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S11.E02: Form And Void


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Sam would be freaked out by a flashback to hell. He'd recognize it, of course. But how would he know it meant he needed to chit-chat with Luci? We know, because we're analyzing everything to death here, and we have hints and whatnot that Sam doesn't have. All Sam knows is that Bob was warred on by God, stuffed away in the void, and locked up. In the meantime, Sam's dealing with a town full of Bobveins, has a case of the Bobveins himself, knows he's dying, and doesn't know that the boys in the Cage are raising a ruckus down in Hell. So "What the hell does that mean?" is pretty understandable to me...

Well add to that that he's not exactly mentally 100% due to the Bobveins. Plus his first thought might well have been " now is when my Hell hallucinations start back up? Now? Like I don't have enough on my plate!"

I thought this was an excellent episode, from Billie the Reaper to baby Amara bringing back memories of Corinne and Tim Flotsky's baby being possessed on Soap to Sam figuring out the hint (and I wonder if she was instructed to give the hint) to Crowley dressing up as a priest for very logical reasons.

But enough with the angel torture, okay?

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Quick question. Why didn't Bob turn Jenna? Was it because she was in a car, like Sam? Did you have to be outside like the road workers to initially be turned?

 

And another thing. If you're infected you die, so what's Bob's point?

 

One more thing, and I'll shut up.

 

Crowley is the King of Hell. Does he watch over the cage?

 

I'm going to bed. This show has over taken the NFL in my life. That's scary!

1) Yes. It seems like it was the smoke fart that turned people (versus Amara herself) and you had to be outside to get it. Others subsequently infected were from Rabids attacking.

2) If Bob = Smoke fart then either it had no point but was just random destruction in the vicinity of where Bob was released OR see my theory that if the Rabids were after the Baby then the smoke fart was not of Amara's doing. If Bob= The Darkness= Amara, then the Rabids were just random destruction and her purpose is to be free and eat souls.

But it's an excellent question. If the smoke fart had a purpose, why have a shelf life?

3). The cage is in Hell but I think Crowley doesn't control it. Just like Lilith didn't and had to go to great lengths to break the seals.

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Maybe it ran out of smoke. It has to have limitations after all or the entire Earth would have been enveloped in it.

If it eats souls will Amara go after Heaven and Hell? Crowley may want to rethink his must feed a growing girl bit.

Whoever the costumer is likes to dress girls similarly.

Poor Jenna.

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Quick question. Why didn't Bob turn Jenna? Was it because she was in a car, like Sam? Did you have to be outside like the road workers to initially be turned?

 

And another thing. If you're infected you die, so what's Bob's point?

 

I'm suspecting it's not Bob who infected those guys. It seemed they wanted Amara, and not in a good way. So, I'm thinking it's either that Amara isn't Bob but some other force that was released when Bob was freed or the zombies are some other counter-point to Bob. It could go either way at this point. It would make how Amara carries the Mark--the thing God used to lock up Bob--make sense if she wasn't Bob herself. But, it is Supernatural, which usually means, if it walks like a duck...

 

 

Crowley is the King of Hell. Does he watch over the cage?

 

Yep, and that's why his minions got all scared when there was some kerfuffle in the cage when Bob was set free. Crowley's smart to stay away from the cage though and instead try to befriend Bob--I imagine Mike and Lucy are still a bit pissed at Crowley. Well, "smart" probably isn't the right word, but I'm thinking he learned sufficiently from his trying to control Demon Dean, though. 

Edited by DittyDotDot
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If simply eating souls is Amara`s purpose then I think the writers once again greately oversold it with the "what does the Darkness want, noone will be able to guess". Random evol world destruction by whatever means was anyone`s first guess. 

 

I think I figured out why the episode was so disjointed for me. The Cas parts were completely random torture porn and that already made up a third of the episode.

 

Dean and Crowley technically dealt with the main thread aka Amara but this was just exposition since it`s only the second episode of the Season and they can`t very well finish that story here. Their banter carried the scenes through but Dean couldn`t very well have a win here.    

 

Lastly was Sam`s story where they laid it on super thick how wonderful he is and don`t you want to worship at his feet right now? Um, nope. If I wanted to read fanfiction by Becky...no, I never want to. And since this part was self contained, Sam could conclude his story with a big win. Since Dabb plugged that part at Comic Con, I also think that was what he most invested in. Guess his stan tendecies lie opposite to mine.

 

That makes three stories, one I can`t be bothered to become invested in because why the fuck is it even there? One that hammers on every writing trope that annoys me in this show so it`s migraine-ville. And one I am interested in that for narrative reasons can`t really go anywhere. That`s like showing up for a three-course meal where you don`t like the starter and the main course and just the dessert looks good. Only, someone already ate most of it. Aaaaah.   

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I'm suspecting it's not Bob who infected those guys. It seemed they wanted Amara, and not in a good way. So, I'm thinking it's either that Amara isn't Bob but some other force that was released when Bob was freed or the zombies are some other counter-point to Bob. It could go either way at this point. It would make how Amara carries the Mark--the thing God used to lock up Bob--make sense if she wasn't Bob herself. But, it is Supernatural, which usually means, if it walks like a duck...

 

 

 

Yep, and that's why his minions got all scared when there was some kerfuffle in the cage when Bob was set free. Crowley's smart to stay away from the cage though and instead try to befriend Bob--I imagine Mike and Lucy are still a bit pissed at Crowley. Well, "smart" probably isn't the right word, but I'm thinking he learned sufficiently from his trying to control Demon Dean, though. 

 

I was thinking about this first point, and this is why I'm starting to hate you Dot

 

If Amara is Bob, than Bob must be just random evil, some of which want to kill her. But why? Why kill the thing that brought them all back to earth?  Why did you have to point this out Dot? You're driving us nuts!

Cas hid it.

 

Okay, so can Dean still use it, or will Amara want it now?

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I was thinking about this first point, and this is why I'm starting to hate you Dot

 

If Amara is Bob, than Bob must be just random evil, some of which want to kill her. But why? Why kill the thing that brought them all back to earth?  Why did you have to point this out Dot? You're driving us nuts!

 

Aww!  My work here is done, then. ;)

 

 

Okay, so can Dean still use it, or will Amara want it now?

 

Only someone who bears the Mark can use the Blade. Without the Mark, the Blade is basically a useless jawbone. I highly doubt it's even sharp enough to cut a tomato, let alone stab a person.

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Well, "smart" probably isn't the right word, but I'm thinking he learned sufficiently from his trying to control Demon Dean, though.

 

His thought process seems to be:  "I couldn`t control Dean, better start with something easier, like the force God barely defeated."  

 

It reminded me of trying to cozy up to the Leviathans and they were like "ewww, we don`t need no stinkin vermin as allies". I`m sure Amara is happy to eat all the candy Crowley will provide her with but in the end, I don`t think she considers anyone remotely her equal enough to ally with them. Or to benefit them. So far, she only kinda maybe propositioned Dean to be Prince Consort. 

 

Can`t argue with her there of course. Say about her what you want but she is a Darkness of impeccable taste.

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Only someone who bears the Mark can use the Blade. Without the Mark, the Blade is basically a useless jawbone. I highly doubt it's even sharp enough to cut a tomato, let alone stab a person.

 

Yup, and oh look, Amara has the mark... either (hopefully) Castiel destroyed it, threw it up into space, etc. or this is potentially not gonna end well if Amara gets a hold of that thing. Which brings up another question... since she bears the mark, too, does that mean only someone with the mark can kill her also, or was that only for the Knights of Hell? Does Lucifer still have the mark? Are they going to have to let him out so he can kill Amara? Is Sam going to have to let Lucifer possess him again in order to kill Amara? Will Dean finally have to let Michael in to make sure that LuciferSam doesn't become a threat and they fight together - again - to get rid of the Darkness?

 

Actually I think that might be an interesting plot arc for Sam - and a source of conflict for Sam and Dean, and might explain why Dean will "help" Amara potentially at first (because Dean wouldn't think a Lucifer possessing Sam plan would be a good thing to repeat.)

 

Dean and Crowley technically dealt with the main thread aka Amara but this was just exposition since it`s only the second episode of the Season and they can`t very well finish that story here. Their banter carried the scenes through but Dean couldn`t very well have a win here.    

 

Lastly was Sam`s story where they laid it on super thick how wonderful he is and don`t you want to worship at his feet right now? Um, nope. If I wanted to read fanfiction by Becky...no, I never want to. And since this part was self contained, Sam could conclude his story with a big win. Since Dabb plugged that part at Comic Con, I also think that was what he most invested in. Guess his stan tendecies lie opposite to mine.

 

Miles definitely vary, because I didn't see it as laying it on very thick. Sam's story here lasted all of one and a half episodes and was shared with two other plots, one of which is obviously going to be more of an ongoing thing. Much of the saving happened offscreen, Sam obviously got some help here and whether inadvertent or not we don't know, the solving of the problem didn't really take all that much sacrifice or heroics (it involved a Holy Marshmallow (TM whoever brilliantly thought that up). How cheesy can you get?), and one person thanked him. So Sam gets a small, token "save some of the people who you caused to be infected while once again starting an apocalypse because you didn't think enough before acting" story. I personally think it was about time Sam got a win. Except for de-demoning Dean and maybe the time he killed the demon nun and saved a couple of souls, Sam hadn't had a decent-sized win in about 5 seasons. I really don't think this one small win now is asking me to worship at Sam's feet, especially if that is the end of his contribution and he has little to do with the main mytharc ongoing with Amara. Because in that case, it would be more like - to use your meal analogy - throwing Sam a bone while Dean, Crowley and/or Castiel get to eat the main course (kind of like most of the last 5 seasons). I'm hoping it's more like what I predicted above and this has at least something to do with Lucifer and Sam and Dean and Michael.

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Miles definitely vary, because I didn't see it as laying it on very thick.

 

I think in the Premiere it started with "he is the most moral person, wanting to save everyone" and in this episode we got "look at how smart he is, making gadgets" in the store to "look at how sacrifical and humble he is" with his prayer in the chapel to "look at how heroic he is, aren`t you glad he was the most moral person in the Premiere and actually did save everyone like he said he would" in the end. No wonder there is speculation right now that he will end the show as the new God. 

 

Yes, the cure was silly. Because they needed to come up with a quick fix in the episode. It retroactively makes stuff like the Croatoan virus look silly, too, because maybe if they had googled it, it could have been solved within seconds.

 

The scope of Sam`s story wasn`t so much tiresome to me but the presentation of it. It reminded me of Thompson`s writing for Charlie. He laid it on pretty thick as well and I had a problem with that too. If any writer ever does that with Dean, it might bother me, too. But I`ll cross that bridge when I come to it. 

 

Dean`s parts in this episode didn`t give me the impression that Dabb actually had any interest in them. He wrote them because apparently certain plot points needed to be there but to me it came across that it was the part he really cared the least about. Whereas I think he was really ga-ga over writing the Sam-parts and to some degree the Cas-parts, even though they played no role storywise.

Meaning, I felt disenfranchised from the writing since my interest lies opposite to apparently Dabb`s.

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 No wonder there is speculation right now that he will end the show as the new God. 

 

Dude, what websites are you visiting and for your own mental health can I recommend you stop it?  I'm going to say right now that no WAY does Sam end up as God.  J2 wouldn't stand for such a divide.  

If Amara is Bob, than Bob must be just random evil, some of which want to kill her. But why? Why kill the thing that brought them all back to earth?  Why did you have to point this out Dot? You're driving us nuts!

Go back and read my "God's Boobytrap" theory.  I think God put the smoke fart on the lock that contained the darkness.  When it broke, the smoke fart was a booby trap to try and kill Amara before she grew powerful.  Dean, unfortunately, saved the baby and now she's started to make her moves.  

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Dude, what websites are you visiting and for your own mental health can I recommend you stop it?  I'm going to say right now that no WAY does Sam end up as God.  J2 wouldn't stand for such a divide.  

 

I've not heard about Sam becoming God, but I have seen spec that he will be the new Jesus. I can see why that theory exists. 

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Dude, what websites are you visiting and for your own mental health can I recommend you stop it?

 

It`s a popular theory on tumblr. I am about 85 % sure it`s not gonna happen - you notice I left a 15 % margin of error, though, because if ever I thought writers would go to such ridiculous length to butter up a character, it is on this show. But it not happening would be IMO only because they would think people might be a bit iffy on messing around with God-God so much. Also, I don`t think Jared would have a problem with it as a story at all. And Jensen would probably say "well, he is first on the call sheet". And that would be that.  

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Yup, and oh look, Amara has the mark... either (hopefully) Castiel destroyed it, threw it up into space, etc. or this is potentially not gonna end well if Amara gets a hold of that thing. Which brings up another question... since she bears the mark, too, does that mean only someone with the mark can kill her also, or was that only for the Knights of Hell? 

 

I'd guess that Amara--assuming that Amara is Bob, which I'm not yet convinced of--can't die. I'm just guessing that's why God locked Bob up back in the day rather than doing the deed himself. Now, if Amara is not Bob, then the answer to that question would be dependent on what Amara actually is. So, basically, I just gave you a big ol' long-winded "I don't know".

 

I know the Knights of Hell were killed by Cain, but wasn't it believed that they were killed by arc angels? Maybe there's a reason for that belief?

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Go back and read my "God's Boobytrap" theory.  I think God put the smoke fart on the lock that contained the darkness.  When it broke, the smoke fart was a booby trap to try and kill Amara before she grew powerful.  Dean, unfortunately, saved the baby and now she's started to make her moves.

 

 

If it was a booby trap, was God just banking on the bearer of the Mark killing the Darkness? Did God not realize the Darkness was bound to the bearer?

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I think God was banking on turning the nearest local sentient beings into rabid creatures attacking the newly manifested Darkness.  Perhaps he, correctly, presumed that the Darkness would take a while to gain strength and would be vulnerable when first released.

 

I think the Mark's former carrier being bound to the Darkness was not part of the plan. If Death is correct, and the Mark became twisted due to the Darkness' influence, then I think there are elements of the Mark that God didn't plan.

 

To put it differently, if you were going to lock up something that would destroy the universe you created, you'd probably make an indestructible lock and key and provide some sort of fail-safe if it in fact WAS broken.  This was pre-Angel creation.  So, I'm thinking that the smoke-fart was pretty much "Attack Amara!" orders.  Shelf-life existed because it would only work for a while and that limited the number of his creations he threw under the bus in an attempt to stop the Big Bad.

 

Back to the comment that "eating souls" seems like no big whoop.   I'm going to tell you, if it can eat souls I bet it can also eat Grace. I bet it eats ANYTHING that is made of the Light.  It is, in fact, the opposite of Light.  In pecking order; I'd say human souls are the most powerful, Angel Grace would be next, and demon souls are probably okay-ish but not as useful (they are twisted and dark already).  Even though Angels are more powerful than humans (remember Anna said grace was "pure creation"), God and the Angels seemed to value human souls more.  

 

So... if Amara becomes Tippi's Smog Monster and starts consuming souls and grace in mass quantities.... IDK, maybe the universe collapses on itself eventually. 

 

I think there's a great deal of potential with the Darkness being the anti-Light and eating souls/grace a big threat.  

 

ETA: And Crowley... you are SOOOOO out of your league.  I bet you turn to those denim-clad nightmares by mid-season for help.  

 

ETA2: And you know, if Dean is bound to Amara -- that kinda makes him immortal doesn't it?  She's immortal and "always" seemed to imply there was no end date on that relationship. I mean, if he's killed, would Amara just let that happen?  If I were Dean, the first thing I'd tell the rest of Team Free Will is that if he (Dean) has some connection they might consider killing him to weaken her.  They won't do it (and I doubt it can be done), but that connection is going to be important I think.  

Edited by SueB
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I think the Mark's former carrier being bound to the Darkness was not part of the plan. If Death is correct, and the Mark became twisted due to the Darkness' influence, then I think there are elements of the Mark that God didn't plan.

 

See this is what makes this whole thing squirelly to me.

 

Wouldn't that mean God is not actually omniscient?  If God knew about the Darkness and thought to set a trap, how could God not have known that  own son, Lucifer was being corrupted by the Mark?

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Canon, catrox. Like, canon from the world we live in. The question of "if God is all-knowing and powerful, why is there evil in the world?" has been grappled with by philosophers and theologians for millennia. As soon as you posit a single God responsible for everything, and then place a "good" label on him, the questions start. The closest thing to an answer is that God works in mysterious ways; i.e., he's got a plan, and everything is moving to the completion of that plan.

Don't expect Superntural to have the answers. ;-)

But it's also canon on the show. The grand plan was for an apocalypse. Sam and Dean already put the kibosh on that. So God, in the Supernatural universe, is already seen to have made mistakes. This is the almighty dude who has run away from his responsibilities, washed his hands of his creation.

Another answer, given in both the real world and in-show, is free will. God creates his creatures and says go forth and make mistakes. Castiel is an example that angels, too, have the ability to choose free will. Once you allow free will into the equation, with the connotation that God has no idea what you'll do with it, boom. Possibilities for things God wanted or planned to go awry abound.

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Respectfully, aside from mythology information I am not intending to get into any RL religious discussions. My comment was certainly not intended to be about that. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

 

I'm speaking only of context within the show. Henceforth I will refer to the God in Supernatural as SPN!God to avoid any further confusion.

 

It's been heavily implied that SPN!God is omniscient. He did intervene when he put them on a plane to save them. But that he CHOSE to not intervene when Sam and Dean were at their wits end in s5 according to Joshua, that it wasn't his problem. I don't remember it being implied that SPN!God made any mistakes re the Apocalypse. He does seem to know what's going on in the SPN verse but made choices and left it up the Free Will of Sam and Dean to do whatever they were going to do. I don't think that necessarily equates to mistakes.

 

So it seems to me here in the show that SPN!God would have had a better idea of what the Mark would, could or should do should do?

 

My point that I clearly failed to make was that it seems like a poor booby trap if SPN!God didn't factor the Darkness' ability to influence humans. 

 

So for me I don't think that smoke fart was a booby trap. I think it was something the Darkness used to protect itself.

Edited by catrox14
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Different subject about the episode.

 

Here's a weird thing I'm nitpicking. 

 

In the the scene as the guys are walking back to the car after Dean wakes up, Dean's not really clear on what he can remember and he says. "You were there! The storm hit and everything went dark".

 

I'm trying to figure out why Dean called it the storm. Dean saw the lightning come from the sky and zap his arm. Then they went outside and saw the lightning hit the ground and saw all the smoke tendrils come up and combine into that giant smoke monster.  Sam asks him what did Death call this? Dean says , "The Darkness".  So they were already calling it the Darkness as it was forming right in front of their eyes, so I'm curious why he's calling it a "storm" here.   Just weird.   

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I'm sorry, I obviously didn't get my point across. I was not trying to argue religion, I was pointing out that if thousands of years of writers and thinkers can't resolve the question of why doesn't omniscient God know about evil, then why should the writers of Supernatural be able to resolve the question within the show? Show canon has it that free will is a big dealio in the SPN universe. SPN canon also has it that angels (as represented by Cas) can have free will. Lucifer, pre-Bob storyline, was already shown to have free will, too, as he rebelled against the SPN God's order to love humanity more than him. We don't know whether this was a surprise to SPN's God or not, but if it was a surprise to him, then it's canon that the SPN God is not omniscient, and thus could be surprised by any moves Bob made in respect to interacting with any of his/her creations that have free will.

Also, if it was a booby trap, it could always have been added after Lucifer rebelled, and after God knew beings wearing the MoC could be influenced by Bob.

For what it's worth.

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My thoughts on why God would need a booby trap - it took God and the Archangels to defeat the Darkness.  He didn't just waive his hands and say "be gone with 'ya".  That makes (in SPN-verse) the Darkness an SPN God-class opponent.  So, he could be defeated by her -- in theory -- I think.  

 

 So they were already calling it the Darkness as it was forming right in front of their eyes, so I'm curious why he's calling it a "storm" here.   Just weird.   

 

If you look at how it manifested, it looked like a tornado would (the straw bits flying into the camera and things getting plowed down). Plus Mike and newscasters thought it was a storm.  In short, even tho Dean knew it was the Darkness, the smoke-fart had a storm like effect in terms of physicality.  So... "storm" is probably a better term than "the darkness hit" because it give you that kinetic aspect.  I suppose he could have said "darkness wave-front" but that sounds more Sam-like than Dean-like.  IDK... I don't think he was confused, just simplifying.    

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 All Sam knows is that Bob was warred on by God, stuffed away in the void, and locked up. In the meantime, Sam's dealing with a town full of Bobveins, has a case of the Bobveins himself, knows he's dying, and doesn't know that the boys in the Cage are raising a ruckus down in Hell. So "What the hell does that mean?" is pretty understandable to me...

Must be tired...But I'm missing the Bob reference. 

 

Not buying that Sam and Dean are being killed off, unless it is the last ep.  I also wondered could Dean and Sam being doing a different walk like Sam did in season 6?  Crowley will have to come crawling back for help after feeding the darkness souls...Could she play with him and leave him mostly dead so the spiders can come and play with him?

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Must be tired...But I'm missing the Bob reference. 

 

Not buying that Sam and Dean are being killed off, unless it is the last ep.  I also wondered could Dean and Sam being doing a different walk like Sam did in season 6?  Crowley will have to come crawling back for help after feeding the darkness souls...Could she play with him and leave him mostly dead so the spiders can come and play with him?

 

Some are calling the Darkness "Bob". I'm not. It's too confusing.

 

Can you elaborate on the "different walk" thing of s6?

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I've not heard about Sam becoming God, but I have seen spec that he will be the new Jesus. I can see why that theory exists.

 

 

Funny, I've been reading for three seasons at least how Dean is Jesus. There are pretty elaborate theories out there on Dean fan sites that he is Jesus in cognito and perhaps has no memory of his true identity. This is all taken quite seriously. Some Dean fans truly think he is going to be revealed as the Second Coming.

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Some are calling the Darkness "Bob". I'm not. It's too confusing.

 

Can you elaborate on the "different walk" thing of s6?

Ah...now I get it.  lol

 

In season 6, Sam had his hands move with his feet instead of opposite of his feet.  When we walk, one arm naturally moves opposite of the matching leg.  Instead Jared had the arms out of sync and it took fans a while to figure out what was off.  Jensen thought it was an awesome idea.  So could they be doing something together that is out of sorts but not obvious for those of us that don't pick up that stuff?  Just wondering haven't watched the ep again.

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Funny, I've been reading for three seasons at least how Dean is Jesus. There are pretty elaborate theories out there on Dean fan sites that he is Jesus in cognito and perhaps has no memory of his true identity. This is all taken quite seriously. Some Dean fans truly think he is going to be revealed as the Second Coming.

 

Ha! Well that's a new one. I can't fathom that one. Him being Michael's vessel or the Michael sword again? Sure. I can see that. But Jesus? Wow. Not seeing that one.

 

I don't want either brother to end up being SPN!God, Jesus or anything like that.

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I know the Knights of Hell were killed by Cain, but wasn't it believed that they were killed by arc angels? Maybe there's a reason for that belief?

 

You may be right on that. I seem to remember the story saying something like that, too, now that you mention it. Maybe there are different classes of Knights of Hell? I just remember that both Abaddon and Cain could only be killed by the Blade wielded by someone carrying the mark. And Dean himself couldn't be killed entirely by Metatron with the power of the word of God on his side and an angel blade. So I'm guessing that Amara seems like a high powered mark wielder, and so maybe that if the show decided to go in that direction, I can see an argument that even not at full strength, she could only be killed by the Blade being wielded by someone with the mark of Cain, and theoretically the only person who either has a mark or could "create" another mark would be Lucifer.

 

In the same vein, if Lucifer still has the mark, could releasing him from the cage mean that another key to locking the Darkness up will exist again? Then the question becomes: which is worse Lucifer or the Darkness? But also, conveniently (or maybe inconveniently,) the only archangel we have left is also in the cage, so with either scenario -  the Darkness being defeated by archangel or the Darkness being defeated by a mark of Cain bearer and the blade - with what we currently know, in my opinion, the answer seems to be in the cage in hell.

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I agree catrox. Who said that Chuck's books would become "The Gospels Of Winchester"? Cas maybe? At at any rate, that's not a description of the second coming.


You may be right on that. I seem to remember the story saying something like that, too, now that you mention it. Maybe there are different classes of Knights of Hell? I just remember that both Abaddon and Cain could only be killed by the Blade wielded by someone carrying the mark. And Dean himself couldn't be killed entirely by Metatron with the power of the word of God on his side and an angel blade. So I'm guessing that Amara seems like a high powered mark wielder, and so maybe that if the show decided to go in that direction, I can see an argument that even not at full strength, she could only be killed by the Blade being wielded by someone with the mark of Cain, and theoretically the only person who either has a mark or could "create" another mark would be Lucifer.

 

In the same vein, if Lucifer still has the mark, could releasing him from the cage mean that another key to locking the Darkness up will exist again? Then the question becomes: which is worse Lucifer or the Darkness? But also, conveniently (or maybe inconveniently,) the only archangel we have left is also in the cage, so with either scenario -  the Darkness being defeated by archangel or the Darkness being defeated by a mark of Cain bearer and the blade - with what we currently know, in my opinion, the answer seems to be in the cage in hell.

 

I'm going to a quiet corner to think about this one! I can't wait for Mick to get back from the studio. This will keep him up all night!

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In the same vein, if Lucifer still has the mark, could releasing him from the cage mean that another key to locking the Darkness up will exist again? Then the question becomes: which is worse Lucifer or the Darkness? But also, conveniently (or maybe inconveniently,) the only archangel we have left is also in the cage, so with either scenario - the Darkness being defeated by archangel or the Darkness being defeated by a mark of Cain bearer and the blade - with what we currently know, in my opinion, the answer seems to be in the cage in hell.

Well there is always the possibility that Gabriel is alive.
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ETA2: And you know, if Dean is bound to Amara -- that kinda makes him immortal doesn't it?  She's immortal and "always" seemed to imply there was no end date on that relationship. I mean, if he's killed, would Amara just let that happen?  If I were Dean, the first thing I'd tell the rest of Team Free Will is that if he (Dean) has some connection they might consider killing him to weaken her.  They won't do it (and I doubt it can be done), but that connection is going to be important I think.

 

 

I don't remember them saying the Darkness is immortal. I think it probably can die but only over thousands of millennia when maybe when it gets to the end of the universe. Like when the last star finally dies in the universe akin to Doctor Who and the Utopia arc when Captain Jack would be last man alive. (Damn I miss Torchwood!)

 

 I think someone else here said it might that it's just trying to live it's life and not actively trying to hurt anyone just wants to exist which is probably the case as it's shaping up is that it's food is souls.

 

IMO if that is the case then IMO the SPN!God locked the Darkness away because it was going eventually consume all the souls in heaven, hell and on earth and wherever else souls exist. That would make sense why it scares both angels and demons because it will take the souls from everything and IMO we end up with all humans becoming Soulless Sam and it becomes the Soulless Samocalypse.  Now that part could be fun. Seeing what humanity would do to each other without anyone having souls.

 

Maybe Billie's threats to send Sam and Dean into the Void is not actually foreshadowing the end of their existence but rather how they could at least die with their souls intact. They could be atomized but that doesn't necessarily destroy their souls because if even one atom of them exists theoretically that could be enough for SPN!God to reconstitute them. Maybe their souls would be used as a petri dish for creating other souls. Maybe that's how they could be become "gods" in the "Winchester Gospels".

 

Hmmm

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Maybe Billie's threats to send Sam and Dean into the Void is not actually foreshadowing the end of their existence but rather how they could at least die with their souls intact.

 

I thought it was foreshadowing the solution to the Darkness. Where can you put it so it will never cause harm again? Earth, Heaven, Hell and Purgatory are all out of the picture. Gee, there is a place nothing comes back from and apparently you can put stuff and people there. 

 

If they`re re-doing Season 5 here, they will likely redo Suck Song as well. Hopefully Dean will get a part this time.  

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No, just no on the Jesus thing.  First of all, Jesus has never been part of the mythology on this show.  And I have a hard enough time with the way God and angels, etc are portrayed here, lol.  In the infamous words of Kubrick "Don't play with my Jesus".  ha ha

 

I don't know if I missed the discussion, but someone mentioned Death upthread and I am hella confused about the mythology of Death on this show.  Reapers were around and reaping long before Death was brought about on the show.  So what's his actual purpose?
In Abandon All Hope, its said that Death is the Daddy Reaper, trapped in a box since forever and Lucifer raises him.  Death is a Horseman.  SO if he was trapped for all time and then raised... well does his existence mean nothing to the actual flow of people who die?  Reapers do their job regardless, yes?  Did he get let out of his cage and take over and that's why the reaper in this ep seemed not so impressed with Death's "reign"?

Just... confused on this one.


Oh and forgot to say:  I liked this episode!  It was creepy and fun (always love a good Crowley/Dean scene).  I just ignore the SaintSam stuff (lots of practice there) and can at least appreciate that he was advocating for his brother in the chapel.  That was nice.

Though the lying going on still, between the two of them...  why is this still a thing?

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It seems to me that Amara and the Darkness are different beings.  Amara wasn't a bit concerned that soul-less Jenna could have killed Dean.  She just wandered off.  Didn't the Darkness say she and Dean would always help each other? 

 

Amara the baby liked Dean, but the young girl didn't seem to have a connection at all.

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It seems to me that Amara and the Darkness are different beings.  Amara wasn't a bit concerned that soul-less Jenna could have killed Dean.  She just wandered off.  Didn't the Darkness say she and Dean would always help each other? 

 

Amara the baby liked Dean, but the young girl didn't seem to have a connection at all.

I'm not sure whether Amara is the Darkness or not but it seems to be alluding to that.

Re Dean and the darkness helping each other. I suppose it's really how you define what "help" means here. She may be helping him but only to the extent that it helps her. It may not be beneficial to Dean in the long run.

Crowley saved Dean from Jenna so I wonder why he did that beyond their strange relationship.

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Personally, I'm thinking that the woman Dean met in that cloud is Amara, but that doesn't mean that Amara is Bob. Dean obviously thought she was Bob and now that he's seen the Mark on the Baby thinks Amara is Bob also. 

 

Perhaps Amara did save Dean by pulling him out of Baby? Maybe she saved him from Bob? Maybe Amara has been helping Dean all along, but she just didn't think Dean needed help fighting off Jenna? So far, though, it seems Dean has been helping Amara unwittingly. 

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Did not like this one. Edited in too choppy of a fashion. I can appreciate them trying to tell the three stories, but the execution of that was horrendous. Way too much Cas torture porn. So over that. Way too much SaintlySammySue. So over that, too. And what he said about Dean in the chapel set alarm bells ringing in my head because it's exactly the same kind of nonsense that happened right before Dean was booted from the myth-arc in S5 and 8. I'm not watching DomesticatedDean again nd it will be ridiculous, IMO, if they even try to go that well again. Dean should just tell Sam that he HAS a life that he's happy with, at some point, and that hunting is the largest part of it. It is, after all, what we've been shown over all the seasons of this show. SAM is the one who has been shown to us as flip flopping on this particular issue over the course of the series-so I'd like Dean to point that out to him, again, at some point and it wouldn't hurt if he also pointed out that Sam has often projected his own feelings, desires, and failures onto Dean. But I know that there's a snowball's chance in hell of this happening, and even though it has been shown to us over and over again over the course of the series. Bah. I should know better than to hope for any kind of balance in any of the supposedly wonderful brotherly moments any more, but I can't help it. Thank God for the FF button, though; I used it a lot in this episode.

Crowley and Dean and Dean and Baby Darkness were the only watchable parts for me, and there wasn't enough of them for this fan. I'm thinking that the Baby has to grow into the Adult version of the Darkness and that she still has much to learn about everything, including the bond she has with Dean. And who knows, maybe that will help to save the human host that the Darkness hijacked as an innocent babe when it was released. But this could only happen if Dean remains connected to her in this sl.

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I'm so glad someone explained Bob, because I spent this whole thread wondering who the hell Bob was and how did I miss such an important character?

 

Mark Sheppard I love you, but you are way past your expiration date on this show. Dean should have knifed you. Or you should have atomized him like you threatened. The Dean/Crowley relationship has replaced Sam/Dean as the most dysfunctional on the show. Congrats, I guess. 

 

The angels can go now, unless Gabriel, Michael, and Lucy are coming back (with original actors, please). Although the actor who played Hannah did a good job of channeling the actress's mannerisms. But I'm so done with the angel crap. The torture was pointless and unoriginal. 

 

Miles definitely vary, because I didn't see it as laying it on very thick. Sam's story here lasted all of one and a half episodes and was shared with two other plots, one of which is obviously going to be more of an ongoing thing. Much of the saving happened offscreen, Sam obviously got some help here and whether inadvertent or not we don't know, the solving of the problem didn't really take all that much sacrifice or heroics (it involved a Holy Marshmallow (TM whoever brilliantly thought that up). How cheesy can you get?), and one person thanked him. So Sam gets a small, token "save some of the people who you caused to be infected while once again starting an apocalypse because you didn't think enough before acting" story. I personally think it was about time Sam got a win.

 

 

Same. I also liked Jared's work here. I think Sam has shifted to the younger brother/supporting role to Dean now and is content with it. Before it was a source of conflict, but that was also ego driven. I dunno, Sam seems different to me and in a good way. As far as the cure--seems pointless for him to be infected if he's going to be cured so quickly. But at least he wasn't tied up this time. 

 

I feel like Amara is Lilith 2.0 and I don't like it.  Also, do demons have a soul? I'm completely confused by canon here. If they do then why wouldn't Amara eat Crowley's asap? Or is she stupid because she's so young? Seems like the king of hell's soul would be extra special. Then again, I have no idea. 

 

I think I have to rewatch these two shows again, because I feel like I'm missing some things. Although I keep thinking in the back of my mind that this whole thing is leading up to a huge reset at the end of the season where Jessica is alive, Mom is alive, Sam is a lawyer, and Dean marries his fantasy girl. Only this time it's for reals and not a Djinn dream. 

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lthough I keep thinking in the back of my mind that this whole thing is leading up to a huge reset at the end of the season where Jessica is alive, Mom is alive, Sam is a lawyer, and Dean marries his fantasy girl. Only this time it's for reals and not a Djinn dream.

 

Holy crap. I will lose what few marbles I have left if the show actually ended that way.   I mean no no no, just that would be the literal worst thing this show will have ever done. Erase 10 years of the Wincesters' history rendering it all pointless and meaningless? Oh hell no.

 

Unless it's a reset from the end of s3 where Dean has died, never makes it out of Hell and he's relying on those dreams as a tool to survive torture. 

 

Or Dean dies and that's his version of Heaven. Then I could accept it.

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I feel like Amara is Lilith 2.0 and I don't like it.  Also, do demons have a soul? I'm completely confused by canon here. If they do then why wouldn't Amara eat Crowley's asap? Or is she stupid because she's so young? Seems like the king of hell's soul would be extra special. Then again, I have no idea. 

 

I don't think demons have souls here. I mean, they do, but they are basically black smoke. I don't think it has the same power a human soul does. That's my theory anyway. As far as canon, I believe the only time it's been directly mentioned is in the episode where they were at the supernatural auction in S8. Crowley bid his soul for the demon tablet and the God running the auction said he didn't have a soul. That doesn't mean they won't change their minds about this later, though.

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I thought Ruby said back in s3 that demons are humans who still have but they are twisted beyond their humanity. Dean kept his soul when he was demon!Dean but it was twisted beyond his humanity. I don't think that has changed here. 

 

Crowley said Jenna didn't have a soul but that was only after Baby!Amara entranced her.  I think Baby!/YoungGirl!Amara might not but be powerful enough at that point to eat a full on King of Hell level of twisted soul, but could eat a human soul. 

 

If Amara = The Darkness, I wonder if she/it had already eaten enough of Dean's soul to remain attached to him after he was cured of his demonity and the Mark.

Edited by catrox14
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Yeah, as far as I can remember, demons are corrupted souls. Which begs the question of, was Dean twisting into a demon himself when he was in Hell?

Baby Amara ate Jenna when she was alone with her. Crowley was never alone with her that we saw. Maybe, as a baby, Jenna was enough to fill her appetite? And as she grows, her appetite will, too?

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Which begs the question of, was Dean twisting into a demon himself when he was in Hell?

\

 

I'm thinking being raised from perdition and having being healed from near death a couple of other times by angels that he avoided that happening. I'm not sure he could have been Michael's chosen vessel if he had been a demon at all, even if they didn't use him in the end.

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