S02.E06: Rise Of The Villains: By Fire

[formerlyfreedom]

After Bridgit Pike rejoins her brothers, a new spark of courage ignites within her, as she chooses to take control of her future. Meanwhile, Kringle and Nygma's relationship will take a new step and Penguin and Galavan continue to battle for control of Gotham City's underworld.

 

[Primetimer]

If enough criminals kill each other, that should eventually mean there are only law-abiding citizens left, right?

Read the story

[MisterGlass]

Yikes.  Was this extra dark for Halloween?

[Spartan Girl]

Nygma accidentally murdered Kristin. Hands up if you saw it coming.

Everyone's hand up? Thought so.

I think the novelty has worn off Psycho Bitch Barbara. I'm ready for her to go.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Spartan Girl

[HoodlumSheep]

Well, Nygma was going to murder Kringle at some point.

I felt a little for Selina, but I still can't bring myself to like her. Jim did his best to keep Firefly safe. Firefly brought it upon herself. I'm happy she's alive though. At first I was thinking Lazarus pits (or whatever they're called) but I guess not...

Jim and Lee are still cute.

Butch doesn't deserve all the horrible treatment he's getting.

Lastly, I'm so bummed about the lack of Harvey this season. I know there's a lot of new characters, but still...he and jim were set up to be a dynamic duo in season 1 and now it seems like they hardly interact.

Next week looks intense though.

Glad to see Ivy. I'm surprised she cooperated with Harvey though. after all, he is the one who offed her dad.

Indian Hills? I'm going to have to google that.

Edited October 27, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Pyralis]

Raises hand.

 

By the way Ed, you probably could have saved her with CPR - but your drama flair wouldn't allow for that thought.

[Chaos Theory]

This is why you don't trust Jim Gordon if you are insane, a criminal or a kid. "Sure I'll solve your parents murder." "Sure I'll keep your friend safe." "Sure you can trust me.

Speaking of....I seem to recall hearing about Indian Hills but I don't recall where. Ahhh It is bound to come up again. It is like Arkham far too creepy not to.

And once again Barbara has one scene. She better have one hell of a story arc otherwise the show wasted one hell of a potential for the character.

Poor Ms Kringle. I was actually kinda thinking she would dig crazy killer Nygma for a second but I guess the story works better if he kills her. one step closer to him losing his marbles completely.

I didn't particularly care for Selina at first but she has been growing on me lately. I really enjoyed her in this episode. The mix between not caring and caring too much was subtler then this so usually does.

Jim and Lee are cute but boring.

if it wasn't for bad luck Butch would have no luck at all.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[rue721]

Wow, that was dark.

 

Bridget saw that her pack was leaking lighter fluid, so when she lit up that car, I think she was *trying* to go out in a blaze of glory. Horrifying that she only maimed herself, though, and is now a guinea pig for Wayne Enterprises.

 

Selina is growing on me. How much she cared about Bridget went a long way with me. Also, it's easy to write her off because she's such a bullshitter and is constantly lying. But she was actually the voice of reason in this episode.

 

She's probably right that Jim won't take out "his little friend," too. Penguin is always going to be the lesser of two evils, it seems like. He's really losing it over this situation with his mother. I'm kind of worried that he's going to get her back, but she'll be different or turned against him, and that he'll go completely batshit when that happens. Not that he's not already pretty batshit....but y'know, it's all relative. Speaking of batshit:

 

Poor Butch. He's about to break down. For a second there, I thought he might get killed. I was constantly worried that he'd hit himself in the head with his own mallet and kill himself that way, too.

 

I was taken out of the scene between Nygma and Kringle by how bizarrely she reacted to him telling her that he'd killed her ex. You'd think that she would be terrified and would just try to keep things light until she was able to escape, but she kept yelling at him about being a freak and purposefully provoking him. Not that it was "her fault" that he killed her or anything. It just seemed like an implausible way for anyone to respond.

 

(There's a part of me that's hopeful that Jerome is somehow in IH getting scientifically transformed (somehow) into the Joker. What can I say, I miss him!)

[MisterGlass]

I was hoping to the last that Kristen would not be a victim again.  Sadly, the inevitable won out.

 

Indian Hill was the territory that Falcone accepted as a peace offering from Maroni.  It had a cover as a toxic waste dump.

 

I was glad to see Ivy.  Her willingness to cooperate (for candy) I chalk up to her unbalanced state, perhaps with a pinch of understanding that her Dad was set up by bigger fish.  Or Fish.  I did like the 'ginger to ginger' moment between her and Harvey.  I also agree there has been far too little Harvey this season.  I hope that is because they are working around Donal Logue's schedule and not because they undervalue the role.

 

I was waiting for Jim's acceptance of gray procedures to bite him with the new chief.

 

Poor Butch.  Is he sincere or setting Penguin up?

 

Edited for spelling.

Edited October 27, 2015 by MisterGlass

[Danielg342]

Still haven't seen the episode, but I was curious to see the reaction.

 

Then I saw that Kris Kringle got killed...well, show, as if you couldn't stoop any lower...

 

Chelsea Spack is a fine actress. She deserved better than the pap this show gave her.

[opus]

I think the novelty has worn off Psycho Bitch Barbara. I'm ready for her to go.

And once again Barbara has one scene. She better have one hell of a story arc otherwise the show wasted one hell of a potential for the character.

This is why I'm not tired of Barbara yet. She has to actually have a storyline.

[Chaos Theory]

Then I saw that Kris Kringle got killed...well, show, as if you couldn't stoop any lower...

 

 

Ms. Kringle getting killed is the least surprising thing about the show.  It was only a matter of time before Nygma killed her.   The only thing surprising is that it happened so soon. I figured they had a good few episodes still in them.  Maybe had her genuinely fall deeply madly in love with him before learning the horrible terrible truth,  

Edited October 27, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Welp!

That was unpleasant.

[Lantern7]

Dark episode. The show doesn't have the potential to get turned into fondue like Supergirl (or at least the pilot), but I can see why people would bail out now.

 

Did not see Kristen's death coming. Of course she would recoil from Ed's admission, and of course he'd wind up choking her to death. What a dope. Nothing against the guy playing him, but I hope Ed gets his soon.

 

Also didn't see Firefly surviving. So . . . is Indian Peak the Gotham answer to the Pipeline from The Flash, where freaks of the week can be deposited until the plot calls for them again?

 

Like I said, I'm not good at predicting plot progression. I do see Butch eventually becoming a talking head in a jar, though. Poor dumb bastard.

[paigow]

Everyone's hand up? Thought so.

Butch might be a bit slow for that....What's next for him? The Fugitive reboot?

[immortalfrieza]

Little Miss Firefly had SUICIDALLY INSANE written all over her from the beginning, but her "brothers" are even worse. Newsflash people, when an obviously pissed off person is aiming a flamethrower at you, the reason that person is pissed off, provoking them further is NOT a good idea, nor is just standing there while she's pointing it at you and declaring her intention to kill you. Whatever else Firefly did I was definitely cheering that she did that, if anybody deserves to be burned alive it was those two, them and that sex slave auctioneer. Also, how the hell did the cops know that Firefly was a woman when she was covered completely in fire retardant clothing and carrying bulky equipment?

 

Goodbye Miss Kringle, you've been the catalyst for Nygma's descent into madness and the inevitable result was your death. It probably would not have worked but it would have made Kringle look a lot less stupid if she at least pretended she was in support of what Nygma did that Nymga saw past instead of provoking a murderer more and more. Of course Nygma just sits there weeping instead of trying to perform CPR or anything, how could Nygma be the Riddler if he gets life in prison? Admitting to killing someone to anyone else is a stupid idea no matter the reason, despite all the advances in crime busting tech and police procedure it still remains that a very large percentage of the time murderers would get off scot free if they just kept their mouths shut.

 

Theo's kidnapping of Penguin's mother continues to cause Penguin to lose several dozen more IQ points each episode. What happened to the cunning schemer? Whatever happened to the "when you know what a man loves, you know what can kill him" Magnificent bastard? Trying to get Butch in as a mole was smart, especially with the limb removal, but then being too impatient to give the plan the necessary time to be pulled off was stupid.

Edited October 27, 2015 by immortalfrieza

[Sakura12]

I figured Ngyma would kill Kristen. The villains always need to lose someone they care about to go full villain. 

 

I want Butch to smash Penguins head in with his mallet hand. I know some people didn't like him, but I miss Jerome. He was at least a fun villain. Penguin's shtick is getting old. For the King of Gotham he hasn't done much. 

 

While Firefly was crazy and stupid, I can see why Selina is upset. Jim really needs to stop making promises that he can't keep. He failed Selina and he failed Bruce. I also don't really see how this Jim Gordon is going to be against a masked crusader beating up bad guys in the beginning. This version of Jim Gordon would be cheering him on or joining him. He's basically a dirty cop, beating up people for no reason and helping criminals for favors. 

[Danielg342]

Ms. Kringle getting killed is the least surprising thing about the show. It was only a matter of time before Nygma killed her. The only thing surprising is that it happened so soon. I figured they had a good few episodes still in them. Maybe had her genuinely fall deeply madly in love with him before learning the horrible terrible truth,

Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised, but I was hopeful that Kringle could have actually had something substantive to do. She was just basically brought in so Nygma could kill her and that leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

[foreverevolving]

Did not see Kringler dying.. well not this soon. I was sort of hoping they'll wait it out a season or more, while in the meantime not only showing us she's just as insane as he is, but also building them up as a crazy riddlers loving duo. You know, spice it up a bit, get out of comic canon; i'm sure somewhere in the comics there's been a riddler like female villain, they could have given that identity to Kringler. I think it would have been cool! rather than have Ed go crazy because he killed her. whatever, it's done.

 

Butch has either turned on Penguin or not. I can't decide.

 

mmm I wonder if Fish ended up at Indian Hill? they really hammered up her yes/no coming back last episode, and this episode they revealed this facility and showed someone in a water bath or something.

Also I wonder who the standing woman that we saw.. they kind of lingered on her for a second there, and unlike the rest of the people we passed you actually saw her face.

 

Selina continues to be awesome, and I love how little by little the show chips away her trust of adults and of the the police which will mold her into Catwoman.

 

I hope they have plans for Barb.. cause she has no plot other than being crazy right now and.. while I enjoy crazy barb, i'd like her to have a meatier storyline. come on show you did what Arrow has been refusing to do since season (turn Laurel into a Villain).. make it worthwhile!!

 

Also I am really upset that the Kane family was mentioned last episode but we have yet to meet Katherine ie the future Batwoman, she's about the same age as Bruce.

Edited October 27, 2015 by foreverevolving

[rue721]

Galvan is feeding and housing Gertrude, and that costs money/manpower, so Penguin probably could have found her just by following the money trail. That kind of investigation would have taken a while, but it's *been* a while.

 

I think that counting on Galvan to just randomly spill the beans on her location to Butch is a pretty terrible plan. Even if Butch had successfully gotten into Galvan's inner circle as a mole, why would Galvan need to discuss Penguin's mother with him?

 

The warehouse has got to be a trap. I think that Galvan is probably setting up Penguin and/or Jim to kill Bruce there. Then, Galvan could kill Bruce's killer, and play the hero again. In any case, Galvan is obviously setting up Penguin as his patsy.

 

I want Butch to smash Penguins head in with his mallet hand. I know some people didn't like him, but I miss Jerome. He was at least a fun villain. Penguin's shtick is getting old. For the King of Gotham he hasn't done much. 

 

In my fantasy version of this show, Penguin and Jerome would run the Umbrella Club together. Jerome could book the acts and be MC, and Penguin could continue to run the business end of things. They seem like they'd be a really good team! Both being sociopaths with no interest in dating, and all. And Jerome was genuinely a good showman, imo. (So is Barbara). I liked that magic show.

 

Then we'd have a fun set for the characters to hang out in again, too. I'm sick of Penguin's dirty throne room and everyone else's generic penthouses. Selina's attic is the only good set right now. And obviously, it's pretty limited.

 

mmm I wonder if Fish ended up at Indian Hill? they really hammered up her yes/no coming back last episode, and this episode they revealed this facility and showed someone in a water bath or something.

Also I wonder who the standing woman that we saw.. they kind of lingered on her for a second there, and unlike the rest of the people we passed you actually saw her face.

 

Interesting that you think Fish might have been one of the people that Bridget saw in Indian Hill. I'm pretty convinced that she's coming back, because she's still looming large over the show.

 

I can't wait until everyone knows about that facility and people start breaking out of it. Bruce is going to have a shitfit. So is Cat, once she finds out that Bridget is imprisoned in a Wayne Enterprises facility. (POOR BRIDGET! She's been a prisoner all her life. It's not right). And I'm so curious about who all those characters are. The show cut between inmates too fast on broadcast, but it'll be easier to pause on each one and maybe get more clues about each of them when the episode comes on Hulu tomorrow.

[thuganomics85]

Whelp, that wasn't a surprise.  I was hoping they would surprise me, but nope, Mrs. Kringle was always destined to die, in order to take Nygma down his path to full-blown villain territory.  Nothing to see here, folks.  Just like I'm sure Oswald's mom will die, and that is what will help launch him into the even more ruthless Penguin, that old Bats will end up tangling with.

 

Yeah, even though he wasn't at fault for what Firefly did, Jim just needs to quit making promises of any kind.  He just does not have the ability to keep them at all.  Just give up on that, Gordon.  You are just pissing people off, now.

 

Poor Butch lost his hand for nothing.  Theo totally knew the score.  Butch has now run back to Oswald all beat-up, but I have a feeling that Tabitha now did something to him, and he might be playing Oswald.  Either way, Butch looses.

 

Silly Bruce.  He can't see the threat in front of him, due to young love.  Or maybe he's just too young, and isn't aware of James Frain's reputation of always being the bad guy.

 

I get that with a cast this size, some screen time has to be cut, but the lack of Bullock this season, has not been a good thing at all.

 

Lee being all calm over Selina holding a shotgun to her, was amusing.  At this point, Lee probably prefers that to some of the other encounters she's been having.

[Artsda]

Well wow, wasn't expecting Nygma to kill Kringle so fast. 

 

Loved Lee nonchalantly doing polite talk with the gun pointed at her and Gordon walking in apologizing because it's so normal.

 

Firefly caught herself on fire, Selena can shut up with the blame. If they sent Firefly down there to the basement too could the cop be in there too? 

 

Oh Bruce, run from that family!

[driedfruit]

While I expected Ed to kill Kringle, I didn't expect it'd be so soon. I've been shipping those two a while and hoped she'd be his Harley. Too bad.

 

Glad they didn't just waste Firefly. The nugget about her being dead was interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if she isn't the only character so far presumed dead, but not really. Shady Wayne Corp dealings is up my alley, just wish they'd move Bruce's storyline a bit faster. Wouldn't be a problem on other shows, but Gotham's been on speed this season. And where is Lucius?

 

I've always loved Selina and enjoyed the focus on her in this episode. Good to see her in action, getting closer to that Catwoman persona. Her scene with Lee was great. I see Lee and Gordon as the caretakers and anchors of the series. I hope the runner just let them be together and mundane, because it works for the show. 

 

 

(There's a part of me that's hopeful that Jerome is somehow in IH getting scientifically transformed (somehow) into the Joker. What can I say, I miss him!)

 

He probably is.

The runners already confirmed we'll be seeing Jerome again.

[Milz]

I think Butch was brain-washed again and is now working for Theo. IOW, he's setting Pengy up with the story about Mrs. C. being held in a warehouse.

[Jodithgrace]

I'm kinda glad I opted out of American Horror Story this season. Between Fargo and Gotham, my gore and violence needs are being well met, thank you. Could this show get any darker?

 

That said, I really love Selena Kyle. The actress that plays her is really good, and so pretty! Yes, she is morally ambiguous, as befits a supervillian in training, but she is loyal to those she cares about, and vulnerable because of them Hopefully she will rescue Bruce from the clutches of Silver and her horrible uncle. 

 

Speaking of Galavan, would it really work to almost strangle a congressman in order to get him to support your election to Mayor? It's one thing to have congressmen "in your pocket," with bribes and such, since they can't give you away without exposing themselves. But to do violence to a congressman seems a poor tactic to me. But what do i know..I'm not a villian.

 

Poor Jim..he is always in a lose lose situation. How on earth does he ever manage to become police commissioner?

 

Butch is obviously setting up Penguin. "Nothing undoes conditioning like a good whipping, " B.F. Skinner

[Gregg247]

I felt very sorry for Brigit, even after she (accidently) killed the cop.  She was so sweet that I was hoping for a happy ending for her....I apparently forgot what show I was watching.

 

The Penguin's plan was pitiful.  How brainwashed is Butch that he's not able to break out of it, even when he gets his hand cut off?!?

 

I think Penguin is going to save his Mom and then kill her, Keyser Soze style, so no one else will ever have that kind of control over him again.

[darkestboy]

Good episode. The reveal of Bridgit surviving her burning was a nice one, along with the Indian Hill reminder. I had actually forgotten about that place.

 

I liked Selina wanting to help out Bridgit in this episode even though she became disillusioned by Gordon by the end of this one.

 

They're setting up a future conflict with Gordon/Barnes pretty nicely too. Loved Bullock and Ivy's brief scene as well.

 

They need to give Tabitha something other than beating men up and making snide comments especially given that Theo has been better characterised by comparison.

 

It really doesn't pay to be Butch, does it?

 

Silver's clearly a willing pawn with the Galavans campaign against Bruce or she feels like she's in on it.

 

Nygma killing Kringle is something I wish they hadn't done, 8/10

[Jediknight]

I know it's been multiple episodes in, but I've just got to say Tabitha is gorgeous, of course that's kind of offset by the fact she'd decapitate you.

 

Love this Indian Hill thing, because it means we could see the return of Jerome.

 

And Penguin, really?  You're going to reclaim your mother with an army, and you don't have Victor there?

[Writing Wrongs]

I had a hard time keeping interested in the episode. I think I do better marathoning it, than week to week. I may wait til the season is over and catch it on Netflix.

[Delphi]

Well, that was interesting. I really think they are killing off the cast members pretty quickly. So maybe I don't have to worry about over crowding for long. Maybe Montoya and Allen can come back. I'd enjoy that.

I loved Selina in this episode. From the beginning, telling Bridget to only look after her self because one day Selina will indeed be protecting the helpless girls in the East End. And everything with her and Gordon. Good God, no one trust Jim when he makes a promise. It's like telling Snow White a secret, I swear. For a second I thought she was going to point out to Jim that he broke his promise to her just like he did Bruce.

Selina and Leslie's exchange was pure gold as well.

I'm getting very bored with Tabitha though, I want Victor to shoot her. Which I shouldn't, but this whole Tigress thing isn't doing it for me. Showing up to dinner with blood on your face, really?

I hope Butch isn't reprogrammed for Theo instead. I think it'd would be to obvious and I think this show could stand to be less obvious.

Poor Miss Kringle. I honestly don't know why Nygma would tell her that. That's so dumb.

More Bruce, Alfred and Harvey would make me a lot happier.

[Sakura12]

To me it seemed like Kringle was fishing for info from Ngyma, the way she kept pushing the conversation about him, like she knew he did it. Then she just freaked out and started antagonizing him. Her reaction was confusing to me. 

 

It's kind of funny that Selina turning more dark side is kind of on Jim for making promises he can't keep. It also seems to be the catalyst for Bruce not trusting the law. He needs to start saying "I'll see what I can do" or "I'll try" Not "I promise". 

 

I find it interesting that Firefly is still alive, makes me think that Jerome is still alive or being brought back to life which will give him the bleached face look. It could also explain why they don't know the Joker is Jerome, they think he's dead. 

[Philbert]

 

And Penguin, really?  You're going to reclaim your mother with an army, and you don't have Victor there?

 

After show previews are your friend :)

[paigow]

After show previews are your friend :)

Is Victor part Wolverine? Strike Force wounded him during the Union Boss firefight a couple episodes ago... 

[Delphi]

Is Victor part Wolverine? Strike Force wounded him during the Union Boss firefight a couple episodes ago...

He's highly resilient to pain. Evidenced by how quickly he disappeared without a trace after being shot.

[paigow]

He's highly resilient to pain. Evidenced by how quickly he disappeared without a trace after being shot.

A high pain threshold is not mutant level power...instantly cauterizing arteries, pushing bullets out through the entry wound and sealing the skin gets you an "X"

[Delphi]

Okay, well, no he's not Wolverine. My point was that he was not taken down by that bullet, he was able to make his escape to either go to a crime doctor or patch himself up. If Zsasz was in a state of moral peril this is the kind of show that would want us to see that.

[Timetoread]

I need Jerome back.  That is all.

[Perfect Xero]

It's kind of funny that Selina turning more dark side is kind of on Jim for making promises he can't keep. It also seems to be the catalyst for Bruce not trusting the law. He needs to start saying "I'll see what I can do" or "I'll try" Not "I promise".

 

Well, technically all he promised was to do everything he could to keep Bridgette safe, and I think he did everything he could have given the situation. It didn't work, but crazy throws a wrench in most plans.

 

I'm also not sure why Gordon seems to feel like he owes Selina much of anything, so far last season she lied to him about the Wayne investigation, broke in to his and Barbara's apartment, and she aided Fish in attempting to murder him and Bullock (as Harvey reminded him in this episode).

[TwistedandBored]

In Season , I thought Nygma would accidentally kill Miss. Kringle and then I stopped thinking like that this season. I instead started to think maybe they will be crazy and creepy killers together. I did not think they would still stay on the accidentally death plan. Damn!

 

I love Selina, she is way more interesting than young Bruce. Speaking of Bruce, I hope he picks up on the creepy and crazy family dynamic real soon. 

 

Penguin is seriously losing me this season. I don't need to see his sniveling ass in every episode. Fix this storyline writers.

 

We need more scenes of Harvey and I can't believe I am about to say but of Barbara as well. Her descend into madness needs to be utilized! 

 

Butch has every right to come after Penguin and I hope he succeeds in getting rid of the programing and start becoming a real enemy. 

 

Gordon and Alfred were there too. 

[Danielg342]

Yawn. Ho hum. I get that this is a comic book show...but c'mon. Everyone was so one-rote and boring. Was there anyone with a pulse or some kind of range of human emotions tonight?

 

Okay, I'll be fair- Selina telling Gordon off for "killing" Bridgit Pike was a powerful, emotional scene. She really stole the show there. Plus it was amusing seeing Lee be nonchalant despite having a shotgun aimed at her face. Actually, Selina- and thus Camren Bincondova- was really on point tonight, perhaps the only one who I could say that about. Everyone else? It was a whole lot of "ugh".

 

First off, Theo Galavan. I get it. He's smart. He knows what he's doing. He is not omnipotent. Maybe if I really think about it, I could buy that Galavan is so smart that he could perceive that Penguin cut Butch's hand off as a way to gain his trust, but seeing that made me think he's now almost firmly a Villain Sue. When has Galavan actually faced some kind of a challenge or adversity on this show? When has anything he's done not gone according to plan? When has anyone seen through his smug demeanour to see who he really is? Seriously...come on.

 

Secondly...Tabitha. Jessica Lucas is lovely and seems to be having a lot of fun with her role...but is The Tigress also just a one-dimensional hitwoman who does everything her brother tells her to do?

 

Then there were the Pike brothers, cackling and abusing their own sister, being the same, tired, old depraved criminals...yeah, yeah, I get it, you're evil. Maybe have something else you can say about yourself?

 

Nathaniel Barnes...your "we uphold the law and I am the law!" schtick is getting old. Fast.

 

Oh, and Jim? Enough with the grunting. I get it, the city is screwing you...but please, we don't need the auditory reminder...

 

...and secondly Jim, when are you going to make a promise you can keep? Selina's right to be mad with you.

 

This then brings me to Silver St. Cloud...okay, I know Natalie Alyn Lind is 15, but...she was gorgeous. I have to admit that. However, it bothers me that, like every other woman that's connected to Theo, she seems to be there as nothing but eye candy, and it's especially weird (maybe nauseating, even) seeing that and knowing not just the character but the actress is jail-bait. Nothing against Lind, but if this show was going to bring on a young tart for sex appeal...maybe get an actress who's 18?

 

Besides, why can't Silver be more than just than just an object for Bruce? Even a temptress has a personality.

 

Lastly, of all the gripes...there's Edward Nygma and Kris Kringle. Well, I thought Kringle's death would be the worst of it, and, while that aspect is what still bothers me most about the entire storyline, seeing Kringle and Nygma getting extensive scenes together was pretty grating. Chelsea Spack and Cory Michael Smith are fine actors...but they have no chemistry. Nothing about that entire sequence really sold me that they were a couple...they just felt like two actors going through the motions, although Spack was especially sweet and endearing. Probably what bothered me most is that seeing Kringle freak out about Nygma killing Tom Dougherty is that it reminded me how silly their entire relationship was...Nygma really didn't do anything to charm Kringle and yet she turned around almost instantaneously.

 

...and all for what? Just so she can be killed and give Nygma more stuff to angst over? Please. She had nothing to do, really and it's a shame because I think she could have been fun to have around. A "Bonnie & Clyde" riddle-killing machine might have actually been fun. Of course, this show hardly ever respects the talents of its female cast, so why should I expect their treatment of Chelsea Spack to be any different?

 

I also believe Nygma's descent should have been slow, and his real moment of darkness should have come in Season 3. It sounds like his story is just an afterthought, when Nygma is becoming one of the most important Batman criminals of all time. He should get proper focus and attention that storyline deserves, instead of having it rushed since he's always the "B" plot.

 

Other things:

 

-I appreciate that Bridgit is still actually alive...but it still feels like she left too soon. I hope this isn't the end of her, because she was actually a fun character.

-Bruce getting decked by Alfred. It was especially funny because Bruce implored Alfred that he was ready...only for him not to be paying attention in the middle of the fight allowing Alfred to clock him pretty badly. Hey, kid, if you're ready...you gotta be ready for anything.

-Not enough Harvey Bullock...again. Donal Logue should just quit this show and get his own...he's been comically mistreated.

-Barbara had what, three lines? So much for the show "using her talents"

 

Pretty bad tonight.

[Kathemy]

As I suspected, Silver turns out to be "in on the fix", so to speak. This means her episodes on the show are likely numbered, even if she may not be killed off and even if she may bail short of actually going through with the eventual murder plot. I don't see her and Bruce lasting past season 2. The reason for that is that Bruce is a supporting character, Silver is basically a socialite girl who doesn't have much "going" for herself and Bruce, being a supporting character and so far not shining as brightly as Selina - even if David is certainly competent enough, he just doesn't get a lot of good material to work with - can't "carry" a normal girlfriend subplot. Him and Selina could get together because they are both supporting characters which means it wouldn't result in the show getting turned into Gotham: Kiddie Edition™. They will probably be an item for a while in season three. If Silver returns that will be much later when Bruce's character has expanded.

 

I think the show was very, very strong last night and it scored a rating of 1.5 despite being up against Supergirl, which frankly is awesome. I didn't mind any of the subplots. There was nothing "misogynistic" about how they killed off any of the female characters. Kringle had a perfectly logical character arc even if it was all about Edward. Guess what, Edward is the Riddler. It's not exactly a shocker he'll get a trigger character for his transformation. If Mama Cobblepot gets whacked, that won't be "misogynistic" either. Oswald is the Penguin. See above. Firefly getting whacked (albeit surviving)? Well, wasn't that the show making an (admittedly hamfisted but rather in-character-cartoonish) point about her rage consuming her?

 

It's not as if Gotham is scared of killing off its male recurrings! Remember Jerome? Remember Fish blowing Maroni's brains out?

 

I don't mind Natalie's looks at all, she's really cute, but Camren really is far more stunning. Her acting is growing in leaps and bounds, too, and I have a feeling that David is about to step up his game as well.

 

Well done, Gotham.

[rue721]

I'm also not sure why Gordon seems to feel like he owes Selina much of anything, so far last season she lied to him about the Wayne investigation, broke in to his and Barbara's apartment, and she aided Fish in attempting to murder him and Bullock (as Harvey reminded him in this episode).

 

Because she's a kid, and he's still got some hope that she could turn out OK. He knows she doesn't have anybody. 

 

What's weird about Silver and Tabitha is that they basically function like robots under Theo's control. It felt really dark and sad to me when Tabitha went after Butch to "undo" his conditioning for Theo, because she's even more Theo's servant than Butch is Penguin's. She seems to have even less free will and freedom than he does. Who's going to deprogram her? (probably nobody)

 

The show did a good job establishing Theo's bonafides as a villain for me when he murdered Jerome. It seemed like Jerome really thought that Theo cared about him, judging by how he rubbed it in his father's face that Theo had broken him out of Arkam and "believed" in him. And it seemed like Jerome was genuinely shocked when Theo stabbed him through the neck. That's a really callous manipulation. Jerome was a sociopathic freak, but he was also a messed up kid who apparently never had had anybody who cared about him.

 

I feel like Theo specifically targets people with no family. None of the Maniax had any, I think? Silver apparently has no family, either, since she's Theo's ward. Not that step-relatives can't be family irl, but Theo made sure to tell everyone that Silver was not his blood relative as soon as he introduced her, which makes me think that he doesn't consider her family, in any case.

 

It gave me the creeps how he toasted family with Bruce. He's always going on about the importance of family with people who don't have any. There was exactly one even sorta happy family on this show, Penguin's, and he specifically targeted and destroyed it.

 

I wonder what happened to the rest of Theo's? If he had a stepbrother, than he must have had parents and stepparents and more relations than just Tabitha, at some point. Maybe they're still around? (Maybe they answered this in that flashback to hundreds of years ago -- I don't remember).

 

Do we know who killed Bruce's parents (I don't remember this, either)? Could Theo have put the hit on them? (actual question, not really a theory. The Wayne's murder was so many episodes ago that I don't remember the circumstances too well).

[Kathemy]

I think the Wayne murders will end up on the backburner being unsolved for almost the entire show, which frankly is a bit annoying. I'm able to forgive that though because most of the show is stellar right now.

[J----av]

Yawn. Ho hum. I get that this is a comic book show...but c'mon. Everyone was so one-rote and boring. Was there anyone with a pulse or some kind of range of human emotions tonight?

 

Okay, I'll be fair- Selina telling Gordon off for "killing" Bridgit Pike was a powerful, emotional scene. She really stole the show there. Plus it was amusing seeing Lee be nonchalant despite having a shotgun aimed at her face. Actually, Selina- and thus Camren Bincondova- was really on point tonight, perhaps the only one who I could say that about. Everyone else? It was a whole lot of "ugh".

 

First off, Theo Galavan. I get it. He's smart. He knows what he's doing. He is not omnipotent. Maybe if I really think about it, I could buy that Galavan is so smart that he could perceive that Penguin cut Butch's hand off as a way to gain his trust, but seeing that made me think he's now almost firmly a Villain Sue. When has Galavan actually faced some kind of a challenge or adversity on this show? When has anything he's done not gone according to plan? When has anyone seen through his smug demeanour to see who he really is? Seriously...come on.

 

Secondly...Tabitha. Jessica Lucas is lovely and seems to be having a lot of fun with her role...but is The Tigress also just a one-dimensional hitwoman who does everything her brother tells her to do?

 

Then there were the Pike brothers, cackling and abusing their own sister, being the same, tired, old depraved criminals...yeah, yeah, I get it, you're evil. Maybe have something else you can say about yourself?

 

Nathaniel Barnes...your "we uphold the law and I am the law!" schtick is getting old. Fast.

 

Oh, and Jim? Enough with the grunting. I get it, the city is screwing you...but please, we don't need the auditory reminder...

 

...and secondly Jim, when are you going to make a promise you can keep? Selina's right to be mad with you.

 

This then brings me to Silver St. Cloud...okay, I know Natalie Alyn Lind is 15, but...she was gorgeous. I have to admit that. However, it bothers me that, like every other woman that's connected to Theo, she seems to be there as nothing but eye candy, and it's especially weird (maybe nauseating, even) seeing that and knowing not just the character but the actress is jail-bait. Nothing against Lind, but if this show was going to bring on a young tart for sex appeal...maybe get an actress who's 18?

 

Besides, why can't Silver be more than just than just an object for Bruce? Even a temptress has a personality.

 

Lastly, of all the gripes...there's Edward Nygma and Kris Kringle. Well, I thought Kringle's death would be the worst of it, and, while that aspect is what still bothers me most about the entire storyline, seeing Kringle and Nygma getting extensive scenes together was pretty grating. Chelsea Spack and Cory Michael Smith are fine actors...but they have no chemistry. Nothing about that entire sequence really sold me that they were a couple...they just felt like two actors going through the motions, although Spack was especially sweet and endearing. Probably what bothered me most is that seeing Kringle freak out about Nygma killing Tom Dougherty is that it reminded me how silly their entire relationship was...Nygma really didn't do anything to charm Kringle and yet she turned around almost instantaneously.

 

...and all for what? Just so she can be killed and give Nygma more stuff to angst over? Please. She had nothing to do, really and it's a shame because I think she could have been fun to have around. A "Bonnie & Clyde" riddle-killing machine might have actually been fun. Of course, this show hardly ever respects the talents of its female cast, so why should I expect their treatment of Chelsea Spack to be any different?

 

I also believe Nygma's descent should have been slow, and his real moment of darkness should have come in Season 3. It sounds like his story is just an afterthought, when Nygma is becoming one of the most important Batman criminals of all time. He should get proper focus and attention that storyline deserves, instead of having it rushed since he's always the "B" plot.

 

Other things:

 

-I appreciate that Bridgit is still actually alive...but it still feels like she left too soon. I hope this isn't the end of her, because she was actually a fun character.

-Bruce getting decked by Alfred. It was especially funny because Bruce implored Alfred that he was ready...only for him not to be paying attention in the middle of the fight allowing Alfred to clock him pretty badly. Hey, kid, if you're ready...you gotta be ready for anything.

-Not enough Harvey Bullock...again. Donal Logue should just quit this show and get his own...he's been comically mistreated.

-Barbara had what, three lines? So much for the show "using her talents"

 

Pretty bad tonight.

Its freaking episode 6 of like 22. Give it time. Galavan will get his adversity.

 

Also the less Barbara the better! The actress is terrible and so is her character. Seems like you are just looking for anything to criticize. Seriously, you are complaining about Silver St. Cloud and her actress being jail bait?

Edited October 28, 2015 by J----av

[Kathemy]

Like I said in an earlier thread, it is apparently very fashionable to bash Gotham. People will jump at any excuse.

 

Seen as a whole, I'd rate season 1 of Gotham as "good". From what I've seen of season 2, that's upgraded to "excellent". The positive word of mouth is spreading. Several shows appealing to people who could get into Gotham are on their last legs. As an example the Vampire Diaries are starting to wind down and fans of that show could appreciate Gotham especially if the actors are given a bit time to grow up and settle into their roles. Gotham holding its own despite being pitted against the pilot of Supergirl is nothing short of fantastic. We are absolutely certain to get at least four seasons out of this show and if I would make a guess, I'd actually say six.

[Perfect Xero]

This then brings me to Silver St. Cloud...okay, I know Natalie Alyn Lind is 15, but...she was gorgeous. I have to admit that. However, it bothers me that, like every other woman that's connected to Theo, she seems to be there as nothing but eye candy, and it's especially weird (maybe nauseating, even) seeing that and knowing not just the character but the actress is jail-bait. Nothing against Lind, but if this show was going to bring on a young tart for sex appeal...maybe get an actress who's 18?

Silver/Natalie is pretty, but hardly dresses or acts provocatively or seductively on the show IMO, and hasn't done anything so far to indicate that she's there for sex appeal or to be "jail-bait" (she certainly doesn't seem to be attempting to draw the interest of any of the adult characters so far), if anything her appeal to Bruce seems to be that, in addition to being pretty, she's nice and sweet.

 

Because she's a kid, and he's still got some hope that she could turn out OK. He knows she doesn't have anybody. 

 

What's weird about Silver and Tabitha is that they basically function like robots under Theo's control. It felt really dark and sad to me when Tabitha went after Butch to "undo" his conditioning for Theo, because she's even more Theo's servant than Butch is Penguin's. She seems to have even less free will and freedom than he does. Who's going to deprogram her? (probably nobody)

 

I get that angle with Selina and Jim, that she's a kid and maybe he thinks she's not a lost cause, but .. at the same time he seems to have an awful lot of compassion for her to basically just shrug off that whole attempted murder thing.

 

As for Tabitha, I don't really see her like that.I think she genuinely likes the plans and insanity he comes up with and he enjoys her indulging her sadistic side. At times they almost strike me like kids who are playing at being villains. She enjoys being in the role of badass assassin/enforcer to Theo's "criminal mastermind", so she'll keep playing at that part for as long as it amuses her. At the same time, when she gets bored with his efforts to rub shoulders with the Gotham elites, she'll say something shocking just for the fun of it.

[Kathemy]

Well to be fair Tabitha knew the deputy major was going to bite the bullet, so.

[rue721]

As for Tabitha, I don't really see her like that.I think she genuinely likes the plans and insanity he comes up with and he enjoys her indulging her sadistic side. At times they almost strike me like kids who are playing at being villains. She enjoys being in the role of badass assassin/enforcer to Theo's "criminal mastermind", so she'll keep playing at that part for as long as it amuses her. At the same time, when she gets bored with his efforts to rub shoulders with the Gotham elites, she'll say something shocking just for the fun of it.

 

I think Tabitha is genuinely sadistic. So I agree, as far as that goes. But I find it creepy how she seems to exist only as Theo's sidekick, and to have no will or life of her own. She's so endlessly obedient and subservient to him. I find that much scarier/weirder than that she likes to play with bullwhips or says ridiculous things with a deadpan expression.

 

Before the show introduced Bridget, I hadn't really thought much about Tabitha and Theo's relationship. But that conversation between Bridget and Selina has stuck with me.

 

Bridget:  what good's freedom if you're alone?

Selina:  what good's family if you're a slave?

 

I don't know that Theo is really so different from Bridget's brothers. I think that Theo finds people who are alone, and offers them a place to belong -- but only in return for their freedom. And he's finding plenty of people who think the deal he's offering is pretty good, which is pretty sad.

 

Seen as a whole, I'd rate season 1 of Gotham as "good". From what I've seen of season 2, that's upgraded to "excellent".

 

I agree. I think this season has been kicking some ass.

 

ETA:

 

I think the reason that Theo is able to get away with such hammy acting is because he's telling people what they want to hear, and showing them what they want to see. They want to believe him, so they do.

Edited October 28, 2015 by rue721

[tomatoflyer]

I loved it! I really like how Jim went from seeing things as right/wrong to seeing to a little more grey now. Season 1 Jim bored me because I knew how he would react ahead of time. I do miss Harvey playing a bigger role but I also like seeing more characters - it seems Moore dynamic.

I'm really intrigued by Indian Hill. I don't know how it fits in yet, which is something I like. I'm glad Bridgit survived though, I think Gotham really benefits from characters who aren't one-offs, who you can at least have some investment in.

Some may say this Gotham is too dark, but I think Gotham kind of needs to be.

[Kathemy]

I have to make another comment about the ratings for the show.

 

I watched the pilot of Supergirl again. I saw no changes from the leaked one.

 

Now, first of all, I didn’t much enjoy it, but I certainly don’t hope for the show to fail. That said, while the pilot drew strong ratings I do expect them to decline, perhaps rather sharply.

 

However, Supergirl drew 3.1 compared to Gotham’s 1.5. Gotham’s ratings were quite respectable for being on Fox and we’re practically guaranteed to get at least four seasons unless the network goes bankrupt.

 

Despite this, the problem was that Gotham suffered a sharp viewer decline in the second half-hour, when it was pitted against Supergirl. By next week, it will air at exactly the same time as Gotham, and that will cost us.

 

To be perfectly frank, CBS slotting Supergirl against Gotham is a dick move. It’s practically a declaration of war. They know both shows are based on DC comics and they know their decision hurts the FOX network.

 

That said, this isn’t a fight Gotham should be taking. While I think the show is safe either way, there is no reason to silently suffer a ratings loss to Supergirl. FOX has worrying problems at the moment across its entire line-up, and they should be the bigger guy here. They should move Gotham.

 

I suspect that Supergirl will end up failing on its own merits. Please don’t take this as me hoping for it. I just don’t want to see them dragging Gotham down with them.