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S12.E04: Old Time Rock And Roll

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I don't give a shit about Jo, but she should check her boo's file since Alex is the one who fucking lied about having testicular cancer and being left with one ball in his essay to get into the program. Talk about fabricating an illness to get browning points to move ahead...Yeah, I remember that, I died laughing at the time. Her jealousy is annoying. She lived in a fucking car, homeless and got through med school, she should be able to go toe to toe with Stephanie and anyone else. She has skills, nothing tells me that she's a flake and isn't a surgeon at heart, nothing yet. However, what do buy is Jo being mistrustful of Alex's commitment or feeling less than since she has very valid fears of abandonment.

 

So the show needs to stop creating an issue between she and Stephanie and just have some good old fashioned competition.  These two haven't even put in the years of the Mer/Cris relationship to be having these issue this soon, please. There hasn't been enough screen time between the two for it to even seem like they are true friends. I don't give a shit what Jo thinks about Stephanie's character or that they seem like they aren't on speaking terms any longer. Am I suppose to care? I don't get why I would?

 

Just give me an ongoing good story for Stephanie. Still don't care about Amelia and I may almost be on board with Maggie's new hook up. Almost because if it isn't going anywhere interesting, then why invest.

 

All I could think of at the end was poor Callie, she's getting screwed again, isn't she?

I don't care anything about the surgeon who "killed" Derek (eye roll). Please, was she even the surgeon who was in charge? As I remember, it didn't even seem like she was the surgeon in charge. The other doctors were sexist, so I guess she could have stolen Derek and taken him for the test without the other doctor's knowledge. But please, she's gonna be blamed for that? They just wouldn't listen to her and I don't think she had the rank to demand that they did. Then, I think I also remember that the hospital wasn't a trauma center of something like that. They didn't have the facilities that SG had I definitely remember that in the dialogue. 

Edited by represent
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.Yeah, I remember that, I died laughing at the time. Her jealousy is annoying. She lived in a fucking car, homeless and got through med school, she should be able to go toe to toe with Stephanie and anyone else. She has skills, nothing tells me that she's a flake and isn't a surgeon at heart, nothing yet. However, what do buy is Jo being mistrustful of Alex's commitment or feeling less than since she has very valid fears of abandonment.

When Jo was first introduced she was all of these things. She was capable, smart and confident. Since then though Shonda has lost complete interest in her though and now she just appears in episodes to service characters in need of propping (Stephanie) a girlfriend (Alex) or a punch bag (Meredith)

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When Jo was first introduced she was all of these things. She was capable, smart and confident. Since then though Shonda has lost complete interest in her though and now she just appears in episodes to service characters in need of propping (Stephanie) a girlfriend (Alex) or a punch bag (Meredith)

We pretty much feel the same way except I feel this way about Stephanie.  Used for that annoying ass couple of April and Jackson, now pops up every now  and again to listen to Jo's problems and give Amelia someone to mentor when she's not allowing Owen to swallow her head whole.  

 

You see, I don't need characters to have connections to the main players, I really don't. And from the very beginning I surely never needed them all to be connected to Meredith Grey for me to take interest. 

 

I'd like it if Callie's new girlfriend had no connection to Meredith, because now I'm thinking this really isn't Callie's story anymore. So now I'm not so interested. The actress is pretty though and based on what she showed when Derek died, I think she act so...

Edited by represent

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We pretty much feel the same way except I feel this way about Stephanie.  Used for that annoying ass couple of April and Jackson, now pops up every now  and again to listen to Jo's problems and give Amelia someone to mentor when she's not allowing Owen to swallow her head whole.

That last line made me laugh. I feel Stephanie gets a lot more screentime then Jo but that's a positive of not being part of a ship on the show. Stephanie's screentime has given her career development and established camaraderie with many different characters. Jo has been relegated to Alex since the beginning of last season.

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Also, Stephanie's sickle cell trial story seems more plausible than Jo's homeless foster child story.

 

I hope the actresses in real life are laughing and bonding over how contrived their respective back stories are.

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I hope the actresses in real life are laughing and bonding over how contrived their respective back stories are.

Funny you should say that because I actually found Jerrikka Hinton to be quite smug and encouraging of the negativity towards Jo on her twitter chat this evening.

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Having finally seen the full episode I can't say I'm too shocked at Jo's attitude towards Stephanie. She and Alex both acknowledged her manipulating the system before so it's obviously been on Jo's mind that she was doing it. I think she just felt her story about being ill came at a way too convenient time (I did too to be honest) and it got her out of trouble and also an invite to the dinner party she'd been saying she wanted to go too earlier. Jo may have been wrong to not believe her but Stephanie didn't confirm she was wrong. She just confirmed that's what she'd done.

 

Telling Amelia was lame but I don't think it was done out of pure spite . She believed Stephanie was lying and was annoyed Amelia believed her and was once again getting ahead. Amelia believed Jo right away so I don't see her as much better in this scenario.

 

I feel for Jo I really do. It must be frustrating for her watching Stephanie get treated with such respect and get great career opportunities while Jo herself doesn't get anything. Maggie and Meredith disrespected her and then later wouldn't even let her scrub in. Meredith has previously praised Steph in front of Jo. Amelia too didn't want her working with brain patient and she more or less confirmed it was because she wasn't Stephanie. Jo hasn't been shown as less capable then Stephanie so I don't get what the other doctors have against her (other then Meredith's personal distaste that came out of nowhere last year).

Edited by Chas411
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I enjoyed this episode.

 

I stopped caring about Meredith and Derek a long time ago. Probably during the Bush years. So I'm ok with Meredith moving on, emotionally. I agree that it would be weird to see her banging some intern in an office at the hospital this season.

 

It is a terrible cliche and has been done to death on this show, but I loved Maggie and DeLuca. That man is hot! I saw him with his shirt off and I said damn! Ok. Sorry about that. I just needed to get it out. The actor playing DeLuca did a good job of showing his good-natured bemusment to Maggie's high-school girl freak out. When she was yelling at him about boundaries and glitter, he just had this "she is trippin'" look on his face. I want them to stop characterizing Maggie like such a crazy person. That last scene with DeLuca was hot. She is a good looking woman when they are making her contort her face because she is losing her shit over some dumb thing that no one cares about.

 

I didn't mind the sudden backstory on Stephanie. She has not received a lot of attention. Jo definitely had more attention earlier, so it's ok for me if Stephanie gets some attention now. Jo's attempt at snitching was not cool. She'll probably be a total jerk to Stephanie for the next several episodes.

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Someone upthread mentioned the writer, but didn't give the name.

 

I was actually thinking during the episode that I didn't like the writing and would name check the credits.  (Forgot.)  Over on the Criminal Minds board, the hardcores are so familiar with the various writers and directors they can discuss what's to be expected from this one or that one.  I'm a film nerd and I've watched Grey's for so long, I bet I could get into it at that level.

*************************************

 

 

When a couple comes in and one of them is in mortal danger,

is it always necessary for the other one to die?

 

I like Maggie and I've stuck up for her in the past, but the next time she turns into a giddy fifth-grader, I'm gone.

 

Why do I find it so satisfying that Amelia did nothing to change my very (very) negative opinion of her?

 

Those brain slices morphing onto the cold cut platter made me bark-laugh.

 

.

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Someone upthread mentioned the writer, but didn't give the name.

 

I was actually thinking during the episode that I didn't like the writing and would name check the credits.  (Forgot.)  Over on the Criminal Minds board, the hardcores are so familiar with the various writers and directors they can discuss what's to be expected from this one or that one.  I'm a film nerd and I've watched Grey's for so long, I bet I could get into it at that level.

*************************************

 

 

When a couple comes in and one of them is in mortal danger,

is it always necessary for the other one to die?

 

I like Maggie and I've stuck up for her in the past, but the next time she turns into a giddy fifth-grader, I'm gone.

 

Why do I find it so satisfying that Amelia did nothing to change my very (very) negative opinion of her?

 

Those brain slices morphing onto the cold cut platter made me bark-laugh.

 

.

Austin Guzman wrote the ep.

 

It's hard to believe it wasn't his first one.

 

It was just so paint by numbers.

 

I don't mind happy Arizona, but Jessica Capshaw has to do better if I'm supposed to invest in it.  She just seemed to not be able to hit the proper notes with the older patient and the breakdown in the closet and it took me out of her scenes.  I will say she and Sarah Drew have good comedic chemistry so that's fun and the scene where Arizona was trying to and failing to be cool in front of Callie was good.

 

Jo has been a jerk before and her treatment of Stephanie is not new.  Nobody remembers when she happily told Stephanie that Jackson and April were married because she thought Stephanie was the one that filed the sexual harassment suit?  She wanted to hurt Stephanie because she thought she was the reason her and Alex might not be able to date and she did hurt her.  And Leah was the one who filed the suit.  So she was cruel for no reason.

 

I can't get over how it was an hour ep, but they could have just showed the last 2 minutes and we'd still be left with the same movement on storylines.  It was a nothing ep.

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I loved this episode - my favourite of the season. I think the combination of comedy and drama is being done nearly perfectly. I'm really loving the Arizona/April friendship and while everyone here hated it, I love the car scenes and I like Maggie.

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I have read post where some people are saying in effect the Jo’s and Stephanie’s behavior was not in keeping with their established characters.

 

I have to disagree.

 

Remember in S10 ep,14, when they instituted the non-fraternization  policy Jo and keeps accusing Stephanie of logging and anonymous complaint that brought it about, and Stephanie refuses to deny the accusation, even though it was Leah.  It seemed to establish that Stephanie refuses to defend herself against false accusations and Jo is quick to see the worse in people, another example of Jo seeing the worse in people is when she was given the chance to take down lesions during an early surgery with Alex during the episode on the day of Bailey’s wedding, and she failed at the task, she went to Arizona and complained that Alex had set her up for failure, so that if something went wrong he would have something to blame.  

 

Stephanie Both Jo and Stephanie are highly competitive and Jo has been feeling that Stephanie has been pulling ahead of her this season, and has seen Stephanie lie to get an advantage. Stephanie says in earlier in this episode Jo was so lucky to be able to go to the party and make friends with the heads of the departments and she would kill to get an invite.  Thus when Amelia tells Jo that both she and Stephanie are invited to the party, she believes that Stephanie has just lied her way into taking away the one chance she had begun to see she had to pull ahead, so just like she reported Alex to Arazona, she reported what she thought was Stephanie's lie to Amelia.  I think both of their behavior this episode is typical of their established personalities. 

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Remember in S10 ep,14, when they instituted the non-fraternization  policy Jo and keeps accusing Stephanie of logging and anonymous complaint that brought it about, and Stephanie refuses to deny the accusation, even though it was Leah.  It seemed to establish that Stephanie refuses to defend herself against false accusations and Jo is quick to see the worse in people

 

Stephanie shouldn't have had to prove that she didn't file the harassment complaint. Even if she wanted to, I can't imagine how she could have proven that she didn't. Either Amelia or Jo could have looked up the clinical trial. While there might not have been proof that Stephanie was one of the participants, the fact that there was a trial around the time Stephanie would have been five might have suggested that she was probably telling the truth. Also, as far as lies go, saying that one participated in a sickle cell trial probably wouldn't be the one that a person would make up on the spot. Stephanie's body language throughout the episode showed that she was disturbed about something. 

 

A few years into their residency, Jo and Stephanie don't have much of a friendship at all. I haven't been this anti-Jo since she got away with almost killing Chest Peckwell.

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Austin Guzman wrote the ep.

Well, clearly I have no ear for the writing at all.

 

Guzman's IMDb says he's been on the Grey's production staff since 2007--story editor for 36 episodes since 2012.  Wrote 14 episodes himself.

 

I guess we can just keep my complaints about the off-key dialogue here among friends.

: )

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I have read post where some people are saying in effect the Jo’s and Stephanie’s behavior was not in keeping with their established characters.

 

I have to disagree.

 

Remember in S10 ep,14, when they instituted the non-fraternization  policy Jo and keeps accusing Stephanie of logging and anonymous complaint that brought it about, and Stephanie refuses to deny the accusation, even though it was Leah.  It seemed to establish that Stephanie refuses to defend herself against false accusations and Jo is quick to see the worse in people, another example of Jo seeing the worse in people is when she was given the chance to take down lesions during an early surgery with Alex during the episode on the day of Bailey’s wedding, and she failed at the task, she went to Arizona and complained that Alex had set her up for failure, so that if something went wrong he would have something to blame.  

 

Stephanie Both Jo and Stephanie are highly competitive and Jo has been feeling that Stephanie has been pulling ahead of her this season, and has seen Stephanie lie to get an advantage. Stephanie says in earlier in this episode Jo was so lucky to be able to go to the party and make friends with the heads of the departments and she would kill to get an invite.  Thus when Amelia tells Jo that both she and Stephanie are invited to the party, she believes that Stephanie has just lied her way into taking away the one chance she had begun to see she had to pull ahead, so just like she reported Alex to Arazona, she reported what she thought was Stephanie's lie to Amelia.  I think both of their behavior this episode is typical of their established personalities. 

 

And honestly, if I thought that the writers were going somewhere with this, it would sit better with me (maybe and hopefully they are).  It makes sense that she would think the worst of someone right off the bat, but it still comes off like the usual "throw someone under the bus to make another character look good" trope that Grey's trots out time and again.   Part of the problem is that Jo's character has been here for 3 seasons and has been written all over the place with her backstory thrown in once or twice a season when its convenient but then forgotten the rest of the time.  I think that the writing and characterization has been a little better this season for the most part (in the little that we have seen and compared to the horrendous writing of the past couple of seasons), so I am cautiously optimistic.  I like Jo and I don't need her to be a "nice" character and I don't care if she comes off as a bitch with a chip on her shoulder as long as they give some motivation and write her consistently from here on out.

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The more I think about it, the less I see a reasonable point of having Penny back.

 

We have witnessed Meredith has grieved Derek´s death ala Greys style,ok, she is moving on, happy with kids, family,friends,work.

 

Why open this issue again with Penny´s arrival??? What if she does indeed start working in the hospital?

Edited by Season5OwenHuntfan

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Really interesting analysis, Kushka. I can see now how this is more in keeping with Jo's character than I thought initially.

But it is one of the frustrating things about this show: characters are always believing the worst possible thing about a friend or romantic partner based on jumping to conclusions. Like when Izzie got fired during the cancer storyline, she just assumed Alex threw her under the bus, and left him without even talking to him.

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Having read the above posts I agree that it is actually in character for Jo to react the way she did and I'm all for it had it been done to service her character growth rather then Stephanie's but this was just typical throwing her under the bus just so Steph could look all hurt and Amelia could hold her or whatever.

There's so much potential for Jo but the writers just have no interest in using it. She's treated like crap by her boyfriends friends, dismissed by her attendings and all around seems to have a really hard time work wise whereas Stephanie seems to flourish and has everyone's respect. Couldn't they have addressed her jealousy or something or acknowledged it makes her feel bad watching Stephanie do so well. No of course not because it had to be all about Stephanie with a side of Amelia.

On another note something that was bugging me... Since when is Maggie shy about discussing her sex life, lack of it or body parts in front of Alex. Waiting for her to say the word vagina is like a drinking game on the show at this point.. I didn't buy it at all. I felt like it was done for laughs but didn't suit what we've seen of the character so far at all.

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Having read the above posts I agree that it is actually in character for Jo to react the way she did and I'm all for it had it been done to service her character growth rather then Stephanie's but this was just typical throwing her under the bus just so Steph could look all hurt and Amelia could hold her or whatever.

There's so much potential for Jo but the writers just have no interest in using it. She's treated like crap by her boyfriends friends, dismissed by her attendings and all around seems to have a really hard time work wise whereas Stephanie seems to flourish and has everyone's respect. Couldn't they have addressed her jealousy or something or acknowledged it makes her feel bad watching Stephanie do so well. No of course not because it had to be all about Stephanie with a side of Amelia.

On another note something that was bugging me... Since when is Maggie shy about discussing her sex life, lack of it or body parts in front of Alex. Waiting for her to say the word vagina is like a drinking game on the show at this point.. I didn't buy it at all. I felt like it was done for laughs but didn't suit what we've seen of the character so far at all.

Very true indeed.

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Which is awkward enough, but first and foremost she's the one who worked on him and failed to do what she (and Meredith) knew was necessary to save him. What a fun dinner party this will be! Mary Richards will be proud. Although, I get that Meredith would never forget that other doctor's (Penny's, I guess) face, even without the very anvilicious speech she made earlier, but I find it hard to believe that Penny would instantly recognize Meredith. It's been over a year, and as much as she was told to keep Derek in mind as her "teaching moment" or whatever, come on. They see dead people every day.

 

As has been said before, I don't find it hard to believe she would forget Mer's face. Yes there are the arguments about them being famous and whatnot but all that aside, that was a huge case for her and major point in life that she will never forget. It's not so far-fetched to think she would always remember Meredith. It's even possible she went as far as to look them up and learn more about them after having to go through that with them.

 

I knew Callie's girlfriend was going to be someone we knew, but I didn't expect it to be the doctor that worked on Derek. I thought in the episode where he died that woman would come back, so this could be interesting.

I can't believe that Jo a) thought Stephanie was lying with that emotional confession, and b) told Amelia she was lying. Aren't they BFFs?

 

I too predicted that she would come back and after Meredith's speech to the interns, I suspected she would be Callie's new GF. I've been watching Grey's for too many years now not to be able to predict that episode set-up. Still well done though, IMO.

Yes they are BFF's but they are also work colleagues who are competing and I think Jo has been feeling lately that Stephanie has been taking that competition too far. It was a low blow to tell Amelia that she was lying though. 

 

Which is actually why I didn't like the ending. I don't buy her shock. If Callie is her girlfriend and not just a date, then she would know where she works and probably would've known whose house they were going to! I hate contrivance. Heck she probably would've already asked Callie if she knew Derek when she found out that Callie is on the board of the damn hospital where he worked and (arrrrr my brain). Sigh.

 

I didn't think of this initially but that's a very good point. Callie has been gushing about this girl for a few eps now so we get the impression that things are going well and there is some real connection and not just sex... wouldn't a life changing case like Derek's come up at some point in conversation? Especially after learning where Callie is going? And even if, let's say it's still in the early stages of the relationship and that conversation hasn't come up yet, wouldn't it once she finds out that they're going to Meredith Grey's house for a dinner party? Or did Callie not specify where they were going? "Oh let's go my friends' house for a dinner party and meet my ex-wife" and she asks no questions? More than a few holes there....

 

It's weird that Mere looks happier now than she did in the last years of the show, when she was imo snippy and unpleasant with people around her.

 

It's disgusting that she's used to prop Stephanie, the most useless character on this show for me. And I say prop because the audience was only told in Stephanie's POV, for example by showing her severe physical discomfort before her confrontation with Amelia, disqualifying Jo on an emotional level from the start. Ambiguity about the lie would have been less obviously one-sided, writing-wise.

The perspective of a doctor who was a patient as a child could have been interesting. It would have been more believable if anything had led me to believe, during the three seasons Stephanie's been around, that it was a planned background for her character and not some all new shiny sob story in order to garner sympathy and relevance. I didn't feel that she was particularly attached to patients or identified to them, before this episode.

I was meh on Stephanie, now I hate her.

 

Gonna disagree here. Whilst I don't think it was a part of her backstory from before, I think the introduction was handled well. Stephanie wants to appear fearless and strong and she thinks talking about something like that would make her appear the victim, which she doesn't want. So I thought it was believable that THIS particularly case brought up those old feelings more than any other that she's ever had to deal with.

However, I don't see Jo as the villain there. I'm not sure if that's what they wanted, but they have been building up to this disagreement of theirs for a few episodes now. Jo has a bit of resent towards Steph for all the little stunts she'd been pulling and her pulling ahead of the rest of them and this was just the last straw that broke the camels back. I may not agree with her telling Amelia that Steph was lying, but it's understandable. 

I've never been too keen on either of their characters but now Steph just pulled ahead of Jo for me, not just because of the sob-story but also because the actress is getting much better in my eyes. Which brings me to my agreement with your first point - Mer does look a whole lot happier than she has in a long time. And i think Ellen is really doing well with the character. I'm hoping they don't bring a love interest for her. Her speech hit the nail on the head - she's had that great love and now it's gone but shes in a good place. She has her friends and kids and work and she's ok with that.

Edited by timimouse
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What was wrong  with Stephanie?

 

And I wish she had slapped the taste out of Wilson's mouth. 

 

So Callie's girlfriend is the doctor who told Meredith Derek was dead.                              

callie's girlfriend is the doctor who failed to do what would probably have saved him.

Horrid rendition of "Believe".

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Part of the problem is that Jo's character has been here for 3 seasons and has been written all over the place with her backstory thrown in once or twice a season when its convenient but then forgotten the rest of the time.  I think that the writing and characterization has been a little better this season for the most part (in the little that we have seen and compared to the horrendous writing of the past couple of seasons), so I am cautiously optimistic.  I like Jo and I don't need her to be a "nice" character and I don't care if she comes off as a bitch with a chip on her shoulder as long as they give some motivation and write her consistently from here on out.

I came to the realization while watching this ep that when characters are written consistently, I either like or dislike the character, without really thinking too much about the fact that this person doesn't actually exist. When I start thinking of a character more in terms of the way they're written, it's usually an indication that they're not being written all that well. And Jo is a big one for me. I feel like every time I think about Jo, I'm thinking about how she's written, and it really is all over the place. Yes, her assuming that Steph was lying because it's something she herself might do and because she has been known (as so many fictional characters tend to) to leap to the worst possible conclusion about someone who really had earned a certain benefit of the doubt in her life, but she's also been known to communicate really well (particularly with Alex). Whether she communicates well or not seems to b entirely plot-dependent, and I just find that so irritating. I want to like Jo, but I just find her so inconsistently written that I can't invest in her character without just focusing on the way she's written. Urg.

 

Agreed that all these adults (especially Maggie) need to stop acting like they're teenagers who have just discovered sex. And seriously, I'm pretty sex positive and have no issues with these ladies discussing whatever the vagina euphemism for the week is among friends — even male ones. But every single week? It's just not necessary. I wouldn't go so far as to call it disgusting, but it's not necessarily appropriate in all contexts, and it's certainly over the top enough to induce eye rolling. Maybe we could have just one week where we don't go there quite so explicitly?

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All the sex talk was rather annoying, but I do like Maggie with Hot Intern.

 

I have never liked Jo ever, so I am totally on Team Stephanie with this one.  Even if Jo didn't believe her, to baldly  characterize Stephanie as a 'liar'  -- which is much stronger & more definitive  than someone who just manipulates the system in her favor --  to Steph's supervisor is just an outright shitty thing to do.

 

But beyond all that I like how Webber just cut to the heart of the matter and it is more condemnatory of Amelia than it is of Jo.  He's completely right, how easily she believed Jo over Stephanie says more about Amelia than it does about Jo.

 

I have seen  the actress who plays Callie's new girlfriend on a lot of other shows, even just one this week but I can never remember what they are.

Edited by DearEvette
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All the sex talk was rather annoying, but I do like Maggie with Hot Intern.

I have never liked Jo ever, so I am totally on Team Stephanie with this one. Even if Jo didn't believe her, to baldly characterize Stephanie as a 'liar' -- which is much stronger & more definitive than someone who just manipulates the system in her favor -- to Steph's supervisor is just an outright shitty thing to do.

But beyond all that I like how Webber just cut to the heart of the matter and it is more condemnatory of Amelia than it is of Jo. He's completely right, how easily she believed Jo over Stephanie says more about Amelia than it does about Jo.

I totally agree. I thought it was more an indictment of Amelia than Jo. That's why they the scene with Richard instead of just having Stephenie deny Jo's statement to Amelia. It really makes me wonder WHY it was so easy for Amelia to believe Jo about something this big. As far as I know the writers didn't set-up a reason for her to belive Jo or gave us an explanation as to why.

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But beyond all that I like how Webber just cut to the heart of the matter and it is more condemnatory of Amelia than it is of Jo.  He's completely right, how easily she believed Jo over Stephanie says more about Amelia than it does about Jo.

What do you understand it to be saying about Amelia?  Because like he said, she has been very close to Stephanie, she's spent more time with Stephanie out of pretty much any resident and actually some of her attending peers for that matter. As a matter a fact, I would say she's spent more consecutive hours a day with Stephanie than Stephanie has spent with Jo.

 

I mean I know what came to my mind from that scene, but I could be projecting...Because it doesn't seem to be that clear to many what the writers were trying to say about Amelia. Though I suspect it was something important to have Webber address the situation with Amelia directly so...

 

I know I surely didn't think it was  a message of she doesn't spend enough time getting to know her residents, really? That can't be it, I mean why does Amelia need to learn this? She hasn't been shown to be overtly indifferent to her residents. She hasn't been shown to look right past others and not want to form any connections. So I didn't think this was something she needed to learn.

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I don't find it hard to believe she would forget Mer's face. Yes there are the arguments about them being famous and whatnot but all that aside, that was a huge case for her and major point in life that she will never forget. It's not so far-fetched to think she would always remember Meredith. It's even possible she went as far as to look them up and learn more about them after having to go through that with them.

 

I agree Penny will always remember that case and the choices she made and the lessons she learned, but not for Meredith. Derek is the lesson she learned. It's Derek who she failed. And I believe it's Derek whose face, if anyone's, will haunt her dreams and stalk her days for the rest of her life. While she will always remember Meredith's words, I doubt she would remember Meredith's face after a while. Because the moment, the lesson - it wasn't about Meredith. It was about Derek.

 

I could see Amelia believing Jo if she thinks Jo knows Stephanie better than Amelia knows Stephanie.

 

This is true. For all Amelia knew, Jo knew for a fact that Stephanie never went through any such thing, or that Stephanie confided to her that she had made the whole thing up. I don't see why Amelia would automatically assume that Jo was the one who was lying or was misinformed when she herself didn't know anything one way or the other about Stephanie's past to vouch for her story.

 

I don't blame Jo for assuming Stephanie made that story up. Forget about her history of fibbing her way around the department to get ahead: the story was just way too convenient and over the top. I was expecting Amelia to call her out on it while she was telling it. And, of course, Stephanie didn't deny it when Jo confronted her about it in the stairwell. I don't think Jo needed to rat her out to Amelia, though. I mean, what purpose did that serve other than to soothe her own jealousy? It's not like Stephanie gave that explanation in order to get something, like she was previously doing. She wanted to get out of having to do something, which incidentally ended up benefiting Jo.

Edited by Chicken Wing
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I could see Amelia believing Jo if she thinks Jo knows Stephanie better than Amelia knows Stephanie.

I would agree with this if the writers hadn't made Richard remind Amelia of the amount of time she spent with Stephanie, and little amount of time she spent with Jo. Therefore, she should know Stephanie better and trust Stephenie's word over Jo, who she hardly know, no matter how close she assume Jo and Stephanie are.

The fact that Jo would "rat" Stephanie out, should have been Amelia's first clue that she should take Jo's statement with a grain of salt because it implies that Stephanie and Jo are not so close that Stephanie would let Jo into her secret if she was lying. Jo's action should have made Amelia investigate, not out right accuse Stephenie and ready to disrespect her in front of her superior. This is why I said the story painted Amelia, not so much Jo, into a bad light.

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What do you understand it to be saying about Amelia? Because like he said, she has been very close to Stephanie, she's spent more time with Stephanie out of pretty much any resident and actually some of her attending peers for that matter. As a matter a fact, I would say she's spent more consecutive hours a day with Stephanie than Stephanie has spent with Jo.

I mean I know what came to my mind from that scene, but I could be projecting...Because it doesn't seem to be that clear to many what the writers were trying to say about Amelia. Though I suspect it was something important to have Webber address the situation with Amelia directly so...

I know I surely didn't think it was a message of she doesn't spend enough time getting to know her residents, really? That can't be it, I mean why does Amelia need to learn this? She hasn't been shown to be overtly indifferent to her residents. She hasn't been shown to look right past others and not want to form any connections. So I didn't think this was something she needed to learn.

I think the same thing that came to your mind came to mine too but I didn't bring it up because the writers didn't give us enough clue/evidence to make that be the reason. So I'm still left wondering why Amelia believed Jo over Stephenie, without even a little amount of investigation or research to find out if Jo is telling the truth and not just being a jealous/competitive colleagues, especially because of how emotional Stephanie was when telling her about her experience.

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Maybe it's supposed to be telling us that Amelia assumes that everyone she lets get close to her eventually lets her down?

In any case, it was apparently too vague if it left us all guessing!

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I thought it was a very enjoyable episode. Gonna write a review once I rewatch it tomorrow.

But omg the ending was exactly what I thought it would be. I can't wait for next week!

 

I absolutely agree (except I'm not going to write a review)! I've been unable to watch the last two episodes and just caught up tonight.  And, maybe it's the cocktail or two in me, but I really, really liked these last two episodes. It's Grey's again....I mean it will never be GREY'S again, but this far in, and after last year, they are doing damn good this season.

 

And I learned about the guest at the end from spoilers or spec or somewhere, prior to swearing off spoilers, primarily because there don't seem to be many and I like it so much better when I don't know, but ooooffff, those last 30 seconds or so, even knowing what I knew, I had no way of knowing how powerful that initial moment would be.  Wow.

 

Just well played all around show....you go!

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 What a fun dinner party this will be! Mary Richards will be proud.

 

Ohhh, Mr. Grant.....

 

I don't know, bringing up that you gave poor medical treatment to your girlfriend's dead friend [who whoops is your girlfriend's friend's dead husband] is kind of an awkward thing to bring up.

 

Hee!  I'll have to double-check as to whether there is a chapter in dating handbooks for how to handle such a situation:)

 

I like that April can be such a good friend to Arizona. It's too bad that she is so annoying about Jackson. I loved when April started crying about Jackson and Arizona told her that this was about her, not April. HA!

 

 I loved that too!  "This isn't about you.....it's about me".

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I have seen  the actress who plays Callie's new girlfriend on a lot of other shows, even just one this week but I can never remember what they are.

Samantha Sloyan has guest starred on a bunch of shows including Criminal Minds, Rizzoli and Isles, Hawaii Five-O, Scandal, Parks & Rec, Castle, NCIS, Private Practice, and The Fosters.

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Penny might know who Meredith is after Derek's death, but she likely doesn't have Meredith's face burned in her brain the same way Penny's was burned on Meredith's.  She'd remember her name, her interaction at the hospital, but seeing her in an entirely different setting would not immediately bring to mind who she was.  At least that's now my brain works.

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This is true. For all Amelia knew, Jo knew for a fact that Stephanie never went through any such thing, or that Stephanie confided to her that she had made the whole thing up. I don't see why Amelia would automatically assume that Jo was the one who was lying or was misinformed when she herself didn't know anything one way or the other about Stephanie's past to vouch for her story.

 

I don't blame Jo for assuming Stephanie made that story up. Forget about her history of fibbing her way around the department to get ahead: the story was just way too convenient and over the top. I was expecting Amelia to call her out on it while she was telling it. And, of course, Stephanie didn't deny it when Jo confronted her about it in the stairwell. I don't think Jo needed to rat her out to Amelia, though. I mean, what purpose did that serve other than to soothe her own jealousy? It's not like Stephanie gave that explanation in order to get something, like she was previously doing. She wanted to get out of having to do something, which incidentally ended up benefiting Jo.

 

 

So I bolded parts because they make up the essential reasons why it literally made no sense for Jo to immediately jump to a conclusion that Steph was lying about this based on her actions in the past.  Steph's working the system was getting her a reputation as getting shit done.  It was making her look good to the higher ups.  If we are to believe Steph is ambitious and striving hard, how does getting out of working on a really important trial of Amelia's benefit her in any way or add to that reputation?  If anything her willingness to relinquish a prime spot like that to Jo should have been a clear signal that there was something very major at the root of her objection.

 

Samantha Sloyan has guest starred on a bunch of shows including Criminal Minds, Rizzoli and Isles, Hawaii Five-O, Scandal, Parks & Rec, Castle, NCIS, Private Practice, and The Fosters.

 

Thank you!  She was on Criminal Minds last week but I remember her best as poor White House press Secretary Janine who took the fall for being Fitz' mistress the first time people thought it was Liv.

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What do you understand it to be saying about Amelia?  Because like he said, she has been very close to Stephanie, she's spent more time with Stephanie out of pretty much any resident and actually some of her attending peers for that matter. As a matter a fact, I would say she's spent more consecutive hours a day with Stephanie than Stephanie has spent with Jo.

 

I mean I know what came to my mind from that scene, but I could be projecting...Because it doesn't seem to be that clear to many what the writers were trying to say about Amelia. Though I suspect it was something important to have Webber address the situation with Amelia directly so...

 

I know I surely didn't think it was  a message of she doesn't spend enough time getting to know her residents, really? That can't be it, I mean why does Amelia need to learn this? She hasn't been shown to be overtly indifferent to her residents. She hasn't been shown to look right past others and not want to form any connections. So I didn't think this was something she needed to learn.

 

I initially took it to mean that Webber was asking Amelia to think about whether or not she subconsciously believed Jo because she is white.  I don't know what else he could have meant, and no reasoning was really given.  They have hit us over the head with the fact that Stephanie is a wonder resident and Jo is vastly inferior, and they haven't given either character enough development to think that it would be completely a personality issue, so that left the other difference between them. 

 

But, I don't think that we have seen any evidence that Amelia would think that way, and I have a hard time believing that Shonda or the writers would put that kind of thing on Amelia, who seems to be a favorite.  They have given these characters a LOT of faults but prejudice hasn't really been one of them thus far.  So while that was my initial thought, it just doesn't seem like something Grey's would do. 

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So I bolded parts because they make up the essential reasons why it literally made no sense for Jo to immediately jump to a conclusion that Steph was lying about this based on her actions in the past.  Steph's working the system was getting her a reputation as getting shit done.  It was making her look good to the higher ups.  If we are to believe Steph is ambitious and striving hard, how does getting out of working on a really important trial of Amelia's benefit her in any way or add to that reputation?  If anything her willingness to relinquish a prime spot like that to Jo should have been a clear signal that there was something very major at the root of her objection.

Agreed. If we've learned one thing about every single one of these people, that we can count on to be true always, no matter how inconsistently other elements of them might be presented, it's that if they're backing down from a major case, it's because something is very wrong. Not one of them turns down a surgery or the chance to be part of breakthrough history or whatever just because they're not feeling it that day.

 

I initially took it to mean that Webber was asking Amelia to think about whether or not she subconsciously believed Jo because she is white.  I don't know what else he could have meant, and no reasoning was really given.  They have hit us over the head with the fact that Stephanie is a wonder resident and Jo is vastly inferior, and they haven't given either character enough development to think that it would be completely a personality issue, so that left the other difference between them. 

 

But, I don't think that we have seen any evidence that Amelia would think that way, and I have a hard time believing that Shonda or the writers would put that kind of thing on Amelia, who seems to be a favorite.  They have given these characters a LOT of faults but prejudice hasn't really been one of them thus far.  So while that was my initial thought, it just doesn't seem like something Grey's would do. 

Certainly not without making it abundantly clear and explicit and with a lot more focus on it as the lesson of the week or whathaveyou. If that's what we were supposed to get out of that scene, I'm pretty sure we've have been beaten over the head to make sure there was no question of what we were supposed to get.

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I'm not sure but I thought maybe Webber was trying to say to Amelia that she assumed Stephanie lied because addicts are liars, so Amelia was judging Stephanie by her own standards. Like I say I'm not sure.

The whole storyline was badly written, no-ones actions really made sense.

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The whole storyline was badly written, no-ones actions really made sense.

 

 

There didn't seem any point in the storyline, either.  So what if Jo thought Stephanie was lying?  So what if Stephanie didn't deny lying to Jo?  So what if Amelia believed Jo?  I don't see why any of that matters in the least.  There are no stakes here.

 

It's not like Meredith lying about Derek's Alzheimers trial when she changed Adele's status so she would get the drug.  That kind of lie has real consequences and a point and high stakes personally as well as professionally.

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I'm thinking it was just calling attention to how little Stephanie is appreciated and recognized by the higher-up docs, not just in comparison to Jo but just in general. Amelia had worked closely with Stephanie on several important cases, she trusts her, she relies on her - they've got a whole "thing" down. But she's not close to her as she should, doesn't implicitly trust this fellow doc with whom she supposedly has a great bond, as evidenced by the fact that she was so ready to accept the word of another doc that she isn't close to at all over Stephanie's. I think the big lesson was that although Amelia thinks highly of Stephanie, she doesn't treat her that way. And she made baby steps to remedy that in the end by finally extending an invitation to the stupid dinner party. At least I think that was the point of the storyline, and if so, what a pointlessly long way around for a bunch of boring nonsense.

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I just feel as though Jo saying that Stephanie was totally lying about such a significant story warrants at least a "that's a serious accusation; what makes you say that she is lying?" Those are the kind of exchanges that take place in normal workplaces (I know, I know, GSM isn't anything close to a normal workplace); if you are going to damage someone's professional reputation, you need to be prepared to justify what you are saying.

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I think that Jo was prepared to justify it - she confronted Stephanie directly about lying and it's not like Stephanie denied it.  I don't think she would have said anything to Amelia had Stephanie told her that her story was true.

 

I guess Amelia could have tried talking to Stephanie on her own, but she wouldn't have known if Steph was lying or not.  I think that's why she took it to the Chief.  (He isn't the Chief anymore, so I'm not sure why she didn't take it to Bailey...)

Edited by izabella

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I lost track of how many times I rolled my eyes during this episode. Just too much contrivance. Stevie Wonder could've seen a million miles away that Abe was going to die - showing Arizona the engagement ring was a massive anvil. And any time one character on a show (e.g., Maggie) says with vehemence, "I am NEVER GOING TO HAVE SEX AGAIN WITH SO-AND-SO!!!" you immediately know that they will indeed be ripping each other's clothes off momentarily. Such lazy, unoriginal writing - we've seen this sort of lameness for 50+ years on any countless number of soap operas. Same thing when Meredith said, several times, "I'm done with sex! I had my One Great Love, but now I have my kids and career and that's enough." Yeah...right. While I do agree that she doesn't need to have a new love interest right away, neither does she have to proclaim with such gusto that she's NEVER going to have love/sex again. Come on! Fake, fake, Fakey McFakerson! I'd rather she'd have said, "I had my One Great Love. I miss Derek with all my heart and soul and always will. For now, I'm going to raise my kids, bust my ass at work, but I hope that someday, I'll be ready to love again. We'll see, who knows...but not right now." That to me would have been more realistic. Don't blast these ultimatums around because we all know that it's not going to last!

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I lost track of how many times I rolled my eyes during this episode. Just too much contrivance. Stevie Wonder could've seen a million miles away that Abe was going to die - showing Arizona the engagement ring was a massive anvil. And any time one character on a show (e.g., Maggie) says with vehemence, "I am NEVER GOING TO HAVE SEX AGAIN WITH SO-AND-SO!!!" you immediately know that they will indeed be ripping each other's clothes off momentarily. Such lazy, unoriginal writing - we've seen this sort of lameness for 50+ years on any countless number of soap operas. Same thing when Meredith said, several times, "I'm done with sex! I had my One Great Love, but now I have my kids and career and that's enough." Yeah...right. While I do agree that she doesn't need to have a new love interest right away, neither does she have to proclaim with such gusto that she's NEVER going to have love/sex again. Come on! Fake, fake, Fakey McFakerson! I'd rather she'd have said, "I had my One Great Love. I miss Derek with all my heart and soul and always will. For now, I'm going to raise my kids, bust my ass at work, but I hope that someday, I'll be ready to love again. We'll see, who knows...but not right now." That to me would have been more realistic. Don't blast these ultimatums around because we all know that it's not going to last!

I feel the same.

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I initially took it to mean that Webber was asking Amelia to think about whether or not she subconsciously believed Jo because she is white.  I don't know what else he could have meant, and no reasoning was really given.

Yeah, I too thought it was about inherent bias, that we may not even be aware of.  But once again, the show's popularity has never added up with the horrible writing. This type of writing is what I've come to expect, I don't expect more.

I mean fine, play this angle, but do a better job of building up to it. This shit was just thrown in her for what?  This was the only way they could share Stephanie's backstory? Boy they suck, once again, it shows that the writing staff has little to no investment in these characters.

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(He isn't the Chief anymore, so I'm not sure why she didn't take it to Bailey...)

 

Webber is in charge of overseeing the residents, so that's why Amelia went to him (not in his capacity as faux-Chief).

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I lost track of how many times I rolled my eyes during this episode. Just too much contrivance. Stevie Wonder could've seen a million miles away that Abe was going to die - showing Arizona the engagement ring was a massive anvil. And any time one character on a show (e.g., Maggie) says with vehemence, "I am NEVER GOING TO HAVE SEX AGAIN WITH SO-AND-SO!!!" you immediately know that they will indeed be ripping each other's clothes off momentarily. Such lazy, unoriginal writing - we've seen this sort of lameness for 50+ years on any countless number of soap operas. Same thing when Meredith said, several times, "I'm done with sex! I had my One Great Love, but now I have my kids and career and that's enough." Yeah...right. While I do agree that she doesn't need to have a new love interest right away, neither does she have to proclaim with such gusto that she's NEVER going to have love/sex again. Come on! Fake, fake, Fakey McFakerson! I'd rather she'd have said, "I had my One Great Love. I miss Derek with all my heart and soul and always will. For now, I'm going to raise my kids, bust my ass at work, but I hope that someday, I'll be ready to love again. We'll see, who knows...but not right now." That to me would have been more realistic. Don't blast these ultimatums around because we all know that it's not going to last!

 

Seriously. First, from a story perspective, we know this is just the prelude to her doing the exact opposite at some point. May not be this season - and I'd prefer it wasn't this season - but at some point before the series (finally) ends. But more importantly, from a realism perspective, that's just not realistic! It's not like Meredith is a merry old widow of 85. She's, what, 37, 38? She has too much life yet to know that she's thrown in the towel on ever having a romantic partner again. I don't expect her to be in that headspace right now. As of right now the idea must seem like a ridiculous foreign concept. Dating again? Having someone else's choo-choo pull into her Ladytown? (Sorry, had to do it.) That is so not on her radar and right now she can barely fathom it. But somewhere, deep down, she must know intellectually that people can and do find a new someone to be happy with, and she too can find a new someone to be happy with, if she wants to, even if she has zero interest right now. No, she may not ever find another Great Love like she had with Derek, that may be a once in a lifetime thing, but she can still find a New Love. Or a New Like. Or a Nice Man Who's Fun To Be With And Is Good With Her Kids. It can be anything. The world is still wide open to her and I feel like Meredith is too smart to not realize that, so her speech felt melodramatic and disingenuous and, as much as she insisted that it was a happy thing, quite depressing. I would rather her epiphany about her life as a widow had her realizing that she is happy and fulfilled with her kids and her friends and her work and her memories of her Great Love to keep her warm at night, and though there may or may not come a time someday where she is ready for a new love she knows she doesn't actually need it. She has everything she needs. She is whole.

Edited by Chicken Wing
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I liked this episode. My strongest complaint, actually, was in letting the widow dictate how to deliver bad news. I realize they needed it to set up the Meredith/Penny story, but still: any other attending would be like "Maybe you're a little too close to the situation -- let's just do this by the book." Plus...what exactly were they supposed to do differently? How does "Yours is the face they'll remember for the rest of their lives?" in any way constructive advice to interns about how to deliver bad news? The answer is it isn't, and it was just setting up the later story -- but I think that's what happens when the show tries to do too much at once. Shonda used to do double meaning storylines flawlessly, to me, but these writers need a little work to match her level.

 

I loved the Stephanie storyline, though -- and the reason can be encapsulated in that one moment when Jo was accusing her of making the story up and I went "Wait...did she actually make it up?" I believe Stephanie is one of the only new characters who's been presented as appropriately flawed and dynamic enough to make me wonder if she really was telling the truth. Most new characters are stock "good" or "bad" -- Stephanie has layers. She doesn't seem like a "new Izzie" or "new Cristina" or "new Meredith" -- she's one of a kind, to me. I was really moved when she treated her patient and said the patient could hit her, if she wanted to -- and then Amelia hugged her. I like that Amelia and Stephanie interact as colleagues -- not love interests or best friends. It's a real mentor/protege relationship, similar to Alex/Arizona. The show needs more of those, I think.

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I liked this episode. My strongest complaint, actually, was in letting the widow dictate how to deliver bad news. I realize they needed it to set up the Meredith/Penny story, but still: any other attending would be like "Maybe you're a little too close to the situation -- let's just do this by the book." Plus...what exactly were they supposed to do differently? How does "Yours is the face they'll remember for the rest of their lives?" in any way constructive advice to interns about how to deliver bad news? The answer is it isn't, and it was just setting up the later story -- but I think that's what happens when the show tries to do too much at once. Shonda used to do double meaning storylines flawlessly, to me, but these writers need a little work to match her level.

While never giving death or dying news, I do work in a health profession where we often give people bad news, and you absolutely need to view each time as an individual event - it's never the same and if you go in without the ability to adjust the game plan on the fly, you have failed that family. As a student, I often got this vague advice and I was expected to interpret it. I only found this scene marginally out of whack. Edited by tomatoflyer

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