him? I guess I assumed she was saying she waited until she met someone special (meaning Brandon) and now with the way he treated her, she feels like dirt. Or was she only talking like he *treated* her like a whore, but that they actually hadn't had sex yet?

Edited November 9, 2015 by sinkwriter

[SoupThrower]

Don't worry David her life gets complicated for another 5 seasons but at least there are happier times with Clare and Valerie and I guess Mary and the other Mary. And hey Donna he kind of waited after like 5 girls.

Fluff Mullet did anonymously. Maybe he gets to be above and the rest don't?

Why oh why would you give Brandon power when it is your job to tell Zuckerman to stop.

You all are going to hate me or even more but I enjoyed Brandon's smackdown on Andrea mainly because she came off really grating and it is TV absurd. Also Andrea looked so smug when Kelly said she couldn't get with Brandon.

Also move on Zuckerman but I guess all the excitement on going on a date must have made Fluff Mullet combust.

Eh this episode was eh.

But yeah what problems did Donna have? Her father couldn't decide which medical field he's in?

Edited November 9, 2015 by SoupThrower

[TeeVee329]

I thought they did sleep together, because when Brandon finally snapped after all her stalking and his lousy attempts at ending their relationship, didn't Emily say something about being a virgin before she started dating him? I guess I assumed she was saying she waited until she met someone special (meaning Brandon) and now with the way he treated her, she feels like dirt. Or was she only talking like he *treated* her like a whore, but that they actually hadn't had sex yet?

 

Yeah, in the episode where Brenda told her to have a good time at the gynecologist, Emily said that she was a virgin, but was going on the pill so she'd be ready.

 

And I also thought the stalk-y messages she left on the answering machine for Jim and Cindy to hear made it sound like they had sex, but I could be remembering wrong.

Edited November 9, 2015 by TeeVee329

[marny]

I didn't think the time Brandon had sex with his Minnesota (ex?) girlfriend was his first time. Did they say it was? I assumed they were sleeping together in Minnesota and the time they had sex in BH wasn't that big of a deal, other than it being under Jim and Cindy's roof.

[Cekrypton1]

You can't ta poor Jonathan FluffMullet while letting Mel Silver's glorious "party in the back" go uncommented on.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

It was his first time, because I remember Cheryl getting in a burn about how it's not that big a deal if you've done it before, implying that she had; he had not; and he didn't know she had.

[Tooch]

I think I've firmly settled on the idea that he's only had sex that one time with Cheryl. But no matter how much sex he's had, I'm glad we all agree he's definitely still a butthole.

I hate to defend Dylan because he acted like a jerk to Brenda, but if the point was to use real names, I totally understand why he would be pissed that she didn't even ask him before she was going to publish that.

[SoupThrower]

But here is the thing. Are we supposed to take what Emily says for the truth after the whole drug thing

[Carmen MacCodykins]

Yes, Brandon's first time was with Cheryl. The episode is, after all, called "The First Time". And I agree with those who say he didn't sleep with Emily until college, so he must have only slept with Cheryl at this point. I mean, doesn't it make perfect sense that of course HE would take such a condescending, arrogant attitude towards poor virginal Ahhndrea when he's barely not a virgin himself? ASS. HOLE.

(which reminds me, Tara, you teased about the Brandon Challenge but then never actually did it!)

Side note: I was a little disappointed- no snickering over David's comment that Donna doesn't need to worry because neither of them "have any diseases." Sure, no diseases...YET!! Give yourself time, young Silver.

[gpgurl50]

I seem to remember when Brandon finally told Emily off, one of the things he yelled at for was bragging about a night of passion that never happened. This was right after she was bragging to Andrea about crawling to bed with him. I could be remembering wrong.

I have to say I laughed Steve's joke about getting "seat belts" from David Silver.

I also loved Sarah tearing apart Kelly's scene with Andrea. So good.

[Panda Bear]

FYI: Fluff Mullet went on to play Eddie Fisher in that Lindsay Lohan classic, "Liz & Dick": http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0386438/?ref_=nmmd_md_nm

Edited November 10, 2015 by Panda Bear

[blueroses]

I know Mel Silver is a cheating cheater who cheats, but he is so my favorite parent on the show.

[marny]

Now that I know that earlier episode was about Brandon losing his virginity, I'm even more ragey about the network uproar when Brenda lost her virginity, yet zero reaction to when Brandon lost his.

[desertflower]

Pop channel just showed this today so of course I had to watch it. I saw our old friend Mr. Boom Mike not once, but twice during Felice's speech at the parent's meeting.

Despite his fluff mullet John was kind of cute and they should've kept him around as Andrea's boyfriend for a bit instead of sending him into the abyss of forgotten characters.

[Halo]

Despite his fluff mullet John was kind of cute and they should've kept him around as Andrea's boyfriend for a bit instead of sending him into the abyss of forgotten characters.

Agreed! Especially as we established he likes her and she was into at least going to a movie with him after the stupid safer sex whatever in West Hollywood. It might have been interesting to see how Brandon reacted to Andrea being into another guy and not paying attention to him. It's just like when they dropped the Steve-Andrea makeout. I don't think either of them ever spilled the beans on that, which could have been interesting. As Sarah has said, those two had good chemistry. I feel like Andrea had some potentially good storylines that probably got shut down in favor of Tori Spelling's "stuff."

[SoupThrower]

Yeah would have been nice to have some Andrea stories not revolving around Brandon or the Blaze that every parent reads. Obviously Brandon wasn't interested in her, so they could have had John for a while at least in the 2nd and 3rd season but whatever.

[Qoass]

The irony being that they finally gave her some love interests in college and she immediately has unprotected sex resulting in an unplanned pregnancy...

[Racj82]

I was confused by the term rape culture being used in the podcast. I mean, I'm a dude so I'm probably wrong but neither situation seemed that serious to me. With Nat's I would lock her up in the basement thing, no one took that seriously and that was a overprotective dad thing. It has zero to do with the actual girl. It's their own insecurities. I didn't see anything offensive about. It's not that the overprotective dad isn't a tired trope but it's also a real one as well. With the Mel, Playboy joke. I didn't get that either. He clearly didn't mean it and has demonstrated that. I don't know, I guess I don't understand the term rape culture or how it's supposed to be used. I thought it was for victim blaming and things of that nature against women.

 

I will agree with the above posters love for Mel. Most of us know where this goes but he's great on this show. In fact, he and Jackie are my faves so it's great that they are together. Although I would like to ask why in the hell Kelly and David had to go to that dinner. I don't understand why they made it like it was a double date that couldn't be broken.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Racj82

[Tara Ariano]

I was confused by the term rape culture being used in the podcast. I mean, I'm a dude so I'm probably wrong but neither situation seemed that serious to me. With Nat's I would lock her up in the basement thing, no one took that seriously and that was a overprotective dad thing. It has zero to do with the actual girl. It's their own insecurities. I didn't see anything offensive about. It's not that the overprotective dad isn't a tired trope but it's also a real one as well. With the Mel, Playboy joke. I didn't get that either. He clearly didn't mean it and has demonstrated that. I don't know, I guess I don't understand the term rape culture or how it's supposed to be used. I thought it was for victim blaming and things of that nature against women.

 

WELL THIS IS ABOUT TO GET REAL WONKY but you asked so here goes! Since I was the one who said it: while I obviously know it's a joke (and I was also mostly joking), Nat's comment is an example of rape culture to me because it casts his (imaginary) daughter as an object whose virtue he nominated himself to protect, as opposed to an autonomous person with her own sexual agency, because she is female. To me that satisfies the definition of rape culture as "normalizing male sexual violence" because it's premised on the idea that the hypothetical daughter would automatically be subject to attack -- versus choosing to have sex on her own terms -- if Nat were not to stand in the breach.

 

As for Mel: the (also joking) suggestion that the only sexual education David would require was, I guess, familiarizing himself with what is where by looking at pornographic imagery also normalizes the idea that women exist to be objects for men's sexual gratification. I personally am not of the opinion that all straight pornography is, by definition, exploitative of women, but I feel like even the most sex-positive feminist would agree that there should be more to educating boys about sex than showing them nudie pics. Maybe Mel could have, for example, started by teaching David about consent, because that's a concept that one-third of college-aged men still don't get, twenty-three years later.

[Qoass]

As someone a wee bit older, I can attest that the "lock your daughter in a closet" thing also stemmed from basing her entire value on her virginity  (plus a couple of goats for the dowry) because girls grew up to be wives and mothers and no self-respecting man would want to marry a whore.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Qoass

[scrubs14]

Was there another fairly similar episode later on? Maybe with Rose O'Donnell? That's what I thought this was at first and then realized how wrong I was.

On a brighter note, since I'm home today, I discovered that Pop Channel shows 90210. The best part is that today's episodes are the next two episodes of the podcast. Can't wait to hear the snark.

Edited November 11, 2015 by scrubs14

[Shangrilala]

I love Felice. That is all.

[Racj82]

WELL THIS IS ABOUT TO GET REAL WONKY but you asked so here goes! Since I was the one who said it: while I obviously know it's a joke (and I was also mostly joking), Nat's comment is an example of rape culture to me because it casts his (imaginary) daughter as an object whose virtue he nominated himself to protect, as opposed to an autonomous person with her own sexual agency, because she is female. To me that satisfies the definition of rape culture as "normalizing male sexual violence" because it's premised on the idea that the hypothetical daughter would automatically be subject to attack -- versus choosing to have sex on her own terms -- if Nat were not to stand in the breach.

As for Mel: the (also joking) suggestion that the only sexual education David would require was, I guess, familiarizing himself with what is where by looking at pornographic imagery also normalizes the idea that women exist to be objects for men's sexual gratification. I personally am not of the opinion that all straight pornography is, by definition, exploitative of women, but I feel like even the most sex-positive feminist would agree that there should be more to educating boys about sex than showing them nudie pics. Maybe Mel could have, for example, started by teaching David about consent, because that's a concept that one-third of college-aged men still don't get, twenty-three years later.

Understood and thanks for the response. I do want to understand where certain viewpoints come from because a lot of the time I just never see it from that viewpoint. I still don't take it as seriously but I also see how comments like that can be systematic of other issues and themes that really aren't funny if that makes sense.

[Tara Ariano]

That's all I can hope for! Who knew this stupid show and particularly stupid episode could lead to an interesting exchange of ideas.

[Racj82]

That's all I can hope for! Who knew this stupid show and particularly stupid episode could lead to an interesting exchange of ideas.

Ha, I sure didn't. I think a lot of it has to do with language and ideals that have taken on a whole new definition over time. Like a person of authority telling the guy (Brandon) to basically handle Andrea looks so poor and I'll conceived now. Back then, I don't think most people would have thought twice about how that looks. Also, some things never change like the talk about sex education in schools.

[AndySmith]

I dunno, in the case of Nat, it isn't just about whether assuming she'd be attacked vs. making her own choice. Most men, whether we want to admit it or not, tend to be overprotective towards female members of our family. Whether it be our daughters, sisters, or even cousins, we want to imagine them as pure virgins until they get married, so it isn't just about being attacked...we don't even want them to choose to do it till after they say "I do".

 

Yes, its a sexist, hypocritical double standard that reeks of Jim Walsh at his worst. But it is what it is. Then again, even if I was a dad, I definitely wouldn't fist bump my teenage son if I found out he had sex a few doors down from mine.

[Qoass]

This is a fun way to see how quickly how much has changed.

 

And what hasn't.

[MissEwa]

Was there another fairly similar episode later on? Maybe with Rose O'Donnell? That's what I thought this was at first and then realized how wrong I was.

That's next season, when Brandon is with Nicki and they end up on her TV show or something, and Donna is considering changing her mind and having sex with David but then she doesn't because AIDS, maybe? It's like they were obligated to do a sex-could-kill-you episode every year. 

Is it next summer Andrea goes out with that Republican and Brandon gets jealous/weird/brays? It was stupid and awful but it's good to know she'll get a love interest at some point, even if it's for one episode. 

[Jmallory]

Hmmm...Donna picking up the condom David dropped. She'll be picking up another condom from David in a couple seasons LOL!

[SoupThrower]

I remember recalling Kelly making a point that people would use the condoms to make balloons. I would so do that. 

[heshy]

Is it not obvious why Dylan doesn't want Brenda's sex diary published? She talks about his weird penis.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Now I've barfed myself inside out.

 

 

AVENGE MEEE TARAAAAAAAAAAA