S11.E04: Baby

[SueB]

AwesomeO...

1) I remember 'enthusiastic' in Heart but missed bite-y. Clearly I need to re-watch! I do like Heart, just didn't remember the biting. But, it makes sense.

2) ITA, Dean's interest in Sam's love life is a sign of them being more comfortable around each other. I like that.

3) Fair point on trucker showers. It was the same clothing that makes me suspicious. Although Dean DID refers to a 'whore's bath' in S9 (terrible name!, we used to refer to a sink bath as a 'spit and a whisper'), so they could have done that as well. Clearly they are in and out of FBI gear somewhere. Still, the clothing got some wear.

[AwesomO4000]

3) Fair point on trucker showers. It was the same clothing that makes me suspicious. Although Dean DID refers to a 'whore's bath' in S9 (terrible name!, we used to refer to a sink bath as a 'spit and a whisper'), so they could have done that as well. Clearly they are in and out of FBI gear somewhere. Still, the clothing got some wear.

 

Agreed. Apparently they did not pack judiciously, though hopefully they at least packed clean underwear? I can see not packing extra jeans - those are bulkier and can get a couple days wear at least (Mine get at least two before they hit the wash) - but with shirts, especially considering how messy their job can be, they should really have extras. It would be kinda hard to walk around and not attract attention if there was blood and guts stains on your shirt. I guess their excuse was "It's probably nothing," so they weren't expecting to have to do much. As Dean might say though "Rookie move."

[SueB]

Agreed. Apparently they did not pack judiciously, though hopefully they at least packed clean underwear? I can see not packing extra jeans - those are bulkier and can get a couple days wear at least (Mine get at least two before they hit the wash) - but with shirts, especially considering how messy their job can be, they should really have extras. It would be kinda hard to walk around and not attract attention if there was blood and guts stains on your shirt. I guess their excuse was "It's probably nothing," so they weren't expecting to have to do much. As Dean might say though "Rookie move."

As Dean was talking to the soccer-mom-ghoulpire I noticed how bloody his hand was as well as his jacket.  Of course it occurred to me: he needs to wash that out! It's going to be a pain if it sets too long.

[catrox14]

You know all these points about Dean and Sam not showering.

Dean IS kind of a neat freak except when he was demon!Dean. It's kind of weird that he would not clean off baby like right away.

For the personal grooming. I'm gonna just assume he washed his corners in the bathroom at the roadhouse and Sam washed his in the diner before getting laid in Deans car.

Hmmm there have been so many peculiar slightly askance things/behaviors in these first 4 episodes. I'm sticking with my "Something is Rotten in Denmark" theory. And I'm now adding Sam to the pod. I'm probably wrong. We shall see.

[catrox14]

Not sure why that double posted. SORRY

Edited November 4, 2015 by catrox14

[7kstar]

Thinking about some things.  Sam hasn't told Dean about the Reaper's message.  He did come clean about getting infected, but Sam knows now that if he dies, he will NOT go to heaven or hell.  Therefore I bring this theory.

 

Dean thinking he was going to hell in Season 3, let loose and did all the things he wanted to do, a bucket list of sorts.  Sam is now having his own bucket list.  Why not enjoy time spent with someone hot and without strings attached.  So in my head, he knows that Dean would approve of him going for it, so why not do it in the car.  Dean responds "with that's my boy" so he knows that everything is okay...for now.

 

the clothes, well that is like the mystery cream that heals all wounds.  The magical spot cleaner that gets out all stains.  In our world it would never happen, but they don't live in full reality.  So the magical bag that has extra whatever they need pops up at the most convenient times. 

 

Shame we can't have one of those.  :)

[catrox14]

 

Dean thinking he was going to hell in Season 3, let loose and did all the things he wanted to do, a bucket list of sorts.  Sam is now having his own bucket list.  Why not enjoy time spent with someone hot and without strings attached.  So in my head, he knows that Dean would approve of him going for it, so why not do it in the car.  Dean responds "with that's my boy" so he knows that everything is okay...for now.

 

Thanks for answering my question about whether Sam told Dean about Billie I asked upthread.

 

 

For all the talk about Sam being honest, how can he not tell Dean about the one thing they both need to know? I mean Sam isn't the only one who can be sent to the Empty.  That's weird.

[7kstar]

Well we haven't heard Sam tell Dean...so TPTB can change it as the mood strikes them but for now Dean doesn't know.

 

Of course he can't tell Dean. I mean we have to have the angst factor later...it's just how this show rolls.  Since I expect it now...I won't get mad later. 

 

Not a spoiler, just a spec based on past seasons.  They have the angst factor every season since season 3.  Maybe 1-2 is the only ones they haven't but even that is subjective.  :)

[catrox14]

Well we haven't heard Sam tell Dean...so TPTB can change it as the mood strikes them but for now Dean doesn't know.

 

Of course he can't tell Dean. I mean we have to have the angst factor later...it's just how this show rolls.  Since I expect it now...I won't get mad later. 

 

Not a spoiler, just a spec based on past seasons.  They have the angst factor every season since season 3.  Maybe 1-2 is the only ones they haven't but even that is subjective.  :)

 

My point was really more that for all the "Yay, Sammy was honest!" eh....he left out a pretty big thing.

 

I don't believe TPTB would have Sam tell Dean about Billie's message off screen especially since Billie's threat exists because Dean killed Death. For all the contrived writing this show does, they generally show us that kind of conversation.

 

Like what if Dean is faced with either Sam dying again or his own death, and instead of making a deal or whatever, he accepts Sam's death because he thinks thinks he'll see him again in Heaven or even Hell, but NOPE Sam's in the Empty and Dean will never see him again.  Or vice versa.  It might even help for Dean to know about the Empty as part of a solution for the Darkness.  Hell, maybe the Empty is where Death was going to send Dean with the Mark.

[SueB]

Sam's trying to get them to stop putting the other brother before 'saving people'. Having experienced that uncontrollable drive himself last year, perhaps he's trying to avoid giving Dean another motivation to 'Save Sammy'.

[mertensia]

Sam's trying to get them to stop putting the other brother before 'saving people'. Having experienced that uncontrollable drive himself last year, perhaps he's trying to avoid giving Dean another motivation to 'Save Sammy'.

That's an excellent point.

[catrox14]

Sam's trying to get them to stop putting the other brother before 'saving people'. Having experienced that uncontrollable drive himself last year, perhaps he's trying to avoid giving Dean another motivation to 'Save Sammy'.

Excellent thought but I do hope you're wrong because that would make Sam quite the hypocrite considering the entire reason Sam was angry with and hurt by Dean in s9, and why he distanced himself from Dean, was because Dean didn't respect his agency about dying. So now Sam would be doing the same thing by not telling Dean about this. Dean deserves to know what fate awaits them and the threat Billie has leveled against them.

Taking the rest of my thoughts to the spec thread

Edited November 1, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

I think it's understandable... but that doesn't give him a free pass in my book. It seems like "hypocrite" is a worse crime in our culture than murderer (I swear I'm not picking on you catrox, it's just something I've noticed over the years -- I think it's a Watergate thing....).  I think Sam's already admitted to being a hypocrite when he said "I lied" as he was talking with dying Dean at the end of S9.

 

So...in my book, hypocrite or not... I get WHY he's doing it.  I'd rather he didn't but to paraphrase Dean from S5 'I ain't him and I ain't in his shoes'.  Now if I remotely thought Dean would change his own risk profile (i.e. do things to avoid his own death, given the "empty" threat --- oh hey, interesting pun!), then I'd be all over Sam for putting Dean's existence at risk.  But IMO, Dean's not going to change the way he acts and I think Sam knows that.  In fact, Dean may think "the Empty" was where Death was taking him before he killed Death in the first place. So, from a Dean's safety POV....I get the decision to withhold (IF, in fact, Sam hasn't told him... we are not 100% on this IMO).  Doesn't mean it's "okay" but I understand why Sam might choose this route.  And, I really don't care if he's a hypocrite -- they've done worse.  

[catrox14]

My point was not remotely about the nature of hypocrisy or philosophy of hypocrisy or whether being a hypocrite is worse than murder. 

 

On second thought, I won't even put Sam's "I lied" into the hypocrisy category because I figured that was him just learning the lesson that letting someone you love die is not as straightforward or easy as he thought. But I will put Sam's actions in s10 into the hypocrisy category because he went behind Dean's back to free Dean of the Mark. He made choices for Dean without Dean even being aware of it just like Dean did with Sam in s9

 

But this season thus far, the show seems to be telling us that the boys lying to each other and making choices for each other without consulting the other one was/is  a bad thing and that the boys are more united than ever and are forthcoming with important information that the other one needs to know like Dean meeting the Darkness, and Sam having a vision of John

 

So for me there is no logical reason for Sam to not tell Dean that they are BOTH going to face the same horrible end of being sent to the Empty when they die. At this point regardless of Sam's reasoning he is being a hypocrite.  I would be saying the same thing if the roles were reversed.

Edited November 1, 2015 by catrox14

[7kstar]

My point was not remotely about the nature of hypocrisy or philosophy of hypocrisy or whether being a hypocrite is worse than murder. 

 

But this season thus far, the show seems to be telling us that the boys lying to each other and making choices for each other without consulting the other one was/is  a bad thing and that the boys are more united than ever and are forthcoming with important information that the other one needs to know like Dean meeting the Darkness, and Sam having a vision of John

 

So for me there is no logical reason for Sam to not tell Dean that they are BOTH going to face the same horrible end of being sent to the Empty when they die. At this point regardless of Sam's reasoning he is being a hypocrite.  I would be saying the same thing if the roles were reversed.

Dean is hiding the issue of what the Darkness said to Sam.  He's not saying everything but that's his character and he's still has the urge to do whatever he can to save Sam.  I don't think that will ever change, it's a lesson he learned at age 4.

 

Sam may or may not be hiding what Billie said.  *couldn't remember the reaper's name."  But Sam has stated his real issue.  That we need to save people.  When did we start putting ourselves over others. 

 

To a degree it's a mute point about Sam telling Dean IMO.  Since Dean faced death in this ep.  He could have died but he wouldn't have changed anything he did in this ep.  His natural instinct is to fight for his life unless giving his life would save someone else...Sam.  He fought, to save the woman trying to kill him, to save Sam and to stop the monster from killing more.  He fights with every skill he has, and he showed that in this ep.  Even if some of the methods were gross or ewwww.

 

I think the point is for Sam and Dean to struggle with the issue of saving people over each other.  The cool part is they have a third player, "Baby the car".  lol. 

 

I think the thing I admire about this ep, is the creative task they did to give this story line.  It wasn't hokey and played for laughs.  Had some interesting set ups even if it failed at times. 

 

But to be creative you have to take risks and this is the show I started watching even though I hate horror.  I still hate horror.  I'm not expecting DEEP story telling here.  So I'm enjoying it more.  I think they deserve kudos for the concept and taking new risks in the 11th season.  It's why Jared & Jensen are willing to keep working with this show.

 

It also so their love for the fans.  You can't please everyone, period.  But I think on the whole I liked it.  :)

[SueB]

So for me there is no logical reason for Sam to not tell Dean that they are BOTH going to face the same horrible end of being sent to the Empty when they die. At this point regardless of Sam's reasoning he is being a hypocrite.  I would be saying the same thing if the roles were reversed.

My comment was essentially that they are both hypocrites. And kinda often.  Like Dean giving advise to Cas about how to let things go, and Cas asking him if that's what HE does... Dean's response was it was the opposite of what he does, but he's not a good example.  Sam knows dealing with witches is STUPID, but he does it anyway out of desperation.  He'd lecture anyone else to not get involved with Rowena.  Hypocrite.  

 

For this particular offense ... he hasn't actually made a statement regarding "let's keep no secrets".  It's a hot button issue between them,  he KNOWS it's not what he should do, but he commits the lie of omission all the time. And rationalizes it in whatever way he needs to. Dean does the same.  Being "bound" to the Darkness is a big deal, he hasn't shared that yet.

 

I'm not saying it's right - I'm saying it's "par".

Edited November 1, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

Of course, Dean is a hypocrite. I didn't mention it because I figured it went without saying. It's a known known. LOL

But Dean's past hypocrisies doesn't excuse Sam's no more than Sam's excuses Dean's.

Seems to me they are just setting up some dumb fight between Sam and Dean.

[DittyDotDot]

When haven't they ever been setting up a dumb fight between Sam and Dean?

[catrox14]

When haven't they ever been setting up a dumb fight between Sam and Dean?

Well this is true but I guess I was just hoping that the whole "Brother United" against the Darkness or whatever would mean no dumb fights created because they were keeping really important things from each other.

I'm not entirely sure Dean even remembers what the Darkness said about being bound to him. That would a good thing to know. But hey maybe Sam doesn't remember his conversation with Billie either.

[mertensia]

I'm not entirely sure Dean even remembers what the Darkness said about being bound to him. That would a good thing to know. But hey maybe Sam doesn't remember his conversation with Billie either.

I think that either is a possibility.

I also think at some level both would welcome oblivion.

[catrox14]

I think that either is a possibility.

I also think at some level both would welcome oblivion.

Oh I think they might welcome it BUT Dean does deserve to know it's a 99.9% guaranteed outcome that is what will happen when they die. I can handwave a lot of secret keeping as doing what they think is best for the other one, right or wrong, but now it's Sam playing existential keep away from Dean, essentially. And Dean is a soldier, he always wants to know the facts on the ground even if he eschews them and decides to screw destiny in the face.

[trxr4kids]

I finally had time to watch and I loved it. I too wondered about the windshield wipers being strong enough to remove a severed head but I'm going with Baby is just that badass or custom wipers, whichever. This is the first ep I've wanted to rewatch in awhile.

catrox I kinda handwaved the Seger thing because Dean is older, has had a rough couple of years and that would be reflected in musical preferences. Of course that was until I read your post about Kripke vs Carver's preference.

[mertensia]

Is there a rule that says Dean can't ever change his playlist or enjoy other artists? 'Cause it's not like he's preserved in amber.

[catrox14]

Never mind. nothing to see here. 

Edited November 3, 2015 by catrox14

[Mick Lady]

I think the "in the nick of time" change purse/hair pin/machete was meant to be a wink that Baby takes care of Dean.

My favorite line: "Where's the rest of the beer?"

I thought the whole thing was great.

 

On rewatch, you can clearly see the "valets" girlfriend had a Hello Kitty purse, which annoyed the hell out of me! She's too much of an airhead to find it ironic.

 

The hairpin came from Sam's conquest. She even asked if he had seen it.

[Mick Lady]

Never mind. nothing to see here. 

 

 No catrox! While I think Dean would like Seger, when it comes to "all things Dean" I readily bow to your superior knowledge. 

 

Mick though, would love to go head to head with you. He's such a Deangirl!

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Sam And Dean Will Never Have Normal Relationships For So Many Reasons

The hunter problem is really the least of it.

 

I wish we had an appreciating thread for PTV. Theses recaps are truly hysterical!

[AwesomO4000]

On rewatch, you can clearly see the "valets" girlfriend had a Hello Kitty purse, which annoyed the hell out of me! She's too much of an airhead to find it ironic.

 

The hairpin came from Sam's conquest. She even asked if he had seen it.

 

It can't be that easy to lose a purse in a car (and how could you forget where you put it?), and that hairpin didn't look too difficult to find either... I agree with AuntTora here. Hokey as it is, I think Baby used a little subterfuge to purloin those useful items. She also made sure that knife was able to slip across the mats and under the seat so that it also ended up in the backseat for Dean to use (along with the purse). Or alternate theory: There was some "higher power" exerting influence maybe - like the Darkness looking out for Dean?

[catrox14]

It can't be that easy to lose a purse in a car (and how could you forget where you put it?), and that hairpin didn't look too difficult to find either... I agree with AuntTora here. Hokey as it is, I think Baby used a little subterfuge to purloin those useful items. She also made sure that knife was able to slip across the mats and under the seat so that it also ended up in the backseat for Dean to use (along with the purse). Or alternate theory: There was some "higher power" exerting influence maybe - like the Darkness looking out for Dean?

It's easy to lose things under a big seat like that especially when the driver is turning donuts. Stuff slides around. They were teenagers trying to not get busted so they didn't take time to look for it.

I'll be really annoyed if it's ever revealed that Dean only survived because Baby suddenly had magical power or the Darkness helped save Dean here. I mean that kind of throws away Deans own ability to survive. Dean is clever and resourceful and has a history of picking cuffs. He found the hairpin, just like he saw the paperclip in s1 and used the antenna from the sheriff's car in the benders to pick cuffs. He specifically looked for pennies because he remembered what Sam and Cas said about the pennies.

Edited November 3, 2015 by catrox14

[mertensia]

She was-I think- sitting on her hairpin. As for the purse- it slid under the seat and she was either in too much of a hurry to think of it or didn't want to grope for it.

Edited November 3, 2015 by mertensia

[SueB]

It's easy to lose things under a big seat like that especially when the driver is turning donuts. Stuff slides around. They were teenagers trying to not get busted so they didn't take time to look for it.

I'll be really annoyed if it's ever revealed that Dean only survived because Baby suddenly had magical power or the Darkness helped save Dean here. I mean that kind of throws away Deans own ability to survive. Dean is clever and resourceful and has a history of picking cuffs. He found the hairpin, just like he saw the paperclip in s1 and used the antenna from the sheriff's car in the benders to pick cuffs. He specifically looked for pennies because he remembered what Sam and Cas said about the pennies.

Dean (and Sam) remind me of Buffy.  Buffy made of point of using whatever was handy right at that moment.  Like in S9 when Dean threw a pot at one demon and wrapped a towel around another Demon's hands to throw her into the wall.  Resourceful.  If he hadn't found the hairpin, he'd have scrounged around for something else. He's usually armed with lockpicks (per The End).  The pennies was sheer dumb luck (say it like McGonagle!) that the purse was there ... but it was Dean smarts to not bother looking for a 1982 penny.  Put enough regular pennies in and voila!, you have sufficient copper.  

 

That's my theory.  But I have no problem with the characterization that Baby takes care of them.  However, the chances of the details of this fight coming up again are slim and none IMO.  It's just how the Winchester roll.  

[AwesomO4000]

It's easy to lose things under a big seat like that especially when the driver is turning donuts. Stuff slides around. They were teenagers trying to not get busted so they didn't take time to look for it.

 

You're right. My "purses" are more like bags, generally picked up at craft fairs, usually made of recycled jeans or some other rather obvious and very non-slippery material, and are fairly good-sized. They pretty much stay where I put them in the car no matter what happens, so I tend to forget that normal purses do tend to move and slip around under conditions that wouldn't budge mine.

 

I'll be really annoyed if it's ever revealed that Dean only survived because Baby suddenly had magical power or the Darkness helped save Dean here. I mean that kind of throws away Deans own ability to survive. Dean is clever and resourceful and has a history of picking cuffs. He found the hairpin, just like he saw the paperclip in s1 and used the antenna from the sheriff's car in the benders to pick cuffs. He specifically looked for pennies because he remembered what Sam and Cas said about the pennies.

I'm not married to either theory here.

 

However, I don't think either one takes away from Dean's ability to survive or his resourcefulness. Dean and Sam rely on coincidences and happenstances all the time and on each other (to throw each other weapons, create distractions for each other, etc.) Just because something is there doesn't mean just any person would've been able to use it. As SueB said, the things were convenient, but Dean would've likely found something else anyway. So the thought of Baby or the Darkness trying to help/protect Dean is interesting (to me anyway - especially if it's the Darkness), but I didn't mean to even imply that Dean survived only because of interference from an outside source. Besides I kind of like the thought of Baby maybe getting a little revenge on the teenagers who took her out and made her do donuts. In the dust. While taking selfies no less.

Edited November 3, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

 

Besides I kind of like the thought of Baby maybe getting a little revenge on the teenagers who took her out and made her do donuts. In the dust. While taking selfies no less.

 

Sure many things are coincidence and happenstance, but not divine intervention by the car itself. I guess I'm just really against the idea that the Impala is more than an inanimate object that Dean loves and cherishes and when not a demon, cares for. LOL 

 

I can think of her like she's Dean's 'spirit animal' if you will, but not actually a sentient or spiritual being. Or horror of horrors, as I've read speculation before that Baby is actually God. That would just be the worst thing ever, IMO.

[Demented Daisy]

Sure many things are coincidence and happenstance, but not divine intervention by the car itself. I guess I'm just really against the idea that the Impala is more than an inanimate object that Dean loves and cherishes and when not a demon, cares for. LOL 

 

I can think of her like she's Dean's 'spirit animal' if you will, but not actually a sentient or spiritual being. Or horror of horrors, as I've read speculation before that Baby is actually God. That would just be the worst thing ever, IMO.

 

You've changed your tune since July.  When I first speculated that God had blessed the Impala (or maybe possessed it), you said that you'd be on board with the idea of the Impala actually being God.  

 

Why would it be the worst thing ever now?

[catrox14]

You've changed your tune since July.  When I first speculated that God had blessed the Impala (or maybe possessed it), you said that you'd be on board with the idea of the Impala actually being God.  

 

Why would it be the worst thing ever now?

 

Weird. I didn't remember that so I went back and looked and I see what I posted.

 

I find it out of character for me to have to have agreed with that ever, but because I did, I will attribute it to temporary insanity or more likely a bit o fposting whilst imbibing due to grief and family stresses after my Mom's death. Kind of kidding but kind of not.  No idea why I would have gotten on board with that. Maybe I was just being silly. 

 

So let me be clear, I don't want Baby to be God. Feel free to note this day for posterity.

[Demented Daisy]

But that still doesn't explain why it would be the worst thing ever.

[catrox14]

But that still doesn't explain why it would be the worst thing ever.

 

Because that's just my opinion? I like Baby just being the coolest car in the world, non - Mustang division.

 

Swan Song came very close to personifying Baby by saying it was the most important object in the universe which I didn't like even if I think the Impala is the 3rd greatest inanimate object on a TV show. For me, making it God would ruin it as just a super cool inanimate object as a main character in a show. Just not something I would ever want to see happen. I hated the 'Doctor's Wife' and the personifying of the TARDIS on Doctor Who. I would equally dislike that happening with the Impala.

[Mick Lady]

Because that's just my opinion? I like Baby just being the coolest car in the world, non - Mustang division.

 

Swan Song came very close to personifying Baby by saying it was the most important object in the universe which I didn't like even if I think the Impala is the 3rd greatest inanimate object on a TV show. For me, making it God would ruin it as just a super cool inanimate object as a main character in a show. Just not something I would ever want to see happen. I hated the 'Doctor's Wife' and the personifying of the TARDIS on Doctor Who. I would equally dislike that happening with the Impala.

 

I too would hate for the Impala to be anything other than a car. Plus, I'm too invested in Chuck being God.

 

Mick would fight you on the Mustang part though. He loves Chevys above all, except for Harleys. Those he believes are God!

[Myrelle]

The opening teaser scene was amazing in this one-a beaten and bloody Dean handcuffed and unconscious on the backseat of the Impala-yeah, that sure sucked me in. But I found most of the brother interactions to be more rote than anything else-as if Thompson was going down a checklist-and that kept them from packing any real punch in the emotional dept. for me. I think my favorite part of them was Piper's come-hither attitude with Dean after she'd slept with Sam.  Heh. "Who are you?" indeed...

 

I thought the jerk/bitch moment was cringe-worthy because of it's obvious placement for obvious fan-servicing reasons. But this IS Thompson so this kind of stuff is to be expected, I suppose. Same with Sam's "We are home". comment at the end. Unnecessary and cheesy, IMO.

 

LOVED! BAMF!Dean, though. He made this episode for me once we got by the brother stuff and Sam's vision without too much damage being inflicted on the  main storyline. According to the tell, Dean remains an equal part of the myth-arc-for now anyway.

 

But ActionDean has always been one of my favorite things about this show and were we ever treated to him in this one! The fight scenes were amazing. Down and dirty, no-holds-barred street fighting at it's best. The final kill was brutal, and Dean's "I'm so sorry, Baby" was the capper. Loved that. And the head int he cooler and the windshield wiper clean of the severed head was perfect. Those were the kind of vintage Supernatural moments that felt right and organic to me in this one. The view from the car was a bit disconcerting for me. I wanted to actually get out and go with Dean when he was first attacked by the deputy("I guess I did shoot the deputy!" -Hee!). I hated the joy ride with the teens. Thompson and his teen thing again, though.

 

So Baby watches over them and takes care of them as best as she can. Hope that they weren't trying to tell us that she's a parallel to God in the SPN universe. I've seen that thought tossed around out there, and frankly, God being equal to a powerless, inanimate object-albeit a very beloved one-does absolutely nothing for me.

 

All in all, not as bad as I thought it was going to be and as I said, some great Dean stuff in this one. Oh, which reminds me, I loved that he knew about the quote and that he shoved all the change down the baddie's throat. SmartDean in this one too. I can see why Jensen loved this episode.

[Partly]

I wasn't going to post anything because, well, WEDNESDAY.  But I have some thinky thoughts on this ep...

 

I don't find it odd at all that Dean's musical base (what he likes, what he has tapes of and what he quotes) extends beyond Zeppelin or the metal-genres.  Dean has always been much more than his appearance will lead people to believe.  Even Sam, after all the years spent with Dean, is occasionally surprised by what Dean knows.  And not because Sam thinks Dean is stupid, because he doesn't, but rather because what Dean says isn't something that you would think Dean would know.  How often in the series have we heard Dean say "I read!", in defense of knowing something that surprised other people?  But it's not just what he reads. It's watching things like Dr. Sexy, MD.  It's Dean watching a Telanovela. It's Dean knowing what is in the Bible and what isn't. It's Dean making a EMF detector out of a Walkman.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if Dean knew how to polka, could quote a Conway Twitter song or read all the Harry Potter books.  

 

It's Dean.  He does whatever he wants and doesn't care whether he, by stereotype, should or shouldn't.  

 

 

I thought the jerk/bitch moment was cringe-worthy because of it's obvious placement for obvious fan-servicing reasons.

 

I saw this differently.  What I saw was the very start of the jerk/bitch moment.  See, years ago, when Dean tucked Sammy in bed he'd always say "love you".  Because that's what little kids (especially little boys who have lost so much and care so much) say.  But then, as Sammy got older and wanted to be Sam and to stop all that mushy stuff (and I'm sure it was Sam who started it), they couldn't say "love you" anymore.  It's a guy thing.  So, one night, when Dean was making "Sam" go to bed, Sam cut off Dean's "love you" with a "Night, Jerk" and Dean responded "Night, Bitch".  They stared at each other for a second and then when to sleep, because they both knew what they meant and now they could say it whenever they wanted to.  That moment was perfect because it probably happened the first time in that very car.

 

I love how they both sang the modified lyrics to Night Moves to make it fit their lives. I come from a family who does that all the time.  There are certain songs that I can no long sing the way they are written.   I also think that Dean called Sam "Samuel" because I'm sure that once Sam did first lose his virginity, Dean was all "Look at how little Sammy has grown up, let's call him Samuel!".  A perfect way to continually tease Sam without anyone actually knowing what it meant. Kinda a jerk/bitch moment.  And I would bet everything I have that Sam lost his virginity in the back of the car.

 

Sam's comment at the end about already being home:  I don't think he meant the car, per se.  Rather, I believe he meant him and Dean, fighting the good fight, saving people, working together and trusting that the other would work to the same goal.  That's home.  As it should be.

[Mulva]

I really enjoyed this episode. I liked that the focus was on the boys, not boring angel politics.

[mertensia]

I really enjoyed this episode. I liked that the focus was on the boys, not boring angel politics.

I agree. Angel politics on this show is dull.

[Partly]

I agree. Angel politics on this show is dull.

 

I would be happy to do away with both the Heaven and Hell politics. They are opposite sides of the same boring coin. The only time I find them interesting is when they are interacting with the boys.

[catrox14]

Since I am largely the one questioning the importance placed on Bob Seger, I need to clear up some things lest anyone think that I think Dean is incapable of growth and change or that I don't get how complicated Dean really is,because I do. I've written about how layered and complex he is. Many times.

I never said nor implied that Dean would not have broader musical taste than Zeppelin. That would be foolish of me because we have seen him onscreen listen to a variety of artists including once, and maybe twice, Bob Seger.

What I am questioning and don't buy or simply don't like is the IMO sudden shift via dialogue that now Dean finds everything to be a Bob Seger song. It's inorganic character change, in my opinion.

Generally this show is relatively good about showing us either in dialogue or with acting that Dean or Sam have changed. At some point we get a revelation vs a retcon at least with Kripke we generally did (trickster to Gabriel notwithstanding) . But Carver is bad about not doing that re s8 Sam.

If they had been planting seeds along the way, like having Dean quote Seger or talk about about his songs like he has other bands or artists then I would buy into the shift better. I don't count the show using Bob Seger as a narrator/score of a scene to substitute for actual organic character growth. IMO it's lazy writing.

That said, I'm filing this away in my "something is rotten in Denmark" file of pod!Dean behavior. YMMV.

[Partly]

I think My Mileage Varies because I am a non-literal person.  For example, when if someone would say "I'll be over with a couple of friends" I wouldn't be surprised if they showed up with four instead of two.  

 

So when Sam goes "Is everything a Bob Seger song to you?" and Dean says "Yes." I don't take that as a repudiation of anything that happened before or an indication of how things will be from this point on.  Rather, it's just a reaction for how things are going at the moment. I saw no real importance on the choice of song or artist except that it fit the moment.  Dean would seize that moment and rib Sam for all it's worth.

 

But like I said, I'm not literal.  And I love writing backstory in my head.  So when the boys were singing the song with personalized lyrics it made so much sense to me because I could see them doing that all the time as kids.  I love the concept of Dean choosing some artist or group (different ones for different situations) and quoting the lyrics at "Sammy" just to get a rise out of him.  And I will lay you odds that Dean made up lyrics to songs in order to fit their lives. 

 

On a more personal note: I don't want any pod people anymore. I don't want soulless or possessed or "marked" up.  I want Dean and Sam to be Dean and Sam.  I want their choices to be their choices and not caused by "others".  So I'm probably not looking at the characters the same way, either, because I don't want pod!Anybody.

 

It's all good, though, because it's boring when we all think alike. 

[Aeryn13]

 

So when Sam goes "Is everything a Bob Seger song to you?" and Dean says "Yes." I don't take that as a repudiation of anything that happened before or an indication of how things will be from this point on.

 

I think it will play no role whatsoever in upcoming episodes because apart from having maybe a loosely thought out idea for a main storyline, each writer pretty much does what they please. For example, Dean got to have smart!moments here but it wouldn`t be surprising at all to me if two episodes down the line he suddenly doesn`t even know who Aesop IS. Simply because there is no real communication or oversight.

 

The Seger thing in this episode, I believe Thompson used it situationally, i.e. it fit well into his dialogue but he wrote it more like an ongoing tic. Which is indeed problematic if a show has been going on for more than ten years and you want to give the character new shticks suddenly.

 

In itself I would have no problem with it but if someone asks a question like "is everything a Bob Seger song to you" and the other person answers with "yes", to me that is a running gag motive. It`s a version of "OMG, why do you ALWAYS have to go there?" Like, you have already heard variations of this lots of times in the past. It`s an old hat between the characters. It is ill-fitting dialogue for a concept like "and this is how it is for this one week/day/hunt".

 

I hate the stupid eating shtick for Dean with a fiery passion but it IS an established one. Bobby became so one-note with his "idjits" and "balls" but equally a well-established theme. If Bobby had suddenly started using a new insult, equal but not heard of before and Dean and Sam had gone "why does he always call us *insert new insult word*", it would have been just as odd. .

 

Dean`s musical taste has been roughly established and if any band is HIS band it`s probably Metallica. It`s just that Robbie Thompson didn`t find songs and lyrics that readily fit into the dialogue he wanted. So he used a new artist, that isn`t out of the question for Dean but has never been part of a shtick before. And then gave it running gag dialogue. It`s just somewhat lazy. Either you have a running gag or the flavour du jour. Both require somewhat different dialogue tweaks.  

Edited November 4, 2015 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

 

On a more personal note: I don't want any pod people anymore. I don't want soulless or possessed or "marked" up.  I want Dean and Sam to be Dean and Sam.  I want their choices to be their choices and not caused by "others".  So I'm probably not looking at the characters the same way, either, because I don't want pod!Anybody.

 

I'm not a particularly "literal" person myself, meaning I don't take everything literally. I'm pretty good with nuance and sarcasm. I mean there is a reason I was quite literally named "Most Sarcastic" in high school (not even kidding LOL). 

 

But in this case, I didn't pick up on any cues from Dean that he was being sarcastic. He was trying to be funny but not sarcastic. Heck, I didn't really even understand why Sam would really ask Dean that odd question either.  But that's just me.

 

Basically all I'm asking for is organic character growth. It's not that hard, show! Just like with Sam in s8.  WTF? Sam not looking for Dean or Kevin? NOPE. That never sat right with me, and it was used to spin off an entire season of shit between Dean and Sam. 

 

As to the pod!people it annoys me because the showrunners and actors have been selling this "neither brother is afflicted with anything" but then I think Dean being bound to  the Darkness is an  "affliction" for lack of a better word, so that went out the window in the first 30 seconds of the season LOL.

 

That's why all of these weird character beats for Dean mostly are driving me crazy. I realize many people are not seeing what I'm seeing but I feel like things are just off with Dean and the same with Sam but less so. 

 

 

 

The Seger thing in this episode, I believe Thompson used it situationally, i.e. it fit well into his dialogue but he wrote it more like an ongoing tic. Which is indeed problematic if a show has been going on for more than ten years and you want to give the character new shticks suddenly.

 

THIS. Yes, this is what I have been trying to say but you said it much more succinctly.

 

Edited November 4, 2015 by catrox14

[Myrelle]

IMO, Dean can think that life is a Bob Seger song while retaining the additional thought that his favorite song could still be a tie between Zeppelin's Ramble On and Travelling Riverside Blues. I can see Dean feeling that way-even though I actually think that, as was pointed out earlier by someone upthread, it's really just reflections of the two different showrunners' favorite artists more than anything else. That said, I didn't care for the character dissonance that it created either-and likely all because Carver just had to let us know that Bob Seger is his fave. Showrunner ego again. Love it or hate it, I guess we're never going to get away from it no matter how many times they change them up-not on this show. Or so it seems to me.

[DittyDotDot]

I wouldn't be surprised if Thompson didn't have a specific song in mind when he wrote the Seger line. What I mean is, sometimes they want to use a particular song and can't get the rights to it. Maybe he planned for a Zepplin song or something but they either couldn't afford it or get the rights to it?

 

Perhaps a better line might have been, "Is everything a classic rock song to you?"

[Aeryn13]

 

Perhaps a better line might have been, "Is everything a classic rock song to you?"

 

That would certainly have fit better with the running gag/established trait motive. 

 

Carver possibly putting his favourite singer in? Eh. He took over the show in its 8th year when the characters and all their recurring themes were already beyond established. So he should either have tried to smuggle that in during Season 3 when he first joined as writer or create a new character (or a new show) from scratch where he can give characters themes that he likes. Dean and Sam on SPN are a million years too late basically.

[Partly]

That said, I didn't care for the character dissonance that it created either-and likely all because Carver just had to let us know that Bob Seger is his fave. Showrunner ego again. Love it or hate it, I guess we're never going to get away from it no matter how many times they change them up-not on this show. Or so it seems to me.

 

This is why I don't care what the show runners say.  All of television is as far from "pure art" as you can get; it's really just an amalgamation of what everyone involved thinks BUT the only opinion that matters is what I see on the screen.

 

I try very hard not to let other people's interpretation of the show alter how I see it -- that includes the actors, writers and the show runners.  Until it's on the screen as an absolute statement (as in Dean says: Metal sucks, man!) I just don't care.  Their intention doesn't matter, only the results do.

 

(And, yes, I do realize how far off the rails I am from how most people think about the show.)