S02.E01: Waiting For Dutch

[Ottis]

Way too cutesy for me. Between the "Okay, thens" and the way the couple dealt with the dead body, and all the low-key, Fargo responses, it kept taking me out of the show. I liked the unique delivery from season one. Season 2 sounds almost like an SNL skit. Too much.

[ToastnBacon]

Way too cutesy for me. Between the "Okay, thens" and the way the couple dealt with the dead body, and all the low-key, Fargo responses, it kept taking me out of the show. I liked the unique delivery from season one. Season 2 sounds almost like an SNL skit. Too much.

I can understand where you are coming from with that comment, but it made me wonder if you are from that region of the country.

Are you?

I like that aspect of the show, and I think it was something that the Cohen Brothers had a lot of fun with in the 1996 movie.

They played with the idea of a very polite society on one level, that was just as brutal and cold as any other place on the planet.

I find that juxtaposition fascinating since I live in a region of the country known for its rudeness.

[annzeepark914]

I can understand where you are coming from with that comment, but it made me wonder if you are from that region of the country.

Are you?

I like that aspect of the show, and I think it was something that the Cohen Brothers had a lot of fun with in the 1996 movie.

They played with the idea of a very polite society on one level, that was just as brutal and cold as any other place on the planet.

I find that juxtaposition fascinating since I live in a region of the country known for its rudeness.

There's just something downright shocking about murder amidst "Minnesota nice".  Normally I wouldn't watch a show with such gore, but when it's mixed in with the cheery friendliness of those Northerners, well, gosh darn it I can't resist!  This is the only show my husband and I watch together.  Can't wait for Episode two tonight.

[albaniantv]

I do agree with those annoyed by the shallow, chirpy tone of the "OK thens," but otherwise think Fargo is maintaining a thrilling balance between the earnest tone that the Coens prefer for their considerations of human depravity and the demands of plot and character development for weekly television. I love the seesaw effect.

I miss Malvo the least and am delighted that he is not expected this season. Have not enjoyed BB Thornton characters since Slingblade, which was remarkable.

[Ottis]

I can understand where you are coming from with that comment, but it made me wonder if you are from that region of the country.

Are you?

I like that aspect of the show, and I think it was something that the Cohen Brothers had a lot of fun with in the 1996 movie.

They played with the idea of a very polite society on one level, that was just as brutal and cold as any other place on the planet.

I find that juxtaposition fascinating since I live in a region of the country known for its rudeness.

 

 

So ... you're in NY? I am a state away from ND. I get the juxtaposition, for me, it is a matter of degree. Fargo the movie, and Fargo season one, benefited from a good mix of niceness vs. evil and the contrast between the setting and the actions. Fargo season 2, episode 1, felt like someone said, "People seem to like that - let's add more!" It's almost parody. No one acts like Kirsten Dunst's character after she hit a guy and drove home. To hit him, pause, and then slowly drive off was funny and interesting (especially as shot from above). To arrive home with a body she thought was dead, bleeding inside her car, and make dinner ... what? I loved the way the two cops talked about the crime scene and interspersed comments about having a family dinner together. All the "OK, thens" at the butcher shop were over the top. 

 

Stuff like that.

 

I will say that no show conveys bitter cold and winter to me like Fargo does. Ugh. 

Edited October 20, 2015 by Ottis

[John Potts]

Well this was like one long H!ItG! moment for me. We had the former First Lady Martha Logan married to former XO of the Galactica Saul Tigh as the head of a Mafiaesque crime family, whose sons were Michael Weston and who looked like Peter Parker's brother (he wasn't: he was Kevin McCallister's brother, but I kept thinking it was Toby Maguire - oddly enough the one I didn't recognise was the former Mary Jane Watson!), investigated by the Night Owl whose friend was the former Nazi Todd! Though I did wonder why DB Russell didn't take a cast of the tyre treads and run it through one of their magic databases and get an address for the driver.

 

But aside from that, I did like this. OK, at times it was a little too "cutesy" for my tastes, though anyone who can drive with a dead(ish) body on their hood has all the hallmarks of a budding sociopath (and yes, it seems quite possible that she's been "playing away", which might explain her reluctance to have sex with her husband and then cover up a hit and run). But in Fargo, we know even decent, polite cops can crack the case eventually, so while Peggy Blomquist might be this Season's Lester Nygard, the long arm of justice will get her in the end (probably).

 

Candall The Northern Expansion Strategy booklet was funny and quickly set up the difference between that bunch and the Gerhardts

 

Kinda depressing to think that even in organised crime you still get Powerpoint (or their 70s equivilent) presentations! I guess that's the advantage of a mom & pop criminal family over a corporate one. I know which outfit I'd want to work in (you know, if I didn't have a problem with the intimidation and murder stuff).

[candall]

[...] I live in a region of the country known for its rudeness.

The thread's not current so maybe I can slip under the radar with some non-show talk. Toast, now you have to tell us where you're from!  Someone guessed NY, but I've spent tons of time in NYC and found the people crazy friendly and helpful with directions and subways and maps and so forth.

 

I was trying to think of "rude" parts of the country.  Los Angeles is the only place I've personally been shocked by the rudeness of total strangers.  I hear Mainers don't have any patience to spare for outsiders; I've recently learned--via Project Runway talk--that many San Franciscans evince a certain arrogance (because they don't produce trash?  Lol.)  I guess Boston and CT have a bit of a snooty rep.  I can't come up with anywhere else.

 

FWIW, people in Minnesota really are extraordinarily nice.  Every time I'm there, I'll have some little interaction with a sales clerk or some other stranger and come away thinking, "Wow, what was that all about?  Oh, right, I forgot, Minnesota nice."  

[MaryPatShelby]

I just caught up with the first two episodes, and it was my understanding that one could watch this season without having watched season 1, because it was basically a reboot and taking place in a different time.  I'm not sure that was a correct understanding, because there were a few things I didn't get.  Could someone please explain the significance of the Ronald Reagan war movie at the very beginning?

[John Potts]

MaryPatShelby, All I know is, Ronald Reagan turns up as a character - played by yet another H!ItG! Bruce Campbell (Ash Williams from Evil Dead, Sam Axe from Burn Notice and Autolycus from Xena), though what significance he has is unclear (well, to me - you could probably find out if you looked hard enough). It's probably a safe bet he doesn't die, though!

[shapeshifter]

They played with the idea of a very polite society on one level, that was just as brutal and cold as any other place on the planet.

I find that juxtaposition fascinating since I live in a region of the country known for its rudeness.

There's just something downright shocking about murder amidst "Minnesota nice".  Normally I wouldn't watch a show with such gore, but when it's mixed in with the cheery friendliness of those Northerners, well, gosh darn it I can't resist!

Me too. Does that mean we are being manipulated by a sociopathic television writer? Heh.

...I was trying to think of "rude" parts of the country.

A lot of Chicagoans can seem rude. I'm not sure if they are notorious for it, though.

FWIW, people in Minnesota really are extraordinarily nice.  Every time I'm there, I'll have some little interaction with a sales clerk or some other stranger and come away thinking, "Wow, what was that all about?  Oh, right, I forgot, Minnesota nice."

While at a rest stop in Iowa, while washing my hands and bemoaning aloud that my sleeves where sliding down and about to get wet, a woman with nothing but thoughtfulness oozing from her rolled them up for me. I guess Iowa isn't far from Minnesota.

I just caught up with the first two episodes, and it was my understanding that one could watch this season without having watched season 1, because it was basically a reboot and taking place in a different time.  I'm not sure that was a correct understanding, because there were a few things I didn't get.  Could someone please explain the significance of the Ronald Reagan war movie at the very beginning?

I assumed the Reagan reference was historically related and will have more significance as the season unfolds. Here's the Wikipedia section on his political life at that time: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan#1976_presidential_campaign

But if there's any reference to him in season one, I missed it.

[candall]

I just caught up with the first two episodes, and it was my understanding that one could watch this season without having watched season 1, because it was basically a reboot and taking place in a different time.  I'm not sure that was a correct understanding, because there were a few things I didn't get.  Could someone please explain the significance of the Ronald Reagan war movie at the very beginning?

No worries, MaryPat--no one else understands what Reagan's doing in this show either.  It's just one of the quirky things that may or may not become significant later in the season.

 

The little girl with the sick mother and the policeman father grew up to become the main law enforcement character featured in Season One, but I don't see any "carryback" relevance in her story.  The policeman father has a minor role in Season One.  He's retired, runs a diner, worries about and offers advice to his adult cop-daughter.  I think he might have referred to being shot "on the job." 

 

Otherwise, you're good to go.  I expected subtle references to the first season, but they don't seem to be doing that at all--just the two characters, who will later have reversed importance in crime solving.

[Dev F]

No worries, MaryPat--no one else understands what Reagan's doing in this show either.  It's just one of the quirky things that may or may not become significant later in the season.

 

At this point I figure the Reagan stuff is connected thematically rather than as a story point. In 1979 the country was looking for a way to escape the malaise of the Carter era and would soon embrace Reagan, so in that sense the nation was "waiting for Dutch" the same way the set of Massacre at Sioux Falls was.

 

Incidentally, I think the political references make it clear that this is more a mood portrait of an era than a lovingly precise recreation of a specific point in time a la Mad Men. The election season wasn't nearly as interminable thirty-five years ago, so there wouldn't actually have been any Reagan posters hanging around yet during the winter of 1978-79. And Carter was still months away from delivering his infamous "crisis of confidence" speech, though it's featured prominently in the opening montage.

 

The little girl with the sick mother and the policeman father grew up to become the main law enforcement character featured in Season One, but I don't see any "carryback" relevance in her story.  The policeman father has a minor role in Season One.  He's retired, runs a diner, worries about and offers advice to his adult cop-daughter.  I think he might have referred to being shot "on the job."

 

He did, but the shooting happened when Molly was older, so I don't think it's related to the season 2 story. More relevant are his comments when he meets Lorne Malvo, the devilish wanderer who serves as season 1's main villain:

 

"Had a case once, back in '79. I'd tell you the details, but it'd sound like I made 'em up. Madness, really."

"Bodies?"

"Yes sir. One after another. Probably, if you stacked 'em high, could've climbed to the second floor. Now, I saw something that year I ain't ever seen, before or since. I'd call it animal. Except animals only kill for food. This was Sioux Falls. Ever been?"

 

So the title of Reagan's film, Massacre at Sioux Falls, also presumably foreshadows the events to come later in season 2.

[ToastnBacon]

The thread's not current so maybe I can slip under the radar with some non-show talk. Toast, now you have to tell us where you're from!  Someone guessed NY, but I've spent tons of time in NYC and found the people crazy friendly and helpful with directions and subways and maps and so forth.

 

I was trying to think of "rude" parts of the country.  Los Angeles is the only place I've personally been shocked by the rudeness of total strangers.  I hear Mainers don't have any patience to spare for outsiders; I've recently learned--via Project Runway talk--that many San Franciscans evince a certain arrogance (because they don't produce trash?  Lol.)  I guess Boston and CT have a bit of a snooty rep.  I can't come up with anywhere else.

 

FWIW, people in Minnesota really are extraordinarily nice.  Every time I'm there, I'll have some little interaction with a sales clerk or some other stranger and come away thinking, "Wow, what was that all about?  Oh, right, I forgot, Minnesota nice."

I've been living in Maryland for a long time. While there are plenty of nice people here, I think we are rude. Especially when it comes to driving.

[annzeepark914]

I've been living in Maryland for a long time. While there are plenty of nice people here, I think we are rude. Especially when it comes to driving.

Boy oh boy...include northern VA in that rudeness-while-driving.  However, other than the driving, I think the folks in this area are pretty nice. But a few years ago, while visiting some people in Portland, OR, one of them mentioned that he found the people in this area very unfriendly. Wait a minute...now that I think about it, when I walk around our 'hood, there are some people who turn away so they don't have to say "hello". Hmmm...I wonder if that would happen in MN?  I'll have to try going for a walk next time we visit our daughter in Minneapolis.

[candall]

  I'll have to try going for a walk next time we visit our daughter in Minneapolis.

Take a basket in case you're not recognized and someone runs out with a casserole.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Further stretching the possible metaphor of Reagan...he is arguably most famous for his calling out the USSR as the "Evil Empire" and his foreign policy certainly reflected that worldview.  Here, we have an evil visiting (exploding?) smack dab in the middle of the heart of America.  Is it the case that Hawley is saying that evil is everywhere and to call out others is, itself, an evil?

[Inquisitionist]

IIRC, this is the "self-correcting" Selectric II, which came out in the 70s.

 

The IBM Selectric -- count me among those who remember how excited secretaries were to have this in the late 1970!

 

Question: What year was the first season of Fargo set? I'm trying to figure out Molly's age then compared to her six year old self in this season.

 

 

Season 1 was 2006 and Season 2 is 1979, as per Wikipedia.

 

I just started watching S1 recently.  The opening shots establish that it is set in 2006, and shortly thereafter, Molly says she is 31.  That would make her only 4 years old at the start of S2.

[A Boston Gal]

The IBM Selectric -- count me among those who remember how excited secretaries were to have this in the late 1970!

 

 

 

 

I just started watching S1 recently.  The opening shots establish that it is set in 2006, and shortly thereafter, Molly says she is 31.  That would make her only 4 years old at the start of S2.

I could have sworn she was referenced as 6 in the first episode. Do you think the show runners forgot about that quote made in Season One, or just didn't do the math? The child actress looks more like six than four, IMO.

 

Am I imagining things? :)

[Dev F]

I could have sworn she was referenced as 6 in the first episode. Do you think the show runners forgot about that quote made in Season One, or just didn't do the math? The child actress looks more like six than four, IMO.

 

Am I imagining things? :)

 

I assume it's a deliberate retcon, because a four-year-old actor would not be much fun to write for. I feel like you rarely see preschool-aged children on TV in roles other than "sitting around in the background doing something generic but adorable," because it's hard to get a more specific performance out of them than that. Hence the tendency on sitcoms to suddenly age up little kids from babies to kindergarteners.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Dev F

[Lonesome Rhodes]

I may be wrong about this, but I think I read a quote from Hawley about this and he acknowledged the issue.  He said they just went with the child actors they had (Did they cast before fully working out the age structure???) and trusted the audience would be able to suspend disbelief over a minor discrepancy having no real impact on the plot development.

[shapeshifter]

I may be wrong about this, but I think I read a quote from Hawley about this and he acknowledged the issue.  He said they just went with the child actors they had (Did they cast before fully working out the age structure???) and trusted the audience would be able to suspend disbelief over a minor discrepancy having no real impact on the plot development.

That does sound familiar to me too--like something I read last season.

[knaankos]

I have been wondering. What was the narrative purpose of having Lou and his father in law act so casual while looking at the dead bodies of 3 people? They were acting like there were looking at groceries in the grocery store the way they were talking about the dead. This is a small sleepy town, so it's not as if murders are common in Luverne, so they would not be so desensitized to it. Even if they personally are (from the war) it would still mean a big deal to the town so i would think they would show a bit more respect. Just the way they were so casual in conversation around the dead.... what was the purpose behind that? 

[fauntleroy]

Just the way they were so casual in conversation around the dead.... what was the purpose behind that? 

 

This seemed off to me too. I'm just catching up with this season. The other thing that struck me as extremely implausible was Ed's willingness to go along with Peggy's nonsense about the body. Nobody's that stupid. They could call the police and say Peggy was in shock when she drove home.

[Inquisitionist]

I assume it's a deliberate retcon, because a four-year-old actor would not be much fun to write for.

 

Must be the case, because in a late S1 episode, Lou refers to Molly being four when he sat on the porch keeping watch (which I assume is a reference to the events of S2).  It's a minor change that I can live with, except that a 6-year-old would remember a whole heck of a lot more than a 4-year-old would, and grownup Molly seemed pretty clueless about the past in S1.  We'll see just how much 6-year-old Molly is exposed to.

[Dev F]

Must be the case, because in a late S1 episode, Lou refers to Molly being four when he sat on the porch keeping watch (which I assume is a reference to the events of S2).

 

Yeah, he specifically says that it happened in the winter of 1979, so it's definitely a reference to the events of this season. And Molly mentions at another point that she's thirty-one years old in 2006, which would fit with her being four in 1979.

 

It's a minor change that I can live with, except that a 6-year-old would remember a whole heck of a lot more than a 4-year-old would, and grownup Molly seemed pretty clueless about the past in S1.  We'll see just how much 6-year-old Molly is exposed to.

 

I doubt that she'll be exposed to much of the mob war stuff, and I expect that whatever she is exposed to will be overshadowed by her mom passing away.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

In terms of Lou and his FIL not reacting with any sense of "excitement"...It could be a vestige of having seen so much of it in war.  Or, they could each be really down about Molly Mama.  

 

I totally agree it seems way off.  The bare reaction by all the various LE departments, in parallel to the indifference mentioned here, is ludicrous.

[AuntiePam]

I have been wondering. What was the narrative purpose of having Lou and his father in law act so casual while looking at the dead bodies of 3 people? 

 

I saw their manner as restrained, rather than casual.  The shock showed in their eyes.  I think Hank showed some upset when he and Lou were talking outside the diner, and he told Lou "I think you brought that war back with you."  No murders for years after WWII, until 1962?  I think that's what he said.  My impression was that violence wasn't rare anymore.

 

On rewatch I noticed that Betsy, Peggy, and Floyd all wore shirts with stripes.  Betsy's shirt (a twin set) had pastel stripes, Peggy's and Floyd's stripes were bright multi-colors.  Not accidental, but no idea what it might mean, except to hint that these women have at least one thing in common. 

[shapeshifter]

Or maybe stripes were in style then? They seem to become fashionable at least once every ten years.

[Inquisitionist]

Incidentally, I think the political references make it clear that this is more a mood portrait of an era than a lovingly precise recreation of a specific point in time a la Mad Men. The election season wasn't nearly as interminable thirty-five years ago, so there wouldn't actually have been any Reagan posters hanging around yet during the winter of 1978-79.

 

On rewatch, this season seems to be set in March, 1979.  Reagan didn't formally announce his candidacy until Nov. 1979, but he was drumming up support well before then -- though mainly through radio addresses.  So, yeah, he probably wasn't on a bus tour of MN/SD at the time of this season, any more than he appeared in the movies depicted, but wow, what excellent tie-ins both are!

[John Potts]

AuntiePam he told Lou "I think you brought that war back with you."  No murders for years after WWII, until 1962?

 

 

I'm pretty sure by "the war" he meant Vietnam - and the last US troops (other than POWs) left in 1973 - a mere 6 years before this episode is set.

[cpcathy]

Exactly. He meant they hadn't had that sort of crime until after Vietnam.

[AuntiePam]

I got that.  What I didn't get was Hank basically saying that from the end of WWII until 1962, there were no murders.  That's 17 years without violent crime.

[shapeshifter]

I got that.  What I didn't get was Hank basically saying that from the end of WWII until 1962, there were no murders.  That's 17 years without violent crime.

Without knowing the exact crime stats for that area and era, it sounded right to me. When I was a young child in the 50s and 60s, we were allowed to run free (not that it was always wise on the part of my mother), but my mom freaked out whenever my little daughter--born in 1979--was left unattended for a moment. Times had changed.

[AuntiePam]

shapeshifter, I think you're right.  I don't know what changed.  The drug epidemic, maybe?  Crack and meth? 

[Inquisitionist]

Things did change (they always do), but to me, Hank's statement also had a whiff of old-man exaggeration to it.

[AuntiePam]

Yeah, us old farts will always insist things were better in the good old days. :) 

[Inquisitionist]

Ha-ha, I'm right there with ya in the old fart demographic, so I know from whence I speak.  ;-)

[Ohwell]

I like to refer to myself as a fartess.  

[shapeshifter]

I like to refer to myself as a fartess.

Now I want to be "Fartess of" Some Place, but I'm not sure what. "Fartess of Cheshire" sounds good.

Back on topic: Floyd made references to the good old days of crime business, didn't she? She was sort of the Bizzaro version of Hank.

[Inquisitionist]

Back on topic: Floyd made references to the good old days of crime business, didn't she? She was sort of the Bizzaro version of Hank.

 

Fargo: Taking Nostalgia to New Places

[Kel Varnsen]

Pretty late to things but just started on season 2 and it seems pretty good so far. Kind of glad they killed off Kieran Culkin though since my kids love the Home Alone movies and jokes about Fuller wetting the bed are really funny to them. So if he was around every episode I would keep seeing that.

Great cast again though. I hope Cristin Milioti survives the season since I really like her.

Also a cool thing I noticed was Lou practicing tying knots before bed in this episode. He was doing the same thing on the porch with the shotgun when protecting Greta.

[Inquisitionist]

Using my free month of Hulu to rewatch my favorite season of Fargo. Damn, the season 2 opener was rip-roaring!