S11.E02: Form And Void

[DittyDotDot]

Yeah, as far as I can remember, demons are corrupted souls. Which begs the question of, was Dean twisting into a demon himself when he was in Hell?

 

Here's a Cass-like question: If a human soul is twisted and turned to smoke, is it still a soul?

 

I guess what I was getting at is, the point of Amara eating souls is probably a way for her to power up. I'm thinking demon souls don't have the same "white light" power that makes them valuable as a power source. It seems like it's uncorrupted human souls that hold power.

Edited October 20, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

 

Here's a Cass-like question: If a human soul is twisted and turned to smoke, is it still a soul?

 

I think it is. it's twisted and corrupted but  I think that the smoke is just a way for us to see how it moves at will and possesses a meatsuit, rather than it being the white ilght we saw in Mother's LIttle Helper. 

 

I guess what I was getting at is, the point of Amara eating souls is probably a way for her to power up. I'm thinking demon souls don't have the same "white light" power that makes them valuable as a power source. It seems like it's uncorrupted human souls that hold power.

 

 

It's an interesting question but I wonder if so, then what determines a corrupted soul?

 

How would we know that Jenna was  uncorrupted? 

[mizkat]

It's an interesting question but I wonder if so, then what determines a corrupted soul?

 

I guess any demon soul? Which then leads us to ask if Sam and Dean's souls are corrupted--Sam's been in cage and Dean was a demon. Or is the slate wiped clean for them? Or will the slate be wiped clean for them eventually? 

[Omegamom]

Jenna smelled like food, and Crowley didn't? Dean doesn't count, since he's bound.

[catrox14]

I was thinking more about the other non demon souls. Like humans are not perfect so is there like a continuum of soulness that Amara would use to decide which soul is more valuable?

 

Or would it be more like Amara only uses as much of the 'light' as she needs? I guess to me a soul is a soul is a soul regardless of it's level of corruption and she would want those too.

Edited October 20, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

How would we know that Jenna was uncorrupted? 

 

As far as we know, she wasn't a demon.

 

I don't mean uncorrupted in the sense if they were good or bad people, but there's a point where the soul is so twisted it becomes a demon. Even hell-bound souls are still human souls and have value--that's what powers Hell. It seems like once they become demons, their soul doesn't have value anymore. Or that's been my sense of the show so far.

[AwesomO4000]

Maybe it depends on who or what is eating the soul? Famine didn't seem to mind chowing down on demon souls if they were what was available. He especially liked that soul from the demon who lost the soul in the suitcase. After inhaling the black smoke, he proclaimed it to be "de-li-cious!"
 

I'm not watching DomesticatedDean again nd it will be ridiculous, IMO, if they even try to go that well again. Dean should just tell Sam that he HAS a life that he's happy with, at some point, and that hunting is the largest part of it. It is, after all, what we've been shown over all the seasons of this show. SAM is the one who has been shown to us as flip flopping on this particular issue over the course of the series-so I'd like Dean to point that out to him, again,

I disagree with this. Dean has been shown to flip flop just as much on hunting throughout the series as Sam. Since the beginning, Dean has sometimes said he's tired and doesn't want to do it anymore ("Faith" , "Croatoan") or was the one shown to be having more domestic dreams ("Dream a Little Dream of Me"), and was the one who actually made it work for a while in early season 6, even becoming part of the neighborhood. Except for Carver's attempt at a reset in season 8 (which in my opinion made little sense) and one oddly worded statement that made little sense in season 4, Sam has consistently wanted to hunt since at least mid season 2. Soulless Sam hunted. Mystery Spot Sam lived for hunting. Season 7 Sam found many of the cases while Dean was pursuing Dick Roman. It was even Sam with no memory of his former life as Sam Wesson in "It's a Terrible Life" who was the one trying to talk Dean (Smith) into hunting. He's consistently the one to gravitate back to it again and again (with the exception in season 8) whereas Dean has been shown to be able to adapt and be happy in other situations - for example "Hollywood Babylon" and season 6 where Dean was reluctant to get back into hunting at the beginning of the season. Soulless Sam practically had to drag him back into it.

And especially since Carver has finally also had Sam decide (again) that hunting is what he wants to do, I see little need to see some kind of brow-beating from Dean about how Dean loves to hunt and somehow Sam is holding him back. Sam didn't force Dean to enjoy cooking or nesting in the bunker, and just because Sam didn't necessarily want Dean to be involved in the dangers of the trials doesn't mean Sam kept Dean from hunting in general. Why does Sam need some kind of lecture from Dean reminding Sam that Dean wants to hunt? In response, if Sam was at all himself, he should just look at Dean and say "I know, Dude. That's what I want too. What are you telling me all this for? Are you okay?"

[DittyDotDot]

Maybe it depends on who or what is eating the soul? Famine didn't seem to mind chowing down on demon souls if they were what was available. He especially liked that soul from the demon who lost the soul in the suitcase. After inhaling the black smoke, he proclaimed it to be "de-li-cious!"

 

But was he devouring them for their power or because he was a glutton?

[Myrelle]

I disagree with this. Dean has been shown to flip flop just as much on hunting throughout the series as Sam. Since the beginning, Dean has sometimes said he's tired and doesn't want to do it anymore ("Faith" , "Croatoan") or was the one shown to be having more domestic dreams ("Dream a Little Dream of Me"), and was the one who actually made it work for a while in early season 6, even becoming part of the neighborhood.

 

Anyone who saw Dean as happy in his normal life in S6 saw something different from what I saw. IMO, he was there to fulfill a promise to Sam. Did he enjoy the family element? Absolutely because THAT'S what's always been important to Dean-family-not normal. For him to have wondered what it would have been like to have a family of his own is only human, but I think there was a ton of underlying unhappiness in his life in suburbia with the surrogate wife and kid and I further think that they showed this to us very well and very clearly in that scene when he took the tarp off The Impala. He initially stayed with LIsa and Ben because he thought he could protect them better that way being that he'd brought danger into their lives just by showing up on their doorstep. He dreamed about Lisa and Ben because of the family angle again. He became a hunter again the second that Sam showed up alive-even Lisa knew it. And after that he was back to being the consummate hunter with never a mention of wanting or even dreaming about having a family of his own, much less anything normal. On the contrary, he found Purgatory to be "pure" afterwards and even told HeadBenny that it was as good a place for him to end up as any in The Werther Project.

Contrast this with Sam in S8 and there's a world of difference. Sam said it himself. He had what he wanted with Amelia-a normal life-and Dean showing up put a crimp in it, even though he'd already left Amelia. It was the message that the writers sent and that JP's portrayal of Sam sent also. As for DomesticDean in the bunker, Dean saw the bunker, the center of their hunting lives at the time, as  his "home", thus the nesting. Sam saw it only as a workplace.

They can leave it alone when Sam stops voicing the thought that he knows what Dean "deserves" as this is just another form of projecting his own feelings, wishes, and desires onto Dean, IMO. I get that we will never agree on this, and that's fine, but from what I've seen and IMO, Dean has only ever wondered about a normal life, tried to live one for Sam, and found that it was as he originally thought it would be in the episode Bugs-something that just wasn't for him.

And I know that many fans of Sam don't like to admit that the first half of S8 happened and that Sam said and did the things that he did in that season, but it IS canon that Sam was still longing for a normal life as late as S8, while Dean had moved on from even wondering about it and embraced his hunting legacy even more since S6.

And I don't think that there is any real need to worry that Dean would actually remind Sam of this through anything in the actual text of this show(see my snowball's chance in hell comment). It's far more likely that we'll get words from Dean that will just prop Sam some more for... something. It's been the MO of these writers since S5. So have no fear.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Myrelle

[AwesomO4000]

And I know that many fans of Sam don't like to admit that the first half of S8 happened and that Sam said and did the things that he did in that season, but it IS canon that Sam was still longing for a normal life as late as S8, while Dean had moved on from even wondering about it and embraced his hunting legacy even more since S6.

 

He became a hunter again the second that Sam showed up alive-even Lisa knew it.

 

Taken to the "All Episodes Talk" thread.

Edited October 21, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

As far as we know, she wasn't a demon.

 

I don't mean uncorrupted in the sense if they were good or bad people, but there's a point where the soul is so twisted it becomes a demon. Even hell-bound souls are still human souls and have value--that's what powers Hell. It seems like once they become demons, their soul doesn't have value anymore. Or that's been my sense of the show so far.

The souls from Purgatory powered up Cas, so I think any soul gives power.

[Omegamom]

I always thought Dean was so unhappy because he was grieving for Sam. After all, knowing his beloved brother was bound in Hell for eternity--when he been there himself and knew exactly what that entails--must have been pretty horrifying.

[Partly]

Hey!  Only took a week but I finally got to watch the episode! 

I rather liked it, which is odd because I really dislike the whole "possessed baby/child" concept.

 

Random thoughts (some of which you all may have addressed, but I haven't read the forum yet):

 

I like BIlly  "Circle gets the square"  It's a great reference that both dates her and makes her interesting.  My question is if the Reapers are going rouge and she would happily throw him into "the empty", why did she tell him that he was "unclean in the Biblical sense?"  I mean, that wasn't just a throw-away line, that was a clue.

 

And "The Empty"  That's a new concept right?  There was heaven and hell and purgatory. When did the reapers had the ability to know/choose where the souls went?  Is this the first time this was mentioned or what that established before and I just missed it?  Her threat that "nothing comes back" from The Empty - sounds like a challenge for the Winchesters, don't you think?

 

Love how Sam says that they have to change they they have to do things different and then immediately goes back to praying to God that he will sacrifice himself is only Dean could have a life.  HAH!  Gotta love that Winchester love.  Both of them always willing to sacrifice for the other -- and no, I don't want them to change. 

 

Crowley is a paradox. I hate Crowley, however, I love when he's onscreen.  Mark Sheppard has done such a brilliant job bringing the character to life. The only thing that saves the whole thing is the awesomeness that is on the screen when Dean and Crowley are in scenes together.  I know, catch 22, which is why Crowley is still around.  However, I really hate that a villain is becoming a protagonist, because to me to goes against the whole feeling of the show.  I just hope that Dean will kill him eventually - although I'd be happy enough if Amara would just snap her fingers at some point and "puff" goes Crowley.  Would serve him right for thinking that he could control Darkness.  See -- on screen i love Crowley, but talking about him makes me want him dead.

 

I like how the Angels don't understand Castiel.  I'm glad that Cas didn't kill Hannah.  I also think it's interesting that when most Angels get the concept of free will, they almost immediately chose to be evil.  Not cool, Angels, not cool.

 

I also like how, as usual, Dean always wants to err on the side of caution when he's not positive that the people/creatures attacking himare evil.  I mean, when Jenna is attacking him, he's more than willing to keep her alive and try to figure out what's going on.  Now if Jenna would have been attacking innocents (for example, if Dean would have caught her attacking her Grandmother) then Dean would have been less hesitant to kill her (IMO).  Dean has always been willing to put is own life on the line in order to try and save others, so I'm glad to see that hasn't changed with the MoC and all.

 

Last thought (and maybe this was all discussed in past threads): what happens to souls when they are "eaten"?  Are they destroyed? Can a soul be destroyed? Are they just held in captivity, providing a endless power source?  This is a mythology that hasn't been touched on.  

Edited October 21, 2015 by Partly

[shang yiet]

I loved the Sam section. It was the meat of this episode. In a time of darkness and despair and when all seemed lost, Sam prayed and received an answer from a higher power. It was a lifeline of hope against the darkness. It was riveting seeing Sam so vulnerable and emotional. And it was touching that Sam mentioned Dean in his prayer.

 

I liked seeing Sam on his own, carrying the story and being proactive and actually saving people. He needed that win.

 

I wondered if Billie the reaper purposely gave Sam the clue or if Sam figured it all out by himself, I liked the callback to Sam feeling impure and tainted. Too bad the boring Castiel scenes went on for so long and cut into the Sam story.

Edited October 21, 2015 by shang yiet

[bethy]

I hope it's OK to post this here, but I just had to link to Tippi's recap and say I couldn't agree more with the Regular Fruit; Low Hanging Fruit; Fruit on the Ground; Child Molestation Jokes photo. Yuck. 

[sarthaz]

Finally got to this.  Afraid to watch the next episode for fear that the terrible theme-hammering music they used for this episode will be the new norm for the show.  It was so difficult to stay focused as that pounding garbage swelled through every scene.

 

Btw, did I hear Sam correctly during his prayer?  Something like, "I know we've messed up, but this time it's different.  This time it's my fault"  Something like that?  Someone get Sam a Netflix account so he can watch the first 10 seasons.  This time is not so different.

[Aeryn13]

 

Btw, did I hear Sam correctly during his prayer?  Something like, "I know we've messed up, but this time it's different.  This time it's my fault"

 

I don`t recall because not a scene I enjoy but it would be hilarious.

 

Actually, it`s scenes like this that always make me go "right" whenever they want to hammer home how he thinks so little of himself. I mean he says so in dialogue but "I`m the least of all of you" is still followed up with basically "I`m the man for the job to take down Lucifer". And "I`ve always felt impure" still doesn`t detain him from thinking he is the man for the job to close the gates of hell. Unlike Dean who he considers emotionally not capable enough to do it when you get right down to it.

 

Here, he still thinks God answered his prayer after ignoring everyone this side of creation for forever basically. Which may or may not have happened. 

 

And really, he is basically always right. He thinks low of himself but apparently never so low as to believe he is not the Chosen One for the job. To have confidence in those situations, he must still consider himself special and important enough and then to be validated or it, I just don`t buy the other stuff.

[SueB]

Sam's prayer:

 

"So...I know it's been a long time, but ....[sigh] ..Dean and I, we've -- we've been through a lot of bad. But this is different. This is my fault, and I don't know how to fix it. And if I have to die, I've made my peace with that, but ...please. Dean deserves better. Dean deserves a life. There are people out there, good people, who are going to suffer because of me, am I am not asking you to clean up my mess. Hell, I don't even know if you're out there, but...if you are...and if you can here me, I, um... we need your help God. We need to know there's hope. We need a sign."

 

So... what's different?  Put in context of the episode and how Sam appeared to be feeling, I don't think he's saying this time is different because it's Sam's fault.  I think the difference is the scope.

 

Here's what I mean by context:

- They just killed Death and did a spell to remove the Mark of Cain from Dean using the Book of the Damned (an apparently ancient evil, powerful book).  So... big doings.

- And JUST as Death predicted, it appeared it DID in fact unleash a horrible Darkness upon the earth.  As Sam said in the episode before a "force that could destroy this world".   

- So how is this DIFFERENT than letting Lucifer out of his cage back in S4 (because that was potentially world-ending as well)?  

 

- My answer:

 

1) Sam thinks he's going to die ... in short order. The last thing he did was check his infection progress before going to the chapel. So...IMO....Sam's prayer was like the last act of a desperate man.  He's about to go into Rabid-mode based on him scoping out the progress of his infection prior to heading to the chapel.  He thinks he's going to die and leave Dean with all of this.  He knows the ONE force likely to have the juice to help is God.  So... Sam's making what is close to a deathbed request while he still can.  And he knows Dean isn't going to do it. So, I'm guessing if he admits his mistake and asks humbly/sincerely (which I believe it is), he's hoping God might send a sign. Or even help.

 

2) At the start of S5 by the time Sam could get around to praying, God had already intervened and saved their ass.  Further, they had prophecies, and Angels, and Demons, and lore, and Bobby, and a shit ton of knowledge to go on.  With the Darkness and what appeared to be a mini Zombie apocalypse as an appetizer, I think Sam realized he was way way way out of his league.  They had the odds stacked against them in S4 but they had a low-probability but still working plan (avoid becoming the Micheal sword and find a way to kill the Devil). Plus God HAD just intervened.  At this moment in the season?... they got nothing.  

Edited October 23, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

 

- They just killed Death and did a spell to remove the Mark of Cain from Dean using the Book of the Damned (an apparently ancient evil, powerful book).  So... big doings.

 

I know this is my hangup but this is what is just really bugging me.  And I'm gonna nitpick this to death

 

Dean did not release the Darkness and Sam did not kill Death. Each made their own choice and neither had any idea what the other was really doing. I don't understand why the show is trying to push a narrative that these were things the boys did together. They just flat out didn't! Correlation =/= causation, if you will.

 

Now, it's fine for them to work together to try and fix what each of them broke but why can't they each just own their fucked upness and not make it joint ownership of separate problems. And even if I buy into joint ownership (which I don't!!) and joint solutions they go right back to secret keeping of big things!

 

So what is the show trying to tell me about the relationship when they spent 3 seasons saying that their togetherness is a curse upon the world but no really they are better together than apart?  Is the only answer to the Winchester Boys destroying the universe is to kill them at the same time?

 

It's annoying.

[sarthaz]

Sam's prayer:

 

"So...I know it's been a long time, but ....[sigh] ..Dean and I, we've -- we've been through a lot of bad. But this is different. This is my fault, and I don't know how to fix it. And if I have to die, I've made my peace with that, but ...please. Dean deserves better. Dean deserves a life. There are people out there, good people, who are going to suffer because of me, am I am not asking you to clean up my mess. Hell, I don't even know if you're out there, but...if you are...and if you can here me, I, um... we need your help God. We need to know there's hope. We need a sign."

 

 

Thanks for posting that!  Not sure I agree with your interpretation, but I appreciate you trying to bail the writers out :)

[catrox14]

Just rewatching for ....reasons...

 

I sill cannot believe they had this exchange between Dean and Crowley

 

Crowley: Poor girl, doesn't have a soul.

Dean: 'What? How is that even possible"

 

OH MY GODS SHOW. DEAN KNOWS EXACTLY HOW THAT IS POSSIBLE!!!

 

Argh...how can they have Dean actually say that?

 

I just can't believe any of the continuity monkeys would let that go.  I am becoming more and more convinced something else was in play.

[Binns]

Are you thinking AU? That's what I've been thinking for a lot of these episodes. 

[catrox14]

Are you thinking AU? That's what I've been thinking for a lot of these episodes. 

 

I don't know if it's AU or warped timeline or squirrelly memories or spellwork but I've been saying from the get go that something is rotten in Denmark.  I've been calling him Pod!Dean. Something is just.....off. 

[MysteryGuest]

I didn't take it to mean that Dean didn't know people could have their souls taken, since obviously he'd seen it happen before, and lived it with Sam.  I just thought he meant it as "how did she suddenly lose her soul, when she was perfectly normal just minutes before." He didn't know quite yet that Amara was feeding on souls.  

[catrox14]

I didn't take it to mean that Dean didn't know people could have their souls taken, since obviously he'd seen it happen before, and lived it with Sam.  I just thought he meant it as "how did she suddenly lose her soul, when she was perfectly normal just minutes before." He didn't know quite yet that Amara was feeding on souls.  

 

 

 

CROWLEY: Because this woman doesn't have a soul. Fascinating.

DEAN: What are you talking about? How is that even possible?

 

Regardless of Dean knowing about Amara eating souls or not, Dean knows that souls CAN be missing and how that happens.

 

It's the 'How is that even possible?' that grinds my gears.  The line implies this is some kind of new thing Dean never heard of before. Between the line itself and how Jensen played it, all I got was that Dean couldn't comprehend the idea of someone not having their soul at all vs not understanding how it was there and then wasn't.

 

What would have made sense for the interpretation that Dean was just flummoxed in the moment would have been Dean saying something like "Really? Soulless crap again? How?" That acknowledges he's dealt with it before but this is a new go-round. IMO he would not have said 'How is this even possible?'. Sorry but this will bug me to the end of time.

Edited March 7, 2016 by catrox14

[Dobian]

They need to name this kid Tabitha.  Or scary!Tabitha.

"Father" Crowley: 'Dean was a rather scrumptious altar boy'.  LOL!  God I love Crowley.

Edited October 8, 2016 by Dobian

[RulerofallIsurvey]

• I liked Sam praying in the chapel.  So very Sam.  But I don't know how he could ever mistake Hell visions for a sign from God.  Seriously.  Sam, WTF?  Billie's 'message' on the other hand - so very obvious.  I mean, since when do Reapers deliver messages?  And with Death (allegedly) dead, who would have given her this message - which just happened to lead Sam to the cure - in the first place?  Oh, and no Hell visions.  Double bonus.
• I liked the 'wins' this ep - Saving people.  
• I also liked the glimpse of still-bad-ass Dean after he pinned Crowley to the wall.  
• I also liked the return of some Dean humor.  
• I liked that Dean immediately turned around when Jenna called him.
• Sorry about Jenna though.  I liked her.  So, of course she had to die.
• Not really sorry to see Hannah gone.  Is that bad?
• ETA: nice continuity on the books still piled up in the LoL.

Edited October 11, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
continuity - who knew?

[bettername2come]

I like Sam zapping the other zombie guy. I like Jared's scene with him. Good work all around from Jared this episode.

Dean looks way too attractive holding a baby. I can't believe they actually did "Who're we gonna call?" "Ghostbusters." I like Dean calling the Darkness a giant, crazy fart. 

Cas just sounds so weak and sad when he says "I'm an angel of the Lord." My how the mighty have fallen. Poor Castiel. Hannah betraying him and then trying to play hero. I liked the new Hannah. He should've stayed. 

Nice introduction to Billie the reaper with the singing and the neat shot where her shadow seems to be holding that guy's hand. Nice threat with the Empty, although I fear it will be as underwhelming heaven and purgatory have become. Damn, why is everything always trying to tell Sam how unclean he is? I love Sam praying in the chapel, stowing his gun when he goes in. "We need a sign...what does that mean?!" might be the funniest serious moment I've ever seen on this show. And look, I know I say I want shirtless Sam at any given time, but, come on, the hooks just ruin it. I love Sam being smart and finding a way to save the zombies. I like when Sam's smart. Although he's also keeping visions a secret. That tends not to go well for him. 

Don't trust any priest who uses the phrase "scrumptious young altar boy." Crowley would have sources inside the Catholic church. Psycho Jenna with no soul. She makes Soulless Sam look downright reasonable. What was up with the music during her and Dean's fight? "I'm not your bloody sidekick!" What show you been watching, Crowley?

[Hanahope]

Lol, Crowley as a priest.  Though he gave a good reason, with the whole demon possession/exorcism thing.  Yeah, not going to think about why he'd have nuns and priests on his 'payroll.'

So Amara is going to be the fast growing more than human big bad with powers like I've seen before in Buffy, Stargate, sortof Angel.  A bit of retread on that plotline.  Crowley 'feeding' her at the end with the people, ew.  All we need, more soulless people running arund.

Of course, Sam's disease was 'slow' and he got a conveniently handed clue to figure out the cure. And he's getting visions of the cage with Lucifer and Michael again.  Maybe we will get the archangles back, though whether they will help is another question.

And Dean knows he's connected to Amara, again, will he help or fight?

And Cas can't be cured by angels.  Guess he'll have to find Rowena.

[The Companion]

On 10/14/2015 at 10:27 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

Dean's story was a little better, but why does it seem that Crowley always has to get the better of everybody all the time on this show? Is he the "hero" (or anti-hero in this case) of the show now? The only way I'll be happy about this is if in the future Crowley has to come crawling to the Winchesters for help, because he created a monster by helping Amara.

I really don't like Crowley, who is more or less human depending on what the plot requires and who is in love with his own voice. But I find it particularly annoying that he keeps getting a pass. I don't want to hear how killing monsters is what they do, and then watch Dean no kill Crowley for no reason. At least he is bad enough at his job to have his plans backfire.

On 10/14/2015 at 11:36 PM, ahrtee said:

   For the rest of it, I'm not a fan of gratuitous torture and gore, and I couldn't find any reason whatsoever for the angels to even be in the episode except to get rid of Hannah once and for all.  And IIRC, the "halo of torture" device they were using to "probe" Cas...was used by demons to get into Samandriel's programming (and later Gadreel's mind).  Naomi used a dentist's drill.

Yeah, I am at a loss with regard to why we needed the angels here. There were plenty of ways to establish that Heaven was in chaos. Nobody seriously believed Castiel was in peril. I just didn't get it.

Oh, and show, giving her a penis doesn't invalidate the fact that you just killed off yet another recurring female on your show. Nobody wants to watch angel infighting at this point. Hannah had established order and we were probably all good with that. 🙄

On 10/15/2015 at 9:17 AM, SueB said:

- Crowley is so playing out of his weight class. He correctly identified that Amara is a evil world-shattering threat, and he got CLOSER.  It's pure Crowley but he's playing a very dangerous game.  OTOH... this is exactly what excites him.  He's bored easily.  I think that's HIS Hell.  And he hung with the Winchesters because they were interesting.  But he was TOTALLY eating up the intrigue with a spoon this week.  I'd say he's as happy as he gets right about now.  And so Dean, you are tossed aside like yesterday's news for his new playmate.  

. . .

- The Reaper - ooooh I liked her.  She was there to provide a message.  She said it directly.  She didn't need human form to reap souls.  She was taking her sweet time to let Sam know he and Dean are on their list.  I liked the menace and the level of threat it provides.  Meta says that they will NOT end up in the ether, but Sam and Dean need to have a little more fear of death.  So I like her raising the stakes a bit.  Plus, awesome voice.  

 

Crowley is definitely outmatched. I do think he believes they are natural allies and he will be able to raise her and use her, but he is missing that the demons and hell are just as insignificant to her.

I really loved Billie. She was a highlight. I would actually have been totally on board with more reaper, less angel torture. How are they reacting to Death? How are they responding to a mass casualty event. What's the status of the veil? These questions and more ignored in favor if making Castiel scream.

On 10/16/2015 at 1:25 PM, SueB said:

Cas hid it.

DEFINITELY NOT IN HIS TUMMY. 😬😆

On 10/20/2015 at 1:50 PM, mizkat said:

Mark Sheppard I love you, but you are way past your expiration date on this show. Dean should have knifed you. Or you should have atomized him like you threatened. The Dean/Crowley relationship has replaced Sam/Dean as the most dysfunctional on the show. 

This. Crowley kills without reservation and has no leverage.

I told them they needed to get that baby some food. 😆

Despite the rather uninspiring cure for the zombies, I actually enjoyed that storyline. I thought the tension and buildup were good. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, The Companion said:

and then watch Dean no kill Crowley for no reason. At least he is bad enough at his job to have his plans backfire.

That's my major issue with Crowley.  Dean and Sam keep letting him go.  They've had oodles of opportunities to kill him. If Dean could stab his hand to keep him pressed to the wall, he could stab him in a more fatal area.  Of course, the same could be said of Crowley. He could have easily have killed the two of them just by flicking their necks. Might not bother due to wondering how long they would stay dead, though.

[The Companion]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

That's my major issue with Crowley.  Dean and Sam keep letting him go.  They've had oodles of opportunities to kill him. If Dean could stab his hand to keep him pressed to the wall, he could stab him in a more fatal area.  Of course, the same could be said of Crowley. He could have easily have killed the two of them just by flicking their necks. Might not bother due to wondering how long they would stay dead, though.

Yes! He comes off as kind of petty and small by focusing so heavily on the Winchesters and refusing to kill them without justifying it. He is supposed to have a renewed commitment to evil. Where is the bite? 

I would be fine if he was being super manipulative, or if he was trying to get good characters to go bad, or if he was toying with them, etc. It doesn't feel like any of that is happening.

I didn't believe for one second that Dean would stab him. Maybe Sam, but not Dean. If they are so obsessed with super shocking deaths, that would have actually been surprising. I also didn't believe he would kill Sam when Sam tried to kill him. That is a problem. If he is supposed to be so evil, there needs to be some actual danger to these scenes.

In prior seasons, they at least had him hold something over them and/or he wanted something from them.