S05.E04: The Broken Kingdom

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Once Upon A Time's Got A Camelotta Betrayal Going On!
Mary and David pick sides in the fight for Camelot, while Emma learns to channel her inner Jason Statham.

[nomodrama]

 

"I'm going to finish the damned quest and get back the man I love." Heh. And the show continues its longstanding tradition of badass queens/princesses.

Agree, but this is why I am having so much trouble with this Lancelot/Guinevere "affair" storyline. She seemed to be going back and forth between the Arthur and Lancelot alot in this episode. First she's saying she loves Arthur then she's all "I thought I lost you!" when Lancelot was trapped in the DO goo. Then she loves Arthur again and then she is having a little good bye moment with Lancelot. I just don't buy any of it. 

 

So confused on the timeline, was confused watching, am still confused....

[KingOfHearts]

It kind of just hit me that we haven't had a non-magical villain (who has a major-ish role)

 

 

Unless you count Isaac... kinda sorta maybe not.

[Camera One]

Arthur was non-magical but the whole Sands of Avalon/mind control powder changed the game.  I think Snow and Charming approached this as if they were fighting King George or something.  Though I'm not sure what they expected after they "arrested" Arthur.  Surely, they didn't expect the people of Camelot and Arthur's guards to let strangers to the land claim that their King was a fraud.  Why would the people suddenly accept Lancelot?  Exactly how did they expect Guinevere to react?  Lancelot made it sound like Guinevere would take control of the kingdom, and everything would be okay.  As I said above, that also made no sense.  Bottom line, I really don't think the writers thought through the plot of the episode very clearly.  Since the solution was always going to be magic sand at the end of this episode.  That's always their problem... the focus is always on the "twist" and the magical fix-all (or in this case mess-all) at the end.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Camera One

[Souris]

I did not see any precursor of attraction/interest in Lancelot from Guinevere so the kiss seemed out of nowhere to me in OUaT. 

 

She knew that he was the one who had planned her birthday party, not Arthur like he was pretending. So I caught the attraction and caring there.

 

It was Middlemist flower, and I have no clue about flowers, but I don't think it's supposed to be a rose.

 

I thought it was Meadow Mist. Which makes sense since they grew in a meadow.

[KAOS Agent]

I think Snow and Charming approached this as if they were fighting King George or something.  Though I'm not sure what they expected after they "arrested" Arthur.  Surely, they didn't expect the people of Camelot and Arthur's guards to let strangers to the land claim that their King was a fraud.

 

Which is exactly why I was screaming at the two idiots the entire time. Why on earth were they giving up all the information when there was nothing they could do about Arthur if he turned out to be the bad guy? I knew the whole thing was a con going in, but couldn't figure out what their end game was and we never got to that because of the surprise! magic! twist! Wouldn't it make more sense to figure out Arthur's game without tipping their hand? That way they could play him and use him as they saw fit. Arresting him and taking over the kingdom because they said he was a bad guy made no sense. Again, this is why I am so amazed at everyone's praise for Snowing being smart in this episode. No. They were incredibly dumb. And I'm assuming that since Guinevere is still under the effects of the sand, so too should Snowing once their memories return.

[Camera One]

The writers went way overboard with the information David gave Arthur, simply to trick us into thinking David was really duped by Arthur, so they could do the "surprise" the viewers at the end.  As with their typical surprises, the buildup makes no sense in hindsight because they were overcompensating to ensure the viewers fell into their trap.  So despite the momentary victory for Snowing and people who actually want to cheer for Snowing, you have a scenario which basically confirms that Snowing are dumb, which would satisfy some people I'm sure but I don't see how it's enjoyable for most viewers.

[jhlipton]

Just as Hook would have made a better "hero", Belle would have worked better than Merida.
 

Hook also called Merida a fiery Scot when I'm pretty sure there's no Scotland in Fairytale Land.

Maybe not, but Brave took place in Scotland (albeit a magical one). There is a China (Mulan) in Fairytale Land, and an America (Pocahontas), so why not a Scotland?
 
 

Arthur is a bit not good. He and the Mills sisters have lots to chat about.

I was wondering what Abbie and Jenny had to do with this and then I realized I had the wrong show (they're on Sleepy Hollow). Wrong "Mills sisters"!
 
 

Does anyone else wonder why Arthur couldn't just take the sword and add a new end to it? Wouldn't that be a lot easier than looking for the broken piece?

 
Even with real swords, you can't take a piece of steel and add it to an existing sword -- the metals have to match.

[chrisvee]

I thought it was Meadow Mist. Which makes sense since they grew in a meadow.

Out of curiosity, I checked a posted transcript which had it rendered as Middlemist FWIW.

[PixiePaws1]

Hmmm....is it my imagination that imp Rumple was still visible to us after Emms had looked away...now this has happened before but when she had ridden off he stayed behind AND instead of the passive blank expression he has shown us before we got him changing expression into a truly satisfied smirk. Now why would imp Darkness Rumple be so happy about anything in that moment? ???

[PixiePaws1]

Also..have we actually heard from Merlin himself what the Prophecy actually is??? So far we only have Arthur's repetition of it...what if, and I think it likely, he has been grossly misled. The problem with prophecies and such in fantasy stories is that they are awfully convenient plot devices

There's the:

I saw it happen in the future so it must happen no matter how you try to avoid it, variation;

"It is written!" But it's so damn cryptic you can whack any meaning you like on it and still be somewhat right, variation;

There's 2 ways this can go but the hero/heroine must make the crucial and , usually self sacrificial, choice to enact it, variation;

And the ever popular, breadcrumb prophecy where you get the 1st part handed to you but you have to track the rest down bit by bit and when you get the whole thing it tells you that you had to go on a great journey to find your destiny, variation.

Methinks Arthur has been royally screwed over and Merlin might be wrongfully getting the blame for it.

Edited October 20, 2015 by PixiePaws1

[RadioGirl27]

Maybe it has already been mentioned, but something that has been bothering me is that, if Merlin was already trapped in the tree when Arthur was a kid, how did he go to the LWM to talk to baby Emma?

[Eolivet]

No, no, no. Ugh, mind control is the #1 Device of Lazy Writers in Fantastical Worlds. It is the Deus Ex Machina-est of all Deus Ex Machinas. Why have organic conflict between Snow, Charming and Emma -- a true difference of opinion about the best course of action when it's so much easier to have the sands made me do it!

 

To me, this speaks to poor writing to not make Arthur remotely sympathetic and/or trustworthy (as people have been calling him shady since day 1) so that it would be believable that well-meaning people would be duped by him or taken in by his sad story. I also think this was exceedingly poor casting (a rarity, as this show usually gets guest characters right) that the guy isn't good enough to make himself appear sympathetic even when he was supposed to be sympathetic.

 

To say nothing of the gross idea that Guinevere is essentially being mind...assaulted into changing her heart's desire and staying with a man she doesn't want to be with. That's really gross, show -- one of the grossest things you've done in a while.

 

I know that taking people's hearts is also a form of control, but I always thought when people were missing their hearts, there was something...off about them. This is just...ugh. So, (speculating) Emma is going to become the Dark One partially because her parents betrayed her because: mind control! So nobody is responsible for any of their actions because the writers need the plot to advance. Lazy, lazy, lazy.

 

The sire bond (another form of mind control) got me to stop watching Vampire Diaries. I'm just not here for "People don't have freewill, because: plot!" Unless someone breaks the mind control "spell" next episode, this arc can't end fast enough for me.

[Curio]

To me, this speaks to poor writing to not make Arthur remotely sympathetic and/or trustworthy (as people have been calling him shady since day 1) so that it would be believable that well-meaning people would be duped by him or taken in by his sad story. I also think this was exceedingly poor casting (a rarity, as this show usually gets guest characters right) that the guy isn't good enough to make himself appear sympathetic even when he was supposed to be sympathetic.

I've actually been enjoying Arthur's actor a lot and can see glimpses of sympathy in his performance. It's mainly in his eyes when he's being forced to do something for the good of Camelot (I thought he looked a bit remorseful when he made that guy drink poison last week) or the way he looked at Gwen when she interrupted him during her birthday party and he was trying to interpret the ancient symbols. When he shows her the star, eye, and sun and begs her, "What do you think it means?" he looks like he's about to have a mental breakdown and he's driving himself insane with all the research. It's not like Regina's crazy eyes she gets whenever she's gleefully setting things on fire or murdering people; Arthur is just being driven mad and is anguished about not living up to his prophecy. But that's all personal interpretation of the acting so I can see why some people don't pick up on that.

 

Speaking of Arthur and Regina, I don't like the double standards the show presents with its villains. Regina and Zelena have been shown to do just as bad (and worse) things as Arthur, yet the audience is supposed to view him as this terrible villain and everyone will probably want to either lock him up for the rest of his life, kill him, or he'll see the error of his ways and do a sacrificial death at the end of the arc. But if Regina gets to be a hero now and is BFFs with the Charmings and Zelena is on her second second chance, why isn't there someone on the show who's cheering for Arthur to get a second chance? Regina and Emma were the dumbasses who gave Ursula and Cruella second chances last season, or are they waiting for Arthur to get to his character's finale arc where he finally decides to beg for forgiveness?

 

Maybe it has already been mentioned, but something that has been bothering me is that, if Merlin was already trapped in the tree when Arthur was a kid, how did he go to the LWM to talk to baby Emma?

Either Merlin is lying to Arthur about being stuck in the tree, or it was just a vision that Emma saw in the movie theater. Maybe Merlin is allowed to visit people mentally in their heads but not physically in person.

 

I re-watched the episode and it occurred to me how little I care for Zelena because I didn't even notice she was gone. I at least thought about where Belle was, but I wish the show would give her more to do than lug around a bell jar all day and only help with research. The minimal amount of screen time for Regina and Robin was also a very welcome change, but sadly I know that won't last very long. 

[YaddaYadda]

I think the difference between Arthur and Zelena/Regina is that he is known as a force for good. It's especially shocking that this is what he going through, and this is what he has done to his wife. 

 

Merlin really got in Arthur's head. Guy would've been a lot happier being a regular knight, and proving himself that way.

 

Plus, I still wanna know what Gwen was going to tell him before he dusted her. It certainly sounds like he might have jumped to the wrong conclusion that she was leaving him for Lancelot, when she said she was going to follow her heart.

[HoodlumSheep]

Unless you count Isaac... kinda sorta maybe not.

Lol. I totally forgot Isaac was non-magical (I've tried to erase most of 4b from my brain), although he had a reality warping pen. So I guess they're at about the same level. Although at least Arthur can still be a viable threat with his sword skills and King status. Who knows, maybe Arthur will run out of magic sand.

[Camera One]

The subtlety they built in Arthur went out the window in the scene where he demanded the dagger from Snow/Lancelot.  There was something about that scene as written which made him seem crazy psycho with no human emotion.  Plus the squicky aspect of mind controlling Guinevere.  It might have been better if Guinevere was frozen into stone and a hologram Guinevere emerged as the illusion whenever he's in front of the people.  Maybe she could even have been holding Excalibur when she turns to stone so Arthur would need to find his inner goodness to pull the sword from the stone, again.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Camera One

[BoPeeps]

While not giving up on the show (it is still sometimes quite clever, is profuse with eye and heart candy, has gorgeous costuming, a fun original premise and no gore, blood and vampire/ zomby/ meth lab violence /throat slitting/exploding body parts every ten seconds), I have given up on it making any genuine sense.

I expect nothing sophisticated or thought provoking and just go with the disjointed snippet- stringing tale unfolding in total nonsense. For now, it suits me quite well to just take a commercial ridden hour of escape into make believe in a real world that gets progressively more mean and soulless, daily.

For that, I am a loyal fan of the chaos and confusing great nothingness of ONCE!

The writers long ago lost any sense of continuity or story telling direction. They want to tease the audience but haven't got a clue how to make that tease engaging or intelligent. They want us to believe there is serious planning and plotting and it just isn't there.

But for me, it doesn't have to be. It is goofy escapism with a family of twisted characters that have nothing much to do with anything resembling substance or rationale. When there is a moment or two of good growth, it is a joy. When something, by sheer luck, makes good sense, it rewards the adventure lover viewer in me.

The disjointed, individual snippets of fun are what keep me coming back. At the core, the concept of the broken sword is entertaining even though the dialogue around it is rather stupid.

Emma struggling against her darkness has its moments of thoughtfulness. The romance still heals all around.

This episode was a melting pot of a handful of choppy story lines. I don't particularly care about this version of Camelot or the characters portrayed because the only thing they share with any of the legends or tales are the names. They are unrecognizable otherwise and any intriguing twist on those characters is non -existent. The twists are more like painful contortions...but all those lunatics will be gone in the back half so I can embrace the brainless disconnect for now.

As always, I love The Pirate now that he has been given his personality back. I enjoyed the Charmings' argument, and was great to see Snow in action and not just a baby holder. I loved the few tossed in lines from Regina, thought Henry was sweet, and marvelled over the costuming magic . Rumple as Emma's faux brain demon is marvelous. He doesn't even have to say anything to show his gnarled menace.

I re-watched the fun parts that spoke to my needs and gladly forgot the rest!

[BoPeeps]

Mitch, on 20 Oct 2015 - 1:26 PM, said:

 

"Plus, any show that has that annoying Merida tied to the front of a Volkswagon...pulled my heart out, and commanded me to love it!

.....

HA!!!! :)

[Mitch]

I think we just have different senses of humor ...(and I promise never to insult the pretty little pirate again...okay, I can't do that but...).

 

Anywho back to the topic at hand..is anyone up on the fact that Rumple is gone from his death bed?  You would think someone would check on him and at least the Blue Fairy would be there, waiting for her Nemises of a hundred years to wake up so she can gloat over him.  Did that Super Evil Dark Swan just stuff pillows under the blanket to fool the dimmie of Storybrooke?

[Delphi]

I disagree with Regina on a lot of things. But I'm firmly of the belief that her house is decorated beautifully. I'm very jealous of it.

[formerlyfreedom]

We're veering off topic here. Let's get back to the episode discussion.

[InsertWordHere]

Maybe not, but Brave took place in Scotland (albeit a magical one). There is a China (Mulan) in Fairytale Land, and an America (Pocahontas), so why not a Scotland?

 

The source tales took place in those locations, yes, but the show has been very careful so far not to bring a real world place into the fairytale realm. Mulan has never identified herself as Chinese in the show. They referred to it as the Eastern Kingdom instead, which yes, is probably very similar to the China in Mulan's tale. Even Alice was from the England of another realm and not an England in Fairytale Land. Merida is not a Scot in the same way Rumple isn't, just like Belle is not Australian and Hook is not English.

[kili]

Anywho back to the topic at hand..is anyone up on the fact that Rumple is gone from his death bed?  You would think someone would check on him and at least the Blue Fairy would be there, waiting for her Nemises of a hundred years to wake up so she can gloat over him.  Did that Super Evil Dark Swan just stuff pillows under the blanket to fool the dimmie of Storybrooke?

 

At the end of the previous episode, Belle found the bed empty.  We only got a few minutes in modern day Storybrooke in this episode (all-focused on Emma), so we don't know if Belle told anybody else yet.

 

Grannie noticed that the rose was re-forming and Belle saw it whole, so somebody in town knows.

[YaddaYadda]

I think we're on the same day as 5x03.

[Mathius]

OK, I have to disagree with everyone saying Snow and Charming were stupid to tell Arthur everything. The whole point was to see what he did with that info, to see if he was trustworthy or not. If he was, fine, but if not, they were prepared to subdue him, and even if he turned the tables, they had a backup plan for that because they had told Regina about all this and knew she and the rest would come to the rescue if needed. It was a perfectly sound plan.

 

Yet people are calling them stupid because this wasn't a conversation:

 

CHARMING: Wait! What if Arthur has magical brainwashing sand at his disposal?

 

SNOW: Ah, good point, guess we better not tell him anything.

 

Seriously, who anticipates things like that?  Snow and Charming are only human, guys, they're not omnipotent. 

Edited October 21, 2015 by Mathius

[KAOS Agent]

Who cares whether they factored in magic mind controlling sand? I can give you at least ten things that we've seen happen on this show that could be used against Snow & David beyond the Sands of Avalon, so no, you don't tell the guy everything. You tell him you've got the dagger and you're running from the Dark One. Make the fake dagger have Rumpelstiltskin's name on it still. There are a shit ton of ways to lead Arthur to the actions he took without telling him the truth. As for the backup, Regina & Robin weren't with Snow & David were they? So what if Arthur killed them or captured them and then glamoured a couple of people to look and act like them? Robin had that stupid clover, so it's not like you even need magic to pull the glamour thing off. What if he took their hearts and they were being controlled that way? Hook can take hearts due to a potion, so again no magic user needed there either, No one would know they needed rescuing. Snowing's plan involved a massive betrayal of their daughter and it's going to end very, very badly.

[FormerMod-a1]

Joking about sexuality?  Sarah Palin?  Really?  Yes, these are the off-topic posts we referred to in the mod note just a few posts before this one.  Stop it.  If you see something offensive report it, don't reply/engage.  Some posts since the last mod note have been removed.   Stay on topic of *this* episode, please.

 

Also, here's a kitten in a bunny costume.

 

[Shanna Marie]

Who cares whether they factored in magic mind controlling sand? I can give you at least ten things that we've seen happen on this show that could be used against Snow & David beyond the Sands of Avalon, so no, you don't tell the guy everything.

Yeah, given the number of things they've run into even just recently that might put them at a disadvantage, spilling everything to someone they were testing for trustworthiness was a bad idea. In very recent memory they've seen glamours fooling people into accepting fake identities, memory spells, and heart control. Plus, even if their plan to arrest Arthur had worked, did they really expect the entire kingdom, including the knights of the Round Table, the soldiers and guards, and the population in general, to go along with that? A bunch of outsiders shows up, one of them kills one of their knights after he accuses one of them of slaughtering his village, and then they arrest the king and claim he's a traitor, on the word of someone they've been told betrayed the king and who was exiled. Did they expect the people of Camelot to accept their word on that and let them arrest the king? What authority did they have to arrest a king within his own kingdom? Even without the magic sand, that plan was doomed to fail.

[Randomosity]

...it suits me quite well to just take a commercial ridden hour of escape into make believe... It is goofy escapism with a family of twisted characters that have nothing much to do with anything resembling substance or rationale.

 

This. I can't be bothered to get riled up about illogical things or inconsistencies; it's not like I was ever expecting this show to be 'Gone with the Wind' or 'Schindler's List'. It's frivolous and entertaining, and that's all I ever asked for it to be.

[regularlyleaded]

Seriously, who anticipates things like that?  Snow and Charming are only human, guys, they're not omnipotent.

I think you're missing the point. Snowing’s foolishness doesn’t stem from a failure to anticipate magical ambush. It’s about how information is power and Snowing foolishly handed the information they had concerning Emma being the Dark One directly over to Arthur for no good reason. Their plan of protecting Emma by exposing her secret all in a test of trust was dumb. 

Snowing’s best chance for keeping Emma safe was to keep her being The Dark One a secret, and instead of keeping that secret, Snowing hand that over on a silver platter to Arthur when it was entirely unnecessary. You don’t protect a secret by handing it right over to a potential enemy because then you’ve just handed them the upper hand. If your target is indeed a foe and they slip the trap, you’ve just shot yourself in the foot because you’ve already exposed that which your were trying to protect to begin with. Not only is your target gone, but you've also given them the information that you were trying to protect as well. And wouldn’t you know, that’s exactly what happened with Arthur. 

 

You simply don't test a potential foe's trustworthiness by handing over your deepest darkest secret to them and then hoping it all works out. If that's your big plan, then you pretty much deserve to get played.

If you’re going to bait someone you use false information. You only need to feed them information that will get them to fall into your trap. The information just has to sound or look real enough to fool your target and lure them into the trap, but you don't tell them the truth because that would be dumb and gains you nothing. Snowing could’ve had a fake dagger with Pongo’s name on it for all Arthur would’ve cared because the point was to get him to believe that Snow had the dagger and to see if he would follow her into the trap and show his true colors. So it was completely unnecessary, foolhardy, and somewhat arrogant for Snowing to tell Arthur the truth regarding Emma being The Dark One.

 

Snowing share some of the blame here because of their own bad planning if Arthur manages to do something to Emma. Snowing tried to get clever by putting together this ambush when, ironically, I think their best plan of action would’ve been to keep playing dumb and do nothing. Snowing had the upper hand because they had been tipped off about Arthur’s machinations. They could’ve taken a smarter information gathering approach to find out his game plan. Let Arthur go sniffing around in circles, plant false information to misdirect him, do your own covert recon to uncover his plan, and meanwhile they could’ve given Emma and Regina enough time to figure out how to get Merlin out of that tree and hopefully The Dark One out of Emma.

But, honestly, all this is moot because the reason it played out like this is because PLOT and the writers wanted to spring some twists on the audience. They wanted the audience to think that Charming was being played and to spring that “twist” on us at the end that Snowing was actually entrapping Arthur, and then follow that up with yet another “twist” of Arthur spring his own trap on Snowing. It was never about Snowing being dumb or smart. It was, and always will be, about PLOT.

Edited October 21, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[Camera One]

But, honestly, all this is moot because the reason it played out like this is because PLOT and the writers wanted to spring some twists on the audience. They wanted the audience to think that Charming was being played and to spring that “twist” on us at the end that Snowing was actually entrapping Arthur, and then follow that up with yet another “twist” of Arthur spring his own trap on Snowing. It was never about Snowing being dumb or smart. It was, and always will be, about PLOT.

 

Exactly.  Having Charming tell Arthur everything basically ruled out in the minds of viewers the possibility that Charming had any doubts about Arthur, making the "twist" all the more surprising at the end.  To me, that purpose was so blatant and obvious that I can't put myself into story enough to draw any further conclusions.

[YaddaYadda]

Actually, I didn't get the whole let's take the fake dagger to the Dark One's vault in order to protect it. That made no sense, especially since it seemed that Lancelot hadn't told Snow about the spell protecting the altar. Was it a plot point to take Snow where she got her heart crushed in her vision? Are they foreshadowing something?

 

And it's not like the ruse would've held since the dagger is fake.  But this really seems to be a pattern with Snowing. They try to help Emma and end up screwing her over.

Edited October 21, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

So how did Snow and Charming get a fake dagger? Did they have Regina magically conjure one up for them? But wasn't she off hiding the real dagger all day? 

Edited October 21, 2015 by Curio

[Serena]

So how did Snow and Charming get a fake dagger? Did they have Regina magically conjure one up for them? But wasn't she off hiding the real dagger all day? 

They told her about their plan, so during that same off-screen conversation she might have conjured up the fake dagger for them.

[Mitch]

I wa with Arthur for a while, It thought we might have a villain like S1 who had a somewhat ...in Once terms, relatable motivation... Regina- keeping her secret and the Curse intact..because of revenge and the whole town would tear her apart if it breaks, and Rumple-keeping "my power and never again being a victim and finding my kid. " Like S1 Regina and Rump, he was not magical so he had to do everything by manipulation, force of personality and trickery. Aliances could be made and unmade, heroes and villains could be played and be the players..etc. But no we have to have stupid Magic Dust!!!

 

I still like that he is not out to take over the realms, or have Evil Cleavage..plus he is hot in a masculine way but come on Once you were on to something good before you got magic lazy again.

[Curio]

The magic Avalon dust is similar to the magical Dark Curse in Season 1 that forced people to behave differently in Storybrooke and forget their past motivations. 

[ShadowFacts]

I wa with Arthur for a while, It thought we might have a villain like S1 who had a somewhat ...in Once terms, relatable motivation... Regina- keeping her secret and the Curse intact..because of revenge and the whole town would tear her apart if it breaks, and Rumple-keeping "my power and never again being a victim and finding my kid. " Like S1 Regina and Rump, he was not magical so he had to do everything by manipulation, force of personality and trickery. Aliances could be made and unmade, heroes and villains could be played and be the players..etc. But no we have to have stupid Magic Dust!!!

 

I still like that he is not out to take over the realms, or have Evil Cleavage..plus he is hot in a masculine way but come on Once you were on to something good before you got magic lazy again.

 

I stepped away from this show at the end of 4A, there were just too many things I couldn't abide.  Tried to see the premiere of this season but fell asleep.  I watched this episode and have read the comments, and sadly I still don't think I can handle it, because of the same old, same old.  (And it didn't help that Lancelot was being engulfed by the smoke monster from Lost.)  Still with the curses, memory wipes, not-completely-consensual relationships, and magic that can overcome goodness/smarts.  Oh, and Emma the Dark One as a mope?  That's disappointing.  I know I'm seeing things out of context, but Camelot isn't drawing me back and the core characters are being outdone by dopey magic. 

[Shanna Marie]

So it was completely unnecessary, foolhardy, and somewhat arrogant for Snowing to tell Arthur the truth regarding Emma being The Dark One.

Yes, it was extremely arrogant of them to risk everything -- to risk Emma -- on the assumption that their plan was utterly foolproof and couldn't possibly go wrong.

 

But even if the kingdom hadn't been under the influence of the magic dust, could they really have counted on all the soldiers to side with them against their king, in a case of their word against his?

 

Could they be absolutely certain that Arthur was who he said he was? Look how often they've been tricked by glamour spells. Could he have been shady because he was a powerful wizard pretending to be Arthur while the real Arthur was locked up? Considering that glamour spells like that seem to happen every other week around them, they'd have to consider that a possibility and should have acted accordingly.

 

Shouldn't they have known about the magic dust? Lancelot knew about it when Guinevere got it. He also knew that Camelot had been transformed since he last saw it, and he seemed to be pretty sure that wasn't because the sword really had been fixed and everything was okay now, since he still didn't trust Arthur. So shouldn't he have warned the Charmings that there might be magic like that in play?

[snarkybelle]

Yes, it was extremely arrogant of them to risk everything -- to risk Emma -- on the assumption that their plan was utterly foolproof and couldn't possibly go wrong.

 

These are the same parents that put Emma, their newborn, in a magical wardrobe.  Meanwhile there were other methods to get to another dimension that other more resourceful people (Hook, Zelena) have been able to obtain.  They didn't even try to outrun the curse on a ship or something.  They let "hope" do the work for them and put all their faith in a "savior" prophecy coming from Rumpelstiltskin of all people.  I feel bad for baby Neal. He's too young to be emancipated from his parents.  The Charmings are not the sharpest tool in the shed but at least they are pretty.  

[YaddaYadda]

They let "hope" do the work for them and put all their faith in a "savior" prophecy coming from Rumpelstiltskin of all people.

 

It's so much more than that though.

 

It's the prophecy recipe, you know. Your baby is the Savior, your baby will break the curse in 28 years, you have to save her...this is what it's about. 

 

Emma's life was fucked up because of a prophecy. They didn't prepare tons for this because it was a prophecy, and Snow was supposed to go with her. 

 

Seer to Rumple: You're gonna find your son...

Merlin to Arthur: You shall be king!

Merlin to Emma: Don't touch the damned sword!

 

Prophecies suck all kinds.

[Zuleikha]

Where does Percival's story about being a little boy who saw Regina take down his village fit exactly? Is he the oldest child knight ever?

Yeah, that one just doesn't work. Percival can't have been the boy, so he was either lying to Regina for plot reasons yet unknown or there was a huge continuity screw up.

 

The other timeline issues, though, I think line up. The curse froze time in the Enchanted Forest and an unknown amount of kingdoms adjacent. When time resumed, the ogres quickly ravaged the lands because they were empty of everyone except what the Cora dome protected (pretty sure Mulan says something to this effect). 

 

The darkness that attacked Lancelot wasn't the untethered darkness that attacked Regina and then Emma because the darkness was tethered to Rumplestiltskin. That's why Guinevere was able to defeat it with fire. It was presumably some magical defense mechanism that Rumple or a previous Dark One set up.

 

Merlin in the tree is an unknown quantity, so we don't know yet if Merlin's visit to Emma is a continuity glitch or something yet to be explained. 

 

I didn't mind Arthur using the sand on Guinevere because it was a villainous act and clearly coded as a villainous act. I think the actor playing Arthur is doing an amazing job of showing how his obsession with fixing Excalibur is destroying him. I think it's possible that we'll see Arthur redeemed. Pan, Cora, and King George are the only unredeemed villains (whose stories are over--we don't know the plan for Zelena yet), so the odds are in Arthur's favor. Heck, even Cora had a teeny moment of redemption with telling Regina that Regina would have been enough after the re-hearting.

 

I'm going to just fanwank that the fake dagger had to have Emma Swan's name on it because the spell that made it could only create an identical clone. Otherwise, yes, that was a gratuitous information leak. It does seem like Lancelot should have been more prepared for the Avalon sands being used since he seemed to know that the sands created Camelot.

 

Zelena and Merida both seem unnecessary for this story. Given the amount of characters who are necessary, I don't understand why the show writers brought them in. 

[Mitch]

I think Zelena is going to matter in the second half of the season so they have her there on the backburner, like soaps used to do. However, they didn't need to drag her to Camelot she would have been just left in Storybrooke..there was nothing that took place in Regina and her argment last week that couldnt have happened in current time in Storybrooke.

 

Merida, well, agree, she is dull and not needed. But they have to throw a Disney character in and I can't wait until the adventure of Merida, Belle, and Red... speaking off and isnt it about time they say that people can leave SB, just the outside world can't see it, so they could explain that Red and August are shaking up in the next town over where there are no stupid villains to come up with dumb schemes.

[Mari]

Yeah, that one just doesn't work. Percival can't have been the boy, so he was either lying to Regina for plot reasons yet unknown or there was a huge continuity screw up.

.

I don't think he was lying about Regina burning down a village, simply because Regina seemed to think it was true. It's possible he wasn't the boy in the story, though. Edited October 21, 2015 by Mari

[Mathius]

He may have been speaking of being a "boy" metaphorically.  After all, he said the boy had "returned to his village", so it may have been him as a knight coming from Camelot and visiting his family.  To see his family and childhood home burn would very well make him feel like just a frightened little boy, it's an obvious psychological thing to happen.

[Lieutenant]

So I was rewatching the episode tonight, and a line David said kinda struck me funny.  When they are in Granny's with Arthur handcuffed in a booth, he says "Arthur wanted to use Excalibur for evil, but that doesn't mean it can't be used for good yadda yadda yadda..."  Am I the only one not buying that line?  Arthur intends to wipe out the darkness (Whatever that means.  Certainly does't sound like an evil goal.  Sounds like something Charmz would say on any given day.) and make Camelot great.  He's said nothing about killing/harming Emma, other than forcing her to reforge the sword.  I truly don't think he gives a flying fig about Emma one way or the other.  He's desperate to get his damn sword fixed so he can get on with his life; being a great king, yes, but also helping his kingdom achieve greatness.  Is he obsessed, misguided, and has seriously misplaced priorities?  Sure.  No argument there.  But this kinda bugs me about Snowing, or at least the writing for them.  In this instance, I don't think there's a truly evil guy - yet.  But I guess if it's not what team hero has on their agenda, then by default it's the evil option?  I guess I get frustrated, because having cross purposes with someone doesn't always make that purpose or person EVIL or bad.  Two people can have differing but equally valid/legitimate goals.

[YaddaYadda]

But this kinda bugs me about Snowing, or at least the writing for them.

 

Snowing have always had a bit of a holier than thou attitude.

 

I understand the impulse of wanting to protect your child. At the same time, let's not pretend that these two haven't given Arthur everything he needed to know about the Dark One, including the fact that the dagger is in Camelot.

[tennisgurl]

This show has always struggled with shades of grey, in my opinion. Either something or someone is all good, or all bad. Snow killed someone? Its EVIL. Regina saved the town? Its GOOD. It didn't really make Snow evil, but what she did was portrayed as the WRONG choice, no one saying that what she did might have been necessary. No messy moral questions.  They have characters that turn from good to bad, but there is rarely any kind of in between. Heroes and villains swap roles, but there is no villain who is kind of good, or hero that is a little bad. At least, not anymore really.  

 

Its why I was disappointed that they made Arthur into such a villain. It seemed that, at first, he was was a basically heroic character, but he was working for a different goal that Snowing and company. He did morally ambiguous things, but for a greater good. Now, he just seems that he is obsessed and crazy, and has already crossed the line of no return (what did mind screwing Gwen do to save the kingdom?). You could make a case that his is legitimately trying to do good still, in his addled mind, but it makes the thing a lot less grey.

Edited October 22, 2015 by tennisgurl

[KAOS Agent]

I think the problem is that Arthur wants the dagger and plans to end the Darkness with a bit of murder on the side. That's not exactly heroic. What was apparent to me from the first was that David never questioned what giving the dagger to Arthur might mean. He didn't even ask Arthur what he planned to do with such a powerful weapon. He went right to Snow and said they should give it to him. He didn't stop to think about what exactly it might mean to reforge the sword and snuff the out the Darkness. Does that kill Emma? If it didn't kill her, would she be hurt in some way? I guess after they stopped fighting this was discussed offscreen, but still Dave's a huge idiot right from the start.

 

I'm not entirely sure the writers intended people to think Arthur was as much of a villain as we seem to think he is. The whole consent issue has always gone over their heads, so I think we are supposed to see a man driven mad by a prophesy and choosing power over love. In their minds, he's completely redeemable once he sees the error of his ways. 

[Serena]

These are the same parents that put Emma, their newborn, in a magical wardrobe.  Meanwhile there were other methods to get to another dimension that other more resourceful people (Hook, Zelena) have been able to obtain.  They didn't even try to outrun the curse on a ship or something.  They let "hope" do the work for them and put all their faith in a "savior" prophecy coming from Rumpelstiltskin of all people.  I feel bad for baby Neal. He's too young to be emancipated from his parents.  The Charmings are not the sharpest tool in the shed but at least they are pretty.

Answering in the All Seasons thread.