Spoiler Discussion Thread

[LolaRuns]

AskAusielle said there's actually a minister that is cast for the Supergirl episode. So they do have somebody different. So that to me means that Diggle doing Westallen twice is unlikely. First attempt might be with the minister, second attempt is Diggle. 

[tv echo]

After the horrible beginning of last season, I'm trying really hard not to get upset about Arrow (or Arrowverse)-related stuff this season. I'm going to watch the show for as long as I can enjoy it. But if at some point, the show becomes not enjoyable to me, I'll just stop.

Edited September 23, 2017 by tv echo

[Mellowyellow]

haha I found that last season has totally chilled me out for this season. My gawd last season was rough!!!

It is my New Arrow Season Resolution to try and whinge less about stuff. Hehe see how long I last! 

I find that it's up and down with this show. Something will be awesome and exciting one day (like all those Olicity pics which even made me less hostile towards MYSON!!!!!!) and then the next day you get slapped with sh@tty wet blanket news. But I assume (hope) there will be something good and fun for us to freak out about again at some point!

[apinknightmare]

30 minutes ago, LolaRuns said:

AskAusielle said there's actually a minister that is cast for the Supergirl episode. So they do have somebody different. So that to me means that Diggle doing Westallen twice is unlikely. First attempt might be with the minister, second attempt is Diggle. 

If they're hiring a minister for Supergirl, and Diggle is officiating two weddings, it's either WestAllen twice, or there's a third couple getting married.

Edited September 23, 2017 by apinknightmare

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think fans should ask David to clarify at the next con..

[tv echo]

SA and WH have panels today at Salt Lake Comic Con.

[tv echo]

Another pic...

[SmallScreenDiva]

Oh, I'm sorry, looks like that kid is still sporting the same blank look. 

[way2interested]

4 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Oh, I'm sorry, looks like that kid is still sporting the same blank look. 

It's the other two of him and EBR that give me 5% more hope

[LeighAn]

On my god they are so adorable ❤ I'm telling you these photos have me sold. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

He looks like he could be SA's kid so at least that is on point. ? One thing I just noticed..does he thread his eyebrows? LOL

[Belinea]

One thing can be said about the actor, he is a very good-looking kid. He also has this wholesome look to him. Hopefully he won't take it to heart if his character isn't received well. Maybe he can make something out of the material. Who knows.

[Featherhat]

It's not like he's been given anything to work with at all, being mainly a crayoning prop, but he didn't exactly show a spark on his own before either like some young actors can. I thought there was a reason SA was hugging him so his face was away from the camera for a long time in 5.23 and the promos don't exactly fill me with confidence either. But since he seems to be sticking around I hope we get more of the Jack Moore smiling with EBR type scenes and less of the blank face. Maybe interacting with Felicity or even Raisa will help draw him out and "sell" him because I'm a lot more interested in these scenes than any he's been in so far. And he is a good looking kid.

[calliope1975]

11 minutes ago, tv echo said:

[Midnight Lullaby]

He changes his mind about it a few times each year..lol

[Belinea]

Why are people so into this awful looking beard? 

[apinknightmare]

Hopefully the van dyke is on E-X Oliver so it gets obliterated along with his Nazi ass.

[Morrigan2575]

4 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Hopefully the van dyke is on E-X Oliver so it gets obliterated along with his Nazi ass.

That's what I was thinking but, he does say before end of the series. I have a feeling you'll get it in some flash forward or dream in the final season or series finale. 

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

That's what I was thinking but, he does say before end of the series. I have a feeling you'll get it in some flash forward or dream in the final season or series finale. 

The crossover is before the end of the series, just let me have this one until November pls

[Morrigan2575]

Just now, apinknightmare said:

The crossover is before the end of the series, just let me have this one until November pls

I think it would be absolutely perfect if Evil Nazi Oliver wore that ugly ass Van Dyke. I'll give them major props if everyone, including Felicity makes fun of evil Oliver's ugly ass facial hair AND if Felicity tells E1 Oliver that she'll dump his ass if he ever grows one ???

[insomniadreams88]

4 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

That's what I was thinking but, he does say before end of the series. I have a feeling you'll get it in some flash forward or dream in the final season or series finale. 

Series finale begins with Oliver waking up in bed, gasping for air. Felicity wakes up next to him, asks if he had a nightmare. He tells her he did, she worries he saw someone he loves die. But no, it's worse! Cue a quick flash of him with that awful facial hair. 

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Cue a quick flash of him with that awful facial hair.

"GET ME A RAZOR, NOW"

[tv echo]

News alert! MB did an interview (not yet posted) at MCM Scotland Comic Con today - I almost posted this in the Social Media thread, but then remembered that Slade Wilson's return in S6 is technically still a spoiler...

Edited September 23, 2017 by tv echo

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, calliope1975 said:

Can I just say how much I love that SPN really does have a GIF for everything. LOL . This has been your daily Catrox14 SPN non-sequitor reference.

1 hour ago, Belinea said:

Why are people so into this awful looking beard? 

Because Comics. Literally the only reason I can think of.. Was Justin Hartley ever forced to wear the Van Dyke? I can't quite recollect. And he was closer to comics Oliver Queen than Arrow Oliver

[SmallScreenDiva]

3 hours ago, way2interested said:

It's the other two of him and EBR that give me 5% more hope

He smiles! He expresses an emotion! Hooray! 

Joking aside, Arrow needs to sell this kid if he's gonna be sticking around and if he has a rapport with Emily then by all means toss them together in some cutesy scenes. Have them both make fun of Oliver ... lovingly :P

[catrox14]

SPN really needs to help them with casting youth actors. They have had a run of really great youth actors. (Sorry that's my second SPN reference of the day!)

[Guest]

The kid actor is a cutie and definitely looks like he could be SA's son. Shame he's not a good actor though. Sorry not sorry. ? ?

(I was gonna say putting him with EBR might help because she can usually sell anything but that hasn't always been the case so IDK. It might work. It might not. I hope the former, seeing as he's sticking around.)

[Belinea]

Manu Bennett looks good in that pic. Wonder how they managed to make up with him. Because I doubt they could afford to throw tons of money at him. 

[Primal Slayer]

11 minutes ago, Belinea said:

Manu Bennett looks good in that pic. Wonder how they managed to make up with him. Because I doubt they could afford to throw tons of money at him. 

Didn't MG say how he had a conversation with Manu about where they wanted to take the character or something?

[way2interested]

1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

(I was gonna say putting him with EBR might help because she can usually sell anything but that hasn't always been the case so IDK. It might work. It might not. I hope the former, seeing as he's sticking around.)

I kept thinking about this, and funnily enough I actually think that any time EBR tries to sell something and that something is being written as a positive effect or for support for Oliver or Felicity, then it usually works (Barry caused drama between Oliver and Felicity for an episode but appreciated Felicity and saved Oliver's life, Rory was a VOTW but was a part of story support for Felicity and even a little for Oliver, Curtis in s4 was used in support of Felicity's and then Oliver's story, etc.). On the other hand, when the character is used as a hindrance/pseudo-enemy in Oliver's or Felicity's story or is not used in connection to Oliver's or Felicity's story then it usually doesn't (Ray is introduced as a competitor for Oliver and even initially Felicity along with even going against both of them for one full episode near the end of the season, Billy is mostly just an unnecessary hindrance on the plot, supporting Laurel comes at the expense of Oliver being gone for episodes and then Laurel going against Oliver for some aspect of drama right after, etc.). Heck, it's to a lesser extent why Rene didn't really work, since he was actively fighting Oliver and not really ever (until parts of the end) used as a support for his story except in a symbolic sense of "trusting the team."

So basically what I'm kind of seeing is that pairing him up with Felicity would actually probably work (at least to the extent that you can I guess), as long as he doesn't become a character that does cause drama between characters (which MG and WM seemed pretty set in the commentary that he wouldn't) or a character that adds excessive negativity for Oliver's/Felicity's life. Yeah, as an existence, the kid is just a plot point who is there to cause Oliver drama for the sake of Oliver becoming a dad, but if they treat parenthood as the goal ("Oliver keeps making mistakes as a dad") to reach rather than a "William continually causes problems that make Oliver innocently trying to act as a dad harder" plot kind of like how Rene was initially used or how Dinah was initially introduced, then it might be easier to swallow. Basically just let the kid have scenes with Oliver for story that focuses more on Oliver's own reactions and Felicity for personality and don't make him actively cause extra grievances for either of them. 

Edited September 24, 2017 by way2interested

[tangerine95]

Tbh for me scenes with Felicity won't help me want William around,no matter how cute.I just never think I wish my fave ship suddenly had a random kid with questionable acting and writing in their life on a regular basis,it's never been a storyline I wanted for olicity and I've never enjoyed it when shows add secret kids in any way.But still cute scenes are better than using the kid as a reason for drama and break ups so there's that at least.

But really I think arrow has been the worst at this trope.First use the kid for the break up that doesn't make logical sense,that lasts too long and makes the lead character look awful.Then most likely kill off the mother and make the lead of the superhero show raise the kid they didn't bother connect the audience to in any way before such a huge change.

[Featherhat]

1 hour ago, tangerine95 said:

Tbh for me scenes with Felicity won't help me want William around,no matter how cute.I just never think I wish my fave ship suddenly had a random kid with questionable acting and writing in their life on a regular basis,it's never been a storyline I wanted for olicity and I've never enjoyed it when shows add secret kids in any way.But still cute scenes are better than using the kid as a reason for drama and break ups so there's that at least.

But really I think arrow has been the worst at this trope.First use the kid for the break up that doesn't make logical sense,that lasts too long and makes the lead character look awful.Then most likely kill off the mother and make the lead of the superhero show raise the kid they didn't bother connect the audience to in any way before such a huge change.

I definitely agree they've used the whole plotline horribly so far and it made very little logical sense etc and yeah probably killing off the mother after simply using the kid as a kidnapped plot device was a bad move but I do think if we get scenes like the BTS pics and them trying to bond as a proto family it will help if he is sticking around, especially if JM is able to produce some emotion. I wouldn't be surprised if he spends quite a few episodes with Raisa as a Nanny or someone else though. It will never be my favourite storyline.

I think @way2interested analysis is on point and I hope it goes in that direction. At least it will help with the perception that Felicity hates a 12? year old kid because of 4.15-16 and everyone else turned into a pod person, even though she has repeatedly said that wasn't the issue at all. Then again she'll probably be accused of trying to take over as his mom and SWF her or something.

[Mellowyellow]

2 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

Tbh for me scenes with Felicity won't help me want William around,no matter how cute.I just never think I wish my fave ship suddenly had a random kid with questionable acting and writing in their life on a regular basis,it's never been a storyline I wanted for olicity and I've never enjoyed it when shows add secret kids in any way.But still cute scenes are better than using the kid as a reason for drama and break ups so there's that at least.

But really I think arrow has been the worst at this trope.First use the kid for the break up that doesn't make logical sense,that lasts too long and makes the lead character look awful.Then most likely kill off the mother and make the lead of the superhero show raise the kid they didn't bother connect the audience to in any way before such a huge change.

I completely agree with you and it wasn't/will never be the storyline I wanted for them. I wanted them to be first time parents to their own Olicitots. Anyone who has seen my posts knows how badly I want Olicitots.

I think for me it came down to dropping the ship completely or stomaching this and the ship is too good for me to drop so I'm trying to make peace with this plot that I do not want. 

Felicity makes most people tolerable so there's that. Plus the pics of the whole family in matchy match outfits is better than a zillion other messed up things they can do with this plot. 

We can still hope he'll have magical grandparents overseas who will take him away once it's too much trouble for them to write him into the show. 

[tangerine95]

19 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I completely agree with you and it wasn't/will never be the storyline I wanted for them. I wanted them to be first time parents to their own Olicitots. Anyone who has seen my posts knows how badly I want Olicitots.

I think for me it came down to dropping the ship completely or stomaching this and the ship is too good for me to drop so I'm trying to make peace with this plot that I do not want. 

Felicity makes most people tolerable so there's that. Plus the pics of the whole family in matchy match outfits is better than a zillion other messed up things they can do with this plot. 

We can still hope he'll have magical grandparents overseas who will take him away once it's too much trouble for them to write him into the show. 

Yeah for sure if they're already going with this then nice scenes with Felicity and Oliver are probably the best way to go and I think it will work for most people.I'm just struggling with accepting that I have to deal with that at all,I literally skip even fics with that kind of premise of dad Oliver to a 12 year old and step mom Felicity.Just not my thing at all.Even olicity babies I only want if its the last season.

Same,now that Samantha in a coma seems less and less likely I'm moving my hopes to the grandparents lol.I really have a hard time imagining they will actually commit to Oliver raising a kid from now to the end of the show so I have some hope it's temporary.

Edited September 24, 2017 by tangerine95

[Midnight Lullaby]

I don't have a preference for their kids over William instead..if anyone watched Bones I adored Parker who was the guy's son while I didn't care at all for the kids they had later. It's that on this show if I think of Oliver playing dad or Felicity playing step mom (that I find a bit more interesting anyway) I'm bored already. And on top of that when I see him I think of MG's dumb interview about the lie so seeing him annoys me even if he doesn't do anything.

[tv echo]

William is a 12-year-old, played by a 14-year-old. If Jack Moore has another growth spurt and/or suddenly deepens his voice when he turns 15, then it will look ridiculous if a 12 or 13 year old is played someone who looks or sounds much older. So they'd either have to ship William off somehow or recast the character.

[tv echo]

Where's the head hitting desk gif? - This article is about what should happen to BS after her redemption (that's "all but been confirmed to happen eventually")...

‘Arrow’: Why Earth-2 Laurel Lance Is the Rightful Black Canary 
BY BILL COOKE ON    24 SEPTEMBER 2017
http://gearsofbiz.com/arrow-why-earth-2-laurel-lance-is-the-rightful-black-canary/82358

Quote

Sure, she’s not Earth-1 Laurel, but she’s close. She can honor her late counterpart by taking up her legacy and doing something good with it.
*  *  *
Black Siren could learn a lot from her counterpart and that could put her back on the path of good. She’ll never be completely good, but perhaps that’s for the best. Laurel was always too pure for Arrow; she wanted justice for everyone, and she could never truly get behind how dark Oliver’s path was. Black Siren can, however. She’s embraced the darkness inside; being the Black Canary means finding the justice and light inside, which is why Sara was never the Black Canary.

In the comics, the mantle is passed down through the family; Dinah Lance gave the mantle to her daughter, Dinah Laurel Lance, and in the show, Sara being the Canary inspired Laurel to be the Black Canary. Dinah Drake shares no relation; Laurel Lance is the Black Canary, and the only “rightful” person to inherit this mantle would be her doppelganger.
*  *  *
Dinah Drake started her mission off with justice and killing people, much like Sara did. The Black Canary has never stood for killing (justified or not, and no, Laurel never killed anyone as much as she may have wanted to sometimes.) Black Siren has no confirmed kills either, and she was raised with a similar upbringing to our Laurel so she has the same values inside of her somewhere. From what we’ve seen of Dinah, she has more in common with Sara than with Laurel.

Black Siren is the only person that should be taking the Black Canary mantle; not only because Katie Cassidy waited so long to play the part she was hired for only to have it ripped away, but because nothing else makes sense for Black Siren’s character after she finds redemption. Arrow always treats women like they’re replaceable, like they did with Laurel and Dinah, so it’s time to stop that trend.

Edited September 24, 2017 by tv echo

[Chaser]

There is so much wrong with that I wouldn't even know where to start.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Chaser

[Guest]

Didn't BS destroy a whole building over on The Flash? We have to assume there were people in there so...sorry dude, she has killed people. 

This "rightful BC" nonsense is why the BC mantle should've been buried with Laurel. For good.

[Mellowyellow]

First sentence of article:

Sure, she’s not Earth-1 Laurel, but she’s close. She can honor her late counterpart by taking up her legacy and doing something good with it.

Last sentence of article:

Arrow always treats women like they’re replaceable, like they did with Laurel and Dinah, so it’s time to stop that trend.

Me: Bahahahahahahahaha

OMG!!!!! I have never been one who debates or argues points particularly well or eloquently but goodness gracious. The stupidity! IT BURNS!!!!!!!!

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Where's the head hitting desk gif? - This article is about what should happen to BS after her redemption (that's "all but been confirmed to happen eventually")...

‘Arrow’: Why Earth-2 Laurel Lance Is the Rightful Black Canary 
BY BILL COOKE ON    24 SEPTEMBER 2017
http://gearsofbiz.com/arrow-why-earth-2-laurel-lance-is-the-rightful-black-canary/82358

[insomniadreams88]

Sometimes I feel like people think if they say something enough times, they'll make it true. "Oh, if we say she's going to be redeemed, maybe the EPs will think they said it and do it because they think they've promised it." 

Quote

Laurel was always too pure for Arrow; she wanted justice for everyone, and she could never truly get behind how dark Oliver’s path was. Black Siren can, however. She’s embraced the darkness inside; being the Black Canary means finding the justice and light inside, which is why Sara was never the Black Canary.

I just ... what? I don't even know how to respond to this. 

Quote

Laurel Lance is the Black Canary, and the only “rightful” person to inherit this mantle would be her doppelganger.

I don't think this actually makes sense? 

Quote

Black Siren has no confirmed kills either, and she was raised with a similar upbringing to our Laurel so she has the same values inside of her somewhere.

Just because she's failed to kill people in the past because other people intervened. I kind of hope she kills people in the premiere so that people stop saying this. Then what will the argument be? 

Quote

Arrow always treats women like they’re replaceable, like they did with Laurel and Dinah, so it’s time to stop that trend.

But it's totally okay if they continue the trend to replace Dinah with BS?

Quote

nothing else makes sense for Black Siren’s character after she finds redemption

What about when she's not redeemed? What will the argument be then? "Well, the Black Canary doesn't have to be good. She just has to be a Laurel Lance"?

[tangerine95]

Basically translates to I just really want KC to be BC,doesn't matter if it makes sense or not.

[Mellowyellow]

1 minute ago, tangerine95 said:

Basically translates to I just really want KC to be BC,doesn't matter if it makes sense or not.

Ya know if they just admitted that I'd have more respect for them!

I often just admit to things I have no rational argument for! It makes you look less stupid in the long run! 

[Primal Slayer]

This whole BS transition to BC really needs to die down imo. Had they not introduced DD I would've had 100% spec that they would make Siren into Canary but there is zero way they are doing a 4th full time Black Canary. I am fine with Laurel staying Black Siren and exploring that aspect of the character, as long as she is around and gets storylines ill be somewhat happy. Have my cake and eat it to.

[tv echo]

Also, didn't Laurel kill someone in S1 or S2 and showed no remorse or any bad feelings about it (I guess, because she was saving Oliver)? So both Laurel and Dinah killed bad guys, and both used "justice" as their reason for being a vigilante.

Edited September 24, 2017 by tv echo

[way2interested]

8 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

But really I think arrow has been the worst at this trope.First use the kid for the break up that doesn't make logical sense,that lasts too long and makes the lead character look awful.Then most likely kill off the mother and make the lead of the superhero show raise the kid they didn't bother connect the audience to in any way before such a huge change.

 

6 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I definitely agree they've used the whole plotline horribly so far and it made very little logical sense etc and yeah probably killing off the mother after simply using the kid as a kidnapped plot device was a bad move but I do think if we get scenes like the BTS pics and them trying to bond as a proto family it will help if he is sticking around, especially if JM is able to produce some emotion. I wouldn't be surprised if he spends quite a few episodes with Raisa as a Nanny or someone else though. It will never be my favourite storyline.

The idea that the kid as a character and a plot device was somewhat ill-received is actually why I think that the plot will either go one and/or two ways. 1) The kid will just completely remain a plot device who then spouts out whatever lines/actions needed for this plot, keeping the focus on Oliver while he voices his problems with other characters. 2) They will actually try to build this character up and pair him off with the main characters (Oliver, Diggle, Felicity, etc.) to try to get us to like him a la Rene. Both are things Arrow has done before and both kind of address problems with him as a character (either by keeping him minimally involved in a now unavoidable plot or by actually putting effort into writing him whether it works or not). And considering that they'll probably want Oliver to eventually succeed at being a dad, I can see them trying to ease/force the change by pairing him off with someone other than Oliver for at least a few scenes so as not to make him seem like he's causing a narrative rift between Oliver and the other characters. Not sure about family bonding or anything but at least some scene where it shows that other characters would logically interact with him in this new set-up.

That being said, what I'm kind of getting from 601's plot is that from 523-601 Oliver's probably been taking care of William as his kid but then not as an individual and doing his normal Oliver thing of being unable to connect to people. Something sets it off in this specific episode, Oliver finds a thematic reason to try to change how he is, gets an interaction with Slade to re-find out why he is this way (that two-worlds line), gets an interaction with Felicity to find out he has to be a person who shows he cares about his kid because of his own person rather than just because of a label, gets an interaction with Diggle to find out he can try to do that for his loved ones (as far as he knows/tries, since Diggle is hiding something from the team and eventually causes a rift between himself and Oliver anyway) so he might as well try for his son. Meanwhile they take down BS and whoever that guy she's working with as VOTW. Season goal set, ends with a cliffhanger/villain introduction/annual plot twist/whatever. Although this is just me speculating because I just miss speculating.

[Starfish35]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

Also, didn't Laurel kill someone in S1 or S2 and showed no remorse or any bad feelings about it (I guess, because she was saving Oliver)? So both Laurel and Dinah killed bad guys, and both used "justice" as their reason for being a vigilante.

Laurel killed the guy in the Brother Blood mask (I think that was 212), but for some reason the people that write these never seem to remember that.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Starfish35

[bijoux]

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

William is a 12-year-old, played by a 14-year-old. If Jack Moore has another growth spurt and/or suddenly deepens his voice when he turns 15, then it will look ridiculous if a 12 or 13 year old is played someone who looks or sounds much older. So they'd either have to ship William off somehow or recast the character.

I'm counting on William spending all his time "upstairs" or "at camp" as soon as it starts to look like Jack Moore will otwer over SA. It doesn't seem that far off. Until then, I expect to see him very rarely. Like maybe one episode between 601 and 607.

29 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Laurel killed the guy in the Brother Blood mask (I think that was 212), but for some reason the people that write these never seem to remember that.

She also totally would have killed that one VoTW if Oliver hadn't removed the bullets from the gun. 

[lemotomato]

29 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Laurel killed the guy in the Brother Blood mask (I think that was 212), but for some reason the people that write these never seem to remember that.

She also played judge, jury, and executioner on the guy she suspected of killing Sara in 302. She even pulled the trigger. The only reason she didn't kill the guy was because Oliver took the bullets out of the gun. LL fans never remember that incident either.