S09.E05: The Girl Who Died

[WatchrTina]

Well that was interesting.  I didn't think it was a great episode for all the reasons already mentioned but I had NO IDEA that Maisie Williams was getting a recurring role.  Depending on how Ashildr reacts to immortality she could end up being the "big bad" of this season.  There was certainly a hint of "something" in that last look at the camera.

 

Highlight for me was the flashback to 10 and Donna.  I like that they addressed the recycling of a face from earlier in the series.

 

So . . . there was a prophecy in an earlier episode about a hybrid (thank you ApathyMonger):

 

 

"There was a prophecy, Doctor, on your own world. It spoke of a hybrid creature. Two great warrior races forced together to create a warrior greater than either. Is that what you ran from Doctor, your part in the coming of the hybrid?"

 

The use of that word "Hybrid" to describe Ashildr was VERY specific so that is a VERY interesting observation.  The Doctor's case of deja vu also makes me think that there may be a "flashback" to some point in the far distant future where the Doctor (possibly 10 or 11) has already encountered what Ashlar will become.  This is all just fraught with possibilities!

Edited October 20, 2015 by WatchrTina

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Ripples And A Pond?
The Doctor remembers a familiar face he once saved, but what about another familiar face he left behind?

[Llywela]

One thing I did...not so much like as appreciate, was the Doctor and Clara's conversation about his 'duty of care', although I don't think it really got to the heart of the issue - probably can't, because of external reasons. The Doctor tells Clara he has a duty of care toward her. She protests that she never asked for that. He then sidesteps the issue by saying he keeps asking himself 'what if something happens to you?' This kind of cuts to the heart of a central problem with this relationship dynamic, which is that the writing team really, desperately wants for Clara to be the Doctor's equal, but the trouble is that it can never be an equal relationship, not in that sense, because the Doctor, as a Time Lord a good couple of thousand years old, has abilities and knowledge and centuries of hard-earned experience that no 20-something human can ever hope to match, no matter how strong-willed and brave and sensible. He is effectively the captain of his ship - he takes these people away from their lives into dangerous situations, so yes, that makes him responsible for what happens to them, even if they made the choice to go, just as the captain of a ship is responsible for the safety and wellbeing of his crew. The companion doesn't need to be the same as the Doctor, and, in fact, shouldn't be - both for practical reasons, because trying to make them that way is implausible, and for narrative reasons, because the story is stronger and more consistent when the companion has a clearly defined personality that's all their own and provides contrast to the Doctor, rather than competing with him.

 

I liked that when he talked about there being a time when the memory of her would be unbearable, it wasn't a 'Clara is so special' moment, but was related to the losses he has already experienced throughout his very long life, to which hers would be just another in a very long line, especially painful only for being the most recent.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Llywela

[HauntedBathroom]

That was a fairly ho-hum episode, I don't watch Games of Thrones, so I have no idea if this girl is something important. I mean, she did the job required, but I wouldn't go out of my way to see her in something else based on this episode. Presumably she'll be more impressive when she runs into the Doctor after 700 years of immortality.

 

So it was a fairly dull episode, and the unexpected appearance of the soapdodger Doctor and his fishwife companion did nothing to make it appeal to me. I doubt I'll be in a hurry to rewatch this one when the DVD arrives.

[alias1]

Haunted Bathroom, I have the same opinion about Ashildr.  I don't watch Game of Thrones and nothing about this girl seemed really special here so I don't get the adulation.   Another thing that really bothered me is the speaking of baby.  I hated it (and yes, I know 11 did it and I hated it there, too). I guess it's Moffat being cute.  And really, what baby has thoughts like the doctor was spouting?   I'm reserving judgement on this arc until next week, but I have to say I fell asleep during the initial airing of this episode and had to watch it all over again the next day.

[ganesh]

The writing is better on GOT and her character basically has the 'underdog, down and out part of the society, but is smart enough to learn how to survive,' so you naturally root for someone like that. She is making something of herself, in a way, in a place where women are marginalized.

 

It's not like she's the breakout actor on the show. They're all good.

[ApathyMonger]

The writing is better on GOT and her character basically has the 'underdog, down and out part of the society, but is smart enough to learn how to survive,' so you naturally root for someone like that. She is making something of herself, in a way, in a place where women are marginalized.

 

It's not like she's the breakout actor on the show. They're all good.

 

For people looking for more of Maisie Williams, I'd suggest the movie The Falling. Came out in the UK earlier this year, but I don't think there's any sign of a US release.

[Llywela]

Maisie Williams was also in the mini-series The Secret of Crickley Hall, which was pretty good.

 

I belatedly remembered the most important thing that struck me during the viewing of this episode, which was that I caught a glimpse of the filming of this episode - by chance, as usual. I'd forgotten all about it until I saw the location - filmed at the medieval village at Cosmeston. I remember walking around the lake and seeing that access to the medieval village was blocked due to film crew, caught a few glimpses of the actors and crew as I walked past. That was this episode.

[tv-talk]

On the scale of Capaldi episodes definitely liked this one. They've backed off Clara and now the Doctor is finally coming into himself which makes for better Doctor Who. This season has definitely been better than last, so that's good at least.

 

The end sets up Maisie Williams to be on the show over the span of several more Doctors. She's going to be around the show quite a bit in the coming years one would think. Because obviously if she dies she wont actually be dead of course, not really.

Edited October 21, 2015 by tv-talk

[Starchild]

The Doctor tells Clara he has a duty of care toward her. She protests that she never asked for that. He then sidesteps the issue by saying he keeps asking himself 'what if something happens to you?' This kind of cuts to the heart of a central problem with this relationship dynamic, which is that the writing team really, desperately wants for Clara to be the Doctor's equal

I've had a terrible thought: they want Clara to be more than just the Doctor's equal, they want Clara to be the Doctor. Between the demonstration of her super-competence, his more than typical concern about her, and the flashback to Pompeii underlining that the Doctor can subconsciously choose his face during a regen, I have this terrible feeling that Clara will die at some point, and the Doctor's grief will culminate in him regenerating into her form.

 

Guys, if Jenna Coleman is the next Doctor, I may have to sit out that regeneration and wait for the next one. She's insufferable enough as a companion, I couldn't stomach her as the actual Doctor.

[Bruinsfan]

So the Mire have immortality technology?  That would seem to be a big deal right?  I mean, no need to be afraid of a dragon if you have an army of immortal warriors.

Didn't the Doctor say "barring accident" about the Mire healing chip? Which would imply Ashildr perhaps becoming unaging/able to recover from significant injury, but not being unkillable.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Bruinsfan

[Mabinogia]

I have this terrible feeling that Clara will die at some point, and the Doctor's grief will culminate in him regenerating into her form.

 

 

And thus my love affair with Doctor Who would end. I would love a female doctor, though not written by the current team, but I cannot stomach smug ass Clara being even more smug because she's now actually the Doctor instead of just thinking she is.

[Kromm]

I've had a terrible thought: they want Clara to be more than just the Doctor's equal, they want Clara to be the Doctor. Between the demonstration of her super-competence, his more than typical concern about her, and the flashback to Pompeii underlining that the Doctor can subconsciously choose his face during a regen, I have this terrible feeling that Clara will die at some point, and the Doctor's grief will culminate in him regenerating into her form.

 

Guys, if Jenna Coleman is the next Doctor, I may have to sit out that regeneration and wait for the next one. She's insufferable enough as a companion, I couldn't stomach her as the actual Doctor.

You may have a terrible feeling, but I'm sorry to say (or perhaps happily, since you don't WANT it to happen) that it's probably got to be a wrong feeling.  She's leaving the show. And it's not some rumor, it's confirmed, and she's already on another show.

 

Plus in my opinion, even were she NOT confirmed as leaving, it's just not a road this show would ever take. Sure they made The Master a woman. Sure they've reused actors in different roles--including the face the Doctor himself is using. Sure the Companions frequently seem to take over the show since the modern version started a decade ago. But this just feels like a place they wouldn't go. Not only the Companions, but the Doctor himself, is disposable on this show. I can't see what would ever compel them to recycle one into the other.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Kromm

[Bruinsfan]

Well, I can envision at least one scenario but as Moffat seems to be happily partnered with Sue Vertue I don't think it applies in this case.

[elle]

Didn't the Doctor say "barring accident" about the Mire healing chip? Which would imply Ashildr perhaps becoming unaging/able to recover from significant injury, but not being unkillable.

The healing chip must have a youth elixir attached or at least, one stays the age the first time it is used.  That is the only way I can think of Ashildr could stay young.  (though I still don't understand how and why Captain Jack is immortal, done by Bad Wolf Rose, but why only him?)

 

And to the comment that the name Ashildr sounds so very LotR, it does on its own but also sounds very close to Isildur, the King of Gondor.

[Kromm]

The healing chip must have a youth elixir attached or at least, one stays the age the first time it is used.  That is the only way I can think of Ashildr could stay young.  (though I still don't understand how and why Captain Jack is immortal, done by Bad Wolf Rose, but why only him?)

Current real world theories about aging chalk it up to cell damage. It's actually quite in keeping with current theories that if there was no cell damage you basically wouldn't visibly age (past maturity at least).

[Bruinsfan]

I imagine it's nannite-based cellular repair similar to what went on in "The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances," only programmed to work correctly for human beings.

[Starchild]

You may have a terrible feeling, but I'm sorry to say (or perhaps happily, since you don't WANT it to happen) that it's probably got to be a wrong feeling.  She's leaving the show. And it's not some rumor, it's confirmed, and she's already on another show.

 

Plus in my opinion, even were she NOT confirmed as leaving, it's just not a road this show would ever take. Sure they made The Master a woman. Sure they've reused actors in different roles--including the face the Doctor himself is using. Sure the Companions frequently seem to take over the show since the modern version started a decade ago. But this just feels like a place they wouldn't go. Not only the Companions, but the Doctor himself, is disposable on this show. I can't see what would ever compel them to recycle one into the other.

I do hope you're right, but even if Capaldi doesn't regenerate into Coleman after this season, it could still happen in a later season. The door is open.

[HauntedBathroom]

The door is open for the Doctor to regenerate into Rose bloody Tyler as well. If that didn't happen under RTD and his chav obsession, I don't see Jenna becoming the Doctor with Moffat or his replacement.

[Kromm]

The door is open for the Doctor to regenerate into Rose bloody Tyler as well. If that didn't happen under RTD and his chav obsession, I don't see Jenna becoming the Doctor with Moffat or his replacement.

It seems like a pattern with first Rose, then Amy Pond, and now Clara, that there's always some contingent of fandom that turns on them, thinks they're taking over the show, and comes up with some often very complicated fears/theories about how they're going to make the show even worse.

 

Heck, arguably the same grousing happened about River Song, and she wasn't even a proper companion. 

[HauntedBathroom]

I suppose if you hate a character, it's not a ridiculous jump to you to assume they're going to eat the series whole.

[Starchild]

Ha, that may be true. But I think the feelings get amplified by what seems to be the modern Doctors' penchant for turning the current companion into a special snowflake, the most special companion ever. That didn't happen in the classic series. Of course, those Doctors didn't self-examine the way these ones do. I think part of the problem is only having one companion at a time, supporting the modern Doctors' tendency to fixate. Having multiple companions simultaneously through the series is a way to avoid that. Rory's presence did tend to divert the Doctor's obsession of Amy a bit.

[AudienceofOne]

I really liked Rose, for example, but still can't watch a lot of RTD era episodes because of the awful Rose stuff crammed into it. I think I'm the only person whose reaction to the Bad Wolf Beach scene was projectile vomiting. But at least I could kind of see what RTD was going for and it wouldn't have been so annoying if he wasn't doing it in this particular televisual vehicle. The Doctor's attachment to Clara makes very little sense to me.

[Kromm]

I really liked Rose, for example, but still can't watch a lot of RTD era episodes because of the awful Rose stuff crammed into it. I think I'm the only person whose reaction to the Bad Wolf Beach scene was projectile vomiting. But at least I could kind of see what RTD was going for and it wouldn't have been so annoying if he wasn't doing it in this particular televisual vehicle. The Doctor's attachment to Clara makes very little sense to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Clara go to rather extraordinary lengths to save his life?  You know... the whole thing about splitting herself into a multitude of fragments all over his existence? Every time I see that "why does he care?" question, it's as if that's somehow been forgotten.

 

I'm not trying to argue that his connection/affection has been well written or even well acted. Just that "on paper" we've been given a pretty good reason (that just had to be better executed than it was).

[AudienceofOne]

And yet, Kromm, the text itself never acts as though she did that. The Doctor should still be running into other versions of her, they should talk about it, she should have an instinctive encyclopedic knowledge of his life. And yet... she doesn't. She behaves like any other schoolteacher running round the universe with the Doctor.

 

I'm not trying to argue that his connection/affection has been well written or even well acted. Just that "on paper" we've been given a pretty good reason (that just had to be better executed than it was).

 

 

Execution does matter. Audiences are too smart to buy into things they've heard rather than seen. And that particular episode was TERRIBLE as well.

[Llywela]

Clara isn't the first companion to risk/potentially sacrifice her own life to save the Doctor's. ;-) It's just that for most of them, it wasn't something anyone made a fuss about, just something that happened in the course of an adventure, which they then got on with, rather than having half a season of build-up as the end-of-season cliffhanger.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Llywela

[Kromm]

Clara isn't the first companion to risk/potentially sacrifice her own life to save the Doctor's. ;-) 

It wasn't a statement she was. But the comments leading up to that were wondering why should The Doctor care about her.  Well, if we don't want a version of The Doctor who's ONLY a total user, then someone going to extreme lengths to save you usually results in you having, as The Doctor himself puts it "a duty of care". The fact that the scripts and acting have failed to convince us the feeling is really there is the failure, not the actual motive we've been given for the care.

 

The original statement, more precisely, was "The Doctor's attachment to Clara makes very little sense to me". Well this has been about the fact that I think it DOES make logical sense because of that motive, but it's just that it's not convincing in it's execution.  That's all. If it feels like they're just going through the motions, because that's what the scripts say... then that's a failure.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Kromm

[Llywela]

Oh yeah, it's just that Clara's status as 'the Impossible Girl' gets trotted out a lot as a reason for her being more special than any other companion, as if it should make the Doctor love her more than he's ever loved anyone, so I always feel obliged to point out that she is far from the first person to have saved his life - and that her saving his life doesn't actually obligate him to love her, only to be grateful. I'd expect him to look out for her safety anyway, whether she'd saved him or not - and he always has taken responsibility for his companions' safety, whether they've saved his life first or not. His 'duty of care', as the effective captain of the ship, applies in any circumstance.

 

I agree that the execution of the Doctor's relationship with Clara has been very unconvincing.

 

But I think we're getting off-topic for this episode thread now.

[WatchrTina]

So meanwhile, back on topic . . . the more I think about the (almost) immortality device the more I hate it.  The aliens in this episode were presented as a bit bumbling in the final scene.  Someone with that kind of technology ought to be a bit more bad-ass.  And wouldn't the universe be slightly over-run with very very long lived members of that race if they have that technology?  I'll overlook it because it sets Ashildr up to be an interesting recurring character but I don't like it -- it doesn't fit well inside the "Who-verse" in my opinion.  

 

Hmmmm, maybe the members of the Highlander-verse have been running around the universe chopping off the heads of these "immortals" in order to keep the population down.  In the end, there can be only one!

Edited October 26, 2015 by WatchrTina

[elle]

Hmmmm, maybe the members of the Highlander-verse have been running around the universe chopping off the heads of these "immortals" in order to keep the population down.  In the end, there can be only one!

back off topic...I'm sure that we are not the only ones who have thought about a Highlander crossover.

[John Potts]

You're not. I thought - "I wonder if it could heal a decapitation. Hey, maybe that's how immortals are born!"

[Bruinsfan]

I suppose if you hate a character, it's not a ridiculous jump to you to assume they're going to eat the series whole.

I've seen it happen twice with the same character (Spike) and just found out he would have appeared on Firefly too if it had lasted long enough. Or not been cancelled in the nick of time, from another perspective. My tolerance for show-eating Fonzies has long since been worn away.

[BizBuzz]

Didn't the Doctor say ... barring accidents, she may now be functionally immortal.

 

So technically, she could die?

[Llywela]

Didn't the Doctor say ... barring accidents, she may now be functionally immortal.

 

So technically, she could die?

Well, I suppose technically the distinction is that she could be killed. She just won't die of natural causes or illness.

[WatchrTina]

So . . . just like the Elves of Middle Earth!  They do not wither from age nor disease but a well-placed orc-sword will do the trick (RIP Haldir.)

 

I smell another cross-over happening.

[foreverevolving]

I really liked Rose, for example, but still can't watch a lot of RTD era episodes because of the awful Rose stuff crammed into it. I think I'm the only person whose reaction to the Bad Wolf Beach scene was projectile vomiting. But at least I could kind of see what RTD was going for and it wouldn't have been so annoying if he wasn't doing it in this particular televisual vehicle. The Doctor's attachment to Clara makes very little sense to me.

SOO not the only one.. I hated that scene too! I liked Rose with 9 (and the trio with Jack is only second to 10 & Donna), but couldn't stand Rose with 10.. her none stop popping over during 10 run was just.. no! and her getting to have 10.5 was, meh. In my head canon 10.5 dumped Rose and ended up with someone else.

[forum4idiots]

i just hope ishildr is not the skin lady (remember her, the last human).  anything but that. 

Edited November 1, 2015 by lovebug1975

[Rhetorica]

Lady Cassandra! I didn't think of that. Oh my...

[John Potts]

lovebug1975 I just hope Ashildr is not the skin lady (remember her, the last human).

 

Unlikely, because that would require us to believe Maisie Wlliams will grow up to look like Zoe Wannamaker (who not only voiced Cassandra, she also played the younger, still-had-a-body Cassandra in her second appearance).

[TobinAlbers]

In my head canon 10.5 dumped Rose and ended up with someone else.

I really wanted 10.5 to end up with Donna to watch over her to make sure that her head explosion never happened. Or if it did, he'd be able to contact 10 to come help. 10 would've somehow cloaked 10.5's face from Donna so she wouldn't recognize it and trigger her memories and cause her brain melting. 10.5 would've 'learned' all he needed about being a better Time Lord by taking care of and protecting Donna. Donna would've known 10.5 as her BFF 'she's known forever but can't remember where she met him it's been so long and the memory is fuzzy....'